Who's next? Support Media Zealot on Patreon to vote and gain access to other perks: www.patreon.com/mediazealot 1. Viggo Tarasov (John Wick) 2. The Wet Bandits (Home Alone 1 & 2) 3. Ingen (Jurassic Park franchise) 4. Steppenwolf (Justice League) 5. Ultron (Avengers: Age of Ultron) If you have a suggestion for a different contender, please leave it in the comments below!
As for Advanced Sci-Fi Civs, I thought you could give these a run for their money: •Time Lords, _Doctor Who_ •Children of Tama, _Star Trek_ •Oceania, _Nineteen Eighty-Four_ (1984)
Amen. Their culture probably nuked itself to the stone age for eons before finally a handful of non-Kazon Kazons made it to the stars and their OG culture, like returning cancer, resurfaced in their species.
@@Flaris tuvok is straight up one of the best things about that show shame like many characters is ignored and not explored more granted he is a great Vulcan.
@christian langdon the Vulcans have been explored to death already, we've seen their homeworld, culture, education, social living qualities, histories, futures everything, so what exactly did the show ignore whennit came to Tuvok? Voyager was an ensemble show, sure it had a a couple of obvious leads, but the rest of the cast got plenty of screen time, story arc devotion & personal plot points, Tuvok was explored & expanded upon consistently every season
@@jimreaper1337 I'm not disagreeing vulcans are really well expanded on but that's not to say you couldn't yave different cultures within them or whatnot. That's like saying humans shouldn't be included becouse we have explored them before. That's not really the point. And it's fair to say that despite some great characters voyager is probably the weakest at actually expanding their character in real ways. It's like ds9 or next generation where each character really grows each time and the effects of their episodes are felt through the series. The biggest ones we get in Voyager is who is dating who. Tuvok remains not well developed by many say the same of Kim, parish and others the only well and fully developed characters in Voyager is jainway, seven and the doctor. All of whom get major series of episodes that alone make the rest of the other cast episodes fit within a less than a season.
@christian langdon right so in a Space Opera about a human spaceship, in a human led federation & on human adventures, you want to see the History Channels version of Vulcans I mean sure a deeper dive could be done, but not during a Star Trek TNG/Voyager series run, maybe something along the lines of a limited run series set on Vulcan with a devent overarching plot & comolex characters could work but then that's not Star Trek is it Tuvok was explored man, he had specific story arcs, he went from a Marquee infiltrator to Security Chief, he de-evolved for a time, he was always runnjng covert operations & investigations and over time grew a strong friendship with Nelix, he was explored almost as much as Janeway and infinity more so than Chakotey It's an ensemble show, that's how they work, you can't have a show where 15 people are all playing the lead Go back and re-watch the Voyager series it's not held up the greatest, but it's better than whats trying to pass for Star Trek right now, you'll also see how that show fleshed out their characters as best they could being as it was basically them on a submarine for 5 years 🖖
Admittedly, Seska's betrayal did lead to one of Chakotay's best lines. I'm paraphrasing, but I remember him saying to Tuvok about the Maquis: "You were working for Starfleet... she was working for the Cardassians... was there anyone in the crew who was working for ME?"
I have an explanation for Seska's sloppiness: she may be a spy but she might not be a good one. Maybe the Obsidian Order gave her the job of infiltrating a minor Maquis cell because it wasn't that important a mission.
The main purpose of the Obsidian Order is to spy on their own population. Garak is the exception, but most of them are not nearly as good as they think they are.
Considering she was assinged to a garbage skiff being hunted by one of the most advanced Starfleet ships, I don't think she was held in very high regard.
When B'Elanna of all people is advising someone to "cool down" before they get themselves into trouble they really should immediately realise they really are too hot headed. Also, when a Borg drone is more willing to co-operate with Starfleet rather than assimilate them, that should be a wake up call. But no, not for Seska. She could not take even clearly helpful advice let alone constructive criticism.
Yeah, as people to miss in the shuffle goes, the highly experienced guerrilla fighter and serial killer would not be my first choice. Even if Suder wasn't trying to redeem himself by helping, having a man who previously killed someone for looking at him funny crawling around the bowels of the ship is not going to be helpful, especially if the urge to kill comes upon him again (especially since we have ample evidence that Suder has FAR great combat skills than any Kazon).
@@JamesTobiasStewart that's like leaving Garak behind on DS9. Only Garak would have probably found a way to survive and convince everyone the Doctor actually DID do it. Knowing the EMH eh would go for it and use it to pressure people to observe their food plan recommendations.
It would not be the first time. Remember when in deep space 9 the Bajoran supremacist were armed by the Cardassians in order to get rid of the federation.
You gotta feel for the actors: "Please! At least make my character competent! If you can't give me some memorable lines or scenes at least don't make me a joke!"
Yeah, I never really got Seska’s motivation in the show. She was supposed to be a Cardassian spy infiltrating the Maquis, likely in an attempt to take them down from within. I get she was p*ssed about Janeway basically stranding them all in the Delta Quadrant, but her actions did inadvertently lead to the disillusionment of Chakotay’s Cell, thereby accomplishing Seska’s original mission. Yet, every time, for whatever reason, she always seems to side with or have sympathy for the former-Maquis, even after her cover is blown. Honestly, her best option would’ve been to come clean with Starfleet from the beginning. I mean, Tuvok was already a spy just like her with a similar mission, and at the time of Voyager’s abduction, there were technically no open hostilities between the Federation and Cardassia. Hell, as a “representative of the Cardassian Union” or something, she might’ve gotten herself an honorary seat as part of the Command Crew, giving her some say in how the ship is run. Neelix got one, and he was just the cook.
This is actually a good point. Remember Voyager's mission was anti-Maquis operations that were probably to be done in concert with any Cardassian ships encountered. While I can see her wanting to keep her status on the downlow from the majority of the crew, and especially other Marquis ops, there really is no reason to keep her status from Janeway. Unless she wants to snag everything she can about the Intrepid class. But even then, she really goes about her business in the worse way possible. I agree with the video, it's like she's TRYING to get caught.
Neelix was given the job of ambassador because he was the only one on the entire ship who knew anything about the Delta Quadrant. His position was not just honorary, it was pretty damn important and useful in establishing which species to avoid the most and which were helpful. Seska is a former spy, and has no agency on the ship even being a cardassian representative. She should have revealed it, but it wasn't like she'd be given command crew status without any real skills to put to use, and a spy would just be another soldier under Tuvok's command.
@@danbuckig4564 - Neelix’s position was important in theory. In practice, it was evident by like episode 3 that he was next to useless as an “ambassador”. Hell, there was a whole episode where he pretended to betray the crew or something to try and get some info about the region they were going into because he admitted that Voyager had hit the point that he now had zero clue about any of the people or places they were going to encounter. He was literally just the cook and “morale officer” at that point.
These sorts of villains always kind of bug me. She kind of threw away her inital motivation as a mere spy to become some evil nutjob who constantly betrayed everyone and caused tons of conflict for little other reason beyond "just in it for the evulz". I think she actually hurt her cause more than helped it since she made enemies of several species in the Delta Quadrant while also causing conflict with the Federation when she could have established relationships with locals and created allies for the Cardassians to turn into a foothold in the Delta Quadrant. There's a reason why so many "first contact" stories usually at least try to establish a good relationship, usually through gifts or trade, rather than starting off with conflict: a small scuffle can result in permanent bad relations with the faction or civilization as a whole. The Soviets initially had no real cause to hate the US but spent the interwar years and WW2 distrustful of the US for trying to support the White Russians in the Russian Civil War (the Bolsheviks and later Soviets enemy), a few small battles soured relations and they never really improved and it helped spurn the communists away from trying to export communism to the world and focus on just Russia/USSR at first.
@@planescaped I'm actualy satisfied how the show turned out all in all. Would not change a thing. MAybe lessen the Unimatrix Zero romantic fluff, cut a bit from the Year of Doom, and adjust some details in the final season, but generaly, I'm satisfied, and ST:V is probably the best of the franchise.
We need more Voyager villians just so we can have more Tuvok-heavy episodes. The Borg have to be on the list. Heck the Borg are so dumb they might need more than one episode.
@@Marveryn You can laways improve on the minor things, but that's my point: those are minor things. The show overall is a good show, unlike certain TNG.
On Seska's work with Jonas: let's not forget her scheme was accidentally exposed by Neelix, of all people. How incompetent does one have to be to get caught by that guy of all people?
Seven was always most badass in Borg Drone mode. Recalling a scene in "Living Witness": Badass Janeway: "You always want to expand your shock troops. Assimilate them." Badass Seven: "Understood."
Agreed. It was a shame they got her out of the borg suit so early because they wanted Ryan as a sex object. Her physical transition occurring alongside her emotional journey would have been a much more effective way of going about it. Have her combat implants removed forcably as part of the compromise to take her alive, but have the Doctor effectively put his foot down on the medical ethics of operating on a patient without their consent for anything more. Then you gradually remove implants little by little as they either break down without maintenance Voyager is too primitive to provide, or Seven herself decides she has a problem with because of the way their presence is separating her from the crew and leaving her in the worst emotional state someone raised Borg can feel, lonely.
You know, put it like that, I think it would've been interesting to have Seska, as a Cardassian, as part of the crew. It's the more pragmatic choice to make, so that's what she should have gone with. But no. They were so *desperate* to make the Kazon a threat, have some kind of villain capable of fairly matching the crew that they used her in the dumbest way possible.
One of the biggest mistakes they made early on was having Voyager seemingly be a good 100 years ahead of everyone else in terms of technology. When the Kazon lacked technology that was commonplace on Kirk's Enterprise, then they were never going to be much of a threat. Making them bargain-bin Klingons with a little Ferengi misogyny mixed in also didn't help to differentiate them as a species. They should have dumped Voyager into a wild west environment, surrounded by hostile - and technologically competent - aliens. Imagine the show if its first two seasons had them completely unsure which way to turn because there were ruthless killers in all directions. It would have made Neelix more useful too, particularly if he was equally as grizzled and battle-hardened as everyone else, instead of being a comedy ferret.
@@Helbore The fact they basically sailed with little to no repairs was a big mistake as well due to their high technology. They basically couldn't trust any space dock for repairs, meaning they never got any dmg they couldn't fix themselves for the most part. Compare that to the Enterprise or any other Star Trek ship which often had to get full repairs after every major battle. Essentially they never had any fears other than crew members dying, usually because they bothered to stop and smell the roses.
Having a recurring villain in Voyager is a massive problem, because the ship ins constantly travelling in a straight direction. It was much easier in Deep Space 9, because a station is not going anywhere; it is in the description.
@@schwarzerritter5724 True, and that's part of the waste. They should never have written her off the ship, and she actually would have made a brilliant antihero character.
I always thought Seska as a main member of the crew had so much more potential than just making her a useless, throwaway villain. She could've been the one who did the wetwork the federation was too cowardly to do in order to get them home. Have her spend half her time stuck in the brig, the other half screwing over aliens in order to get them home quicker. Maybe give her a redemption arc over the course of the series. But I forget, Voyager had a severe aversion to long term storytelling and continuity. >__>
@@aguysomewhere8277 "That's why you came to me, isn't it Janeway? Because you knew that I could do those things that you weren't capable of doing. Well it worked, and you'll get what you want. A war between the Krenim Imperium and the Borg. And if your conscience is bothering you, you should soothe it with the knowledge that you may have just saved the entire Delta Quadrant." - Plain Simple Seska
@@aguysomewhere8277 I did basically just describe Garak didn't I? XD Still, I'd have been happy with more Garak. Especially since Garak was never really a bad guy/villain, where Seska was. A villain who helps them that they don't want to, but are stuck with sounds like a fun setup for story ideas. And coming up for a reason why they have to keep her around wouldn't be too hard. Maybe she sabotaged the biogel and it requires her/Cardassian DNA to run.
I'm reminded of Rick and Shane from The Walking Dead. Rick telling Shane he can't do the bad stuff he's been doing because they need to be better then that, ultimately leading to Shane's demise, only for Rick to eventually turn into him anyway.
I will defend Janeway's decision to destroy the Array. That thing killed a third of the crew when it was fully functional and had someone with centuries of experience running it. I doubt that thing would be less likely to scatter their molecules across the galaxy with them trying to get it up and running under battlefield conditions and after a starship crashed into it (and add in Tuvok's line that I am convinced was added after they originally finished filming that it would take hours to boot up). The only way to use the Array would have been to negotiate with the Kazon and likely leave it in their hands.
SF Debris listed a few different things they could've done. My favorite was leave behind a photon or quantum torpedo on a timer to blow the thing up after using it.
@@planescaped How would that help? They would need to 1. Figure out how to activate the Array. 2. Do so under battlefield conditions. 3. Hold the Array for the several hours it would take to activate as per Tuvok's statement. 4. Hold it while having a damaged ship and while being severely outnumbered. 5. Hold it while the Kazon were bringing in reinforcements. 6. Fix whatever damage the Array suffered when a Kazon ship crashed into it, while under attack. A photon torpedo on a timer would not give them the fighting capability to do any of that, nor fix the damaged Array. Edit: Plus, it doesn't address the "killed a third of the crew when it was used by someone with centuries of experience" concern.
I slogged my way through the first few seasons of Voyager and it does get better around season 4. The Kazon stop showing up after season 3 iirc which was great 👍. Tuvok and the doctor are such great characters and honestly Neelix isnt as bad as the amount of hate he gets. That episode with Brad Dourif is one of the few good early episodes.
The kazon stop appearing after the season 3 opener (Basics part 2), and my issue with Neelix is that he was grossly misused in his role. Having a crew member who is a travelled local is an excellent idea. Making him the comic-relief fuckup isn’t.
@@goldengolem4670 He was utterly despised by a large portion of the fanbase. And yeah, Voyager had a lot of great stories, characters and ideas. the problem with the show was that they had no real respect for continuity outside of a few instances (Year of Hell teaser, Tom and B'lanna getting together) and no long term story-telling or plans for the show. It had a ton of potential, but they never really did enough with it.
Dourif is stellar in this show. I haven’t seen the episodes in almost a decade but I still remember his arc being one of the few in Voyager that worked for me.
What Star Trek Voyager SHOULD have been is the Battlestar Galactica reboot. It should have been constantly under attack whilst low on supplies and surrounded by enemies at every turn. But it wasn't. It was a show with a supremely powerful reset button and scripts that felt as if they were ripped straight from The Next Generation. Had we gotten the ''Voyager'' that we should have had, Seska's suggestion to ally with the Kazon for protection and to play lose with Starfleet's almighty principles actually would have been a sound move. As would her decision to betray Voyager, as it legitimately would have looked to her as if she was on the losing side. TL;DR, Voyager was wasted potential incarnate.
That really should have been the marquis crew members shtick in general. To be the guys operating in the gray areas and counterpoint to the federation goody two shoes approach . Kind of thought that was the point of setting that up but instead the blended crews were indistinguishable from each other a few episodes in.
No, it should’ve been like the grossly underrated Stargate Universe, where the crew is the victim of circumstances rather than malevolent forces out to get them.
Fun fact: Ronald D Moore himself confirmed in one of the post-episode podcasts he did during the BSG reboot that Voyager was indeed intended to have a tone more reminiscent of BSG (which he wanted to finally realize when he joined the main production staff at the start of Season 6 after finishing up DS9), but studio meddling, along with some drama that went down with Brannon Braga prevented that from ever happening.
Keep in mind Voyager is nearly a decade older than the reimagined Battlestar Galactica. At the time when Voyager was created, episodic shows with no real progression or overarching story were firmly the norm. Even The X-Files and Babylon 5, shows known for their story arcs, just started a year or so earlier and were still focused on episodic storytelling in most of their episodes.
Alt strategy: Come clean, reveal your real skills, rank, and cold harsh opinions - and effectively become Seven of Nine several seasons early. A Token Evil team mate would have been so much more fun than the Fem Fetale nonsense we got.
Yeah that was always a strange design decision. Even if we assume that Janeway stops at ever interesting looking rock, the Kazon are still traveling further and further from they center of power. And its a small faction, they should not be able to affort this for long, even with replicator.
One theory I've seen as to why Seska behaved so ridiculously is that she was suffering from a mental condition. While she was infiltrating the Maquis in the Alpha Quadrant, she had relatively easy access to the Cardassian medicine she needed to manage her condition, but once Voyager became stranded, she was unable to duplicate it and became more and more irrational... or more likely after they failed to get the Sikarian portal tech to work she just panicked because as a Cardassian spy aboard a ship where a quarter of the crew are Maquis who would probably want to kill her
am going she just flip. She spent years of undercover being someone she wasn't and then have the situation in the delta happen. So mentally she may not had been completely stable as she had suffer a breakdown.
I always felt that Seska was a major flaw in the world of trek I mean she should be near the same level as Garak for such an important mission yet is genuinely the worst secret agent of any franchise... You could pit her against Johnny English on cardassia prime and she would still lose.
Putting a timed explosive on the CareTakers Array would have been a smart move, activate the Array create a worm hole transport a timed explosive into the Array counting down by T minus 5 minutes so that the worm hole doesn’t collapse on to your starship.
Would anyone want the kazon to have that ability to rraid any part of the galaxy at will just to return to that Caretaker array? I would have destroyed it myself. That a nightmare after a few seconds consideration. She jumped at the first ally learning nothing of the surrounding players. The Kazon are aggressive and nomadic winners?
Re: Shattered. Damn Seska, you know your plan is shit when even the Borg think its a bad idea. If it were even remotely viable, the drones in the cargo bay would've totally tried it.
Note that the Doctor doesn't even deny that he can lie, only that he doesn't have much experience with "bare-faced lying". This is a true statement but it's intentionally misleading and thus not "bald faced lying". He actually lampshades how he can shade the truth by making a statement that could be shading the truth, and she doesn't get it. This is an intelligence officer.
I always loved the line from when Seska was outted as a Cardassian, 'If we were on a Cardassian ship, we would be home now'. I doubt that the Cardassians would have faired better against the bargin basement Klingons, sorry I mean Kazon, then Voyager did. They wouldn't have destroyed the Caretaker's array but also would have cut an run leaving it to the Kazon which would have meant the same journey as Voyager just without the exploring part.
I hadn't thought of it much before, but yeah, I tend to agree. When watching for the first time when I was around 13, I did wonder why making an alliance with a species you'll soon leave behind was particularly sensible. I mean sure, tomorrow doesn't matter much if you won't live through the day, but leaving the ship seemed excessive.
If all the Vulcan’s from every Star Trek show talked to each other as war strategists, I don’t know if I will be bored because they speak like robots, or excited to hear them talk because they will out logic each other
This breakdown really shows what an opportunity the writers of Voyager missed with Seska. Just imagine her as part of the main cast filling in a Garek type role.
they should had keep her in the ship as a prisoner who janeway could go do and shoot ideas with when she found a problem that star fleet principal couldn't solve.
@@613aristocrat That's not the kind of acid trip I have in mind when thinking of Voyager. More of a goofy "what even are numbers" kind of trip. Now DS9? Sure
Seska's storyline was wasted. I always felt that season 1 should have had more tension between both the crews, sadly after Torres became Chief Engineer the Marquis just said "Ok, we cool". Seska could have stayed on Voyager longer while trying to keep the crews separate, causing rifts between the senior officers. Plus I always thought it was funny that the first time we see her she is in a blue (science/medical) uniform then suddenly she is in the Gold uniform.
Tbf it was pretty meme-worthy how every single time they see a new nebula or anomaly the Voyager just rams into it face first to get into more life-threatening situations. Not that TNG was any better about that.
I think it would have been interesting. If while seska was on the ship small random things would break. And they find out after she leaves voyager. she was just breaking things randomly to be a pain.
The Vast Majority of Villains are too stupid to win to be honest. That's because few are fleshed out beyond BAD GUY! And additional perspective makes them sympathetic. In TNG the Ferengi were incredibly stupid. In DS9 however? Wow! A whole species with incredible depth and knowledge including a religion and their own completely separate mindset that is distinct and while not completely agreeable with humans is still distinctive and sensible in it's own way. In other words, compare the random Ferengi in TNG to Quark. One's a villain to stupid to win and the other is a VERY compelling character, and the only difference is that we have so much time with Quark.
She really should have just come clean, she would have had a chance to be accepted, I know part of what forced her evil sooner was the Doctor going "Hey you never came for your bloodwork" thing, which never made any sense to me as simple transporter pattern or scan for life signs should have shown her for what she was from day 0....
Her best bet would have been to just have a word with Janeway, and explain her need to be left on a populated world. If she stayed on board sooner or later she’d get knocked up, and have to explain why the kid looks Cardassian.
The best description of Janeway I’ve heard so far “one of this annoying Federation types” 1:00 😂On that note I suggest a companion series titled “Heroes so stupid they don’t deserve to win”
Seska had a lot of potential and yet she was wasted and her way of doing things didn't help her out neither. Here are a few suggestions for the next video: -NFFA from the Purge franchise -Handsome Jack from the Borderlands video game franchise
You seem to be forgetting Neelix admitted he never reported for duty; he dodged the draft. You can still decide he's a badass If you'd like, but he never saw combat. He did assist in the cleanup after the metreon cascade.
What if the tale the Obsidian Order spun about Ilyana Gemor in DS9: Second Skin was partially true for Seska? While the Obsidian Order was making things up when they pretended Kira was Ilyana Gemor, they must have told enough truth to convince legate Gemor who knew something about the transformation. So it is possible that Seska didn't even properly know she was a cardassian sleeping agent until her true form started reemerging. Until then, she was programmed to act as a rebellious bajoran, on the side of Maquis and against the Federation. When she realized she was in fact a Cardassian herself, her programming clashed with who she truly was and she went insane from the cognitive dissonance. 27:17 Hence my theory. When she was messing with Tuvok's program, she did not yet know she was Cardassian. As far as she knew, she was a zealous Maqui. There is the question of how the OO intended to retrieve information from these agents. They would have to capture her to restore her true memories and loyalty. But that would be ridiculously risky.
Seska didn't make anysense tbh, like a better story would she would be a cardassian spy, she tries to destroy voyager but kinda hesitates because she has come to love the crew, but is conflicted with being a cardassian spy and angry at Janeway but then after a cool episode and lots of emotion surrenders then has to build trust up with the crew all over again but developing her into a cool character
As ever, DS9 did it better, with the “Cardassian spy disguised as Bajoran” bit in “Second Skin.” All Voyagers best plots were stolen from better shows.
Eventually Seska's blood would be tested, and they'd learn the truth no matter what. She either had to tell them the truth, or act. She made her choice
@@Shruikin I agree. There would have been the typical moral handringing the Federation types love to do, then they'd all hug and move on. Seska just doesn't make sense. Even if her plans worked she'd either be stuck with the Kazon or stuck on Voyager after clearly killing Tuvok
A key part like many the "Too Stupid to Win" video's is Seksa kind of lacks a real defined goal. In theory she wants to get back to the Alpha Quadrant, but where? She would be a failed spy returning if she went back to the Obsidian Order. Unless she kept her cover the entire time in the Delta Quadrant she wouldn't be able to remain in place as a spy either. Never mind if it took years said conflict could be over one way or the other. Or people just lose trust, "freedom fighters" which are often a lose collection of cells don't exactly welcome long lost members who mysteriously appear.
She should have stayed as a Romulans on the Defiant, they would have given her a much more interesting character arc. And the Kazons were such a big missed opportunity. The premise behind them was interesting, they were a slave race who revolted against their masters but became even more cruel than their former masters. Since the Kazons didn't develop their technology, they should have had them use their technology in reckless and dangerous ways. They could have been used to show just how powerful and dangerous all that advanced 24th century technology is when put in the wrong hands.
Considering her situation, Seska would've been better off just going all in on being a member of the Voyager crew, doubly so since the Cardasians and their Dominion allies lost the war by the time they were close to home.
Hell, most of the Voyager crew were better off in the Delta Quadrant compared to fighting in the Dominion War. Except probably Suder. I have a feeling he would've been invaluable in the defense of Betazed.
Would've been nice having more non-human, non-federation characters on the ship. The marquis were supposed to be guerilla's, but they almost never touched on that outside of season 1, and even then, it was barely a thing. They gave us Neelix... who was far cooler in his conceptualization than execution(original storyboards had him as more of a Han Solo type, hence why Neelix's character is a lot different in the pilot than in other episodes). And then we got Seven. At least she was good...
@@planescaped Neelix would have been far better if the writers had doubled down on him being a competent ship captain, trader and negotiator. Instead they went with chef and wide-eyed jr. crew member. Neelix as semi-Ferengi would have been cool. Too bad.
She was Nietzschean. Star Trek actually had the balls to portray fascists correctly in their show so I'm not surprised typical American bullshit fed idiots can't understand her.
So a Mexican guy pretending to be Native American? Technically, Mexicans and Hispanics in general are Native Americans, or at least of Native descent (usually Mayan or Nahuatl). The Polynesian (I'm guessing Maori) tattoo is a different issue and could be construed as cultural appropriation. The fact that the "Native" cultural consultant was a White conman is the icing on this cake.
she not so smart, work with Starfleet and the people who were spying on and no well enough ot a bunh of total stranger jackasses who treat women like crap?
The sole reason I fell in love with this series is because they use Tuvok, the best Vulcan in all of Star Trek. So it's always good to see Voyager itself get some notice.
Seska should have posed as someone who was genetically and mentally altered; when Kira was captured by Carasians and told she was actually a OO operative, they said that sometimes their conditioning takes a while to undo.
![[FULL] RETROSPECTIVE : Final Fantasy Tactics](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/RUBmYqs1jZ0/mqdefault.jpg)
![[FULL] RETROSPECTIVE : Final Fantasy Tactics](/img/tr.png)
Who's next?
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1. Viggo Tarasov (John Wick)
2. The Wet Bandits (Home Alone 1 & 2)
3. Ingen (Jurassic Park franchise)
4. Steppenwolf (Justice League)
5. Ultron (Avengers: Age of Ultron)
If you have a suggestion for a different contender, please leave it in the comments below!
My suggestions:
•Slade, _Teen Titans_ (2003)
•The Skekses, _The Dark Crystal_ (1982), _TDC: Age of Resistance_ (2019)
As for Advanced Sci-Fi Civs, I thought you could give these a run for their money:
•Time Lords, _Doctor Who_
•Children of Tama, _Star Trek_
•Oceania, _Nineteen Eighty-Four_ (1984)
3 there the dumbest one there no question
Another suggestion:
The machines in The Matrix
🤣 LMAO "Borg choke"
After so many Tuvok clips, we finally visit his show
I'm surprised that seska and dukat didn't hook up. lol
I can't find a good compilation of all of tuvok's snarks
@@missinginaction2b They would've made the most evil little lizard babies.
@Watzetzface Annorax would get SHREDDED. That guy's mistakes are many, are _Legion_.
@@drakejohnson5386 you don't need one.. just watch mediazealot 😂😂
The Kazons deserve their own episode of "villains too stupid."
Amen. Their culture probably nuked itself to the stone age for eons before finally a handful of non-Kazon Kazons made it to the stars and their OG culture, like returning cancer, resurfaced in their species.
yeah theyre like oompa loompas
Ghetto klingons. Wait no, thats nauseating nausicans.
No, the kazon are just... ghetto terrans.
Agreed.
@@Etaoinshrdlu69 They were suppose to be a representation of street gangs that dominated California in the 90's it backfired so hard tough.
Seska's rank isn't inconsistent, Janeway just promotes her every other week in front of Harry Kim to mock him for never outranking ensign.
perfect lol
New head cannon added
O
M
G
XD
😂
We are talking about someone who traveled back in time to risk empowering the Borg in order to keep Harry from becoming a captain, so that makes sense
The video is longer than the total amount of screen time Seska had in the series
Thank goodness for Tuvok. Enough clips of him can make miracles happen!
@@Flaris tuvok is straight up one of the best things about that show shame like many characters is ignored and not explored more granted he is a great Vulcan.
@christian langdon the Vulcans have been explored to death already, we've seen their homeworld, culture, education, social living qualities, histories, futures everything, so what exactly did the show ignore whennit came to Tuvok?
Voyager was an ensemble show, sure it had a a couple of obvious leads, but the rest of the cast got plenty of screen time, story arc devotion & personal plot points, Tuvok was explored & expanded upon consistently every season
@@jimreaper1337 I'm not disagreeing vulcans are really well expanded on but that's not to say you couldn't yave different cultures within them or whatnot. That's like saying humans shouldn't be included becouse we have explored them before. That's not really the point. And it's fair to say that despite some great characters voyager is probably the weakest at actually expanding their character in real ways. It's like ds9 or next generation where each character really grows each time and the effects of their episodes are felt through the series. The biggest ones we get in Voyager is who is dating who.
Tuvok remains not well developed by many say the same of Kim, parish and others the only well and fully developed characters in Voyager is jainway, seven and the doctor. All of whom get major series of episodes that alone make the rest of the other cast episodes fit within a less than a season.
@christian langdon right so in a Space Opera about a human spaceship, in a human led federation & on human adventures, you want to see the History Channels version of Vulcans
I mean sure a deeper dive could be done, but not during a Star Trek TNG/Voyager series run, maybe something along the lines of a limited run series set on Vulcan with a devent overarching plot & comolex characters could work but then that's not Star Trek is it
Tuvok was explored man, he had specific story arcs, he went from a Marquee infiltrator to Security Chief, he de-evolved for a time, he was always runnjng covert operations & investigations and over time grew a strong friendship with Nelix, he was explored almost as much as Janeway and infinity more so than Chakotey
It's an ensemble show, that's how they work, you can't have a show where 15 people are all playing the lead
Go back and re-watch the Voyager series it's not held up the greatest, but it's better than whats trying to pass for Star Trek right now, you'll also see how that show fleshed out their characters as best they could being as it was basically them on a submarine for 5 years 🖖
The Seska arc could best be summarized as: psycho stalks her ex around the delta quadrant
she boiled
NEELIX
I mean the bunny
🐰
And she'd break up with him after a few weeks if they got together.
"Delete the wife" has to be one of the most hilarious Voyager clips out of context.
JANEWAY
was sinister in that
moment
"Im afraid"
"I KNOOOWW"
-Evil killer Janeway
Admittedly, Seska's betrayal did lead to one of Chakotay's best lines. I'm paraphrasing, but I remember him saying to Tuvok about the Maquis: "You were working for Starfleet... she was working for the Cardassians... was there anyone in the crew who was working for ME?"
O
M
G
XD
That is my favorite moment from him.
As someone who supervises questionable people at work...........that was a classic line.
@@eugeneflorence4355 ...So what do you do for a living?
ahh yeah Taurus was loyal
I have an explanation for Seska's sloppiness: she may be a spy but she might not be a good one. Maybe the Obsidian Order gave her the job of infiltrating a minor Maquis cell because it wasn't that important a mission.
Considering the state of Cardassia, she would be a crappy spy even relative to a shitty agency
The main purpose of the Obsidian Order is to spy on their own population. Garak is the exception, but most of them are not nearly as good as they think they are.
Tain wanted to get rid of her
Considering she was assinged to a garbage skiff being hunted by one of the most advanced Starfleet ships, I don't think she was held in very high regard.
"Project: Busywork"
19:24 "Meanwhile Neelix gets his first confirmed kill and surprisingly it wasn´t from Leola root poisoning."
Omg. This is just gold! XD
Will we ever get a Heroes too Stupid to Win series?
There is 1 episode
@@kingofflamingos4344 Ah. I wasn't aware. Thank you.
you mean...all of them?
The autobots were part of a two part series about the Transformers being too stupid to exist.
season 1 Janeway would deserve a mention.
When B'Elanna of all people is advising someone to "cool down" before they get themselves into trouble they really should immediately realise they really are too hot headed. Also, when a Borg drone is more willing to co-operate with Starfleet rather than assimilate them, that should be a wake up call. But no, not for Seska. She could not take even clearly helpful advice let alone constructive criticism.
Best Line ever heard in Star Trek voyager. 7 of 9 stated THE BORG know of the Kazon but the Kazon offer no value in assimilation. Harsh!
I do like the Kazon leaving on board the worst possible person imaginable - the terrifying serial killer who is trying to give up the habit.
If memory serves correct, they didn't realize he was there until he started making like a gardener and pruning the weeds.
Yeah, as people to miss in the shuffle goes, the highly experienced guerrilla fighter and serial killer would not be my first choice. Even if Suder wasn't trying to redeem himself by helping, having a man who previously killed someone for looking at him funny crawling around the bowels of the ship is not going to be helpful, especially if the urge to kill comes upon him again (especially since we have ample evidence that Suder has FAR great combat skills than any Kazon).
@@JamesTobiasStewart that's like leaving Garak behind on DS9. Only Garak would have probably found a way to survive and convince everyone the Doctor actually DID do it. Knowing the EMH eh would go for it and use it to pressure people to observe their food plan recommendations.
I also wonder how, in Worst Case Scenario, if the holographic BAJORAN mutineers would react to being told that they were following a CARDASSIAN.
I'm still trying to figure out why a Maquis member Michael Jonas was so eager to follow a cardassian. She was literally the enemy.
It would not be the first time.
Remember when in deep space 9 the Bajoran supremacist were armed by the Cardassians in order to get rid of the federation.
You gotta feel for the actors: "Please! At least make my character competent! If you can't give me some memorable lines or scenes at least don't make me a joke!"
"The good news is we've thought up some character development for you. The bad news is we're instead giving it all to the hot chick in the catsuit."
Since it's been years I can't quite remember but wasn't that the reason Denise Crosby left? Hardly any development or lines.
Yeah, I never really got Seska’s motivation in the show. She was supposed to be a Cardassian spy infiltrating the Maquis, likely in an attempt to take them down from within. I get she was p*ssed about Janeway basically stranding them all in the Delta Quadrant, but her actions did inadvertently lead to the disillusionment of Chakotay’s Cell, thereby accomplishing Seska’s original mission. Yet, every time, for whatever reason, she always seems to side with or have sympathy for the former-Maquis, even after her cover is blown.
Honestly, her best option would’ve been to come clean with Starfleet from the beginning. I mean, Tuvok was already a spy just like her with a similar mission, and at the time of Voyager’s abduction, there were technically no open hostilities between the Federation and Cardassia. Hell, as a “representative of the Cardassian Union” or something, she might’ve gotten herself an honorary seat as part of the Command Crew, giving her some say in how the ship is run. Neelix got one, and he was just the cook.
This is actually a good point. Remember Voyager's mission was anti-Maquis operations that were probably to be done in concert with any Cardassian ships encountered. While I can see her wanting to keep her status on the downlow from the majority of the crew, and especially other Marquis ops, there really is no reason to keep her status from Janeway. Unless she wants to snag everything she can about the Intrepid class. But even then, she really goes about her business in the worse way possible. I agree with the video, it's like she's TRYING to get caught.
STEVEN SEAGAL
was just the ship's cook
&
look what he did
Neelix was given the job of ambassador because he was the only one on the entire ship who knew anything about the Delta Quadrant. His position was not just honorary, it was pretty damn important and useful in establishing which species to avoid the most and which were helpful.
Seska is a former spy, and has no agency on the ship even being a cardassian representative. She should have revealed it, but it wasn't like she'd be given command crew status without any real skills to put to use, and a spy would just be another soldier under Tuvok's command.
@@danbuckig4564 - Neelix’s position was important in theory. In practice, it was evident by like episode 3 that he was next to useless as an “ambassador”. Hell, there was a whole episode where he pretended to betray the crew or something to try and get some info about the region they were going into because he admitted that Voyager had hit the point that he now had zero clue about any of the people or places they were going to encounter. He was literally just the cook and “morale officer” at that point.
These sorts of villains always kind of bug me. She kind of threw away her inital motivation as a mere spy to become some evil nutjob who constantly betrayed everyone and caused tons of conflict for little other reason beyond "just in it for the evulz". I think she actually hurt her cause more than helped it since she made enemies of several species in the Delta Quadrant while also causing conflict with the Federation when she could have established relationships with locals and created allies for the Cardassians to turn into a foothold in the Delta Quadrant. There's a reason why so many "first contact" stories usually at least try to establish a good relationship, usually through gifts or trade, rather than starting off with conflict: a small scuffle can result in permanent bad relations with the faction or civilization as a whole. The Soviets initially had no real cause to hate the US but spent the interwar years and WW2 distrustful of the US for trying to support the White Russians in the Russian Civil War (the Bolsheviks and later Soviets enemy), a few small battles soured relations and they never really improved and it helped spurn the communists away from trying to export communism to the world and focus on just Russia/USSR at first.
She is a woman and they are built differently from men.
@@dansmith1661 Spoken like a true Kazon.
No she was completely disconnected from her empire which shook her loyalty which is perhaps the most fundamental character trait for a spy.
The Kazon are so dumb the Borg won't assimilate them!
That´s literally canon I remember 7 telling Neelix that
Never realised, but yes, Seska deserved her own episode. She's underrated.
She deserved more in general. The actress was good, the character had potential... but they Voyager'd everything up... shame.
@@planescaped I'm actualy satisfied how the show turned out all in all. Would not change a thing. MAybe lessen the Unimatrix Zero romantic fluff, cut a bit from the Year of Doom, and adjust some details in the final season, but generaly, I'm satisfied, and ST:V is probably the best of the franchise.
We need more Voyager villians just so we can have more Tuvok-heavy episodes. The Borg have to be on the list. Heck the Borg are so dumb they might need more than one episode.
@@AmityvilleFan i would had made the plots and characters more consistent. Which was one of is biggest failing when you watch episode back to back.
@@Marveryn You can laways improve on the minor things, but that's my point: those are minor things. The show overall is a good show, unlike certain TNG.
On Seska's work with Jonas: let's not forget her scheme was accidentally exposed by Neelix, of all people. How incompetent does one have to be to get caught by that guy of all people?
Seven was always most badass in Borg Drone mode. Recalling a scene in "Living Witness":
Badass Janeway: "You always want to expand your shock troops. Assimilate them."
Badass Seven: "Understood."
Agreed. It was a shame they got her out of the borg suit so early because they wanted Ryan as a sex object. Her physical transition occurring alongside her emotional journey would have been a much more effective way of going about it.
Have her combat implants removed forcably as part of the compromise to take her alive, but have the Doctor effectively put his foot down on the medical ethics of operating on a patient without their consent for anything more. Then you gradually remove implants little by little as they either break down without maintenance Voyager is too primitive to provide, or Seven herself decides she has a problem with because of the way their presence is separating her from the crew and leaving her in the worst emotional state someone raised Borg can feel, lonely.
You know, put it like that, I think it would've been interesting to have Seska, as a Cardassian, as part of the crew. It's the more pragmatic choice to make, so that's what she should have gone with. But no. They were so *desperate* to make the Kazon a threat, have some kind of villain capable of fairly matching the crew that they used her in the dumbest way possible.
One of the biggest mistakes they made early on was having Voyager seemingly be a good 100 years ahead of everyone else in terms of technology. When the Kazon lacked technology that was commonplace on Kirk's Enterprise, then they were never going to be much of a threat. Making them bargain-bin Klingons with a little Ferengi misogyny mixed in also didn't help to differentiate them as a species.
They should have dumped Voyager into a wild west environment, surrounded by hostile - and technologically competent - aliens. Imagine the show if its first two seasons had them completely unsure which way to turn because there were ruthless killers in all directions. It would have made Neelix more useful too, particularly if he was equally as grizzled and battle-hardened as everyone else, instead of being a comedy ferret.
@@Helbore The fact they basically sailed with little to no repairs was a big mistake as well due to their high technology. They basically couldn't trust any space dock for repairs, meaning they never got any dmg they couldn't fix themselves for the most part. Compare that to the Enterprise or any other Star Trek ship which often had to get full repairs after every major battle.
Essentially they never had any fears other than crew members dying, usually because they bothered to stop and smell the roses.
I'm glad you chose to cover Seska, as I am a HUGE Voyager fan, and she had potential right up until they wasted her.
Having a recurring villain in Voyager is a massive problem, because the ship ins constantly travelling in a straight direction. It was much easier in Deep Space 9, because a station is not going anywhere; it is in the description.
@@schwarzerritter5724 True, and that's part of the waste. They should never have written her off the ship, and she actually would have made a brilliant antihero character.
@@antonsimmons8519 Kind of what Discovery is attempting with Georgiou.
She could have been a female version of Garak
@@Neil070 That would have been AMAZING. Honestly, it seemed like she was being set up to become that, at first...
I always thought Seska as a main member of the crew had so much more potential than just making her a useless, throwaway villain.
She could've been the one who did the wetwork the federation was too cowardly to do in order to get them home. Have her spend half her time stuck in the brig, the other half screwing over aliens in order to get them home quicker. Maybe give her a redemption arc over the course of the series.
But I forget, Voyager had a severe aversion to long term storytelling and continuity. >__>
That's pretty much how I sum up voyager in general, as so much wasted potential.
I feel the same way about Sudor when it comes to wasted potential. They were certainly more compelling characters than Harry Kim, that’s for sure.
Seska as Voyager's version of Garak would have been nothing short of epic.
@@aguysomewhere8277 "That's why you came to me, isn't it Janeway? Because you knew that I could do those things that you weren't capable of doing. Well it worked, and you'll get what you want. A war between the Krenim Imperium and the Borg. And if your conscience is bothering you, you should soothe it with the knowledge that you may have just saved the entire Delta Quadrant."
- Plain Simple Seska
@@aguysomewhere8277 I did basically just describe Garak didn't I? XD
Still, I'd have been happy with more Garak. Especially since Garak was never really a bad guy/villain, where Seska was. A villain who helps them that they don't want to, but are stuck with sounds like a fun setup for story ideas. And coming up for a reason why they have to keep her around wouldn't be too hard. Maybe she sabotaged the biogel and it requires her/Cardassian DNA to run.
She should have just waited a few years, Janeway throws the federation rulebook out the airlock.
Fuck yeah she does
Yah after the timeskip
I'm reminded of Rick and Shane from The Walking Dead.
Rick telling Shane he can't do the bad stuff he's been doing because they need to be better then that, ultimately leading to Shane's demise, only for Rick to eventually turn into him anyway.
All that “no longer human” crap really dropped like a brick once reality smacked their silly ideology in its face
I will defend Janeway's decision to destroy the Array. That thing killed a third of the crew when it was fully functional and had someone with centuries of experience running it. I doubt that thing would be less likely to scatter their molecules across the galaxy with them trying to get it up and running under battlefield conditions and after a starship crashed into it (and add in Tuvok's line that I am convinced was added after they originally finished filming that it would take hours to boot up).
The only way to use the Array would have been to negotiate with the Kazon and likely leave it in their hands.
The Caretaker was already dying, so like 50% functional.
SF Debris listed a few different things they could've done.
My favorite was leave behind a photon or quantum torpedo on a timer to blow the thing up after using it.
@@planescaped How would that help? They would need to 1. Figure out how to activate the Array. 2. Do so under battlefield conditions. 3. Hold the Array for the several hours it would take to activate as per Tuvok's statement. 4. Hold it while having a damaged ship and while being severely outnumbered. 5. Hold it while the Kazon were bringing in reinforcements. 6. Fix whatever damage the Array suffered when a Kazon ship crashed into it, while under attack. A photon torpedo on a timer would not give them the fighting capability to do any of that, nor fix the damaged Array.
Edit: Plus, it doesn't address the "killed a third of the crew when it was used by someone with centuries of experience" concern.
I slogged my way through the first few seasons of Voyager and it does get better around season 4. The Kazon stop showing up after season 3 iirc which was great 👍. Tuvok and the doctor are such great characters and honestly Neelix isnt as bad as the amount of hate he gets.
That episode with Brad Dourif is one of the few good early episodes.
People dont like Neelix? as a kid i always found him endearing.
The kazon stop appearing after the season 3 opener (Basics part 2), and my issue with Neelix is that he was grossly misused in his role. Having a crew member who is a travelled local is an excellent idea. Making him the comic-relief fuckup isn’t.
@@goldengolem4670 He was utterly despised by a large portion of the fanbase.
And yeah, Voyager had a lot of great stories, characters and ideas. the problem with the show was that they had no real respect for continuity outside of a few instances (Year of Hell teaser, Tom and B'lanna getting together) and no long term story-telling or plans for the show. It had a ton of potential, but they never really did enough with it.
Dourif is stellar in this show. I haven’t seen the episodes in almost a decade but I still remember his arc being one of the few in Voyager that worked for me.
Brad Dourif also played a somewhat similar character in Babylon 5. Also brilliantly played.
What Star Trek Voyager SHOULD have been is the Battlestar Galactica reboot. It should have been constantly under attack whilst low on supplies and surrounded by enemies at every turn. But it wasn't. It was a show with a supremely powerful reset button and scripts that felt as if they were ripped straight from The Next Generation. Had we gotten the ''Voyager'' that we should have had, Seska's suggestion to ally with the Kazon for protection and to play lose with Starfleet's almighty principles actually would have been a sound move. As would her decision to betray Voyager, as it legitimately would have looked to her as if she was on the losing side. TL;DR, Voyager was wasted potential incarnate.
That really should have been the marquis crew members shtick in general. To be the guys operating in the gray areas and counterpoint to the federation goody two shoes approach . Kind of thought that was the point of setting that up but instead the blended crews were indistinguishable from each other a few episodes in.
yeah it was just Star Trek: The Next Generation: Delta Edition and with a slightly weaker cast (chakotay and kim are especially bad characters).
No, it should’ve been like the grossly underrated Stargate Universe, where the crew is the victim of circumstances rather than malevolent forces out to get them.
Fun fact: Ronald D Moore himself confirmed in one of the post-episode podcasts he did during the BSG reboot that Voyager was indeed intended to have a tone more reminiscent of BSG (which he wanted to finally realize when he joined the main production staff at the start of Season 6 after finishing up DS9), but studio meddling, along with some drama that went down with Brannon Braga prevented that from ever happening.
Keep in mind Voyager is nearly a decade older than the reimagined Battlestar Galactica. At the time when Voyager was created, episodic shows with no real progression or overarching story were firmly the norm. Even The X-Files and Babylon 5, shows known for their story arcs, just started a year or so earlier and were still focused on episodic storytelling in most of their episodes.
Love the channel and series, you’re doing great. Would love to see you do the stargate goa'uld
Yes! I remember watching SG1(love it) and thinking these baddies are so goofy 😂
The only competent of them Was Ba' al and even he lost sight of his goals from time to time.
Alt strategy: Come clean, reveal your real skills, rank, and cold harsh opinions - and effectively become Seven of Nine several seasons early.
A Token Evil team mate would have been so much more fun than the Fem Fetale nonsense we got.
I fucking lost it when you called him chipotle. Love these videos.
her stupidity is really a product of bad writing, as no one would do the things she did, if the writers had thought logically.
The Kazons secretly have better warp technology than Starfleet. In one hour they managed to travel further than it took Voyager to travel in 2 years.
Yeah that was always a strange design decision.
Even if we assume that Janeway stops at ever interesting looking rock, the Kazon are still traveling further and further from they center of power.
And its a small faction, they should not be able to affort this for long, even with replicator.
"PEAK Drone Seven of Nine" 😂😂😂😂 Perfect. Seven just walks in, no sells the phaser fire and Wayne Brady's the bitch.
One theory I've seen as to why Seska behaved so ridiculously is that she was suffering from a mental condition. While she was infiltrating the Maquis in the Alpha Quadrant, she had relatively easy access to the Cardassian medicine she needed to manage her condition, but once Voyager became stranded, she was unable to duplicate it and became more and more irrational... or more likely after they failed to get the Sikarian portal tech to work she just panicked because as a Cardassian spy aboard a ship where a quarter of the crew are Maquis who would probably want to kill her
am going she just flip. She spent years of undercover being someone she wasn't and then have the situation in the delta happen. So mentally she may not had been completely stable as she had suffer a breakdown.
I think this is just how cardassians slow they are interested in each other.
For caradassians I'm pretty sure you are not considered in a serious relationship until you have betrayed your paramour 3 or 4 times.
I totally forgot Brad douriff was on voyager. F*cking legend.
We needed a One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest episode with other Trek actors, Dourif, Louise Fletcher, Christopher Lloyd and Vincent Schiavelli
oh, forgot Michael Berryman
I always felt that Seska was a major flaw in the world of trek I mean she should be near the same level as Garak for such an important mission yet is genuinely the worst secret agent of any franchise...
You could pit her against Johnny English on cardassia prime and she would still lose.
Putting a timed explosive on the CareTakers Array would have been a smart move, activate the Array create a worm hole transport a timed explosive into the Array counting down by T minus 5 minutes so that the worm hole doesn’t collapse on to your starship.
Yes the Kazon are sexist idiots so putting a timed explosive on the Array wouldn’t have been a problem.
yeah but everyone on voyager was stupid
@@Shruikin agreed
I imagine Tuvok thinking of this 2 nights later and thinking fuck me.
Federation Ships are always getting hijacked and I’m pretty sure the USS Voyager got hijacked 4 times though out the series.
Federation Ships seem easy to hijack something you should talk about.
I love that I found your content. Please eventually cover Delos, and it's successor companies from Westworld when you have the time and motivation.
Isn't that whole show pretty much a musing on why they suck?
@@user-zh4vo1kw1z you're not wrong at all. I just enjoy listening to Media Zealot take raw stupidity to task.
The main Seska plot hole was that when Cardasians deployed their Bejoran looking spies, they weren't supposed to know they're spies!
Yes one of my favorite DS9 episodes !
Would anyone want the kazon to have that ability to rraid any part of the galaxy at will just to return to that Caretaker array? I would have destroyed it myself. That a nightmare after a few seconds consideration.
She jumped at the first ally learning nothing of the surrounding players. The Kazon are aggressive and nomadic winners?
Re: Shattered.
Damn Seska, you know your plan is shit when even the Borg think its a bad idea. If it were even remotely viable, the drones in the cargo bay would've totally tried it.
5:00 When Be'lanna is the one having to tell you to calm down you've seriously gone off the reservation!
Note that the Doctor doesn't even deny that he can lie, only that he doesn't have much experience with "bare-faced lying". This is a true statement but it's intentionally misleading and thus not "bald faced lying". He actually lampshades how he can shade the truth by making a statement that could be shading the truth, and she doesn't get it. This is an intelligence officer.
I always love how you do your scripts. The humor and seriousness works so well. I always enjoy these videos.
I always loved the line from when Seska was outted as a Cardassian, 'If we were on a Cardassian ship, we would be home now'. I doubt that the Cardassians would have faired better against the bargin basement Klingons, sorry I mean Kazon, then Voyager did. They wouldn't have destroyed the Caretaker's array but also would have cut an run leaving it to the Kazon which would have meant the same journey as Voyager just without the exploring part.
Suder's arc is my favorite thing in all of Voyager
The father of that one Cardassian girl who was used as an ultra deep cover spy seemed like a decent person at the end of the day
Always loved Voyager. Great to see it here! Need moarrrr.
I hadn't thought of it much before, but yeah, I tend to agree. When watching for the first time when I was around 13, I did wonder why making an alliance with a species you'll soon leave behind was particularly sensible. I mean sure, tomorrow doesn't matter much if you won't live through the day, but leaving the ship seemed excessive.
If all the Vulcan’s from every Star Trek show talked to each other as war strategists, I don’t know if I will be bored because they speak like robots, or excited to hear them talk because they will out logic each other
This breakdown really shows what an opportunity the writers of Voyager missed with Seska. Just imagine her as part of the main cast filling in a Garek type role.
Who is Garek? Elims brother?
Garak, haven't spelled the character's name for in ages.
they should had keep her in the ship as a prisoner who janeway could go do and shoot ideas with when she found a problem that star fleet principal couldn't solve.
Garek is that lady cardassian that hits on Doctor Bashir in the cafeteria during the first episode
Please refrain from comparing the subclass trash that is Seska to the excellence that is Garak. Don't do my man dirty like that. He deserves better.
Haven't seen Voyager, but from what I've heard, everyone's favorite part was when Tuvok said "It's Tuvokin' time!" and Tuvoked all over the Kazon.
Voyager is an acid trip. Cosmic horror is a running theme.
@@613aristocrat That's not the kind of acid trip I have in mind when thinking of Voyager. More of a goofy "what even are numbers" kind of trip. Now DS9? Sure
As always, I commend your comprehensive library of Tuvok clips; it's a bit on the nose this time, but oh well.
People don’t realize how funny Voyager actually is.
Exactly the point.
Seska's storyline was wasted. I always felt that season 1 should have had more tension between both the crews, sadly after Torres became Chief Engineer the Marquis just said "Ok, we cool".
Seska could have stayed on Voyager longer while trying to keep the crews separate, causing rifts between the senior officers.
Plus I always thought it was funny that the first time we see her she is in a blue (science/medical) uniform then suddenly she is in the Gold uniform.
One thing about Voyger was it lacked a good villain. Seriously for how many episodes Seska turned up in she was always a disappointment.
To be honest Voyager's main problem would probably be the constant suicides
Tbf it was pretty meme-worthy how every single time they see a new nebula or anomaly the Voyager just rams into it face first to get into more life-threatening situations.
Not that TNG was any better about that.
I think it would have been interesting. If while seska was on the ship small random things would break. And they find out after she leaves voyager. she was just breaking things randomly to be a pain.
I think Seska is the living embodiment of all the wasted potential and missed opportunities of Voyager.
The Vast Majority of Villains are too stupid to win to be honest. That's because few are fleshed out beyond BAD GUY! And additional perspective makes them sympathetic. In TNG the Ferengi were incredibly stupid. In DS9 however? Wow! A whole species with incredible depth and knowledge including a religion and their own completely separate mindset that is distinct and while not completely agreeable with humans is still distinctive and sensible in it's own way.
In other words, compare the random Ferengi in TNG to Quark. One's a villain to stupid to win and the other is a VERY compelling character, and the only difference is that we have so much time with Quark.
That's true. I assume the list is about the more egregious cases.
She really should have just come clean, she would have had a chance to be accepted, I know part of what forced her evil sooner was the Doctor going "Hey you never came for your bloodwork" thing, which never made any sense to me as simple transporter pattern or scan for life signs should have shown her for what she was from day 0....
Her best bet would have been to just have a word with Janeway, and explain her need to be left on a populated world. If she stayed on board sooner or later she’d get knocked up, and have to explain why the kid looks Cardassian.
The best description of Janeway I’ve heard so far “one of this annoying Federation types” 1:00 😂On that note I suggest a companion series titled “Heroes so stupid they don’t deserve to win”
Most unbelievable part is her being able to weaponize her sexuality
How high are you standards? She is decently hot.
You say that but you would certainly smash
Who would have thought that a patriarchy FOR NO REASON, is distrustful of women, ends up believing a woman and meets its downfall.
the clip with Quark just cracks me up :D
Seska had a lot of potential and yet she was wasted and her way of doing things didn't help her out neither.
Here are a few suggestions for the next video:
-NFFA from the Purge franchise
-Handsome Jack from the Borderlands video game franchise
The genius of brennon braga on display lol
Uh, Neelix is actually a badass with military experience
Yes. He's got skills. Not to be underestimated.
You seem to be forgetting Neelix admitted he never reported for duty; he dodged the draft. You can still decide he's a badass If you'd like, but he never saw combat. He did assist in the cleanup after the metreon cascade.
What if the tale the Obsidian Order spun about Ilyana Gemor in DS9: Second Skin was partially true for Seska?
While the Obsidian Order was making things up when they pretended Kira was Ilyana Gemor, they must have told enough truth to convince legate Gemor who knew something about the transformation.
So it is possible that Seska didn't even properly know she was a cardassian sleeping agent until her true form started reemerging. Until then, she was programmed to act as a rebellious bajoran, on the side of Maquis and against the Federation.
When she realized she was in fact a Cardassian herself, her programming clashed with who she truly was and she went insane from the cognitive dissonance.
27:17 Hence my theory. When she was messing with Tuvok's program, she did not yet know she was Cardassian. As far as she knew, she was a zealous Maqui.
There is the question of how the OO intended to retrieve information from these agents. They would have to capture her to restore her true memories and loyalty. But that would be ridiculously risky.
Seska didn't make anysense tbh, like a better story would she would be a cardassian spy, she tries to destroy voyager but kinda hesitates because she has come to love the crew, but is conflicted with being a cardassian spy and angry at Janeway but then after a cool episode and lots of emotion surrenders then has to build trust up with the crew all over again but developing her into a cool character
you can never have enough Tuvok.
In the next "Villains Too Stupid to Win", How about Senator Blake Denton from the movie "Antebellum".
Seska and Culluh were my favorite voyager villains. Dukat is the best all time villain ever created
As ever, DS9 did it better, with the “Cardassian spy disguised as Bajoran” bit in “Second Skin.” All Voyagers best plots were stolen from better shows.
Eventually Seska's blood would be tested, and they'd learn the truth no matter what.
She either had to tell them the truth, or act. She made her choice
they probably would have been mad at her for an episode then promoted her above harry anyway
@@Shruikin I agree. There would have been the typical moral handringing the Federation types love to do, then they'd all hug and move on.
Seska just doesn't make sense. Even if her plans worked she'd either be stuck with the Kazon or stuck on Voyager after clearly killing Tuvok
Great as always, You should do The Reapers from Mass Effect if you are inclined, Great content as always.
A key part like many the "Too Stupid to Win" video's is Seksa kind of lacks a real defined goal. In theory she wants to get back to the Alpha Quadrant, but where? She would be a failed spy returning if she went back to the Obsidian Order. Unless she kept her cover the entire time in the Delta Quadrant she wouldn't be able to remain in place as a spy either. Never mind if it took years said conflict could be over one way or the other. Or people just lose trust, "freedom fighters" which are often a lose collection of cells don't exactly welcome long lost members who mysteriously appear.
She should have stayed as a Romulans on the Defiant, they would have given her a much more interesting character arc.
And the Kazons were such a big missed opportunity. The premise behind them was interesting, they were a slave race who revolted against their masters but became even more cruel than their former masters. Since the Kazons didn't develop their technology, they should have had them use their technology in reckless and dangerous ways. They could have been used to show just how powerful and dangerous all that advanced 24th century technology is when put in the wrong hands.
Suder's a recovering serial killer, though. They have excellent reason for not putting him into combat situations.
Ah, one of my favorite series on YT ever! Thanks for another hilarious video showing just how brilliant all the people who wrote these things are. 😂
Considering her situation, Seska would've been better off just going all in on being a member of the Voyager crew, doubly so since the Cardasians and their Dominion allies lost the war by the time they were close to home.
Hell, most of the Voyager crew were better off in the Delta Quadrant compared to fighting in the Dominion War. Except probably Suder. I have a feeling he would've been invaluable in the defense of Betazed.
Would've been nice having more non-human, non-federation characters on the ship. The marquis were supposed to be guerilla's, but they almost never touched on that outside of season 1, and even then, it was barely a thing.
They gave us Neelix... who was far cooler in his conceptualization than execution(original storyboards had him as more of a Han Solo type, hence why Neelix's character is a lot different in the pilot than in other episodes). And then we got Seven. At least she was good...
@@planescaped
Neelix would have been far better if the writers had doubled down on him being a competent ship captain, trader and negotiator. Instead they went with chef and wide-eyed jr. crew member. Neelix as semi-Ferengi would have been cool. Too bad.
She was Nietzschean. Star Trek actually had the balls to portray fascists correctly in their show so I'm not surprised typical American bullshit fed idiots can't understand her.
Another great episode, thank you for making this!
In my watchthrough of VOY I completely forgot about seska
1:00 - To be fair, considering how many died on the journey over there, how many would actually have survived the trip back?
The snark man is back. Brilliant channel. 👏
I thought the main villain of Voyager was... Voyager. 😕
The main villain of Voyager was the enemies we made along the way
@@RaidoactiveBoy 🤣🤣
So a Mexican guy pretending to be Native American? Technically, Mexicans and Hispanics in general are Native Americans, or at least of Native descent (usually Mayan or Nahuatl). The Polynesian (I'm guessing Maori) tattoo is a different issue and could be construed as cultural appropriation. The fact that the "Native" cultural consultant was a White conman is the icing on this cake.
9:27 captions include him saying thank you despite nothing lol
Also every time the kazon are mentioned it is spelled differently
I remember her. Even when the show was airing for the first time I was like "????"
(Also, love your work, it's always fun :)
she not so smart, work with Starfleet and the people who were spying on and no well enough ot a bunh of total stranger jackasses who treat women like crap?
The sole reason I fell in love with this series is because they use Tuvok, the best Vulcan in all of Star Trek. So it's always good to see Voyager itself get some notice.
Aparently the Kazon are so unremarkable the Borg haven't attacked them because they're considered unwothy of assimilation.
And yet Tribbles are ok for the Borg. Really tells you a lot about the Kazon.
@@Ty-ie2mi Borg Tribbles?????
At least Star Trek Voyager is far more watchable than anything from Star Trek since 2009 with Bad Robot and Secret Hideout.
To be fair, the Doctor's statement that he "doesn't have much experience with bald-faced lying and calculated deceit" is 100% true.
I don't blame Janeway for destroying the Array. She wasn't thinking about the rules. She was thinking about the Ocampa.
Seska should have posed as someone who was genetically and mentally altered; when Kira was captured by Carasians and told she was actually a OO operative, they said that sometimes their conditioning takes a while to undo.