It's amazing that an organization that has so many smart people are having these missteps and eye-brow-raising issues (Edge). You are right to point out the conflict of interest and his alleged questionable past.
I also thought the investigator did not seem qualified for a drowning/safety investigation when his name was announced, but it is even more disturbing after hearing what you turned up regarding his connection to a sponsor. I have to assume they got recommendations from somewhere- who recommended this person? It doesn’t make sense. And like you said, it could be fine. I hope it is, he is certainly an experienced investigator. However, it seems like another example of CrossFit having no clue how to handle a crisis situation with competence or transparency. They have botched almost every aspect of this from the moment Lazar went missing. If they want to rebuild trust, they MUST start paying attention to these details.
Castro knows exactly what proper protections looks like for swimmers. The guy was a fricken frogman for Christ's sake. This is a travesty that could have very easily been avoided. It's extremely frustrating.
They chose him because he has no concept of what he’s investigating. There is no transferability of his investigative skillset when it comes to Sport or anything remotely Fitness related. This, in and of itself, should be another major red flag for anyone with more than two brain cells to rub together. I expect this guy will go in, bill for 6weeks of work, spend 20min writing a thesis, and charge HQ an arm and a leg, just to say “there were safety protocols in effect, but this was just a freak accident that no one could have anticipated” - which is complete bullshit. But we’ll be expected to buy it. It all just seems too coincidental that they pick someone like this to perform an investigation of the FIRST death in our sport. It’s all just so slimy and big corpo. I hate what CrossFit is these days, and I’m like you- from the good ole days around 2010 or so (I started in 2008). I miss what it used to be, and this isn’t just rose-tinted glasses. Don Faul has to go.
So many good points made. I feel that CF knows these things about their hires, and just don't care. In addition, the main problem with the third party investigator is his abject lack of any skill, knowledge or experience in investigating fitness related incidents, or any water related incident. This seems to be more of a choice to protect CF, and I won't be surprised if nothing is found to be critical of how CF runs things, despite the tragedy. That is absolutely outrageous. In doing this, and refusing to engage with the athletes they are cementing their paternalistic and absolutely patronizing attitude that they are somehow doing athletes a favor , that they owe athletes nothing, and have no intention of focusing on safety or anything they would consider mainstream. I don't know how this can be changed, but unless athletes and affiliates, or the law, in some way steps in, there won't be any change. The blood of promising lives lost due to death or injury will continue to cry out with nobody willing to listen.
Great video. The only thing I could think is that Edge was chosen given his expertise in finance crimes. Maybe if the emphasis of the investigation will be how the budget for the games was used?
@@ptf55 yeah no problem! I was just trying to add the info here. Im not even 100% sure if the video is still up... but yeah, I remember watching it, and being surprised by his apology and how badly shaken he seemed.
@@ptf55 Oh, he certainly did NOT apologize for, admit to, and or acknowledge any "mess-ups" by himself and/or CrossFit. I've watched all of his videos before, during, and after these Games.
I think it is interesting in that you have been accused of trying to burn down CrossFit when the reality is that CrossFit appears to be the one who seems intent on burning down CrossFit.
I agree with you, but however, correct me if I’m wrong, we would want somebody that has an open opinion on everything that is not necessarily fully equipped for it understanding it’s important to be equipped, but the mind and outlook is so open on this and that he’s gonna look for things that normal ones wouldn’t look for
IMO the issues you raised are not so crucial. The border agency sponsors the CF games, not the other way around, and this guy is obviously getting paid by CF to investigate anyway. Re: lack of specific expertise, he has expertise in investigating. For the subject matter expertise he can rely on consultants like medics for example. Finally, CF may have done due diligence and found that the accusations you found via Google are just that. As you said in a previous episode, this is something internal to CF. What i m really looking for are the results of the police investigation
No requirement to consult with the PFAA or any other party on the selection of an agent to conduct the review. That being said, and as you've said, Edge's resume does not suggest appropriate experience in the field
The point about doing due diligence is well made....again. That coupled with the connection to a Games sponsor seems to imply that CFHQ doesn't really care enough to give the impression of transparency...and assumes we won't see these things. Just makes me sad.
@@constantlyvariedconversations As I was reflecting on the excellent points you made about due dilligence and care for community, I just thought that saying his name correctly is the least we can do to be respectful of him in these conversations. Overall, the discussion was very thought-provoking and I'm glad that someobdy brought this info to the table. 🤍
Why didn't they select a third-party "panel" with experts from FINA, WOWSA, etc who are experts in open water swimming safety? I've said this before and I will say it again, CrossFit continues to want to be considered a "professional" sport, yet they continue to make decisions and execute actions in very amateurish fashion that is doing nothing but damaging the reputation and legacy of not only the brand, but the sport itself. If athletes continue to lose confidence and feel "unheard" by the very thing they are dedicating all of their time and energy to, it won't be long until CrossFit is no longer a sport to be viewed on the world stage, but a community of like-minded people who have all decided they know enough about the methodology to abandon the CrossFit brand and forge ahead on their own. "A strong leader has the humility to listen, the confidence to challenge, and the wisdom to know when to quit arguing and to get on board."
Could you do a video explaining why there won’t be an investigation by the local police force over Lazars death? I’m pretty sure here in 🇬🇧 the police would have to do an investigation in to this.
Disclaimer, I’m not an attorney, but know enough about the law basics to helpfully help! Law enforcement in the US investigates criminal matters. If they determine that a death was criminal, they will investigate. Negligence and wrongful death fall under civil matters. Civil investigations can help criminal cases in some circumstances, but law enforcement in the US solely deals with criminal investigations. Some may say that this particular case should be criminal, as some other countries may have different laws, but under US law, if the medical examiner determines the manner of death is “accidental” law enforcement will not continue to investigate the matter. The 3rd party investigations as well as potential private investigations conducted by persons hired by family or friends could uncover some facts that might elicit a criminal investigation. The family has every right to bring a civil case of wrongful death or negligence and could be awarded monetary damages from the company. I hope that helps explain it a little better!
There should be: the sudden, accidental death of a fit young man during an organised sports competition? The death may be from natural causes but the circumstances scream negligence at some level. Surely the police/coroners would themselves be negligent if they did not look into the issue.
@@DrMattMurphy is the PFAA a recognised body like the NFL players union though how much power and influence do they actually have apart from Pat & Brent being there public faces ? I mean live & loud are only using them as advisors with very little final say look at last years wodapaluza were Brent was smashing the back of his head on the barrier and his pull-up bar was way to short.
Succinct and well articulated. Thank you. I do not think it was or is necessary for CFHQ to gain approval from the PFAA in choosing the investigator. 1) The PFAA is and has always been critical of CFHQ. I don't think I ever remember a time they expressed support for HQ at all. Both the PFAA and CFHQ seem to have an "us vs them" thing going and that's not helpful. 2) Would the PFAA pitch in to help cover the costs of the investigation? Highly, highly unlikely. This was something CFHQ volunteered to take on immediately following the tragedy. They are funding it completely and are entitled to use who they want to use. Other than that, I agree completely with your other criticisms. My first thought upon hearing who they chose was how completely unqualified he sounds for this type of investigation... even though he sounds like heck of an investigator. I quick Google search turns up multiple non-profits dedicated to water safety. Surely they could recommend qualified investigators to lead this.
You seem to misunderstand the role of the PFAA. They advocate for athletes. They’re not supposed to be bff’s with HQ. If HQ isn’t taking the athlete’s safety seriously then there would be a very obvious ‘us vs them’ approach from the PFAA since their concerns aren’t being addressed. If HQ cared about the athletes there would be more emphasis placed on coordinating with the PFAA. In major sports there are frequently disputes between athlete unions and the organization. Most recognizable; the NFL’s lack of concern with athlete safety.
I would like to think Peter Edge has enough management skill to assign people that have more specialised skills in sports safety. He sounds more like a investigation leader than one that directly investigates.
The least crossfit can do is get Don and Dave fired. Because top management makes decisions and is responsible for the consequences. Otherwise, I hope that many crossfit boxes will leave the organization like the box where I train.
Dave and the CEO - should be afraid of going to jail. So how “unbiased” is it really going to be, when CF is paying for the results and won’t allow the PFFA to be involved. Let’s be honest - it’s not unbiased, and it’ll be designed to keep Dave and the CEO out of jail.
It's amazing that an organization that has so many smart people are having these missteps and eye-brow-raising issues (Edge). You are right to point out the conflict of interest and his alleged questionable past.
Who knew Hiller walked so Wooley could run. Good video, dude.
Best comment 🦣
Great work John. Keep digging. Andrew seems to be taking a break.
I also thought the investigator did not seem qualified for a drowning/safety investigation when his name was announced, but it is even more disturbing after hearing what you turned up regarding his connection to a sponsor. I have to assume they got recommendations from somewhere- who recommended this person? It doesn’t make sense. And like you said, it could be fine. I hope it is, he is certainly an experienced investigator. However, it seems like another example of CrossFit having no clue how to handle a crisis situation with competence or transparency. They have botched almost every aspect of this from the moment Lazar went missing. If they want to rebuild trust, they MUST start paying attention to these details.
Castro knows exactly what proper protections looks like for swimmers. The guy was a fricken frogman for Christ's sake. This is a travesty that could have very easily been avoided. It's extremely frustrating.
Makes you wonder the conversations that happened leading up to the event. Because the cost savings were VERY visible.
They chose him because he has no concept of what he’s investigating. There is no transferability of his investigative skillset when it comes to Sport or anything remotely Fitness related.
This, in and of itself, should be another major red flag for anyone with more than two brain cells to rub together. I expect this guy will go in, bill for 6weeks of work, spend 20min writing a thesis, and charge HQ an arm and a leg, just to say “there were safety protocols in effect, but this was just a freak accident that no one could have anticipated” - which is complete bullshit. But we’ll be expected to buy it.
It all just seems too coincidental that they pick someone like this to perform an investigation of the FIRST death in our sport. It’s all just so slimy and big corpo. I hate what CrossFit is these days, and I’m like you- from the good ole days around 2010 or so (I started in 2008). I miss what it used to be, and this isn’t just rose-tinted glasses.
Don Faul has to go.
I love Hiller, but I prefer your measured and intelligent commentary. Thank you!
I love Hiller too. Thank you for the compliment though! Means so much.
Hiller has been a rockstar through this.
So many good points made. I feel that CF knows these things about their hires, and just don't care. In addition, the main problem with the third party investigator is his abject lack of any skill, knowledge or experience in investigating fitness related incidents, or any water related incident. This seems to be more of a choice to protect CF, and I won't be surprised if nothing is found to be critical of how CF runs things, despite the tragedy. That is absolutely outrageous. In doing this, and refusing to engage with the athletes they are cementing their paternalistic and absolutely patronizing attitude that they are somehow doing athletes a favor , that they owe athletes nothing, and have no intention of focusing on safety or anything they would consider mainstream. I don't know how this can be changed, but unless athletes and affiliates, or the law, in some way steps in, there won't be any change. The blood of promising lives lost due to death or injury will continue to cry out with nobody willing to listen.
If no change is made, athletes and fans will leave. They will move to other fitness contests.
Great video. The only thing I could think is that Edge was chosen given his expertise in finance crimes. Maybe if the emphasis of the investigation will be how the budget for the games was used?
Damn...this was really good. Very direct and fair. Do you think the reason Dave and others have not apologized for their mistakes is liability?
Probably but I’m guessing
Dave said "Im sorry" on the video he put up on his YT on the day Lazar past.
@@rycohen22 ...ok...thanks...he does not normally apologize for his mess-ups.
@@ptf55 yeah no problem! I was just trying to add the info here. Im not even 100% sure if the video is still up... but yeah, I remember watching it, and being surprised by his apology and how badly shaken he seemed.
@@ptf55 Oh, he certainly did NOT apologize for, admit to, and or acknowledge any "mess-ups" by himself and/or CrossFit. I've watched all of his videos before, during, and after these Games.
I think it is interesting in that you have been accused of trying to burn down CrossFit when the reality is that CrossFit appears to be the one who seems intent on burning down CrossFit.
No argument there
I agree with you, but however, correct me if I’m wrong, we would want somebody that has an open opinion on everything that is not necessarily fully equipped for it understanding it’s important to be equipped, but the mind and outlook is so open on this and that he’s gonna look for things that normal ones wouldn’t look for
Thank you for posting these videos. We’re being kept more informed by you and indeed a couple of others, than CF is doing. We stand united!
Unbiased third party? Lmao…..right
#transparent #abovereproach #comprimised #sodissapointing #dobettercrossfit #toomanyredflags #thankyoujohn 🙏🏼
IMO the issues you raised are not so crucial. The border agency sponsors the CF games, not the other way around, and this guy is obviously getting paid by CF to investigate anyway. Re: lack of specific expertise, he has expertise in investigating. For the subject matter expertise he can rely on consultants like medics for example. Finally, CF may have done due diligence and found that the accusations you found via Google are just that. As you said in a previous episode, this is something internal to CF. What i m really looking for are the results of the police investigation
There won’t be one. The police aren’t investigating.
spot on.
Concise and wise information. Good work John.
Yikes !
This is fantastic. Thank you so much.
My question us: what about with police? There is no implication to take the police engaged in the investigation??
I suspect Edge will bring in the people who do have experience running open water swim events (also third parties) to advise him.
CFHQ needs to reduce Lazar to a hero WOD as quickly as possible, and they’re doing a good job of it. “You loved a sport that didn’t love you back.”
Let’s be really clear - this was gross negligence and a breach of duty,
No requirement to consult with the PFAA or any other party on the selection of an agent to conduct the review. That being said, and as you've said, Edge's resume does not suggest appropriate experience in the field
Extremely good video and the issues that you brought up.
Very, very good sir! Two! Thumbs up button!
Didn't the police conduct an investigation?
The point about doing due diligence is well made....again. That coupled with the connection to a Games sponsor seems to imply that CFHQ doesn't really care enough to give the impression of transparency...and assumes we won't see these things. Just makes me sad.
His name is pronounced LAZZ-uhr JU-kitch
Not an intentional slight my friend.
@@constantlyvariedconversations As I was reflecting on the excellent points you made about due dilligence and care for community, I just thought that saying his name correctly is the least we can do to be respectful of him in these conversations. Overall, the discussion was very thought-provoking and I'm glad that someobdy brought this info to the table. 🤍
Whenever the potential at-fault entity PAYS the third-party investigation company, it's inherently biased toward the person paying them.
Why didn't they select a third-party "panel" with experts from FINA, WOWSA, etc who are experts in open water swimming safety? I've said this before and I will say it again, CrossFit continues to want to be considered a "professional" sport, yet they continue to make decisions and execute actions in very amateurish fashion that is doing nothing but damaging the reputation and legacy of not only the brand, but the sport itself. If athletes continue to lose confidence and feel "unheard" by the very thing they are dedicating all of their time and energy to, it won't be long until CrossFit is no longer a sport to be viewed on the world stage, but a community of like-minded people who have all decided they know enough about the methodology to abandon the CrossFit brand and forge ahead on their own. "A strong leader has the humility to listen, the confidence to challenge, and the wisdom to know when to quit arguing and to get on board."
Really great points!
Great breakdown
Mic drop
Dear lord…. This just sucks
How many athletes are actually members of the PFAA? Do they speak for all the athletes?
Could you do a video explaining why there won’t be an investigation by the local police force over Lazars death?
I’m pretty sure here in 🇬🇧 the police would have to do an investigation in to this.
It was not a criminal death. Why would the police investigate an accidental drowning?
@@catteel6448gross negligence but we may have to wait to see if a lawsuit is pursued by the family
Fairly confident there is a criminal investigation by local police based on their statements.
Disclaimer, I’m not an attorney, but know enough about the law basics to helpfully help! Law enforcement in the US investigates criminal matters. If they determine that a death was criminal, they will investigate. Negligence and wrongful death fall under civil matters. Civil investigations can help criminal cases in some circumstances, but law enforcement in the US solely deals with criminal investigations. Some may say that this particular case should be criminal, as some other countries may have different laws, but under US law, if the medical examiner determines the manner of death is “accidental” law enforcement will not continue to investigate the matter. The 3rd party investigations as well as potential private investigations conducted by persons hired by family or friends could uncover some facts that might elicit a criminal investigation. The family has every right to bring a civil case of wrongful death or negligence and could be awarded monetary damages from the company.
I hope that helps explain it a little better!
@@kschilli12 thanks I guess I could have explained the criminal and being accidental part better….
👍👍👍
Does anyone know if there is a police investigation happening?
There should be: the sudden, accidental death of a fit young man during an organised sports competition? The death may be from natural causes but the circumstances scream negligence at some level. Surely the police/coroners would themselves be negligent if they did not look into the issue.
Great thoughts. Most of all if they cared about athletes they’d get PFAA approval.
@@DrMattMurphy is the PFAA a recognised body like the NFL players union though how much power and influence do they actually have apart from Pat & Brent being there public faces ?
I mean live & loud are only using them as advisors with very little final say look at last years wodapaluza were Brent was smashing the back of his head on the barrier and his pull-up bar was way to short.
Succinct and well articulated. Thank you.
I do not think it was or is necessary for CFHQ to gain approval from the PFAA in choosing the investigator.
1) The PFAA is and has always been critical of CFHQ. I don't think I ever remember a time they expressed support for HQ at all. Both the PFAA and CFHQ seem to have an "us vs them" thing going and that's not helpful.
2) Would the PFAA pitch in to help cover the costs of the investigation? Highly, highly unlikely. This was something CFHQ volunteered to take on immediately following the tragedy. They are funding it completely and are entitled to use who they want to use.
Other than that, I agree completely with your other criticisms. My first thought upon hearing who they chose was how completely unqualified he sounds for this type of investigation... even though he sounds like heck of an investigator. I quick Google search turns up multiple non-profits dedicated to water safety. Surely they could recommend qualified investigators to lead this.
You seem to misunderstand the role of the PFAA. They advocate for athletes. They’re not supposed to be bff’s with HQ. If HQ isn’t taking the athlete’s safety seriously then there would be a very obvious ‘us vs them’ approach from the PFAA since their concerns aren’t being addressed.
If HQ cared about the athletes there would be more emphasis placed on coordinating with the PFAA.
In major sports there are frequently disputes between athlete unions and the organization. Most recognizable; the NFL’s lack of concern with athlete safety.
I would like to think Peter Edge has enough management skill to assign people that have more specialised skills in sports safety. He sounds more like a investigation leader than one that directly investigates.
I hope so!
Who is paying? That will show bias.
Entonces terminará siendo una investigación dirigida por la misma entidad que cometió la falta. Bien 👍🙄
I concur
Sounds like HQ is run like an old boys club.
The least crossfit can do is get Don and Dave fired. Because top management makes decisions and is responsible for the consequences. Otherwise, I hope that many crossfit boxes will leave the organization like the box where I train.
Lazer Jukich is how you pronounce Lazar Dukic. Thank you for the video.
Sorry about that! Im southern. I can barely pronounce my own name correctly
@@constantlyvariedconversations 😅😂
Dave and the CEO - should be afraid of going to jail. So how “unbiased” is it really going to be, when CF is paying for the results and won’t allow the PFFA to be involved.
Let’s be honest - it’s not unbiased, and it’ll be designed to keep Dave and the CEO out of jail.
Solid video. And the points you made were direct and to the point. 🦣