I dont ever rewind during these types of things but the last 4 minutes became hype as fhck with the music and analogies explaining maneuvers and tactics. Shit made me wanna play halo right then and there.
Wow. Seriously, this is a very enlightening video. I've seen so many talks on forums about 'gameplay mechanics' and 'abilities' and suchlike, but I never thought about Halo combat as a dance, nor did I think that it linked all the games in such a way. Now I'm looking to see what other things link the games as such. I also love how impartial and analytical you are. It is a welcome change from the bias that pervades the different sides of the fandoms, and I can't wait for more of these videos! :)
You're one of the 3 good halo content creators. There's you, Late Night Gaming, and probably one other guy I don't know about but I'm willing to admit he probably exists.
I dunno, Late Night Gaming says Halo "never was" an arena fps and it's hard to take him seriously when he gets basic, Google-able facts about his supposed favorite franchise wrong.
I really like your idea, it almost underlies the arguments other people have with regards to what does and doesn’t work in Halo because when you look at what they’re saying they tend to like development of this basic idea you are talking about and dislike additions that change how it works. Very cool
This dance exists in nearly every FPS arena game to some extent, but it's the specific interpretation of the relatively high TTK combined with the high engagement mobility/low general movement capability that sets Halo apart from boots-on-ground shooters that are slow to move and rely on who shoots first and from movement-centric shooters like Titanfall where the ability to get from one side of the map in two seconds flat plays a significant role in each engagement. Halo is a movement shooter for people who don't like movement shooters.
Absolutely amazing, I never realized any of this before, the dance was always there. I agree that the dance is the true design philosophy, and as long as halo sticks with it, they can't go wrong.
This is why I enjoy halo Because I've known the dance since my ce days I'm so familiar with the combat and I'm so used to the gunplay I know that I can turn a fight on its head and not any other shooter gives me the empowering feeling of my split second decisions being able to turn the odds from against me to in my favor. The factor alone that the fight can also turn against me when i have the advantage is what makes me keep coming back. The dance is the reason why I enjoy each halo game. At its core, halos combat will always stay the same *but the combat continues to evolve*
That's what's truly great about Halo, is that it's not a mindless shooter. Whether fighting other players or AI, the game is intrinsically based on the player's decision making deciding whether that player won or lost a specific fight. And that part you said at the end about how Halo's Combat Evolves gave me chills. A lot of people talk about how CE's name is stupid but in all reality Combat Evolved is not just a dumb tagline, it is the definition of the series itself.
The one song that starts in halo 3s first mission called "Another walk" emphasizes on Halo's movement speed being a fast paced walk and chief fights like he is in a dance.
this might be the greatest video I've ever seen 😂 you've synthesized and articulated what, I think, a lot of long-time Halo players have "known" but been unable to express in any real way. well done!
@@WarpSonic Sure; there are lots of fun things that aren't "core Halo". But I question whether those things will ever be as good in Halo as they can be in a game that focuses on them.
I would also add: the two weapon system (a big differentiator from it's shooter predecessors: half life, doom, and quake) weapon choice is super important, additionally: halo has traditionally focused it's gun play around orthogonal unit differentiation: each gun operates in an effective role. Bungie even mentioned this in a vidoc that it's hard to add guns without stepping on another gun's useful area. This also means if you see someone with a shotgun, or a sniper you have a good idea of how they're going to play. It allows for meaningful choices and planning on the player's part. Finally, the original 3 game"s multiplayer design revolved around power weapons. This was a tool that allowed good teams to consistently win if they understood the map and did a good job of controlling it. Just my .02 cents
Well yeah, each FPS Halo game follows this design logic, but modern Halo titles gave more power to the movement part of the dance, which is why a lot of people tend to dislike those later games. In the original trilogy, the dance was decently well balanced, but once more movement options were given to players, movement was given more prominence, and the dance was thrown off balance from what people expect. You could argue all shooters have their own dance (as they all have combat, movement, and health), but the balance of those 3 elements in the original trilogy are different from what Reach-5 were.
So, a couple of the typical issues in this comment. First, the assertion that people don't like higher mobility is down to subjective opinion. In the same way you could get someone to say they don't like, you could get someone to say they do. You could even flip the coin and get those who DISLIKE lower mobility and so on. (See the part about weaponized analysis) Two, You're asserting The Dance is thrown off balance but by what reason? Are you still strafing? Are you still using the golden triangle? Are fights still varied in length? Are jumps and crouches still key? You're trying to view The Dance as though it's limited to one or two titles. The best part about it is that it's transitive. It isnt defined by, or contained by one or two games. Each game has a mutation of The Dance. There was never a singular version. Third, I could give you a whole video about how each title modifies The Dance, down to each cornerstone. Difference is not exclusive to HR-H5. But that isnt the point. The point is to highlight and describe how the cornerstones of The Dance not only appear in each title, they do so all while retaining their value while allowing for variation.
@@AscendHyperion I think you're misinterpreting my comment a bit. All I was saying is that every Halo game has the Dance, but different games lean into different aspects of the Dance more than others. The classic trilogy were all fairly similar, while HR-5 naturally leaned more into the movement aspect of the Dance, due to Spartan abilities, sprint, armor abilities, etc. Yes, you're still jumping, strafing, etc, but you can't deny things like sprint, the jetpack, thrust, slide, and so on can substantially alter the balance more in favor of movement. Not saying that's a bad thing, but there's a reason why some Halo fans favor the games with a smaller focus on movement, and why others favor greater movement.
Oh well yeah I 100% agree. Enhanced mobility does really morph the Movement cornerstone quite a bit. I was reading your comment as you saying that morph was inherently negative. That I would contest because liking one thing vs the other is subjective. I dunno if there is a "favor" towards movement per say. Weight might be a better word.
@You're fake and gay Jetpack was extremely useful to gain higher ground, and made it borderline essential on some maps, camo's meh, but I much prefer it as a map pickup, and armor lock is hella annoying. In team games, if an opponent armor locks, there's a good chance their teammate(s) will come around and finish you off while they stay safe, and in FFA, a similar situation happens where another opponent will finish you off if you're fighting someone and they armor lock. That's not even counting how unfun it could make BTB matches be.
I think you missed the point of the video , it’s the fact that every halo does have the dance, the variations of the dance don’t really matter, yes people prefer pre halo reach gameplay but I think a lot of those people are just stubborn and unwilling to learn new mechanics, it is easy to write spartan abilities off as useless but that really isn’t true. Spartan abilities just added even more mechanics to the dance and these abilities have influenced so many games afterwards. I think classic halo fans are just unwilling to learn or use new mechanics in the the games after halo 3 which leads them to not get the full experience and enjoyment of those multiplayers.
Halo 3 and below is a simple tapdance. Simple, efficient but still fun. Halo Reach and forward are a full ballet routine mixed with some hip-hop. Neither are bad, just different.
Between this and the Gungoose video I've finally decided to subscribe. ---------------------------- I've always enjoyed the Halo series, but it wasn't until recently that I decided that it truely is my all time favorite shooter franchise. Prior to this I spent four years playing Overwatch and managed to climb to Master rank but it just wasn't fun. One of my biggest issues with the game is that some characters are more fun to play than others and if you want to play a character you like you have to either be a god tier player with them or you have to be willing to put up with your teammates hatred if you refuse to switch and can't meet their unrealistic expectations. Halo is different though. In Halo there is only one character to play, but that character is insanely fun to use no matter what position you are in or what weapon you are using. It doesn't matter if you're sitting in base puppy guarding the flag or if you're running on the front lines trying to get the flag in the first place, Halo is always fun. Win or lose, rain or shine, the game feels great to play and thats something you don't get with character/class based games like League or Overwatch.
This might be the best put explanation for why I enjoy all of the Halos and have a very hard time picking my least favorite or most favorite. Except 5, which I can't speak to because I haven't played it
you really should play halo 5 it has some of the best gameplay of any of the halo's in my opinion. the stuff the game lets you do with its enhanced movement is amazing it allows for so much more active use of weapons that normally get a bit shafted by things like the br. also this is probably just a me thing i like that in the campaign the enemies were a bit more gameified, they gave the prometheans weakpoints and stuff which made them far less of a giant bullet soak and stuff on legendary if you could hit the right spot. the campaign was a bit hit or miss for some people i liked it and i mean it's all adding up to inifinite, i just wish they put halo 5 on pc with the rest of the games
Absolutely loved this video, so refreshing to see someone point out that even though Halo has evolved its core has not changed. I also never knew I was looking for and engaging in the Dance until it was pointed out. Very informative and enjoyable!
This is why I like Halo 5 it has turned the dance into rapid tap dancing. I love it, it's chaotic and insane. Can't wait for Halo Infinite. Great video!
@@SiphonRayzar I can understand that, it can be a bit sweaty at times, but I think it would be a waste to throw away such great mechanics. Actually even I am finding Halo 4 a bit too fast too these days in MCC.
I've always been a fan of mobility meta, which is why Halo 5's gameplay sandbox wasn't something I hated. I can respect people who believe the mobility pillar of the dance should be default at less mobile than H5, and honestly they're probably right, but it's not something that bothers me.
This is one of the most beautiful halo analysis videos ive ever seen. Why is this buried underneath so many hours of thirsty infinite news coverage and pure vitriol over how fast the master chief runs. This video should be what halo analysis content looks up to
I just wanna point out that hype ass revelation section about the dance being in every game is accompanied by Halo 5 music. Not Halo 3. Halo 5. Big brain.
@@heftymagic4814 Oh, I meant that the part where Ascend talks about the "dance" has Halo 5 music, not H3. The dance is definitely to be found in every game :)
I’d agree with the last part more if mechanics like dash and sprint didn’t directly affect player agency during “the dance”. Your ability to turn the tides of any battle is crippled greatly if someone who is exposed at a range can easily sprint into cover before they die, or if they can avoid the effective range of your grenade by just dashing/running into another direction. Halo 5 is fun and all, but you get way less of those “turning the tides by outsmarting your opponent” moments simply because the stakes of any given action are lowered by the fact that now you have all these movement mechanics at your disposal. Play a match of halo 3 and halo 5 and you’ll see what I mean: Halo 5 encourages more aggressive, risky plays that would NEVER work out so well in any of bungie’s games, because it allows you to slither your way out of unfavorable odds and not-so-stupid decisions. That’s the main problem, because you can just use movement mechanics to get out of dicy situations in Halo 5, and the overall grasp of actions on the tide of a battle is weakened both ways due to it, your aren’t as encouraged to use your wit in the same way you would in a bungie game. I’m also tired of people complaining about sprint, but we shouldn’t just ignore how greatly it affects “the dance”.
How I know you actually play Halo and don't just have "a few memories with a few friends playing in their couch": You understand situational gameplay mechanics that define Halo, you mention each component had a symbiotic relationship that doesn't change with title, and above all else, you understand that a player "good at Halo" isn't limited to one title. Sure, one title may favor them with the tricks that title poses, but "good at Halo" really just is an end-all term. A pro player, for example, can compete in any of the Halo games and hit pro status, assuming their team is good. Their individual skill is STILL top notch in any of those games, and translating between each title isn't a chore, it's more like learning manual from one car to another. It's the same thing, just slightly different. As for the other Tubers who mention the triangle, this is possibly the most correct topic there is on it. Using it to state "this is why Halo 3 is the best" is sort of misleading. Halo 2 disrupts from the original (to those people) triangle, so does H3 verses H2. And so on. They're missing the other portions which play a role, and that's what you highlighted. I do personally not like 4, but 5 is a good title. I just think they dumbed-down 5. I hate hitmarkers, the extreme amount of assists, and all that jazz. Here's to hoping Infinite is a title that can unite a fractured community.
You’re totally correct, but also totally wrong? “The dance” as you define it is what makes Halo, Halo. For sure. But implying that the later titles with faster ttk, separation from top movement speed and the golden triangle, worse maps that aren’t fun to traverse, shit weapons that lead to flowchart decisionmaking, clamber leading to overly forgiving verticality, and so much more aren’t effecting “the dance”. It’s nice to bring a message of unity, but 343lo is unacceptable and NOT cut from the same cloth. At this point, all you can say is “it has weapons, melee, grenades, movement and health” but when all of those things are thrown out of wack… it ain’t it, chief.
I was expecting that someone was going to make this video someday, i wasn't able to explain to a lot of people how Halo still feels like Halo and that's why i play it despite enhanced mobility and new things in general, there is nothing in the market that plays like Halo.
It's an unfortunate trend in Halo where people will obsess over change to the point where recognizing and acknowledging what really ties Halo together is the road less traveled. Here's to changing that!
@@heftymagic4814 sure if you ignore how none of their changes to the formula ever broke the core gameplay like bungie did. Art style isn't the only thing that defines the series, and if it is, Bungie is an equal violators that regard when moving from CE to 2. Don't BS me when you don't know what you're talking about.
I like halo's movement. It's a nice change of pace from the bunny hopping and running around that I'm used to. I don't prefer it, but it's a nice to have a change of pace every once in a while.
If the dance is what defines halos gameplay then it can be extrapolated which games have a more intuitive dance. There is also vehicle gameplay as another part of this dance. Looking at the small intricacies of each game. Weapon balance, map design to accommodate the flow of that games dance, etc then we can see where the dance falters.
So, to clarify, "The Dance' is best understand as a foundational piece, or a shape piece, onto which additional and different mechanics and features are attachable/insert-able. Even between Halo CE and Halo 2, you can observe BIG changes in the GT, Movement and Health cornerstones. I even acknowledged several of the ways different titles affect the components of "The Dance" in this video. The beauty and strength in the logic of "The Dance" is that is allows for variation BY DESIGN. You can think about it as margin for error/growth depending on you life view haha. It naturally accommodates changes while retaining a similar shape, especially at the core. To call it a falter is a misunderstanding of the logic. Core symbiosis on mechanics is retained, The Dance is functioning as intended. EDIT: You are very correct in acknowledging vehicles and their own influence. I'm not neglecting them just cause. But because they require a breakdown our their own system and then that systems RELATION to everything else. TLDR: Video too big haha.
Ascend Hyperion I perceive Vehicles as falling into a shared space between Weapons, Grenades (or Explosives), Melee, and Mobility. Vehicles are essentially “Weapons”. Some may contain “Explosive” destructive capabilities or allow for it. I believe all of them can be used to splatter opponents as a form of CQC similar to what “Melee” provides. They all inherently include a “Mobility” component. Heck, even the Equipment or “Abilities” manage to fall into the shared space within the foundational combat Tetrahedron or “Dance”.
I don't see why there is so much opposition to armor abilities and equipment that actually fits the lore/cannon of the Halo universe that has been established since before CE even was released (The Fall of Reach novel). Yes it changes the gameplay a little but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. I haven't played halo 5 yet but I have only seen 1 place in MCC where you actually have to use a jet pack and that is a very small part of the campaign on Reach. Sprint is also completely optional in Halo 4. However I have also seen players use plasma grenades and rocket launchers in place of jet packs and sprint in Halo 1-3 to launch themselves across the map for a quick kill or to evade a group of enemies. Also Halo has a different game balance than most other FPS games with longer time to kill and often having the ability to counter opponents that get the initial jump on you, enhanced mobility, armor abilities, or equipment, are meant to make players have more control and increase complexity as well as rewarding skill mastery for something other than fast reaction times and headshots. If there is too much focus on limiting gameplay to the "golden triangle" then what you will have is basically COD with extra health and different maps/cosmetics instead of Halo. Also "the dance" is slightly different in each halo title as the game mechanics were tweaked to try to achieve a better balanced game and move forward with better game console technology but after a few minutes of playing it has always been easy to adjust to with the exception of CE for me, the gameplay on CE feels really strange and and floaty and at times unresponsive compared to the other games but I am certain that was due to limitations of the game console technology at the time it was made.
Dude this is such an incredible analysis. Love it. One thing I’d like to add to ‘The Dance’ is player cooperation. With the high health mechanic, movement and weapons, the way that teams engage one another is a deciding factor in who wins and who loses. Cluster together? Increase your firepower but vulnerable to AOE. Flank? Risk getting team-shot by clustered opponents. Protect your teammate while he obtains new tools for the weapon triangle - or drop a bubble shield for your buddy to recharge. Cooperation is key in Halo, especially in high-level play.
I love this idea of how refined Halo is if you take a moment to look past the normal gameplay but it makes me wonder, how will the increased presence of equipment impact Halo infinite? It has more usability and prevalence than it ever did in 3 or even reach so, chances are it will drastically modify the very idea of the dance. If the dance defines Halo, will Infinite be Halo? Still super excited about infinite though, change isn't always bad!
Combos should kill the fastest, BUT that does NOT mean a weapon shouldn't be able to kill on its own. Remember that the golden triangle is the methods of attack, not its own method of attack. Too many people believe that players should be forced to use combos and that only precision weapons should do decent damage.
Great vid. That should shut up the Halo 5 haters for a while. Watching this and comparing to my experience in Splitgate, it kinda has a similar "dance" that's different but still has a lot of similar aspects.
This. Halo content creators think that Halo is the only shooter or something. I've even had Late Night Gaming tell me that Halo "never was" an arena fps, but instead a party game.
I try over and over again to explain to my friends why halo is more complex than most shooters. They think battle royals and cod are so good. While in halo a single jump has more to it than cod has for example. I'm glad I came across this video
Makes me wonder why the ttk hasn’t gone down, even in Infinite. Titanfall titan fights and OverWatch tanks are probably the only comparable games in terms of prolonged fights, but those seem a lot slower and clunkier, rather than evasion prolonging as well.
I think this is a decent video, however I think you oversimplify and brush over a lot in order to come to the intended conclusion that all 7 games have the same core formula and that nothing in them interferes with it. Most obvious example of something that directly interferes with this dance is armor lock, to use the more specific analogy it directly alters the damage golden triangle, health, and movement all at once and in drastic ways. To be more broad, if the dance really is a formula coming from an interaction between damage methods, movement, and health, then it seems natural to say that changes to any of these will affect the overall formula. Yeah it's still *a* dance, but it's a different dance, sometimes only slightly different and other times dramatically so. Also this analysis only covers the moment to moment gameplay. I'd argue things like vehicles or map control are almost as core to Halo as the moment to moment fights if not equally important, and these things exist totally outside this dance framework and have also been heavily affected and altered over time.
@@MonteMind I know, I'm saying that the "core" of Halo is more than that, the specific examples I gave are vehicles and weapon/map control. Yeah he only talks about those three things, but what the video is truly about is "Halo's True Design Logic" right there in the title, pointing out something that is included in that but wasn't touched on in the video is a reasonable point I think.
The dance is designed to always give each player a fighting chance at winning the duel. got shot first? throw a well aimed nade and boom now you got health advantage, or strafe a corner and use it as cover. Hell even crouching to remove yourself from the radar to get a ninja works wonders as well! But nothing gives you a more satisfying "Hell yeah" then when you deflect a rocket with a gravity hammer. Thats a great example cuz if you are good enough to time your swing, the other guys "one shot kill weapon" is now useless :) great video, very educational.
I'm typing a review of Doom Eternal right now and I couldn't help but compare it to Halo's dance. The game even has its own golden triangle, but with farming pickups like ammo, armor, and health off of enemies. Chainsaw for ammo, flamethrower for armor, and executions for health. And those three are essential for surviving in that game.
I won't deny that I dislike the newer Halo games (though I will give a shoutout to 5 for what I consider the most balanced sandbox since CE... before the big nerfs anyway.) Still, I enjoyed your video a lot - objective and easy to follow. I do still believe those videos you alluded to missing the big picture still have a purpose though - if you just focused on the big picture of "the dance" you'd miss the smaller details of how its implementation differs between the games (and how that affects player enjoyment.) And that I do believe is worth debating over exactly because it's always been a contentious topic even before Reach.
You were looking at the wrong CoD to compare to Halo 5. CoD AW’s super jump sent you higher and further with the use of boosters than Halo 5’s from what I’ve been able to see.
Honestly map control could be the forth part of the diamond instead of a triangle but i guess thats more movement ot power weapons. Yeah anyways map/area control is very important not just in halo but a lot of games but halo especially do to power ups vehicles and power weapons. Like if you get the energy sword and shotgun you where king of CQC. I recall being so good with it in fact i made people rage quit because it took forever or at least till they both ran out of ammo an charge to kill me. ahhhh good times.
Movement, stack (damage input, if you will) and damage output are at the core of every action game, not even just shooters. I also think the golden triangle, while an important observation, doesn't do much to really describe Halo. Practically every FPS has a melee button or a permanently available melee weapon like the knife in CS. You spawn with grenades that you throw with a dedicated button in many shooters. There is also a blurry distinction at best between grenades and other projectile weapons. So COD and Battlefield arguably feature the same "golden triangle" so what does it say about Halo? Barely anything. Every Halo needs it but having it doesn't make a game Halo. The relationships and distinctions you present are all important and valid, but they barely scratch the surface of how shooters work, let alone tell us much about Halo. Even the notion that the (average) time to kill is higher in Halo than other FPS is hardly true since Halo CE has a much shorter TTK than later Halos, and since Halo 2's button combos cut fights between high level players similarly short. Having said all that, most people's idea of true Halo is closest to Halo 3 and I am one of those people. Halo 3 seems to be the most complete, robust realization of what Bungie wanted Halo CE and 2 to play like all along. After all they didn't account for the glitches and for tricks extremely high skill players would come up with when they balanced those games. You can like the results on their own merits but neither CE nor 2 are (at a high level of competition) what Halo ever was to normal players or to the developers. In absence of a large technical vocabulary to nail exactly what Halo 1-3 were all about the pragmatic way to define true Halo multiplayer is simply "Halo 3". This definition is not ideal but it's useful unlike any anti-intellectual attempts to water everything down to relativity and meaninglessness by Halo Reach - 5 apologists whose implicit definition of Halo is any FPS that has Microsoft's blessing to use the name. They're happy with any changes as long as they adhere to genre conventions. They actually believe an argument to support the addition of new features like sprinting is that other games have it! Really think about this for a moment. Halo Reach - 5 apologists are implicitly in favor of Halo losing its identity / never getting it back. They WANT Halo to be like any other game out there. This makes the split in the community permanent. A compromise only works between factions with a common goal. Despite a surface level allegiance to "Halo" there is actually no such common goal between people who want real Halo back and people who don't. Trying to unite the old and new cores is futile. Keep this in mind, no matter if you prefer classic Halo or the taste of a marketing exec's boot.
This is exactly why I strongly disagree with the argument that Halo 4 “is a good game, but not a good Halo game.” Like, okay, custom loadouts and ordnance drops conflict with the philosophies of same starts and map control, but the dance is just as present in Halo 4 as it is in Halo 3. Above the sandbox, above the art style, the dance is what makes Halo, Halo.
Ok I'm gonna come clean with you here I did not like the DMR in Reach because: A: You almost always spawn with it. That's boring and it makes AR's, Plasma Rifles and Plasma Repeaters basically useless. B: It makes close range combat (one of Halo's biggest strengths gameplay wise) much less prevalent. C: Makes every vehicle much less useful, especially ones with little driverseat defense. It sucks to get into a falcon and then get peppered by constantly respawning DMR users. It should be that you get to rain hell down until someone on the other team finds a sniper or rocket launcher and saves them all from you. Also, why would you go for a cool carjack when you could just shoot the guy out of the drivers seat? D: Spending 78% of your gameplay scoped in is not very cool. It sucks. E: Scope camping is way easier if you don't have to look for a scoped weapon (I would prefer if all players played 'Halo' and not 'click on heads simulator 2011')
Except that you fail to mention the original dance was an already balanced formula. Altering the movement ascpect of the "dance triangle" has weighted and warped the entire trigangle Into something that doesn't quite upholds bungies balance. You are extremely undermining the effect that small changes can have on the identity of complex systems. Nuance is not to be take lightly my dear friend. A tablespoon more of salt can ruin even the most well designed recipes.
I agree with you, but I think nuance is thrown out the window when a certain element of Halo's gameplay is given obnoxiously more power than the others, i.e movement, as seen in the modern Halo games. I kept thinking to myself throughout the video how this core philosophy regarding Halo's signature gameplay was really narrowed and honed by the original 3 games, and how it was clearly obvious that abilities such as sprint and clamber ruin that balance and also bastardise the rest of the game in order to accommodate them; if movement is made more powerful, weapons have to become more powerful (the entirety of H5's sandbox was designed around dealing with advanced mobility, with heavy bullet magnetism and ADS on every weapon). Similarly, many surrounding game design philosophies that facilitate and bring the best out of "the dance", such as having no separation between it's various elements of movement, combat and health and innovating through the sandbox rather than base player traits, were waved-off as misconceptions surrounding the golden triangle philosophy in a way that felt pretty disingenuous.
I think what people miss is there is a big difference in movement between CE to 2 and 3, CE feels fast while 2 and 3 makes you feel like a tank, funny enough I used to be one of the people who hated 4 at one point (feel like I was a bit manipulated by all these UA-camrs and all that a bit) but after going back, I actually can't stand how sluggish 2 and 3 to me now and now 4 is my favorite, I reckon just cause bungie did it shouldn't make it absolutely, plus they changed it themselves and never were good at balancing weapons in the sense every weapon is useful, Bungies first trilogy is actually horrible in that regard cause each game had a precision weapon that was unmatched and the entire game may as well just be you using that one gun such as the magnum in CE, BR in 2 and 3, DMR in Reach, I'd give 343 credit cause at least with their games they had better weapon balancing, though I'm not a fan of everything they have done I can't say that bungie was the be all and end all for making a definitive halo experience cause even they thought they needed to change what they did and 343 being made up of ex bungie staff proves that they were always wanting to evolve the series in that way disregarding how good or bad you might of thought it all was
@@SSStevie halo 4 makes you feel like a small marine though. I like it's base movement, but not the fact that adding sprint stretched the map to the point where spartans are these tiny little elves now.
@@jackcolson4745 that is literally the best explanation I have ever seen for how 4 feels, i understand that, it needs a bit of weight, I feel like the only one I really got that in was reach and 5, let's hope infinite is even better
@@SSStevie I am glad that you understand what I mean. But I put halo 5 and reach with halo 4 in that category. They all have the trend of smaller player models, but faster movement causing stretched maps. The scale I want halo to go back to, is the halo 2 scale. That I feel, is where the stark contrast of scale is.
Love your video. U are right about what you said but a game still has to feel like halo. 5 did not cuz everyone was constantly boosting around and felt out of place. New additions added like armor abilities gadgets sprint and gun mods were not implemented the best but still feel like halo
Mostly agree. I’ve long believed that the “Golden Triangle” has always actually been an Tetrahedron in that the three combat components are each tied to mobility. Then on top of that you have the health system which incorporates a shielding component as well as a player health meter. There have been tweaks made to the overall health system per the title, but they’ve all managed to follow a similar basic concept that allows for extended combat encounters compared to most other FPS titles. This is primarily because of the shield system and the head damage multiplier of unshielded players. Your method of explanation is quite similar to my own belief. Now, I wouldn’t go so far as to suggest that each title has done a faithful job at upholding to the core principles, as I perceive them. And, to be clear, this isn’t a complaint about the inclusion of Sprint. In fact, I think the evolution of the Sprint mechanic has found a rightful and excellent place within the core design principle of Halo’s Mobility. The H5 design has done well to address the real issue that related to escape-ability. No, my issue has been with titles that ventured into unbalanced starts for Arena gameplay. Now, allowing for unbalanced starts in particular social environments is a different story because the mode and its environment should allow for expansion, or even some outright deviations, from Halo’s foundational principles of design. This can allow Halo to find new ways to capture consumer interest. Another such issue I have is with titles that expanded the amount of random variance within its gunplay and gameplay to lessen the control a player has over winning combat encounters. The sizeable amount of bloom in Halo Reach comes to mind; especially, pre-TU. And the random map Ordnance Drops in Halo 4 come to mind too; although, within a social environment it doesn’t present the same problem. Finally, particular Equipment or Ability tools which directly contend with the basic combat flow of Halo’s foundational Tetrahedron or “Dance” - as you describe it. The worst offender of this, IMO, has been Halo Reach’s Armor Lock (AA) which outright suspended combat for a period of time; especially, in its pre-TU version. To me, there are foundational principles even within the overall foundational principles that you’ve highlighted. Now, I’m sure this is the same argument many could use to point out their subjective issues with particular evolutions within the Tetrahedron or Dance, but I really try to stay grounded and objective on the matter as I apply it. Nevertheless, in the end, it’ll always remain a perception issue within the community that’s often tainted by personal subjectivity.
I can appreciate the acknowledgement of how different titles have different facets that affect our gameplay experience.When I present the idea of The Dance, it's more so as a foundation, or basis of Halo, onto which modifications can be found or attached. So without a doubt, if you alter that foundation to a degree or attach things to it you will get variation in initial shape. But despite these modifications and additions, I think it is observable that base level, even up several levels of gameplay, still maintain that core image.
Ascend Hyperion It is possible to ‘break’ one of the key aspects, however. Jet Pack is a prime example. As a forger in Halo: Reach, designing around jet pack is a massive pain because hard and soft routes no longer matter to them. Attaining power positions simply requires the tap of a button. In such a way, Jet Pack breaks the mobility aspect of the dance. It removes the necessity for a player to think about how they want to move, and oversimplifies it (want to go there? Just fly there!). This is not as big a problem in Halo 4, where the Jet Pack was massively nerfed, but in Halo Reach the Jet Pack completely breaks map flow and movement strategy.
@@johnnyboy5135 destinys got health, movement and the golden triangle. But the golden triangle now includes abilities like supers, grenade, and melee. Guns have different perks, and different stats affect amount of health and recovery of health. Movement is different from different classes eg. Warlock = glide, hunter = jumps etc. So yes Destiny has the dance too just a mutated version of the dance with all the inclusions of perks, and abilities.
You said you did a lot of research when making this video, assuming that you had read articles or videos my the developers or messaged them about it but I don't see it so it feels more of a take away observation then anything else. Personally I feel there are 3 triangles, one that everyone misses, especially this video, and that is the rock, paper, scissors of vehicles when added to the mix. Also this logic is beaten, when by itself, just by SWAT, since everyone can insta-die from a headshot easily but there is still a golden triangle. But also this video misses how advance movement while affecting the movement/strafe real does hurt the gameplay. When you move slower running and need to sprint to get around the map at the same time to traverse, you have now affected not just the golden triangle but even the dance logic. Halo 4/5, and possible Halo Infinite, looking at the run/jump it feels lessened. You aren't as floaty as classic and able to jump higher and move faster so you start becoming a snail. And when you have to sacrifice shoot to move forced situations it also hinders that. When I can no longer jump to heights I would normally in Halo 3 do but in Halo 5 my spartan is too punny to jump to, I have to resort to clamber, because even crouch jumping is lessened so you HAVE to relay on it. I'm not "keep everything classic movement mechanics" only, as I feel their are ways to evolves Halo 3 that I feel was at it's high the best competitive play with dance logic and golden triangle but you can evolve it into an even more fun and engaging way without limiting players to feel slower by not able to move as much or jump as high to sacrifice more golden triangle for more motion/movement from the dance logic, thus throwing off weight balance of the dance triangle and making power weapons even stronger and harder to combat. And again, vehicle golden triangle is even more forgotten in Halo. And Halo 4 did the worst in making that unbalanced giving everyone the PP power weapon to spawn with.
I didn't forget vehicles in this video. A prior comment asked a similar question. Vehicles are auxiliary to core gameplay. Are they important to the Halo experience? Yes. Are they present on every map and every match. No. Not close. Thus we can isolate mechanics that actually are universal in each match, which excludes vehicles. Your comment about SWAT doesn't have validity. It's a permutation of slayer. A party game that DIRECTLY removes a key competent of Halo design. In fact it only exists BECAUSE shields serve such a critical part in the sandbox and altering that GREATLY changes how the pieces fit together. Your comments about jump height are too internally comparative. Even in a game like Reach or H5 where jump is "less floaty" they still are FAR MORE vertical and floaty than most other FPS games. Based on your comment I think you missed a key message in this video. The beauty of "The Dance" as a design logic is that it's a malleable base, that allows for variation and innovation all while retaining the core goals. No singular Halo has the "correct dance" per say, but each one does have it's "the dance". If you assert one arrangement is the true version, you've asserted you don't understand how it works.
@@AscendHyperion Then your entire argument is flawed. What you are trying to make as Halo's special frosting is just vanilla arena shooter design, just like DOOM which is attack, movement, health. Every arena shooter has these already with varying amounts which you say halo varies in different games and if anything I jump vertically less in halo 4 and 5 then I do in DOOM. The point people used in the golden triangle is that in classic, you didn't need to sacrifice movement/motion/strafe etc to attack and vice versa and that is still true every time you play. Halo 4 n Halo 5 you must because they stretched maps more vertically and horizontally so the default jumping and running have less usefulness so you now need to sacrifice 1 of the 3 pieces of your dance in order to gain more on the other. Example a ledge you need to jump across during a firefight and getting shot at but you can't jump if you don't sprint, thrust, clamber but now can't shoot. The dance you are using no longer exists because if you try to shoot while attacking back you will fall to your death and miss the jump. It goes from an always ready able to attack and defend to 1 or the other. Becoming more of a game of cat and mouse rather then a dance. Even COD and Battlefield have same gameplay but different mechanics that make them unique. So in reality, all your dance is is just the generic formula of every arena shooter like DOOM, Quake, Rocket Arena, Unreal Tournament. And those games do far more vertical jumping then Halo 4 or 5 ever will as I have played both and Know I have, in the few matches I have every played of doom's multiplayer 2016, jumped more than Halo 4 and 5 combined, and I'm a 158 in Halo 5. Even in your own video you mention Halo being unique with jumping being higher than most shooters, but come to reach and beyond, you jump like the current UT game height, which is not much at all. What made Halo more unique was the gameplay of the golden triangle. As an infantry, you are always at the ready. you can shoot, melee, grenade without needing to sacrifice for more mobility. A triage with true balance does not ask you to sacrifice one over the other. The dismissiveness of my points of SWAT and vehicle game play by simple collection of words misses the point. Calling them "auxiliary to core gameplay" and "permutation of slayer/party game". Both these have been in existent since classic halo. it removes your triangle's structure but because the other 2 triangles, golden and vehicle, are there to balance your triangle, they maintain a gameplay that is unique. Even without protective health, with easy insta-death, which goes against the dance logic, because players are always at the ready to shoot, melee, nade with the same capacity to react thus a balance is maintained. Even when both players are fragile to a simple shot, because they both have the capability to react, a dance can be maintained. Without it, like Halo 5, you just need to gun down that player on Truth sprinting for cover because running would be too slow to properly traverse movement. Thus again, not equal opportunists but cat and mouse tactics, prey to predator. Vehicles, while not on every map, provide to enhance the player in one of these ways, more health, more movement, more attack capability. But as rock, paper, scissors go land vehicle beats infantry, air vehicle beats land, and infantry beats air vehicle. unfortunately this is lost in Halo 5 since you can move around like a fighter jet with sprint and thrust with a plasma pistol and not even tank is easily beat. Halo 4 failed too by allowing simple plasma pistol default spawns. stun and plasma nade tag. But in classic, these were very much rock, paper, scissors, with only a small ability to counter like splasers or variation warthogs that can uno reverse the situation. Banshee can beat warthog but gauss warthog can beat banshee more often in a fight. But it all goes back to the beginning, the dance logic is nothing more then the generics of every arena/fps arena that has ever existed even before Halo. It's that Halo had more levels of triangle balance for every situation to engage with. The fact that DOOM you can jump around more than Reach, 4, 5 shows that the sacrifice for more movement to get to the same place in previous games just to still attack. If you are going at 5 mph and the distance is 5 miles it will take you 1 hour. If I said I can now make you go 10 mph instead you would want that but the plot twist is I make the distance now 10 with this new ability that disables your attack, I have just essentially made it take the same amount of time to traverse but now the track is longer, and now I made you sacrifice the ability to shoot while at it. You are now dependent to maintain same movement but now have to sacrifice more from the others. Halo 5 adding also you can't recharge your shields, unlike 4 or reach, added a more crippling effect too. Again, golden triangle is important and vital to Halo's mechanics in the way of always at the ready multi-directional and no locked animation. Without it, it's more generic than the other Arena Shooters that Halo is associated with. But with the need to pretend to be like cod/battlefield and other games with sprint, it's altered to be some sort of hybrid of wannabe arena still with arcade/classic based shooting with modern mechanics that stripe the balance of what makes halo... halo. Golden Triangle kept the balance of attack, always at ready, no locked animation, and multi directional movement capable. That's why when sprint was always concepted in classic halo, ce, 2, 3, it never made it to the full game because it didn't belong in it, it broke movement balance and made it way too easy to get across maps while sacrificing attack. And Bungie saying goodbye was a way like saying we don't really need to care about the gameplay mechanics, since it's going backwards in time, we are sacrificing elements and it doesn't matter much since there was no competitive focus, there wasn't even a ranking added til later. It was saying goodbye and just making wacky additions that they normally wouldn't put in a halo game, wasn't meant to be expanded upon on locked animations. Classic Halo "You can't have one without the other" Modern Halo "You can have one without the other" But again, to defeat the whole point of the video to say Halo had this unique dance was in reality a generic arena shooter design other arenas have. If it were for the classic golden triangle and the vehicle combat triangle, Halo would have been generic. It was it's own unique arena shooter then, now it's a hodgepodge of modern and classic gameplay elements trying to be a hybrid but instead neither and those losing it's identity to try and stay relevant by mixing into the modern shooter crowd and the dance being less significant to gameplay all together.
actually more content creators on youtube spend time actually observing the halo design objectively, and every time they say that the community is trying to sell opinion as fact, but the amount of people doing that compared to the amount of people saying that others are doing it dont match up at all. i find it stupid how they try to show themselves off as the one exception, i see your no different
This video makes me realize just how childish Halo Fans can be. I've seen less cancer in the Smash community and that community is basically a tumor with legs at this point. Though I still think Spartan Advanced Mobility, while it's fun and makes for a very interesting Multiplayer experience, just doesn't fit in Halo because it serves no purpose other than making vehicles useless. Despite being just as important to Halo's design as the dance itself.
@@papounator8843 besides the weapon carry limit and movement speed (which isn't much of a factor ultimately) it isn't too much fundamentally different than quake or UT. Just different rules. Vehicles and objects with physics on the map have also been a part of quake and UT, and they're still qualified as arena shooters despite that. Every game has a "sandbox" doesn't it? That just a term used for the overall balance of things in a game.
Like, Subscribe and SHARE SHARE SHARE! Can we hit 1000 views on this? That would be cool :D
You asked for a 1K
We gave you 9K
Yes. Yes we can. Or we could give you 19
Noted:
If they have a toxic rant,
they wear cargo pant.
Yes sir
I dont ever rewind during these types of things but the last 4 minutes became hype as fhck with the music and analogies explaining maneuvers and tactics. Shit made me wanna play halo right then and there.
Wow. Seriously, this is a very enlightening video. I've seen so many talks on forums about 'gameplay mechanics' and 'abilities' and suchlike, but I never thought about Halo combat as a dance, nor did I think that it linked all the games in such a way. Now I'm looking to see what other things link the games as such. I also love how impartial and analytical you are. It is a welcome change from the bias that pervades the different sides of the fandoms, and I can't wait for more of these videos! :)
This guy ended all my negativity
Such a good video and very refreshing after watching bigger creators whine about sprint or warthog sounds all the time
even if sprint doesnt belong in halo, it does get boring and the content drought isnt helping
It's such a whiny community sometimes, this guy, who leaves emotion and opinion out of it, is so welcome
@@stevefakeye9101 How do you leave "opinion" out of discussing game design?
@@foreverdm7000 By only presenting facts and logic maybe?
@@Marzo7866 Are there facts and laws to game design that we have to follow or something? It's a pretty subjective field
You're one of the 3 good halo content creators. There's you, Late Night Gaming, and probably one other guy I don't know about but I'm willing to admit he probably exists.
Halo Cannon and Installation 00 are also pretty amazing though they don't delve into the multiplayer or game design aspect of Halo as much.
@@juantsu2000 Don't you just love how many great Halo youtubers all exist right now?
I dunno, Late Night Gaming says Halo "never was" an arena fps and it's hard to take him seriously when he gets basic, Google-able facts about his supposed favorite franchise wrong.
I really like your idea, it almost underlies the arguments other people have with regards to what does and doesn’t work in Halo because when you look at what they’re saying they tend to like development of this basic idea you are talking about and dislike additions that change how it works. Very cool
This dance exists in nearly every FPS arena game to some extent, but it's the specific interpretation of the relatively high TTK combined with the high engagement mobility/low general movement capability that sets Halo apart from boots-on-ground shooters that are slow to move and rely on who shoots first and from movement-centric shooters like Titanfall where the ability to get from one side of the map in two seconds flat plays a significant role in each engagement. Halo is a movement shooter for people who don't like movement shooters.
Absolutely amazing, I never realized any of this before, the dance was always there. I agree that the dance is the true design philosophy, and as long as halo sticks with it, they can't go wrong.
This is why I enjoy halo
Because I've known the dance since my ce days
I'm so familiar with the combat and I'm so used to the gunplay
I know that I can turn a fight on its head and not any other shooter gives me the empowering feeling of my split second decisions being able to turn the odds from against me to in my favor. The factor alone that the fight can also turn against me when i have the advantage is what makes me keep coming back. The dance is the reason why I enjoy each halo game. At its core, halos combat will always stay the same
*but the combat continues to evolve*
That's what's truly great about Halo, is that it's not a mindless shooter. Whether fighting other players or AI, the game is intrinsically based on the player's decision making deciding whether that player won or lost a specific fight. And that part you said at the end about how Halo's Combat Evolves gave me chills. A lot of people talk about how CE's name is stupid but in all reality Combat Evolved is not just a dumb tagline, it is the definition of the series itself.
The one song that starts in halo 3s first mission called "Another walk" emphasizes on Halo's movement speed being a fast paced walk and chief fights like he is in a dance.
this might be the greatest video I've ever seen 😂 you've synthesized and articulated what, I think, a lot of long-time Halo players have "known" but been unable to express in any real way. well done!
2:10 Well Played.
And great analysis of The Dance too. There's a reason that SWAT isn't halo 😏
true enough. It can be a fun mode tho
@@WarpSonic Sure; there are lots of fun things that aren't "core Halo".
But I question whether those things will ever be as good in Halo as they can be in a game that focuses on them.
I would also add: the two weapon system (a big differentiator from it's shooter predecessors: half life, doom, and quake) weapon choice is super important, additionally: halo has traditionally focused it's gun play around orthogonal unit differentiation: each gun operates in an effective role. Bungie even mentioned this in a vidoc that it's hard to add guns without stepping on another gun's useful area. This also means if you see someone with a shotgun, or a sniper you have a good idea of how they're going to play. It allows for meaningful choices and planning on the player's part. Finally, the original 3 game"s multiplayer design revolved around power weapons. This was a tool that allowed good teams to consistently win if they understood the map and did a good job of controlling it. Just my .02 cents
Well yeah, each FPS Halo game follows this design logic, but modern Halo titles gave more power to the movement part of the dance, which is why a lot of people tend to dislike those later games. In the original trilogy, the dance was decently well balanced, but once more movement options were given to players, movement was given more prominence, and the dance was thrown off balance from what people expect. You could argue all shooters have their own dance (as they all have combat, movement, and health), but the balance of those 3 elements in the original trilogy are different from what Reach-5 were.
So, a couple of the typical issues in this comment.
First, the assertion that people don't like higher mobility is down to subjective opinion. In the same way you could get someone to say they don't like, you could get someone to say they do. You could even flip the coin and get those who DISLIKE lower mobility and so on. (See the part about weaponized analysis)
Two, You're asserting The Dance is thrown off balance but by what reason? Are you still strafing? Are you still using the golden triangle? Are fights still varied in length? Are jumps and crouches still key? You're trying to view The Dance as though it's limited to one or two titles. The best part about it is that it's transitive. It isnt defined by, or contained by one or two games. Each game has a mutation of The Dance. There was never a singular version.
Third, I could give you a whole video about how each title modifies The Dance, down to each cornerstone. Difference is not exclusive to HR-H5. But that isnt the point. The point is to highlight and describe how the cornerstones of The Dance not only appear in each title, they do so all while retaining their value while allowing for variation.
@@AscendHyperion I think you're misinterpreting my comment a bit. All I was saying is that every Halo game has the Dance, but different games lean into different aspects of the Dance more than others. The classic trilogy were all fairly similar, while HR-5 naturally leaned more into the movement aspect of the Dance, due to Spartan abilities, sprint, armor abilities, etc. Yes, you're still jumping, strafing, etc, but you can't deny things like sprint, the jetpack, thrust, slide, and so on can substantially alter the balance more in favor of movement. Not saying that's a bad thing, but there's a reason why some Halo fans favor the games with a smaller focus on movement, and why others favor greater movement.
Oh well yeah I 100% agree. Enhanced mobility does really morph the Movement cornerstone quite a bit. I was reading your comment as you saying that morph was inherently negative. That I would contest because liking one thing vs the other is subjective.
I dunno if there is a "favor" towards movement per say. Weight might be a better word.
@You're fake and gay Jetpack was extremely useful to gain higher ground, and made it borderline essential on some maps, camo's meh, but I much prefer it as a map pickup, and armor lock is hella annoying. In team games, if an opponent armor locks, there's a good chance their teammate(s) will come around and finish you off while they stay safe, and in FFA, a similar situation happens where another opponent will finish you off if you're fighting someone and they armor lock. That's not even counting how unfun it could make BTB matches be.
I think you missed the point of the video , it’s the fact that every halo does have the dance, the variations of the dance don’t really matter, yes people prefer pre halo reach gameplay but I think a lot of those people are just stubborn and unwilling to learn new mechanics, it is easy to write spartan abilities off as useless but that really isn’t true. Spartan abilities just added even more mechanics to the dance and these abilities have influenced so many games afterwards. I think classic halo fans are just unwilling to learn or use new mechanics in the the games after halo 3 which leads them to not get the full experience and enjoyment of those multiplayers.
Halo 3 and below is a simple tapdance. Simple, efficient but still fun.
Halo Reach and forward are a full ballet routine mixed with some hip-hop.
Neither are bad, just different.
Easily the best explanation of bungie vs 343 halo. Good stuff!
I discovered your videos this week and you've already earned my subscription. Bravo!
3:39 ah yes the language of halo its generally a 4 year old yelling NI-
NI what? NItrogen? NIpples? NIght? I'm confused, are those bad?
GER is a misspelling of beloved Invader Zim character GIR.
Between this and the Gungoose video I've finally decided to subscribe.
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I've always enjoyed the Halo series, but it wasn't until recently that I decided that it truely is my all time favorite shooter franchise. Prior to this I spent four years playing Overwatch and managed to climb to Master rank but it just wasn't fun. One of my biggest issues with the game is that some characters are more fun to play than others and if you want to play a character you like you have to either be a god tier player with them or you have to be willing to put up with your teammates hatred if you refuse to switch and can't meet their unrealistic expectations.
Halo is different though. In Halo there is only one character to play, but that character is insanely fun to use no matter what position you are in or what weapon you are using. It doesn't matter if you're sitting in base puppy guarding the flag or if you're running on the front lines trying to get the flag in the first place, Halo is always fun. Win or lose, rain or shine, the game feels great to play and thats something you don't get with character/class based games like League or Overwatch.
My problem is I can't dance ;)
Another great video Ascend! Keep up the good work :D
Love the MK V in that thumbnail
This might be the best put explanation for why I enjoy all of the Halos and have a very hard time picking my least favorite or most favorite.
Except 5, which I can't speak to because I haven't played it
you really should play halo 5 it has some of the best gameplay of any of the halo's in my opinion. the stuff the game lets you do with its enhanced movement is amazing it allows for so much more active use of weapons that normally get a bit shafted by things like the br. also this is probably just a me thing i like that in the campaign the enemies were a bit more gameified, they gave the prometheans weakpoints and stuff which made them far less of a giant bullet soak and stuff on legendary if you could hit the right spot. the campaign was a bit hit or miss for some people i liked it and i mean it's all adding up to inifinite, i just wish they put halo 5 on pc with the rest of the games
Absolutely loved this video, so refreshing to see someone point out that even though Halo has evolved its core has not changed.
I also never knew I was looking for and engaging in the Dance until it was pointed out.
Very informative and enjoyable!
I got chills at 9:40 with the music in the background
This is why I like Halo 5 it has turned the dance into rapid tap dancing. I love it, it's chaotic and insane. Can't wait for Halo Infinite. Great video!
Not everyone enjoys the crazy pace though...
@@SiphonRayzar I can understand that, it can be a bit sweaty at times, but I think it would be a waste to throw away such great mechanics. Actually even I am finding Halo 4 a bit too fast too these days in MCC.
@@EthanRom Personally, I much prefer no sprint, but from what the demo shoed in July, Sprint has been heavily neutered, which is fine with me.
@@SiphonRayzar it did look like a nice jog and slide/thruster has been adjusted into a sorta duck/dodge move, which is okay in my books.
I've always been a fan of mobility meta, which is why Halo 5's gameplay sandbox wasn't something I hated. I can respect people who believe the mobility pillar of the dance should be default at less mobile than H5, and honestly they're probably right, but it's not something that bothers me.
This is one of the most beautiful halo analysis videos ive ever seen. Why is this buried underneath so many hours of thirsty infinite news coverage and pure vitriol over how fast the master chief runs. This video should be what halo analysis content looks up to
8:10 this segment is so powerful
More people need to hear this
Sounds solid. Very interesting; I definitely see how the “Dance” is what really defines Halo.
Great video, very logical and well worded.
Hey, look. Exactly what I've been saying since Reach. Good job on the vid. Very nice.
I’ve been trying to come up with a way to explain this for years 😂
LEGENDARY VIDEO
I just wanna point out that hype ass revelation section about the dance being in every game is accompanied by Halo 5 music. Not Halo 3. Halo 5. Big brain.
oh it is in every game, but watered down and much less impactful, especially in halo 5. its not really a triangle more like some gross miscalculation
@@heftymagic4814 Oh, I meant that the part where Ascend talks about the "dance" has Halo 5 music, not H3. The dance is definitely to be found in every game :)
this video is fire 🔥🔥🔥
I’d agree with the last part more if mechanics like dash and sprint didn’t directly affect player agency during “the dance”. Your ability to turn the tides of any battle is crippled greatly if someone who is exposed at a range can easily sprint into cover before they die, or if they can avoid the effective range of your grenade by just dashing/running into another direction. Halo 5 is fun and all, but you get way less of those “turning the tides by outsmarting your opponent” moments simply because the stakes of any given action are lowered by the fact that now you have all these movement mechanics at your disposal. Play a match of halo 3 and halo 5 and you’ll see what I mean: Halo 5 encourages more aggressive, risky plays that would NEVER work out so well in any of bungie’s games, because it allows you to slither your way out of unfavorable odds and not-so-stupid decisions.
That’s the main problem, because you can just use movement mechanics to get out of dicy situations in Halo 5, and the overall grasp of actions on the tide of a battle is weakened both ways due to it, your aren’t as encouraged to use your wit in the same way you would in a bungie game. I’m also tired of people complaining about sprint, but we shouldn’t just ignore how greatly it affects “the dance”.
How I know you actually play Halo and don't just have "a few memories with a few friends playing in their couch": You understand situational gameplay mechanics that define Halo, you mention each component had a symbiotic relationship that doesn't change with title, and above all else, you understand that a player "good at Halo" isn't limited to one title.
Sure, one title may favor them with the tricks that title poses, but "good at Halo" really just is an end-all term. A pro player, for example, can compete in any of the Halo games and hit pro status, assuming their team is good. Their individual skill is STILL top notch in any of those games, and translating between each title isn't a chore, it's more like learning manual from one car to another. It's the same thing, just slightly different.
As for the other Tubers who mention the triangle, this is possibly the most correct topic there is on it. Using it to state "this is why Halo 3 is the best" is sort of misleading. Halo 2 disrupts from the original (to those people) triangle, so does H3 verses H2. And so on. They're missing the other portions which play a role, and that's what you highlighted.
I do personally not like 4, but 5 is a good title. I just think they dumbed-down 5. I hate hitmarkers, the extreme amount of assists, and all that jazz.
Here's to hoping Infinite is a title that can unite a fractured community.
I absolutely love your videos! You're such a reat part of the Halo community, thank you so much!
You’re totally correct, but also totally wrong?
“The dance” as you define it is what makes Halo, Halo. For sure. But implying that the later titles with faster ttk, separation from top movement speed and the golden triangle, worse maps that aren’t fun to traverse, shit weapons that lead to flowchart decisionmaking, clamber leading to overly forgiving verticality, and so much more aren’t effecting “the dance”.
It’s nice to bring a message of unity, but 343lo is unacceptable and NOT cut from the same cloth. At this point, all you can say is “it has weapons, melee, grenades, movement and health” but when all of those things are thrown out of wack… it ain’t it, chief.
I was expecting that someone was going to make this video someday, i wasn't able to explain to a lot of people how Halo still feels like Halo and that's why i play it despite enhanced mobility and new things in general, there is nothing in the market that plays like Halo.
It's an unfortunate trend in Halo where people will obsess over change to the point where recognizing and acknowledging what really ties Halo together is the road less traveled. Here's to changing that!
Try apex legends I think it’s the only other game that plays somewhat like halo. It kind of has its own dance if you will
Really good vid!
Excellent video and great way to call out the echo chambers in the Halo community.
I could not agree more with the combative statement it’s something that plagues the community
Bungie Purists: 343 doesn't understand Halo!
Rebuttal: This vid.
its not being a purist to say that 343 doesnt understand halo when theyve shown time and time again that they just dont
@@heftymagic4814 sure if you ignore how none of their changes to the formula ever broke the core gameplay like bungie did. Art style isn't the only thing that defines the series, and if it is, Bungie is an equal violators that regard when moving from CE to 2. Don't BS me when you don't know what you're talking about.
I like halo's movement. It's a nice change of pace from the bunny hopping and running around that I'm used to. I don't prefer it, but it's a nice to have a change of pace every once in a while.
If the dance is what defines halos gameplay then it can be extrapolated which games have a more intuitive dance.
There is also vehicle gameplay as another part of this dance.
Looking at the small intricacies of each game. Weapon balance, map design to accommodate the flow of that games dance, etc then we can see where the dance falters.
Vehicles tend to float around in the nebulous soup that is “The Dance.”
So, to clarify, "The Dance' is best understand as a foundational piece, or a shape piece, onto which additional and different mechanics and features are attachable/insert-able. Even between Halo CE and Halo 2, you can observe BIG changes in the GT, Movement and Health cornerstones. I even acknowledged several of the ways different titles affect the components of "The Dance" in this video. The beauty and strength in the logic of "The Dance" is that is allows for variation BY DESIGN. You can think about it as margin for error/growth depending on you life view haha. It naturally accommodates changes while retaining a similar shape, especially at the core.
To call it a falter is a misunderstanding of the logic. Core symbiosis on mechanics is retained, The Dance is functioning as intended.
EDIT: You are very correct in acknowledging vehicles and their own influence. I'm not neglecting them just cause. But because they require a breakdown our their own system and then that systems RELATION to everything else. TLDR: Video too big haha.
Ascend Hyperion I perceive Vehicles as falling into a shared space between Weapons, Grenades (or Explosives), Melee, and Mobility. Vehicles are essentially “Weapons”. Some may contain “Explosive” destructive capabilities or allow for it. I believe all of them can be used to splatter opponents as a form of CQC similar to what “Melee” provides. They all inherently include a “Mobility” component.
Heck, even the Equipment or “Abilities” manage to fall into the shared space within the foundational combat Tetrahedron or “Dance”.
You must have done really well on school presentations
leaving a comment for the algorithm, you deserve it
I don't see why there is so much opposition to armor abilities and equipment that actually fits the lore/cannon of the Halo universe that has been established since before CE even was released (The Fall of Reach novel). Yes it changes the gameplay a little but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. I haven't played halo 5 yet but I have only seen 1 place in MCC where you actually have to use a jet pack and that is a very small part of the campaign on Reach. Sprint is also completely optional in Halo 4. However I have also seen players use plasma grenades and rocket launchers in place of jet packs and sprint in Halo 1-3 to launch themselves across the map for a quick kill or to evade a group of enemies. Also Halo has a different game balance than most other FPS games with longer time to kill and often having the ability to counter opponents that get the initial jump on you, enhanced mobility, armor abilities, or equipment, are meant to make players have more control and increase complexity as well as rewarding skill mastery for something other than fast reaction times and headshots. If there is too much focus on limiting gameplay to the "golden triangle" then what you will have is basically COD with extra health and different maps/cosmetics instead of Halo. Also "the dance" is slightly different in each halo title as the game mechanics were tweaked to try to achieve a better balanced game and move forward with better game console technology but after a few minutes of playing it has always been easy to adjust to with the exception of CE for me, the gameplay on CE feels really strange and and floaty and at times unresponsive compared to the other games but I am certain that was due to limitations of the game console technology at the time it was made.
Dude this is such an incredible analysis. Love it. One thing I’d like to add to ‘The Dance’ is player cooperation. With the high health mechanic, movement and weapons, the way that teams engage one another is a deciding factor in who wins and who loses. Cluster together? Increase your firepower but vulnerable to AOE. Flank? Risk getting team-shot by clustered opponents. Protect your teammate while he obtains new tools for the weapon triangle - or drop a bubble shield for your buddy to recharge. Cooperation is key in Halo, especially in high-level play.
I love this idea of how refined Halo is if you take a moment to look past the normal gameplay but it makes me wonder, how will the increased presence of equipment impact Halo infinite? It has more usability and prevalence than it ever did in 3 or even reach so, chances are it will drastically modify the very idea of the dance. If the dance defines Halo, will Infinite be Halo?
Still super excited about infinite though, change isn't always bad!
Combos should kill the fastest, BUT that does NOT mean a weapon shouldn't be able to kill on its own. Remember that the golden triangle is the methods of attack, not its own method of attack. Too many people believe that players should be forced to use combos and that only precision weapons should do decent damage.
Great vid. That should shut up the Halo 5 haters for a while. Watching this and comparing to my experience in Splitgate, it kinda has a similar "dance" that's different but still has a lot of similar aspects.
Not gonna lie chief, sounds like you're explaining how just about every fps game functions at it's core.
This. Halo content creators think that Halo is the only shooter or something.
I've even had Late Night Gaming tell me that Halo "never was" an arena fps, but instead a party game.
I try over and over again to explain to my friends why halo is more complex than most shooters. They think battle royals and cod are so good. While in halo a single jump has more to it than cod has for example. I'm glad I came across this video
Oh wow. Try playing UT or Quake. Your mind will really be blown then.
Makes me wonder why the ttk hasn’t gone down, even in Infinite.
Titanfall titan fights and OverWatch tanks are probably the only comparable games in terms of prolonged fights, but those seem a lot slower and clunkier, rather than evasion prolonging as well.
I think this is a decent video, however I think you oversimplify and brush over a lot in order to come to the intended conclusion that all 7 games have the same core formula and that nothing in them interferes with it. Most obvious example of something that directly interferes with this dance is armor lock, to use the more specific analogy it directly alters the damage golden triangle, health, and movement all at once and in drastic ways. To be more broad, if the dance really is a formula coming from an interaction between damage methods, movement, and health, then it seems natural to say that changes to any of these will affect the overall formula. Yeah it's still *a* dance, but it's a different dance, sometimes only slightly different and other times dramatically so.
Also this analysis only covers the moment to moment gameplay. I'd argue things like vehicles or map control are almost as core to Halo as the moment to moment fights if not equally important, and these things exist totally outside this dance framework and have also been heavily affected and altered over time.
It's obvious this video is specific to combat, movement and health.
@@MonteMind I know, I'm saying that the "core" of Halo is more than that, the specific examples I gave are vehicles and weapon/map control. Yeah he only talks about those three things, but what the video is truly about is "Halo's True Design Logic" right there in the title, pointing out something that is included in that but wasn't touched on in the video is a reasonable point I think.
Really like this and the Valhalla video. Your design vids are on point
Dude absolutely mind blowing very big brain
smart man the next time i have to explain why halo is halo to someone I will use this video.
Great Video ! You relevant a very good point. This is Halo ! GG
nah Halo 4 and Halo 5 are COD games still
is what everybody is gonna say still
The dance is designed to always give each player a fighting chance at winning the duel. got shot first? throw a well aimed nade and boom now you got health advantage, or strafe a corner and use it as cover. Hell even crouching to remove yourself from the radar to get a ninja works wonders as well! But nothing gives you a more satisfying "Hell yeah" then when you deflect a rocket with a gravity hammer. Thats a great example cuz if you are good enough to time your swing, the other guys "one shot kill weapon" is now useless :) great video, very educational.
I couldn't hear your voice when you started playing the Halo theme at the end.
Nice video, gave a like because of How its well done but I don't agree with a single word you said, anyway good job keep It up 👍🏿
Doom Eternal does jumping REALLY good
I'm typing a review of Doom Eternal right now and I couldn't help but compare it to Halo's dance. The game even has its own golden triangle, but with farming pickups like ammo, armor, and health off of enemies. Chainsaw for ammo, flamethrower for armor, and executions for health. And those three are essential for surviving in that game.
I won't deny that I dislike the newer Halo games (though I will give a shoutout to 5 for what I consider the most balanced sandbox since CE... before the big nerfs anyway.) Still, I enjoyed your video a lot - objective and easy to follow.
I do still believe those videos you alluded to missing the big picture still have a purpose though - if you just focused on the big picture of "the dance" you'd miss the smaller details of how its implementation differs between the games (and how that affects player enjoyment.) And that I do believe is worth debating over exactly because it's always been a contentious topic even before Reach.
You were looking at the wrong CoD to compare to Halo 5. CoD AW’s super jump sent you higher and further with the use of boosters than Halo 5’s from what I’ve been able to see.
Inspring video as always! That's the homeslice style
Honestly map control could be the forth part of the diamond instead of a triangle but i guess thats more movement ot power weapons. Yeah anyways map/area control is very important not just in halo but a lot of games but halo especially do to power ups vehicles and power weapons. Like if you get the energy sword and shotgun you where king of CQC.
I recall being so good with it in fact i made people rage quit because it took forever or at least till they both ran out of ammo an charge to kill me. ahhhh good times.
Movement, stack (damage input, if you will) and damage output are at the core of every action game, not even just shooters. I also think the golden triangle, while an important observation, doesn't do much to really describe Halo. Practically every FPS has a melee button or a permanently available melee weapon like the knife in CS. You spawn with grenades that you throw with a dedicated button in many shooters. There is also a blurry distinction at best between grenades and other projectile weapons. So COD and Battlefield arguably feature the same "golden triangle" so what does it say about Halo? Barely anything. Every Halo needs it but having it doesn't make a game Halo. The relationships and distinctions you present are all important and valid, but they barely scratch the surface of how shooters work, let alone tell us much about Halo. Even the notion that the (average) time to kill is higher in Halo than other FPS is hardly true since Halo CE has a much shorter TTK than later Halos, and since Halo 2's button combos cut fights between high level players similarly short.
Having said all that, most people's idea of true Halo is closest to Halo 3 and I am one of those people. Halo 3 seems to be the most complete, robust realization of what Bungie wanted Halo CE and 2 to play like all along. After all they didn't account for the glitches and for tricks extremely high skill players would come up with when they balanced those games. You can like the results on their own merits but neither CE nor 2 are (at a high level of competition) what Halo ever was to normal players or to the developers. In absence of a large technical vocabulary to nail exactly what Halo 1-3 were all about the pragmatic way to define true Halo multiplayer is simply "Halo 3". This definition is not ideal but it's useful unlike any anti-intellectual attempts to water everything down to relativity and meaninglessness by Halo Reach - 5 apologists whose implicit definition of Halo is any FPS that has Microsoft's blessing to use the name. They're happy with any changes as long as they adhere to genre conventions. They actually believe an argument to support the addition of new features like sprinting is that other games have it! Really think about this for a moment. Halo Reach - 5 apologists are implicitly in favor of Halo losing its identity / never getting it back. They WANT Halo to be like any other game out there. This makes the split in the community permanent. A compromise only works between factions with a common goal. Despite a surface level allegiance to "Halo" there is actually no such common goal between people who want real Halo back and people who don't. Trying to unite the old and new cores is futile. Keep this in mind, no matter if you prefer classic Halo or the taste of a marketing exec's boot.
This is exactly why I strongly disagree with the argument that Halo 4 “is a good game, but not a good Halo game.” Like, okay, custom loadouts and ordnance drops conflict with the philosophies of same starts and map control, but the dance is just as present in Halo 4 as it is in Halo 3. Above the sandbox, above the art style, the dance is what makes Halo, Halo.
i wanna see spellbreaks core gameplay broken down
yo también agregaría los mapas, buen video :D
Devs mentioned the dance in the latest halo infinite blog
And people act like I don't know what I'm talking about 🤪
Ok I'm gonna come clean with you here
I did not like the DMR in Reach because:
A: You almost always spawn with it. That's boring and it makes AR's, Plasma Rifles and Plasma Repeaters basically useless.
B: It makes close range combat (one of Halo's biggest strengths gameplay wise) much less prevalent.
C: Makes every vehicle much less useful, especially ones with little driverseat defense. It sucks to get into a falcon and then get peppered by constantly respawning DMR users. It should be that you get to rain hell down until someone on the other team finds a sniper or rocket launcher and saves them all from you. Also, why would you go for a cool carjack when you could just shoot the guy out of the drivers seat?
D: Spending 78% of your gameplay scoped in is not very cool. It sucks.
E: Scope camping is way easier if you don't have to look for a scoped weapon (I would prefer if all players played 'Halo' and not 'click on heads simulator 2011')
Ce was basically click on heads shooter with the magnum
Don't forget that automatic weapons are peashooters in Reach.
This was sick
Nice video
Amazing
THIS!
Damn this is good
Except that you fail to mention the original dance was an already balanced formula. Altering the movement ascpect of the "dance triangle" has weighted and warped the entire trigangle Into something that doesn't quite upholds bungies balance. You are extremely undermining the effect that small changes can have on the identity of complex systems. Nuance is not to be take lightly my dear friend. A tablespoon more of salt can ruin even the most well designed recipes.
I agree with you, but I think nuance is thrown out the window when a certain element of Halo's gameplay is given obnoxiously more power than the others, i.e movement, as seen in the modern Halo games.
I kept thinking to myself throughout the video how this core philosophy regarding Halo's signature gameplay was really narrowed and honed by the original 3 games, and how it was clearly obvious that abilities such as sprint and clamber ruin that balance and also bastardise the rest of the game in order to accommodate them; if movement is made more powerful, weapons have to become more powerful (the entirety of H5's sandbox was designed around dealing with advanced mobility, with heavy bullet magnetism and ADS on every weapon).
Similarly, many surrounding game design philosophies that facilitate and bring the best out of "the dance", such as having no separation between it's various elements of movement, combat and health and innovating through the sandbox rather than base player traits, were waved-off as misconceptions surrounding the golden triangle philosophy in a way that felt pretty disingenuous.
I think what people miss is there is a big difference in movement between CE to 2 and 3, CE feels fast while 2 and 3 makes you feel like a tank, funny enough I used to be one of the people who hated 4 at one point (feel like I was a bit manipulated by all these UA-camrs and all that a bit) but after going back, I actually can't stand how sluggish 2 and 3 to me now and now 4 is my favorite, I reckon just cause bungie did it shouldn't make it absolutely, plus they changed it themselves and never were good at balancing weapons in the sense every weapon is useful, Bungies first trilogy is actually horrible in that regard cause each game had a precision weapon that was unmatched and the entire game may as well just be you using that one gun such as the magnum in CE, BR in 2 and 3, DMR in Reach, I'd give 343 credit cause at least with their games they had better weapon balancing, though I'm not a fan of everything they have done I can't say that bungie was the be all and end all for making a definitive halo experience cause even they thought they needed to change what they did and 343 being made up of ex bungie staff proves that they were always wanting to evolve the series in that way disregarding how good or bad you might of thought it all was
@@SSStevie halo 4 makes you feel like a small marine though. I like it's base movement, but not the fact that adding sprint stretched the map to the point where spartans are these tiny little elves now.
@@jackcolson4745 that is literally the best explanation I have ever seen for how 4 feels, i understand that, it needs a bit of weight, I feel like the only one I really got that in was reach and 5, let's hope infinite is even better
@@SSStevie I am glad that you understand what I mean. But I put halo 5 and reach with halo 4 in that category. They all have the trend of smaller player models, but faster movement causing stretched maps. The scale I want halo to go back to, is the halo 2 scale. That I feel, is where the stark contrast of scale is.
THANK YOU! finally someone says it!
a senpai period
Love your video. U are right about what you said but a game still has to feel like halo. 5 did not cuz everyone was constantly boosting around and felt out of place. New additions added like armor abilities gadgets sprint and gun mods were not implemented the best but still feel like halo
More than anything it was the poor sandbox design
but then there's Spartan Charge and Ground Pound that completely ignores the dance. : / It's whoever hits who first if you use it.
Only Groundpound. I survived a lot of Spartan Charges, except the ones with swords. But yeah, I get it.
Hence why this video is cope and just facetious untruth
Great video!
11:17 alright don’t get carried away now
Still great video
This makes me want to play halo MP but I know that I'll get my ass handed to me if I hop on
2min in and I fw it heavy!
Power weapons and vehicles disagree with a lot of what you said.
Mostly agree.
I’ve long believed that the “Golden Triangle” has always actually been an Tetrahedron in that the three combat components are each tied to mobility. Then on top of that you have the health system which incorporates a shielding component as well as a player health meter.
There have been tweaks made to the overall health system per the title, but they’ve all managed to follow a similar basic concept that allows for extended combat encounters compared to most other FPS titles. This is primarily because of the shield system and the head damage multiplier of unshielded players.
Your method of explanation is quite similar to my own belief.
Now, I wouldn’t go so far as to suggest that each title has done a faithful job at upholding to the core principles, as I perceive them. And, to be clear, this isn’t a complaint about the inclusion of Sprint. In fact, I think the evolution of the Sprint mechanic has found a rightful and excellent place within the core design principle of Halo’s Mobility. The H5 design has done well to address the real issue that related to escape-ability.
No, my issue has been with titles that ventured into unbalanced starts for Arena gameplay. Now, allowing for unbalanced starts in particular social environments is a different story because the mode and its environment should allow for expansion, or even some outright deviations, from Halo’s foundational principles of design. This can allow Halo to find new ways to capture consumer interest.
Another such issue I have is with titles that expanded the amount of random variance within its gunplay and gameplay to lessen the control a player has over winning combat encounters. The sizeable amount of bloom in Halo Reach comes to mind; especially, pre-TU. And the random map Ordnance Drops in Halo 4 come to mind too; although, within a social environment it doesn’t present the same problem.
Finally, particular Equipment or Ability tools which directly contend with the basic combat flow of Halo’s foundational Tetrahedron or “Dance” - as you describe it. The worst offender of this, IMO, has been Halo Reach’s Armor Lock (AA) which outright suspended combat for a period of time; especially, in its pre-TU version.
To me, there are foundational principles even within the overall foundational principles that you’ve highlighted. Now, I’m sure this is the same argument many could use to point out their subjective issues with particular evolutions within the Tetrahedron or Dance, but I really try to stay grounded and objective on the matter as I apply it. Nevertheless, in the end, it’ll always remain a perception issue within the community that’s often tainted by personal subjectivity.
I can appreciate the acknowledgement of how different titles have different facets that affect our gameplay experience.When I present the idea of The Dance, it's more so as a foundation, or basis of Halo, onto which modifications can be found or attached. So without a doubt, if you alter that foundation to a degree or attach things to it you will get variation in initial shape. But despite these modifications and additions, I think it is observable that base level, even up several levels of gameplay, still maintain that core image.
Ascend Hyperion It is possible to ‘break’ one of the key aspects, however. Jet Pack is a prime example. As a forger in Halo: Reach, designing around jet pack is a massive pain because hard and soft routes no longer matter to them. Attaining power positions simply requires the tap of a button.
In such a way, Jet Pack breaks the mobility aspect of the dance. It removes the necessity for a player to think about how they want to move, and oversimplifies it (want to go there? Just fly there!). This is not as big a problem in Halo 4, where the Jet Pack was massively nerfed, but in Halo Reach the Jet Pack completely breaks map flow and movement strategy.
Is there fall damage in halo 5?
No. Similar to Halo 2 and Halo 3 there is no fall damage in Halo 5. Unlike those two however, Halo 5 does have height stun, depending on drop height.
There is fall damage, though you need to be at the top of the ceiling in forge maps like tidal. It isn't much but it's there.
Seems like destiny has the dance too
Almost all shooters have the dance just in a different strain
@@imza5535 not really
@@johnnyboy5135 destinys got health, movement and the golden triangle. But the golden triangle now includes abilities like supers, grenade, and melee. Guns have different perks, and different stats affect amount of health and recovery of health. Movement is different from different classes eg. Warlock = glide, hunter = jumps etc. So yes Destiny has the dance too just a mutated version of the dance with all the inclusions of perks, and abilities.
How do you still have less than 10k??
Oh right, cuz you're not a bungie zealot...
Or... Just put sensitivity on highest and get a sniper and let aim assist do the job for you.
I would love to have equipment again, but not necessarily the old ones. The "dance" for regen was annoying.
You said you did a lot of research when making this video, assuming that you had read articles or videos my the developers or messaged them about it but I don't see it so it feels more of a take away observation then anything else. Personally I feel there are 3 triangles, one that everyone misses, especially this video, and that is the rock, paper, scissors of vehicles when added to the mix. Also this logic is beaten, when by itself, just by SWAT, since everyone can insta-die from a headshot easily but there is still a golden triangle. But also this video misses how advance movement while affecting the movement/strafe real does hurt the gameplay. When you move slower running and need to sprint to get around the map at the same time to traverse, you have now affected not just the golden triangle but even the dance logic. Halo 4/5, and possible Halo Infinite, looking at the run/jump it feels lessened. You aren't as floaty as classic and able to jump higher and move faster so you start becoming a snail. And when you have to sacrifice shoot to move forced situations it also hinders that. When I can no longer jump to heights I would normally in Halo 3 do but in Halo 5 my spartan is too punny to jump to, I have to resort to clamber, because even crouch jumping is lessened so you HAVE to relay on it.
I'm not "keep everything classic movement mechanics" only, as I feel their are ways to evolves Halo 3 that I feel was at it's high the best competitive play with dance logic and golden triangle but you can evolve it into an even more fun and engaging way without limiting players to feel slower by not able to move as much or jump as high to sacrifice more golden triangle for more motion/movement from the dance logic, thus throwing off weight balance of the dance triangle and making power weapons even stronger and harder to combat. And again, vehicle golden triangle is even more forgotten in Halo. And Halo 4 did the worst in making that unbalanced giving everyone the PP power weapon to spawn with.
I didn't forget vehicles in this video. A prior comment asked a similar question. Vehicles are auxiliary to core gameplay. Are they important to the Halo experience? Yes. Are they present on every map and every match. No. Not close. Thus we can isolate mechanics that actually are universal in each match, which excludes vehicles.
Your comment about SWAT doesn't have validity. It's a permutation of slayer. A party game that DIRECTLY removes a key competent of Halo design. In fact it only exists BECAUSE shields serve such a critical part in the sandbox and altering that GREATLY changes how the pieces fit together.
Your comments about jump height are too internally comparative. Even in a game like Reach or H5 where jump is "less floaty" they still are FAR MORE vertical and floaty than most other FPS games.
Based on your comment I think you missed a key message in this video. The beauty of "The Dance" as a design logic is that it's a malleable base, that allows for variation and innovation all while retaining the core goals. No singular Halo has the "correct dance" per say, but each one does have it's "the dance". If you assert one arrangement is the true version, you've asserted you don't understand how it works.
@@AscendHyperion Then your entire argument is flawed. What you are trying to make as Halo's special frosting is just vanilla arena shooter design, just like DOOM which is attack, movement, health. Every arena shooter has these already with varying amounts which you say halo varies in different games and if anything I jump vertically less in halo 4 and 5 then I do in DOOM. The point people used in the golden triangle is that in classic, you didn't need to sacrifice movement/motion/strafe etc to attack and vice versa and that is still true every time you play. Halo 4 n Halo 5 you must because they stretched maps more vertically and horizontally so the default jumping and running have less usefulness so you now need to sacrifice 1 of the 3 pieces of your dance in order to gain more on the other. Example a ledge you need to jump across during a firefight and getting shot at but you can't jump if you don't sprint, thrust, clamber but now can't shoot. The dance you are using no longer exists because if you try to shoot while attacking back you will fall to your death and miss the jump. It goes from an always ready able to attack and defend to 1 or the other. Becoming more of a game of cat and mouse rather then a dance. Even COD and Battlefield have same gameplay but different mechanics that make them unique.
So in reality, all your dance is is just the generic formula of every arena shooter like DOOM, Quake, Rocket Arena, Unreal Tournament. And those games do far more vertical jumping then Halo 4 or 5 ever will as I have played both and Know I have, in the few matches I have every played of doom's multiplayer 2016, jumped more than Halo 4 and 5 combined, and I'm a 158 in Halo 5. Even in your own video you mention Halo being unique with jumping being higher than most shooters, but come to reach and beyond, you jump like the current UT game height, which is not much at all. What made Halo more unique was the gameplay of the golden triangle. As an infantry, you are always at the ready. you can shoot, melee, grenade without needing to sacrifice for more mobility. A triage with true balance does not ask you to sacrifice one over the other.
The dismissiveness of my points of SWAT and vehicle game play by simple collection of words misses the point. Calling them "auxiliary to core gameplay" and "permutation of slayer/party game". Both these have been in existent since classic halo. it removes your triangle's structure but because the other 2 triangles, golden and vehicle, are there to balance your triangle, they maintain a gameplay that is unique. Even without protective health, with easy insta-death, which goes against the dance logic, because players are always at the ready to shoot, melee, nade with the same capacity to react thus a balance is maintained. Even when both players are fragile to a simple shot, because they both have the capability to react, a dance can be maintained. Without it, like Halo 5, you just need to gun down that player on Truth sprinting for cover because running would be too slow to properly traverse movement. Thus again, not equal opportunists but cat and mouse tactics, prey to predator.
Vehicles, while not on every map, provide to enhance the player in one of these ways, more health, more movement, more attack capability. But as rock, paper, scissors go land vehicle beats infantry, air vehicle beats land, and infantry beats air vehicle. unfortunately this is lost in Halo 5 since you can move around like a fighter jet with sprint and thrust with a plasma pistol and not even tank is easily beat. Halo 4 failed too by allowing simple plasma pistol default spawns. stun and plasma nade tag. But in classic, these were very much rock, paper, scissors, with only a small ability to counter like splasers or variation warthogs that can uno reverse the situation. Banshee can beat warthog but gauss warthog can beat banshee more often in a fight.
But it all goes back to the beginning, the dance logic is nothing more then the generics of every arena/fps arena that has ever existed even before Halo. It's that Halo had more levels of triangle balance for every situation to engage with. The fact that DOOM you can jump around more than Reach, 4, 5 shows that the sacrifice for more movement to get to the same place in previous games just to still attack. If you are going at 5 mph and the distance is 5 miles it will take you 1 hour. If I said I can now make you go 10 mph instead you would want that but the plot twist is I make the distance now 10 with this new ability that disables your attack, I have just essentially made it take the same amount of time to traverse but now the track is longer, and now I made you sacrifice the ability to shoot while at it. You are now dependent to maintain same movement but now have to sacrifice more from the others. Halo 5 adding also you can't recharge your shields, unlike 4 or reach, added a more crippling effect too. Again, golden triangle is important and vital to Halo's mechanics in the way of always at the ready multi-directional and no locked animation. Without it, it's more generic than the other Arena Shooters that Halo is associated with. But with the need to pretend to be like cod/battlefield and other games with sprint, it's altered to be some sort of hybrid of wannabe arena still with arcade/classic based shooting with modern mechanics that stripe the balance of what makes halo... halo.
Golden Triangle kept the balance of attack, always at ready, no locked animation, and multi directional movement capable. That's why when sprint was always concepted in classic halo, ce, 2, 3, it never made it to the full game because it didn't belong in it, it broke movement balance and made it way too easy to get across maps while sacrificing attack. And Bungie saying goodbye was a way like saying we don't really need to care about the gameplay mechanics, since it's going backwards in time, we are sacrificing elements and it doesn't matter much since there was no competitive focus, there wasn't even a ranking added til later. It was saying goodbye and just making wacky additions that they normally wouldn't put in a halo game, wasn't meant to be expanded upon on locked animations.
Classic Halo "You can't have one without the other"
Modern Halo "You can have one without the other"
But again, to defeat the whole point of the video to say Halo had this unique dance was in reality a generic arena shooter design other arenas have. If it were for the classic golden triangle and the vehicle combat triangle, Halo would have been generic. It was it's own unique arena shooter then, now it's a hodgepodge of modern and classic gameplay elements trying to be a hybrid but instead neither and those losing it's identity to try and stay relevant by mixing into the modern shooter crowd and the dance being less significant to gameplay all together.
actually more content creators on youtube spend time actually observing the halo design objectively, and every time they say that the community is trying to sell opinion as fact, but the amount of people doing that compared to the amount of people saying that others are doing it dont match up at all. i find it stupid how they try to show themselves off as the one exception, i see your no different
This video makes me realize just how childish Halo Fans can be. I've seen less cancer in the Smash community and that community is basically a tumor with legs at this point. Though I still think Spartan Advanced Mobility, while it's fun and makes for a very interesting Multiplayer experience, just doesn't fit in Halo because it serves no purpose other than making vehicles useless. Despite being just as important to Halo's design as the dance itself.
Halo fans are so misinformed. I had Late Night Gaming tell me that Halo "never was" an arena fps, but a party game instead. Roflmao
@SPORTCENTER I think the term "Sandbox Shooter" would describe Halo better than it just being labeled as an Arena Shooter.
@@papounator8843 besides the weapon carry limit and movement speed (which isn't much of a factor ultimately) it isn't too much fundamentally different than quake or UT. Just different rules.
Vehicles and objects with physics on the map have also been a part of quake and UT, and they're still qualified as arena shooters despite that.
Every game has a "sandbox" doesn't it? That just a term used for the overall balance of things in a game.