Great stuff. I like that you do videos like this. As much as I want to absorb information about the Aptera (and other small EVs) I find these little sidesteps refreshing. Please keep it up. 🙂
Nice program. Ben is well spoken and informed. I always liked the I-Miev. Like the Aptera, it looked like a car for the future back in 2011, but like many early EVs, having less than 80 miles of range was a barrier to buying for most people. Around that time the Chevy Volt came up for lease at $250 a month, and it had around 40 miles of EV-only range, so that's what I got (being cheaper than gas). One interesting thing to know about the Leaf and I-Miev was that they had the option (not stock) of CHAdeMO DC fast charging, and the Chevy Spark EV also had the option of CCS DC fast charging. So if someone is looking at buying a used one of these (and the batteries are healthy) it is nice to have the fast charging option. One other thing to mention for those people looking at buying an older EV is that the Inflation Reduction plan does actually provide a subsidy for used EVs and PHEVs (with some qualifications). All used cars have had spiking prices over the last year, but now we are seeing those prices drop, which will make the idea of buying a used EV compelling again in 2023.
This is exactly what we need, basic EV transportation. A no frills simple "Geo Metro" for the masses is what will really get people into them. Affordable basic EVs for the win!
If you like the wef plans where nobody is allowed outside of their zipcode. If you like freedom and open market we want affordable EVs with long range and quick charge times. I'm pretty sure a covered e bike could fill the role of short range ev
@@squidbeard492 There's a 3-wheel enclosed e-bike called the ELF and I took a close look at it when I was buying the used i-MiEV back in 2015. I was doing a lot of bicycling at the time and surveyed several such electrified pedaling options. I crossed it off the list pretty quickly, though, for several reasons. First, because it's such a niche product, there weren't any used ones. A new ELF was around $5K at the time, not much cheaper than what I got my used i-MiEV for. I just checked today and ELFs are apparently still being made. But they're now up to $9K to $10K, which is frankly pretty ridiculous for what you get. This is also something a bank or credit union isn't going to finance under a conventional car loan. So much for the "freedom and open market" thing. Further, this is a vehicle that would not only be limited to surface streets, but specifically to the tiny side streets with a 25mph posted limit. If you want to "stay in your Zip code," this will do it for you. Even if you could manage to get it up to 45mph, you would be toast the first time a drunkard in an SUV so much as bumped into you. Unlike the simple diamond frame single speed bike I built for myself back then, it was wide enough width that you couldn't squeeze it into the sort of tight spaces I could with real world urban 2-wheel riding protocol. I do agree that we should have more affordable EVs with long range and quick charge times. But guess what? We already do! Batteries have gotten so much cheaper this past decade that cars with 250 miles of range (Chevy Bolt EV, etc.) are cheaper today new than what the various older EVs - like the one I drive - cost when they were new. The low used prices of these older EVs reflects the fact that smaller/expensive batteries were all we had back then. But they're now very affordable on the used market for those with conventional urban driving requirements and that was the focus of what we were talking about in the video. Today's cheap EVs with their 250 mile batteries will be similarly cheap on the used market in just a few more years. The casualties on the marketplace will be gasoline econo-cars and well-intentioned attempts to turn basic bicycles into something they never really could be.
@@benjaminnead8557 well I did say they need to be cheap... There was a study about a year ago that found most people either kept an ice vehicle or had one in the household for long trips or went back to ice. Those who stay EV only were the exception. The fastest charging EVs I've seen can add up to 100miles of range in~5 min. I can pump about 4 gallons per minute. That equates to 40 miles per minute towing in my truck or 200 miles per minute in a prius or 120miles per minute in a regular gas car. Even my truck and trailer adds range twice as fast as an EV fast charger and a Prius is 10 times faster. I know just plug in at home, but half of the population doesn't have garages with electricity and will have to wait 2-10 times longer at public chargers.
Hopefully Ben the "Radio-Fundraiser Guy" is right about the last-minute collection success and the @savesion campaign! Keeping all 20 fingers and toes crossed!
I've been thinking about this a lot Shay. I used to believe that 300 miles was the sweet spot but now I think you are right. If Chargers were as available as gas stations then 100 range or so is fine. Great minds think alike!! 🤣
Hey Robert. Good to run into you again. Chad, Sarah and I talked at length about all sorts of EV.s But we didn't really get to the topic of the Chinese market. If an "i-MiEV 2.0" were to ever get here, I'm going to guess this is where we'll find it coming from.
Good stuff!!! Nice variety, subject-matter-wise. Maybe we could have made do with $7-8k compliance EV until we got our Outback repaired! Hmmm… Good to hear, though, that Ben is thinking about the Bolt for his next car. We do have rooftop solar that provides about 50% of our electricity averaged over the year (~0% in January, though). We’ve had a GE Geospring heat pump water heater for 7 or 8 years now and it’s worked well for us. (I don’t think GE makes them any more, though.) Electric snow blower, chain saw, and hedge trimmer, too… We’re gettin’ there.
That's awesome Tom! We have an electric lawn mower, snow blower and weed Wacker. Not sure what a heat pump would do here in the frozen (normally) Michigan.
Excellent, Tom. My rented house has one of the early (circa 2004) ducted heat pump HVAC units and it's still pretty good, at around 18 SEER. Newer ones, though, are just that much more efficient. I'm now seeing mini splits with 30 SEER specs. Absolutely amazing. There's also lots of progress with units that are designed for cold climates these days. We also have a similarly old solar hot water heating system here. This is one that circulates glycol in a closed loop up to a rooftop collector, where it gets heated by sunlight, and then gets pumped back down to the electric tank. Unfortunately, ours was inoperable by the time we got here. So, we now have an unassisted electric tank. The landlord told us that a heat pump hot water tank would be what is sourced when the old tank finally dies. We also had our landlord remove the old gas stove (the only fossil fuel device in here when we moved in.) He was only too happy to put it back into storage and even arranged for the gas company to come over and shut off the service from the outside meter. We bought a stainless steel restaurant table, sized to the old stove's dimensions, and this accommodates a large convection oven and a big induction hotplate. With a few other efficient devices - like a Instant Pot pressure cooker - we don't miss the old gas range at all.
Love hearing from people that jumped in on electric cars early. Way braver than me. I hope this helps people on the edge. You won't be sorry. As for me paying less than 5 cents a mile and helping the environment was a no brainier. Learned a lot. Thank you.
Y'all should check out the "Aging Wheels" UA-cam channel. He toys with a variety of cars, including EVs, and I'm pretty sure he's featured that Valmet city car, along with Coda. He's building an electric Ford Escape and hybrid school bus. He's hilarious and knowledgeable!
Twice this summer in Texas when we had 105+ degree days my Ford Fusion said engine on to to battery temperature. Is this a concern on the Aptera. Ask when you go to San Diego please.
I've seen as high as 117° F here in Tucson during the dry early summer months. Needless to say, I don't charge the i-MiEV's air-cooled battery on those days! From what I've seen regarding the Aptera's thermal management for the cells, they've got a very sophisticated liquid-cooled system in place that involves evaporation on the vehicle's exterior to keep things under control. I think those cars are going to do very well in the extreme heat.
I did. The conversation was over an hour. He likes Aptera but it's not a fit for him. Had to cut something out and he's not as excited as the rest of us about Aptera however he does really like it. Just not his thing. Thank you for the question!
As Chad explained, I'm a big fan of what Aptera is doing. If I was more of a long distance driver, it would be the way I would go. The ~200 mile range of the Sion doesn't cramp my style and it would be a big upgrade from the old i-MiEV, in fact. I also like the Sion's "Swiss Army Knife" approach to energy sharing. That might be an even more important to me than the solar skin. You might have also caught that I'm a big fan of the almost indestructible nature of LFP batteries and that's another box I would be able to check with the Sion.
good information Ben. Thanks for being on this show. Jim
Thanks, Jim. Keep up the good work in Phoenix.
Great stuff. I like that you do videos like this. As much as I want to absorb information about the Aptera (and other small EVs) I find these little sidesteps refreshing. Please keep it up. 🙂
Thank you JP! We really appreciate that
Thanks again, Chad & Sarah, for this UA-cam chat. I just became a member of the Mug Club, so you can add a marker on your map in Tucson, Arizona.
That's awesome! Thank you Ben. Many more chats to come we hope!
Nice program. Ben is well spoken and informed. I always liked the I-Miev. Like the Aptera, it looked like a car for the future back in 2011, but like many early EVs, having less than 80 miles of range was a barrier to buying for most people. Around that time the Chevy Volt came up for lease at $250 a month, and it had around 40 miles of EV-only range, so that's what I got (being cheaper than gas). One interesting thing to know about the Leaf and I-Miev was that they had the option (not stock) of CHAdeMO DC fast charging, and the Chevy Spark EV also had the option of CCS DC fast charging. So if someone is looking at buying a used one of these (and the batteries are healthy) it is nice to have the fast charging option. One other thing to mention for those people looking at buying an older EV is that the Inflation Reduction plan does actually provide a subsidy for used EVs and PHEVs (with some qualifications). All used cars have had spiking prices over the last year, but now we are seeing those prices drop, which will make the idea of buying a used EV compelling again in 2023.
Great points Dean!! Thank you
This is exactly what we need, basic EV transportation. A no frills simple "Geo Metro" for the masses is what will really get people into them. Affordable basic EVs for the win!
Totally agree! Simple and affordable EVs are desperately needed.
If you like the wef plans where nobody is allowed outside of their zipcode. If you like freedom and open market we want affordable EVs with long range and quick charge times. I'm pretty sure a covered e bike could fill the role of short range ev
You certainly have an interesting point of view! Thank you for sharing. We always appreciate it.
@@squidbeard492 There's a 3-wheel enclosed e-bike called the ELF and I took a close look at it when I was buying the used i-MiEV back in 2015. I was doing a lot of bicycling at the time and surveyed several such electrified pedaling options. I crossed it off the list pretty quickly, though, for several reasons.
First, because it's such a niche product, there weren't any used ones. A new ELF was around $5K at the time, not much cheaper than what I got my used i-MiEV for. I just checked today and ELFs are apparently still being made. But they're now up to $9K to $10K, which is frankly pretty ridiculous for what you get. This is also something a bank or credit union isn't going to finance under a conventional car loan. So much for the "freedom and open market" thing.
Further, this is a vehicle that would not only be limited to surface streets, but specifically to the tiny side streets with a 25mph posted limit. If you want to "stay in your Zip code," this will do it for you. Even if you could manage to get it up to 45mph, you would be toast the first time a drunkard in an SUV so much as bumped into you. Unlike the simple diamond frame single speed bike I built for myself back then, it was wide enough width that you couldn't squeeze it into the sort of tight spaces I could with real world urban 2-wheel riding protocol.
I do agree that we should have more affordable EVs with long range and quick charge times. But guess what? We already do! Batteries have gotten so much cheaper this past decade that cars with 250 miles of range (Chevy Bolt EV, etc.) are cheaper today new than what the various older EVs - like the one I drive - cost when they were new. The low used prices of these older EVs reflects the fact that smaller/expensive batteries were all we had back then. But they're now very affordable on the used market for those with conventional urban driving requirements and that was the focus of what we were talking about in the video.
Today's cheap EVs with their 250 mile batteries will be similarly cheap on the used market in just a few more years. The casualties on the marketplace will be gasoline econo-cars and well-intentioned attempts to turn basic bicycles into something they never really could be.
@@benjaminnead8557 well I did say they need to be cheap... There was a study about a year ago that found most people either kept an ice vehicle or had one in the household for long trips or went back to ice. Those who stay EV only were the exception.
The fastest charging EVs I've seen can add up to 100miles of range in~5 min. I can pump about 4 gallons per minute. That equates to 40 miles per minute towing in my truck or 200 miles per minute in a prius or 120miles per minute in a regular gas car. Even my truck and trailer adds range twice as fast as an EV fast charger and a Prius is 10 times faster. I know just plug in at home, but half of the population doesn't have garages with electricity and will have to wait 2-10 times longer at public chargers.
Hopefully Ben the "Radio-Fundraiser Guy" is right about the last-minute collection success and the @savesion campaign! Keeping all 20 fingers and toes crossed!
I really hope they make it. The more SEV companies the better. Thank you for the comment Markus!
the range issue will become less important when more charging stations are constructed. this is a fine car for those who's lifestyle fits the range.
I've been thinking about this a lot Shay. I used to believe that 300 miles was the sweet spot but now I think you are right. If Chargers were as available as gas stations then 100 range or so is fine. Great minds think alike!! 🤣
@@dtl great info from Ben. I'd like 150-170 mi range, which allows for a 70 mi trip 1 way.
I would be pleased if Mitsu would re-introduce something like the i-Miev with modern battery tech and a bit more range. I am weird and like its looks.
Same here Robert!
Hey Robert. Good to run into you again. Chad, Sarah and I talked at length about all sorts of EV.s But we didn't really get to the topic of the Chinese market. If an "i-MiEV 2.0" were to ever get here, I'm going to guess this is where we'll find it coming from.
Good stuff!!! Nice variety, subject-matter-wise. Maybe we could have made do with $7-8k compliance EV until we got our Outback repaired! Hmmm… Good to hear, though, that Ben is thinking about the Bolt for his next car.
We do have rooftop solar that provides about 50% of our electricity averaged over the year (~0% in January, though). We’ve had a GE Geospring heat pump water heater for 7 or 8 years now and it’s worked well for us. (I don’t think GE makes them any more, though.) Electric snow blower, chain saw, and hedge trimmer, too… We’re gettin’ there.
That's awesome Tom! We have an electric lawn mower, snow blower and weed Wacker. Not sure what a heat pump would do here in the frozen (normally) Michigan.
Excellent, Tom. My rented house has one of the early (circa 2004) ducted heat pump HVAC units and it's still pretty good, at around 18 SEER. Newer ones, though, are just that much more efficient. I'm now seeing mini splits with 30 SEER specs. Absolutely amazing. There's also lots of progress with units that are designed for cold climates these days.
We also have a similarly old solar hot water heating system here. This is one that circulates glycol in a closed loop up to a rooftop collector, where it gets heated by sunlight, and then gets pumped back down to the electric tank. Unfortunately, ours was inoperable by the time we got here. So, we now have an unassisted electric tank. The landlord told us that a heat pump hot water tank would be what is sourced when the old tank finally dies.
We also had our landlord remove the old gas stove (the only fossil fuel device in here when we moved in.) He was only too happy to put it back into storage and even arranged for the gas company to come over and shut off the service from the outside meter. We bought a stainless steel restaurant table, sized to the old stove's dimensions, and this accommodates a large convection oven and a big induction hotplate. With a few other efficient devices - like a Instant Pot pressure cooker - we don't miss the old gas range at all.
Love hearing from people that jumped in on electric cars early. Way braver than me. I hope this helps people on the edge. You won't be sorry. As for me paying less than 5 cents a mile and helping the environment was a no brainier. Learned a lot. Thank you.
It's such a neat car. No frills.
I'm still surprised when Chad first announced your purchase! I love our i3 and there's definitely no going backwards now!
@@andysue2264 I was as excited when you got yours as I was to get mine. We learned a lot from you.
@@carolemonroe4400 and I’m still learning more every day! And other interesting facts from Chad and Sarah daily too!
Mitsu should make a hybrid Mirage. At their price point and strength in electronics it would give the Prius a run for its money!
I totally agree!!
Y'all should check out the "Aging Wheels" UA-cam channel. He toys with a variety of cars, including EVs, and I'm pretty sure he's featured that Valmet city car, along with Coda. He's building an electric Ford Escape and hybrid school bus. He's hilarious and knowledgeable!
We will definitely check it out. Thank you James!!
Almost to 2,000 subscribers!
Can't believe it!!
Twice this summer in Texas when we had 105+ degree days my Ford Fusion said engine on to to battery temperature. Is this a concern on the Aptera. Ask when you go to San Diego please.
I will Steven. That's an important question for an EV that wants sun!
I've seen as high as 117° F here in Tucson during the dry early summer months. Needless to say, I don't charge the i-MiEV's air-cooled battery on those days! From what I've seen regarding the Aptera's thermal management for the cells, they've got a very sophisticated liquid-cooled system in place that involves evaporation on the vehicle's exterior to keep things under control. I think those cars are going to do very well in the extreme heat.
Does the imiev have battery cooling?
Just curious why you didn't ask your guest if an Aptera would interest him...
I did. The conversation was over an hour. He likes Aptera but it's not a fit for him. Had to cut something out and he's not as excited as the rest of us about Aptera however he does really like it. Just not his thing. Thank you for the question!
As Chad explained, I'm a big fan of what Aptera is doing. If I was more of a long distance driver, it would be the way I would go. The ~200 mile range of the Sion doesn't cramp my style and it would be a big upgrade from the old i-MiEV, in fact. I also like the Sion's "Swiss Army Knife" approach to energy sharing. That might be an even more important to me than the solar skin. You might have also caught that I'm a big fan of the almost indestructible nature of LFP batteries and that's another box I would be able to check with the Sion.
When will they be starting deliveries??