Debunking Sonic's "Rough Transition to 3D"
Вставка
- Опубліковано 7 кві 2023
- Long wait, longest video on my channel, today I will be talking about the phrase "Sonic had a rough transition to 3D", oh and also somewhere in there I go on a rant about big the cat or something idk hope you guys enjoy.
join my discord: / discord
stay updated on my twitter: / stryxo
i sometimes stream on twitch: / stryxo
Cybershell video: • Why Sonic Adventure DX...
Dreamcast conversion mod: www.moddb.com/mods/sadx-dream...
Dreamcastify website: dreamcastify.unreliable.network/
Hey guys, stop me if you’ve heard this one before, Sonic has had a rough transition to 3D. This single statement follows the Sonic Franchise everywhere it goes. It’s a statement that’s considered gaming fact at this point, alongside phrases like “Valve can’t count three”, or “Bethesda games are buggy am I right”, or even that “EA is just the worst”.
And to be entirely honest, it’s not like this statement came out of nowhere. If you bought Sonic Adventure today to play on any modern console or computer, you’d probably agree with me if I said this game doesn’t look like it’s aged well. I think almost everyone can agree that Sonic Adventure 2 is a good game, and holds up well for the most part. But beginning with Sonic Heroes, and continuing through games like Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic 06, Sonic and the Secret Rings, Sonic Unleashed, Sonic and the Black Knight, there’s a pattern here of releases that weren’t exactly well received..
However as we’ve moved away from the mid-late 2000’s and a new wave of Sonic fans have come to dominate the discourse surrounding the franchise, a pretty common thing I’ve seen said is now, is that the phrase, “Sonic has had a rough transition to 3D”, is just completely false. A sort of revisionist tale that’s come about because of inaccurate journalism and Sonic’s reputation as a franchise throughout the mid-late 2000’s. I can understand people coming to this conclusion, it’s no secret that the Sonic Fanbase and Video Game Reviewers don’t really see eye to eye on the general opinion of games in the franchise.
So which story is accurate? Were the reviewers, and companies like IGN or Gamespot accurate about “Sonic having a rough transition to 3d”, or were they wrong? Are Sonic fans correct in saying that critics have spun a revisionist tale to discredit sonic as a franchise? That’s what I’ve decided to answer with this video, by making Sonic’s transition to 3D myself. I’ve played Sonic 1-3 & knuckles, and Sonic adventure 1 and 2 to give my own definitive opinion.
So let’s set the stage. To understand “the phrase” (i’m already tired of saying it), we need to understand the conditions behind not only how this phrase possibly could have come into being, but also how it could’ve spread around and become so prolific.
So let’s try to make this quick, towards the tail end of the 8-bit era of video games, Nintendo had safely positioned themselves as the king of that era. It’s not like Nintendo developed or published every banger, but Super Mario bros. 1-3, The legend of Zelda, Metroid, Punch-out, that’s already a pretty stacked line up. Then, when you take into account the fact that Nintendo, made the NES, and you look at all the other amazing games that were sold exclusively on that console, a pretty good picture is painted for just how much Nintendo dominated this era.
As the video game industry moved forward, and the 16-bit era of gaming began, Sega released titles on their new console, The Genesis, (also known as the “mega drive” for anyone not in the US) and carved out their own slice of the gaming market in providing an arcade experience on a home console, as their slogan suggested, “We bring the arcade experience home”. This, wasn’t good enough for Sega, they didn’t just want to carve out their slice of the gaming market, they wanted to dominate. Sega was convinced that they had the best product on the market, and they wanted to make sure everyone knew it.
So Sega went to the drawing board, and decided that to dominate this era like Nintendo had done previously, they needed not only a solid platformer on their console, but a mascot, a character that could be pointed to and directly associated with their company. This character needed to not only be the perfect fit for Sega’s plans for a platform game with a strong identity, high speed scrolling, and uneven terrain, but he also needed to embody Sega’s values as a company. This character needed to be cool, up for a challenge, and full of spirit, and this character would be Sonic the Hedgehog. - Ігри
Yo, if you enjoyed the video, consider joining my Discord! We have discussions about my videos there, and also about other things relating to gaming: discord.gg/stryxo
Sega is a bit more basis towards Persona and Yakuza, because Sega wants to mostly make good games that appeal to a Japanese audience. Sonic never sells well in Japan, so Sega is giving Sonic the Call of Duty treatment.
Where's Sonic X-treme? You know, the game Sega spent years on and could never get right, essentially had two different teams on it and was eventually cancelled and doomed the Saturn and eventually contributed to the death of Sega as a console manufacturer altogether?
Of course you like the 3D Sonics more than 2D. You're far too young to have an knowledgeable, first hand opinion on the narrative of the Sonic transition to 3D, mostly because you weren't even born by the time console wasn't even in the console business anymore. Which came first? The _port_ of Sonic Adventure or you? I don't want to persecute you for this, but you simply don't actually know what it was like. Take it from someone who actually lived it; who grew up on Sonic and Mario; someone who actually played every single major game on NES, SNES and Genesis from 91 to 96 as a kid (parents owned a video store, so as a kid with no money, I lived like a king lol); the transition was rough. The Saturn basically didn't exist; you saw Virtua Fighter (2?) and Knights on shelves and no Sonic platformer. There was no flagship game to spend hours in a world. Where was the vast Sonic dystopian cartoon world in video game form? Sonic went from being the second biggest thing in gaming behind Mario to effectively disappearing for 5 years. And at the time in '99, Sonic Adventure was cool, but it was shallow. It was a game you played once and got your fill. It was not Mario 64. The controls were nowhere near as smooth as the last 3-4 years of Nintendo platformers like Banjo and Donkey Kong. Sonic had a weird, 8-way digital feel to him. The game felt on rails but felt like it was on loose rails where you weren't fighting the challenge of the design, you were fighting how the controls interacted with the camera. And that was the good (read: Sonic) parts. That's after 5 years of nothing, when he should have had a 3D game at least 2 years earlier if not 3.
The Sonic transition to 3D was rough. The fact Sonic Adventure on the Dreamcast was the first 3D sonic game is proof of that in itself.
EDIT: You attacked Marble Zone. WTF?
EDIT2: So you acknowledge Sonic X-treme, and then just dismiss that disaster? Clown logic.
The reason why people hate the phrase "Sonic had a rough transition to 3D" is because game journalists use it as an argument to attack *every major game* this franchise had in the last 15 years.
It'll be 2050 and Sonic Generation Neo 3 will come out and journalists will still bring up sonic 06 lmao
@@ORLY911 that will probably be true
@@ORLY911 NEO METAL?!?
No, the reason is that Sonic had no 3D titles on the 32X or Saturn, even though those were 32-Bit consoles. Even worse, people didn't accept Knuckles' Chaotix as the next main series installment (which it was intended to be) and then the Saturn didn't even have any major Sonic game.
I mainly hate it because they say that Adventure 1 was the rough transition when it was critically acclaimed at the time of its release.
I mean at least He had a pretty good transition to Visual Novel genre...
We need more of them
They killed sonic
@@JobiMorkos 😂😂😂
He's dead so we ain't getting more
Lol true. I would genuinely love more exploring the characters more
I don't think people realize that *Sonic Adventure received extremely positive reception* from critics when it released. The DX port was so bad that now everyone thinks "SoNiC hAd A rOuGh TrAnSiTiOn tO 3D."
Yeah , I think that one of Sega's worst mistakes is having the Sonic Adventure games ported to GameCube .
I wish that Sega decided to do a collaboration with Sony to create the Sega Dreamcast 2 .
@@Vrabsher_-Supreme_Perhinther- Sega almost went bankrupt and you think they could have made another console? 💀
@@JmKrokYEver heard of "Starting from scratch" ? 🗡🧐☕
We need to undo the slander sonic has gotten on the “dark ages” game journalists where just using sonic as a punching bag and there crappy insight into the franchise created the bad meta era.
Sonic was always good
@@JmKrokY Well, Microsoft asked SEGA to help them create the OG Xbox. _(allegedly)_ SEGA refused Microsoft's offer. Microsoft created the Xbox anyway.
Fun Fact: It's likely that the rail control bug in Sonic Adventure 2 Battle (GCN/PC) only presented itself due to the fact that it's still technically tuned for the sensitivity and precision of a hall-effect joystick -- standard with the Dreamcast controller. SEGA really was ahead of the curve on that one.
So if I used a controller with hall effect joysticks would the issue disappear? I don't know enough about joysticks but I feel as if using a hall effect joystick on a Windows PC would just make it read as an analogue stick but that's just an assumption.
@@Faizan1631 Of course it'll read as analogue. All control sticks do. But hall effect has no need for deadzones due to how precise it is and how unlikely it is to drift, meaning you have a greater range of control in that stick.
Fun fact: that 9:28 part in metropolis zone is actually an origins/retro engine issue. In the original 1992 release, you just BARELY graze the spikes.
Oh yeah origins gave sonic a jump height increase for some fuckin reason LMAO
@@djroscurro9859 Origins is so disappointing. 😆
Sonic never had a rough transition to 3D - he had a rough transition to third party hardware
that’s not true. he transitioned to the neogeo pocket color pretty well.
@@sam_64 Lmfao was gonna say,
@@sam_64 Nah he translates well to my pc
No he didn't. O6, Unleashed, Frontiers to nameca few.
@@JM57-99 So? They are both still masterpieces.
People should rather talk about how inconsistent Sonic has been, both in gameplay changes with each entry in the series and critical reception. That's something more worth talking about.
That and the fact after Unleashed Sonic Team was just never given much of a budget for their games, even Generations shows its budget in a lot of areas (cutscenes, especially). The success of Frontiers has apparently prompted SEGA to allocate more resources to Sonic Team, so hopefully the inconsistency isn't as prevalent. It's also fair to say they'll probably be making more games like Frontiers or Adventure as Frontiers gets compared to those games a lot, easy to see why, and with them adding the other characters as playable in DLC, does give me a very strong impression they're prototyping for a Adventure reboot or 3.
@@ORLY911 So if budget concerns are a thing, then we can assume more successful Sega IPs like Hatsune Miku and the Yakuza series get a bigger budget in comparison to Sonic Team?
@@doclouis4236 I would imagine, both Hatsune Miku and Yakuza have been on doing very well lately and Yakuza has had a lot of consistent, high quality releases, including remakes. I wouldn't expect the Sonic IP to get a new release every year but there's been talks of work on a 2D game on top of Frontiers (I think one of the directors mentioned it in a Q&A), so they seem to be willing to do more with the IP again, and word of multiple characters as a recurring mention past the Frontiers DLC, does hint to me they have more to work with now.
@@doclouis4236 Ever since Colors Sonic games have been low budget, one reason is that Sega in house wants to make games that appeal to Japan. Sonic games don't do well in Japan, so Hatsume Miku and Yakuza get more budget.
Ever since Sega was bought by Sammy, they been focusing on arcades and pachinko machines.
@@orangeslash1667 But I heard Sega is opting out of the arcade business. Not sure about Pachinko machines, though. Those are still a more lucrative business in Japan much like mobile gaming and Gacha games.
Every time I see SA1's intro, I can't help but feel a wide smile appear on my face.
as a huge Sonic fan, this video is absolutely wonderful! it’s great to see someone recognize how good the Adventure games really are, and how much SEGA fucks their rereleases up. thank you for this :)
Adventure games aren't perfect tho
Thank god i saw this comment almost pulled the "unsubscribe" trigger
@@JmKrokY They may not be perfect,nothing is,even S3&K has it's flaws,but it is sure as hell underpraised and deserves more credit than it gets.
@@JmKrokY did i ever fucking say that
@@Hutch2Much Don't swear 👎🏼
"Gamma had no place to be here in this story"
Gamma fans: 😰🖕
Same with most Amy fans, but probably more aggressive.
Nahh, I agreed with the rest of the video, but the Gamma and Amy slander in this was INSANEE LIKE WHAT THEY DO TO YOU, BRUH?! THEY JUST OUT HERE, TRYING TO LIVE THEIR BEST LIVES AND YOU WANT THEM OUTTA THE GAME?? 😭💀
@@amytheprettyweirdfangirl3786 I know right?
I played SA1 on an emulator and noticed that the controls were true 360 degrees of control. Whereas for some stupid reason, in the DX version, it handles more like stepping intervals of 32 or something. So better than a D-pad that only has 8 intervals of directions but not full range analog.
The reason for that is probably because the game cube had notches at each direction so they decided to save on some complexity of inputs. But what do I know
@@dave7474 And it's really dumb on their part given how advanced the gamecube controller really is, SADX could have controlled so well
@@maxenswlfr1877 nono. The Gamecube controller has indents that dont allow the stick to move a full 360 degrees. Thats why SADX controls the way it does.
@@gamingnubs7628 No. They programmed 8 direction control rather than smooth 360. I tried it out on the PC port of DX with a USB mad catz controller. There aren't any indents on those.
@@gamingnubs7628 You can absolutely move a gamecube stick in a full 360 degrees what are you talking about? Firstly you don't need to push it up against the gate. Secondly, even if you do you don't have to push it in to the edges you can glide it along the faces of the octagon. The edges help you hit the 8 primaries but they don't prevent you from using the rest of the stick.
Wow someone who doesn’t immediately have a bias against sonic because of the dark ages.
Some of my favorite Sonic games came out of from that Era!!!~ 😎💙😎💙😎💙⚡⚡⚡
fr people just can't stop bringing up that
@@violetthebat8810 same!
06 [which I consider to be one of the best Sonic games for a multitude of reasons], Sonic unleashed, Sonic and the Black Knight, Sonic Rush… That’s really all…
@@dominothealphaandomega5512 i like unleashed and rush. I like p-06 and didn’t mind black knight. 06 would have been a sonic game that adventure fans loved if it got more time yknow
The dark era were hit or miss to be honest.
Sure, there are some bad and decent game like Shadow, 06, Rivals, and Secret Rings
But there also some really good one like The Rush games, Unleashed, The first two Rider Games, and Black Knight.
I replayed Sonic Adventure last year and what I noticed for the first time was how much spectacle was packed into Sonic's story. EVERY level was designed to wow and impress and show off what the Dreamcast can do.
3:13 I love how you talk about how Sonic got his own parade float and the clip is the Sonic float being punctured 💀
he did fall on top of a police officer so it was just him fighting authority from day 1
@@ketrubbased sonic
@@JazzTheLass men cant be women
@@shyguy85 ?
Much like his career
if i had known about sonic as a little kid that intro to sonic adventure would have actually sent me into shock
I think Amy adds to the story of sonic adventure 1 and builds a solid foundation for her character. She manages to get a robot to feel things and heavily contributes to the low key emotional payoff of gamma with his story. Not to mention unlike Mario at the time, she was a playable female character and displayed a combat focused playstyle.
Idk it just felt kind of like another way sega was trying to get at nintendo like "look our heroines kick ass don't just only get kidnapped" which kind of fits with how sonic as a whole was supposed to be the anti Mario.
At least that's how I could see it for the time of the rivalry and release.
Not saying her gameplay is amazing or anything but I'd definitely put her overall experience (character, story, gameplay) over Big's overall experience. But that's just me.
Glad to hear that!
FINALLY SOMEBODY OUT HERE DEFENDING AMY!! You're a real one, fr 🤝
I was boutta cry when he was talking so much shit on my girl 💀 Like dude, it's okay to not like her gameplay or whatever but all that slander was so unnecessary, like what did she do to you?! 😭
He literally... Missed the whole point of Amy's story... Like he clearly does not care for the characters if he literally failed to realize what made Amy so great in Adventure 1. It genuinely hurt me when he said nothing would change if they took Amy out of the game like she already has the LEAST AMOUNT OF LEVELS DUDE, WTF-
Okay sorry XD My bias towards Amy aside, the whole point of her story was THAT SHE CAN ACTUALLY STAND UP FOR HERSELF, AND OTHERS! It was basically Tails' story, but for him, it was believing in himself and not always relying on Sonic, and for Amy it was proving herself that she can do it... That she can take on robots and danger all by herself! Sure, Sonic could've easily took down Zero in no time, but that's not the point. The point is that Amy is just a normal girl, she's not a super fast hero like Sonic, she's not a high-flying genius like Tails, she's not super strong and has an important destiny like Knuckles... she's just... A girl. A girl who loves and wants to be part of the adventure! She had to WORK to get where she is now, it didn't come naturally to her like the others, but she was willing to GET THERE, ALL ON HER OWN! AND THAT, TO ME, IS SO INSPIRING, especially since she's a girl, and you know how girls are treated 🙄
To me, Amy is a role model to little girls everywhere, and to anyone who thinks they're useless and can't make a difference... Sure, she didn't save a whole city like Tails, or the world like Sonic, but she protected a little Flicky and touched the heart of a robot, and helped him find his true self, and proved to herself she can be her own hero, and that is enough.. for her.
Amy proves that ANYONE can make even the smallest difference in the world.
Gosh, I'm sorry for rambling, I just love Amy, man ;w;
@@amytheprettyweirdfangirl3786 hey hey hey! Long time no see! And yeah that was stupid of this guy. Just because something is filler or irrelevant to the story does not mean you should be vile against it.
Video’s good, but it would be WAY better without the Amy and Gamma slander (this guy can go jump off a cliff for doing that to him)
@@acesamm Oh hey!! You remember me! :D (I see what you did there, read that in Sonic's voice XD) It's good to see you, haha! And yeah, ikr?? I was really enjoying the video until I got to that part... Like bruh, leave your Amy slander to another video, please, I did not come for that 💀 He could've just said "her gameplay kinda sucks, but it's short, and only 1/6 of the game so it's fine!" Or something like that like he didn't have to say all that 😭😭
Just because her story doesn't have as much significance as the others stories (besides Big's-) doesn't mean it's not just as important, I mean most people can agree SA1 has one of Amy's best characterization, how did he COMPLETELY miss the point of her story?? She's just a small girl trying to make a difference in a big world 🥺💞
Not to mention this is... AMY'S FIRST TIME BEING PLAYABLE IN MAINLINE GAME, LIKE PUT RESPECT ON MY GIRL'S NAME!! PEOPLE LIKE HIM IS THE REASON THEY DIDN'T BRING AMY BACK TO BE PLAYABLE AGAIN IN SA2 😭💔 (And why multiple playable characters stopped being a thing in general...)
@Amy The Pretty Weird Fangirl :3 For sure, I wasn't going to do a whole deep dive into her character and how much it got fleshed out in this release. But yeah, what she brings with her story is that of a normal girl trying to, and succeeding at keeping up with her hero. I do think they dropped the ball in later titles with her character, but sonic forces seemed to fix hers (and pretty much everyone else's) and I'm super excited to play as her in frontiers and origins later this year. Also I'm still kinda shocked at how he put Amy below Big in sonic adventure. The only thing I liked about playing Big in this game were the unique stage tracks lol.
13:54 FUCKING THANK YOU!!! I've been saying this for years! HOLD THE JOYSTICK DOWN AFTER FROGGY BITES THE LINE!! Makes Big story/gameplay so much easier/faster to get through. Glad you said this.
Still, they should have told you this in the game itself.
@@SpeedyBlur2000 they do
@@SpeedyBlur2000 No one is ever bothered to read the instructions ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@@SpeedyBlur2000The game literally does in the menu.
I know I'm 9 months late to this reply but I suck at bigs story (I still like big the cat as a character he's actually one of my favourites) it's either cuz I use a keyboard or I have a big skill issue
As a massive Sonic fan, I really appreciate the effort put into this video. Likes and dislikes, corrective the revisionist history, and even noting where SEGA has failed for years and years to feed this fire. To take the time to play the classics, as well as both adventure games AND do all the research to boot really means a lot. Already supported this channel, but now I truly appreciate the funny dog running it! Godspeed Stryxo, you've done well!
Comparing Sonic 06 and Sonic Boom to the two planes left me equal parts flabbergasted and laughing my ass off
WELCOME BACK STRYXO
Yes
@@JmKrokY yes
As a slight correction: fan reception to Sonic Adventure 2 was VERY mixed. A lot of us Gamecube kids loved it, but established Sonic fans were much more divided on it
Sonic actually just had a rough transition to the gamecube
When I was younger and saw the box art to Sonic generations I thought classic Sonic was modern Sonics son lol
deadass never seen anyone run over that falling bridge in Mission Street
Those comparisons between '06, Rise of Lyric, and Forces were some of the most creative and funny ways of describing those games I have ever heard. Fantastic work Stryxo!
dont forget to mention that when they make ports of 2d games its always the first 3 sonic games. i think that's a shame because there are a lot of fun 2d games that would totally benefit from having a port/remake like the advance games or sonic rush
buddy i’d play the fuck out of an HD, single screen sonic rush 1 remaster
rush adventure is good too but rush 1 would *really* benefit from a wider screen and smoother gameplay
Funny thing about the glitchy loop in Adventure DX, is that I had never glitched on it in any of my playthroughs. I ended up testing why it may happen and found that it only happens when you’re holding any direction but forward.
It is incredibly easy to activate
21:20 actually persona 3 had recently a pretty nad port and yakuza 3 remastered has this really weird bug were every enemy just blocks your attacks but your point still stands
Finally someone that gives this games the respect that they deserve, when i first played the adventure games i played the original dreamcast versions and i could not understand why people said that this games sucks! But then i saw the ports for the gamecube and understand why they were so upset!
Cool video man, i hope people starts to see how wonderfull this games really are!
18:49 That happened with me to!
Ports are what got Sonic into this mess, but honestly they could also be what gets him out of it. SA1 and 2 remakes would be a great start, but I honestly want SEGA to go farther. Polish up some of the older 3D titles like Heroes and the Storybook games. Show some love to spin-offs like the Advance and Riders games. Hell, maybe remake 06 one day.
Sonic needs to embrace his past, not forget about it, and improving previous games would go a long way to improving his image and bringing some goodwill to his 3D outings.
I get embracing the past but considering most gamers keep bringing up '06 moreso than other games as the past, it's a bit understandable why Sega want to forget or avoid it as much as possible if the main takeaway is that most people hate it.
What I agree with:
-The SADX (Especially the unmodded Steam version) and SA2B ports misrepresent the first two major 3D entries in the series.
-The original releases weren't perfect either, but were fantastic games for the time they came out in and still generally hold up today with that in mind the same way as SM64.
-Heroes is comparatively worse but still fine.
What I don't agree with:
-The entire notion of a "Dark Age" of bad releases.
-SEGA failing to stick to one consistent working direction for the series.
My explanation:
As far as mainline entries go, SEGA has actually generally stuck to one major gameplay style at a time that works until it doesn't, for the most part only relegating experimental/alternative gameplay styles to spinoffs or games that follow up to failures. Sonic Adventure, Adventure 2, Heroes, ShadowTH, and Sonic 06 all follow the same underlying gameplay formula established in Sonic Adventure, but with their own tweaks to stand out between games similar to pretty much every other franchise ever. After the failure that was 06, the next mainline entry is Unleashed which set the formula we would continue to see used for Colors, Generations, Lost World, Forces, and Frontiers. Yes, even Lost World is actually just a boost game in disguise. Within Lost World the Spindash is just boost without a meter that you have a charge animation for and the Bounce is just an alternative stomp. It's a boost game with parkour, that's it.
Likewise, there's no point in Sonic's history of games in which SEGA were consistently pumping out bad games. Around the same time as Heroes, Shadow, and 06 were coming out we were getting the Advance and Rush games, all of which are generally praised more than hated, especially given their handheld nature. Secret Rings and Black Knight got a lot of backlash for just existing, but when you actually give them a chance the games are absolute bangers with great gameplay, stories, and OST's. Unleashed would eventually go on to be recognized as a great game after the initial backlash, Colors and Generations were both received mostly positively, and even Lost World and Forces are far more mid than they are outright bad.
What's really going on here is that there was never a Dark Age of Sonic, but a Dark Age of Sonic Backlash. After Sonic 06 happened, it became "Cool" to be a Sonic hater and to bash everything that had the name attached to it. "Sonic was never good" and "Sonic had a rough transition into 3D" were coined by these initial fans who were burned by Sonic 06 and decided to never look back. The poor ports of Sonic Adventure and Adventure 2 only fueled the sentiment further from there, creating a larger perception of a franchise that was far worse than it really was.
Sure, there's been some individual titles here and there that just weren't great, but the series has a much larger mediocrity problem than it does any sort of genuine "Dark Age".
Hey its the wildpartanz guy!
No but actually this is an amazing break down of sonic and his "rough transition". from the research to the general presentation this video is a really well designed essay on how a bad reputation can tarnish what used to be considered good. And also i think the hedge guy games are pretty cool :)
Sonic having a rough transition to 3D is a true fact in the developpement sense.
Notice how there are no main game on the Saturn? It's not like they didn't attempt it, it's that they failed.
A short recap: they started on a project for the Genesis based on the SatAm TV show, wich then transitioned into Sonic Mars intended for the 32x, which then became Sonic Xtreme for the Saturn and was ultimately abandoned before work was started on Sonic Adventure also originally for the Saturn but was eventually released for the Dreamcast.
This is the most hellish game developpment story i have ever hear. So yeah, Sonic had a rough transition to 3D.
Just wanna say that its cool seing a youtuber who doesnt usually talk about sonic talk about my favourite franchise and not in a bad way for once.
You were speaking ABSOLUTE FACTS in the final few minutes of the video, especially 23:09-23:17, that one hit me hard as a longtime Sonic fan
8:11 - 8:14 That cheap spike hit in Metropolis Zone didn't exist in the initial release of that game. In the initial release of that game, you would narrowly avoid it.
Live And Learn is the official Theme of "Sonic The Hedgehog" as a franchise.
I clicked on this expecting some dumb rant just shitting on 3D Sonic needlessly.
What I got was an incredibly well made video that brings up some great points and finally does 3D Sonic some true justice. Seriously, that speech at the end about Sonic always standing back up even after all his previous failures nearly made me tear up. Well done my dude!
that’s probably why he changed the title
OMG YES! thanks you for putting endless possibilities at the end (best sonic song ever as far as im concerned)
11:20 IIRC, the English VAs had no English Voice directors, which made line delivery almost impossible.
For people to understand the importance of voice directors here is an example. Your line is:
“Over here!”
But in what context are you saying that?
Are you taunting someone to hit you? Beckoning someone in a crowd? Whispering behind a guard’s back?
This is why a lot of the voice actors in this game sound so hilarious when their responses are so chill or far too over the top for the scene.
“Sonic has a rough transition into 3D”
-reviewer on sonic forces
I never played any sonic games, but your opinions and how you present information is so nice that i'm really interested in the franchise now, and I WANT MORE SONIC VIDEOS!!!!
What a great video! Not just because I agree with what you said, but because every point was presented so beautifully. Like a wonderfully written essay!
13:55 "the game never tells you"
I see someone didn't select the Instruction button when selecting their character.
This is genuinely the best Sonic the Hedgehog related video I've ever seen this year so far...
16:41 Not to mention that in order to make the glitch happen, you have to hug the right wall and slowly tilt to the left. You can even see in the Grumps episode that he hits the wall at the exact same spot each time, as if he knows that'll happen. And then he has the nerve to ask "How do people defend this game?" especially when he admits he intentionally chooses busted ports of these games.
New fan here, introduced to the franchise in 2021, had absolutely no experience with anything Sonic related before that year. Today, more than 140 games, a dozen shows and films, around 700 comics and a few novels later, I'll drop my personal, nostalgia bias-free take on the subject.
Sonic had a decent transition into 3D. In order to avoid typing a wall of text I'll just drop very quick thoughts about each mainline Adventure game to summarize my thoughts.
- Sonic Adventure: One of my favorites, basically everything about it is great, Big's campaign is the only one that isn't enjoyable. Out of my favorite 3D platforming franchises (R&C, Sly, J&D, Mario) this is my favorite first outing. 8/10
- Sonic Adventure 2: Underwhelming and disappointing. Light Speed Dash is inconsistent, grind railing doesn't work as intended, boss fights are mid at best, story is full of too many contrivances and conveniences even for Sonic standards, level design doesn't allow for as much exploration as its predecessor, Shadow is the only character with a compelling arc and even that feels rushed. Treasure hunting stages are boring pain and mech stages are boring without the pain. Worst game to 100% alongside Heroes. Soundtrack slaps and so does the lore and narrative ambiguity. 5/10
- Sonic Heroes: Interesting gameplay gimmicks, messy execution. Casino stages are bottom of the barrel when it comes to Sonic stages (in the entire franchise, not just Heroes). Broken camera and the worst implementation of multiple playthroughs in the franchise, it's painfully repetitive. Simple story but effective, probably the most forgettable Adventure era mainline game, OST also slaps. 6/10
- Shadow the Hedgehog: Slippery controls, repetitive to unlock final story, gunplay isn't as tight as I'd have wanted. I appreciate the narrative ambiguity once more, branching paths kinda ruin it for me however. Shadow can't be accurately presented if his characterization is all over the place, with the lack of an official canon path it becomes an incomprehensible mess. 6/10
- Sonic the Hedgehog (06): Best OST in the entire franchise, best villain in the entire franchise (Mephiles), best voice acting for the time in the franchise excluding SatAM, best presentation and gameplay in the franchise at the time, most fascinating plot in the franchise (at least in games, some comic arcs slap harder), best characterization of most of the established cast (especially Shadow), best 2 player mode at the time, great settings and set pieces. Blaze's implementation story-wise is an inexcusable mess, Rouge doesn't play well, frame rate when in combat on the PS3 is terrible (it's fine on XBOX 360 tho), the Mach speed sections are abysmal even tho conceptually neat. Would have been the top of the era if not for the next one. 8/10
- Sonic Unleashed: More like Sonic Unpeaked cause god damn. It repeats everything 06 nailed except for the narrative and villain but makes up for it in the unmatched level design, presentation and gameplay. Day Stages are peak Sonic period. Werehog stages are amazing but can overstay their welcome at times and even with a lot of moves unlocked the combat feels repetitive and unforgiving. 8/10 also.
The Adventure Era is my favorite Sonic era out of the 3 (Classic Era 1991-1997, Adventure Era 1998-2009, Meta Era 2010-2021) and from what I can tell I'm not the only one. As far as I can tell casuals and non-Sonic fans seem to think we peaked with the Classics, fans that never bothered with the old games seem to think we peaked with the Metas, Sonic fans seem to think we peaked with the Adventures. Glad Frontiers and IDW are taking us back to that Adventure style!
I disagree with sa2 (its my favourite game after all) but everything else i mostly agree with it. Sonic 06 is also a solid game apart from the bugs and elise and sonics creepy relationship.
@@gigachadarmstrong5817 Care for a little discussion? Would love to know your reasoning behind your opinion if you would be so kind😁. Feel free to touch upon any of the points I vaguely mentioned or bring up points of your own!
@@KOTSOSMC2002 no problem! Sa2 is my favourite game mostly because it feels like they just built up on sa1s gameplay. Plus the music, story, side content and voice acting feels much better. Though the mocap isnt that good. It was also one of the first sonic games i actually cared about and played alot of.
Lmao 06 above sa2 ain't no way
@@thatitalianlameguy2235 Yes way, and I shortly mentioned why too.
Sonic The Hedgehog has a rough transition into manhood
FINALLY
Yo
I find it funny about the “games doesn’t tell you” thing, cuz (at least in the early days of gaming) these games didn’t have tutorials at the time and you were required to read the game manual to know how to play it
I mean I know there were tutorials back then but they were niche and far less common back then
Games can still teach you or throw you into a disguised tutorial. Super Mario 64 and Super Metroid are examples of this. Within the first few levels in both games you can learn so much about the game by just exploring without the game saying a thing.
Sonic on his way to infamy: "GOTTA GO FAST"
You know it's kinda hilarious. I didn't know that the analog stick thing was unintended. I never played sa2 on the dreamcast and don't have a PC so the ports are all I know. I thought the grinding was just that hard, and I learned to play with it as it was.
"Sonic had a rough transition to 3D" is actually a reference to Sonic 3D Blast and Sonic R.
Yeah, if you look at what happened behind the scenes in the company in the Saturn era, the “rough transition” definitely holds up.
Nah. From the very beginning they put it on SA1 & 2 since the Saturn games aren't really transitions to 3D.
I'm not gonna lie. The Blue Blur may have had some ups and downs when transitioning to 3D. But at least he had... "some" good games. I may not of a huge fan of some of them like Shadow the Hedgehog and the story book games. But at the very least, he will always still be my favorite character of video games period. And for good reason.
10/10 outro i nearly shed a tear
we cannot have evolution without a bit of roughness
thank you stryxo for basically summing up all of my feelings and thoughts when it comes to 3D sonic games.
I think sonic had a rough transition because, with something like mario, ye he didn't first try he's first 3d game but it never felt like they we desprate for some kind of formula, their was always a baseline that they have, but I don't think that was with sonic, like first, 2 adventures game while diffrent that the original 2d games felt like a natural progression, but after SA2, it felt like sonic team didn't know what they want to do with him (I don't say that there were no good game, but there were very inconsistent to say the least).
SA1 is the most satisfying 3D sonic to control that I've tried
Let's go we have a new stryxo video, now I can rest knowing he's not dead
The thing about the phrase "Sonic has had a rough transition to 3D" is more that it's used incorrectly. And while I can't blame people for that since they probably haven't looked into the actual transition and are only looking at the final product with Sonic Adventure on the DreamCast.
Hell, I didn't know about a lot of what I say like 3 years ago
I say this because between Sonic 3 in late 1994 and SA1 in late 1998 Sonic Team was struggling trying to make a game for the SEGA Saturn with the mess that (from what I've heard online) was the development of Sonic X-Treme which was supposed to be Sonic's real transition to 3D and it ended up being canceled wasting probably close to 3 years of development time.
Sonic X-treme was made by Sega Technical Institue(STI),you should instead argue about the fact they were busy making nights into dreams.
This man writes better essays on games than my writing teacher can write an essay on teaching.
Edit: oh likes ty
4:45 thats only in the DX port and not in the Dreamcast version
Came back to like and comment. This is a really well researched and thought out take! I was young enough to love both ports as a kid. 400+ hours in SA2B. Even at that age I felt the step down in Sonic Heroes and beyond.
I’ve played a heavily modded SA2 on Steam and it was incredible. I’m defo gonna try and experience the Dreamcast restoration mod one day soon. 😄
Rough transition to 3D?
Contra - Legacy of War and C - The Contra Adventure, now that was rough
Yakuza does get treated like this tho, the kiwami remakes were heavily flawed and missing content from the original games, every game reuses a shitload of movesets and assets, and the ps3 remasters were broken by doubling the framerate, especially 3 where enemies now block most attacks and immediately get up from knockdowns.
...I've never played the OG versions of Adventure or Adventure 2. The Gamecube ports are the only versions I had. For a while as a kid, I didn't realize the Dreamcast even existed. Despite all that, though, Sonic Adventure 2 Battle remains my favorite Sonic game of all time, with SA1 not that far behind it.
SA1, SA2, Heroes, Shadow the Hedgehog.
Those are all extremely fun games, imo, and the controls are fine. I never had any problem with 3D Sonic, but Colors is annoying. 06 is janky. Secret Rings is an abomination.
If anything, Sonic transitioned to 3D just fine, it's what came after the transition that was rough.
the only one i didnt have fun with is shadow and i dont think thats really a bad game either just over the top
No Lost World and Black Knight?
listing the video's game as Pocket Adventure was intentional and I will not believe otherwise
I agree that Sonic has had a rough transition to 3D, but I'm not talking about Sonic Adventure, but the 3D games that came before.
Well, Sonic did have a rough transition to 3d, but the transition wasn't Sonic Adventure. It was the games between Sonic 3 and Knuckles and Sonic adventure. I'm talking Sonic 3d blast, Sonic X-treme, Sonic R, and all the other 3d Sonic games that were released and canceled between 1994 and 1998
"Sonic Adventure 2" is one of my favourite games, but so is "Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles".
Sonic Frontiers really made me go "damn. Sonic is BACK." The second movie and Frontiers (despite its flaws) really put sonic in a positive light again. I really hope SEGA puts someone competent in charge of the franchise though - we need to keep going in the direction we are going
One thing I've heard about the clip in Metropolis in Sonic 2, the one where you get shot into a spiked ceiling, is that it's not like that on the Genesis/Mega Drive version, it's due to very minor physics changes from the mobile port. Not sure if it's true, but it's what I heard once.
21:30 so allegedly a major factor for this was SEGA being bought out in 2004 by what equated to a slot machine company. They didn't really focus too much on the game sales as they mainly wanted the wholesome blue rat to be a PR boost while the evil gambling empire brought in most of the money, so the budgets and deadlines for the games suffered as they weren't a priority
Short answer is they claim Sonic had a rough transition to 3D because it’s revisionist history from people that didn’t play these games when they were new lmao. They weren’t many 3D platformers to compare Sonic to in order to claim it was such a rough transition.
That ending was so beautiful 🥹 it’s true too! Sonic ALWAYS finds a way to go again against all odds and even surprise those who doubt him!
you could have used the Sonic 1 and 2 2013 decompilation it's not hard to set up but it's fine
At first glance I didn't notice the title of this video was in quotation marks lol. Either way I put it on my playlist to watch because I haven't seen a Sonic has a rough transition from 2D to 3D in a few years
Those who say that stupid line are those who have SKILL ISSUE
“Millions of people died Tails…”
😂
Mario had a rough transition to 3D. The amount of jankiness in SM64 is rarely talked about. Then there was the whole FLUDD thing, etc etc...
Sunshine was a rushed mess, galaxy saved 3d mario, whole 06 killed 3d sonic's reception
Nah 64 is great
@@Deepfried_duck 64 is extremely mediocre compared to what people are still saying about it. people still claim it’s “one of the best to play even now” when that’s anything but true. the game is janky as shit and just isn’t fun to control.
@@bootlegCanine how in the absolute hell do you say its not fun to control.
@@Deepfried_duck when i played mario 64 (got about halfway through tick tock clock before i realised i wasn’t having any amount of fun), mario felt so painstakingly slow and tough to get to turn around to react to certain things, and the boss fights were unimaginably boring. in my own opinion, the game isn’t fun.
Definitely agree with you on the ports... No one who already dislikes Sonic will bother playing the original versions of these games when they are so difficult to access...
Adventure had pacing issues, but the port is the real reason I don't replay it as much anymore...
Luckily Adventure 2 got a way better port, and it's one of my favourite games!
18:40 As someone who does SA2B Item Randomizers, a lot of Upgrades are actually optional, even without crazy skips.
Shadow's upgrades can ALL be skipped with a simple spindash jump, The Mechs only need the Hover and the Large Cannon/Bazooka, the Treasure Hunters need Digging and the Hammer Gloves/Iron Boots...
Sonic needs the Most, with the Light Shoes, Bounce and Flame Ring... (Although you can beat Metal Harbor without the Light Speed Dash relatively easily)
Idk, just found it interesting to talk about!
Very good video. Which mods do you recommend to play SA1 and SA2 as intended by the creators?
BetterSADX For SA1 and as of SA2 I haven't installed any mods.
@@dojangofficial1050 cutscene revamp and better volume controls are a must for sa2!
I love that this is a sonic vid and its my birthday and great video tho makes me wanna replay sonic adventure
While I know both the Dreamcast and Nintendo 64 are two different console generations, I personally think that Mario 64 has also aged a bit. Particularly when it comes to the camera and precise movements with Mario. However no one seems to talk about that. Sonic adventure despite being one console generation ahead was incredibly ambitious for a first 3d game. A Detailed story, multiple gameplay styles, impressive graphics and more. When people talk about Mario 64 and Sonic adventure no one seems to bring up Mario 64’s faults and Sonic Adventure’s accomplishments.
pretty ignorant if you ask me
Yes, yes, YES. I 100% do think Mario 64 has aged, probably more than SA1, and yet every Mario fan holds a pitchfork at you when you say that it hasn't aged well.
Wow, great video. And the conclusion was moving. Very cool.
For better and for worse, this man is spitting nothing but facts
Sonic Adventure (Dreamcast, not DX) is actually smoother than Mario 64.
And Sonic 3D wasn't bad, just different.
This coming from a huge Mario fan btw.
Mario 64 isn't bad, I'm not saying that before anyone says.
But it doesn't hold up anywhere near as well in a comparison of the launch versions and not the DS and Gamecube ports of Mario 64 and Sonic Adventure DX.
Acquired the two games with generation recently, adventure 1 is a real blast!
I think when people use this phrase, they actually mean Sonic's 3D games aren't as consistently good as his 2D games. Sonic in 2D is generally good. In 3D well its all over the place to put it lightly.
3d Sonic games are good as the 2d games if we talla about adventure series, unleashed,colors, generations adm frontiers,But one question,when You talk about 2d games You only count the classics and manía or count games like rush series,advance series Even ds colors?
you say that but there were definitely some awful games in the 90s: sonic blast, sonic 2 game gear, basically most of the game gear games tbh
edit: the 16 bit games tho definitely
Ngl, while I prefer SA2 over 1, I appreciate the first game a lot more because of how ambitious and bold it was. And then, SA2 completely improved upon it making it one of the best games in the series, and one of the best 3D platformers I've ever played.
Duke Nukem has suffered a similar revisionist history due to DNF, that game is often cited as "proof" of Duke being a problematic character and that he "was always this way" when he really wasn't like that at all in DN3D
Duke is chad mcchaddington
Sonic never had a "hard transition to 3D" Adventure 1 and 2 are THE best transitions from 2D to 3D out there and the rest of his library are full of bangers. Unleashed, O6, storybook games, LW and Frontiers to name a few. This agenda againts Sonic needs to die already as Sonic has incredible games that are even better than AAA games with their fun and quality.
7:25 uh not true! my dad liked scrap brain zone. that’s like the one thing he remembers from a video game ever, he just thought the aesthetic of it was cool. but also the last time he played a game was when sonic 2 came out and he hasn’t played anything else since, i don’t think he even comprehends the idea of 3d graphics.
YAY YOU UPLOADED IVE BEEN SO PSYCHED TYSM 🎉
I had a very different reaction to the Sonic Adventure intro. I saw that and I said, "Oh no, this is pretty shitty."
Me playing the actual game: Oh no. Oh nooooooooooooo.
if sonic worked in 3d, there would've been a good 3d sonic game by now
The reason was that he didnt have a fully 3D game at the time nintendo and crash bandicoot did