How OP would a Dragon/Water Gyarados be in Pokemon Yellow?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 15 жов 2024
- Gyarados is one of the coolest Gen 1 Pokemon. It's also obviously a dragon. And yet, it never received the Dragon-type. But if we gave it its rightful typing in Gen 1, would it become the true Dragon King of Gen 1?
~~RBY Pokemon Challenges Community~~
Support my goal to become a full-time creator (someday!)
Patreon: patreon.com/user?u=83413986
UA-cam Channel Membership: / @rbypokemonchallenges
Buy some terribly hilarious MERCH!
rbypc.creator-...
Like & Subscribe for more runs!
Scoring system and rules below!
~~Rules~~
-Solo Challenge: No other Pokemon in battle, no items in battle, no glitches exploits (other than badge boost glitch)
*IF team faints, we can faint HM pokemon to blackout*
-No Vitamins
-0 DVs/0 IVs
-Dragon Type replaces the Flying Type
~~Connect with me~~
Email: teoinjp@gmail.com
Twitter: / rbypokemon
Facebook: / rbypokemonchallenges
Discord: / discord
~~Scoring System~~
Scoring:
-Pokemon Starts with a score of 100 points.
-Minus 0.1 points per reset (10 resets = 1 point)
-Minus 0.25 points per optional battle (4 optional battles = 1 point)
-Minus 1 point per TM (Excluding Broken TMs)
-Minus 10 points per Broken TM (Double Team, Substitute, Mimic, Rest, Bide, Toxic)
For why these TMs are Broken, watch my Level 5 No EXP Solo Challenge Series, where even Bide helped Level 5 Pokemon Solo the ENTIRE GAME!
Playlist is here: • Level 5 Challenges
Process:
Every Pokemon goes through 3 separate tests:
1. Minimum Battles
2. No TMs
3. Optimization for score on the tier-list
Standard Rules:
1. 0 DVs/ 0 IVs (Worst Possible Stats).
2. No Items in Battle.
3. No Stat Boosting Vitamins (HP Up, Carbos, Iron, Calcium, Protein).
4. No other Pokemon in battle (HM Mules allowed outside of battle).
5. Timer STARTS when I select New Game, and ENDS when the Champion is defeated.
6. Required Battles are the 65 battles that cannot be avoided without glitches (See Jrose11's original Minimum Battles video.
7. Pokedoll Glitch is a glitch and therefore banned.
8. Brock Through Walls is banned.
9. Badge Boost Glitch is allowed without restrictions.
10. Save states for routing and catching HM Pokemon only.
11. No wild encounters, except to catch HM Pokemon.
~~Every Run has Unedited Live Commentary~~
1st Attempt: • Ad Free: Live Commenta...
2nd Attempt: • Ad Free: Live Commenta...
Normal Gyarados: • Live Commentary: How G...
~~Pokemart~~
Changing Starters:
-- Software: pokehacks.dabo...
-- Guide: • How to Start With Any ...
Software I Use:
-- Live RAM access: gamehook.io/
-- Recording: obsproject.com/
-- Photo & Video Editing: www.blackmagic...
#pokemonyellow #pokémonchallenge #minimumbattles
It's immature, but I always laugh at "PP Up". I imagine it comes in a little blue pill.
Hahahahaha OMG I just can't unsee this xD
Thats so immature... I'm laughing my ass off
My 6 year old son has started playing Pokemon and whenever I say PP Up I wonder what my wife is thinking that I’m talking to my son about
This is the truest joy of the world of Pokemon
I'm 30, been playing pokemon my whole life and didn't realize this until just this moment. Fucking hilarious
Another Chinese (not sure about Japanese) legend says that bad dragons (eg. Ones that destroy villages and rage everywhere) get demoted to flying serpents. This angry water snake seems to fit the bill perfectly.
First time I heard that story. I will need to look it up!
@@RBYPokemonChallenges i think I heard it in one of those typing explained videos; I won't commit myself, but I think it happened in Journey to the West?
Bad dragons?
Oh my!
@@aprinnyonbreak1290 Basically if I remember right Dragons were ancestral protectors or something in old myths. Those that broke their promise or other wise failed their duty lost their wings and became the serpent type of dragon. I believe those that redeemed themself regain the ability to fly but forever lost their wings aka the flying serpent dragon type.
@@JustaGuy_GamingDOES HE KNOW?
Me as a kid seeing the flying typing on gdos: "what were them stupid heads thinking"
Me older when they release mega gdos and realising they turned to water/dark: "what were them stupid heads thinking"
Why was Game Freak so adverse to making Gyarados Water/Dragon like it's supposed to be?
@@SoraDonaldGoofy99 if you mean regular gyarados, then its because you get it too early to have a pokemon that OP. You can have one as early as level 20. Having a dragon at level 20 in RBY is not ok.
If you mean his mega form then........i guess because that would be too easy? I'm not really sure.
@@jetsettech8804 The run showed that it honestly didn't make much of a difference.
@@megadracosaurus within the confines of having a regular team and not just one pokemon, it makes a world of difference.
@@jetsettech8804 Kind of both, to be frank. Is Water/Dark a bad type? No. Is it what Mega Gyarados should have been? No.
The reason Gyarados isn't a dragon type is because in the same mythos it's based on, individuals who abuse their new power are stripped of their dragon status but allowed to keep their form. Since Gyarados basically wakes up and chooses violence, it makes sense he isn't dragon type. Now, I would love if gamefreak added a split evolution for Magikarp where if it has high friendship at level 20 then it chooses wisdom and care and gets to keep its dragon typing.
What
Nice, thank you for knowledge. Maybe It could became that at level 30, After refusing many times to choose violence
But in the lore that only happens after it goes violent. So we just need a pacifist DraKarp 😂.
In that case I feel like milotic should be dragon type
I've heard that before, but I can't actually find an official source for the claim about the dragon reverting back to a fish. Do you know where I might can find that?
This is much more OP in red and blue because Gyarados starts with Dragon rage, bite and hydropump.
Dragon Rage doesn't get any benefit from Dragon typing, it's a fixed damage move.
@@robopiplup5193
It's 40 damage. At the START of the game. It's op form the first two gyms and on everything under level 20.
@@ПомстаI'm not talking about that. All I said is that Dragon typing wouldn't make Dragon Rage any better. Gyarados would be just as OP with Dragon Rage no matter the typing.
@@robopiplup5193 having access to dragon rage early while not possessing a single weakness is extremely powerful
@@ErickMarcellonithe Water/Flying weaknesses don't matter, though. There aren't any rock attacks used by npcs in RBY, and there is literally 1 trainer with a strong electric move. And Gyarados has the special to take it.
"So, we have named her waifu Sabrina in the new overlay... Oh, we're getting flashed."
Perfect 😂👌
Youthful dreams come to fruition.
@@RBYPokemonChallenges lol
(Just started watching) Personally, giving it Dragon instead of flying isn’t much of a difference in Gen 1. There’s only 2 Dragon Moves, one is a set-damage move, and the other is 40 BP. It makes Grass Neutral (it already was with Flying), water/dragon makes Ice Neutral, but it was already neutral on Water/Flying. Though, the best thing going for it is that Water/Dragon makes Electric Neutral instead of 4x, giving Water/Dragon essentially no Weakness in Gen 1. **EDIT** for some reason, I thought Twister was a move in Gen1 😂
What do you mean two moves? There’s only dragon rage which is a flat 40 HP.
@@matthewnelson9160 as I said in my Edit… I thought Twister was a move in Gen 1
Yeah, Gen 1's lack of moves was terrible. If anything needs "fixed" in the Gen. it's just the lack of Dragon, Ghost, Bug, and Ice moves
@@RBYPokemonChallenges i wouldn't complain much about ice moves in gen 1, since the only 2 offensive ice moves were ice beam and blizzard, at 90 and 120 power recpectively.
Ghost and bug, on the other hand, were at the same level as dragon, the only moves of those types back then were practically useless. Even rock was seriously lacking, both rock throw and slide were horrendous, missing more than they hit, unless you use an X-accuracy.
Congrats on surpassing 6,969 subscribers!
Only about 100 away from 9k! I think we need a themed run for that
Charizard as fire dragon, Aerodactyl as Rock Dragon, and Gyarados as water dragon all would be obscenely OP, and probably why they were instead given flying as a secondary typing.
We shall see!
Back in the day, that would have been AWESOME! I also wish Tyranitar swapped second type with tyrantrum making him dragon too, and blastoise should be corrected with the steel type
Feel like dragon type wasn't a thought until they got to lance and they said wait how about dragons. And let's add a new type that the player wouldn't have encountered themselves yet. Then they never thought about making Pokemon like Gyarados and Aerodactyl dragon again. And if they did they figured the cool twist of a secret typing appearing would be ruined
For sure, but he introduces himself as a Dragon Trainer and then leads with Gyarados.
You can get a dratini before facing Lance.
The way the music syncs up with Surge's intro at 16:24 is incredible. I love it.
Glad you liked it!
So i recently played the fairly popular ROM hack of Pokemon Fire Red called Pokemon Ultraviolet. It's basically a the standard Fire Red/Leaf Green experience, except it has modifications and new post-game features that allow you get every Pokemon up through Gen 3 without needing to trade. But during my playthrough, I noticed that Electric moves weren't doing so much damage to Gyarados. Gyrados is supposed to be double weak to Electric due to its Water/Flying typing. I eventually noticed that Gyrados in this ROM hack is Water/Dragon type.
Since Gyrados doesn't learn many (any?) Flying moves, and learns several Dragon moves, this was pretty sweet, especially since the Dragon type's resistance to Electric nutralizes Water type's weakness to it, and Water type's resistance to Ice nutralizes Dragon's weakness to it. Both Flying and Dragon resist Grass, so that's unchanged. What we're left with is a Gyrados that can use STAB Dragon attacks that is only weak to Dragon type moves.
The one thing stopping Water/Dragon Gyrados from being OP is Gyrado's relative low Special Attack stat. Since Gen 3 is before the Physical/Special Split, all of its STAB moves (Water and Dragon) are Special attacks, and Gyrados only has a base 60 Special Attack. But still, teach it Surf or Hydro Pump, teach it Hyper Beam, teach it a strong physical coverage move like Earthquake, and then teach it Dragon Dance to boost its speed and physical attack, and it's a very powerful Mon indeed.
I ended up trading a Gyrados over to an Emerald Version game in order to teach it Thunder from the Department Store in that game (you only get 1 of each of those TMs in FR/LG), but when sent over, Gyrados reverts back to being Water/Flying. So trading Dragon Gyrados to other games. But it got its Dragon typing back when I traded it back to Ultraviolet version.
Overall, Water/Dragon Gyrados is pretty sweet, though it is held back by its fairly low Special Attack. If you want a decent Water/Dragon Mon, Kingdra isn't bad. It has a much higher Speical Attack of base 95, but can't learn all those Fire and Electric moves that Gyrados can. It can lean Ice type moves though as well as Dragon Breath, making it a good matchup against other Dragon type Mons and safe to use against Mons with Ice type attacks.
Has a higher special in gen 1
@@tesladrew2608 maybe, but Gen 1 has no real Dragon moves.
Yeah, I would be super interested to try it in a later Gen with actual Dragon STAB!
[Insert pointless comment]
Would be cool to see these runs with access to a dragon type damaging move
Only notable thing I'd say it loses from its Flying type going away is the ability to switch in on Ground types using EQ unharmed and threaten them with a bad time. EQ immunity is huge and is much harder to play around than an Electricity weakness.
Doesn't really matter in-game. All of the pokemon with earthquake get outsped and one-shot by Gyarados' surf.
that has nothing to do with switching in dude. that only matters if your solo running with garyados or get a lucky opening flip@@holowisewolf1688
@@holowisewolf1688The point is that Gyarados with its Flying typing can switch _into_ an Earthquake from an opposing Pokémon unharmed. While that's irrelevant for this run, it'd matter with a team of Pokémon.
Let's say you've got an Electrode out and your opponent brings out a Rhydon. While you can try to do something with Electrode against the Rhydon, you know your Electrode is done for if it gets hit by the Earthquake likely to come, so you use your turn to switch into Gyarados to avoid the Earthquake entirely and follow it up with a Surf.
So in a full-game runs in Gen 1, there is no advantage switching in because the AI chooses it's move after the switch happens. They fixed this in later Gens, so as a team Pokemon not being able to switch in safely is a much bigger deal!
I throw my hands up in the air sometimes, saying “Ayo! New vid from Teo!”
Ben Rager, you legend!
@@RBYPokemonChallengesthanks! My adhd brain came up with that almost immediately after I got the notification about the upload.
Short answer: not much, it would just be better defensively (kinda, because now it can't switch into earthquake but at least it doesn't evaporate against thunderbolt) which isn't that big of a deal, its problem is a lack of physical moves to make use of its attack aside from non stab hyper beam, and this wouldn't solve it.
This is exactly my thought as well. Competitively I think it would be more viable, since the lack of weakness would have made it usable in a lot of situations. But in a solo challenges it all comes down to the AI reaction
Hey Teo! It's your boi. Kyle B. The Oh Gosh man who originally said "Land a Clamp, become the Champ." I've been watching your stuff since August of last year and became a member on this channel a few months ago (also I'm a channel member of GSC Pokemon Challenges aka your wannabe but don't judge). I've enjoyed your content so much! I know I'm usually joking around and stuff but I genuinely really appreciate you and your content. I wanna throw up a Super Thanks real quick (picked a random video to do it) just to show appreciation. Keep it up man and I'm really hoping this channel takes off even further than it has! Sidenote. Hope your wife is doing good with pregnancy! Happy that you'll have a little Teo soon!
Thank you so much Kyle! It's so much fun to read your comments on every video. The support and appreciation is super motivating to me to keep making content because I get to feel that not only am I having fun, but you are having fun watching alongside me!
RBWife is doing well! About 3 months to go, and it's a baby boy on the way. He will definitely start with an S-Tier moveset, but he's only level 0 u til we train him up! 😂
@@RBYPokemonChallenges He's born to be a Legend my friend! So happy to hear how much you appreciate your supporters man! We're behind you!
YO NEW VIDEO LETS GO!
I have been waiting for this run 😆
Sorry for the delay! LFG!!!!
"Light Years Junior Trainer" wait a minute... I know that name from Scott's Thoughts. Also gen 1-3 "truckery". Subbed
Aw yeah, Scotty and Gym Leader Matt and I all call him Light Years Junior Trainer 😂
Drakarp was cool to explore,but in the end onter then a fast Surge and a some what easy Misty fight, it wasn't such a huge difference. But it always is funny to see the good AI losing it with dargon types. 😂😂😂
Having a stat boosting move or a fast one like sword dance makes a lot of difference between Drazard and Drakarp . And besides Gyarados's power is it's attack, I only wish that it had a flying stab. That makes me wonder what if Gyarados could fly?
I wonder if Seadra is going to be next to have the dragon type?😊
The new overlay looks really cool 😄. I really liked how within each attempt the Rival 6 became a scientist 12 and Giovanni 3 , it's probably revealing the rival's true identity. 😂😂😂
Anyways thanks for an awesome video like always.😊
Yeah, I need to fix the Rival 😂. He needs to become a youngster next time! Next up is dragon Aerodactyl. Dragon Seadra after that!
@@RBYPokemonChallenges Yup,for sure it would make me have a good laugh 🤣🤣🤣.
Dragon Aerodactyl is really cool ,having rock and dragon type is coverage for most types in terms of resistances. But not having stab for both can be interesting 🤔.
Yay, new video!
Suggestion: The overlay for EVA, ACC, essentially everything on the right side is getting a little too small to read on portrait mode on my iPhone Mini. Could you look into font resizing? It doesn’t need much, maybe a single or half size up.
I meant everything at that font size on the right. The battle metrics are absolutely fine.
"It only takes a quick glance at the type weaknesses of a water/dragon type to realize why GameFreak might have thought that this would be too strong."
But... they were making the game. lol. Obviously they could have added more weaknesses to dragon. It's more that Dragons perhaps don't have a lot of weaknesses *_because_* there basically weren't any and they had no calculated damaging moves in the game. lol.
I always wondered why Dragon was even a type at all. All the other "types" are basically elements, as well as true damage "types" like fighting and psychic. Dragon feels very misplaced.
I agree. They were in such a rush to get the game out in the end that they basically botched movesets for Dragon, Ghost, Bug, and fighting. With more time focused on balancing the types they would have improved those movesets (as they did in later Gens).
Thats Palkias typing and you know that typing is probably Palkias strongest asset.
It's a real shame they didn't give Mega Gyarados the Dragon type.
Absolutely agreed!
I forgot how good the lets go music is. Its so good
Yeah, I like to borrow from some of the other gens be cause it's much better than the Gen 1 music
@@RBYPokemonChallenges agreed
This run was really awesome. I love it.
How about a run in GSC with Lugia, how it's supposed to be: As a Water \ Flying type. Maybe in a race against a "normal" Lugia.
That sounds like. good run for the GSC Pokemon Challenges Channel
To me, OP will always mean "Original Poster"
A wild Redditor appears
How do you edit a pokemons typing? I'd like to backport Hisuian Voltob and Hisuian Electrode into RBY, but I have no idea how to do that.
I am using Gamehook, but it's as simple as a GameShark code. A true backport with new sprites is something I haven't tried yet, but Gym Leader Matt does some of those runs!
@@RBYPokemonChallenges cool! Sounds interesting, I'll check him out.
absolutely love Gyarados Magikarp was worth the wait for this Beast of a Mon🔥🔥
Yeah, it was worth the wait and the pain to train such a useless thing like a magikarp till lv20, so it could become one of the biggest beasts in the game.
As a kid I always evolved the salesman's Magikarp from the Mt. Moon Pokemon Center before getting the Dome Fossil. Misty learned what a Real Water Pokemon could do as I bit her starfish
My hot take is that if charizard and gyarados becames dragons theyd be dragon flying instead of Water or Fire
I base these typings on the fact that pre-evolution they are mono Fire and Water respectively. Dragon/Flying fits Aerodactyl much better!
Great video from Pokémon Challenges
Thank you!
I am surprised to learn that it started with Hydro Pump in RB but not in Y. What’s that about? I recall it starting with Bite but not HP
In RB, it wasn't catchable in the wild, so they gave it an absolutely ridiculous Level 5 moveset. You can see it's set when you fight the Rival in Lavender, and it already has Dragon Rage and Hydro Pump in that battle. In Yellow, they made Gyarados catchable in the wild in the pond behind the Fishing Guru's house in Fuschia City, so they nerfed the Level 5 moveset
How do you do the overlay and does it share the info for you as you're playing too or is it just for the video?
I use Gamehook.io for real-time game data and the overlay is all coded in JavaScript. I do have it all on screen as I play
People always say Gyarados shouldn't be Dragon in Gen I cuz it would be too OP. And I'm always like...yes?? The entire concept of Gyarados is that it starts as the weakest Pokemon and becomes among the strongest when it evolves. It is appropriate for Gyara to be overpowered. And sure it's based on a wind sock or whatever, but it can be based on that without having to literally be Flying Type. I kinda think the dragon aspect is like 10x more important than the wind sock part.
And the biggest refutation to the OP argument is that Dragon isn’t even OP in Gen 1. It doesn’t block Psychic or Normal attacks, and Gyara has no flying or dragon STAB, so Water/Dragon is essentially the same as Water/Flying. Sure electric attacks MIGHT be an issue, but Gyarados can usually tough those out with its 100 special anyways.
People saying that Water/Dragon’s too OP in Gen 1 don’t know what they’re talking about when all it does is give Gyara a couple more resists.
This is exactly why I wanted to investigate. I think a lot of theories come out about how OP something would be with a type change and in many cases it does not really pan out in Gen 1. I found this with the Ghost/Normal Snorlax run, when on the one hand, sure, it's great that Ghost, Normal, and Fighting are now immunities and it adds resistance to Poison and Bug, but for practical purposes, it's not any better.
I kinda feel like the type change doesn't affect much if you're using it. Facing it however would make it much more difficult to take down.
I agree. The big issue is not the typing itself, but rather how the AI reacts to it, and Gen 1 AI is so simple that it almost entirely ignores the Dragon typing and just does the same things it would against a normal Gyarados
"Don't wanna have PP problems as we go to see our rival" - RBY Pokemon Challenges 2024
Just saying, can't see the Rival with little PP
@@RBYPokemonChallenges what do u need the pp for, huh??? Impressing men???? Gay.
0:06 this is a side note, but based on that, it essentially flew over the gate. So that creates the question of "what parts of this creature are important enough to be represented by a type?" Doesn't it lose the aspect of its lore of jumping over the gate if you replace Flying with Dragon?
But then it should get STAB Fly, but it doesn't.
@@RBYPokemonChallenges Well, neither does Mantine or Jumpluff. This is pure speculation, but I think Flying type doesn't necessarily mean pokemon that fly through the air like birds, but more so can either fly, get very high in the sky or stay airborne for long periods of time.
And again, the "Flying" Gyarados (or Magikarp) does is more so a huge jump that makes it seem like it can fly. It doesnt really fly in the traditional sense the way Corviknight/Aerodactyl/Lugia do. Probably why it gets Bounce instead
Hearing him call her "Waifu Sabrina" I instinctually wanted to cringe but can't because I get it.
It's been an inside joke for a minute here. I had a crush on Sabrina when I was like 8....
I would say the biggest difference between the Gyarados and the Charizard is the level-up group. Gyarados being in the slow level-up group is horrible and puts it at lower levels for every major fight.
This is absolutely true. But it's compounded by the fact that Charizard gets Swords Dance, allowing it to sweep, and since Lorelei and Lance's Gyarados have decent chances to use neutral Water moves on DraZard, he gets a pretty big advantage
I remember that ff6 reflect thing where the spells would reflect all around off eachother got so weird sometimes haha
Yeah, Reflect Rings were OP on some opponents
@@RBYPokemonChallenges the worst is when I’d forget i have it on and pump a massive heal into the wearer and just have it reflect haha
Making comment before watching, will edit after to see if I'm right.
Probably about the same, better around 3rd gym because neutral and worse towards end game because no EQ immunity. Also don't think Gyarados learns any flying moves at all in gen 1 since the only damaging ones where Fly, Wing Attack, Drill Peck and Sky Attack, but also only dragon move is Dragon Rage so both typings get wasted on STAB.
Surprised to learn about the type priority the AI goes for, I wasn't aware of a lot of gen 1 mechanics but overall seeing it perform about the same with the difference of no weaknesses was pretty surprising. Crazy to see the difference between RB and Y Gyarados in starting moves lol
Yeah, it is always an interesting situation to see how the AI chooses to attack based on its broken mechanics.
Funny enough Flying and Dragon are almost interchangeable.
Quick question: why was your Gyarados Water/Dragon, but Lance's was Water/Flying?
"Magic!" And I changed only the typing of my Pokemon directly.
@@RBYPokemonChallenges oh ok, i was just thinking that changing Lance’s would’ve technically yielded a more accurate outcome, but I don’t think it would’ve changed a whole lot. Thanks for the video!
Scott's Thoughts uses a modified Yellow that gets rid of the Lt. Surge puzzle, you should use that ROM. Also, Gyarados is weak in Yellow because of it's terrible starting moveset, if you even started out with Tackle and Leer, that would have saved a few minutes by being able to beat Brock at level 11.
Yeah, I don't use the auto-solve for the puzzle, because I don't think it impacts the final results much.
Agreed on the moveset at the start, the RB moveset would crush, but that's for later my friend. You have not seen the last of Dr Karp
Me as a kid: Why is it a Flying Type? It wouldn't be able to fly with those dinky little wings!
Me as an adult playing Legends Arceus:..................... Truly Shocked Pikachu face.
😂
Why didn't you give it tackle + splash so you wouldn't beat the Sandshrew?
The actual moveset programmed into the game is only Tackle. Adding splash definitely would have helped
The real reason why Gyarados isn't a Dragon-type despite having all the characteristics is basically the mythology it's based on: it's not a dragon, but a leviathan.
Hence its french name, Léviator.
but a leviathan is kind of a dragon....
Why does garados have tackle shouldn't it have splash?
This is a question for Game Freak as well....
Having to grind a magikarp should've been rewarded with Water/Dragon.
They did the typing with Kingdra and gave you the middle finger the very next game anyways hahaha.
Exactly this.
Dragon-normal Dragonite!
Pure dragon Dragonite (no, not Dragonair)
I am all-in for the Normal/Dragon run, it sounds epic!
@@RBYPokemonChallengesit sounds like hilariously broken in Gen 1. Stab Body Slam with 134 base attack?! Strongest Body Slam in the game
This comment was written before watching the video.
I made five custom pokemon with evolutions for my pokemon romhack. The water type is my icon right now. He was a water/dragon type.
He wasn't that great.
Dragon prevented effective damage, but didn't help with dealing effective damage. I was decent at always doing neutral damage, but I had a balanced team so that was never a help. For my next hack, I'll replace it with a water/electric.
Water/Electric sounds awesome!
It's really good. Water is only weak to grass dragon and water, and two of those are dealt with ice beam. That leaves water, which can be dealt with electricity.
Then for electricity it's only weak to grass and earth, which water deals with.
On top of that you generally want an electric type to deal with the plentiful water types, and your electric also being water makes them that much easier to deal with.
I'll let you know how it plays out once I'm done working on my next game
Gyarados was and is always a dragon in my heart. I guess they wanted to give him the 4x weakness since Gyarados was already such a strong mon in gen 1. Of cource its not the greatest in this format but was really strong in regular gameplay.
Yeah, there is a thing about how Lances team all have 4x weaknesses, perhaps as a eat to make him really strong, and yet still easily beatable by a good player
I think Gyarados will do worse. Ground immuity makes up for electric weakness.
Nah I disagree, moveset is good enough that Giovanni shouldn't be an issue.
Let's find out!
I'm not a huge hypothetical guy, but I'm down for anything gyarados related
Face reveal. Not too shabby
Cheers! Testing all the feature of the new overlay design, which includes face cam integrated onto the system
How the course of history would have changed
Aw yeah!
I have to wonder what Venusaur would be like if he got Dragon as his secondary type instead of Poison...
Aw yeah! I'm down, he's kind of a reptile
It always bothered me that Gyarardos isn't a dragon, just would have been way too OP with those stats
I agree overall. I think it would have been balance against other top Pokemon by its lack of speed though, since it would be hit first by everything in top tier except Snorlax, which is already OP in the meta, and the Rocks, which it already beats anyway
My bet is that it'll be able to take battles at lower level with the dragon type than without, given the defensive boosts. Functionally, water/dragon has no weaknesses in gen one.
This is the main premise. Losing type weaknesses should make fights easier overall
Let's see... Pokemon yellow, which is gen 1. Dragon was just a type without any hope for STAB moves, since dragon rage was the only dragon move and it does fixed 40hp damage. Would benefit A LOT from no longer being weak to either rock or electric moves and being water-type would nullify its dragon-type weakness to ice, meaning it would have no weakness at all at the cost of losing its immunity to ground moves.
It was one of the highest ranked in terms of ATK stat back then and changing from flying to dragon would remove many of the possible options to 1 hit ko, making it a real menace, taking into account that in gen 1, it was possible to abuse hyper beam, since it had a glitch where you would only lose a turn to recharge if the opponent managed to survive the hit.
Even without STAB moves in the dragon-type department, it could be a game breaker.
All good analysis. I actually did the run twice, once with and once without Hyper Beam. That attack stat is no joke!
@@RBYPokemonChallenges sure isn't. Only a few in gen 1 were able to go above the 320 mark at lv100 in the atk stat and Gyarados ranked among the highest of those few. I had one in pokemon red with 346 atk, it was a real beast and if it could have greater speed, it would be nearly as broken as gen 1 Mewtwo.
my prediction is based on the type chart is that it will be *very* good.
Sounds reasonable to me
35:20 always thought the Rhydon sprite was better in Red/Blue than Yellow.
I wlcan understand that. The read/Blue sprite looked tough
Sure you can use drakarp, but can you defeat it?
That, it seems the entire issue comes down to the fact that it takes neutral damage fro. everything, so toy need good STAB to take it down.
I think you should have turned the other Gyarados in the game into dragon types as well.
RIP. I don't have an easy implementation of that, but it is possible without hacking.
I think it is necessarily going to be better. Gyarados doesn't learn any flying stab in gen 1 and ground types were never an issue. Realistically, the dragon typing is just giving it less weaknesses. So I expect dragon Gyarados to be better than usual.
Vs Charizard is trickier. The early game vs Charizard is probably going to be slow because Gyarados' level up group is bad and you don't get special damage until later, but I'd be shocked if Charizard was still doing much better by the end. Zard has slash and is faster, but Gyarados has such a wide movepool and great offenses on both ends.
After watching: I am always impressed by how different these runs go compared to how the competitive Gen I scene goes. My knowledge of Gen I competitive always screws over my analysis, lol. Stuff like how boosting, outside of amnesia strats, is generally bad. Gyarados' stats and movepool place it head and shoulders above Charizard in 6v6 singles, but that's because fire is kind of a bad type in gen I and also boosting is bad. Level up groups are relevant here and even if I know that going in every time, I can never give this part the weight it deserves. Level up learnsets are also relevant here, but not in singles.
Great video!
Speaking of gen I competitive, normal Mew might also be interesting? Like if Mew was normal in gen I it could be more of a menace than Mewtwo in all likelihood because of swords dance+body slam(including the para chance)+softboiled with less checks but in your challenges it’d also make pound stab which could help the early game. And you’d still have Mew’s vast movepool for the mid to late game complementing it. Maybe even make it psychic/normal to tilt things even more in its favor, lol.
The idea of. Normal Mew is being explored in my Mew series on the Members side of the channel. But if it's really interesting, I may make it a general audience video!.
Level groups and badge boosting are so incredibly important in Gen 1 solo challenges. They really separate the best from the rest on this format.
So, I think that the difference was more significant than you make it out to be.
Yes, the score wasn't that different - 76.6 isn't a huge upscale from 75.3. But let's look at the other factors. Like time: 1:24 versus 2:17. That's a pretty significant chunk of time shaved off, and while maybe some of it can be chalked up to optimization, I'd be surprised if that was all it was. And 19 resets is FAR lower than the 92 of the normal Gyarados.
The choice to take more optional battles may have helped a bit with those resets, but I actually think some of them were unnecessary. For instance, I think you could have beaten Giovanni without them, it felt like you bailed really quickly when you were really just one unlucky crit from winning, and tacking on 15 optional battles was almost 4 points off of your score...I don't think it would've taken 40 resets to get through Giovanni at your original level.
It's also worth looking at moveset. 6 TMs used for each, but you had to pull out higher-power moves to make it through originally, while you were able to keep the mid-level moveset with Dragon Gyarados. It had the luxury of not needing to rely on Hyper Beam spam.
In sum, I think the result here is a bit deceptive. While the final score lays similar, the tape itself tells of a run that is FAR more less stressful. You don't need to take roundabout routings, you don't need to game plan heavily around a crippling weakness, even if it only pops up in limited situations. You can rely on more accurate moves because you aren't desperate for burst power to get through the Electric-types. And most importantly, you don't have to get lucky nearly as much. Numbers don't lie, but they also don't always tell the whole story, and I think this story says that Dragon type absolutely helped Gyarados. (It was never going to be above Charizard because Charizard gets BBG, but that's true with or without the Dragon-type.)
I had a whole huge comment I typed up for the Charizard video and somehow it vanished. I had predictions and everything in there, that annoys me!
I was expecting Gyarados to have a harder time than Charizard because of lack of BBG. Seadra I think might have a harder time still - it gets Agility, but that's not a great badge boost, and while its typing will be the same as Gyarados it doesn't have as good of stats or movepool. Still, adding Dragon typing is really just a straight upgrade so I don't see how it could do worse.
Aerodactyl, I think, might actually be harmed by the Dragon type. It's frail, it too only has Agility for BBG, and there are places where it really, REALLY wants to be able to set up where it won't be able to - specifically, Dugtrio and Champion Sandslash. It might need Burn luck, it might need Confusion luck, it might need Reflect. Although it loses a couple of weaknesses, I think the one that it gains will make those two battles much more of a slog, and that alone will make the difference (I don't think much changes in the rest of the game).
I agree to some degree. A lot of it was optimization though, since for Normal Gyarados I went hard on Resets trying to avoid levelling and TMs, only to find it just didn't work. There a re a lot of battles that are technically winnable but just require stupid luck.
That being said, the point that the run is less stressful is absolutely true and beating the game with weaker moves also is a very fair comment.
I agree with you that Aerodactyl is most hurt by the Dragon type. It loses ALL STAB and adds significant weaknesses in the place with little benefit. Seadra will be interesting, since it can use Accuracy strats as well in the early game and has an easier Brock split. So it might end up faster, but that depends on whether is gets enough moves late
@@RBYPokemonChallenges To be fair, Aerodactyl's STAB wasn't good to begin with. Wing Attack and Fly, and Flying-type offense isn't good in Gen 1. (I don't know I'd say it's that good NOW, to be honest...there's a lack of options that are accessible, have good power, and are without drawbacks.) I mean, considering you already had to resort to Hyper Beam and Mimic in the normal run, I think STAB is probably going to be lower on the list of issues.
It seems pretty obvious to me that Gyarados and Charizard were both meant to be dragon types.
When you pick Charmander the game tells you that it's hard to raise... so it was most likely supposed to be the "high risk high reward" starter, being far stronger than Blastoise and Venusaur, but also evolving way later. But then they scrapped that and made them equal, probably out of concern that the final rival fight may be too hard if you picked Bulbasaur.
Gyarados was probably intentionally nerfed as well and i don't get why... they should have made it evolve later instead. Magikarp not evolving until level 40 but becoming a semi legendary when it does would have been amazing
Agreed on both points. it's especially strange that they gave Gyarados such an OP moveset in Gen 1 and in Red/Blue the Rival has a Gyarados from Lavender onward if he isn't running Squirtle
@@RBYPokemonChallenges Yeah it's weird to give it to the rival. Actually according to the datamined professor oak's fight, Gyarados was supposed to be his ace, it's even higher level than the third starter
You should start with a Magikarp with Tackle, because having a Garados right at the beginning doesnt feels right for such a run.
Perhaps something to try at a different time. I have a playlist of 18 hours of Magikarp runs if you'd like to see some of that though
I don't think the dragon typing would make much of a difference. It's better defensively against Lt Surge but I don't anticipate much difference beyond that.
We shall see!
You are NOT GSC Pokémon Challenges!!!
And, 10:29 imo I would've tried to hold out for the bubble beam TM
Yeah, I honestly think more than that the Water Gun TM was unnecessary. But it need one or the other for opps like the Rock Tunnel Hiker.
my guess is would say dragon should do better probably not by much .
it been a flying type doesn't really help it that much seems hurt it more than anything
but am excited to see how much difference will be :) . no spoiler yet please :)
Yeah, the question is really how much does a 4x weakness to Electric actually matter? Competitively against intelligent humans, it would make a massive difference, but this is about the game AI in a solo challenge
26:32 Ice beam would’ve been super effective surely?
For sure, I may have misplayed there. I'll check the tape!
A level 16 Gyarados what kind of sorcery is this
Actually catchable at a fairly low level wild in Yellow behind the Fishing Guru's house
initial predicition, better
almost nothing uses EQ, and removing electric weaknesses is good
Fair enough. Let's find out!
From what I see, members get new content one ahead then non members. But in Generation 1 there isn't really many dragon type moves so I don't think Gyarados should be that much different.
Yeah, I release the live commentary to Members first. Sometimes they get extra challenges that I don't release on the main channel
so... tall kingdra?
Tall Kingdra with a significantly wider movepool?
Op to the max
We shall see! Let's go!
The Slow level-up group is rough.
Yeah, it's rough. High stats just aren't quite enough in some spots
The Dark Lord Dome fossil
Protect yo dome (fossil)
So it seems like Gyarados with a water/dragon typing is only slightly better than gyarados with a water/flying typing. But Gyarados with a dragon/water typing would probably be a fair bit better than Gyarados with a water/dragon typing, since enemies wouldn't even use electric moves then. Or maybe it would be worse because of Giovanni and Lorelei, I dunno.
Ah gen 1, lol. I guess Gyarados in its base typing is really only weak to electric and rock. Rock type moves are really rare, and the few mon that have them are one shot by surf anyway. Electric types are also rare, so the rival is really the only trainer in the game with a pokemon that can exploit it. Maybe Giovanni too with thunderbolt Nidos.
Water/Dragon has no weaknesses, but it just didn't change much. Losing the immunity to ground was mildly annoying in exactly one fight: Giovanni (surf kos every other ground type before they can attack). Gyarados' original resistances to bug and fighting are pretty useless, so it doesn't care about losing those. Changing fire and water from regular resists to x4 resists doesn't do that much when most trainers have 'good' AI anyway and won't use those moves on gyarados regardless. Gyarados doesn't lose or gain any offensive STAB, so offensively the type change is completely irrelevant, and defensively the type change is mostly irrelevant.
Gyarados' base typing is just already really good, so the rival's jolteon is the only thing that actually cares about it transitioning in to this better type. The way things played out, most of the time you were at low health by the time it came out anyway, so you were banking on thunder missing, so even that didn't matter too much. Shockingly little changed, but I guess it makes sense.
You can even prevent the rival's Jolteon by skipping the second rival fight. He'll have Flareon, then.
So the order of the types does not change the AI response at all. Whether it's Water/Dragon or Dragon/Water is actually exactly the same to Level 2 AI in the game.
You are spot on about how little the type change affected things. And in this case since Jolteon only uses electric moves against it, it is basically going all in for the Thunder or using Thunder Wave and giving a chance.
The reason we went against the Jolteon team is because I don't fight wild Pokemon in my runs, only trainers. It's because my overlay is set to only count trainer battles, not wild battles. So the only way to get the XP to beat Bricks Geodude was to fight Rival 1a. With better luck on not beating Light Years boy, we could have avoided that.
Yes it will be better based ln the simple logic it has no flying moves so the stab is useless but makes it 4 times weak to electric dragon while yes also not having any stab moves here removes the 4 times electroc weakness and 2 times rock weakness so its better like you dont need to think about it that hard its fairly obvious why its just better it has less drawbacks and about the dame advantages then flying
That is the logic. But how is it in practice?
Maybe you could make Thrash a 120 power dragon type move and give it to gyarados
so just give it outrage?
@@TheBronf yes at a suitable.level like 42 or higher. Also dragon rage could be a nice 60 base power dragon stab
I'd have to make a proper ROM Hack for it, but it would be cool to try
@@RBYPokemonChallenges And Gust animation can be used for making Twister with 40 base power dragon type
Kingdra would be the best proof
Kingdra in Gen 2 is it
Ngl, your rating system doesn’t really make sense. A Gyara with dragon/water would definitely not be below 90. Half the decisions you made lowered the score when you didn’t have to, those were your choices to make it easier or harder.
The TM score is iffy cause if anything being able to learn a wide range of TMs should boost the rating. If you want to go with the natural move sets for rating then TMs should only be .5 deductions or .3 off. You’re lowering ratings for decisions you make and not because it’s necessary. Just kinda of a flawed rating system
Fair feedback. I've gone deep in a lot of past runs about the reasons for my personal system, but I've always maintained. that anyone is free to interpret the results as they like
you could have avoided bide damage if Gyradaos had splash
Damn.... Splash IS useful!
I was today years old when I realized that the reason gyarados is water-flying is because of a story where a carp learned to jump good.
Facts!
Dragon Venasaur next??
Next is Dragon Aerodactyl, then Dragon Seadra, and Dragon/Normal Dragonite, but that could be interesting!
Thays why i play pokemon liquid crystal. Love that rom hack
Never played Liquid Crystal, but if it has DraKarp in it, I'm down!
@@RBYPokemonChallenges you should chedk it out its really cool, also has the physical special split.
That's awesome! Rom Hacks are still a bit down the line for me. So much I want to do in the vanilla game, but there will certainly come a time for come backports and Rom hacks on the channel
It should have bubble or dragon rage at level 1
Don't worry, were coming back to that!
Hey man, that might sound strange but maybe you need glasses, cause you look like you're forcing your eyes closed to look at your screen, that's also how I understood I needed some :)
Yeah, I have an eye condition called Keratoconus, and at this point glasses do nothing for me. Saving up for a corneal transplant surgery someday
*says he's going to avoid using tms as much as possible*
*uses every relevant tm*
I mean, in testing they were always necessary.
@@RBYPokemonChallenges fair enough 🤣 thanks for the video!!
brocky boi surgey boi blainey boy lancey boi Giovanni boi
Yeeeeeeah boooooooiiiiiiii!
I don t care it would have been uber, Charizard, Gyarados, Aerodactyl and Tyranitar should have all been dragon type
Yes
Fyi, this video was meant to be watched at x1.25 speed.
Wow, did I talk that slow 😂
It’s not like it used the flying type in gen 1 so yeah dragon makes it op
That was basically the logic. Trade a useless secondary typing for one that give much more in terms of resistances
@@RBYPokemonChallenges you planning on doing this with other types or just possible dragon mons?
I don't understand why Mega Gyarados isn't a Dragon. They chose Dark instead and it doesn't make much sense. I mean, Bite is a Dark move and it looks like a Pokemon that will bite you but that's not a good enough reason to make it Dark instead of Dragon.
Exactly this! 💯
Rock-Dragon Aerodactyl will be interesting as it won't learn a single STAB move aside from the fixed-damage Dragon Rage all game.
Yeah, given ot already has a shallow movepool, I expect it is significantly worse
@RBYPokemonChallenges
I'm looking at developing stats for Pokémon LEGACY Yellow n they're considering dragon charizard n gyarados
I told the devs NO BECAUSE I think rock n electric get massively nerfed by not having threat offensively vs elite Pokémon
@@RBYPokemonChallengesthat being said bug n ghost n grass got massive buffs
Fighting got stat n coverage buffed ie rock slide n small base buffs to stats
Psychic got nerfed except for hypno who is considered a ghost check
Ghost is special n dragon physical in this remake
It's gen 1 except far more balanced n the gyms are legitimate challenges
Play at 1.25x, welcome.
Honestly, however you prefer. I edit and review at 2x in my editor most of the time, so it probably plays best at 2x speed, honestly
speaking of Pokemon who should be Dragon type but aren't, Aggron, and i will not be sorry about it
There we go, proof Game Freak and the Pokemon Company are bad at type selection.....
@@RBYPokemonChallenges like how can you look at Aggron and not at least give it a Steel/Dragon regional form
Fck Charizard, it makes sense why it wasn’t made into a dragon type.
But Gary? Gary should have been dragon type day 1. It’s fcking lore even says it’s a dragon.
Lol, Gary the Dragon type lol. I'm just imagining Gary going into a rage and burning Ash to a crisp 😂
too broken but if you start the RUN with it as a Magi CRAP then its still useless.
I mean, it was still kind of useless against Brock either way lol
are you okay bro? do you need glasses you seem to squint a lot
I have Keratoconus, I think I talked about it back in the MewPoo vs. Godkarp video. Not correctable by glasses or regular contacts, and I prefer not to wear the hard lenses when I'm home relaxing
@@RBYPokemonChallenges oh I see I didn't know, just had this video randomly recommended to me
still whatever cuz no physical moves kekL
Yeah, it doesn't get a lot of good physical moves. Body Slam and Hyper Beam basically.