@@darktenki5893I felt it was the opposite. I was confused about some stuff Techone said Pokke did when it didn't happen. The issue really is Pokke was quite neutral while Saintontas was just straight up Kurobot and a Hoyo hater.
Perhaps, but it might be Tectone and MrPokke crying, if trends continue and they suffer the fate of r/gachaming the favorite site of BOTH Tectone and MrPokke.
Someone tell em skip button is clickable. If others dont like the story let others skip, if u hate skipping then dont. These idiots who defend hsr and genshin having no skip button are literally mentally illed.
Interesting enough I'd probably be most interested in the story if I could skip everything except the major cutscenes. Forcing me to listen to people talk and forcing dialogue options on me that don't impact the story at all, completely ruins any intrigue I would have with the story.
as a hsr shill and wuwa bot i must say saint did pretty well , him saying that tower is a good endgame is something i disagree with but saying thats its "comparatively better" is true even though its a shill take . the part i most agree with saint is that kuro is an underdog and deserves a little bit praise , which is why whenever someone d-rides kuro it doesnt always seems bad as long as they highlight the negatives too . The amount of hate wuwa gets on twitter and reddit is atleast 50% more than hsr
I have hope in Kuro making endgame better with time. Hopefully success of PoE2 will bully industry into being better with endgames (and well everything else)
Genshin made spiral abyss bad through hp bloat and immunity frames, and once ToA was released ppl assume it's bad cuz it's bad in the first place. In general it's a better version but in the end it's just from worse to slightly worse, and it's hard to make things good once they're bad to that point.
@@tabkg5802 spoiler: . . . . . . . . . according to leaks: 2.0 will have new permanent engame similar to Phantom Pain Cage of PGR. So we just have to be patient. Also, apparently Pincer Maneuver Warriors event is permanent too, just like the Ilussive Realm it has seasons that changes things each half patch and its going to keep improving as devs receive feedback on how to handle these new endgames in a way that satisfies the players.
WuWa gets more hate because it's frontman, Saintontas actually took down the Gacha Revenue site by himself. He is also the reason people don't trust r/gachagaming and Prywden anymore
I noticed the Pokke likes to twist the questions a lot, like he's purposefully trying to dodge the questions in favor of him not looking like a bad person, but he looks so bad doing it, as well as twisting the other people's words. That might just be me assuming things (whether he's doing it on purpose or not..) but the point is, he looks so guilty doing it that it's not even funny
Fr like in 1:01:59. Tectone: "Do HSR need a skip button?" Pokke: "Would I be a shill?" Like men is not that hard to answer. It's a yes or no question. He is so scared of what people will think of him, that his first response was to ask about optics. I start to feel more and more like he's just opportunist.
@@darktenki5893because he life in the internet, saying something bad about the content he make to get money will backfire the channel/reputation. Different situation with tectone. And especially in marketing industrial you can not blatantly speak bad (even tho its critism lmao depend on the company) unless you don't want the sponsor
PGR endgame needs a lot of characters which wuwa currently doesn't have, so how can they implement that right now and we see people clearing toa all three towers with danjin solo, so him saying attributes in tower makes you pull for characters is a shitty take. You just kinda want skills and good rolls on echoes.
Also don’t forget it’s much easier to build characters in pgr cuz all you need is their 5 star weapon bare minimum and you can get their memory set from any event if u farm hard enough
Another Wuwa shill. Like Fob and Jan said, u forgot majority of playerbase are casuals who cant clear With 5 star chars, let alone Danjin. Bcs there are ATTRIBUTE DMG BONUS + Addition Dmg Bonus that directly benefit current Limited char, there is a incentive to get rated up Limited Char so that they can clear TOA with a few more stars TO CERTAIN DEGREE.
like they already said, we need a prduct to be good NOW, wuwa devs had years to impliment the good parts of genshin and even their own games yet they didnt,
"Supposed hp inflation" why bro saying it like its just a theory theres proof!! And he himself said 400k doesnt feel like 400k anymore in his Moc clear (i think)
Legit so true, I enjoyed this podcast a lot, it was very enjoyable to just hear people talking and debating. Some things got heated, but that's the point of a debate at the end of the day But good god, hearing Tectone START with "supposed hp inflation" was insane lmao. 5 million hp boss in the newest AS was just too ridiculous
Basically if you are a fan of something you are a shill. Noted. Everyone have his own definition, rules and exception it seems in that podcast. Saintonas was the goat.
This was very hard to watch, tbh. People pretend to be nice and neutral but then they lash out at each other as soon as they smell blood. Really dissapointed in some people. I am glad that Tectone actually stepped in when things got too heated. great moderation skills.
Yeah, this video is just gacha tribalism at its finest. There is nothing constructive at all. This video would have been so much better if they get people who actually play these games and they can criticize their own main game. Someone like Ryuuku Sensei, Sweetily, Doro, Braxophone and Gacha Smack would have done a much better job than whatever this is.
@@forthewin2766 Agree, Pokke and Saint are unbearable to watch cuz they both can't acknowledge their game's flaws. You can also tell Fob and Jena hate Saint cuz of his annoying WuWa glazing videos. Ryuuku Sensei would have done a better job in Saint's place. Cuz unlike Saint, he has actually played both Genshin Natlan and HSR Penancony. He has also criticized WuWa many times like the repetitive harem story. I don't agree with Gacha Smack with many things but that guy can criticize HSR unlike Pokke. Nobody in this video has really played Natlan but they keep shitting on Genshin which I know is a cool thing to do in Tectone's channel. Fob hasn't really explored Natlan and that guy is completely out of touch with the non-whale playerbase. Pokke only does the Natlan story quests. Someone like Doro and Brax should have represent Genshin here.
Alluding to Jenazad's point: Judging the endgame mode while ignoring the in-game mechanical differences between games doesn't really make sense and is a short-sighted way of thinking. I feel like saying that TOA in Wuwa is the same as Genshin's Abyss or the equivalent modes in HSR and ZZZ (don't know about HI3) just because it has a timer is an argument that ignores any nuances. The skill expression is way different in those games. In Wuwa, you can compensate for the lack of good Echos and characters with how you play to the extent that Hoyo games can't. The difference between someone who plays at a high level and someone who’s decent at the game is astronomical. For example, there’s a CC called Maygi who cleared TOA 30/30 using Encore S0 with a 1-star level 1 weapon or JulleeusToo who complete it with Chixia solo. This level of skill ceiling doesn’t exist in Hoyo games making them more of a gear check. Even in ZZZ, which is the most skill-based Hoyo game, the skill expression is not as high. And HSR is pretty much just a relics and characters check. Also, I think that TOA is more of a rotation check than a DPS check, while Hologram is a dodge check and learning boss mechanics, and Illusive realm is roguelike so it's character build check. They focus on different aspects of the game. Additionally, you can swap weapons and echos between characters in TOA. And compared to Genshin there is only 1 stage/chambers per floor so if you want to play a different comp in stage 3 you need to do the previous stages again times 2 because you play 2 teams at once. And there are many mechanics in Genshin that force you to play different characters like gimmick bosses with shields that you need to use concrete elemental type on them etc.. Because you do 1 stage at a time this is less of a problem in TOA even with bosses that have element resistances.
Yea that felt odd to me like we see people clearing toa all three towers with danjin solo, so him saying attributes in tower makes you pull character is a shitty take. You just kinda want skills and good rolls on echoes.
I really resonate with this take. As someone who recently started Genshin (about a year ago) and has played Wuwa since launch. I was able to to only 36-star the abyss just this cycle. While was able to fully clear the tower after getting two DPSs (XLY and Jiyan). I like the think I have a handle of the mechanics, but it feels like sometimes part of the reason for not clearing is RNG of enemies and needing to do bigger numbers. I'm already at the point where I know the optimal rotations of a team, but still don't hit the numbers despite what should be a decent build. And since there is nothing else to optimize in terms of rotation since most already know the one perfect rotation, the only other form of damage increase is artifacts. Now with Wuwa, at first I was struggling the same way after being able to level my DPSs to level 90. The problem was that I did things like in Genshin, doing the usual rotation of support skill burst, subdps skill burst, main dps field time repeat. However despite this I was always short of 3 stars, but could at least actually beat the boss. Then I decided to look up how others on UA-cam cleared with my team. And weirdly enough, these videos had worst echo builds but cleared with 30 seconds to spare. And the rotation itself was much more complicated, and that's when I realized there is so much more that can be done to optimize your damage. Like even with the same trio of characters, there are completely unique rotations and cancels with good clears. Not only that, but even supports in this game require more nuance depending on the character they are played with. It's isn't like skill, burst for support then leave, they need to be integrated in the rotation even after their gimmick is unleashed since even their actions effect everyone's energy. I think the reason characters like Sanhua and Verina are valued so much is because people are so used to the Genshin style of skill, burst then leave. But more complex rotations find a way to optimize a character's use even if they aren't as instant. And this isn't even considering the fact that TOA allows Echo and Weapon sharing, so making resource saving easier compared to Genshin. And I honestly think the vigor system of TOA better. People initially said you need 3 teams, but you only need two just like Genshin, but it just gets easier the more characters you have since you aren't force to commit to a team. The only floors that need an invested team are the final floor or the left and right, and the middle tower. The others, I soloed with Rover who is a good DPS which is free. But they can honestly be cleared by any decent dps, such as the standard 5 star DPSs. Even better if the lower floor DPS can share the Echoes of the main DPS of harder floors. I dont see how the vigor system is bad in anyway compared to the Abyss. TLDR: I think Genshin's Abyss doesn't not have as much room for skill expression to improve time clears, often instead requiring just optimizing artifacts instead to improve times. Cuz once you understand what a character's kit does and know their optimal rotation order, there's not much to improve but get better artifacts (or maybe get a better supporting character for the DPS). While Wuwa's TOA goes beyond that since skill expression allows much more room for optimization beyond better equipment, echoes, but also the rotation of characters. And I honestly see TOA as a skill check to consistently weave rotations (while also adapting to the enemy via dodges) in a decent time.
Couldn't agree more the current tower the Mephis, was a so hard to get 3/3 for me even tho I have alright echoes and then I decide to watch a rotation.. guess what, I cleared it with 20s to 3 mins! There is definitely more skill envolved that just stats in wuwa I don't know about the other games since I haven't played them but I agree with that point.
You expressed what I think about this really well into words. That jenazad guy is so insufferable, no idea why people in the comments seem to like him. Guy is seriously dumb
I feel like you can say the same thing about ZZZ with players clearing all endgame with solo Billy and reaching 100+ levels in the endless tower with decently built characters. Maybe it's because I put in more time in ZZZ but the enemies in WuWa TOA feel more like hp sponges than Zenless.
@@Gheniel_ i mean is he though? like another comment said, he ignores tthe bad parts of wuwa completely but is quick to point out other games, he completley ignored the part about wuwa having a timer in TOA which is absolute dogshi
If "Kill Bill" is a movie then the title of this Gachachast should be "Kill Saintontans". The sheer amount of animosity he faced could be felt through the screen.
Counterpoint, I came back to Genshin when Natlan came out without looking into character kits, pulled Mulani PURELY OFF HER TRIAL NOT KNOWING IT DIDNT WORK OUTSIDE OF NATLAN, but the exploration is the entire reason I wanted her, they didn't make it obvious enough and I don't think its fair for them to expect you to look into every detail about a character, honestly feels like I got scammed tbh
@Luendrax many people think of it as if their character is suddenly useless outside of natlan where in reality they just gain a bonus inside of natlan . Like chasca is quite literally faster and flies for longer than wanderer outside of natlan but people has to be hyperbolic because it's cool to shit on genshin so they ride the bandwagon . I'm pretty sure most of the people that critisize the game doesn't even play it and are saying what they are saying because their content creator said so.
@@ahmedmubarak751 im done with genshin after fontaine so im not gonna say something about natlan exploration. but im gonna say it again locking characters full potential outside of the region is shameless thing to do ...
@@ahmedmubarak751yes but the issue is that said characters gain very noticeable buffs in Natlan compared to outside of it. Most people just PREFER not having this problem at all. It’d be one thing if there was a gadget ( you know the tools meant for qols( that allowed them to still benefit from these buffs outside of natlan, that way no one could complain but everyone’s issue is they can’t fully utilize these mechanics for no actual reason because it’s not like anything will effect hoyo in the long run so it’s just a pointless restriction for more money
Fob defending Natlan exploration when he didn't even tried to explore without premium characters is pretty out of touch ngl. Having characters that have similar mechanics like Natlan "Pokemon" is already a big advantage over F2P experience because you can use them anywhere without the need to look and transform for specific "Pokemon". Characters are also much faster, like Xilonen climbing speed is so fast compared to "Pokemon" speed or Mualani being fast on both land and water when "Pokemon" is very slow on land. Even without the newest characters it's still bad to explore without characters like Scaramuche or Yelan etc. So it is true that Genshin's exploration experience is just much worse without characters.
Absolutely agree. Natlan exploration is the most shameless implementation of exploration powercreep I've ever seen. Like in wuwa they're adding stuff like that shooting gadget to help with puzzles instead of us having to switch characters. But genshin? Nah gotta pay for better exploration on top of already having the inferior exploration compared to wuwa
It’s pretty simple right? Considering game’s out for 6 months lol. Wuwa was already criticized right from the start but Pokke wants more negative specifically from Saintonas. You can’t expect more problems when the devs are actively making things better. It’s like forcing issues that have already been addressed. It doesn’t work like that. Here’s the thing we could look forward to more negatives in the future how about that lol
Bro, I was surprised Pokke was kinda db when he didnt realise this and kept using this to frame Saint as a shill. It is just simple that if the game has less negatives, it mean the pros outweighs the cons. Highlighting the truth (Pros >>> cons) doesnt mean ur a shill. It means Wuwa is in a pretty good track.
I think it's more how Saint basically talks and makes content as if Wuwa is the second coming of Christ and ruins all other gacha games because every part of it is better than others.
In minute 34 they arguing about an already ongoing product vs new product. Lets say Apple making a brand new product(like idk monitor) compared with a smartphone.. its doesn't make sense, right?
@@jajanchannel2279 yeah thats exactly what kuro does, they think before implementing things that can overwhelm players like a heavy endgame like PGR's, we need to expand character roster and variety first.
jenazads pgr takes was sht btw none of the gachas had that many endgame modes from start even pgr but he wants everyting on pgr in wuwa even tho characters wont be enough for that yet
I like Wuwa gameplay the most. I like ZZZ-s animation and cut scenes the most. Hsr start was amazing and I liked it more at the time then when I played Genshins. Genshin had the elemental system that was intresting for me at that time but now I dont really care about it anymore If I have to say positives tho...Kazuha is cool.And there were iconic moments in it for sure. But I be real.My fav is Wuwa cause of the gameplay I enjoy it alot.Theres something about the game that makes me want to return to it and even when I was in the hospital or at home laying in bed sick or in pain I kept thinking about wanting to play Wuwa cause Camellya was coming out.
@@darling.............. honestly im mixed about wuwas story theres some parts i like and other parts i dont care about.like idk how many waifus we will have after camellya and shorekeeper but I get ya for disliking it :D
Saint made a good point about TOA being not as predatory as other gacha (I'm not sure about genshin but hsr definitely fall into this category). Middle tower is the hardest tower generally. You can clear side tower quite easily with well built standard 5 star characters. Given that they only modify one side of tower to shill new characters, that's like having only moc 10 stage being the shill stage instead of moc 12. Having one side tower being shill tower doesn't create as much pressure on the player to pull to clear end game contents as hsr edit: typo
Yeah it's like MOC 12 having a general buff for all characters and MOC 10 having a good buff for the limited characters which is fair and doable. HSR's MOC,PF,AS feels so predatory compared to wuwa's ToA.
Not to mention. that its doable. in genshin my characters dont have the good artifacts even after grinding everyday. in Wuwa, bearable-good artifacts is enough. not to mention, ToA doesnt have the character gated issue. you can just make 1-2 main dps team and focus on the hardest stage. *Just use your weakest team to clear the lower stages for all 3 crystals, and use your strongest for the higher stages*
@@pchan6818 for me it's the opposite, I started playing genshin when arlecchino released and only do dailies till now. But I can almost fully clear abyss with dogshit artifact, cause I never farm them. Everyday I farm echoes in wuwa, still cannot clear ToA lol. I'm always off by 5-10 second from 3 star the middle tower. The fact that I lost all of my 50/50 in wuwa and didn't get Jinshi or any sign weapon doesn't help either. The 4 star weapons are dogshit and it just like my characters don't do enough damage. Somehow in my case, I feel like wuwa is more predatory than genshin lmao
using my comment in Saintontas video: I understand most of Saintontas points in the gachacast means that Kuro is making WuWa less gacha and more game, with less predatory tactics and more skill compared to most gacha games. But IMO he left a lot of openings for people to counter argument like when he says "best in all gacha gaming" or "worst in all gacha gaming" which are extremely polarizing and absolutist, also when he says "my company/game" and "your company/game" it makes them view him as a shill for certain company/game, he needs to give more nuanced takes so people wont have as much of openings to counter argument. For example by using "the game I enjoy better" or "this wuwa feature/system is one of the best in gacha" or "this system in wuwa is better than in MOST gacha games" NOT ALL, MOST I also understand that Saint doesn't think WuWa is perfect, and makes some critique videos but I think he could do some work on his wording Some people in the chat and also guys in the gacha cast were really annoying about the ToA using PGR endgame as example, yet most of them never played PGR once. The argument of PGR endgame is kinda disingenuous becase PGR also didnt have that much to offer in its first year, as it also had to build up bigger roster and player feedback for the endgame content to reach the point where it is today. IMHO I think ToA is fine, its supposed to be that basic endgame that casuals try to clear biweekly by investing in their teams and getting better at the game, its like Saintontas said "its the vanilla endgame" of the game. And people complain about the time limit but thats a thing in like... All gacha games including some PGR endgames (you need to clear in time to get better rewards) and WuWa is no different, the time limit is not only DPS check, it also presses the player to make rotations right, because if they F up the rotation they lose. If they removed the time limit there would be no incentive to grind the game and way less daily player retention, so they have ToA balancing DPS check and a little of skill check with the bosses and its mechanics (which are challenging for casuals). The ToA is just standard endgame but in wuwa it is more optimized compared to GI Abyss, because it lets you use your energy in strategic ways and also lets you share/switch your 5* weapons on your characters. So its more f2p friendly, less predatory and with the game combat mechanics it lets you compensate lack of character investment with your skillsplay to get max rewards. If Kuro made ToA too difficult and sweaty this would be a problem for casuals who just want their astrites, but for sweaty players we have Hologram, Illusive Realm with negative memes, and soon we will have more (in 2.0, TRUST) Some endgame also needs a way bigger roster and we don't have that much character variety in the wuwa yet, so endgames like Babel will take some time to come to WuWa (probably 1 year or so) People expect too many things from a 6 months game that had a VERY rough start, they are recovering from that and going the right way but people are still throwing jabs at them. We just need to send feedback and be patient, the endgame its not that big of a problem as people make it out to be, I know that WUWA IS NOT PERFECT, but yall inflate its problems wayy too much, just wait for a month and you will have alot of permanent content AND new endgame. I dont think there is any winner in this debate, but I agree that Saint can improve the way he words and communicates his ideas, sometimes he is too hyperbolic to convey his ideas, in an imprecise manner or in a way that generates more disagreement than agreement. I also agree that the others have room to improve their argumentation points, because some of their argumentations are also imprecise, just like the point of using PGR endgame as example for WuWa, I know there is some model to be used from PGR to WuWa, but the transition and implementation of that needs to be well thought first to be done correctly without generating bigger problems later, it needs to be done in a way that will not overwhelm majority of players.
I find it weird when people complain about time-gated endgame content, then use PGR as an example. Literally, every other endgame mode in PGR is time-gated. As you said, this is the incentive for players to interact with the game, even minimally, to clear it. The key difference with PGR’s endgame is that you’re competing with other players for better rewards and scores. Right now, TOA in WUWA is way more F2P-friendly compared to PGR’s endgame content. Sure, you can get every character in PGR as an F2P player, but that doesn’t include the weapon, the cub, or the additional copy needed for SS rank-all of which are essential, with a few exceptions. This often pushes meta-focused players to spend money to keep up, because not having the latest character properly built creates massive score gaps between those who have them and those who don’t. Regarding the difficulty of ToA versus PGR: seriously? Anyone who actively plays and keeps up with PGR knows you can just "oonga boonga" through every boss since Gen 2 characters were introduced. The only time PGR feels hard nowadays is if you lack the minimum investment needed to clear the content.
@@datwasty64 I mean if you're using 2nd and 3dx gen character yeah it makes more easy. I also agree with things like PGR having problems getting the weapon and cub compared to WuWa ToA f2p friendliness.
Man, really eloquently worded comment, I agree with pretty much everything that you've said. I think saint could have definitely presented not only his words better, but also made better arguments since some of them fell apart as he lacked some more knowledge about other games like PGR and the competition, Genshin. Also Solo Leveling enjoyer, based.
Even subjective opinions can be logically evaluated. People like to hide behind a shield of subjectivity when it’s convenient for them, especially when they’re unable to defend their stance. This is what Asmon was talking about recently-people lack the ability to think critically. People often say things like 'But I like it.' However, asking yourself, 'Why do I like it?' can be much harder. If you don’t challenge your opinions, you’re just being controlled by your biases. Everyone is biased, and if you deny that you're particularly biased, but it’s important not to act solely on those biases without evaluating your stance. So I don't really like how Jenazad and Pokke make a blanket statement like something is "fun" or "unfun" for players without proper reasoning. I hope Tectone as a moderator will challenge blanket statements made by people who are part of the GachaCast more in the future. Like he kinda did with Pokke about the skip button argument. Because there is no benefit for a player in not having a skip button. Even visual novels have one...
@@queru2284 wtcher3 has skip button bro... bcs they know players can play that game for different reasons or they are not in the mood for story and they just wanna kill things
I love WuWa because the stories they tell are some of the rare stories that got a tear out of me because they were so beautiful, emotional, and well put together. Jinhsi, Shorekeeper, and Encore in particular. I also just prefer the combat in general due to it being more skill based and I always feel like I can improve. The tower I agree is a little ridiculous with the time limits, however, once you get better echos you'll do a lot better. I had dogshit echos on Jinhsi and camellya, and then I got better echos and was able to get closer to 30* than I ever have. Still much more room for improvement for my account which I love. It gives me a reason to come back. To chase that 100%. UL78 and have every limited character. WuWa is the only gacha game that got me to C6 a character (camellya) and that says something as well. I dont spend a lot of money on these games. Camellya is just so fun and unique that I genuinely just wanted to. Kuro shill i dont know, I just love the game and hate to see the needless hate it recieves.
I mean ima be real, acting as if the hoyo games have any less issue in regards to endgame and acting as if wuwa has all these issues is a bit disingenuous. I auto HSR’s endgame every 2 weeks. That shit ain’t endgame. In perspective, wuwa’s tower DOES feel like an actual endgame. Players SHOULD learn to master rotations better. I mean as a person who doesn’t main gacha games (I main fps games), I appreciate having a game mode where I have to lock in a little. Cuz zzz and HSR kinda just get auto’d every time. Also, the cons jenazard said flat out exist in the other games 💀 so I don’t see how those r cons for wuwa when the others also have them. If everyone has them, that’s not a con. Idk, I have more issues with genshin and HSR than I do with wuwa lmfao. The story is actually pretty good, the combat is fun, the endgame IS difficult and can’t really be done half assed unless u whale, and the devs listen. HSR hasn’t listened for a while now. We NEED a skip button and the dialogue is bloated to all fuck. And those same issues I have with genshin too. Let’s not keep attacking wuwa for the same shit HSR and genshin ALSO have.
That wasn't really the issue though. The issue is all gacha games endgame sucks because of their artificial difficulty . But he was arguing against that by saying oh but wuwa has this so it's alittle better than other games . Yeah sure but it doesn't change the fact that it's a shitty system that needs to be addressed.
@@ahmedmubarak751 ima be real, looking for endgame in gacha games is just a genre issue. Any game type where u can just pay for power doesn’t really have an endgame. Pretty sure that’s why gacha games weren’t created to be SIDE games. Hence the energy system. If u want actual endgame play POE, marvel rivals, valorant, league, WoW, street fighter, TnL, etc. literally any other genre other than gacha games. It’s really not that deep. So trying to act as if it’s a con for wuwa to have it when the other games do the same is just disingenuous.
@@Xailei_ nah. Look at zzz tower. Or even hologram in wuwa. The timer doesnt really matter and that is why people love those mode. Abyss/shiyu/toa is just a shit stat check hp sponge mode objectively
Nah, If you have an executive account manager playing the game for you doing the dailies and side quests, you don't really like the game, only certain aspects maybe, but that makes you a shill, and so does only playing the game while streaming.
All I know is wuthering waves at least tries to give you a tolerable experience even if it's a gacha game. I literally felt the same way when playing Guardian Tales, even if Guardian tales had a "bad" endgame design (Arena and Colosseum) I've played Aether Gazer, Honkai Impact and Genshin and their endgame designs are so unbelievably tiring and boring to play
@@Gheniel_ it's really bad. I don't know how it is now but the last time I played was half a year ago when Hersscher of Sentience was free. It's divided by player progress (ranks) and the only way for you to proceed to another difficulty is finish the previous run, which goes for like 1-2 weeks, and not only that, is also hard to the point that you need to spend money to max your characters and inch forward in progress. Memorial Arena is worse than Tower of Adversity or Spiral Abyss, it could not even be compared at all
@@Gheniel_ Nah endgame sucks. -Powercreep run rampant, characters can potentially gets powercreep 3 patches after their initial release -Fucking 80% of the endgame bosses has no actual mechanic than having 10 digit HP count(if you consider pressing dodge or attack at the correct time a "mechanic", you should go play rhythm games at that point, there's a whole ton of mechanics waiting for you over there) -Zero team comp diversity is allowed, one DPS hard stomps a . group of bosses and gets fucked by everything else, then they never cycle those group of bosses again to force you to pull for the new chars. -Elysian Realm, the best endgame mode is also the most hardcore, and repetitive.
I don't know why tectone community hates hi3, but do not listen. If you like PGR endgame then you'll like hi3 endgame because they're that similar in how they work. Only thing now is how combat is vastly different from PGar because of part 2 introducing Astral Ring mechanics@@Gheniel_
the point of the ToA on wuwa is this: - You can clear it with big enough gear and less skill in rotation - You can clear it with weaker gear and more skill in rotation - The tower buff can help in both of the above scenario but it is not strictly required to use for fast clear time - You can also solo the floor with most of the roster with skill and decent gear - The elemental resistance only matter for that exact element. It is worthless for other element. - You realistically only need 2 dps to 30/30 the tower (the other character can be literally lv50 with next to no investment) - The weapon and echo can be swap to other character => save even more investment on gear. - The overdrive zone is not even resetting. its just there as a goal for gear check if u want to do it. only 9 star is required to get all the gem anyway (basically like how babel tower of PGR doesn't give jack shit other than bragging right after 100 point or whatever it called) Overall it feel like you only need skill and gear to clear ToA rather than feel like you need to roll the newest character to clear it.
Yeah, exactly. I just wanna add that skills aren’t just about flashy dodges or parries. It’s more about understanding how the game works. like rotations, resource management, and cancels. Even with top-tier gear, if you don’t get those systems, you’ll hit a wall. A lot of players don’t realize the difficulty often comes from how the game is structured, not just from execution. Open-world and gacha games are more about strategy and planning than raw reflexes. When things feel tough, it’s usually a gap in understanding how to adapt or optimize, not just a gear issue. Play how you want, but if something’s off, there’s a reason. Complaints usually come from not understanding the game’s systems, especially in Wuwa where you can make up for low DPS in different ways. Mastery is all about recognizing those gaps and adjusting. And yeah, with the swappable echoes and weapons, ToA feels super F2P friendly. It saves a ton of materials, and even F2P and low spenders can hit 30/30 doritos. It might take more effort, but it’s definitely achievable.
These guys keep flinging the word shill without knowing what it actually means; a shill is someone who promotes something they don't actually believe in for money
Kurobot v.s hoyoshill lets gooooo edit: btw this realistically was hoyoshill + friends trying to gank kurobot lol. imo saint really won this 1v9. saint had a counterpoint for everything (which is the point of debate) and the dumbasses especially the top middle was like "AHH BUT TOWER BAD HURR DURR", oompa loompa looking ass can't even debate.
Saint entire argument for why toa isnt bad is based on false narrative though, which fob called out. "The buff is generic, therefore you can use any team", except that its the enemy has resistance to an element, you are still limited to what you can use. And yeah, ignore the other 2 towers, coz it ruins the agenda. Of course in typical fashion of people like you, you wont notice that he got hard caught for not even playing games hes trying to criticise. "Natlan is so bad guys, have you seen Google trends(according to sams trends, 1.3 wuwa was probably the worst update of all time), or the most reliable source of all time - TWITTER". Literally tourist takes from him throughout, tectone tried so hard to defend lil bro by consistently switching topics and making limitations such as "only those gacha games are allowed in the discussion "
@@revivemefellas9637 I've seen so much Saintontas glazing in this comments section to the point that it felt like a fever dream. It almost seems like the glazing part itself is a running meme.
Poke going off about how saintontas doesnt talk about the negatives of wuwa, and then when asked about what negatives he should be talking about, he has nothing??? 😭😭😭
@@meltdayo1708 yeahh due, i can't expect myself to stay awake for 2 days without sleeping. (Friday working and Saturday full PoE 2) and i'm not done yet, now i already slept for 3 hour, i'll play this for decade. GOTY indeed.
30:22 not gonna lie the issues bro list just sounds like anything you’d find in most other gacha but because genshin specifically has them it’s magically “ Wuwa is copying genshin” which is the sane argument most people have used since day 1. The idea of 50/50 for example are fine because the only other option short of just eliminating the gacha all together ( which defeats the purpose of the genre) is something like a shard system and while id love to have more of that ( especially if it was something like limbus or pgr for A ranks) I think 50/50 are somewhat better than pity systems before. THE BIGGEST ISSUE HOWEVER isn’t the 50/50 but the fact that they never update the standard pools enough to off set getting the sane batch of characters
lol 3 v 1 is very intetesting to watch and Saint almost won all of the Arguments Its kind of headache 3 didnt understand and has Tectone to explain it But great job saint keep it up
There's a reason why I watched this entire video cause somewhere out there who's a kuro employee taking notes about their games flaws and boom we got it in game implemented that's what great wuwa does
True. I remembered someone on stream complaining about how there is no Echo loadout on the game. Next Patch, they announced they are working on it. I believe your theory now. Kuro is always lurking to see what people want.
Ppl are just calling tower bad without saying how it’s bad. Having a timer doesn’t mean IT’s inherently bad. HP inflation may cause problem but in wuwa currently, if you have mid built characters and good rotation, you should be able to clear it with a minute to spare. Various buff can help you achieve that even easier. The iteration of tower ensures you have all kind of dps and support, which all end game player should have anyway, also it doesn’t have an expiration date.
True. The difference between a skilled player vs an unga bunga player in Wuwa is night and day, about 25% more or less damage. Saintontas proved this after on his stream with an Account review. The guy had a mid level Jiyan, about 80/230 crit ratio. He cleared the Overdrive tower 3 stars with more than a minute to spare.
"The massive flop of the 2.6 story quest...." Game doesn't even have a skip button and I don't remember what happened. It's that bad and we're not being the honksh!t starbucks allegations with that one.
pokke + fob being long time established gacha streamer ganging up on a dude that started making vid few months ago with 22k sub and still losing is insane
Nowdays, the only time I lose sleep to a gacha is when there's an ultra lucrative event like an anniversary and I haven't pulled the unit I want. It overwhelmingly usually only happens with Nikke.
so people in star rail creating their own challenge (1-3 cycles) run and do a tournament about it so they can tell their skills and build apart is ok, but the game giving you timers and making it hard for you OFFICIALLY is bullshit type of difficulty? cant they see the irony? so to them they are left so deprived of a challenge and a way to differentiate their skill base that they started creating their own imaginary challenges but the game giving one to them is bullshit? same goes for genshin in online communities doing the abyss with one character or clearing in 20-30 seconds and comparing highest number damage just to find away to make them selves different from the other players because the game provides none of that but when a game does its shitty design and stupid difficulty spikes? man i swear to god every day the hoyoshills lose touch with logic and reality more and more, the hole has no end to them.
There is a reason why there was only 1 TOA vs that was hosted by Tectone. Gacha streamer skills have very huge gaps in skill. Its not like HSR where Rng gives so much of a variance that skill is barely a requirement to beat thr better player.
@ exactly what i meant, an end game content relying on RNG is a balanced system but they cant handle high hp and a timer and consider bad system? Iam not claiming either systems bad nor good iam just highlighting how hypocritical it is when they completely blind themselves to the irony at hand.
Saint 1vs3 there insane . Gojo(saint) vs Sukuna(pokke) and two sumonned creeps (Fob , Jenazad) . Tectone is gege akutami himself edited : Gege hated Gojo as a character
While discussing TOA they forgot that wuwa has literally given out so many reward that it's not even that difficult to get teams for different elements , like I'm f2p and I have all the five stars except jiyan and zhezhi , I also have the Sig for jinsi , camellya , shorekeeper and not to mention the free 5 star selector . On top of that you can use 4 star characters to beat the tower if you have skills , you can close the gap between 5stsrs and 4stsrs with skills to some extent, extent to which TOA is concerned
Point 1 .. They want to sell character ( earn money for game development) but it upto you if you can clear with other character...like during Camellia release in ToA there is Havoc DMG bonus side Tower it upto you if you can't clear floor with Havoc Rover( skill issue ) for that you gonna try to get Camellia from banner to clear tower Point 2 - wuwa need to add Hologram Reset every 2 week Point 3- Pokke are brain dead person he can't even answer any question right 😂😂 and Middle person whatever his name he want to apply pgr( 5 year ) end game into wuwa (6 month) atleast wait for 1 year then say about it end game.....for Fobmaster is like this ( If you paid money on game then suddenly new game released that complete with your game ..no matter how much good game it is you gonna always compain )
point 1: Solo Danjin and you're done Like literally i don't really think they want players to really pull Camellya endgame-wise since both the ToA and the Pincer event can easily be cleared with Havoc Rover and Danjin 💀
Being a shill for smth that actually is good gives you one hell of a footing against being shills for sewer dumps. I mean i dont like either shills but cant deny kuro gives their shills so much ammo it must feel good. Genshins sending their shills with a water gun is always fun to watch.
None of those guys said what GOOD endgame looks like. Calling out PGR for endgame is a weak statement because PGR has lot of different endgame modes and lot of them has a timer and all modes has a time limit in the end. So, if having timer is a bad thing, then in this logic PGR doesn't have a good endgame. If those guys want "GOOD" endgame, they have at first to set what are criteria's are for this "GOOD ENDGAME", check if everyone are on the same page and only after that start discussing "good/bad" endgame in game "x".
So funny how Pokke says that this chat is full of Kurobots when in reality its just people that is tired of Hoyos bullshit, him not seeing that is funny and shows how huge his brainrot is.
As someone who played games for 30 years, and who hardcore played gachas for last 6 years (i keep up with like nine gachas atm) - all gachas are sheet. 98% of gachas are made to farm ez money from duduots. Rare exceptions (which are at least trying to be "games") could be counted on one hand (and Mihoyo titles arent there). Shiling for gachas is the most duduotic thing to do. Its the same as saying "i love eating sheet! my sheet is yummy, and your sheet is more liquid than mine!". Don't be delusional if you play gachas.
You’re right. All gacha games are exploitative, but some, like Hoyoverse, take it to the extreme. People always want what they can’t have, which hits hard with gacha players. And the only way to speed it up is by spending money, which makes the monetization feel pretty crappy. Some games, like Wuwa, make it more tolerable for players, though.
You know what's funny? That they keep bringing up all these dead game's endgame. If it was so good, then why is no one playing them? Why aren't they themselves playing it? See how that works? Being a contrarian isn't always good.
ok I also think that bringing PGR compared to WuWa is disingenuous but calling PGR a dead game and implying that its not popular/profitable because its not good is wild. People who never reached PGR endgame probably think the endgame there is overhyped when its not true. PGR endgame content there is one of the best in gacha games and its very challenging, but it just takes alot of investment to get all the character you need so thats the part that sucks, but that will be the same for WuWa if they add Babel Tower in the future, so for veteran players this is a positive in both PGR and WuWa, and I'm sure that Kuro will try their best to make the transition to the new endgame not so overwhelming and more fair for everyone.
lmao dead game ? only reason pgr earns less money bcs it has 60 pity guaranteed banner for new characters its not a dead game ... don't talk about the games you didn't play note : also only reason not many ppl played pgr is bad marketing and now ppl don't wanna jump into 4 to 5 year content. bcs for casuals wuwa exist now
@@Gheniel_ exactly, and to clarify a bit: PGR endgame requires 15 built characters minimum, to be able to do then, and it turns into 15 limited characters(ss3), their sig weapons, and full build (full resonance+hypertune+harmo) to compete
@@nguyenngoi793 most of the things they did is good for f2p players. what are you on about most of the ppl who complains are light spenders. whales dont care about it. and i believe they will do good things for light spenders bcs that plan did not started yet they can adjust things until this patch ends
30:00 jenaz said they're just following genshin but later said their activities in game which is their own way is bad un short he's literally wanted WuWa to follow genshins footsteps after he said that WuWa should not foow genshins footsteps
Also, about shilling. When the question is about several games, but you find negatives only in other games and not in your favorite for the same reason - you are a freaking shill
Tectone seems to love the idea of having no male characters, although I'd agree on that, that will also alieanate a fuckton of people, look at the top gacha currently, its fucking love and deep space, if one can tap on both sex's market, they'll literally just destroy whatever Genshin had as record.
Personally ever since you meet scar and after I've enjoyed the story of wuthering waves only because I'm more invested on trying to figure out who Rover is or what.
For hsr problem is that CC and the company kind of pressure people to get eidolon and lightcone , it is not fun anymore since u cant get a day without someone telling you to get them because its make the character 2000% better 😢
42:50 absolute dogshit take from fob, in wuwa you don't need limited 5* characters to fully clear ToA and i mean it in a realistic way no crazy gear needed and no limited 5* weapon needed. Legit all you gotta do is wait until you can level up the characters to Lv90 and that's it
There is no reason you should limit a skip button for that reason alone aint nobody wanna hear no character sh and if they do then they simply just wont press the skip button... so annoying, ironic how 3 gacha games that HAVE a skip button but its unused, what does that say about hsr and genshin i wonder
Hell nah. I would go to the extreme if bro hit me with the "You didn't play through Natlan you watched someone else so you didn't experience it" I'd be like "I don't have to eat shit to know it's bad."
In TOA, I cleared the left tower with only havoc rover, the middle with camellya team, and the right with only xiangli yao, literally skill issues who can't clear them 🤣
Dude, So fucknig true about the skip button, when the story is good the player wont use it, it falls to the developers to make it good. Prime example is Gfl2, the story is the major point, heck it even acts as a visual novel, the only time you'll ever see the characters "move" is through special cutscenes, but with how good the dialogue and voice acting and even more so the plot(I mean this literally) the player won't mind to go through and read all through it. If you think this is false then look at gfl1, theres still quite a lot of people plays it cuz of how good the story is, fast forward to 2 and its even more so.
All the bots saying this was a 1v9 don’t understand that the kurobot’s takes were so bad that it turned everyone, including a Wuwa player who doesn’t play Hoyo games, against him.
Pokke kind of really cements that he's a hardcore HSR/hoyo shill. But I think at this point in his career, he should just to get that early bag. Collect as much as you can, but hopefully he doesn't let it define him like a lot of other failed CC's
Maybe the only reason that compel me to back to genshin is my friends with whom I used to play together. Cause so far, I haven't found any friend to play with in wuwa :(
Hoyoverse = ZZZ, Genshin, HSR, HI3 Kurogames = Wuwa This discussion = Wuwa, Genshin, HSR I don't understand why content creators do this... they say Hoyoverse means ALL Hoyogames but mostly speak on HSR and Genshin. So, like usual, ZZZ gets a mention but gets kicked out of the room, then they say Wuwa is the most bullied game? Did everyone forget the shitstorm of hate ZZZ got from almost everyone when it released? I mean, I play Wuwa, and I get that it gets shit from random shills, but the ZZZ slander was FROM EVERYONE; Genshin players, Wuwa players, and content creators shitted on the game heavily at launch, and then all of a sudden, months later, the game they called trash and said they were "uninstalling and never coming back" is now good or fun? Tons of people memed the hell out of it and even uninstalled it due to that influence (me included) until we gave the game a blind chance, and now we like it. No one calling that out as being an underdog and going through bullying? I play both Wuwa and ZZZ, so maybe I'm biased here, but objectively, ZZZ was and still is the most bullied game in the TOP gacha games, especially because it's new and trying to stand on stage with Wuwa, Genshin, and HSR (Sensor tower don't mean shit btw).
Preach brother. As a Day 1 ZZZ player the amount of hate and allegations the game and playerbase got surpasses the hate Genshin got in 5 years total and they call WuWa the most bullied. I play WuWa, ZZZ and sometimes HSR but my God first 2 patches of ZZZ was tough for anyone involved in the community.
yea lol i'm only casual with zzz never do the endgame, when they were in the endgame argument i was interest hear how was it in comparison. Barely any mention 💀
Wuwa get shitted so hard on release and still is rn, especially when theres dedicated Yt channel, Twitter account and entire subreddit slandering Wuwa. ZZZ doesn't have that. Btw, saint doesn't ignore zzz 54:14
@Kramer8 nah I think both zzz and wuwa gets shitted on. But zzz got more on release and now its slowing down while wuwa keeps having a little hate everyday.
Saintantos has the right idea but he just can't seem to word his arguments well enough or the people who listen to his arguments seem to miss out on a few key words he says which can easily change the meaning of his argument. He should also stop using hyperboles because it's not helping him in any shape or form.
Honestly a good podcast and Tectone played his job as a host/mod well.
Nah, Tectone fully support everyone against Saintontas. It was 1v4.
His chat was so bad, I don't know why nobody is mentioning it
@@GigachadGggsskj We're used to it
@@darktenki5893I felt it was the opposite. I was confused about some stuff Techone said Pokke did when it didn't happen. The issue really is Pokke was quite neutral while Saintontas was just straight up Kurobot and a Hoyo hater.
@@Cromonas It was 1v4 and people know it. Everyone else felt that it was 1v4.
“Dawei’s gonna cry for real this time”😭💀
Perhaps, but it might be Tectone and MrPokke crying, if trends continue and they suffer the fate of r/gachaming the favorite site of BOTH Tectone and MrPokke.
@ who asked?
Best line in the whole podcast
can you pls tell me when did he say that? its so funny i wanna rewatch it
@@Arrac99 1:26:50
Lord Baldemort in control mode....Saint is one man army
just another day as a top lane main
...
face reveal when?
GG bro 😂
Bro is gojo but actually won 🗿
my king
Someone tell em skip button is clickable. If others dont like the story let others skip, if u hate skipping then dont. These idiots who defend hsr and genshin having no skip button are literally mentally illed.
lmao true
Interesting enough I'd probably be most interested in the story if I could skip everything except the major cutscenes. Forcing me to listen to people talk and forcing dialogue options on me that don't impact the story at all, completely ruins any intrigue I would have with the story.
They would say wuwa story bad so it has skip button. Sometime ppl want to rush thing off. Or goes back later on.
@@JustLion890 and yet look what happened in 1.3. Even having a skip button it trended and got praised across social media platforms
@@JustLion890 yea right.. wtcher3 also has bad story according to them then ... bcs it had skip button
as a hsr shill and wuwa bot i must say saint did pretty well , him saying that tower is a good endgame is something i disagree with but saying thats its "comparatively better" is true even though its a shill take .
the part i most agree with saint is that kuro is an underdog and deserves a little bit praise , which is why whenever someone d-rides kuro it doesnt always seems bad as long as they highlight the negatives too . The amount of hate wuwa gets on twitter and reddit is atleast 50% more than hsr
I have hope in Kuro making endgame better with time. Hopefully success of PoE2 will bully industry into being better with endgames (and well everything else)
@@tabkg5802 even if they bring game modes from pgr its gonna be good but its needs time characters not enough for those endgame modes yet.
Genshin made spiral abyss bad through hp bloat and immunity frames, and once ToA was released ppl assume it's bad cuz it's bad in the first place. In general it's a better version but in the end it's just from worse to slightly worse, and it's hard to make things good once they're bad to that point.
@@tabkg5802 spoiler:
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according to leaks: 2.0 will have new permanent engame similar to Phantom Pain Cage of PGR. So we just have to be patient.
Also, apparently Pincer Maneuver Warriors event is permanent too, just like the Ilussive Realm it has seasons that changes things each half patch and its going to keep improving as devs receive feedback on how to handle these new endgames in a way that satisfies the players.
WuWa gets more hate because it's frontman, Saintontas actually took down the Gacha Revenue site by himself. He is also the reason people don't trust r/gachagaming and Prywden anymore
Saintontas is really a league player, diving solo on the entire enemy team
I noticed the Pokke likes to twist the questions a lot, like he's purposefully trying to dodge the questions in favor of him not looking like a bad person, but he looks so bad doing it, as well as twisting the other people's words.
That might just be me assuming things (whether he's doing it on purpose or not..) but the point is, he looks so guilty doing it that it's not even funny
Fr like in 1:01:59.
Tectone: "Do HSR need a skip button?"
Pokke: "Would I be a shill?"
Like men is not that hard to answer. It's a yes or no question. He is so scared of what people will think of him, that his first response was to ask about optics. I start to feel more and more like he's just opportunist.
He’s so afraid to say anything man is the real life skit of that one RDC interview.
Yeah he desperately trying to reduce the damage first before admitly HSR NEED SKIP BUTTON
Don't forget about that awkward silent "sorry what?" at 1:28:05
Difference is Pokke is PAID to do such things, Tectone AFAIK is blacklisted but act in a similar manner for no reason.
SAINTONTAS STOOD HIS GROUND AGAINST SHILLS
HAIL SAINTONTAS HAIL KURO
@@ggease6030 you get 69 likes.. nice
Rank 1 hoyoshill with his 2 allies vs Rank 1 kurobot. It's literally sukuna vs gojo all over again
oh no (getting go/jo flashbacks)
Ahahahha😂
@@an1sXD nice pfp
Remember that Teccy LOVES HSR, just like Pokke. It's just that Tectone can speak, Pokke has trouble doing so.
@@darktenki5893because he life in the internet, saying something bad about the content he make to get money will backfire the channel/reputation. Different situation with tectone. And especially in marketing industrial you can not blatantly speak bad (even tho its critism lmao depend on the company) unless you don't want the sponsor
PGR endgame needs a lot of characters which wuwa currently doesn't have, so how can they implement that right now and we see people clearing toa all three towers with danjin solo, so him saying attributes in tower makes you pull for characters is a shitty take. You just kinda want skills and good rolls on echoes.
I was so triggered when they say that, you literally only need 3 dps to clear the endgame, I swear this people don’t even play the game.
Bruh facts even phantom pain cage one of their first end game modes straight up requires about 15 or so characters just to beat
Also don’t forget it’s much easier to build characters in pgr cuz all you need is their 5 star weapon bare minimum and you can get their memory set from any event if u farm hard enough
@@amari7782 ????????? You can solo the bosses in Pain Cage. You literally only need 3 characters or 6 at best if you are bad.
Another Wuwa shill. Like Fob and Jan said, u forgot majority of playerbase are casuals who cant clear With 5 star chars, let alone Danjin. Bcs there are ATTRIBUTE DMG BONUS + Addition Dmg Bonus that directly benefit current Limited char, there is a incentive to get rated up Limited Char so that they can clear TOA with a few more stars TO CERTAIN DEGREE.
this was a bit gross, actual shills all ganging up on another shill and couldnt stop calling him a shill it was so damn cringe to watch
whats hard? Its shill on shill. And fyi if this was gross you could always click off and watch some enviosity. hope that helps.
I think Pokke and Saint is the obvious shill, but the treatment of other 2 CC give Saint and Pokke is massively different.
They want a 6 months old game to have 4-5 years old endgame. Are they crazy?
You're defending a gatcha company. Are you crazy?
@@jamess359 How is he defending gacha company. Are you crazy? 😂
@@jamess359mental illness has a limit
But you are the limit breaker
like they already said, we need a prduct to be good NOW, wuwa devs had years to impliment the good parts of genshin and even their own games yet they didnt,
@@Indian_gae_boii so what good parts wuwa need to implement tho
"Supposed hp inflation" why bro saying it like its just a theory theres proof!! And he himself said 400k doesnt feel like 400k anymore in his Moc clear (i think)
HP Inflation so bad that it literally bars people from joining HSR. Rich get richer and whatnot.
Legit so true, I enjoyed this podcast a lot, it was very enjoyable to just hear people talking and debating. Some things got heated, but that's the point of a debate at the end of the day
But good god, hearing Tectone START with "supposed hp inflation" was insane lmao. 5 million hp boss in the newest AS was just too ridiculous
Basically if you are a fan of something you are a shill. Noted.
Everyone have his own definition, rules and exception it seems in that podcast.
Saintonas was the goat.
This was very hard to watch, tbh. People pretend to be nice and neutral but then they lash out at each other as soon as they smell blood. Really dissapointed in some people. I am glad that Tectone actually stepped in when things got too heated. great moderation skills.
Are you 12? This shit was as mild as white guy's spice tolerance. Pathetic display from both sides.
Yeah, this video is just gacha tribalism at its finest. There is nothing constructive at all.
This video would have been so much better if they get people who actually play these games and they can criticize their own main game. Someone like Ryuuku Sensei, Sweetily, Doro, Braxophone and Gacha Smack would have done a much better job than whatever this is.
"Lash out" lmao. Did a 12 year-old write this? This 'drama' was as mild as white guy's spice tolerance. Pathetic display from both sides.
@@forthewin2766 Agree, Pokke and Saint are unbearable to watch cuz they both can't acknowledge their game's flaws. You can also tell Fob and Jena hate Saint cuz of his annoying WuWa glazing videos.
Ryuuku Sensei would have done a better job in Saint's place. Cuz unlike Saint, he has actually played both Genshin Natlan and HSR Penancony. He has also criticized WuWa many times like the repetitive harem story.
I don't agree with Gacha Smack with many things but that guy can criticize HSR unlike Pokke.
Nobody in this video has really played Natlan but they keep shitting on Genshin which I know is a cool thing to do in Tectone's channel. Fob hasn't really explored Natlan and that guy is completely out of touch with the non-whale playerbase. Pokke only does the Natlan story quests. Someone like Doro and Brax should have represent Genshin here.
@@tecccyboi6505 ryuuku's opinions are not accurate to majority of wuwa players thoughts. He doesnt fit.
Alluding to Jenazad's point: Judging the endgame mode while ignoring the in-game mechanical differences between games doesn't really make sense and is a short-sighted way of thinking. I feel like saying that TOA in Wuwa is the same as Genshin's Abyss or the equivalent modes in HSR and ZZZ (don't know about HI3) just because it has a timer is an argument that ignores any nuances. The skill expression is way different in those games. In Wuwa, you can compensate for the lack of good Echos and characters with how you play to the extent that Hoyo games can't. The difference between someone who plays at a high level and someone who’s decent at the game is astronomical. For example, there’s a CC called Maygi who cleared TOA 30/30 using Encore S0 with a 1-star level 1 weapon or JulleeusToo who complete it with Chixia solo. This level of skill ceiling doesn’t exist in Hoyo games making them more of a gear check. Even in ZZZ, which is the most skill-based Hoyo game, the skill expression is not as high. And HSR is pretty much just a relics and characters check.
Also, I think that TOA is more of a rotation check than a DPS check, while Hologram is a dodge check and learning boss mechanics, and Illusive realm is roguelike so it's character build check. They focus on different aspects of the game.
Additionally, you can swap weapons and echos between characters in TOA. And compared to Genshin there is only 1 stage/chambers per floor so if you want to play a different comp in stage 3 you need to do the previous stages again times 2 because you play 2 teams at once. And there are many mechanics in Genshin that force you to play different characters like gimmick bosses with shields that you need to use concrete elemental type on them etc.. Because you do 1 stage at a time this is less of a problem in TOA even with bosses that have element resistances.
Yea that felt odd to me like we see people clearing toa all three towers with danjin solo, so him saying attributes in tower makes you pull character is a shitty take. You just kinda want skills and good rolls on echoes.
I really resonate with this take. As someone who recently started Genshin (about a year ago) and has played Wuwa since launch. I was able to to only 36-star the abyss just this cycle. While was able to fully clear the tower after getting two DPSs (XLY and Jiyan). I like the think I have a handle of the mechanics, but it feels like sometimes part of the reason for not clearing is RNG of enemies and needing to do bigger numbers. I'm already at the point where I know the optimal rotations of a team, but still don't hit the numbers despite what should be a decent build. And since there is nothing else to optimize in terms of rotation since most already know the one perfect rotation, the only other form of damage increase is artifacts.
Now with Wuwa, at first I was struggling the same way after being able to level my DPSs to level 90. The problem was that I did things like in Genshin, doing the usual rotation of support skill burst, subdps skill burst, main dps field time repeat. However despite this I was always short of 3 stars, but could at least actually beat the boss. Then I decided to look up how others on UA-cam cleared with my team. And weirdly enough, these videos had worst echo builds but cleared with 30 seconds to spare. And the rotation itself was much more complicated, and that's when I realized there is so much more that can be done to optimize your damage. Like even with the same trio of characters, there are completely unique rotations and cancels with good clears. Not only that, but even supports in this game require more nuance depending on the character they are played with. It's isn't like skill, burst for support then leave, they need to be integrated in the rotation even after their gimmick is unleashed since even their actions effect everyone's energy. I think the reason characters like Sanhua and Verina are valued so much is because people are so used to the Genshin style of skill, burst then leave. But more complex rotations find a way to optimize a character's use even if they aren't as instant. And this isn't even considering the fact that TOA allows Echo and Weapon sharing, so making resource saving easier compared to Genshin. And I honestly think the vigor system of TOA better. People initially said you need 3 teams, but you only need two just like Genshin, but it just gets easier the more characters you have since you aren't force to commit to a team. The only floors that need an invested team are the final floor or the left and right, and the middle tower. The others, I soloed with Rover who is a good DPS which is free. But they can honestly be cleared by any decent dps, such as the standard 5 star DPSs. Even better if the lower floor DPS can share the Echoes of the main DPS of harder floors. I dont see how the vigor system is bad in anyway compared to the Abyss.
TLDR: I think Genshin's Abyss doesn't not have as much room for skill expression to improve time clears, often instead requiring just optimizing artifacts instead to improve times. Cuz once you understand what a character's kit does and know their optimal rotation order, there's not much to improve but get better artifacts (or maybe get a better supporting character for the DPS). While Wuwa's TOA goes beyond that since skill expression allows much more room for optimization beyond better equipment, echoes, but also the rotation of characters. And I honestly see TOA as a skill check to consistently weave rotations (while also adapting to the enemy via dodges) in a decent time.
Couldn't agree more the current tower the Mephis, was a so hard to get 3/3 for me even tho I have alright echoes and then I decide to watch a rotation.. guess what, I cleared it with 20s to 3 mins! There is definitely more skill envolved that just stats in wuwa I don't know about the other games since I haven't played them but I agree with that point.
You expressed what I think about this really well into words. That jenazad guy is so insufferable, no idea why people in the comments seem to like him. Guy is seriously dumb
I feel like you can say the same thing about ZZZ with players clearing all endgame with solo Billy and reaching 100+ levels in the endless tower with decently built characters.
Maybe it's because I put in more time in ZZZ but the enemies in WuWa TOA feel more like hp sponges than Zenless.
Saintontas vs all
the weak attack in groups
He's such a meme he really does believe what he's saying 😂 I love it
@@thewhutnow5795 most of the time hes right, he just has to stop with hyperbolic stataments. Thats all.
@@thewhutnow5795nah he's taking the dub here.
Because until now that was a proven, tried and true tactic.
Only now has it failed to defeat the enemies of HSR and Hoyoverse.
@@Gheniel_ i mean is he though? like another comment said, he ignores tthe bad parts of wuwa completely but is quick to point out other games, he completley ignored the part about wuwa having a timer in TOA which is absolute dogshi
If "Kill Bill" is a movie then the title of this Gachachast should be "Kill Saintontans". The sheer amount of animosity he faced could be felt through the screen.
Counterpoint, I came back to Genshin when Natlan came out without looking into character kits, pulled Mulani PURELY OFF HER TRIAL NOT KNOWING IT DIDNT WORK OUTSIDE OF NATLAN, but the exploration is the entire reason I wanted her, they didn't make it obvious enough and I don't think its fair for them to expect you to look into every detail about a character, honestly feels like I got scammed tbh
It's literally written in their kit , gacha players really can't read huh .
@@ahmedmubarak751 still locking outside of the region is shameless ting to do .... duh
@Luendrax many people think of it as if their character is suddenly useless outside of natlan where in reality they just gain a bonus inside of natlan .
Like chasca is quite literally faster and flies for longer than wanderer outside of natlan but people has to be hyperbolic because it's cool to shit on genshin so they ride the bandwagon .
I'm pretty sure most of the people that critisize the game doesn't even play it and are saying what they are saying because their content creator said so.
@@ahmedmubarak751 im done with genshin after fontaine so im not gonna say something about natlan exploration.
but im gonna say it again locking characters full potential outside of the region is shameless thing to do ...
@@ahmedmubarak751yes but the issue is that said characters gain very noticeable buffs in Natlan compared to outside of it.
Most people just PREFER not having this problem at all. It’d be one thing if there was a gadget ( you know the tools meant for qols( that allowed them to still benefit from these buffs outside of natlan, that way no one could complain but everyone’s issue is they can’t fully utilize these mechanics for no actual reason because it’s not like anything will effect hoyo in the long run so it’s just a pointless restriction for more money
Saintontas is very articulate and well spoken
You didn't watch where he talked about Natlan when he didn't actually play it. Very articulate huh?
@@wits_end. What are you even talking about lmao what, stop making shit up.
@unloyal4847 go to the "about natlan" timestamp
Making shit up? Seems like you aren't very articulate either lol
Fob defending Natlan exploration when he didn't even tried to explore without premium characters is pretty out of touch ngl. Having characters that have similar mechanics like Natlan "Pokemon" is already a big advantage over F2P experience because you can use them anywhere without the need to look and transform for specific "Pokemon". Characters are also much faster, like Xilonen climbing speed is so fast compared to "Pokemon" speed or Mualani being fast on both land and water when "Pokemon" is very slow on land.
Even without the newest characters it's still bad to explore without characters like Scaramuche or Yelan etc. So it is true that Genshin's exploration experience is just much worse without characters.
I explore natlan with alhaitham and saurians , its fine
man i dont have any natlan character and its honestly a blast to explore natlan and i dont have any major issues, the saurians work just fine
@@Kaien-qf6cr For a lot of people it's not fine because they have higher standards. It's a "boiling frog" apologue, you are being cooked my dude.
@@janusz8839 maybe because they have many many explore char, i only have alhaitham and kazuha, i run normally, i climb, swim normally
Its fine for me,
Absolutely agree. Natlan exploration is the most shameless implementation of exploration powercreep I've ever seen. Like in wuwa they're adding stuff like that shooting gadget to help with puzzles instead of us having to switch characters. But genshin? Nah gotta pay for better exploration on top of already having the inferior exploration compared to wuwa
This cone faced guy just clutched 1 v 4
1v4 is absolutely insane💀
I respect Saintontas for this one
I play Genshin,HSR and Wuwa
same just picked up girls frontline 2
how do you even find the time for that
@@ThomasAndy-qu8dpeasy,just play whenever u want to without worrying much about the meta
@@darling.............. i thought im the only one playing with freedom of choices and not for being a metaslave👍😂
So in essence Pokke is saying tontas glazes too much because there isn't enough negative. I mean, if there's less negative, there's less negative lol
He also made videos criticizing Wuwa. Like the one when he criticized Jue boss fight or where he was listing things that Wuwa could learn from ZZZ.
It’s pretty simple right? Considering game’s out for 6 months lol. Wuwa was already criticized right from the start but Pokke wants more negative specifically from Saintonas. You can’t expect more problems when the devs are actively making things better. It’s like forcing issues that have already been addressed. It doesn’t work like that.
Here’s the thing we could look forward to more negatives in the future how about that lol
Bro, I was surprised Pokke was kinda db when he didnt realise this and kept using this to frame Saint as a shill. It is just simple that if the game has less negatives, it mean the pros outweighs the cons. Highlighting the truth (Pros >>> cons) doesnt mean ur a shill. It means Wuwa is in a pretty good track.
I think it's more how Saint basically talks and makes content as if Wuwa is the second coming of Christ and ruins all other gacha games because every part of it is better than others.
@@Cromonas Well, that's your words not his.
so saint vs 3 people lmao?
More or less, yes.
In minute 34 they arguing about an already ongoing product vs new product. Lets say Apple making a brand new product(like idk monitor) compared with a smartphone.. its doesn't make sense, right?
Before someone saying "it's the same, both are a games." So what.. Handphone and Monitor are electronic, right?
Maybe they need to experimenting here and there from consumer experience feedback to make the best product, right?
@@jajanchannel2279 yeah thats exactly what kuro does, they think before implementing things that can overwhelm players like a heavy endgame like PGR's, we need to expand character roster and variety first.
That's the dumbest comment I've read in the comments section (so far)
Some brainlet really said Saintontas is stupid when he's the only one who's speaking properly. Hoyoshills, please stop being illiterate.
4 years of braindead ...it will take lot of time
If you are under influence of 4-year Hoyo-substance abuse, you cannot expect these guys to make a barely intelligent comment.
man pokke just attack to the chat from the start just bcs he know ppl not gonna agree with him ....
Yea both pokke and saint were so biased for their games, chat was having fun making fun of both
jenazads pgr takes was sht btw none of the gachas had that many endgame modes from start even pgr but he wants everyting on pgr in wuwa even tho characters wont be enough for that yet
I like Wuwa gameplay the most.
I like ZZZ-s animation and cut scenes the most.
Hsr start was amazing and I liked it more at the time then when I played Genshins.
Genshin had the elemental system that was intresting for me at that time but now I dont really care about it anymore If I have to say positives tho...Kazuha is cool.And there were iconic moments in it for sure.
But I be real.My fav is Wuwa cause of the gameplay I enjoy it alot.Theres something about the game that makes me want to return to it and even when I was in the hospital or at home laying in bed sick or in pain I kept thinking about wanting to play Wuwa cause Camellya was coming out.
if only the story was as good as the gameplay but too bad the dumb Chinese made kuro change it to a ridiculous harem with a mary sue protagonist
@@darling.............. honestly im mixed about wuwas story theres some parts i like and other parts i dont care about.like idk how many waifus we will have after camellya and shorekeeper but I get ya for disliking it :D
Saint made a good point about TOA being not as predatory as other gacha (I'm not sure about genshin but hsr definitely fall into this category). Middle tower is the hardest tower generally. You can clear side tower quite easily with well built standard 5 star characters. Given that they only modify one side of tower to shill new characters, that's like having only moc 10 stage being the shill stage instead of moc 12. Having one side tower being shill tower doesn't create as much pressure on the player to pull to clear end game contents as hsr
edit: typo
I even use Jiyan on those 30% boost on "any elements" except Aero, and I can finish it in time.
Yeah it's like MOC 12 having a general buff for all characters and MOC 10 having a good buff for the limited characters which is fair and doable.
HSR's MOC,PF,AS feels so predatory compared to wuwa's ToA.
Not to mention. that its doable. in genshin my characters dont have the good artifacts even after grinding everyday. in Wuwa, bearable-good artifacts is enough. not to mention, ToA doesnt have the character gated issue. you can just make 1-2 main dps team and focus on the hardest stage. *Just use your weakest team to clear the lower stages for all 3 crystals, and use your strongest for the higher stages*
i solo tower with danjin so yes , it not became predatory yet .
@@pchan6818 for me it's the opposite, I started playing genshin when arlecchino released and only do dailies till now. But I can almost fully clear abyss with dogshit artifact, cause I never farm them. Everyday I farm echoes in wuwa, still cannot clear ToA lol. I'm always off by 5-10 second from 3 star the middle tower. The fact that I lost all of my 50/50 in wuwa and didn't get Jinshi or any sign weapon doesn't help either. The 4 star weapons are dogshit and it just like my characters don't do enough damage. Somehow in my case, I feel like wuwa is more predatory than genshin lmao
using my comment in Saintontas video:
I understand most of Saintontas points in the gachacast means that Kuro is making WuWa less gacha and more game, with less predatory tactics and more skill compared to most gacha games.
But IMO he left a lot of openings for people to counter argument like when he says "best in all gacha gaming" or "worst in all gacha gaming" which are extremely polarizing and absolutist, also when he says "my company/game" and "your company/game" it makes them view him as a shill for certain company/game, he needs to give more nuanced takes so people wont have as much of openings to counter argument.
For example by using "the game I enjoy better" or "this wuwa feature/system is one of the best in gacha" or "this system in wuwa is better than in MOST gacha games" NOT ALL, MOST
I also understand that Saint doesn't think WuWa is perfect, and makes some critique videos but I think he could do some work on his wording
Some people in the chat and also guys in the gacha cast were really annoying about the ToA using PGR endgame as example, yet most of them never played PGR once. The argument of PGR endgame is kinda disingenuous becase PGR also didnt have that much to offer in its first year, as it also had to build up bigger roster and player feedback for the endgame content to reach the point where it is today.
IMHO I think ToA is fine, its supposed to be that basic endgame that casuals try to clear biweekly by investing in their teams and getting better at the game, its like Saintontas said "its the vanilla endgame" of the game. And people complain about the time limit but thats a thing in like... All gacha games including some PGR endgames (you need to clear in time to get better rewards) and WuWa is no different, the time limit is not only DPS check, it also presses the player to make rotations right, because if they F up the rotation they lose. If they removed the time limit there would be no incentive to grind the game and way less daily player retention, so they have ToA balancing DPS check and a little of skill check with the bosses and its mechanics (which are challenging for casuals).
The ToA is just standard endgame but in wuwa it is more optimized compared to GI Abyss, because it lets you use your energy in strategic ways and also lets you share/switch your 5* weapons on your characters. So its more f2p friendly, less predatory and with the game combat mechanics it lets you compensate lack of character investment with your skillsplay to get max rewards.
If Kuro made ToA too difficult and sweaty this would be a problem for casuals who just want their astrites, but for sweaty players we have Hologram, Illusive Realm with negative memes, and soon we will have more (in 2.0, TRUST)
Some endgame also needs a way bigger roster and we don't have that much character variety in the wuwa yet, so endgames like Babel will take some time to come to WuWa (probably 1 year or so)
People expect too many things from a 6 months game that had a VERY rough start, they are recovering from that and going the right way but people are still throwing jabs at them. We just need to send feedback and be patient, the endgame its not that big of a problem as people make it out to be, I know that WUWA IS NOT PERFECT, but yall inflate its problems wayy too much, just wait for a month and you will have alot of permanent content AND new endgame.
I dont think there is any winner in this debate, but I agree that Saint can improve the way he words and communicates his ideas, sometimes he is too hyperbolic to convey his ideas, in an imprecise manner or in a way that generates more disagreement than agreement. I also agree that the others have room to improve their argumentation points, because some of their argumentations are also imprecise, just like the point of using PGR endgame as example for WuWa, I know there is some model to be used from PGR to WuWa, but the transition and implementation of that needs to be well thought first to be done correctly without generating bigger problems later, it needs to be done in a way that will not overwhelm majority of players.
Holy essay
@@KyHeartWill ayy dont judge me, nuanced discussions takes alot of effort 😂
I see you everywhere, you're a nice dude, hope you have a nice day bro.
I find it weird when people complain about time-gated endgame content, then use PGR as an example. Literally, every other endgame mode in PGR is time-gated. As you said, this is the incentive for players to interact with the game, even minimally, to clear it. The key difference with PGR’s endgame is that you’re competing with other players for better rewards and scores.
Right now, TOA in WUWA is way more F2P-friendly compared to PGR’s endgame content. Sure, you can get every character in PGR as an F2P player, but that doesn’t include the weapon, the cub, or the additional copy needed for SS rank-all of which are essential, with a few exceptions. This often pushes meta-focused players to spend money to keep up, because not having the latest character properly built creates massive score gaps between those who have them and those who don’t.
Regarding the difficulty of ToA versus PGR: seriously? Anyone who actively plays and keeps up with PGR knows you can just "oonga boonga" through every boss since Gen 2 characters were introduced. The only time PGR feels hard nowadays is if you lack the minimum investment needed to clear the content.
@@datwasty64 I mean if you're using 2nd and 3dx gen character yeah it makes more easy. I also agree with things like PGR having problems getting the weapon and cub compared to WuWa ToA f2p friendliness.
Man, really eloquently worded comment, I agree with pretty much everything that you've said. I think saint could have definitely presented not only his words better, but also made better arguments since some of them fell apart as he lacked some more knowledge about other games like PGR and the competition, Genshin.
Also Solo Leveling enjoyer, based.
Even subjective opinions can be logically evaluated. People like to hide behind a shield of subjectivity when it’s convenient for them, especially when they’re unable to defend their stance. This is what Asmon was talking about recently-people lack the ability to think critically. People often say things like 'But I like it.' However, asking yourself, 'Why do I like it?' can be much harder. If you don’t challenge your opinions, you’re just being controlled by your biases. Everyone is biased, and if you deny that you're particularly biased, but it’s important not to act solely on those biases without evaluating your stance. So I don't really like how Jenazad and Pokke make a blanket statement like something is "fun" or "unfun" for players without proper reasoning.
I hope Tectone as a moderator will challenge blanket statements made by people who are part of the GachaCast more in the future. Like he kinda did with Pokke about the skip button argument. Because there is no benefit for a player in not having a skip button. Even visual novels have one...
Visual novels have skip button because most visual novels have multiple endings to grind for, its not really the same in the context
@@kiuhh1118 Some VN are linear stories and have skip button. GTA: San Andreas is also a linear game. So logic that something doesn't work
@@kiuhh1118 If all visual novels had multiple endings I would agree with you but most visual novels with linear stories still have skip button.
@@queru2284 wtcher3 has skip button bro... bcs they know players can play that game for different reasons or they are not in the mood for story and they just wanna kill things
@@kiuhh1118 bro is really defending no skip button...💀
Proud Kurobot, now and forever
I love WuWa because the stories they tell are some of the rare stories that got a tear out of me because they were so beautiful, emotional, and well put together. Jinhsi, Shorekeeper, and Encore in particular.
I also just prefer the combat in general due to it being more skill based and I always feel like I can improve.
The tower I agree is a little ridiculous with the time limits, however, once you get better echos you'll do a lot better. I had dogshit echos on Jinhsi and camellya, and then I got better echos and was able to get closer to 30* than I ever have. Still much more room for improvement for my account which I love. It gives me a reason to come back. To chase that 100%.
UL78 and have every limited character. WuWa is the only gacha game that got me to C6 a character (camellya) and that says something as well. I dont spend a lot of money on these games. Camellya is just so fun and unique that I genuinely just wanted to.
Kuro shill i dont know, I just love the game and hate to see the needless hate it recieves.
It’s impossible to say anything good about a game without being called a glaze these days, who care’s man you enjoyed it and that’s all that matters.
wuwa story enjoyer, nice to see.
@Taz-111 yea! :D
@@Gheniel_ yessirrrrrr!!
Man im still waiting for the day they release my beloved Danjin and Calculator from story jail.
I mean ima be real, acting as if the hoyo games have any less issue in regards to endgame and acting as if wuwa has all these issues is a bit disingenuous. I auto HSR’s endgame every 2 weeks. That shit ain’t endgame. In perspective, wuwa’s tower DOES feel like an actual endgame. Players SHOULD learn to master rotations better. I mean as a person who doesn’t main gacha games (I main fps games), I appreciate having a game mode where I have to lock in a little. Cuz zzz and HSR kinda just get auto’d every time.
Also, the cons jenazard said flat out exist in the other games 💀 so I don’t see how those r cons for wuwa when the others also have them. If everyone has them, that’s not a con.
Idk, I have more issues with genshin and HSR than I do with wuwa lmfao. The story is actually pretty good, the combat is fun, the endgame IS difficult and can’t really be done half assed unless u whale, and the devs listen. HSR hasn’t listened for a while now. We NEED a skip button and the dialogue is bloated to all fuck. And those same issues I have with genshin too. Let’s not keep attacking wuwa for the same shit HSR and genshin ALSO have.
That wasn't really the issue though. The issue is all gacha games endgame sucks because of their artificial difficulty . But he was arguing against that by saying oh but wuwa has this so it's alittle better than other games . Yeah sure but it doesn't change the fact that it's a shitty system that needs to be addressed.
@@ahmedmubarak751 ima be real, looking for endgame in gacha games is just a genre issue. Any game type where u can just pay for power doesn’t really have an endgame. Pretty sure that’s why gacha games weren’t created to be SIDE games. Hence the energy system. If u want actual endgame play POE, marvel rivals, valorant, league, WoW, street fighter, TnL, etc. literally any other genre other than gacha games. It’s really not that deep.
So trying to act as if it’s a con for wuwa to have it when the other games do the same is just disingenuous.
Wow autoing in ZZZ? We must play a different game then.
@@camaela18 by auto I mean the bi weekly resets are easy
@@Xailei_ nah. Look at zzz tower. Or even hologram in wuwa. The timer doesnt really matter and that is why people love those mode.
Abyss/shiyu/toa is just a shit stat check hp sponge mode objectively
Nah, If you have an executive account manager playing the game for you doing the dailies and side quests, you don't really like the game, only certain aspects maybe, but that makes you a shill, and so does only playing the game while streaming.
True!
All I know is wuthering waves at least tries to give you a tolerable experience even if it's a gacha game. I literally felt the same way when playing Guardian Tales, even if Guardian tales had a "bad" endgame design (Arena and Colosseum)
I've played Aether Gazer, Honkai Impact and Genshin and their endgame designs are so unbelievably tiring and boring to play
is HI3 endgame bad? I heard good things of HI3 endgame so I thought it was similarly good to PGR's endgame.
@@Gheniel_ it's really bad. I don't know how it is now but the last time I played was half a year ago when Hersscher of Sentience was free. It's divided by player progress (ranks) and the only way for you to proceed to another difficulty is finish the previous run, which goes for like 1-2 weeks, and not only that, is also hard to the point that you need to spend money to max your characters and inch forward in progress.
Memorial Arena is worse than Tower of Adversity or Spiral Abyss, it could not even be compared at all
@@ladyloo5341 damn, that looks awful💀
@@Gheniel_ Nah endgame sucks.
-Powercreep run rampant, characters can potentially gets powercreep 3 patches after their initial release
-Fucking 80% of the endgame bosses has no actual mechanic than having 10 digit HP count(if you consider pressing dodge or attack at the correct time a "mechanic", you should go play rhythm games at that point, there's a whole ton of mechanics waiting for you over there)
-Zero team comp diversity is allowed, one DPS hard stomps a . group of bosses and gets fucked by everything else, then they never cycle those group of bosses again to force you to pull for the new chars.
-Elysian Realm, the best endgame mode is also the most hardcore, and repetitive.
I don't know why tectone community hates hi3, but do not listen. If you like PGR endgame then you'll like hi3 endgame because they're that similar in how they work.
Only thing now is how combat is vastly different from PGar because of part 2 introducing Astral Ring mechanics@@Gheniel_
SHILL Definition: A person who praises something or someone for reasons of self-interest (personal, profit, friendship or loyalty).
the point of the ToA on wuwa is this:
- You can clear it with big enough gear and less skill in rotation
- You can clear it with weaker gear and more skill in rotation
- The tower buff can help in both of the above scenario but it is not strictly required to use for fast clear time
- You can also solo the floor with most of the roster with skill and decent gear
- The elemental resistance only matter for that exact element. It is worthless for other element.
- You realistically only need 2 dps to 30/30 the tower (the other character can be literally lv50 with next to no investment)
- The weapon and echo can be swap to other character => save even more investment on gear.
- The overdrive zone is not even resetting. its just there as a goal for gear check if u want to do it. only 9 star is required to get all the gem anyway (basically like how babel tower of PGR doesn't give jack shit other than bragging right after 100 point or whatever it called)
Overall it feel like you only need skill and gear to clear ToA rather than feel like you need to roll the newest character to clear it.
Yeah, exactly. I just wanna add that skills aren’t just about flashy dodges or parries. It’s more about understanding how the game works. like rotations, resource management, and cancels. Even with top-tier gear, if you don’t get those systems, you’ll hit a wall.
A lot of players don’t realize the difficulty often comes from how the game is structured, not just from execution. Open-world and gacha games are more about strategy and planning than raw reflexes. When things feel tough, it’s usually a gap in understanding how to adapt or optimize, not just a gear issue.
Play how you want, but if something’s off, there’s a reason. Complaints usually come from not understanding the game’s systems, especially in Wuwa where you can make up for low DPS in different ways. Mastery is all about recognizing those gaps and adjusting.
And yeah, with the swappable echoes and weapons, ToA feels super F2P friendly. It saves a ton of materials, and even F2P and low spenders can hit 30/30 doritos. It might take more effort, but it’s definitely achievable.
These guys keep flinging the word shill without knowing what it actually means; a shill is someone who promotes something they don't actually believe in for money
Everyone knows who they are... and they should be called out, and feel shame
Pokke and tectone are feeling called out with this comment🤣😂
@@leenat8267 Because BOTH are HSR shills, easy.
@@leenat8267 You mean the two HSR super-popular Yes Men and completely ignore the HP Inflation in-game?
Isn't that what tectone said?
Kurobot v.s hoyoshill lets gooooo
edit: btw this realistically was hoyoshill + friends trying to gank kurobot lol. imo saint really won this 1v9. saint had a counterpoint for everything (which is the point of debate) and the dumbasses especially the top middle was like "AHH BUT TOWER BAD HURR DURR", oompa loompa looking ass can't even debate.
Pokke and their girlfriends vs saintontas
@@iMvrtinez-PRat this point y'all gonna start worshipping this png tuber
@@YukinoCS says the with mihomo pfp
Saint entire argument for why toa isnt bad is based on false narrative though, which fob called out. "The buff is generic, therefore you can use any team", except that its the enemy has resistance to an element, you are still limited to what you can use. And yeah, ignore the other 2 towers, coz it ruins the agenda.
Of course in typical fashion of people like you, you wont notice that he got hard caught for not even playing games hes trying to criticise. "Natlan is so bad guys, have you seen Google trends(according to sams trends, 1.3 wuwa was probably the worst update of all time), or the most reliable source of all time - TWITTER". Literally tourist takes from him throughout, tectone tried so hard to defend lil bro by consistently switching topics and making limitations such as "only those gacha games are allowed in the discussion "
@@opbro751 i like bronya but fuck hoyo tbh
All i can see in this vid are F0b and Jenaz being smug the entire time to Saint, and Saint genuinely being chill.
Bro is doing 1v4 matches here keep it up
Lebron(Saint) vs GSW(Hoyoshills) 😭
Bruh imagine comparing saint to a black man
@ wtf are you on about?
@@thewhutnow5795??? What you mean by that?
@@thewhutnow5795 Is this guy trying to bring racism into the convo or something? Bruh this is kinda uncalled for.
@@Kastienburghe is …dude bein an immature clown
Pokke is an actual clown dude holy shit
neuclear
Tectone is the same, but can speak.
You're subscribed to the God complex himself saintontas so of course 😂😂😂😂
@@revivemefellas9637 I've seen so much Saintontas glazing in this comments section to the point that it felt like a fever dream. It almost seems like the glazing part itself is a running meme.
@@lewsee5562fr this guy 😭 is a shill
Poke going off about how saintontas doesnt talk about the negatives of wuwa, and then when asked about what negatives he should be talking about, he has nothing??? 😭😭😭
Hoyo vs Kuro. The winner? Path of Exile 2.
PoE is owned by Tencent, so Kuro big win here lol
@@meltdayo1708 yeahh due, i can't expect myself to stay awake for 2 days without sleeping.
(Friday working and Saturday full PoE 2) and i'm not done yet, now i already slept for 3 hour, i'll play this for decade. GOTY indeed.
nah poe2 is bad i already login back to poe1
@@meltdayo1708 Ayo stray Victory! We take those!
30:22 not gonna lie the issues bro list just sounds like anything you’d find in most other gacha but because genshin specifically has them it’s magically “ Wuwa is copying genshin” which is the sane argument most people have used since day 1.
The idea of 50/50 for example are fine because the only other option short of just eliminating the gacha all together ( which defeats the purpose of the genre) is something like a shard system and while id love to have more of that ( especially if it was something like limbus or pgr for A ranks)
I think 50/50 are somewhat better than pity systems before. THE BIGGEST ISSUE HOWEVER isn’t the 50/50 but the fact that they never update the standard pools enough to off set getting the sane batch of characters
lol 3 v 1 is very intetesting to watch and Saint almost won all of the Arguments
Its kind of headache 3 didnt understand and has Tectone to explain it
But great job saint keep it up
Tectone the HSR Shill still couldn't defeat Tontas, even with the full power of r/gachagaming's finest warriors and celebs.
@@darktenki5893 when tectone shilling hsr wth?? i think u meant chokke
There's a reason why I watched this entire video cause somewhere out there who's a kuro employee taking notes about their games flaws and boom we got it in game implemented that's what great wuwa does
True. I remembered someone on stream complaining about how there is no Echo loadout on the game. Next Patch, they announced they are working on it.
I believe your theory now. Kuro is always lurking to see what people want.
Ppl are just calling tower bad without saying how it’s bad. Having a timer doesn’t mean IT’s inherently bad. HP inflation may cause problem but in wuwa currently, if you have mid built characters and good rotation, you should be able to clear it with a minute to spare. Various buff can help you achieve that even easier. The iteration of tower ensures you have all kind of dps and support, which all end game player should have anyway, also it doesn’t have an expiration date.
True. The difference between a skilled player vs an unga bunga player in Wuwa is night and day, about 25% more or less damage.
Saintontas proved this after on his stream with an Account review. The guy had a mid level Jiyan, about 80/230 crit ratio.
He cleared the Overdrive tower 3 stars with more than a minute to spare.
"The massive flop of the 2.6 story quest...."
Game doesn't even have a skip button and I don't remember what happened. It's that bad and we're not being the honksh!t starbucks allegations with that one.
HIMTONTAS, NO. 1 KUROBOT🗣🔥
pokke + fob being long time established gacha streamer ganging up on a dude that started making vid few months ago with 22k sub and still losing is insane
Nowdays, the only time I lose sleep to a gacha is when there's an ultra lucrative event like an anniversary and I haven't pulled the unit I want. It overwhelmingly usually only happens with Nikke.
so people in star rail creating their own challenge (1-3 cycles) run and do a tournament about it so they can tell their skills and build apart is ok, but the game giving you timers and making it hard for you OFFICIALLY is bullshit type of difficulty? cant they see the irony? so to them they are left so deprived of a challenge and a way to differentiate their skill base that they started creating their own imaginary challenges but the game giving one to them is bullshit? same goes for genshin in online communities doing the abyss with one character or clearing in 20-30 seconds and comparing highest number damage just to find away to make them selves different from the other players because the game provides none of that but when a game does its shitty design and stupid difficulty spikes? man i swear to god every day the hoyoshills lose touch with logic and reality more and more, the hole has no end to them.
There is a reason why there was only 1 TOA vs that was hosted by Tectone.
Gacha streamer skills have very huge gaps in skill. Its not like HSR where Rng gives so much of a variance that skill is barely a requirement to beat thr better player.
@ exactly what i meant, an end game content relying on RNG is a balanced system but they cant handle high hp and a timer and consider bad system? Iam not claiming either systems bad nor good iam just highlighting how hypocritical it is when they completely blind themselves to the irony at hand.
Saint 1vs3 there insane . Gojo(saint) vs Sukuna(pokke) and two sumonned creeps (Fob , Jenazad) . Tectone is gege akutami himself
edited : Gege hated Gojo as a character
nah😭
Tectone (Gege): "but would you lose?"
Saint (Gojo): "Nah, I'd win"
the result is subjective to yall, to me is kinda neutral idk
Grimtontas
what does that even mean?😂
@Gheniel_ he's grimming every single opponents in the way🤣
Tontas took down the single biggest control point in Globa Gacha: r/gachagaming's Gacha Revenue.
While discussing TOA they forgot that wuwa has literally given out so many reward that it's not even that difficult to get teams for different elements , like I'm f2p and I have all the five stars except jiyan and zhezhi , I also have the Sig for jinsi , camellya , shorekeeper and not to mention the free 5 star selector . On top of that you can use 4 star characters to beat the tower if you have skills , you can close the gap between 5stsrs and 4stsrs with skills to some extent, extent to which TOA is concerned
Point 1 .. They want to sell character ( earn money for game development) but it upto you if you can clear with other character...like during Camellia release in ToA there is Havoc DMG bonus side Tower it upto you if you can't clear floor with Havoc Rover( skill issue ) for that you gonna try to get Camellia from banner to clear tower
Point 2 - wuwa need to add Hologram Reset every 2 week
Point 3- Pokke are brain dead person he can't even answer any question right 😂😂 and Middle person whatever his name he want to apply pgr( 5 year ) end game into wuwa (6 month) atleast wait for 1 year then say about it end game.....for Fobmaster is like this ( If you paid money on game then suddenly new game released that complete with your game ..no matter how much good game it is you gonna always compain )
point 1: Solo Danjin and you're done
Like literally i don't really think they want players to really pull Camellya endgame-wise since both the ToA and the Pincer event can easily be cleared with Havoc Rover and Danjin 💀
Danjin is such a goated unit, that actually putting her on a team as a DPS is more of a DPS loss than gain.
0:00
PREACH, FOB!!
WE SUCK AT MAINTAINING OUR MENTAL HEALTH 🎉👌🏽
Being a shill for smth that actually is good gives you one hell of a footing against being shills for sewer dumps.
I mean i dont like either shills but cant deny kuro gives their shills so much ammo it must feel good.
Genshins sending their shills with a water gun is always fun to watch.
I ain't gonna lie I didn't like the vibes of this one
Nobody likes getting Jumped on 1v4.
At least tect like 70% helping saint
@@kazuyadesu428 Tectone is a known HSR Shill. A shill who fail to save r/gachgaming's Gacha Revenue.
It was a discussion. Grow a pair
God Saint is so based, I haven’t ever heard of anybody here besides Teccy but I feel like he made a lot of solid points
Jenaz refused to compromise on top of making very mediocre points, just an angry hoyo shill imo
Guy is the most insufferable part of this podcast. I'd rather hear the arguments of some kids on twitter than to hear his
Imagine being a hoyo shill that's not even playing hoyo games.
None of those guys said what GOOD endgame looks like. Calling out PGR for endgame is a weak statement because PGR has lot of different endgame modes and lot of them has a timer and all modes has a time limit in the end. So, if having timer is a bad thing, then in this logic PGR doesn't have a good endgame.
If those guys want "GOOD" endgame, they have at first to set what are criteria's are for this "GOOD ENDGAME", check if everyone are on the same page and only after that start discussing "good/bad" endgame in game "x".
bro brought on jack in the box 😭🙏
So funny how Pokke says that this chat is full of Kurobots when in reality its just people that is tired of Hoyos bullshit, him not seeing that is funny and shows how huge his brainrot is.
As someone who played games for 30 years, and who hardcore played gachas for last 6 years (i keep up with like nine gachas atm) - all gachas are sheet. 98% of gachas are made to farm ez money from duduots. Rare exceptions (which are at least trying to be "games") could be counted on one hand (and Mihoyo titles arent there). Shiling for gachas is the most duduotic thing to do. Its the same as saying "i love eating sheet! my sheet is yummy, and your sheet is more liquid than mine!". Don't be delusional if you play gachas.
You’re right. All gacha games are exploitative, but some, like Hoyoverse, take it to the extreme. People always want what they can’t have, which hits hard with gacha players. And the only way to speed it up is by spending money, which makes the monetization feel pretty crappy. Some games, like Wuwa, make it more tolerable for players, though.
You know what's funny? That they keep bringing up all these dead game's endgame. If it was so good, then why is no one playing them? Why aren't they themselves playing it? See how that works? Being a contrarian isn't always good.
ok I also think that bringing PGR compared to WuWa is disingenuous but calling PGR a dead game and implying that its not popular/profitable because its not good is wild. People who never reached PGR endgame probably think the endgame there is overhyped when its not true.
PGR endgame content there is one of the best in gacha games and its very challenging, but it just takes alot of investment to get all the character you need so thats the part that sucks, but that will be the same for WuWa if they add Babel Tower in the future, so for veteran players this is a positive in both PGR and WuWa, and I'm sure that Kuro will try their best to make the transition to the new endgame not so overwhelming and more fair for everyone.
lmao dead game ? only reason pgr earns less money bcs it has 60 pity guaranteed banner for new characters its not a dead game ... don't talk about the games you didn't play
note : also only reason not many ppl played pgr is bad marketing and now ppl don't wanna jump into 4 to 5 year content.
bcs for casuals wuwa exist now
@@Gheniel_ exactly, and to clarify a bit: PGR endgame requires 15 built characters minimum, to be able to do then, and it turns into 15 limited characters(ss3), their sig weapons, and full build (full resonance+hypertune+harmo) to compete
Pgr global will be a dedgame soon, if the dev decide to not do anything about people's complains about integrated patches plan, ig.
@@nguyenngoi793 most of the things they did is good for f2p players.
what are you on about most of the ppl who complains are light spenders.
whales dont care about it.
and i believe they will do good things for light spenders bcs that plan did not started yet they can adjust things until this patch ends
The strongest hoyo shills in history vs the strongest kurobot of today
that profile picture is familiar
30:00 jenaz said they're just following genshin but later said their activities in game which is their own way is bad un short he's literally wanted WuWa to follow genshins footsteps after he said that WuWa should not foow genshins footsteps
Also, about shilling. When the question is about several games, but you find negatives only in other games and not in your favorite for the same reason - you are a freaking shill
Dawei’s gonna cry for real this time is probably the only thing worth noting in this 1+ hour podcast.
I am so excited for the stealth aspect in ananta
True Neutral: Volkin
Saintontas ate and left no crumbs
Tectone seems to love the idea of having no male characters, although I'd agree on that, that will also alieanate a fuckton of people, look at the top gacha currently, its fucking love and deep space, if one can tap on both sex's market, they'll literally just destroy whatever Genshin had as record.
Personally ever since you meet scar and after I've enjoyed the story of wuthering waves only because I'm more invested on trying to figure out who Rover is or what.
For hsr problem is that CC and the company kind of pressure people to get eidolon and lightcone , it is not fun anymore since u cant get a day without someone telling you to get them because its make the character 2000% better 😢
42:50 absolute dogshit take from fob, in wuwa you don't need limited 5* characters to fully clear ToA and i mean it in a realistic way no crazy gear needed and no limited 5* weapon needed. Legit all you gotta do is wait until you can level up the characters to Lv90 and that's it
There is no reason you should limit a skip button for that reason alone aint nobody wanna hear no character sh and if they do then they simply just wont press the skip button... so annoying, ironic how 3 gacha games that HAVE a skip button but its unused, what does that say about hsr and genshin i wonder
Waiiiit saint is Korean? Oh man
Nah he's just making fun of koreans 😂
TI Saintontas winning a 1v3 dive is insane.
Hell nah. I would go to the extreme if bro hit me with the "You didn't play through Natlan you watched someone else so you didn't experience it" I'd be like "I don't have to eat shit to know it's bad."
Tectone's positive ignorance is what keeps me coming back for more
god I'm in genuine pain reading chat during this
In TOA, I cleared the left tower with only havoc rover, the middle with camellya team, and the right with only xiangli yao, literally skill issues who can't clear them 🤣
Dude, So fucknig true about the skip button, when the story is good the player wont use it, it falls to the developers to make it good.
Prime example is Gfl2, the story is the major point, heck it even acts as a visual novel, the only time you'll ever see the characters "move" is through special cutscenes, but with how good the dialogue and voice acting and even more so the plot(I mean this literally) the player won't mind to go through and read all through it.
If you think this is false then look at gfl1, theres still quite a lot of people plays it cuz of how good the story is, fast forward to 2 and its even more so.
All the bots saying this was a 1v9 don’t understand that the kurobot’s takes were so bad that it turned everyone, including a Wuwa player who doesn’t play Hoyo games, against him.
ZZZ IS THE MOST SHIT ON GACHA GAME IDC
Pokke kind of really cements that he's a hardcore HSR/hoyo shill. But I think at this point in his career, he should just to get that early bag. Collect as much as you can, but hopefully he doesn't let it define him like a lot of other failed CC's
As someone that stopped playing Genshin after sumeru part one is it worth coming back now?
fuck no
You can get back into it to experience Fontaine , i liked the exploration and story, natlan is aight i guess.
No because WuWa exist😂
Maybe the only reason that compel me to back to genshin is my friends with whom I used to play together. Cause so far, I haven't found any friend to play with in wuwa :(
@@hxppythxughts7149popularity biased that's why
HSR might be the game witch is played by the most player that actually don't like the game in the frist place, that's crazy
*insert spiderman pointing gif*
Hoyoverse = ZZZ, Genshin, HSR, HI3
Kurogames = Wuwa
This discussion = Wuwa, Genshin, HSR
I don't understand why content creators do this... they say Hoyoverse means ALL Hoyogames but mostly speak on HSR and Genshin. So, like usual, ZZZ gets a mention but gets kicked out of the room, then they say Wuwa is the most bullied game? Did everyone forget the shitstorm of hate ZZZ got from almost everyone when it released? I mean, I play Wuwa, and I get that it gets shit from random shills, but the ZZZ slander was FROM EVERYONE; Genshin players, Wuwa players, and content creators shitted on the game heavily at launch, and then all of a sudden, months later, the game they called trash and said they were "uninstalling and never coming back" is now good or fun? Tons of people memed the hell out of it and even uninstalled it due to that influence (me included) until we gave the game a blind chance, and now we like it. No one calling that out as being an underdog and going through bullying?
I play both Wuwa and ZZZ, so maybe I'm biased here, but objectively, ZZZ was and still is the most bullied game in the TOP gacha games, especially because it's new and trying to stand on stage with Wuwa, Genshin, and HSR (Sensor tower don't mean shit btw).
Preach brother. As a Day 1 ZZZ player the amount of hate and allegations the game and playerbase got surpasses the hate Genshin got in 5 years total and they call WuWa the most bullied. I play WuWa, ZZZ and sometimes HSR but my God first 2 patches of ZZZ was tough for anyone involved in the community.
yea lol i'm only casual with zzz never do the endgame, when they were in the endgame argument i was interest hear how was it in comparison. Barely any mention 💀
I dont think anyone said wuwa is the game that get the most hate, but is one of the. ZZZ got alot of hate too.
Wuwa get shitted so hard on release and still is rn, especially when theres dedicated Yt channel, Twitter account and entire subreddit slandering Wuwa.
ZZZ doesn't have that.
Btw, saint doesn't ignore zzz
54:14
@Kramer8 nah I think both zzz and wuwa gets shitted on. But zzz got more on release and now its slowing down while wuwa keeps having a little hate everyday.
"CORE GAMEPLAY: Auto"
Best gameplay ever 💥
I really enjoy and I hope you make more of this type of content but I gotta say MrPokke speak so little that I forgot that he existed midwatching
Talk less and you wont screw up😂
Saintantos has the right idea but he just can't seem to word his arguments well enough or the people who listen to his arguments seem to miss out on a few key words he says which can easily change the meaning of his argument. He should also stop using hyperboles because it's not helping him in any shape or form.