Please share your thoughts on what you think is special in YA stories that you would like to see translated into adult stories! Is it the bingeworthy writing? First person POV's? Well rounded female characters? Let me know!
I'm still a sucker for a coming of age story, which can be very difficult to fit in an adult book without it then being classed as this "crossover" type. Think it relates to the point you made about YA protagonists feeling more relatable. Don't me wrong I don't always wanna relate to who I'm reading about, but when I do "YA" does it better more often than not
A lot of YA book I read are books I read in between thicker/heavier books, like LotR or Between the Shades of Grey. I recently read Serpent King which even though it has darker themes is a light read with a cute fluffy romance. It was as enjoyable as the other non-YA books I read.
Rachael S yeah nowadays there does seem to be multiple coming of age stories! The coming of age typical of 16-18 year olds but I think new adults 20-23 go through a similar journey just with different issues if that makes sense. I relate more to ya for this than adult even if it’s not totally the same, in some cases
You enjoy YA because at this particular point in your life you relate to the generic YA protagonist ( a young, attractive female that puts romance as a high priority in her life). When you grow older I dare say you will no longer relate to this trope, simply because your priorities in life will shift. YA isn't bad, just like middle grade or kids books aren't bad. It's just that the target demographic of YA isn't adults. The character arcs that the protagonist go through are usually shallow and involve romance as a main driving theme and motive for the protagonist actions. Yes there are some exceptions, there always are, but I'm just talking about the generic YA novel. In contrast the themes, and characters of most adult novels tend to be different. I dare say that as time goes by you will relate less and less to the YA protagonist and veer more to the adult genre.
I wish New Adult was still a thing publishers try to push. It's a shame that it got the pornographic reputation that it did----& also a shame that that's considered a bad thing. New Adult makes for such a good blend of YA and Adult fantasy that you talk about. Also the early 20's phase of people's life is just as complicated & interesting (if not more so) than teens. I'm not just saying that as a 21 year old who's fantasy book he's writing would have perfectly fit the genre :(
Exactly! I also sometimes feel like YA because of its audience that I've grown from it since I'm 25, but I just finished college and don't feel like reading that many Adult books yet because some talk about marriage problems etc. and I can't relate to that yet.
And also, I still love reading YA (mostly contemporaries though, I've always loved them! Especially coming of age stories) and children's books because of nostalgia, which is also why adults still read YA I think.
Agree! I always feel caught in the middle of a teen and an actual adult (I'm 24) and I wish new adult as a genre would be more than this terrible angsty pornographic college trope.
I don't see the point of the New Adult genre tbh. By the time you're in your twenties, you should be more than capable of reading regular adult books. Most New Adult books I've seen are either thinly veiled erotica, or they're just as shallow as YA books but with slightly older characters and more swearing. Also, plenty of normal "Adult" books deal with characters in their twenties, so it's not like you really need a separate genre for it.
The biggest problem I see is that we are leaving the youngest behind. I would consider myself a still young YA reader, I am 17 and started reading YA at age 12 (2015). I read things that I wouldn't consider apropriate for my age range. And thinking about a 12yo today reading something like ACOMAF (I never read it but I can imagine from reviews) scares me. I would actually like the middle grade (is that the name?) genre to become bigger. YA is full of romance and for me personally it would have been better to not be exposed to so much content that mainly focus on "meeting your soul mate at age 16" because it raised my expectations for reality that never came true. I could have done with 2 more years reading stuff like Harry Potter or Percy Jackson, maybe with a female lead and some age apropriate female struggles. But now I just went from real childrens' books to YA. Another think I see as a potential danger is the YA online community. I got many book recommendations online. But with the community being mainly a decade older than me, I almost read things like the After series because my favourite booktuber liked it and we shared many favourite books. Or take Nevernight, which was really popular under YA readers, so I read it at age 15. I like the series but I could have done one or two more years without it. Idk if this makes any sense, sorry.
I definitely agree, as someone who had nothing left to read in the middle grade genre I started reading YA at around 10/11, which honestly I think was kind of harmful. I was desperate for more complex stories, but the themes discussed in so much YA center around romance, and a lot of YA nowadays tends to be very explicit. While I'm all for normalising sex, I dont think that its necessarily something that needs to be exposed to young readers in such a way. Like ACOMAF is really a problematic read to be targeted at YA readers. The age range for YA is, in my opinion, way too large. Teenagers from 12-18 have vastly different levels of what is considered appropriate. I think booktubers promoting certain books as "YA" can be harmful to younger readers who dont need such explicit/ dark themes discussed so openly in their books. For example, Red White and Royal Blue is technically marketed as New Adult, but the merge of New Adult with Young adult in terms of book recs means that I read that book at an age where I probably shouldnt have (given the explicit sexual scenes). I think that there definitely should be an extension of the middle grade genre, and a clearer and better separation of New and Young Adult in a way that doesnt give NA a bad rep? Darker themed books should also definitely be a part of NA instead of YA, just an opinion!
yesss. i'm on the younger side of YA and I tend to read older books like a THG and The Selection because the books being recommended now are way to explicit for my age. For example, I added ACOTAR to my tbr because it's been recommended to me so many times but then I researched it up and it scared me to see that 12 year olds were saying that it wasn't that sexual and they weren't fazed by it but honestly, I don't know how someone my age could read that and be perfectly fine. It's like now I have to look at reviews to see if it's appropriate for me then get left behind because I can't read that book that everyone is talking about. :(
I agree with you on so many levels. Yes to more Middle-grade books of the same quality as Percy Jackson but with female leads! Yes to abolishing the weird stereotype of meeting your soulmate at age 16! I totally agree that some books won't be beneficial for younger teens because they are dark and potentially too morally ambiguous! But... ACOMAF is actually not a bad book for someone to read if they are still developing a sense of what a healthy relationship should look like. I would even go so far and claim that ACOMAF is better suited for younger teens than the '16year old insta love to the bad boy with some anger issues, but he's nice to me' books. I feel like this book series can teach you many valuable lessons, that most people don't bother with. It dissuades the whole Madonna-whore complex some ya books perpetuate. Most female characters aren't allowed to have several relationships in ya without some (subliminal) shaming. Most ya books don't dare to portray unhealthy relationships, how easily someone might end up in one and the harm this does to a person, let alone how hard it can be to get out and unprogram the weird thing that person made you believe. ACOTAR does just that. Furthermore, it displays toxic sibling relationships, something that doesn't exist in other books. Of course, adding in an intricate, effed up family dynamic makes writing a good plot and character development harder. But those things exist in real life. I honestly think that art needs to imitate reality in that sense because we don't want teens with less than ideal family dynamics to feel isolated and abnormal. In the real world, most people deal with this to some degree and still become responsible adults and conquer challenges. If you meant to say that ACOMAF shouldn't be read by a 12 year old because of the sexual content, let me just tell you that sheltering kids from sexual content doesn't work. Sadly enough, we live an age in which 12 year olds have access to pornography and generally use this access to learn about a topic that is very intriguing due to its taboo status. I know, no one wants to think about it, but that's the sad reality. (for reference, I'm a psychology student that volunteers with an organization bringing quality sex ed to schools, so I actually do know what I am talking about when I say that young teens and even middle school children seek out sexual content). I am a lot more comfortable with a 12 year old's first encounter with sexual content being ACOMAF than a gangbang porn clip. ACOMAF would teach the teen girl reading it that it's okay to have a casual sexual relationship as long as both parties are consenting and enjoying it. No need for shame. It would teach them about consent (the absence thereof and the muddled grey area that does exist). But these, morally ambiguous instances are presented clearly enough, that the reader questions them, so there's no room for misunderstandings. And when we get to the wonderful healthy relationship two of the main characters develop in the books, the kid reading ACOMAF would get to see a wonderful (imperfect) example of helping each other grow, not forcing a relationship but letting it develop. It's a wonderful, loving, appreciative and mutually beneficial relationship that openly deals with (most) of the issues they face together. We see fluffy, nice moments, we see stressed moments, we see disagreements, fights and betrayal of trust. But we also see how a healthy relationship can sustain all of that and grow. Now, to address the elephant in the room: Yes there's sex, yes it's steamy. They are having fun, celebrating life and their love for each other, so why not. It is consensual, it doesn't portray anything that would somehow damage a young girl's understanding of what sex generally can be like (hmm, gangbang videos....). So why not? Sex would be presented in a loving, safe context with room for enjoyment and dignity. All of which are lacking in mainstream porn. edit: spelling, formating
While these aren't female led, I found books such as the Gone series and Eragon to be really good sort of stepping stones into YA fantasy when I was younger. I would also say that the Lunar Chronicles would have been a good option if it had been around. There are definitely some good ones out there, but there just haven't really been any in a long time. Personally, I think that it might be a case of adding more mature themes to these 'middle grade' novels (like percy jackson), because I definitely think kids now are a lot more mature than they use to be. I was reading 'YA' books at around 11, as much of my class were, so I definitely think rhe publishing industry might need a revamp.
A huge part of the "YA vibe" that I have trouble finding in adult fantasy (at least so far) is found family. Six of crows, harry potter, percy jackson, tamora pierce, even children's shows like avatar the last airbender, all have amazing tight-knit friend groups, and while some adult fantasy (such as the gentlemen bastards series) does also have this, it's usually not the focus. I want those warm and fuzzy friendship feelings, dangit!
I totally agree with you. I read books generally for fun, and, when people trash books I love or genres I enjoy, it takes a lot of fun out of the process, causing me to go into crisis reading slumps. I’ve read some bad, mediocre, and good YA, just as I’ve read some bad, mediocre, and good adult fiction. The same goes for classics and other genres that aren’t age related. If you’re genuinely enjoying yourself, go wild. I’ve read 2 star books that were really fun. I also like having a wide variety but I also get sticking to one age range. I’m 19 so I’m in the middle of a bunch of different age ranges and I like seeing what’s popular across ages.
absolutely agree here. I've read so many books that a lot of people would probably consider to be bad, but I had fun with them so I really don't care. I've had fun with certain classics, while others have sucked, I've had fun with certain adult books, while others have sucked. And the same can be said for YA. I really just utterly believe that life is too short not to have fun with what you're reading.... So there's really no reason for us to put all our effort into reading something only because it has "deeper meaning" or is "serious literature" if we're not going to enjoy that challenge.
@@ughhhasif2994 True, but I think the point here is that we shouldn't be shaming people for what they enjoy. It's very easy to express how you don't like something and not shame the people who do like it at the same time.
Another thing to point out about adults today reading YA is that diversity in today's YA is incredible, it is probably the genre with the most diversity out there, and is miles better than anything anyone over 20 ever grew up with. This leads to a lot of for example LGBT adults reading YA, because they finally get stories with characters that represent them, stories they never got access to as children or teenagers.
@Jack Bran lmao read my comment again because I never claimed it was better in quality, only better in terms of diversity. The diversity seen in YA today is better, as in there is more representation, than YA in the past or other genres today. I said nothing of quality 🙄 You see what you want to see I guess, trying to create an argument that wasn't there lmao. Hope you have a good day.
Yeah, the problem with all that. Is that they fixed the diversity, but then removed passionate and healthy relationships for abusive stereotypes and love triangles. Its really important that all these new people being pulled in by diversity and all this brand new life to the book world. That they are not being told when they are young and haven't had their first love yet. Or a deep intense lasting love, that the abuse they see is what they should look for in a happy, healthy relationships. Because it has become so horrible the past few years. And the adaptations are getting horrible because the source material is bad.
YES YES YES. I've heard its really hard for women to break into adult fantasy and sci-fi in publishing, and that a lot of authors we know tried to get into it but were denied, so they went to YA and blew up there. So I hope adult stops gatekeeping so much, because I would love to read about complex women who deal with mature stuff -- and seem REAL.
Personally, I find it to be a difference between concept driven fantasy and character driven fantasy. I've noticed that adult fantasy is focused more on larger concepts, so sometimes the characters don't feel as fleshed out or as engaging. Likewise, I struggle with YA because a number of YA books don't always fully give their concept justice - they have a great idea initially but they're too focused on the characters to see it to a satisfying conclusion. This is certainly not true for all books on either side, but it's a common theme I noticed. I personally want a middle ground between the two for fantasy AND sci fi, which is why I don't have the patience right now for any fantasy or sci fi books, and partly why I haven't read any books in a while. They're my favorite genres in television but I can't find any series that give me the same satisfaction.
I disagree. In fact the most popular adult books from authors like Stephen King, George R.R. Martin and Joe Abercrombie, are all character driven stories. The main difference between YA and Adult is 1. the themes that the books explore, 2. the character voice (the unique way characters see the world and react to events) and 3. the prose. YA characters explore teenage themes like coming of age, believing in yourself, first love and all that jazz; YA books have teenage angst character voices, they're always rebels trying to change society for the better (very naive teenage way of thinking); and YA books tend to have simple, almost middle-grade level prose. That's not to say that adult books are superior, but well done adult books explore much more complex themes than YA. A Song of Ice and Fire series is much more complex in themes, character arcs and prose than a Throne of Glass series. Sorry but the character arcs in most YA books are just shallow. Usually the protagonist is just some Marry Sue that is a perfect snowflake that doesn't need to change because its society that's wrong and needs to change not her. Also the level of prose in YA is almost middle-grade level. I'm not asking for Shakespeare, I'm just asking for authors to not go around calling people Alpha-holes. As you probably guessed I'm not a fan of YA. It's just not a genre that's written for me.
@@JerodimusPrime honestly, your point also rings true to me, but I'm not convinced I'm wrong either (at least on a personal level). It's been years since I've found a YA book that has appealed to me. However, the few that have are focused around the characters in the series, whereas if I look at the stories with the most compelling plots, I'm finding they usually don't live up to that (but probably because, as you put it, they're more shallow conceptually). I will have to take your word on Thrones of Glass; I've never read it. I personally have not found luck with finding adult series that are character driven enough, and I personally need characters to cling to to get hooked. I don't disagree that GRRM writes character driven stories, and I also don't question that they're good, but the chunks that I've managed to slog through have felt more like history books. I have nothing wrong with that, but I'm struggling to read after grad school burnout, and that does not work for my attention span unless I'm invested in at least one character. I also don't really find Stephen King's stories appealing. But I really do want to tackle some stories with complex world building and concepts; I just haven't found any that can keep my focus. Do you have any suggestions of good character driven fantasy (or sci fi, because I really don't know where to start with sci fi)? I know Brandon Sanderson is beloved and he's on my list to tackle once I get past my burnout, but I would love other suggestions.
@@rebeccacrow9013 Try anything from Joe Abercrombie "The Blade Itself" is his first book and is a bit slow but that's because its act 1 in a trilogy. There's also "Red Sister" by Mark Lawrence, that's also the first in a trilogy and has a female protagonist. There's also "The Name of the Wind" by Patrick Rothfuss. It's highly praised, but the second book is not as praised. If you prefer a female author, there's N.K. Jemisin, her book "The Fifth Season" is highly praised. There's also "Ninth House" by Leigh Bardugo this is her adult book, usually she does YA.
JerodimusPrime thanks for the suggestions!! I have heard of Leigh Bardugo and know she's probably not for me - I've tried Six of Crows multiple times and can't get invested in it at all - and I've heard about the Fifth Season from PeruseProject, but I've never heard of the others, so I will add them to my list! Thanks! :) Also, for me, the gender of the character or writer doesn't really matter in whether I find it appealing. I've just not had luck in finding stories that balance character growth and worldbuilding and plot development successfully (although I'm not implying Game of Thrones doesn't, that one I just have an issue with how slow the beginning is). I've had a lot of luck with finding fantasy and sci fi shows that hit that balance a lot more consistently (such as Firefly, the recent Battlestar Galactica, Avatar the Last Airbender, The Good Place, Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood, etc.), and that is not transferring to books in a way I want it to. That's more what I'm trying to get at.
@@rebeccacrow9013 Brendon Sanderson is really good at fantasy, his Mistborn series is loved by almost everyone. Have you also tried the Black Magician Saga by Trudi Canavan? It's YA but it's one of the few YA series I actually love.If you're into urbun low fantasy, there's also the Dresden Files books. I'm a huge fan of them, they're kind of like the Supernatural TV show, but a bit more grown up. BTW I'm a huge fan of all the TV shows you mentioned, good taste in TV.
ive been thinking about how to say this for a bit, I agreed with what you said about romance in YA, but I think that it can be harmful for EVERY SINGLE BOOK to have a romance bc it almost teaches teens (at a very critical point in their life) that if they dont have a romance they arent the norm. I just wish that there could be more variety of romances and in that variety there could be books were people dont have romances or more where the romance isnt "the one". maybe im just a cranky old skeptic...
no need for the 'almost' to me, id feel confident saying it definitely teaches them that. i grew up reading most of the typical YA fantasy/sci-fi i could get my hands on. as you said, just about every single book was consumed by some bland love at first sight romance amidst a global apocalypse lmao. i was boy-crazy basically as far back as i can remember, and at 25 im still unsure how much that may have been influenced by my constantly being immersed in worlds where the most important thing to the young female protagonist was which of the super hot guys that were all desperately into her was her one true love (global apocalypse was a close second though). i at least was somewhat of a realist so i didnt expect any different, but when i ended up dating at 16 and having a truly blissfully happy and fulfilling relationship for years, i was kind of like huh, interesting that even though i am definitely in love with this wonderful man who makes me so happy everyday and whom i could not love more, im not quite getting the electric lightning shooting up my arm when his hand brushes mine, or our love conquering all obstacles on earth like all those books seemed to promise lol. at every point in my life including (and perhaps most prominently) now, ive had friends that were very insecure about not having much or any dating experience, and i dont think its a coincidence that its mostly concentrated in the ones that grew up on YA books. the YA lit industry as a whole places an insane amount of importance on romance (and specifically the be-all-end-all soulmates at 16 variety), movies and tv for the same age group dont even compare. at the very least, i think this leaves preteens and teenagers (and lets be real, mostly girls) that read a lot constantly thinking about dating and romance and being in love, and being in love the right /way/, when its obviously just not very important lmao. and at worst, i would imagine it gives a lot of kids the wrong expectations and raises them to be insecure about a lot of things surrounding romance and relationships. it certainly propped up and helped along my boy obsession, and i theorise it was also partially responsible for my not even realising that im bisexual until like seven YEARS after i probably should have, because all i had read were dozens of books about the same girl and boy getting together despite barely knowing each other, that i didnt even really conceptualise that there were any other experiences out there lol. id say that this means that maybe middle-grade should be invested in more, as youd think it would be less romance-focused, but even then we know how hp and percy jackson end. it really seems like theres nowhere to turn for kids to find a character going about their business while remaining single in a book aimed at anyone 11-18 which is just absurd.
This is very true. Aromatic/asexual teens need books without romance or kissing/sex in it just to show them that "hey, you dont need to fall in love with every hot guy to be normal". As a lesbian, i found more enjoyment in books with no romance plot, than books with the same cishet relationship subplot. If every book marketed to teens is saturated with straight romanc plots, many people who are either not straight, who are aromatic or asexual, or even teens who dont find anyone attractive just yet in their lives, start to feel like something is wrong with them. And no teen should ever feel that way.
honestly, this video convinced me to finally subscribe to your channel :) i love this discourse and the ideas you brought up, but i just wish you had gone a bit more into "the elephant in the room", because i feel like that's the big discussion that people often shy away from and, as a result, we keep going in circles with this "YA bad??" discussion and not getting anywhere. this is my opinion (and straight away i wanna clarify that i'm very aware gender is a complex thing and the world is not as black and white as it may seem with what i'm saying, but i do think the publishing industry still struggles in certain genres with these very outdated notions re: "women vs. men"): it NEEDS to be acknowledged that, whether we want to bring gender into it or not, adult fantasy/sci-fi books have ALWAYS been mostly written by men and FOR male audiences, while YA fantasy/sci-fi is largely dominated by women and targeted towards women. there may be exceptions, of course, but generally speaking we all know this is a fact. and just like the adult books haven't branched out to welcome more female readers, the YA books haven't branched out to welcome male readers. at the end of the day, that's why you can't find anything in the adult fantasy book world that appeals to you, and why Daniel Greene can't find anything in YA for him. this needs to be addressed and called for what it is. i completely agree with you when you say that sometimes you just wanna read something for fun, i agree that's what draws so many people to some YA books (myself included), but i also feel like minimizing "the problem with YA" to how they're written and whether or not they're very "dark", kinda feels like we're actually just adding to this notion that "oh women just don't like complex stories, complex writing and mature themes". which is not true!!! because, yes, we may like shitty books just for enjoyment sometimes, but i'm sure men do too, perhaps just in a different sense of the word "shitty". but of course (as you briefly mentioned as well) things that are marketed towards women are usually viewed as "dumb". what i'm trying to say is, as a woman i've enjoyed my fair share of cheesy YA fantasy books just for fun, fully aware that they're not masterpieces and i'm okay with that. i've also enjoyed really good YA fantasy that pushes the boundaries a little bit (SOC comes to mind). however, when it comes to adult fantasy, as much as i want to get into it, my demands are just not being met with what is out there in the market right now. because, YES, the adult fantasy demographic is still very much male-focused. sorry not sorry but i don't really wanna sit through George R.R. Martin writing shitty female characters for 7 books. i'm not the target market and that's just the truth. but the excellent point that you brought up is this: why does YA have to be the one to change? how much further can it go? bottom line, i think YA fantasy could benefit from being more male-reader-friendly, but certainly it's not the only "guilty" side here. adult fantasy could definitely be much more appealing if it actually had, perhaps, more female writers or at least didn't STILL feel like this very "bro-ey bro" ground. but this is something publishers worldwide need to work on, because it all comes down to how they market books. i really hope now with Leigh bardugo the true queen of YA fantasy branching out into adult fantasy, things will start to shift. hope this made sense xx
This is so true, female writers have such a hard time trying to enter the adult book scene, i really think Leigh Bardugo, Sarah J Maas and V.E only did it because they have books in the Y.A that are best-sellers so the publishers thought "why not?" and let them expand their work to the adult scene to see if it worked
this is such a great discussion. i also agree that ya doesn't have to be deep to be valued. a lot of my favorite books will never go on to be considered literary masterpieces as classics, and that's okay! I love classics too! I don't know why people insult 'fun' books - don't we watch movies for fun sometimes? It's not like the same people making that argument exclusively watch documentaries - Disney Princess movies are "for children" but are beloved by adults. They can be enjoyed beyond their targeted demographic, same with books. I actually agreed with a lot of Daniel's points and I think he presented them in a nicer and more respectful way than most of these YA commentary videos I have seen. I do think he was lacking some context on modern YA, but that was the only main fault I found in his video, and I recommended in the comments that he look into Naomi Novik's books which are YA/adult and bend a lot of the tropes that bother him. I also wish he talked to some YA readers to pull in the whole YA/NA argument because I think that was a point he was trying to touch on but didn't hit 100%.
I think our lives are already so stressful and complicated so YA books are great because they are faster paced and straightforward ('simple') because we can relax better while also identifying with the problems when we read YA books 🙈
I really loved this discussion. I remember ages ago Emma from Emmmabooks did a "why I read YA" video and a big reason for her is that she can more easily relate to YA characters than "adult" characters because of the stage of life that a lot of us are in right now fits closer to a teenager than say a 30-40 year old. We're all still trying to find our feet and don't feel as "established" as an adult. With this I completely agree with what you said YA and adult romance vs YA and adult fantasy.
What annoys me about YA is how obviously targeted towards women it is. It's not at all accessible to men and I think that's what the "annoyed about romance thing" plays into so hard. A lot of young guys dont give a crap about romance, and I have read one single YA series that is focused on a male main character. I personally wish there were more male characters in YA. I'm not saying theres something wrong with romance but I am saying that publishers do NOT think about overall accessibility towards everyone in a certain age range. I think Daniel touched on this in your guys' chat. Young boys often jump over YA and get into adult long before that type of content is age appropriate because it doesnt often have romance and appeals more to their interests.
I’ve found that a a lot of YA with male protagonists are from the late 90s and early 2000s. In ms and hs I didn’t like romance so I looked for realistic fiction. Whatever plots suited my fancy from my school and local library were male-lead and published in the 2000s
I have to admit that if I were a reader in my teenage years I would have loved YA. I say this because I watched a lot of romance movies as a child. But now as a grown up my taste has changed to science fiction books. It would be nice though if more YA would focus on male protagonists, maybe I would pick one up now.
Love this! I totally agree that it was an easy shift from YA contemporary to adult contemporary but adult fantasy is often just not the same. Also, this is so, so shallow but.... aesthetic. I’m a “book by its cover” gal and so much adult fantasy doesn’t attract me because it just doesn’t look appealing.
I agree about how fantasy used to be so much more male focused and I love fantasy and reading books written by women and seeing successful women authors since one of my goals is to publish a book. I was thinking through my favorite fantasy authors and most of the ya authors are women and most of the adult fantasy authors are men. I think that we need to accept that women want to read books about women by women, just like men want to read books about men by men, and that everyone deserves representation and if ya is what provides it, then that is what people will read.
Young ADult = English speakers from England (generally as obviously there are exceptions with dialect etc.etc.etc) Young adULT = American English speakers, again very generally! I'm from England for reference❤
The idea that instead of YA expanding to it’s breaking point, Adult genre should also help with readers having a smooth transition makes so much sense to me. I think it’s slowly happening with with books like Vicious/Shades of Magic, The Name of the Wind, Ninth House etc. But it’s still mostly YA authors writing adult books. Idk, but points were made in this video haha
The one thing I am always looking for in adult fantasy, but have a hard time finding is women. That's actually the only reason why I am often put of by popular adult fantasy, especially epic fantasy. Female characters with importance to the story, female characters that are nuanced, well written and feel real. It makes me so mad when I read good bocks, but keep thinking "Where are the women? Surely there are women in this world than your mom, your love interest that only exists when you feel bored and a maid?" I am aware that for some reason (especially male) fantasy authors like to base their fantasy world somewhere in the past, predominantly in the middle ages. But they still modify a lot that would be authentic for that time period to fit their characters and plot. SO why not go that extra step and have a not completely oppressed female character? Why not share the spotlight of your 4 male main characters with AT LEAST one woman? Even back then, there were women that rebelled against social norms or managed to care out some sense of importance and power for themselves. They still had personalities! I have to wonder why it is that especially male authors in adult fantasy feel the need to further portray the social oppression of women in their books. Sure it creates a convenient struggle for a female character if you bother to give her a tiny little bit of storyline. But beyond that, I actually don't see any reason why it would be necessary, especially if it has nothing whatsoever to do with your plot. That's why I always come back to ya fantasy. I don't need to read about characters being condescending to women or dismissing them in my free time. Real-life already does this.
Yeah, that's a problem happening too often in adult fantasy, and one that really grates with me. One solution would be reading AF written by women. V. E. Schwab, Samantha Shannon, N. K. Jemisin, R. F. Kuang, Robin Hobb Some men do a fine job as well. Stormlight Archive, ASOIAF, most of the stuff by Neil Gaiman
YES! Or even if (as you noted, by authorial choice) the society in their world puts constraints on women, they still EXIST. They're still people with complex thoughts, feelings, and motivations. I see so much praise for Joe Abercrombie's First Law trilogy, but I literally quit the series over this issue.
@@StarryEyed0590Well Joe Abercombie's First Law stand lone: Best Served Cold's main protagonist is a Women. The're are main characters that are Women in A Little Hatred Also.
@@ZamWeazle I know that Joe Abercrombie does have some female MCs. I read the first two books of the First Law trilogy. I think Vitari is a fine character, and I appreciated the fact that named female characters with lines of dialogue basically doubled from the first book to the second book (3 to 6, but still), but it doesn't make up for the fact that, at least in the books I read, women are treated as an afterthought, either faceless masses or as rare, special snowflakes. Every single female character in Before They are Hanged was a love interest of some kind for at least one male character. Over two-thirds of them had previously been raped. The story was not truly interested in their experiences, and rarely gave them any agency. (Only Ferro had any real agency, and the way her sexual abuse survivor storyline was handled made me very frustrated) They were primarily treated as accessories to a man's world.
@@StarryEyed0590 I see your Point. Maybe try out Mark Lawrence's Book of the Ancestor series! Its charaters are pretty much All women and he's a terrific writer.
I work in a library in the youth service department and one of my jobs is to purchase the YA books that go into our collection. I've been doing this for about two and a half years now and I recently had a coworker tell me that since I started ordering, our YA collection has become a lot "older". Now, I live in a very conservative town where the Percy Jackson series is considered YA because of the LGBTQIA+ themes present in later books (which is another issue entirely). So when I began ordering things like Wilder Girls that had darker tones it really did change the feel of our collection. My response to this to anyone who asked is that I haven't been specifically seeking out these "older" titles, I've just been ordering what is popular and what the majority people are talking about. I do wish there was an in-between for readers that want to branch out of YA but feel intimidated by adult fantasy. The "New Adult" genre is such a great idea, but I think at this point there is a notion that New Adult books are those steamy romances. It would be great if we could grow that genre to include fantasy/other genres as well.
I agree with so much of what you’ve said in this video. I’m definitely going to subscribe! And like you said: if YA grows with it’s audience...the actual audience for YA will be left behind. YA needs to be there for the 13-14-15-16-17 year olds who need it most. The end of the day, YA isn’t for the 20-21-22-23-24 year old. Obviously you can read YA as an adult but is it for you? And I don’t know if it’s been mentioned but YA is also far more diverse than adult. From having more characters of color, queer characters, characters from other religion than Christianity and so much more, YA has so much to offer. Like you also said, we often don’t give a lot of credit to things liked by women/children/younger people.
I completely agree that something missing with adult fantasy for me is the "YA vibe". For me, that is definitely books about women and by women authors. It's super frustrating to look through so many recommendation videos and see the same men writing war stories with magic recommended again and again. On the other hand, I do tend to read more adult books rather than YA because in my opinion I feel like YA fantasies can get really repetitive? Many of them play with the same or similar tropes, character dynamics, etc, whereas adult fantasy seems to me to be more able to try new things. THEN AGAIN, lately the best fantasies I've been reading are middle grade!! So who knows!!
piscespaperbacks That‘s exactly, what I‘m experiencing as a fantasy lover! Always thought, I was just to picky with what I like and what I don‘t like...
I'm all for everyone reading whatever they want. If someone is 13 and wants to read cozy mysteries that are stereotyped as being for retirees, or someone is 70 and wants to read middle grade sports stories, more power to them! 😃 But the one element of this discussion that I don't understand is the claim that adult fiction doesn't offer the same themes as YA, or that it lacks the uplifting endings. A lot of "chick-lit" (which isn't a great label, but it is what it is) is essentially the same as a YA contemporary or YA romance, just with slightly older characters. When people say that adult fantasy doesn't include romance, they're just looking in the wrong genre section since romantic fantasy exists, it's just generally shelved as a romance sub-genre rather than a fantasy one. The oddest claim I've seen is that adult fiction is less diverse, and whenever I see that claim I suspect the person saying that hasn't looked very hard. Because demographics aren't used in the marketing in the same way (at least outside of romance) but that doesn't mean the content isn't there!
I think your big point is that some of the major complaints daniel had were features of YA and not bugs. And I think that is absolutely valid. It's like I dont always want to watch a dark, complex, artsy movie. Sometimes I just want something light hearted.
So, I'm actually taking a young adult literature class right now, and there's this whole conversation about the differences between early young adult literature that was considered classic and groundbreaking (Are You There God? It's Me Margaret by Judy Blume, Speak by Laurie Halse Anderson, etc) and the young adult novels being written now. In a lot of early YA it was more about creating novels that talk about necessary realities of adolescent life, because like you talked about, it's more of a marketing term in a lot of ways now. I've found myself disagreeing with some of the scholars that have looked into YA literature-- for me, I think the "vibe" mainly relies upon themes of self discovery, or coming to terms with yourself. In books like Ninth House, it has a YA vibe because it's about a strong female character coming to terms with the decisions she's made, the person she was, and the person she wants to be. In Vicious (which I haven't read, I'm basing this statement off of summaries), you have two characters dealing with who they were versus who they have become. I think what makes YA so appealing is because it focuses on individuality. Like you said, it turns very real struggles and presents them in interesting ways, often involved with how you, as an individual, interact with the world around you. This is such a hot topic and I'm really glad to see you taking such an informed and individual stance and opening it up for kind and respectful debate. Another reason why you've quickly become one of my favorites! (Also gives me a chance to rant about books in this social distancing age)
I’m only 10 mins in and you did this so much better than I would have. I loveee how Balanced this video is. I love that you brought up preference. I’m watching the hunger games currently and it’s reminding me so much of how incredibly complex the character relationships are. Wow you have some incredible thoughts here WOW
You're so well-spoken! I couldn't have said any of this better myself and I think it's such an interesting conversation because there have been a lot of differing opinions as of late.
i was really struggling how to feel about Daniel Greens video and his points, but after watching your video i finally can make sense of my thoughts. love the video it was great. i would love to see you and Daniel green have a discussion.
I totally agree, I often try to read adult fantasy and it usually feels really "blunt"... The plot just doesn't have the same appeal of YA novels to me and female representation definitely plays a role in it! I wish there was a kind of mix between YA and adult fantasy that could appeal to adults with a taste that doesn't completely allign with the classical Tolkien-esque fantasy style Also the "confused non-native speaker" part 😂😂 I really felt that
I feel like they tried to adapt through New adult books but it became only a genre for college romance instead of proposing other genres with characters that are about 20 years old. I agree with most of what you say here even if I never really thought about it before. I tend to read what interests me without paying attention if it's YA or Adult
I feel like, where YA fantasy is saturated with romance, adult fantasy doesn't really have any at all. Or if they do it's bad and just to push the plot. Not that romance shouldn't be important to the plot but...you know what I mean. Either a lack of romance or a lack of really character focused narratives throws me off. I feel like adult fantasy is usually very plot heavy and all world building which isn't a bad thing, I obviously want a good plot and world, but characters make stories for me and when there aren't a ton of character moments I feel myself losing interest quickly. I want really fleshed out relationships between characters and YA more easily provides this. YA tends to focus more on what the characters are feeling and how they interact with each other. I hope this made sense.
I'm not a big YA reader, mostly because I feel they tend to have a distinct writing style I'm not into. But I have some YA that I love! I also can't stand romances, but it's not just YA, I also don't like romance in adult books either. With the little fantasy I read, I agree with your analysis. Another author that I think does well with branching across "ages" in writing and stories is Brandon Sanderson. Also, both forms of 'adult' are correct 😁
Something that I do when I go to read a book, is I try not to think about if it's YA or not. I read books that I think I will enjoy, it just so happens to mostly be YA books. Mark Lawerence's Book of the Ancestor series is a great series that could bring in more readers who typically read YA.
Wow Leonie! This is a difficult (but interresting) topic and i think you really nailed it!! This was a proper analasys about a genre and you really hit every aspect of it without pushing your own like's and dislike's onto other people! Well done!
It's so true YA gets people into reading as a hobby which is the true strength whether you continue to read YA or move past it. YA actually amalgamated so many different sub-genres that later on we can choose which sub-genre we might choose as the main genres. Like six of crows might get people into more of the heist theme as the main theme of a book or relationships/friendships books.
I think the new adult genre needs revamped for the people who read between adult and YA, like I think there should be a distinction of the target audiences between 13-18 bc 13 year olds are very different from 18 year olds. Maybe the books that are “targeted” to YA but read a little older (like Six of Crows and ACOTAR) should be new adult
The books should be marketed as teen (11-18) eg Becky Albertali, Harry Potter, The Cruel Prince, To all the Boys I’ve Loved Before, Taran Matharu or young adult (16-24) eg Sarah J Maas, Rainbow Rowell, Adam Silvera, V E Schwab, Red White and Royal Blue with those ages as the target audiences. It’s fine for an author to grow with their audience, but at the end of the day YA is meant to be a targeted age range rather than a genre. This would allow for YA to grow and develop while teen would stay true to its roots. It’s okay for 33 year old Sheila to read YA novels but it’s not okay that she has more influence on YA as it is than actual teenagers.
I really appreciated all the thorough reasons you bring up in your discussion of this "YA bad????" issue. I personally avoided YA in high school under the misconception that all YA was "for kids" and therefore not valuable reading material. (Granted, this was during an era where paranormal romance, a genre I did not care for, reigned supreme) It took 10 years for me to return to YA and realize how biased and ignorant I was being. And honestly? It was because of my students. They were the ones who got me into reading series and books I never would have otherwise, and then when I read Fangirl by Rainbow Rowell, it further cemented my newly-found appreciation for YA.
I was so scared this would be a rebuttal type video bc i'm a huge fan of Daniel Greene's videos and I'm not gonna lie, my initial thought when I saw this video come up on my subs was "oh no, another video where someone's offended about people not liking YA" but I took a chance omg i am so so so happy this was not what I thought. Loved this video Leonie and I really appreciate how you framed it like a discussion, because that's exactly what this is! and you're right, it largely comes down to preference. You made excellent points and i completely agree with you about ya fantasy readers not finding what they're looking for in the adult fantasy genre, making it hard for them to transition. I would say the adult fantasy genre is getting better in this regard, especially with authors like Brandon Sanderson and V.E. Schwab etc, but completely agree with you. I could go on lmao but just wanted to say, I loved all your points and thank you for a great video
Daniel Green praised Shadiversity's book just for the cloud (The hero use to be the villain, and the story is about him redeeming himself, He tells a woman that redistribution of wealth is theft and kills her, showing now that he was now better bc he used to think like her) And put Jenna Moreci's book on his worst reads, which is a basic fantasy book, well written but nothing special. He seems to praise what his male audience "respects" and considers that "dark themes" is what makes a book good,
I actually made a video reaction on Daniel's video too! He did make some generalisations but I think he made a lot of good points about the trends in popular YA fantasy I completely agree with you! It's a such shame that some people think books need to be 'complicated' or 'deep' to have any value! Especially because like you said everyone has different preferences! Sometimes a good YA fantasy is exactly what I'm in the mood for and I actually think romance is done better in YA!! I think New Adult could become a really important bridge between the two, right now I find it pretty hard to distinguish between them because YA is constantly changing
I also think, for readers who ARE teenagers and the literal Young Adults, why do they need to be reading these so called complex and ambiguous novels anyway? For a 16 year old those ARE the complex, ambiguous novels because they are more likely to relate to the topics and themes of love, betrayal, sharp feelings etc. Don’t condescend to a person who is has every right to enjoy these books. There are books I read today as a 30 year old that I could not have enjoyed as a 16 year old. And as you say there are plenty of themes and ideas one can take away from any reading experience. I did a writing degree and it upset me how there was a pretty outspoken hierarchy of Literature and people smirked at certain titles or authors. One class my friend was pleasantly surprised when I said one of my favourite books (at the time) was Secret Dreamworld of a Shopaholic, a rom com. She found it refreshing, rather than me just saying something more ‘respectable’ to keep face. At the end of the day, read what makes you happy, and while I agree that YA reaches a wider audience than just literal Young Adults, don’t diminish the reading experience for those young adults by saying their literature is less than something else.
You bring an excellent argument regarding the "growing with the audience" point. I would like to expand it a tad more and say that the fact that YA authors who often toy with the line between *YA* and *adult* by writing these hybrid books are currently having great success with their adult books (maybe) because they might be growing out of it themselves. By having a book branded and marketed by publishers as YA, authors might be prevented from exploring certain themes or issues, or even it might prevent them from writing a certain scene or arc the way they initially wanted. Take Sarah J. Maas' Crescent City book; because it was marketed as a "fully" adult book, everyone expected it to be a total smut fest (and I mean, yeah) yet there is a main character that got trauma & depression and a hella ton of other issues going on. Or Leigh Bardugo, who writes YA fantasy that's on the darker side and still went FULLY dark on her adult book without blinking a lash. And more YA authors have announced adult books coming up, like Cassandra Clare and Samantha Shannon. The only author that comes to mind that moves between genre/marketing lines somewhat fluidly (other than Branson Sanderson & Jay Kristoff, signaling the gender point you bring at the end) is V E Schwab, and she does manage to bring up certain topics in her stories while staying more grounded within the publishing limitations, I think. That's my hot take. Thanks.
What a great video! I completely agree with your points on marketing/reader ages/genre expectations. I always get looked at funny when I say I love YA books best, even at 24. It's not about ranking genres, it's about loving books!
I love this video. I agree with so much of this. When I was a teen i loved Ya because it bridged that gap for me from middle grade to adult. And for the contemporary genre i struggled to make the transition from ya contemporary to adult because a lot of the themes didnt apply to me and I didnt relate to the characters as much until I was in my late 20s. As for fantasy, i have a hard time finding fantasy books that i find as enjoyable as I did when I was reading ya fantasy and maybe I'm not finding the right books. I do agree that ya shouldn't grow with the audience like that's why we have adult fiction.
This was such a good video! As a bookseller, I can already see how much the YA market has changed the fantasy market. I like that you bring up gendered issues (like how adult fantasy was/is marketed mostly to men and YA fantasy is marketed mostly to girls/women) and I think you can also see this with racial and queer stories too. Recently I've even seen diverse authors of adult speculative fiction start to write for YA too because there's so much room for diversity there. But I think adult fantasy will grow this way too as publishers see how well the newer adult fantasies with the "YA vibe" do. I'm here for it honestly. There are also some really good older adult fantasy titles written by women out there that I think would appeal to YA readers who want to read some adult fantasy. Octavia E Butler and Robin Hobb are my faves!
I'm late to the party on this, but I thought this was a great analysis, well balanced and fair. You also brought up some interesting things I've never really thought about before - such as adult and YA contemporary being very similar in genre, just aimed at different age groups; whereas YA fantasy and adult fantasy do feel like totally separate genres beyond merely the age of the audiences they're marketed at. You're spot on with that. Fab video.
Update: Just finished watching the video & you address the 🐘 in the room but definitely think it’s a huge part of the issue. I also think a lot of the criticism aimed at YA literature and YA readers often has misogynistic undertones to it. YA is often read by young women (not only though obvs) and that’s wrongfully coded as inferior in the same way that the readers themselves are often labelled. Patriarchy heh. Really interesting video! 📚
Carlijn P Carlijn P This is a societal issue which publishers react to rather than the other way around. When editing, designing the cover, creating a marketing campaign (and everything else that goes into making a book) you analyse the demographic of readers that we have the data for and look at competitive titles for comparison which often means these books stay in YA. At the end of the day we want to sell our books and we need to reach as many readers as possible (including the general public, outside of bookish circles) and this may be sticking with an already established genre and look. I work in Marketing in a big publishing company so I can only speak from my experience!
Carlijn P Also so much blame for this gets put on people in marketing but trust me we do not have as much power as people think we do haha - these are all editorial decisions 😂
In general I also see this trend that guys seem to prefer that their books have good complex world building and plot heavy things while girls have a preference for character dynamics and character growth which includes romance. I feel like that contributes to women perferring YA and men liking Adult books
Claire Fenby if you compare what female booktubers like about a book and what male booktubers like, that's exactly the kind of the thing I've found in common tbh, but ofc I'm not speaking for everyone, I myself for example don't like romance as much and prefer books to have both kinds of the aforementioned elements in balance. But most of my girl friends who read, really enjoy and don't mind when romance is on focus, they like character driven stories. Just pointing out an observation, you might observed differently based on your experiences idk
honestly like you said it's all about preferences, if you like something read it, your age or whatever shouldn't determine how much you enjoy things. and just cause something isn't serious or dark doesn't mean it's bad it just is what it is. a lot of people translate them not enjoying something to it being bad, while in reality it just wasn't for them and that's fine.
As someone who's read both YA and Adult fantasy since the age of 12 I find these discussions fascinating and agree with a lot from both sides! I like the points you bring up about adult fantasy not catering so much for that 'YA vibe', I've never really heard anyone else bring that issue up that maybe the adult genre needs to change and cater for these readers instead of the other way around. If I'm picking up a YA fantasy I go into it expecting just a fun ride with some teenage angst. I came over from Daniel's channel and subscribed coz I really like your content, so hi from Australia :)
Daniel Greene watcher here. You have made a subscriber out of me. I am an avid adult fantasy and YA reader. While I enjoy YA deeply I always thought of these books as 'lesser' stories. You've changed the way I see them though. So.. thank you!
Thank you for making this video and touching on a lot of great points! The reason I got into YA is because the books were much more enjoyable to me. And that’s still the case; often when I branch out into adult I don’t find what I’m looking for. Part of that is the pacing: I once read The Time Traveler’s Wife and after 5 evenings of reading the characters were still sitting around the dinner table, talkkng, and that made me just put the book away. Last week I read Flowers For Algernon for my book club and thought the book was good, but the plot often didn’t go the way I wanted it to go. With YA I get wonderful stories, whimsical tales, and in 300 or so pages I often get lots of action and page-turning experiences, at least in the books I choose to read. Also, I think every genre has good, mediocre and bad books. We just have to find the ones we enjoy, and not let people dictate what genre that should be! I totally agree that adult fantasy could be branched out to tailor to the people currently reading YA fantasy. YA is the reason I now also read fantasy: I love that there’s a made-up world with made-up rules and great characters. With adult fantasy I often cannot focus enough or enjoy them enough. But Ninth House and V.E. Schwab’s books are definitely on my list to try! Have a wonderful day xxx
i just wish people would realize that people are able to enjoy whatever they enjoy and that they shouldn't be shamed for that and that it is okay to have different opinions :))))
Hey I'm 24 and I don't really enjoy YA that much (can't relate to most books) but I love middle grade!! They're the perfect buffer/comfort books with valuable messages between all the heavy adult books :)
I think my personal take on this topic is that if YA books are going to grow with an age group there should be place where it stops and becomes adult or even new adult but I also think that middle grade should expand. The transition from children's books to middle grade books is pretty smooth, I more naturally went into reading middle grade when I was about 11 but then I went into middle school and the "cool thing to read" was YA books like Hunger Games and Divergent. I thought I was "so mature" to be reading these books meant for older kids when I was 12 or 13. Thinking back on it, I wish I had spent more time reading middle grade (yes I understand that I can read it at any age but my reading tastes have changed and I don't enjoy them as much as I would have back then). I don't think that books marketed for 18-year-olds should also be marketed for 13-year-olds and I think if YA is going to grow to accommodate the large percent of its audience that it in their early 20's it shouldn't continue to market to kids who are 13. (sorry this is an essay, I don't really expect anyone to read it all)
I really, really loved your points here. It was so refreshing to listen to you discuss this topic respectfully and with care for both YA and adult fiction. It just made me feel so happy inside (also appreciated the P&P intro) :)
I totally agree with you. The reason why there is such a large YA audience is because it's been so good at catering to its readers. By "growing up with its audience," YA has continued to be as successful as it is, and I think proves how much this "genre" is a marketing genre/category. As someone who also reads both YA fantasy and Adult fantasy, I do find books in adult fantasy that do feel like YA, however I do still feel that they there are different and I go to both genres for different reasons. I also do fear for this stretch of content the YA genre is bringing, because I've seen such young readers reading more explicit content in YA books that now cater to its audience that is more adult. I think this is where the genre "New Adult" has been trying to make its place, however it's still not clear the distinction between YA and NA, in terms of its books, and that in itself can cause many issues. I think the questions asked about YA fantasy can also be asked in Adult Fantasy, and I think both genres know their readers well and cater to them. People read and enjoy YA, so leave them be. We're all just reading what we want to, and at the end of the day it's mostly for entertainment, so why does it matter what we read? Anyways, I'm sorry this is so long, Just wanted to end by saying I loved this video, and thank you for sharing your thoughts, and leaving a space here for people to discuss this topic! ❤️❤️
I totally agree with everything you said, especially your point about the value of a book being more than just being deep and meaningful. Sometimes, I don't want to read something deep and complex, and I reach for something that is "easy" and know I will enjoy, and I resent that it's often construed as less intelligent or less valid. Loved this video and really got me feeling nostalgic about all the YA I grew up reading (and still continue to read)!
While I'm not someone who reads a lot of YA, I think it's not the best 'genre' description. Romance may be very popular in YA books, but one might think 'Adult' books are all romance too, since the romance genre dominates book sales. That's clearly not the popular opinion though, and cuts to a bias. And for the YA books that DO have romance... so what? Why should what other people read cater to my opinions about what they should read. Maybe they find it challenging, maybe they don't, and that's fine either way. Part of this is also that marketing, sales, and an online platform like youtube naturally trend younger, so someone like me who'd like to see other books included more online, can get frustrated when most youtubers are all talking about the same YA books. I need to remember that doesn't mean these people NEED to read other books though, for my benefit. Overall these conversations too easily skew toward very self-centered views on what other people should be reading, according to my tastes, and not theirs, which sounds very silly when you take a step back. I still do wish there was a wider range of books popular on youtube though, without condemning anyone. Like I'd love to hear your thoughts on something like Little, Big for example. So much so I was skimming for an address to mail a copy lol.
I remember when I first discovered YA fantasy and how much of a blessing it was. I grew up reading and was always VERY ahead and got to a point where things on my reading level would be too inappropriate for an elementary/ middle schooler. It was awesome when I found these books that were around my level but weren’t adult books. It’s really sad for me to think about my much younger sister not having a genre that does this for her.
13:30 I stopped reading a couple years ago cause depression and Y.A really helped me getting back into it. It was fun and simple and just easy , the series was ACOTAR, and not only did it bring back to reading but also I rediscovered the joy of hate-reading.
This is a very complex discussion, but I think you handled it wonderfully and brought up some very good points - especially regarding how we don't need all ya to be complex and amazing and have important discussions. I think we should be pushing publishers to restart New Adult as a genre - I feel like that might be the best solution to the problem of eventually stretching the YA genre thin. Much to think about...
I really hate this viewpoint that "you cannot enjoy things that are not your age" as an autistic person who loves things that are more centered towards kids it's SO annoying. I've also seen this with "YA bad" as you've pointed out in this video. I really wish people didn't think that they were better or judge others for liking things that are seen "childish" or something for people younger than their age. This is especially bad with TV shows and even toys/stuffed animals. Love to see someone actually talking about this >w
In one of my classes (I’m a college Writing Major) we read His Dark Material, which is classified as a kids book (ages 10-12). We ended up getting into a discussion about age ratings and why we classifying books by “this is for kids / this is for teens / this is for adults” and there are obvious reasons as you get into certain topics but not every book is this way. In terms of “his dark materials” is messed up, and I mean really messed up when you begin to look more into it (the first books evolves ripping the souls away from children so that why they remain ‘pure’ and only get worse from there). We place labels of age into books and while they can have that value for target audiences it’s not fair to point fingers and say “YOU’RE TOO OLD FOR YA” when really that’s all it is, a target demographic. And this ends to only really go one way, if you are younger reading YA or adult that it’s just that. I don’t personally like YA novels, especially since I don’t feel I connect with the characters anymore but personally I could care less what other people choose to read. YA novels are riddled with flaws but so is any subcategory of books and so i think people should just focus more on giving constructive criticism or not pay attention to the genre if you know you don’t like it.
I agree with you with the marketing part. I am currently reading six of crows, which I really enjoy but it does seem to me that it was kind of written as if it was for "adults" but the ages of the protagonists were just lowered to the teenager years so it can appeal more to the masses. I mean - the book is still really really good so far, but one can't deny that some "YA books" are deliberately targeted to young-adult readers.
This is such a great video. I’m not into ya and i must admit it’s easy to slip into condescension just because i wasn’t familiar with it. But you really made me understand why people read and love it and how the lack of expansion in other genres have kinda kept ya in a pen rather than them doing to themselves.
Thanks for the insights! I'm coming over after your interview vid with Daniel Greene. I don't typically read YA, but recently read and loved Carry On by Rainbow Rowell. I only realized it was YA when I paused on the tier lists you showed and noticed it there. I know it had a young protagonist, the book had clear Harry Potter references, and was reasonably light in tone. I was just a bit unaware of what classifies something as YA and didn't pay attention to the labels on goodreads :)
Full disclosure : I rarely read YA (never really have). I also don't check, before I pick up a book, to see what the recommended age is. I do, however, enjoy a good coming of age story (HT build a Girl; The Diamond Age: Or, A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer; or Robert McCammon's Boy's Life), & they are often YA. I also highly encourage people to pick up Bambi by Felix Salten (1923 pre-disney) or The Fox & the Hound by Daniel P Manix (1967 also pre-disney), both are labeled as "children's books", both are excellent reads. I thought that "YA crossover" was called "New Adult", I may be wrong. Should YA grow up? what.?. I see what your saying, but I don't see that as the question. I see it as people's changing tastes. They start looking for stories that have a different mix components, not necessarily more or better, just different. To illustrate my point: I don't often pick up historical fiction. But if that genre would include more alien first-contact & interplanetary travel etc etc ... pretty soon we no longer have historical fiction. Do we have a new sub-genre or super-genre? Who thinks up the genres anyway? (I know people are going to say - it's called alternate history blah blah blah) I don't think Genres don't need to adapt to individual's changing tastes. I think people should stop worrying about what group they fit in or genre they read from & just read whatever they like. Also, I can assure you there are plenty of "adult" books that a far cry from complex & deep. In conclusion of my TED talk; I love you, love your channel. I need some human contact, I'm going to wash my hands now.
As someone who mostly reads contemporaries, I've always had a hard time finding adult books that seemed interesting. Like you said, I think the more fluffy/cute romances are easily carried over to adult romance, but something I always really enjoy in ya contemporaries are that they can also be very deep. I read a lot of ya contemporaries about feminism, mental health and discrimination. Within adult, I can usually only find those topics in literary fiction and then it's usually what the entirety of the book's about. I love that with ya, you can have books about those serious topics, that are also romances or about friendships. It feels like within ya, it's easier for a book to be different genres in one
I just hate how it's so romance filled. I have no problem with romance being a subplot, but when it actually becomes the plot and the auther puts the actual plot in the backstage it becomes annoying.
It was YA that killed my love of reading for a while. My AroAce ass already felt bombarded by romance irl and then my escapism started shoving it down my throat too. I always hoped the single girls in them would stay single and happy but nope. Gotta have a boyfriend if you want to be happy 😑 I loved the found family elements and so many other elements but the constant romance and my inability to find a YA with no romance back in the day just made me put books down for a while.
Thank you. We need more of this kind of video! I dont get it why Daniel Green made a 2 part video roasting a genre that he doesnt read and like. Yes YA is problematic but as a YA lover I feel offended. Booktube doesnt need negativity and every one is entitled to read any type of books they want to enjoy. Just enjoy the books you like! There are so much good YA out there. And also... criticizing books and judging other people's taste doesn't make you superior or more of a reader.
As someone who frequents Daniel's channel (but it also a staunch reader and lover of YA), I think he was motivated by trying to explain why he doesn't discuss YA fantasy on his channel, but I think he should have actually tried to read more YA books first. It was very obvious to me watching his videos that he didn't have a lot of first hand familiarity with the genre.
I remember picking up Tithe by Holly Black and the romantic tension and brutal faerie world and emotional angst from all the characters just filled my little 14-year old heart with goodness. I agree that effort should be taken to keep YA as it's own genre, appealing to the desires and headspace of tweens and teens to escape into some fantasies that are more intense than children's books but not veering into overly adult situations. I know some of the stuff that's out now would've held me back from feeling safe escaping into relatable books that were made for that version of my mental and emotional reality.
this is super interesting to watch after watching Daniel Greene's videos. I agreed with a lot of points he raised about YA, a 'genre' that I usually don't like very much. However, you're totally correct that there's no issue with a book not being challenging/complex/deep. When I do read YA, its usually because i want to enjoy something fun and cute (majority of the time) & there's nothing wrong with a book doing that for a reader. Greene's arguments can all be true but that doesn't mean people shouldn't enjoy YA. It's like reading middle grade, which are some of the most dumbed downed books I've ever read but they're still great for what they are.
This video gave me so much to think about lol I really am starting to think that it's not YA that needs to change, it's adult fiction that needs to start absorbing "YA vibe" books with darker themes and slightly older characters
As a man who is not the target YA audience and it not being very big when I was, I can say that from the few YA books that I have read the backlash against it is overblown. Also want to bring the whole YA = bad thing because it is supposedly not deep enough and that people should read more adult. Two of the more popular adult novels and personal favorites are the Discworld series and Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, which are fun and entertaining and not overtly dark. Another point is that YA vibe does seem to equal easier to read because of the faster pacing and interesting POVs, if you take the adult fantasy's with their massive tomes and occasional meandering plots, this would feel like a breath of fresh air. Lastly, it is true that there are not enough women writers in adult fantasy and that why it is good that the women from YA are crossing over, which also means they can bring over the vibe from YA. Sorry for this long rant, just needed to get this off my chest
I definitely agree that I have a hard time finding what I want to read in adult books. With the notable exception of historical fiction because my mom and I have similar tastes and she knows what she is looking for. But like, I don’t want graphic sex, or slow fantasy books, or books where the characters are held at arms length. Also adult books tend to not get the beautiful covers that YA and kids books get and I’m sure that on a more subconscious level is playing into it. Adult books just don’t naturally draw me in. Most adult books I read I didn’t find myself, I found them because YA readers on youtube gave them rave reviews.
I really enjoy fantasy and most fantasy is YA and I have seen a lot of good ones, but there are a lot of flaws that need to be worked on in some of them.
I do have to admit, it is a little weird that there's some taboo about adults reading YA; considering that a large audience of adults watch G and PG movies and shows, but there doesn't seem to be as much judgment there.
I didn't know it at the time but a then-friend let me borrow a book and it would turn out to be my exposure to YA. My friend was very well-read, intelligent and opinionated so a recommendation from her was good as anything so I started to read the book. It was Barry Lyga's "Boy Toy" and lemmmme tell you, as an awkward 14 year old guy beginning highschool, the book was hard to get through. It dealt with a lot of very Adult themes, a lot of very adult problems, trauma, troubled relationships, anger, resentment, guilt, and fear. Not to mention intrigue, lust, possession, toxicity, happiness, taboo and convention. I loved the book but looking back now a good 7 years later, I think a book like that is what a Young Adult novel should be like. We shouldn't pretend that young adults are except from the problems and pains of regular ol' "adults." No, they often get dealt the same terrible cards without any of the advantage of experience, but it's those unfortunate years which give us our paltry wisdom. It's not that Young Adult fiction should be darker because that's what more serious fiction is, it should be darker because life for young adults is just as dark. We have family who suffer from addiction, we know people who are assaulted, sexually, physically, or otherwise, or we ourselves were/are, we experience racism, tragedy, bad luck. Sure, escapism should be there, but I find it inspiring to see someone suffer and go on, to triumph not so much through victory as through survival, to grow and develop, and become something more beautiful because of the struggles and the scars. We do youth a disservice but sectioning off these ideas and problems.
I think this was a very good conversation to be had. I think at the end of the day it all comes down to preference and it’s as simple as if you personally don’t like a book or genre then you don’t have to read it and you don’t have to look down upon the people who do read those books and genres. I personally am really picky with YA but there is a lot of good YA books out there that I think shouldn’t be grouped in with poorly written ones.
I really agree with you in this video. Also, i think that there should still be books in the YA genre that are intended for younger people (i want the YA genre to be all the way from nevermoor to like acotar). Our generation had the chance to grow up with twilight and the hunger games, but what about the younger readers? Are they supposed to fall in a hole between middle grade and “older YA”? In am not saying it will go away but like i just want it to stay. Also, i really don’t understand why there is a general consensus on not liking divergent, twilight and all of the others? Why do we need to get these books down? Like you likes it when you were younger so it is not valuable anymore? Adults saying YA isn’t valuable is the same to me (the same to YA reader that dislike their older favorites because they are “older”)
I agree with you, I'm an almost 14 year old and i got into YA last year I read everything everything, five feet apart and the infernal devices wich I all loved however I then lend a court of thorns and roses from the library and I started reading it and I felt like IS THIS FOR MY AGE??? I love YA but I don't know wich books are published for adult YA readers and wich ones are actually published for teens and I don't really like that...
I think the problem with our society is that the only literature we read is YA. We have forgotten how to read the "classics" or good quality books. It is okay if you read YA books (I myself have read them) you just have to be aware that MOST are like junk food for your body. While good quality books are like healthy foods that nourish your mind, body, and soul. We need to have more of a balance of what we read just like we have a balance on how we eat. (The reason why I emphasize MOST YA books is mainly because of "Nothing" by Jane Teller that doesn't have the typical YA plot and gets you thinking.)
omg just stfu 😭😭 “nourish” “junk food” sweetheart people read for fun these “ya books” aint harming them like how junk food does i dont get it lmao . such a stupid argument lord
i'm so glad i watched this video because you put into words how i am feeling because i am someone who reads a lot of YA, and still reads a lot of it, especially in Fantasy and over the last couple of years or so is, when i transitioned to some Adult Fantasy because of some authors who started writing Adult fantasy like SJM. a lot of Booktubers make me feel like trash sometimes when they constantly Bash on YA and i wish people would approach the subject more respectfully like you did so thank you sorry if my thoughts are jumbled you are awesome by the way Leonie
Some thoughts on crossover YA: Some writing, like Six of Crows, really does feel like it would be well-suited as adult fantasy, especially because the characters definitely do not sound 17 and would easily suit as adults but also? I've been reading that there's definitely gatekeeping against female authors in adult fantasy and that may be a reason a lot of them are aging their fantasy down? And also that, even though it's probably partly for marketing, YA seems much more accepting towards diversity? Anyway, great video! I really enjoyed your thoughts and how clearly you expressed them.
Funnily enough I agree with both you and Daniel Greene. YA fantasy doesn't satisfy me for the reasons mentioned by Daniel. Adult fantasy is the genre that needs to change and incorporate more non-sexualised, complex female protagonists and tropy-er plot lines.
Please share your thoughts on what you think is special in YA stories that you would like to see translated into adult stories! Is it the bingeworthy writing? First person POV's? Well rounded female characters? Let me know!
it would be nice to see the sense/feeling of rebellion adapted into adult books!
I'm still a sucker for a coming of age story, which can be very difficult to fit in an adult book without it then being classed as this "crossover" type. Think it relates to the point you made about YA protagonists feeling more relatable. Don't me wrong I don't always wanna relate to who I'm reading about, but when I do "YA" does it better more often than not
A lot of YA book I read are books I read in between thicker/heavier books, like LotR or Between the Shades of Grey. I recently read Serpent King which even though it has darker themes is a light read with a cute fluffy romance. It was as enjoyable as the other non-YA books I read.
Rachael S yeah nowadays there does seem to be multiple coming of age stories! The coming of age typical of 16-18 year olds but I think new adults 20-23 go through a similar journey just with different issues if that makes sense. I relate more to ya for this than adult even if it’s not totally the same, in some cases
You enjoy YA because at this particular point in your life you relate to the generic YA protagonist ( a young, attractive female that puts romance as a high priority in her life). When you grow older I dare say you will no longer relate to this trope, simply because your priorities in life will shift. YA isn't bad, just like middle grade or kids books aren't bad. It's just that the target demographic of YA isn't adults. The character arcs that the protagonist go through are usually shallow and involve romance as a main driving theme and motive for the protagonist actions. Yes there are some exceptions, there always are, but I'm just talking about the generic YA novel. In contrast the themes, and characters of most adult novels tend to be different. I dare say that as time goes by you will relate less and less to the YA protagonist and veer more to the adult genre.
THE YA VIBE: Finding yourself, believing in yourself, fighting for your friends or family, passion, angst, humour, it’s about Identity and Discovery.
yes yes to all of this!
Yessssssss.
Is that bad?
Bárbara Dias noooooooooo this is good! Of course it’s good
@@rachaelmarie3194 were you sarcastic? haha sorry i am a very slow human being
I wish New Adult was still a thing publishers try to push. It's a shame that it got the pornographic reputation that it did----& also a shame that that's considered a bad thing.
New Adult makes for such a good blend of YA and Adult fantasy that you talk about. Also the early 20's phase of people's life is just as complicated & interesting (if not more so) than teens.
I'm not just saying that as a 21 year old who's fantasy book he's writing would have perfectly fit the genre :(
Exactly! I also sometimes feel like YA because of its audience that I've grown from it since I'm 25, but I just finished college and don't feel like reading that many Adult books yet because some talk about marriage problems etc. and I can't relate to that yet.
And also, I still love reading YA (mostly contemporaries though, I've always loved them! Especially coming of age stories) and children's books because of nostalgia, which is also why adults still read YA I think.
Agree! I always feel caught in the middle of a teen and an actual adult (I'm 24) and I wish new adult as a genre would be more than this terrible angsty pornographic college trope.
Ryan Ratchford i 100% agree. ninth house was a HUGE breathe of fresh air,
I don't see the point of the New Adult genre tbh. By the time you're in your twenties, you should be more than capable of reading regular adult books.
Most New Adult books I've seen are either thinly veiled erotica, or they're just as shallow as YA books but with slightly older characters and more swearing.
Also, plenty of normal "Adult" books deal with characters in their twenties, so it's not like you really need a separate genre for it.
The biggest problem I see is that we are leaving the youngest behind. I would consider myself a still young YA reader, I am 17 and started reading YA at age 12 (2015). I read things that I wouldn't consider apropriate for my age range. And thinking about a 12yo today reading something like ACOMAF (I never read it but I can imagine from reviews) scares me. I would actually like the middle grade (is that the name?) genre to become bigger. YA is full of romance and for me personally it would have been better to not be exposed to so much content that mainly focus on "meeting your soul mate at age 16" because it raised my expectations for reality that never came true. I could have done with 2 more years reading stuff like Harry Potter or Percy Jackson, maybe with a female lead and some age apropriate female struggles. But now I just went from real childrens' books to YA.
Another think I see as a potential danger is the YA online community. I got many book recommendations online. But with the community being mainly a decade older than me, I almost read things like the After series because my favourite booktuber liked it and we shared many favourite books. Or take Nevernight, which was really popular under YA readers, so I read it at age 15. I like the series but I could have done one or two more years without it.
Idk if this makes any sense, sorry.
I definitely agree, as someone who had nothing left to read in the middle grade genre I started reading YA at around 10/11, which honestly I think was kind of harmful. I was desperate for more complex stories, but the themes discussed in so much YA center around romance, and a lot of YA nowadays tends to be very explicit. While I'm all for normalising sex, I dont think that its necessarily something that needs to be exposed to young readers in such a way. Like ACOMAF is really a problematic read to be targeted at YA readers. The age range for YA is, in my opinion, way too large. Teenagers from 12-18 have vastly different levels of what is considered appropriate. I think booktubers promoting certain books as "YA" can be harmful to younger readers who dont need such explicit/ dark themes discussed so openly in their books. For example, Red White and Royal Blue is technically marketed as New Adult, but the merge of New Adult with Young adult in terms of book recs means that I read that book at an age where I probably shouldnt have (given the explicit sexual scenes). I think that there definitely should be an extension of the middle grade genre, and a clearer and better separation of New and Young Adult in a way that doesnt give NA a bad rep? Darker themed books should also definitely be a part of NA instead of YA, just an opinion!
yesss. i'm on the younger side of YA and I tend to read older books like a THG and The Selection because the books being recommended now are way to explicit for my age. For example, I added ACOTAR to my tbr because it's been recommended to me so many times but then I researched it up and it scared me to see that 12 year olds were saying that it wasn't that sexual and they weren't fazed by it but honestly, I don't know how someone my age could read that and be perfectly fine. It's like now I have to look at reviews to see if it's appropriate for me then get left behind because I can't read that book that everyone is talking about. :(
I agree with you on so many levels. Yes to more Middle-grade books of the same quality as Percy Jackson but with female leads! Yes to abolishing the weird stereotype of meeting your soulmate at age 16! I totally agree that some books won't be beneficial for younger teens because they are dark and potentially too morally ambiguous!
But...
ACOMAF is actually not a bad book for someone to read if they are still developing a sense of what a healthy relationship should look like. I would even go so far and claim that ACOMAF is better suited for younger teens than the '16year old insta love to the bad boy with some anger issues, but he's nice to me' books.
I feel like this book series can teach you many valuable lessons, that most people don't bother with. It dissuades the whole Madonna-whore complex some ya books perpetuate. Most female characters aren't allowed to have several relationships in ya without some (subliminal) shaming. Most ya books don't dare to portray unhealthy relationships, how easily someone might end up in one and the harm this does to a person, let alone how hard it can be to get out and unprogram the weird thing that person made you believe. ACOTAR does just that. Furthermore, it displays toxic sibling relationships, something that doesn't exist in other books. Of course, adding in an intricate, effed up family dynamic makes writing a good plot and character development harder. But those things exist in real life. I honestly think that art needs to imitate reality in that sense because we don't want teens with less than ideal family dynamics to feel isolated and abnormal. In the real world, most people deal with this to some degree and still become responsible adults and conquer challenges.
If you meant to say that ACOMAF shouldn't be read by a 12 year old because of the sexual content, let me just tell you that sheltering kids from sexual content doesn't work. Sadly enough, we live an age in which 12 year olds have access to pornography and generally use this access to learn about a topic that is very intriguing due to its taboo status. I know, no one wants to think about it, but that's the sad reality. (for reference, I'm a psychology student that volunteers with an organization bringing quality sex ed to schools, so I actually do know what I am talking about when I say that young teens and even middle school children seek out sexual content).
I am a lot more comfortable with a 12 year old's first encounter with sexual content being ACOMAF than a gangbang porn clip. ACOMAF would teach the teen girl reading it that it's okay to have a casual sexual relationship as long as both parties are consenting and enjoying it. No need for shame. It would teach them about consent (the absence thereof and the muddled grey area that does exist). But these, morally ambiguous instances are presented clearly enough, that the reader questions them, so there's no room for misunderstandings. And when we get to the wonderful healthy relationship two of the main characters develop in the books, the kid reading ACOMAF would get to see a wonderful (imperfect) example of helping each other grow, not forcing a relationship but letting it develop. It's a wonderful, loving, appreciative and mutually beneficial relationship that openly deals with (most) of the issues they face together. We see fluffy, nice moments, we see stressed moments, we see disagreements, fights and betrayal of trust. But we also see how a healthy relationship can sustain all of that and grow. Now, to address the elephant in the room: Yes there's sex, yes it's steamy. They are having fun, celebrating life and their love for each other, so why not. It is consensual, it doesn't portray anything that would somehow damage a young girl's understanding of what sex generally can be like (hmm, gangbang videos....). So why not?
Sex would be presented in a loving, safe context with room for enjoyment and dignity. All of which are lacking in mainstream porn.
edit: spelling, formating
While these aren't female led, I found books such as the Gone series and Eragon to be really good sort of stepping stones into YA fantasy when I was younger. I would also say that the Lunar Chronicles would have been a good option if it had been around. There are definitely some good ones out there, but there just haven't really been any in a long time. Personally, I think that it might be a case of adding more mature themes to these 'middle grade' novels (like percy jackson), because I definitely think kids now are a lot more mature than they use to be. I was reading 'YA' books at around 11, as much of my class were, so I definitely think rhe publishing industry might need a revamp.
How were you 12 in 2015 if ur 17 now?
I feel like when you grow up you just "unlock more levels" instead of just having to trade out ya for adult or even middle grade for ya
what a great way to put it
Yeah. I still read children's books. Some of them are poignant like Winnie the Pooh. Others are super wacky like Sideways Stories from Wayside School
@@bellevoor I loved that series! Part of what made my starting experience so fun. :)
A huge part of the "YA vibe" that I have trouble finding in adult fantasy (at least so far) is found family. Six of crows, harry potter, percy jackson, tamora pierce, even children's shows like avatar the last airbender, all have amazing tight-knit friend groups, and while some adult fantasy (such as the gentlemen bastards series) does also have this, it's usually not the focus. I want those warm and fuzzy friendship feelings, dangit!
I totally agree with you. I read books generally for fun, and, when people trash books I love or genres I enjoy, it takes a lot of fun out of the process, causing me to go into crisis reading slumps. I’ve read some bad, mediocre, and good YA, just as I’ve read some bad, mediocre, and good adult fiction. The same goes for classics and other genres that aren’t age related. If you’re genuinely enjoying yourself, go wild. I’ve read 2 star books that were really fun. I also like having a wide variety but I also get sticking to one age range. I’m 19 so I’m in the middle of a bunch of different age ranges and I like seeing what’s popular across ages.
absolutely agree here. I've read so many books that a lot of people would probably consider to be bad, but I had fun with them so I really don't care. I've had fun with certain classics, while others have sucked, I've had fun with certain adult books, while others have sucked. And the same can be said for YA. I really just utterly believe that life is too short not to have fun with what you're reading.... So there's really no reason for us to put all our effort into reading something only because it has "deeper meaning" or is "serious literature" if we're not going to enjoy that challenge.
But people should be able to express their opinion on a book. Just because they didn’t like it doesn’t mean you don’t have to.
@@ughhhasif2994 True, but I think the point here is that we shouldn't be shaming people for what they enjoy. It's very easy to express how you don't like something and not shame the people who do like it at the same time.
I'm 21 and I love Ya dystopian but I feel like I'm too "old" for it
Another thing to point out about adults today reading YA is that diversity in today's YA is incredible, it is probably the genre with the most diversity out there, and is miles better than anything anyone over 20 ever grew up with. This leads to a lot of for example LGBT adults reading YA, because they finally get stories with characters that represent them, stories they never got access to as children or teenagers.
extremely good point!
@Jack Bran That has absolutely nothing to do with what I said or the point I made, but go off I guess.
@Jack Bran lmao read my comment again because I never claimed it was better in quality, only better in terms of diversity. The diversity seen in YA today is better, as in there is more representation, than YA in the past or other genres today. I said nothing of quality 🙄 You see what you want to see I guess, trying to create an argument that wasn't there lmao. Hope you have a good day.
Yeah, the problem with all that. Is that they fixed the diversity, but then removed passionate and healthy relationships for abusive stereotypes and love triangles. Its really important that all these new people being pulled in by diversity and all this brand new life to the book world. That they are not being told when they are young and haven't had their first love yet. Or a deep intense lasting love, that the abuse they see is what they should look for in a happy, healthy relationships. Because it has become so horrible the past few years. And the adaptations are getting horrible because the source material is bad.
I don't think people have read much if they think *YA* is more diverse than anything.
YES YES YES. I've heard its really hard for women to break into adult fantasy and sci-fi in publishing, and that a lot of authors we know tried to get into it but were denied, so they went to YA and blew up there. So I hope adult stops gatekeeping so much, because I would love to read about complex women who deal with mature stuff -- and seem REAL.
Personally, I find it to be a difference between concept driven fantasy and character driven fantasy. I've noticed that adult fantasy is focused more on larger concepts, so sometimes the characters don't feel as fleshed out or as engaging. Likewise, I struggle with YA because a number of YA books don't always fully give their concept justice - they have a great idea initially but they're too focused on the characters to see it to a satisfying conclusion. This is certainly not true for all books on either side, but it's a common theme I noticed. I personally want a middle ground between the two for fantasy AND sci fi, which is why I don't have the patience right now for any fantasy or sci fi books, and partly why I haven't read any books in a while. They're my favorite genres in television but I can't find any series that give me the same satisfaction.
I disagree. In fact the most popular adult books from authors like Stephen King, George R.R. Martin and Joe Abercrombie, are all character driven stories. The main difference between YA and Adult is 1. the themes that the books explore, 2. the character voice (the unique way characters see the world and react to events) and 3. the prose. YA characters explore teenage themes like coming of age, believing in yourself, first love and all that jazz; YA books have teenage angst character voices, they're always rebels trying to change society for the better (very naive teenage way of thinking); and YA books tend to have simple, almost middle-grade level prose.
That's not to say that adult books are superior, but well done adult books explore much more complex themes than YA. A Song of Ice and Fire series is much more complex in themes, character arcs and prose than a Throne of Glass series. Sorry but the character arcs in most YA books are just shallow. Usually the protagonist is just some Marry Sue that is a perfect snowflake that doesn't need to change because its society that's wrong and needs to change not her. Also the level of prose in YA is almost middle-grade level. I'm not asking for Shakespeare, I'm just asking for authors to not go around calling people Alpha-holes. As you probably guessed I'm not a fan of YA. It's just not a genre that's written for me.
@@JerodimusPrime honestly, your point also rings true to me, but I'm not convinced I'm wrong either (at least on a personal level). It's been years since I've found a YA book that has appealed to me. However, the few that have are focused around the characters in the series, whereas if I look at the stories with the most compelling plots, I'm finding they usually don't live up to that (but probably because, as you put it, they're more shallow conceptually). I will have to take your word on Thrones of Glass; I've never read it.
I personally have not found luck with finding adult series that are character driven enough, and I personally need characters to cling to to get hooked. I don't disagree that GRRM writes character driven stories, and I also don't question that they're good, but the chunks that I've managed to slog through have felt more like history books. I have nothing wrong with that, but I'm struggling to read after grad school burnout, and that does not work for my attention span unless I'm invested in at least one character. I also don't really find Stephen King's stories appealing. But I really do want to tackle some stories with complex world building and concepts; I just haven't found any that can keep my focus.
Do you have any suggestions of good character driven fantasy (or sci fi, because I really don't know where to start with sci fi)? I know Brandon Sanderson is beloved and he's on my list to tackle once I get past my burnout, but I would love other suggestions.
@@rebeccacrow9013
Try anything from Joe Abercrombie "The Blade Itself" is his first book and is a bit slow but that's because its act 1 in a trilogy. There's also "Red Sister" by Mark Lawrence, that's also the first in a trilogy and has a female protagonist. There's also "The Name of the Wind" by Patrick Rothfuss. It's highly praised, but the second book is not as praised.
If you prefer a female author, there's N.K. Jemisin, her book "The Fifth Season" is highly praised. There's also "Ninth House" by Leigh Bardugo this is her adult book, usually she does YA.
JerodimusPrime thanks for the suggestions!! I have heard of Leigh Bardugo and know she's probably not for me - I've tried Six of Crows multiple times and can't get invested in it at all - and I've heard about the Fifth Season from PeruseProject, but I've never heard of the others, so I will add them to my list! Thanks! :)
Also, for me, the gender of the character or writer doesn't really matter in whether I find it appealing. I've just not had luck in finding stories that balance character growth and worldbuilding and plot development successfully (although I'm not implying Game of Thrones doesn't, that one I just have an issue with how slow the beginning is). I've had a lot of luck with finding fantasy and sci fi shows that hit that balance a lot more consistently (such as Firefly, the recent Battlestar Galactica, Avatar the Last Airbender, The Good Place, Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood, etc.), and that is not transferring to books in a way I want it to. That's more what I'm trying to get at.
@@rebeccacrow9013
Brendon Sanderson is really good at fantasy, his Mistborn series is loved by almost everyone. Have you also tried the Black Magician Saga by Trudi Canavan? It's YA but it's one of the few YA series I actually love.If you're into urbun low fantasy, there's also the Dresden Files books. I'm a huge fan of them, they're kind of like the Supernatural TV show, but a bit more grown up.
BTW I'm a huge fan of all the TV shows you mentioned, good taste in TV.
ive been thinking about how to say this for a bit, I agreed with what you said about romance in YA, but I think that it can be harmful for EVERY SINGLE BOOK to have a romance bc it almost teaches teens (at a very critical point in their life) that if they dont have a romance they arent the norm. I just wish that there could be more variety of romances and in that variety there could be books were people dont have romances or more where the romance isnt "the one".
maybe im just a cranky old skeptic...
no need for the 'almost' to me, id feel confident saying it definitely teaches them that. i grew up reading most of the typical YA fantasy/sci-fi i could get my hands on. as you said, just about every single book was consumed by some bland love at first sight romance amidst a global apocalypse lmao. i was boy-crazy basically as far back as i can remember, and at 25 im still unsure how much that may have been influenced by my constantly being immersed in worlds where the most important thing to the young female protagonist was which of the super hot guys that were all desperately into her was her one true love (global apocalypse was a close second though). i at least was somewhat of a realist so i didnt expect any different, but when i ended up dating at 16 and having a truly blissfully happy and fulfilling relationship for years, i was kind of like huh, interesting that even though i am definitely in love with this wonderful man who makes me so happy everyday and whom i could not love more, im not quite getting the electric lightning shooting up my arm when his hand brushes mine, or our love conquering all obstacles on earth like all those books seemed to promise lol.
at every point in my life including (and perhaps most prominently) now, ive had friends that were very insecure about not having much or any dating experience, and i dont think its a coincidence that its mostly concentrated in the ones that grew up on YA books.
the YA lit industry as a whole places an insane amount of importance on romance (and specifically the be-all-end-all soulmates at 16 variety), movies and tv for the same age group dont even compare. at the very least, i think this leaves preteens and teenagers (and lets be real, mostly girls) that read a lot constantly thinking about dating and romance and being in love, and being in love the right /way/, when its obviously just not very important lmao. and at worst, i would imagine it gives a lot of kids the wrong expectations and raises them to be insecure about a lot of things surrounding romance and relationships. it certainly propped up and helped along my boy obsession, and i theorise it was also partially responsible for my not even realising that im bisexual until like seven YEARS after i probably should have, because all i had read were dozens of books about the same girl and boy getting together despite barely knowing each other, that i didnt even really conceptualise that there were any other experiences out there lol.
id say that this means that maybe middle-grade should be invested in more, as youd think it would be less romance-focused, but even then we know how hp and percy jackson end. it really seems like theres nowhere to turn for kids to find a character going about their business while remaining single in a book aimed at anyone 11-18 which is just absurd.
This is very true. Aromatic/asexual teens need books without romance or kissing/sex in it just to show them that "hey, you dont need to fall in love with every hot guy to be normal". As a lesbian, i found more enjoyment in books with no romance plot, than books with the same cishet relationship subplot.
If every book marketed to teens is saturated with straight romanc plots, many people who are either not straight, who are aromatic or asexual, or even teens who dont find anyone attractive just yet in their lives, start to feel like something is wrong with them. And no teen should ever feel that way.
honestly, this video convinced me to finally subscribe to your channel :) i love this discourse and the ideas you brought up, but i just wish you had gone a bit more into "the elephant in the room", because i feel like that's the big discussion that people often shy away from and, as a result, we keep going in circles with this "YA bad??" discussion and not getting anywhere. this is my opinion (and straight away i wanna clarify that i'm very aware gender is a complex thing and the world is not as black and white as it may seem with what i'm saying, but i do think the publishing industry still struggles in certain genres with these very outdated notions re: "women vs. men"):
it NEEDS to be acknowledged that, whether we want to bring gender into it or not, adult fantasy/sci-fi books have ALWAYS been mostly written by men and FOR male audiences, while YA fantasy/sci-fi is largely dominated by women and targeted towards women. there may be exceptions, of course, but generally speaking we all know this is a fact. and just like the adult books haven't branched out to welcome more female readers, the YA books haven't branched out to welcome male readers. at the end of the day, that's why you can't find anything in the adult fantasy book world that appeals to you, and why Daniel Greene can't find anything in YA for him. this needs to be addressed and called for what it is.
i completely agree with you when you say that sometimes you just wanna read something for fun, i agree that's what draws so many people to some YA books (myself included), but i also feel like minimizing "the problem with YA" to how they're written and whether or not they're very "dark", kinda feels like we're actually just adding to this notion that "oh women just don't like complex stories, complex writing and mature themes". which is not true!!! because, yes, we may like shitty books just for enjoyment sometimes, but i'm sure men do too, perhaps just in a different sense of the word "shitty". but of course (as you briefly mentioned as well) things that are marketed towards women are usually viewed as "dumb".
what i'm trying to say is, as a woman i've enjoyed my fair share of cheesy YA fantasy books just for fun, fully aware that they're not masterpieces and i'm okay with that. i've also enjoyed really good YA fantasy that pushes the boundaries a little bit (SOC comes to mind). however, when it comes to adult fantasy, as much as i want to get into it, my demands are just not being met with what is out there in the market right now. because, YES, the adult fantasy demographic is still very much male-focused. sorry not sorry but i don't really wanna sit through George R.R. Martin writing shitty female characters for 7 books. i'm not the target market and that's just the truth.
but the excellent point that you brought up is this: why does YA have to be the one to change? how much further can it go? bottom line, i think YA fantasy could benefit from being more male-reader-friendly, but certainly it's not the only "guilty" side here. adult fantasy could definitely be much more appealing if it actually had, perhaps, more female writers or at least didn't STILL feel like this very "bro-ey bro" ground. but this is something publishers worldwide need to work on, because it all comes down to how they market books. i really hope now with Leigh bardugo the true queen of YA fantasy branching out into adult fantasy, things will start to shift. hope this made sense xx
really agree with what you said here!
This is so true, female writers have such a hard time trying to enter the adult book scene, i really think Leigh Bardugo, Sarah J Maas and V.E only did it because they have books in the Y.A that are best-sellers so the publishers thought "why not?" and let them expand their work to the adult scene to see if it worked
I agree so much with you, thank you for saying what a lot of people don’t dare to say
this is such a great discussion. i also agree that ya doesn't have to be deep to be valued. a lot of my favorite books will never go on to be considered literary masterpieces as classics, and that's okay! I love classics too! I don't know why people insult 'fun' books - don't we watch movies for fun sometimes? It's not like the same people making that argument exclusively watch documentaries - Disney Princess movies are "for children" but are beloved by adults. They can be enjoyed beyond their targeted demographic, same with books. I actually agreed with a lot of Daniel's points and I think he presented them in a nicer and more respectful way than most of these YA commentary videos I have seen. I do think he was lacking some context on modern YA, but that was the only main fault I found in his video, and I recommended in the comments that he look into Naomi Novik's books which are YA/adult and bend a lot of the tropes that bother him. I also wish he talked to some YA readers to pull in the whole YA/NA argument because I think that was a point he was trying to touch on but didn't hit 100%.
well put! also i'm going to remember what you said about disney movies lol that's a good one
Love the nod to "Pride and Prejudice".
I think our lives are already so stressful and complicated so YA books are great because they are faster paced and straightforward ('simple') because we can relax better while also identifying with the problems when we read YA books 🙈
this!!
I really loved this discussion. I remember ages ago Emma from Emmmabooks did a "why I read YA" video and a big reason for her is that she can more easily relate to YA characters than "adult" characters because of the stage of life that a lot of us are in right now fits closer to a teenager than say a 30-40 year old. We're all still trying to find our feet and don't feel as "established" as an adult. With this I completely agree with what you said YA and adult romance vs YA and adult fantasy.
What annoys me about YA is how obviously targeted towards women it is. It's not at all accessible to men and I think that's what the "annoyed about romance thing" plays into so hard. A lot of young guys dont give a crap about romance, and I have read one single YA series that is focused on a male main character. I personally wish there were more male characters in YA. I'm not saying theres something wrong with romance but I am saying that publishers do NOT think about overall accessibility towards everyone in a certain age range. I think Daniel touched on this in your guys' chat. Young boys often jump over YA and get into adult long before that type of content is age appropriate because it doesnt often have romance and appeals more to their interests.
I’ve found that a a lot of YA with male protagonists are from the late 90s and early 2000s. In ms and hs I didn’t like romance so I looked for realistic fiction. Whatever plots suited my fancy from my school and local library were male-lead and published in the 2000s
....
I have to admit that if I were a reader in my teenage years I would have loved YA. I say this because I watched a lot of romance movies as a child. But now as a grown up my taste has changed to science fiction books. It would be nice though if more YA would focus on male protagonists, maybe I would pick one up now.
Kayla M I have to say, as a male who grew up reading his older sisters hand me down YA books, i never really noticed most protagonists were women.
As a young man I will just keep reading Bukowski and Jim Harrison.
Love this! I totally agree that it was an easy shift from YA contemporary to adult contemporary but adult fantasy is often just not the same. Also, this is so, so shallow but.... aesthetic. I’m a “book by its cover” gal and so much adult fantasy doesn’t attract me because it just doesn’t look appealing.
where's the lie haha
I agree about how fantasy used to be so much more male focused and I love fantasy and reading books written by women and seeing successful women authors since one of my goals is to publish a book. I was thinking through my favorite fantasy authors and most of the ya authors are women and most of the adult fantasy authors are men. I think that we need to accept that women want to read books about women by women, just like men want to read books about men by men, and that everyone deserves representation and if ya is what provides it, then that is what people will read.
Young ADult = English speakers from England (generally as obviously there are exceptions with dialect etc.etc.etc)
Young adULT = American English speakers, again very generally!
I'm from England for reference❤
thank you :D
yes this is very true
The idea that instead of YA expanding to it’s breaking point, Adult genre should also help with readers having a smooth transition makes so much sense to me. I think it’s slowly happening with with books like Vicious/Shades of Magic, The Name of the Wind, Ninth House etc. But it’s still mostly YA authors writing adult books. Idk, but points were made in this video haha
The one thing I am always looking for in adult fantasy, but have a hard time finding is women. That's actually the only reason why I am often put of by popular adult fantasy, especially epic fantasy.
Female characters with importance to the story, female characters that are nuanced, well written and feel real. It makes me so mad when I read good bocks, but keep thinking "Where are the women? Surely there are women in this world than your mom, your love interest that only exists when you feel bored and a maid?"
I am aware that for some reason (especially male) fantasy authors like to base their fantasy world somewhere in the past, predominantly in the middle ages. But they still modify a lot that would be authentic for that time period to fit their characters and plot. SO why not go that extra step and have a not completely oppressed female character? Why not share the spotlight of your 4 male main characters with AT LEAST one woman? Even back then, there were women that rebelled against social norms or managed to care out some sense of importance and power for themselves. They still had personalities!
I have to wonder why it is that especially male authors in adult fantasy feel the need to further portray the social oppression of women in their books. Sure it creates a convenient struggle for a female character if you bother to give her a tiny little bit of storyline. But beyond that, I actually don't see any reason why it would be necessary, especially if it has nothing whatsoever to do with your plot.
That's why I always come back to ya fantasy. I don't need to read about characters being condescending to women or dismissing them in my free time. Real-life already does this.
Yeah, that's a problem happening too often in adult fantasy, and one that really grates with me. One solution would be reading AF written by women. V. E. Schwab, Samantha Shannon, N. K. Jemisin, R. F. Kuang, Robin Hobb
Some men do a fine job as well. Stormlight Archive, ASOIAF, most of the stuff by Neil Gaiman
YES! Or even if (as you noted, by authorial choice) the society in their world puts constraints on women, they still EXIST. They're still people with complex thoughts, feelings, and motivations. I see so much praise for Joe Abercrombie's First Law trilogy, but I literally quit the series over this issue.
@@StarryEyed0590Well Joe Abercombie's First Law stand lone: Best Served Cold's main protagonist is a Women. The're are main characters that are Women in A Little Hatred Also.
@@ZamWeazle I know that Joe Abercrombie does have some female MCs. I read the first two books of the First Law trilogy. I think Vitari is a fine character, and I appreciated the fact that named female characters with lines of dialogue basically doubled from the first book to the second book (3 to 6, but still), but it doesn't make up for the fact that, at least in the books I read, women are treated as an afterthought, either faceless masses or as rare, special snowflakes. Every single female character in Before They are Hanged was a love interest of some kind for at least one male character. Over two-thirds of them had previously been raped. The story was not truly interested in their experiences, and rarely gave them any agency. (Only Ferro had any real agency, and the way her sexual abuse survivor storyline was handled made me very frustrated) They were primarily treated as accessories to a man's world.
@@StarryEyed0590 I see your Point. Maybe try out Mark Lawrence's Book of the Ancestor series! Its charaters are pretty much All women and he's a terrific writer.
I work in a library in the youth service department and one of my jobs is to purchase the YA books that go into our collection. I've been doing this for about two and a half years now and I recently had a coworker tell me that since I started ordering, our YA collection has become a lot "older". Now, I live in a very conservative town where the Percy Jackson series is considered YA because of the LGBTQIA+ themes present in later books (which is another issue entirely). So when I began ordering things like Wilder Girls that had darker tones it really did change the feel of our collection. My response to this to anyone who asked is that I haven't been specifically seeking out these "older" titles, I've just been ordering what is popular and what the majority people are talking about. I do wish there was an in-between for readers that want to branch out of YA but feel intimidated by adult fantasy. The "New Adult" genre is such a great idea, but I think at this point there is a notion that New Adult books are those steamy romances. It would be great if we could grow that genre to include fantasy/other genres as well.
I agree with so much of what you’ve said in this video. I’m definitely going to subscribe! And like you said: if YA grows with it’s audience...the actual audience for YA will be left behind. YA needs to be there for the 13-14-15-16-17 year olds who need it most. The end of the day, YA isn’t for the 20-21-22-23-24 year old. Obviously you can read YA as an adult but is it for you?
And I don’t know if it’s been mentioned but YA is also far more diverse than adult. From having more characters of color, queer characters, characters from other religion than Christianity and so much more, YA has so much to offer.
Like you also said, we often don’t give a lot of credit to things liked by women/children/younger people.
I completely agree that something missing with adult fantasy for me is the "YA vibe". For me, that is definitely books about women and by women authors. It's super frustrating to look through so many recommendation videos and see the same men writing war stories with magic recommended again and again. On the other hand, I do tend to read more adult books rather than YA because in my opinion I feel like YA fantasies can get really repetitive? Many of them play with the same or similar tropes, character dynamics, etc, whereas adult fantasy seems to me to be more able to try new things. THEN AGAIN, lately the best fantasies I've been reading are middle grade!! So who knows!!
piscespaperbacks That‘s exactly, what I‘m experiencing as a fantasy lover! Always thought, I was just to picky with what I like and what I don‘t like...
I'm all for everyone reading whatever they want. If someone is 13 and wants to read cozy mysteries that are stereotyped as being for retirees, or someone is 70 and wants to read middle grade sports stories, more power to them! 😃
But the one element of this discussion that I don't understand is the claim that adult fiction doesn't offer the same themes as YA, or that it lacks the uplifting endings. A lot of "chick-lit" (which isn't a great label, but it is what it is) is essentially the same as a YA contemporary or YA romance, just with slightly older characters. When people say that adult fantasy doesn't include romance, they're just looking in the wrong genre section since romantic fantasy exists, it's just generally shelved as a romance sub-genre rather than a fantasy one.
The oddest claim I've seen is that adult fiction is less diverse, and whenever I see that claim I suspect the person saying that hasn't looked very hard. Because demographics aren't used in the marketing in the same way (at least outside of romance) but that doesn't mean the content isn't there!
I agree it's a lot about preference! YA books can be a wonderful read despite its shortcomings.
Indeed!
I think your big point is that some of the major complaints daniel had were features of YA and not bugs. And I think that is absolutely valid. It's like I dont always want to watch a dark, complex, artsy movie. Sometimes I just want something light hearted.
So, I'm actually taking a young adult literature class right now, and there's this whole conversation about the differences between early young adult literature that was considered classic and groundbreaking (Are You There God? It's Me Margaret by Judy Blume, Speak by Laurie Halse Anderson, etc) and the young adult novels being written now. In a lot of early YA it was more about creating novels that talk about necessary realities of adolescent life, because like you talked about, it's more of a marketing term in a lot of ways now. I've found myself disagreeing with some of the scholars that have looked into YA literature-- for me, I think the "vibe" mainly relies upon themes of self discovery, or coming to terms with yourself. In books like Ninth House, it has a YA vibe because it's about a strong female character coming to terms with the decisions she's made, the person she was, and the person she wants to be. In Vicious (which I haven't read, I'm basing this statement off of summaries), you have two characters dealing with who they were versus who they have become. I think what makes YA so appealing is because it focuses on individuality. Like you said, it turns very real struggles and presents them in interesting ways, often involved with how you, as an individual, interact with the world around you.
This is such a hot topic and I'm really glad to see you taking such an informed and individual stance and opening it up for kind and respectful debate. Another reason why you've quickly become one of my favorites! (Also gives me a chance to rant about books in this social distancing age)
I’m only 10 mins in and you did this so much better than I would have. I loveee how Balanced this video is.
I love that you brought up preference. I’m watching the hunger games currently and it’s reminding me so much of how incredibly complex the character relationships are.
Wow you have some incredible thoughts here WOW
You're so well-spoken! I couldn't have said any of this better myself and I think it's such an interesting conversation because there have been a lot of differing opinions as of late.
i was really struggling how to feel about Daniel Greens video and his points, but after watching your video i finally can make sense of my thoughts. love the video it was great. i would love to see you and Daniel green have a discussion.
I totally agree, I often try to read adult fantasy and it usually feels really "blunt"... The plot just doesn't have the same appeal of YA novels to me and female representation definitely plays a role in it! I wish there was a kind of mix between YA and adult fantasy that could appeal to adults with a taste that doesn't completely allign with the classical Tolkien-esque fantasy style
Also the "confused non-native speaker" part 😂😂 I really felt that
I feel like they tried to adapt through New adult books but it became only a genre for college romance instead of proposing other genres with characters that are about 20 years old.
I agree with most of what you say here even if I never really thought about it before. I tend to read what interests me without paying attention if it's YA or Adult
I feel like, where YA fantasy is saturated with romance, adult fantasy doesn't really have any at all. Or if they do it's bad and just to push the plot. Not that romance shouldn't be important to the plot but...you know what I mean. Either a lack of romance or a lack of really character focused narratives throws me off. I feel like adult fantasy is usually very plot heavy and all world building which isn't a bad thing, I obviously want a good plot and world, but characters make stories for me and when there aren't a ton of character moments I feel myself losing interest quickly. I want really fleshed out relationships between characters and YA more easily provides this. YA tends to focus more on what the characters are feeling and how they interact with each other. I hope this made sense.
I feel adult fantasy is more character driven and ya is more plot focussed
I'm not a big YA reader, mostly because I feel they tend to have a distinct writing style I'm not into. But I have some YA that I love! I also can't stand romances, but it's not just YA, I also don't like romance in adult books either. With the little fantasy I read, I agree with your analysis. Another author that I think does well with branching across "ages" in writing and stories is Brandon Sanderson. Also, both forms of 'adult' are correct 😁
Something that I do when I go to read a book, is I try not to think about if it's YA or not. I read books that I think I will enjoy, it just so happens to mostly be YA books.
Mark Lawerence's Book of the Ancestor series is a great series that could bring in more readers who typically read YA.
When A Court of Thorns & roses was released in French it was marketed/selled in the adult section :). I am surprised to hear that it’s a YA book!
Wow Leonie! This is a difficult (but interresting) topic and i think you really nailed it!! This was a proper analasys about a genre and you really hit every aspect of it without pushing your own like's and dislike's onto other people! Well done!
It's so true YA gets people into reading as a hobby which is the true strength whether you continue to read YA or move past it.
YA actually amalgamated so many different sub-genres that later on we can choose which sub-genre we might choose as the main genres. Like
six of crows might get people into more of the heist theme as the main theme of a book or relationships/friendships books.
I love your point that some of us have YA to thank for being readers in the first place!
I think the new adult genre needs revamped for the people who read between adult and YA, like I think there should be a distinction of the target audiences between 13-18 bc 13 year olds are very different from 18 year olds. Maybe the books that are “targeted” to YA but read a little older (like Six of Crows and ACOTAR) should be new adult
The books should be marketed as teen (11-18) eg Becky Albertali, Harry Potter, The Cruel Prince, To all the Boys I’ve Loved Before, Taran Matharu or young adult (16-24) eg Sarah J Maas, Rainbow Rowell, Adam Silvera, V E Schwab, Red White and Royal Blue with those ages as the target audiences. It’s fine for an author to grow with their audience, but at the end of the day YA is meant to be a targeted age range rather than a genre. This would allow for YA to grow and develop while teen would stay true to its roots. It’s okay for 33 year old Sheila to read YA novels but it’s not okay that she has more influence on YA as it is than actual teenagers.
I really appreciated all the thorough reasons you bring up in your discussion of this "YA bad????" issue. I personally avoided YA in high school under the misconception that all YA was "for kids" and therefore not valuable reading material. (Granted, this was during an era where paranormal romance, a genre I did not care for, reigned supreme) It took 10 years for me to return to YA and realize how biased and ignorant I was being. And honestly? It was because of my students. They were the ones who got me into reading series and books I never would have otherwise, and then when I read Fangirl by Rainbow Rowell, it further cemented my newly-found appreciation for YA.
I was so scared this would be a rebuttal type video bc i'm a huge fan of Daniel Greene's videos and I'm not gonna lie, my initial thought when I saw this video come up on my subs was "oh no, another video where someone's offended about people not liking YA" but I took a chance omg i am so so so happy this was not what I thought. Loved this video Leonie and I really appreciate how you framed it like a discussion, because that's exactly what this is! and you're right, it largely comes down to preference. You made excellent points and i completely agree with you about ya fantasy readers not finding what they're looking for in the adult fantasy genre, making it hard for them to transition. I would say the adult fantasy genre is getting better in this regard, especially with authors like Brandon Sanderson and V.E. Schwab etc, but completely agree with you. I could go on lmao but just wanted to say, I loved all your points and thank you for a great video
Daniel Green praised Shadiversity's book just for the cloud (The hero use to be the villain, and the story is about him redeeming himself, He tells a woman that redistribution of wealth is theft and kills her, showing now that he was now better bc he used to think like her) And put Jenna Moreci's book on his worst reads, which is a basic fantasy book, well written but nothing special. He seems to praise what his male audience "respects" and considers that "dark themes" is what makes a book good,
@@mmma5082 Male audience?
I actually made a video reaction on Daniel's video too! He did make some generalisations but I think he made a lot of good points about the trends in popular YA fantasy
I completely agree with you! It's a such shame that some people think books need to be 'complicated' or 'deep' to have any value! Especially because like you said everyone has different preferences!
Sometimes a good YA fantasy is exactly what I'm in the mood for and I actually think romance is done better in YA!!
I think New Adult could become a really important bridge between the two, right now I find it pretty hard to distinguish between them because YA is constantly changing
I also think, for readers who ARE teenagers and the literal Young Adults, why do they need to be reading these so called complex and ambiguous novels anyway? For a 16 year old those ARE the complex, ambiguous novels because they are more likely to relate to the topics and themes of love, betrayal, sharp feelings etc. Don’t condescend to a person who is has every right to enjoy these books. There are books I read today as a 30 year old that I could not have enjoyed as a 16 year old. And as you say there are plenty of themes and ideas one can take away from any reading experience.
I did a writing degree and it upset me how there was a pretty outspoken hierarchy of Literature and people smirked at certain titles or authors. One class my friend was pleasantly surprised when I said one of my favourite books (at the time) was Secret Dreamworld of a Shopaholic, a rom com. She found it refreshing, rather than me just saying something more ‘respectable’ to keep face.
At the end of the day, read what makes you happy, and while I agree that YA reaches a wider audience than just literal Young Adults, don’t diminish the reading experience for those young adults by saying their literature is less than something else.
You bring an excellent argument regarding the "growing with the audience" point. I would like to expand it a tad more and say that the fact that YA authors who often toy with the line between *YA* and *adult* by writing these hybrid books are currently having great success with their adult books (maybe) because they might be growing out of it themselves. By having a book branded and marketed by publishers as YA, authors might be prevented from exploring certain themes or issues, or even it might prevent them from writing a certain scene or arc the way they initially wanted.
Take Sarah J. Maas' Crescent City book; because it was marketed as a "fully" adult book, everyone expected it to be a total smut fest (and I mean, yeah) yet there is a main character that got trauma & depression and a hella ton of other issues going on. Or Leigh Bardugo, who writes YA fantasy that's on the darker side and still went FULLY dark on her adult book without blinking a lash. And more YA authors have announced adult books coming up, like Cassandra Clare and Samantha Shannon. The only author that comes to mind that moves between genre/marketing lines somewhat fluidly (other than Branson Sanderson & Jay Kristoff, signaling the gender point you bring at the end) is V E Schwab, and she does manage to bring up certain topics in her stories while staying more grounded within the publishing limitations, I think.
That's my hot take. Thanks.
What a great video! I completely agree with your points on marketing/reader ages/genre expectations. I always get looked at funny when I say I love YA books best, even at 24. It's not about ranking genres, it's about loving books!
I love this video. I agree with so much of this. When I was a teen i loved Ya because it bridged that gap for me from middle grade to adult. And for the contemporary genre i struggled to make the transition from ya contemporary to adult because a lot of the themes didnt apply to me and I didnt relate to the characters as much until I was in my late 20s. As for fantasy, i have a hard time finding fantasy books that i find as enjoyable as I did when I was reading ya fantasy and maybe I'm not finding the right books. I do agree that ya shouldn't grow with the audience like that's why we have adult fiction.
This was such a good video! As a bookseller, I can already see how much the YA market has changed the fantasy market. I like that you bring up gendered issues (like how adult fantasy was/is marketed mostly to men and YA fantasy is marketed mostly to girls/women) and I think you can also see this with racial and queer stories too. Recently I've even seen diverse authors of adult speculative fiction start to write for YA too because there's so much room for diversity there. But I think adult fantasy will grow this way too as publishers see how well the newer adult fantasies with the "YA vibe" do. I'm here for it honestly. There are also some really good older adult fantasy titles written by women out there that I think would appeal to YA readers who want to read some adult fantasy. Octavia E Butler and Robin Hobb are my faves!
I'm late to the party on this, but I thought this was a great analysis, well balanced and fair. You also brought up some interesting things I've never really thought about before - such as adult and YA contemporary being very similar in genre, just aimed at different age groups; whereas YA fantasy and adult fantasy do feel like totally separate genres beyond merely the age of the audiences they're marketed at. You're spot on with that. Fab video.
thank you, I appreciate that!
Update: Just finished watching the video & you address the 🐘 in the room but definitely think it’s a huge part of the issue.
I also think a lot of the criticism aimed at YA literature and YA readers often has misogynistic undertones to it. YA is often read by young women (not only though obvs) and that’s wrongfully coded as inferior in the same way that the readers themselves are often labelled. Patriarchy heh. Really interesting video! 📚
Carlijn P Carlijn P This is a societal issue which publishers react to rather than the other way around. When editing, designing the cover, creating a marketing campaign (and everything else that goes into making a book) you analyse the demographic of readers that we have the data for and look at competitive titles for comparison which often means these books stay in YA. At the end of the day we want to sell our books and we need to reach as many readers as possible (including the general public, outside of bookish circles) and this may be sticking with an already established genre and look. I work in Marketing in a big publishing company so I can only speak from my experience!
Carlijn P Also so much blame for this gets put on people in marketing but trust me we do not have as much power as people think we do haha - these are all editorial decisions 😂
In general I also see this trend that guys seem to prefer that their books have good complex world building and plot heavy things while girls have a preference for character dynamics and character growth which includes romance. I feel like that contributes to women perferring YA and men liking Adult books
Aimun Afaq That’s a really generalised gender stereotype and so binary...
Claire Fenby if you compare what female booktubers like about a book and what male booktubers like, that's exactly the kind of the thing I've found in common tbh, but ofc I'm not speaking for everyone, I myself for example don't like romance as much and prefer books to have both kinds of the aforementioned elements in balance. But most of my girl friends who read, really enjoy and don't mind when romance is on focus, they like character driven stories. Just pointing out an observation, you might observed differently based on your experiences idk
honestly like you said it's all about preferences, if you like something read it, your age or whatever shouldn't determine how much you enjoy things. and just cause something isn't serious or dark doesn't mean it's bad it just is what it is. a lot of people translate them not enjoying something to it being bad, while in reality it just wasn't for them and that's fine.
As someone who's read both YA and Adult fantasy since the age of 12 I find these discussions fascinating and agree with a lot from both sides! I like the points you bring up about adult fantasy not catering so much for that 'YA vibe', I've never really heard anyone else bring that issue up that maybe the adult genre needs to change and cater for these readers instead of the other way around. If I'm picking up a YA fantasy I go into it expecting just a fun ride with some teenage angst. I came over from Daniel's channel and subscribed coz I really like your content, so hi from Australia :)
Daniel Greene watcher here. You have made a subscriber out of me. I am an avid adult fantasy and YA reader. While I enjoy YA deeply I always thought of these books as 'lesser' stories. You've changed the way I see them though. So.. thank you!
Thank you for making this video and touching on a lot of great points!
The reason I got into YA is because the books were much more enjoyable to me. And that’s still the case; often when I branch out into adult I don’t find what I’m looking for. Part of that is the pacing: I once read The Time Traveler’s Wife and after 5 evenings of reading the characters were still sitting around the dinner table, talkkng, and that made me just put the book away. Last week I read Flowers For Algernon for my book club and thought the book was good, but the plot often didn’t go the way I wanted it to go. With YA I get wonderful stories, whimsical tales, and in 300 or so pages I often get lots of action and page-turning experiences, at least in the books I choose to read. Also, I think every genre has good, mediocre and bad books. We just have to find the ones we enjoy, and not let people dictate what genre that should be!
I totally agree that adult fantasy could be branched out to tailor to the people currently reading YA fantasy. YA is the reason I now also read fantasy: I love that there’s a made-up world with made-up rules and great characters. With adult fantasy I often cannot focus enough or enjoy them enough. But Ninth House and V.E. Schwab’s books are definitely on my list to try!
Have a wonderful day xxx
i just wish people would realize that people are able to enjoy whatever they enjoy and that they shouldn't be shamed for that and that it is okay to have different opinions :))))
Hey I'm 24 and I don't really enjoy YA that much (can't relate to most books) but I love middle grade!! They're the perfect buffer/comfort books with valuable messages between all the heavy adult books :)
I think my personal take on this topic is that if YA books are going to grow with an age group there should be place where it stops and becomes adult or even new adult but I also think that middle grade should expand. The transition from children's books to middle grade books is pretty smooth, I more naturally went into reading middle grade when I was about 11 but then I went into middle school and the "cool thing to read" was YA books like Hunger Games and Divergent. I thought I was "so mature" to be reading these books meant for older kids when I was 12 or 13. Thinking back on it, I wish I had spent more time reading middle grade (yes I understand that I can read it at any age but my reading tastes have changed and I don't enjoy them as much as I would have back then). I don't think that books marketed for 18-year-olds should also be marketed for 13-year-olds and I think if YA is going to grow to accommodate the large percent of its audience that it in their early 20's it shouldn't continue to market to kids who are 13. (sorry this is an essay, I don't really expect anyone to read it all)
I really, really loved your points here. It was so refreshing to listen to you discuss this topic respectfully and with care for both YA and adult fiction. It just made me feel so happy inside (also appreciated the P&P intro) :)
I totally agree with you. The reason why there is such a large YA audience is because it's been so good at catering to its readers. By "growing up with its audience," YA has continued to be as successful as it is, and I think proves how much this "genre" is a marketing genre/category. As someone who also reads both YA fantasy and Adult fantasy, I do find books in adult fantasy that do feel like YA, however I do still feel that they there are different and I go to both genres for different reasons.
I also do fear for this stretch of content the YA genre is bringing, because I've seen such young readers reading more explicit content in YA books that now cater to its audience that is more adult. I think this is where the genre "New Adult" has been trying to make its place, however it's still not clear the distinction between YA and NA, in terms of its books, and that in itself can cause many issues.
I think the questions asked about YA fantasy can also be asked in Adult Fantasy, and I think both genres know their readers well and cater to them. People read and enjoy YA, so leave them be. We're all just reading what we want to, and at the end of the day it's mostly for entertainment, so why does it matter what we read?
Anyways, I'm sorry this is so long, Just wanted to end by saying I loved this video, and thank you for sharing your thoughts, and leaving a space here for people to discuss this topic! ❤️❤️
27:48 I love the way you said vacuum lol I never realized that's how it would sound phonetically
I totally agree with everything you said, especially your point about the value of a book being more than just being deep and meaningful. Sometimes, I don't want to read something deep and complex, and I reach for something that is "easy" and know I will enjoy, and I resent that it's often construed as less intelligent or less valid. Loved this video and really got me feeling nostalgic about all the YA I grew up reading (and still continue to read)!
While I'm not someone who reads a lot of YA, I think it's not the best 'genre' description. Romance may be very popular in YA books, but one might think 'Adult' books are all romance too, since the romance genre dominates book sales. That's clearly not the popular opinion though, and cuts to a bias. And for the YA books that DO have romance... so what? Why should what other people read cater to my opinions about what they should read. Maybe they find it challenging, maybe they don't, and that's fine either way.
Part of this is also that marketing, sales, and an online platform like youtube naturally trend younger, so someone like me who'd like to see other books included more online, can get frustrated when most youtubers are all talking about the same YA books. I need to remember that doesn't mean these people NEED to read other books though, for my benefit.
Overall these conversations too easily skew toward very self-centered views on what other people should be reading, according to my tastes, and not theirs, which sounds very silly when you take a step back. I still do wish there was a wider range of books popular on youtube though, without condemning anyone.
Like I'd love to hear your thoughts on something like Little, Big for example. So much so I was skimming for an address to mail a copy lol.
I remember when I first discovered YA fantasy and how much of a blessing it was. I grew up reading and was always VERY ahead and got to a point where things on my reading level would be too inappropriate for an elementary/ middle schooler. It was awesome when I found these books that were around my level but weren’t adult books. It’s really sad for me to think about my much younger sister not having a genre that does this for her.
13:30 I stopped reading a couple years ago cause depression and Y.A really helped me getting back into it. It was fun and simple and just easy , the series was ACOTAR, and not only did it bring back to reading but also I rediscovered the joy of hate-reading.
This is a very complex discussion, but I think you handled it wonderfully and brought up some very good points - especially regarding how we don't need all ya to be complex and amazing and have important discussions. I think we should be pushing publishers to restart New Adult as a genre - I feel like that might be the best solution to the problem of eventually stretching the YA genre thin. Much to think about...
I really hate this viewpoint that "you cannot enjoy things that are not your age" as an autistic person who loves things that are more centered towards kids it's SO annoying. I've also seen this with "YA bad" as you've pointed out in this video. I really wish people didn't think that they were better or judge others for liking things that are seen "childish" or something for people younger than their age. This is especially bad with TV shows and even toys/stuffed animals. Love to see someone actually talking about this >w
In one of my classes (I’m a college Writing Major) we read His Dark Material, which is classified as a kids book (ages 10-12). We ended up getting into a discussion about age ratings and why we classifying books by “this is for kids / this is for teens / this is for adults” and there are obvious reasons as you get into certain topics but not every book is this way. In terms of “his dark materials” is messed up, and I mean really messed up when you begin to look more into it (the first books evolves ripping the souls away from children so that why they remain ‘pure’ and only get worse from there). We place labels of age into books and while they can have that value for target audiences it’s not fair to point fingers and say “YOU’RE TOO OLD FOR YA” when really that’s all it is, a target demographic. And this ends to only really go one way, if you are younger reading YA or adult that it’s just that. I don’t personally like YA novels, especially since I don’t feel I connect with the characters anymore but personally I could care less what other people choose to read. YA novels are riddled with flaws but so is any subcategory of books and so i think people should just focus more on giving constructive criticism or not pay attention to the genre if you know you don’t like it.
I think the whole coming of age, discovering yourself ist the ya Vibe for me
Girl, your English is impeccable!!!
I agree with you with the marketing part. I am currently reading six of crows, which I really enjoy but it does seem to me that it was kind of written as if it was for "adults" but the ages of the protagonists were just lowered to the teenager years so it can appeal more to the masses. I mean - the book is still really really good so far, but one can't deny that some "YA books" are deliberately targeted to young-adult readers.
This is such a great video. I’m not into ya and i must admit it’s easy to slip into condescension just because i wasn’t familiar with it. But you really made me understand why people read and love it and how the lack of expansion in other genres have kinda kept ya in a pen rather than them doing to themselves.
Thanks for the insights! I'm coming over after your interview vid with Daniel Greene.
I don't typically read YA, but recently read and loved Carry On by Rainbow Rowell. I only realized it was YA when I paused on the tier lists you showed and noticed it there. I know it had a young protagonist, the book had clear Harry Potter references, and was reasonably light in tone. I was just a bit unaware of what classifies something as YA and didn't pay attention to the labels on goodreads :)
Full disclosure : I rarely read YA (never really have). I also don't check, before I pick up a book, to see what the recommended age is. I do, however, enjoy a good coming of age story (HT build a Girl; The Diamond Age: Or, A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer; or Robert McCammon's Boy's Life), & they are often YA. I also highly encourage people to pick up Bambi by Felix Salten (1923 pre-disney) or The Fox & the Hound by Daniel P Manix (1967 also pre-disney), both are labeled as "children's books", both are excellent reads.
I thought that "YA crossover" was called "New Adult", I may be wrong. Should YA grow up? what.?. I see what your saying, but I don't see that as the question. I see it as people's changing tastes. They start looking for stories that have a different mix components, not necessarily more or better, just different.
To illustrate my point: I don't often pick up historical fiction. But if that genre would include more alien first-contact & interplanetary travel etc etc ... pretty soon we no longer have historical fiction. Do we have a new sub-genre or super-genre? Who thinks up the genres anyway? (I know people are going to say - it's called alternate history blah blah blah)
I don't think Genres don't need to adapt to individual's changing tastes. I think people should stop worrying about what group they fit in or genre they read from & just read whatever they like.
Also, I can assure you there are plenty of "adult" books that a far cry from complex & deep.
In conclusion of my TED talk; I love you, love your channel. I need some human contact, I'm going to wash my hands now.
As someone who mostly reads contemporaries, I've always had a hard time finding adult books that seemed interesting. Like you said, I think the more fluffy/cute romances are easily carried over to adult romance, but something I always really enjoy in ya contemporaries are that they can also be very deep. I read a lot of ya contemporaries about feminism, mental health and discrimination. Within adult, I can usually only find those topics in literary fiction and then it's usually what the entirety of the book's about. I love that with ya, you can have books about those serious topics, that are also romances or about friendships. It feels like within ya, it's easier for a book to be different genres in one
I just hate how it's so romance filled. I have no problem with romance being a subplot, but when it actually becomes the plot and the auther puts the actual plot in the backstage it becomes annoying.
It was YA that killed my love of reading for a while. My AroAce ass already felt bombarded by romance irl and then my escapism started shoving it down my throat too. I always hoped the single girls in them would stay single and happy but nope. Gotta have a boyfriend if you want to be happy 😑
I loved the found family elements and so many other elements but the constant romance and my inability to find a YA with no romance back in the day just made me put books down for a while.
Thank you. We need more of this kind of video! I dont get it why Daniel Green made a 2 part video roasting a genre that he doesnt read and like. Yes YA is problematic but as a YA lover I feel offended. Booktube doesnt need negativity and every one is entitled to read any type of books they want to enjoy. Just enjoy the books you like! There are so much good YA out there.
And also... criticizing books and judging other people's taste doesn't make you superior or more of a reader.
As someone who frequents Daniel's channel (but it also a staunch reader and lover of YA), I think he was motivated by trying to explain why he doesn't discuss YA fantasy on his channel, but I think he should have actually tried to read more YA books first. It was very obvious to me watching his videos that he didn't have a lot of first hand familiarity with the genre.
i just find he looks down on things he doesn't necessarily like, that's why i don't watch his videos anymore
I remember picking up Tithe by Holly Black and the romantic tension and brutal faerie world and emotional angst from all the characters just filled my little 14-year old heart with goodness. I agree that effort should be taken to keep YA as it's own genre, appealing to the desires and headspace of tweens and teens to escape into some fantasies that are more intense than children's books but not veering into overly adult situations. I know some of the stuff that's out now would've held me back from feeling safe escaping into relatable books that were made for that version of my mental and emotional reality.
this video was very well thought out and executed! also your english is extremely well !
As someone who loves fantasy I related SO MUCH to this video. 100% agree with you
this is super interesting to watch after watching Daniel Greene's videos. I agreed with a lot of points he raised about YA, a 'genre' that I usually don't like very much. However, you're totally correct that there's no issue with a book not being challenging/complex/deep. When I do read YA, its usually because i want to enjoy something fun and cute (majority of the time) & there's nothing wrong with a book doing that for a reader. Greene's arguments can all be true but that doesn't mean people shouldn't enjoy YA. It's like reading middle grade, which are some of the most dumbed downed books I've ever read but they're still great for what they are.
This video gave me so much to think about lol
I really am starting to think that it's not YA that needs to change, it's adult fiction that needs to start absorbing "YA vibe" books with darker themes and slightly older characters
Yes especially the dudebros gatekeeping
As a man who is not the target YA audience and it not being very big when I was, I can say that from the few YA books that I have read the backlash against it is overblown. Also want to bring the whole YA = bad thing because it is supposedly not deep enough and that people should read more adult. Two of the more popular adult novels and personal favorites are the Discworld series and Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, which are fun and entertaining and not overtly dark. Another point is that YA vibe does seem to equal easier to read because of the faster pacing and interesting POVs, if you take the adult fantasy's with their massive tomes and occasional meandering plots, this would feel like a breath of fresh air. Lastly, it is true that there are not enough women writers in adult fantasy and that why it is good that the women from YA are crossing over, which also means they can bring over the vibe from YA. Sorry for this long rant, just needed to get this off my chest
If you liked Hitchhiker's Guide, you should read Greegs and Ladders.
I definitely agree that I have a hard time finding what I want to read in adult books. With the notable exception of historical fiction because my mom and I have similar tastes and she knows what she is looking for. But like, I don’t want graphic sex, or slow fantasy books, or books where the characters are held at arms length. Also adult books tend to not get the beautiful covers that YA and kids books get and I’m sure that on a more subconscious level is playing into it. Adult books just don’t naturally draw me in. Most adult books I read I didn’t find myself, I found them because YA readers on youtube gave them rave reviews.
I really enjoy fantasy and most fantasy is YA and I have seen a lot of good ones, but there are a lot of flaws that need to be worked on in some of them.
I do have to admit, it is a little weird that there's some taboo about adults reading YA; considering that a large audience of adults watch G and PG movies and shows, but there doesn't seem to be as much judgment there.
I didn't know it at the time but a then-friend let me borrow a book and it would turn out to be my exposure to YA. My friend was very well-read, intelligent and opinionated so a recommendation from her was good as anything so I started to read the book. It was Barry Lyga's "Boy Toy" and lemmmme tell you, as an awkward 14 year old guy beginning highschool, the book was hard to get through. It dealt with a lot of very Adult themes, a lot of very adult problems, trauma, troubled relationships, anger, resentment, guilt, and fear. Not to mention intrigue, lust, possession, toxicity, happiness, taboo and convention. I loved the book but looking back now a good 7 years later, I think a book like that is what a Young Adult novel should be like. We shouldn't pretend that young adults are except from the problems and pains of regular ol' "adults." No, they often get dealt the same terrible cards without any of the advantage of experience, but it's those unfortunate years which give us our paltry wisdom. It's not that Young Adult fiction should be darker because that's what more serious fiction is, it should be darker because life for young adults is just as dark. We have family who suffer from addiction, we know people who are assaulted, sexually, physically, or otherwise, or we ourselves were/are, we experience racism, tragedy, bad luck. Sure, escapism should be there, but I find it inspiring to see someone suffer and go on, to triumph not so much through victory as through survival, to grow and develop, and become something more beautiful because of the struggles and the scars. We do youth a disservice but sectioning off these ideas and problems.
I think this was a very good conversation to be had. I think at the end of the day it all comes down to preference and it’s as simple as if you personally don’t like a book or genre then you don’t have to read it and you don’t have to look down upon the people who do read those books and genres.
I personally am really picky with YA but there is a lot of good YA books out there that I think shouldn’t be grouped in with poorly written ones.
one year later I'm here watching this videos, but I can't help but say that I LOVED THE MENTION OF PRIDE AND PREJUDICE
I really agree with you in this video. Also, i think that there should still be books in the YA genre that are intended for younger people (i want the YA genre to be all the way from nevermoor to like acotar). Our generation had the chance to grow up with twilight and the hunger games, but what about the younger readers? Are they supposed to fall in a hole between middle grade and “older YA”? In am not saying it will go away but like i just want it to stay.
Also, i really don’t understand why there is a general consensus on not liking divergent, twilight and all of the others? Why do we need to get these books down? Like you likes it when you were younger so it is not valuable anymore? Adults saying YA isn’t valuable is the same to me (the same to YA reader that dislike their older favorites because they are “older”)
Don't let other people tell you you can't like what you like. Whatever reason they may give.
I agree with you, I'm an almost 14 year old and i got into YA last year I read everything everything, five feet apart and the infernal devices wich I all loved however I then lend a court of thorns and roses from the library and I started reading it and I felt like IS THIS FOR MY AGE??? I love YA but I don't know wich books are published for adult YA readers and wich ones are actually published for teens and I don't really like that...
I think the problem with our society is that the only literature we read is YA. We have forgotten how to read the "classics" or good quality books. It is okay if you read YA books (I myself have read them) you just have to be aware that MOST are like junk food for your body. While good quality books are like healthy foods that nourish your mind, body, and soul. We need to have more of a balance of what we read just like we have a balance on how we eat. (The reason why I emphasize MOST YA books is mainly because of "Nothing" by Jane Teller that doesn't have the typical YA plot and gets you thinking.)
omg just stfu 😭😭 “nourish” “junk food” sweetheart people read for fun these “ya books” aint harming them like how junk food does i dont get it lmao . such a stupid argument lord
i'm so glad i watched this video because you put into words how i am feeling because i am someone who reads a lot of YA, and still reads a lot of it, especially in Fantasy and over the last couple of years or so is, when i transitioned to some Adult Fantasy because of some authors who started writing Adult fantasy like SJM. a lot of Booktubers make me feel like trash sometimes when they constantly Bash on YA and i wish people would approach the subject more respectfully like you did so thank you
sorry if my thoughts are jumbled you are awesome by the way Leonie
Some thoughts on crossover YA: Some writing, like Six of Crows, really does feel like it would be well-suited as adult fantasy, especially because the characters definitely do not sound 17 and would easily suit as adults but also? I've been reading that there's definitely gatekeeping against female authors in adult fantasy and that may be a reason a lot of them are aging their fantasy down? And also that, even though it's probably partly for marketing, YA seems much more accepting towards diversity?
Anyway, great video! I really enjoyed your thoughts and how clearly you expressed them.
Funnily enough I agree with both you and Daniel Greene. YA fantasy doesn't satisfy me for the reasons mentioned by Daniel. Adult fantasy is the genre that needs to change and incorporate more non-sexualised, complex female protagonists and tropy-er plot lines.
Im 34 and still enjoy good ya! I dont think i will ever completely walk away it helped start my love for books❤