"Doom WASN'T 3D!"
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- Опубліковано 8 сер 2020
- A juicy memey Phoenix Wright-induced version inspired by Doomkid's video: • Game Theory is WRONG, ...
This is meant to combat misinfo still being spread by The Game Theorists to over 2 million people: • Doom WASN'T 3D! - Digr...
Made with objection.lol/
The original objection.lol version I made has some cutting errors and a dialogue error that I edited out. Although the dialogue and the scripting took me about 3 hours, I couldn't have done it without that great website.
No disrespect towards Ronnie "Oni" Edwards and his family and friends. May he rest in peace. I believe that everyone associated with The Game Theorists cares about information, so this video was made with good intentions to both entertain and enlighten.
Honestly, this argument misses the point. It's really just an argument over what defines a video game as 3D in the first place.
Liberally, someone can define a 3D game as one where movement is possible in 3 axes, up and down, left and right, and forward and back. In this case, yes, Doom is 3D. While you can't jump, projectiles have height deviation and actors have height calculations made.
On the other extreme, and in perfect pedantry, it can be pointed out that no video game is 3D, because what we perceive is simply a set of pixels with height and width (no depth). Anything beyond those pixels is just a series of calculations and complex instructions that give the illusion of 3D space.
To me, I think the answer lies somewhere in between. Video games only give the illusion of being one homogeneous *thing*; in reality, they are a combination of many different aspects working in tandem. In this way, Doom is 3D, but not "fully".
Doom's sprites are 2D (duh), and its level design is 2D (hence why no room over room and why level maps are flat), but once you actually load into the game, things like projectile height calculations are enough to classify it as 3D. Plus, even in the very first level you can end up falling off a ledge and have actual momentum in the Z axis.
What made Quake "True" 3D is that every aspect (level design, sprites being replaced with models, etc) could be expressed in 3 dimensions.
Your comment was one of the most interesting and insightful comments I’ve read related to this debate. The purpose of my video (and many other similar videos related to mine, including the one it was based off of) was to shed off misconceptions about what the Doom engine was capable of. Honestly it certainly is a grey area on how you define what 3D is, and John Carmack who was the brains behind Doom has always thought Doom to be a 2.5D game. Thank you!
@@UndeadRyker Likewise, I learned a fair bit from this video, specifically the fact that some "limitations" of the engine are simply design choices made by id Software that are possible to jury rig with the original game's source code. So, thank you as well.
In perfect pedantry, it can be pointed out that your eyesight is also 2D because all a human eye "sees" are rays of light hitting the retina. It's the brain that generates the "illusion of 3D" (the information about depth, distance etc.) by combining inputs from both eyes, their relative angle, level of focus + more and applies some quite heavy processing and analysis on this all before you get what you actually perceive.
@Frax Reversed 2.5D then?
Summary of your comment: No video game is 3D, but contrary to what some people say, Doom gives the illusion of 3D.
Oh my god, this is PURE gold. I laughed out loud multiple times! Really well done!
Doomkid thank you!! Glad to hear that :)
The Game Theorist should never be used as a trust-able source.
That why he ded
Especially when he pumps out dozens upon dozens of cringy FNAF theories.
Game Liars
(Stupid Joke...
Also, WTF why they are making milion of "FNAF theories", even if Desert Bus has more lore than this.)
I say that a lot. And a lot of peoppe don't get why but Game Theory doesn't care enough to put in the effort to fact check his work.
@@linhero797 In the early GT he had actual calculus and lore elements but nowadays it's mostly assumptions, I began to dislike him since the infamous "Sans is Ness" theory.
*"THREE. D."*
"tRiPpLe. Eyyyyy." -Jum Sterling
doom eternal is 2d
Real life is 2D because our eyes display our surroundings to us in the form of 2D images.
@@UndeadRyker My Tv Monitor is flat, So my life is a lie.
Clearly, Doom Eternal is 1d.
@@UndeadRyker that would only be true if you had one eye, but two eyes give you depth perception allowing the ability to see into the third dimension
the perfect balance of meme and knowledge. many would have it one way or the other but not you. a legend.
engineer gaming
Ehem... *DEMOKNIGHT TF2*
The reason why there cannot be rooms over rooms in DOOM is because the environments are rendered on a 2D plain, like A Link to the Past, where it has stairs and platforms, which is also why we refer to the verticals axis as the Z axis, even though the z axis on a graph is the secondary horizontal line intersecting at the origin. When you press up on the d pad in LTTP, you don’t call it moving on the z axis, you call it the y axis. However, in doom, while the environments are rendered on a 2D plain, it is calculating height on the z axis. I’d liken it to how old PlayStation 1 JRPGs and survival horrors work. The environments are pre rendered and are just a jpeg, however, there are walk meshes placed in the right places to permit 3D movement and simulate depth. The environments are 2D, but the game is 3D. Keep in mind that example isn’t at all how DOOM is rendered, I’m just making an example that is kinda similar. DOOM’s maps are rendered in 2D, but that 2D is being calculated and mapped to a 3D space that the actors occupy.
You dont know what you are talking about. rendering is drawing the frames, which happens always on 2d, as the screen you look at is 2d. even in modern games. Which one is the Z axis doesnt really matter, its your free choice when you program 3d. You think that 3d is somehow magical, but maybe you should learn how it works instead of this bullshit. 3d is nothing else than having variables for x,y,z simple as that. Doom levels are fully 3d, and so are the objects poistions in it. Just because the camera can not rotate that doesnt make it less 3d. If you stop rotating your head, you only rotate it like doom, then the world around you is suddenly "rendered in 2d" ????? NO!
My perspective on this.
Doom uses psuedo-3d rendering not 3d.
But everything is still handled in 3d, notice how you can jump off a platform without just snapping onto the floor below you. Also notice how you can aim up. This is most obvious with projectiles. Game theory claims that this 2dness is why you can shoot monsters above you but if you were to press up against the platform that the demon is on you'll just hit the wall.
Basically, you don't need polygons to make a 3d game.
"Basically, you don't need polygons to make a 3d game."
And people seems to think that only polygonal 3D (such as Quake) counts despite the fact we got isometric 3D, Vector 3D and scaled 3D games before.
Not everything is handled in 3d. A bunch of stuff uses only 2d math because it's faster.
Really, Doom's a weird transition period where stuff had an XY location and a Z height that *some* things respected, rather than the three dimensions being effectively interchangable like in Quake or Descent. In true 3d space, as long as everyone agrees on which way gravity is (or, in the case of Descent, agrees that there isn't any) rotating the entire universe 90 degrees in any direction doesn't change a thing. In Doom, it'd break the gameplay because suddenly you couldn't walk past a zombie in a (say) north south direction.
Doom does have polygons tho, in the terrain
@@mr.tweaty What do you mean?
@@mr.tweaty In a mathematical sense, yeah, but in an engine development sense does BSP geometry really count? I feel like it shouldn't. They're not rendered anything like what we typically think of as polygons.
You can move forwards/backwards (1d), left/right (2d), up/down (3d)
You can walk up stairs, you can jump down elevator shafts, the game is 3d
@DamnMerasmus Not really bait when it's objectively true
First time Phoenix ever lost a case.
Now if you could just get Gianni Matrigano to read out this entire dialogue
Chonky good
Thank you! ♥
1:20 OBJECTION! this is where you are wrong, Wright. You can't jump or look up/down yes, but you can FALL!
When I first saw game theory's video,I screamed my head off saying that the 'reasons' that is was a top down shooter were purposely put in.
5:05 OBJECTION! that's because of the limitation by the map. Ergo, we never see a room above another room for this very reason!
Here take my like
3:47 it's a bug. Either that or they intentionally added it in to save time.
they added it to save precious processing time on old terrible computers from the 90's, plenty of source ports allow you to remove this infinite height
Im honestly surprised you didn't point out that in later doom engine games you can run over and under enmies and objects
Exactly. What was the first game to do that, I think Heretic? Like the second Doom Engine game?
@@linhero797 Heretic did impliment this feature. Though not as fully as say HeXeN or Strife. And this feature even was implimemted partially in an actual Doom game. That being doom 64. Though not for monsters and instead only for decor.
@@breadbunbun I like to imagine the monsters are pulling a LeBron and jumping up (Hundreds of feet at times) and pulling you down in Doom 64.
"Real life" isn't properly 3d because sometimes people walk into things unintentionally
Doom 1 and 2 are technically 2d, it just uses a engine to make it look 3d
Well technically doom is rendered in 2d and made as a top down 2d game but drawn in 3d
renderign and drawing is the same thing, what are you talking about ?
You know what? I think Edgeworth's case is weak here. It's true you wouldn't have to refactor everything to add height checks, just rewrite the collisions. But the fact is that, as shipped, the game tests collisions between most things only in 2d, with occasional exceptions where it does some extra work in 3d space.
Plus, some of the restrictions, like the lack of freelook, were decisions made based on technical limitations. The way Doom renders the world gets distorted very rapidly as your view stops being parallel to the XY plane. It looks *terrible*. So simply don't allow it.
That's not enough to call Doom fully 2d. But it's decidedly not fully 3d either. Its a transitional game.
... Also, I think you flipped their roles. The prosecution should be accusing Doom of being 2d, and Phoenix should be defending it.
Heretic and Hexen has allowed freelook anyway even though the y-shearing looked terrible and distorted. But functionally, Doom still is capable of calculating collisions on 3 axis.
As for their roles, it’s all subjective for interpretation. ;)
"The way Doom renders the world gets distorted very rapidly as your view stops being parallel to the XY plane. It looks *terrible*."
This was itself an intentional limitation for the sake of PCs at the time. The engine *could* figure out vertical perspective without much trouble, but to save on memory they just work it out for looking straight ahead and cache the results, or... something like that. It isn't that the world is warping so much as the world *not* warping the way it's supposed to.
@@colbyboucher6391 It really couldn't. You'd have to rewrite the entire renderer, it's built around the assumption that your view is parallel to the floor and ceiling, and the walls are all perfectly vertical. You'll note there's no slopes or walls that tilt anywhere in the game. That's why Quake was such a big deal - it *could* do those things.
Not that it really matters, the more important thing is that Doom is fun as hell, pun intended.
Bro said the n word
You could simulate the height of a projectile in a 2D game by assigning a z-axis value to regions.
Say a demon shoots a fireball from a high up area. The fireball could have its height based on a predetermined z-axis value for the region the fireball was shot from.
If it is on top of an enemy it checks if the z value of the enemy is in a range based on a preset constant height value of the enemy and projectile.
(for above projectiles: projectileZ - (targetZ + TargetHeight) < (projectileHeight/2) )
(for below projectiles: targetZ - projectileZ < (projectileHeight/2) )
Effectively, the projectile is phasing through the enemy in a 2D representation of the game. I'm not familiar with Doom's code but it's likely it is doing something like that.
Doom is not doing something like that. Cacodemons can move along the Z axis and launch fireballs from their Z position, not from a predetermined Z value based on the sector it was shot from.
if you have x,y and you assign a third z value, you are not simulating, but moving to 3d from 2d. You have 2 dimensional coordinates you have 2d, you have 3? you have 3d, simple as that.
John Romero has also stated that one of the secrets in MAP15 being unreachable is intentional. Eventually he's gonna begin to state random bugs as intentional too. I think he's lying for PR purposes. Remember Daikatana?
So what's your point? Not being able to look up or down is a bug that John Romero is lying about?
@@UndeadRyker Not quite a bug, but either something they didn't pay attention to or that they intended to include but didn't work out very well (perhaps to do with the control scheme? btw og Doom *did* support mouse) so they scrapped. But of course that's not really a good example of Romero lying about things being intentional because it's pretty petty, There are more... scandalous claims.
@@wallabra Regarding being able to look up or down, it's definitely intentional. Autoaim is coded into the game and it actually does adjust the z-position of where the shots will land. I have heard that they scrapped freelook because it didn't look good with the Y-shearing of their renderer they used(?) but even if they intended freelook in the first iteration of Doom, they still designed autoaim for it which makes the lack of freelook intentional in the final product. Even the Icon of Sin for Doom 2 focused on using the fact that the player wasn't able to use freelook.
Also, lack of freelook was still unchanged in Doom 2. It's definitely intentional since they could've done more changes but they didn't even when they got extra time with Doom 2 while using the same engine.
As for OG Doom supporting the mouse, it's known that it does. No one here has said that it didn't. If you're referring to the people that say that the original or "best" way to play Doom was using the keyboard, it's probably because they just stuck with their keyboard layout and it's just nostalgia talking. Even the official Doom manual has suggested that and I quote, "When you're comfortable playing the game, try using the keyboard and mouse simultaneously." right on page 9. Of course, that was only for the mail-order editions so people who didn't get their mailed copy of Doom at the time just rolled with the default setup. But anyway, this doesn't really have anything to do with this lol.
Not defending John Romero's lying about stuff like MAP15 (source would be nice though), but I think there's too much evidence that suggests that the lack of freelook is intentional rather than a bug or last-minute feature. It just seems too intentional to code auto-aim when they could've just unrestricted looking.
So it's 3D after all...
Bullshit with that logic Contra on the NES would be considred an 3D game.
Good argument. Stacked proto-voxels that can only be seen in one direction are not 3d.
We don't see rooms over rooms because the map is 2D. Otherwise you would need a 3D map like in Metroid Prime. The reason the map is 2D is for the CPUs at the time to be able to handle this game. Basically, the game is 3D but it's made in a way that the computer thinks it's 2D so that it runs faster. All these restrictions in this game were in place for performance reasons.
lol nice joke. but for real it get on my nerves when people who think its 2d use the pointless room over room argument
@@reelvonicWhat's funny is that later Doom Engines Source Ports were capable of doing 3D Room over Room just fine by modifying sectors and using tricks in their display.
And thanks to the A.C.E Engine we see why Carmack didn't do it. A single 3D floor turns the A.C.E Engine from Doom's 35 to 20 real quick. As well as a lot of other performance issues that stem from the A.C.E Engine being capable of New Doom stuff on the original MS DOS hardware.
It’s 2.5D lol.
Thats not a thing. Only a slang term used by idiots who cant accept its 3d.
@@reelvonic Is 2.5D even a thing really?
@@linhero797 i literally said its not
Imagine thinking that Stronghold is a 3D game because it has functioning Z axis.
There is actually no way to tell from looking at the screen whether Doom renders from a 3D scene description with simplified geometry to screenspace and then applies artificial restrictions such as not being able to look up or down without distortion or whether it renders from a 2D scene description to screenspace with those restrictions inherent in itself. However, either way, it will look 3D in screen space. Knowing whether or not it is only pseudo-3D requires knowledge about the internal game engine itself. So, You would be forgiven for thinking it was real 3D.
Actually, that's not true. There are multiple ways to tell just from gameplay, that the calculations are at least partially in 3D. The example in this video of the fireball going over the zombie's head is an example. If there were no height values, then the fireball would hit the zombie, but it doesn't. The same with being able to "jump" from platform to platform because you have to know if the player's height is enough to make it, otherwise, he has to hit the wall and fall down. If there's no wall height, and no player height, this movement is not possible.
@@rameynoodles152 Also, when you jump off the ledge into a pit of lava, the lava only starts damaging you once you hit the ground and not before. Without a Z coordinate, it's impossible to tell if the player is already standing on the ground or still in the air (and to display vertical position correctly in the game).
@@SMJSmoK You're right. In fact, there are so many ways to tell that this game is at least partially 3D in terms of game mechanics without even looking at the source code that it's baffling that there's so many people that still think it's a 2D game under the hood.
It's really just a testament to how easy it is to BS people into a belief, and a testament to how so many people are unwilling to think for themselves and look to a seeming authority figure to tell them what to think.
and funny enough, even scratching the surface of the source code a little bit makes it obvious that the game logic does take place in 3 dimensions. in the movement functions x, y and z variables are all over the place.
@@rameynoodles152 Even more amazing is that the source code is public. It's easy enough to read and you can clearly see plenty of proper 3D embedded in the code logic.
Let's settle this once and for all. On a technical level, doom is a 2d game. However, it uses clever programming to appear and play 3d. It's technically 2d, but practically 3d.
that makes no sense, it's either 3d or its not, and no, the "3d-ness" of doom is not a trick, "things" as they are called in the code have an x y and z. The auto aim/hitscan projects a line in 3d space toward the target. Second, the renderer uses 3d projection for walls, its just that it uses many shortcuts to speed up rendering. Saying it's "technically" 2d imo is wrong, but I guess it depends on what you mean by "technically" the source code is out there, read and see for yourself. Also, I've programmed a doom like engine before and you have to use a lot of 3d math to do the rendering, just not as much as a "full 3d" engine, since you aren't rendering triangles but axis-aligned rectangles.
Personally I would call it 3d, but people who call it 2.5d aren't wrong I guess. But doom is NOT 2d.
no. doom source code is open to read, its deals with 3d coordinates most of the time. also just by plaing it you should know. how does rooms have different heights with only 2 dimensions? jesus christ.
@@kangarht that can easily be replicated with one-way gates and clever graphic design. Plus, if it was true 3d, why are the enemies infinitely tall?
@@Bread.Offender what can be replicated? have you seen doom gameplay? each "room" has height widht depth, that is 3 dimensions, each entity in this 3 dimensional world can travel across 3 dimensions (up/down, fwd backwd, left right fex), how is this only 2 dimensions I beg your pardon ? in some cases true 3d checks are skipped, in case of enemies they are not really infinietely tall, only the collision check disregards height. however projectiles fex can still travel above enemies/player head or under, here the true 3d collision check is done. A monster/player can not enter a door too small.
@@kangarht doom is not a real 3d game. It uses what's known as billboarding, which makes a game look and feel 3d (which I'm not denying, by the way), while in truth not technically being 3d. It uses a 2d map with some clever programming. It's less of a "true" 3d and more of a 2.5d that is functionally 3d.