Honestly if the store won’t let you play there I’d never buy an item there. You support where you play and playing there is the only reason I’d over spend by buying it from them directly.
Yeah no kidding, with how easy online shopping is these days, the only reason to go to a local store is if you run out of glue/paint in the middle of a project, and to support the "community". If there's no community there playing games, why would I spend money there when I can probably find it cheaper online somewhere?
Indeed. The places I play at I always buy a box of something for one of my armies before heading home. If GW doesn't want that $50 every time I play a game I can take it elsewhere.
@@BouncingTribbles Right, I want to support them, that's why I always buy stuff before leaving as a thanks for the table space. I've seen too many small gaming stores go under because the patrons just took advantage of the place and spent no money there.
Really was never an option in the US. Least for me. All the GW warhammer stores are super tiny and have very small tables, usually a grand total of 2. There was no possible way to just walk into a store and pick up a game with a random. Staff are nice but yeah
Weren't there these huge cement-complexes GW made dedicated for pl;aying games in? I swear I saw some threads about that on /tg/ once. They were mostly shut down early-mid 2000's I think
@@viorp5267 Yeah, there was a battle bunker in Chicago, I think, but that closed down. I think there might be one in Seattle still, but I haven't checked in a long while.
Not a big thing here in South Africa either, there is no store in my city where I can purchase models, I have to order mine (Just started two months back) from another city in the country.
NE : "keep players inline, while we have a million other things to do" Me walking past the GW shop multiple times every day "I never see that guy doing anything but sitting around every time I pass this store"
So lucky my local GW store (Texas) not only lets us play in store, but organizes events and even provides hobby space for us. Sad to see that may not be the norm elsewhere
@@PeterIsATeacher I've been to the Grapevine store a couple of times over the years! Sadly I'm in Louisiana, so it's like a 3-4 hour drive to go there. :
Used to play in the first one man store small though it was there was usually 10 people in there all playing games all day. It helped me so much socially as a kid and i think its something that really needs to come back
We used to have a cool independent place near me a while back. It was like a food court for games. There were multiple vendors with different "shops" around the outside, and then a huge space with tables and chairs in the middle. It was a large warehouse so there was always something going on, you could book tables and set up ypur own tournies if you wanted. But sadly like most places the rent got too high and they were forced out.
The game store I play at actually values us, we all know each others names, were all friends. I love it when curious people come up and watch a game, ask questions about our armies and the game in general and show genuine interest. Then when those people bring their army in to play or buy models during their visit I feel like I did my part. I play deathgaurd and not trying to gloat but my army looks very nice and when people see them on the table they tend be excited to spectate, in turn that boosts my confidence and makes me value my time at the store even more. When you play at the store your almost like an ambassador for your store, I always try my best to present myself as respectfully as possible. I'm an HVAC technician so I always carry myself professionally.
@@northernexile I remember going to into my local store in the early 90's being introduced to the hobby a friend. The was a 2nd edition 40k going (Ork's VS Space Marine). All wonderfully painted and on customer made terrain. I was hooked at that point. I stayed in the store all afternoon and watched the game. One of the players even let me control a unit of Ork's. At the end of the day I went a way with 2 boxes of Space Ork Goffs, 1 box of gretchen and Gazghul Thraka blister pack along with paints and brushes, glues etc. My point is that my own personal experience was that it was the players that got me hooked on the hobby and not the intro game. And those players, I am still friends with today even though we no longer player the hobby. That being said, I remember one kid that used to come in on a regular basis who never showered, or the another kid that would regularly steal other peoples models or rule books. And the anger that some go into when losing a game or die roll. It was always the few the would ruin the afternoon / evening for everyone else.
I lost interest when they stopped selling other companies products and just sold their own. Same with White Dwarf magazine, used to be okay when you could see articles on TSR, GDW etc.
If I never saw a game being played I never would have bought models. I didn't care about painting and collecting when I saw the boxes. It wasn't until I saw people playing the game that I thought to myself 'that's what I want to do'. If I never saw the game being played I never would have bought anything from GW.
Long post incoming: As someone that used to work for a FLGS from 2009 to 2015, It's physically impossible for me to agree with you more. The amount of people that don't know what hygiene is? More than I'm comfortable admitting. The amount of folks that were basically dropped off by their parents the moment we opened and picked up when we closed? More than I care to admit. The amount of swearing and crass jokes? Far too many. I'm honestly surprised we turned a profit sometimes. We had a LOT of play space available, that was sort of our selling point, but we rarely charged for the space except for huge release events, like magic the Gathering or Yugioh. Honestly, paid events turned away the worst of the folks we had to deal with on a daily basis. Truly, bad players hurts a business about as much as bad staff. With all that being said, I cannot fathom why they don't have a membership program to let people play on their tables. Modest fee, minimum requirements, boom, you'd have that standard you wished to achieve. Instead, GW is surrendering control of the hobby to FLGS stores that are under-cutting GW stores anyway. How many UA-cam creators have affiliate links or links to ebay shops that give customers 10 - 25% off MSRP? Basically all of them. They produce, but they don't bother to curate or guide the direction their game is going. Instead, they basically have to monitor the results of everyone else's tournaments without providing software or guidance (something that card game companies figured out eons ago), whereas companies like Fantasy Flight provide a system of guidance and support for tournaments in a standardized format so balancing can happen in real time. GW could definitely stand to gain by looking at how Fantasy Flight and Card Game companies do things (Wizards of the Coast, Konami, Bushiroad, etc). I truly do sympathize. Buy something, don't smell like trash, don't act like trash, keep the food and drinks outside the store. It's not that hard, and yet, we keep getting treated like the adult day care for some people. But we have to find a middle road somewhere, for the sake of the hobby.
I have never understood why people can have such poor hygiene. Personally, when I last played in a GW store ( back in the 90s) I remember this guy who stank came in. I told him to F off home and wash because he smelled like a corpse.
I really think part of the problem is that GW (from the Bad Times to the present,) as NE referred to with their mission statement, has switched focus from making games to selling models. It's been a LONG time since I can remember changes to the game that were designed to make the game better rather than to sell the latest models. But I am also a disgruntled Specialist Games collector who played Epic, so keep that in mind. 😆
@@briansmaller7443 Yeah, it's an immense turn-off to anyone present. Like, seriously. Get off the computer/video games for 10 minutes and take a shower. Take a break from whatever you're doing and do your laundry. Its not that hard. But for some reason, we keep attracting the people that just... don't for some reason.
@@briansmith303 Yeah, we really need to bring back Epic and Batlefleet Gothic something fierce. Can you imagine doing a full campaign that has Battlefleet, Epic, Warhammer 40k, and Kill Team games all part of the same Campaign? That would be amazing.
My view: is it a store or a games club? If its a games club then police the members. If its a store then you have no right to exclude anyone who isn't being rude and aggressive. Imagine walking into a shop and being told "I'm sorry not sorry but you aren't good enough to shop here." It's like something out of pretty woman. That news gets around and pretty soon everyone's buying online or finding other venues. If this didn't happen then Geek Retreat wouldn't be a thing. GW hasn't been visitor friendly for decades.
The local club I play at has slowly transitioned from playing in a GW store into playing at a venue. Now we have no direction from GW employees, I've seen a rise in other wargames and a massive spike in 3D printed models. GW not allowing us to play in store means there is no incentive to keep buying their models. I don't mind playing Vs a 3D printed army if it looks cool, and I think a lot of others feel the same way.
14:57 It's sad that the whole thing boils down to "if you don't pay for a service, then you're the product". I mean it's not wrong, but it's sad that making a space where people can have fun playing can't be the goal. The goal is to to manipulate people into working for you by being free advertisement. Depressing. 16:50 And what if someone just wants to play a game? :/
They really need to allow games in stores. Having moved a few months ago I went into my nearest GW because that seemed like the easiest way to find out about gaming in the local area, meet people who play and really get a feel for the community. The shop was completely devoid of customers and then found out that they don't allow games in store. Since then I've basically dropped out of the hobby entirely just out of not knowing where to find the main hub of players.
"No games in store" must be more of a UK thing than a US thing. I've never encountered a GW store that flat-out bans in-store gaming in North America. Now, some may be more friendly to it than others. Some are simply too small to have more than one or two games going on at once. Add to the fact that most stores don't have restroom facilities available for gamers. Game stores tend to bring in oddballs. People who might not leave a good impression on new folks, I agree with you there. The worst are the ones who buy nothing at the store, yet expect to be given gaming space. I've run into gamers who brag that they get all their models off of eBay and won't make store purchases. Those types are a pox on the hobby.
No it’s not just a UK thing, at least not in Indianapolis. I use to buy stuff from the GW store in Indy but the manager who works there now is not welcoming AT ALL. Sure he seems nice enough and may be a great guy outside of the store but he’s really REALLY pushy and it drives me crazy. The only reason I go there now is for store exclusives, that’s it. It’s really too bad. I don’t mind paying msrp for minis as long as I have a place to play and feel welcome. Granted the store is tiny and maybe we can’t play games there but if I just felt welcome to look around and make a decision without feeling as though I’m annoying the manager I’d go there more often, but as it stands? I’m good. I’ll buy from other stores that at least pretend to appreciate their customers.
Here in Japan also. There are like 7 stores in the country, but when they are big enough, they allow games. Akihabara opened a Warhammer Cafe actually, that encourages hanging out, drinking coffee, browse the minis and books. They got large dioramas, several big scale tables ro play and designated painting areas. Harajuku has playtables, I think Chiba as well.
I have to be honest with you North, I do think Games Workshop have lost touch to the human aspect. That said, its a much deeper problem in all areas of the hobby. In regards to the Store-Games, I think it brings the attention of customers out from the Street-Level. There's always some rotten apples, however I know through your history as a manager you gave it all a middle-ground and at least kept a honest face. A lot of it should be said through the wisdom of moral standards - Where Credit Is Due - Respect Is Earned - It just sad, that a few can destroy a hobby area like that. Its one of the main reaons why I lost interest in the hobby, when it comes to overreacting man-childs who can't behave themselves because of their damaged ego the rest of us needs to constantly hear from. I know you get both sides to this ongoing horror, more than most to be honest with you. But its the lacking of both social skills, common critical thinking and that respect towards others that really kills the hobby when we talk about people's behavior. Its more or less why I only stick to friendly related games, 9th really killed it for me to be honest because of the tiresome competition-creep we get constantly.
It is not just an issue with the hobby, it is an issue in every aspect of the economy. As investors assert ever more influence over the companies they invest in, said companies care less and less about the customers, less and less about their product/services, and only care about the investors. Their first thought is investors, their last thought is investors their only thought is investors.
Honestly 8th and 9th have both felt lije they focus more on casual and naritive games. Sure they have stuff for the competitive crowd but they no longer pull the cart.
My local store had an “ I don’t actually want to do this “ post on their Facebook page asking people to make sure they are clean and smelling good before entering. They point out it’s a minority that will ruin it for others. So I can agree with the stance of those people being asked to sort themselves out. Is a shame as seeing people gaming and talking rules while it was friendly really impressed my partner as she never knew of it all before meeting me.
It's a horrible conversation to have to have, even indirectly via a social media post. Worst conversation I had as a line manager was with someone about their personal hygiene and to make matters worse they spoke barely a word of English so I had to use a translator. To this day I don't know if they mirrored my carefully chosen to be as inoffensive as possible words or just said "this guy says you stink and need a bath"
@@phoenixheart79 1999 on the coach to the NIA for Gamesday and Golden Demon I was standing behind a regular in the service station and it was not pleasant. This post was certainly one the manager did not want to write but had to do so.
Had this problem in a gaming store I used to frequent in South Wales. A few friends and myself used to go there on a fairly frequent basis, to buy and play Magic The Gathering, buy roleplaying merch, models & paints. Then there was this handful of people who were at the shop from the time it was open till the time the shutters went down, They used to bring food and drink into the store, think they owned the place. They were loud, obnoxious, if someone was just browsing the shelves or book racks they would ask that individual what they were looking for. Basically thinking they worked there or even owned the store. I had actually seen people open the door, take a step inside, see this group and how loud they were then walk back out. Needless to say the store closed down, last time I walked past it was a coffee shop. Just goes to shop that if you want to gain new customers and keep them you need to portray a warm friendly atmosphere, not a place for arrogant unkempt morons to gather.
Playing in store was a massive help for me and my friend as teenagers learning to play early 5th edition. We don't play there anymore but it sure was a big influence
There are two options in dealing with people who smell, have no social skills and are unpleasant to be around: You get rid of them or you help them. Everybody wants to be liked. Unfortunately some people never learn how it's done. And a culture of gaming, internet and media to hide from social interactions isn't helping troubled kids to get out of their shell. These people exist and the ONLY way they'll ever change is by having a social environment that they can learn and practice in. And lets be real here.. GW products DO attract such people. So a store has an amazing opportunity of creating a space and community where these people can grow, come out of their shells and learn important skills. Sure telling them to stay away is the easy solution. But its also morally wrong imho. I feel like if you don't know how something works it's your job to learn. And if you KNOW how it's done its your job to teach. So socially strong people have the obligation to offer their insights to the ones who lack them. At least that's how i see it.
Exactly why I say that inclusiveness is wrong. It just enables this type of behaviour where everyone else has to adapt to these sponges just because they shield under a label. Instead, though love forces people to learn and even empath with common game etiquette. That self diagnosed mind sick girl who identifies herself as a man is no different from that guy who smells like onion and fish and keeps bad sportsmanship as a lifestyle.
This is hilarious to me because having a place to play with the minis was a big selling point when I worked at GW. It was a key point to talk about the dedicated league nights and having drop in game space, I was taught to steer the best painted armies closer to the front of the store to show them off. What's the selling point now? Now you better be part of a play group that plays at someone's house or have enough space to host yourself or you're out of luck. I've literally used games workshop to break the ice personally for new cities I've lived in. It was a short cut to meeting a bunch of new people easily, and inevitably one or two of them would click and become friends. Now I have zero incentive to involve GW in that. Now I'll pick an independent gaming store and just start a new game based on what's being played the night I can go
It's a double edged sword for me. Standards are necessary, no one wants people coming in who can't keep a personal hygiene routine. But, by not playing games in store, it can be hard to even play a game. As a guy coming back into the hobby, I don't have the old crew I played with anymore. A chance to meet and play in a store can open up new friendships and new opportunities for those new and returning people, to game and buy models.
My closest shop is an hour or more away, just getting some other friends into the hobby so we can play in our current town in our basement, Space Wolves, Death Guard, World Eaters,Tyranids with eldritch theme. Plus when we were at the Games workshop the back was full already, that city has a shit ton of people so does our town. I think playing at the shop would be nice but not viable for many.
Another advantage to having people play in store is that prospective customers can see real people playing the actual game. Like someone may come see a game in progress and be like “oh neat how does that work?” Then a sales rep can be brought in for the sales pitch and they can run the demo. Like I noticed having more people doing the hobby worked to get people interested who otherwise might not have been when I worked at GW.
With this news and a lot of local comic shops closing up, there's not too many places to play much anymore. One of the things I see being a thing could be Private Wargaming Clubs. Think like those private country clubs but for wargaming. Someone could rent an office space or unused restaurant (a lot of those on the market since covid and everyone lives at home now) and set up tables for play. Instead of making making money from sales you collect membership fees from players who are looking to play with other people. People are free to play whatever version they like, and the club could have a library of older rulebooks for players to try out. Maybe rent out painted armies for a game for players who don't have an army. Plus since its a private club there could be rules set up for etiquette and personal hygiene so that you can remove "that guy" without him coming back. You could also have a makerspace there for people to come and paint minis and maybe 3D printers for people to use for bits they need. Also you could have a snack shack for a small source of profit. Look at the business model of Country Clubs, Comic Cafes, Lounges, and Maker Spaces work for setting something like this up.
from I now hearing. I am over the moon that I sold all my games work shop items. I used to spend alot of time in the store even helped them out when ever I could. most of my money was spent there. never got a starter kit. just bulit up over time. I then moved over to role playing games. I have never left the role playing games. games workshop had some roling playing games I gm them in my city, untill it stopped.
I recently came to my local GW after break from hobby (and them changing location) and cashier-man-child-thing straight up told me it's "showroom, not gaming store". All gaming tables? "Please no tuchy tuchy" dioramas. They do make events, sometimes, but going in and playing game with friends? You either have to be big spender (and with other shops giving 20-30% off that's NOT gonna happen) or know someone from staff. Kinda sad. But hey, I got battle honors leaflet. Recruitment, Recruitment, Recruitment.
When I lived in Enfield, the locaL GW had veterans night where I joined a bloodbowl league alongside a bunch of other games being played. My friend and I turned up one night having just played tennis and dressed accordingly. We were getting very odd looks from the other patrons as if playing a sport was an alien concept.
This may be a little tin foil hat-y, but I wonder if it's to do with the rules not being great and so they don't want people complaining about the game in public where new recruits may hear or see. It's not great advertisement to see people play the game and not enjoy it because of the rules that the store wants you to pay £30-40 for.
I played a 4 person fantasy game in store, I didn't have my army and was asked to fill a spot using the stores army(I don't know what it was called but lots of beasts) had a charge with awesomely good dice throwing on my part, ended up with extra charges and ended up smashing one opponent and he spat the dummy, took his army and left, I never played again. So I believe that the store should be choosey about who they let play.
I 3d print my models and the only reason I buy GW models is so I can play in GW stores, resin printers have quality that match and a lot of the time are better then the injection mould models (and are only getting better) and the 3d sculptures are growing more numerous and making higher detailed sculpts to go with the better printers so for me and the other people that print we kinda don't care about GW models and being able to play a game at a GW store is the only thing that is valuable so if I can't play at a store I have no reason to buy their models. Just thought another angle to this might be interesting
I can't say I blame them, really. People in this hobby can be really friggin weird, man. There's a reason there are so many hobby nightmare stories. I've been in this hobby off and on since 1995 and I've seen a lot; from really amazing people to those that you don't wanna spend time with. And the latter are the ones that seem to keep turning up. And not for nothin', but people are getting more aggressive and antisocial in public. I work for a Pediatric urgent care network, and after the pandemic, we had to put up signs saying what behavior wouldn't be tolerated. We've had to get security in every center because the parents are becoming unruly and threatening. It was unthinkable before, now it's a common occurrence.
I think GW wanted to do that at the start of 9th with the rules of sportsmanship in the base rules. Warhammer could be taken more serious with a much more elite Apple-store flair. Back in the days, my wife teased me for playing with the smelly men in the store, and truth be told, there were actual real stinkers among them. However, I do not think it is sensible business-wise to shrink the player base even more, if GW wants to survive. Although they are already heavily whale-hunting, some of these whales are real stinkers, both odorly and personality wise. At least an official "No Shoes, No Deo, No Service" sign would make the playing experience more pleasurable.
I'm in Virginia, USA. I just moved to my current town. There's this awesome games workshop store that is run by one guy. I literally mean one guy. Just one. He's open 5/7 days a week. There's 3 large tables and the walls hold the minis. I've only been there once. I'm a new player/painter but have listened to multiple lores and am decently mentally invested in this. This store was one of the most welcoming places and even welcomes you to come in and paint when there's room. It might be a UK thing or that it's just based on different demographics.
Interesting vid. My local Warhammer store actively encourages playing in store. They have specific time slots for kids to ensure a safe place and teach kid groups the variety of GW games. They also have other times for adults playing WarCry, Kill Team and 40K. All players are held to a player code of practice regarding language and behaviour. I have never seen any customer breach those rules which is a testament to the character of the players.
I assume a GW store does not include the more privately owned Local Game Shops that just happen to also sell some GW models. Because every store I've ever been in has gaming tables and games played there.
I agree with you a little bit. When I was younger about 15 years ago I got into the hobby. I went to the local hobby shop with my mom, and the people there lacked personal hygiene and acted like children. It was a bit of a turn off to the hobby, and it made it hard to get my mom to take me to hobby shops after that. I’m not too judgy nowadays, but I get what you are coming from.
Just an anecdote from my time as a red shirt in the early 2000's but there was a senior manager at GW HQ who was pushing for no games in stores and to replace the gaming space with blister racks. He ended up being demoted and eventually left the company with a year or so, it just shows the cultural change GW leadership that someone was lambasted for suggesting taking gaming out stores but it's now a thing. In all honesty I stopped going into GW stores after I left in 2006 as I was just burned out from the hobby, since then I've played occasionally at local clubs or with friends but the change in store atmosphere is so different I don't see it as somewhere to hang out and meet people, which honestly makes sense, it's a shop not a social club. I do agree with the personal responsibility part, I've had to have a word with several kids and some young adults about their personal hygiene and it's not a nice conversation to have, as an advertisement for a product and store it doesn't offer a good first impression. I think a happy medium used to be smaller sized games, at the time 40K tournament play was around 1500 or 1750 points, to avoid "power gamers" we used to limit games during the day to 1000 points with only games nights allowing up to 1500 points (or 2K for Fantasy, 6th ed, yikes!), there was definitely give and take but now it seems its all changed and probably for the best. Should also be noted that for the primarily one person store setup they definitely don't have the time to do the old style run campaigns whilst arbitrating rules and enforcing store standards plus run intro games, use the till, replenish the store and possibly even clean, not like the good old days of key timers and stores having 6-10 staff!
It feels like they only care about the initial purchases people make. The starter sets, the rule books, the first paints etc. anything to lure you in to the hobby and get you invested Once you are, start buying models less frequently as your maintaining an army not building one, have the paints and actually want somewhere to play the game you’ve been lured into they couldn’t give a shit, you mean nothing. Your worth less to them than the new players
living in my new area there are 3 WH stores within an hour of me. Iv always been confused on why they have such small stores and gaming spaces. But every time guaranteed the tables are being used.
As a few other commenters have stated, that does sound a lot more like a UK / Europe thing than a US thing. My local GW only has 3 tables and is fairly tight, but my manager buddy always encourages people to show up for events he runs every weekend and loved to get pictures of the store packed and crowded. He often runs escalation leagues, tells people to come to his free painting classes, and encourages people to come in for combat patrol or incursion games during week days. His only exception is if someone wants to play a 2k or bigger type game they need to reserve a table a day or two in advance. KPIs also seem like something stressed more in the UK as I asked the manager about those to see if there was something I could buy to help his store numbers when I wanted to try something new and he just said that all sales are good sales and that they don't care quite as much about that over here. Should move out this way and get a better taste in your mouth even if we pay about 30% more than y'all lol
Wish my game store had the balls to kick out the toxic players. Maybe we'd still have people showing up for tournaments there. And the warhammer people? They're the same neckbeards that chased out the magic community. Add that to the part where they don't keep warhammer stocked except the stuff the owners and their friends want.
The best recruiting and advertising GW could hope for was fan made youtube movies and animations and GW went out of their way to shut those down which tells you everything you need to know about how they operate. They care about one thing and thats sales.
I'm sure I heard this from Girl Painting on one of her UA-cam videos or something i.e. that veteran players in some stores are not being allowed to use GW tables to play their hobby. I should imagine that's because many are just using GW shops as a 'free gaming club' and not buying anything whatsoever in the GW store. This was a problem at one of the GW stores in a very big city in Spain near a very famous football stadium, the manager was just inviting his mates and favorite 'hobby loyalists to him' who were buying "nada" / zilch/ zero and always playing games there, other customers were not treated great sometimes - his sales hardly paid for the rent. He was pushed out 2 years ago and he had to leave and set up his own hobby store having had loads of paid time off for some 'illness' also; if you read the Google Reviews for his GW store that he left one person wrote that he ran the store like a beach bar for his mates (un chiringuito). Incidently I went into a GW store in the same city in Spain last week and saw veteran players in there and asked about whether only introductory games were being allowed and they said 'nope' even regular customers and friends of the shop are allowed and that it was up to the discretion of the manager.
Maybe? But most of the veteran players I know still buy product. I mean, I've been playing Dark Angels since around 2001 (and have about 14000 points of them), but I still bought a 2000 point Imperial Knights army when the new codex recently came out, and plan on buying Leagues of Votann once there's more product available. There are certainly people who don't want to/can't afford to buy more than they already have, but the bottom line is, having people to play against is what keeps those of us that do buy thousands of dollars of product a year still buying thousands of dollars of product a year 20 years after we started.
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@@cassiecaradoc2070 That's pretty much the point. If someone plays there without buying anything he is still an asset to the store as long as he is not negatively affecting sales.
@@cassiecaradoc2070 The people he is talking about aren't veteran players, they are the person running the store's friends. They are the worst because they feel that they own the store and are fine with not buying anything. People that are invested in the hobby tend to buy stuff.
Bizarre. I remember so looking forward to Thursday night games night at the local store. It would stay open later (along with a lot of business) and it would either be bring and play or they'd do in store campaigns where everyone got a unit to play with in a massive narrative game that was run by the on of the staff. It was IMMENSELY popular. So many people in the store drawing others in with the noise and fun for a few hours on one night of the week. My local store was alway really friendly on painting too. If you wanted to come in and get some tips on painting and use store paints they were more than happy. Of course you wouldn't bring in a ton of minis and batch paint but if you were there they loved it. Tiny investment. 100% behind you about responsibility and honesty. You wouldn't put up with a douchebag at you home or in a normal hobby club. There are standards and expectations. A GW store is not a public space to do and act however you want. Ultimately though 99% of people are going to be really good in store and it's the 1% runing it for the rest.
I play at my local warhammer store every week! Store Manager knows everyone and sets up all the tables and really puts the effort in and it shows just from the volume of people that attend, it gives everyone something to look forward to each week!
Because Gamers (People Playing Games) are "poison" and you want them "out of your store". This has been the attitude of GW for a long time and recanonizing the Rainbow Warriors 🌈 won't change that.
20 years ago I would go into GW as a young teenager and buy stuff then build it up and paint it, that was my experience. Never played games, that was either Friday after school in the library or at a friends/my house. As an adult I just don't set foot in a GW store, it's always either at an independent FLGS or at a friends/my house. GW stores seem like a relic of the past, they don't offer any value over a regular hobby store.
I’m new to the hobby and in the U.S. so I don’t know if it’s just my local Warhammer store that’s doing it’s own thing or what but every Saturday they host games, when I first visited the store and the manager started to explain all this to me he told me the games people play in his store are combat patrol maybe a little bigger, last Saturday when I went to play for the first time there were a couple people doing an introductory painting session, after they finished painting they came to watch the game were asking questions, asking to look at our models that were dead, etc. As long as stores set a standard for player conduct and game size there should be no problem with games in the store that way a parent coming in with their kid doesn’t feel overwhelmed by the size (and therefore cost) of the game and don’t feel uncomfortable with the kinds of players in the community.
unfortunately here the hobbyist scene has for a long time been split into 2 groups: the people who played at the store game nights, and the people who played at the store once, were creeped out by the first group, and with the aid of a quick google found this second group meeting up elsewhere. and this was nothing to do with the store itself or their staff, but that first group of players embodied every negative stereotype of the hobby you can think of, gathered in one room.
My town had a little comic and game shop but the lease was too much for the little shop. The owners admitted that it was more of a hobby for them and enjoyed the store when it was breaking even. With the modern market though it was actually starting to lose money quick. They closed doors. Thankfully, the one of the owners is a good friend of mine and I very kind man. He hosts games in his garage now for all of us that are in the group. It's much harder to find new players now because we have to get to know them before inviting them over. Luckily, we have a great playgroup and we all chip in.
The weirdo B.O crew was the reason I didn’t go into store much. I also had a nice alternative as a couple of teachers at my school used to run an afterschool thing for 40k, MTG, Warhammer Fantasy etc so I went there instead. But even without that I wouldn’t have been going into store to play games. Its not just GW where that’s a thing either, I went to a local games store for MTG, Friday night magic etc, some of the people there were just sound and others were just wrecks.
This video was a breath of fresh air, considering what GW vids I'm used to seeing on UA-cam. Speaking as a former HCM, I can back most of what you said -particularly the deplorable personal standards that the 'regulars' would exhibit and how it presents to new prospective customers. I do think you missed a few points that could of further added context, but I also acknowledge that our experiences may yet differ, especially because there is a half a world between our countries (I live in Australia). I'll touch on one example, regarding the recruitment KPI; DV wasn't the only core product to sell, there were the paint sets that were also tracked. But I also suspect that the Head of Sales in AU was a much more flexible boss to report to than anyone in the UK. I'd elaborate further, but I'm not going to, because no-one asked, and I'm not thrilled at writing a novel's worth of unsolicited experiences that people in the comments will likely refute just because it doesn't fit their narrative. So I'll wrap this up by saying thank you Northern Exile, I understand you in the way that one only can from walking in your shoes, and you've got my sub.
The one man store in my city (Albany/Schenectady NY) is 30 minutes away near latham (Most likely cheaper rent) to reach it, and it while they have room for a few tables i've never once seen it used during the few visits I've made. I stopped going because they never had anything in stock, even starter kits! Last time I went to buy the new Killteam starter directly (wanted to support the local shop like an idiot) and they didnt even have a single one, while every other local games/comic shop had dozens. Half the shelves were also bare bones, so I decided to pick up a few paints that I would be needing soon enough and of course they only had shitty odd colors left. All the good/useful colors were sold out. So I left with like 2 paint pots and decided to no longer use that shop. Why would I drive 30 minutes out of the way to pay more for items at a shop that doesnt even offer games or even STOCK to chose from during an impulse buy! There's supposedly one other GW/Warhammer store in downtown, but that part of the city isnt anything you visit for something like warhammer! Especially if you are not a minority. So I doubt i'll ever visit it to see if they actually keep stock. Which, I doubt as the crack/meth heads would steal it~
Great video and content! First time visited to your channel(subscribed). It’s a privilege to be able to buy and enjoy a “first world “game and hobby! Sure there are lots of options to keep games in the store. I am 58 years old and been playing games workshop games since 1991. The last 15 years, here in America, it has only gotten worse at games workshop stores for game play. Many hobbyists are rude, clickish’ unkind to new people, swear, unkept, bad winners, complainers when the lose, and act very entitled. Why would I want to bring my grandchildren there. I prefer the local shops where owners/managers keep strict rules of conduct. They have private conversations that help hobbyists manage their behaviors to promote an experience that can be enjoyed by all. I have not had a bad experience with employees of game workshop or their managers. But it is the last place I take anyone to introduce them to the hobby. It’s just not a fun place! But it could be! Thanks for your honesty.
"Oh there's a premier of-" "Love you all longtime, goodnight." Last ten seconds still means I caught it technically ... Anyhow no games in stores is a Grade A stupid idea.
GW had stopped being game-friendly in 2017 or earlier, in Northern Virginia. Stores kept getting smaller, tables went fewer. Nowadays, a store is lucky to have ONE gaming table. They've become little more than a model and paint kiosk. Thing of it is, I can get everything in the stores, in the LGS. Or, online, the one week out of a year that they have the model I need in stock. This is what will kill the company, of course: literally, the only incentive to buy overpriced minis and broken rules banned by tournaments, is the ability to play in a store. Without that carrot at the end of the stick? There is literally nothing stopping me from buying third-party minis. Nothing makes me want to buy their terrain. Nothing makes me want to use their cracked rules. No store games, no store community, no incentive to stay within the lines of a company that has betrayed us all at every turn. I shall continue to be happy buying, building, customizing and playing literally anything else. GW and their products belong in the Harbor. ...that said, yeah, take a damn shower, if you play in public. Duh.
Once you start playing games outside GW you see other miniature games being played with much better rules (and price point) and it breaks through the Stockholm Syndrome. No point recruiting if they can't keep you. Forcing people into 3rd party stores just allows other games companies to benefit from the GW recruitment. As we're seeing with a lot of public faces of Warhammer, the company has a terrible track record of keeping people who are good for the business because of their awful ideology. Games in store is about community and that should be the priority of stores over individual profit because the company shouldn't care where their product is purchased, so stop punishing staff with arbitrary targets.
So in Australia this will be an actual issue because some capital cities dont even have a LGS or a gaming community area they just have a tiny warhammer store with 2 tables. so them banning playing in that store will actually stop ANY games workshop being played in that city that isnt just at a mates place
My local GW store is completely different, in fact the manager and I hang out fairly often. We play squash together, we paint minis, we play video games together too! All the time he challenges me or I challenge him to games at the store and often invites me and other customers to tournaments. Other staff also play games of 30k, Necromunda and even Blood Bowl at the store. Must just be an Australian thing then lmao
My GW store in Calgary is very uncomfortable to enter. Several of the male employees wear makeup or are now known as Nancy. I don't even want to enter the store anymore. I don't feel like dealing with their gender problems.
Yeah, never been to an Actual Warhammer store, only play at a LGS that sells Warhammer, board games, Magic, etc. Closest Warhammer store is in my states capital which is 4 hours away (280 miles), I would like to check one out but not going that far to look at the models I can buy here at a discount.
Killed table top gaming in my area. Flgs closed. We don't have clubs (rent too high , plus no rent space) and we don't play at home. We have a GW store (one per country) you can play 2 demo games of any game, then they won't let you at the store unless it is to buy stuff.
Issue I found was more that the store developed kind of a "clique" of certain people who would be allowed to play in store who where elitist in the way they played, not friendly to a new player and actually made me go to another store to go and buy and play, after the games got cancelled all of a sudden they don't show up anymore and the local store seems to have more footfall.... odd that really
OK. My view. I run a tabletop games company primarily based around Call of Cthulhu and D&D. The last time I was in a GW was about 15 years ago. I went in to the Harrogate store with my 8yr old daughter and saw a 30+Yr old man screaming across a table at a 12yr old kid for having the wrong colour goblin army. He was scruffy, his belly was hanging below his top, and he was rude and aggressive. He was the manager. I never went back. Recently, a friend offered to run me through some GW games at a local Geek Retreat in Chester. I had a great time hanging out with my friend who is a little autistic. He gets carried away and talks a lot but he's a good lad. There were 6 of us around the table and I mentioned that I remembered GW in a time when their biggest asset was their floorspace and each shop seemed to have one employee but was loved by visitors as they got to chat, paint, and play. To my surprise I learned that Chester still had a GW and it was TEN doors down. To get cool and get some air I wandered down and looked through the GW window. It was empty. Geek Retreat was packed. If you want your customers to be neat. If you want your customers to be well groomed and polite, then set up a jazz cafe. Geeks will be geeks. I think it's enormously arrogant of a company that thinks it's average customer isn't good enough to get involved in its shop's activities. My friend's autism can seem bothersome by GW standards so he doesn't go there and so, neither do we. GW is toxic, has been since Livingstone and Jackson left or at least since White Dwarf issue 100. GW's customers owe GW NOTHING and GW owes it's customers EVERYTHING.
Back in early 90's when I was about 14, I used to spend my entire day in the store playing games, watching games and painting models and hanging out with friends. I loved it, the store was always packed and there was a good friendly atmosphere in there. No idea if the store made money or was deemed successful, but that same store is still there now. I don't play any more but when I walk past or on the rare occasion, pop in, the place is dead, how is that a good advert for the hobby?
You make a great point and I agree with you. In the US you'd probably want to formalize things a bit more, invitations or somesuch with written desired characteristics, at least for managers, to defend against possible discrimination lawsuits. The air of favoritism can be offputting, disincluding, but on the whole I agree with you and you make a great point.
Brick and mortar GW stores are getting smaller. And with high rental and other overheads, it's only natural that they reserved the space for merchandise. On the other hand, there are more independent operators who fill in the gap when GW switched priorities. These operators rent out space for tabletop gamers and where I come from, >80% live in small public housing so these independent operators are a boon. They are affiliated with the major tabletop gaming brands and they retail a selection of the products which helps draw new customers and also increase exposure.
I’ve never once realized why I had so many reservations of the game until recently when I’ve stopped caring what others think about me (a mildly successful and hardworking individual with a reputation for being social) it’s because some of the people that play gross me out to an outrageous level. I’m sorry it’s true take care of yourself and that’s not a dig it’s a real concern for my health as well as yours. Either way I bought some ork 40k minis and have been having a blast painting while watching UA-cam after my 11 hours shifts. It’s pretty relaxing
Store manager from 2010 to 2015 year. Games stopping started becoming something the higher ups were pushing from the one man stores introductions. They put a huge push on manager training when I started. Massive support. Then on the fine cast period (2012ish) they got rid of regional managers, and the old collating of performing/similar sized stores too. It meant you felt so alone. Plus you were putting about 60 hour weeks in (if preparing and running the store properly) to plan events and such. A planned event of gaming was fine and small games nights were ok. But they were frowned upon unless they were shown by the manager to be linked to products and a way of making money. To a degree I kind of agreed with this. And I think with a good manager they could be ran well. However. You had to put tons of time and resources into keeping it going, ready, and planning to plan. Way too much work for one man. You ended up burning out like I did. I remember at one point. Sitting after close in my store, ringing another manager of 15 years and crying (ashamed to say). Not my best experience. Planning daily weekly and monthly events with little time to know what was coming out back then (changed since I know) keeping the store spotless, customers happy, stock and tables looking lovely. For one man it was either my whole life and doing well or it was tanking and I felt like a failure.
I completely agree. I used to live opposite a fantastic FLG but would travel an hour away to play at a different one because people were cleaner and the place didn’t stink to the high heavens. Nothing is worse than booking a table in a gaming basement, only to show up to be warm room, thick with the smell of BO and have to decide if you are actually able to play the game you have so heavily invested in, or if you have to leave with a literal bitter taste in your mouth
Have to say, I make gaming tables as a hobby and sell them, I have made a few for stores, everytime I have been in one to get inspiration it stinks of BO, so I just stopped going. The last one I went to had a group of guys around a table arguing, while a father came in with his son saw this and just walked out. It does help the store to have games going, seeing models painted and seeing models that might interest you, as you will more then likely go and pick them up yourself, but the idea of guys standing around arguing, stinking to high heaven, won't sell a thing. I even remember walking upto the store that used to be in manchester Arndale you could smell the place down at other store.
I don’t think this is limited to Warhammer. I remember at one point going to a generally hobby store( comics, magic the gathering, Warhammer,etc) and my girlfriend at the time never wanted to go in exactly because the type of gamers you talk about in this video.
And yet, and this is the real irony here, the way they structure and present their game and its universe foster exactly the kind of competitive one-upsmanship that those undesirable gamers thrive on. They are literally catering to the audience that is damaging their gaming community.
i must admit we do need to have this self policing, i turn up to my local game store to buy paints/the off box of models to support my store, and its dead. its so small its only the store manager in there half the time, i remember going into the store with my dad and seeing people playing games and browsing not even 10 years ago and now it s a shell of what it used to be, games and showing an active community are a big part of what makes starting the hobby less daunting i feel
Honestly, never have played a game in a GW store, never really felt like a gaming environment to me imo. I’ve just always stuck to my FLGS and met loads more people there too
This policy happened at the friar lane store in Nottingham, the home city of the bloody company over 6 years ago. You had to book to play a game and then you couldn't play your game because the tables were suddenly allocated for an introduction game (where the employees were pushed into selling a starter set to that person immediately) this is on top of gradually phasing out the ability for you to put together and paint the models you bought in that very store.. Now this account is a personal anecdote. I cannot verify any of this with documents, take it with a pinch of salt. But a thriving group of regulars in both time and money investment moved away from the hobby by this practice. People like me with 10's of thousands of pounds invested who built this company are brushed aside and considered irrelevant. But the wider audience they want to increase sales have come in so as far as GW is concerned, job done!
It usually depends on the location. Here in my city at Canada, we have one store locally, and they do have tables available for gaming so as long as they’re booked and having your owned terrain and game boards ready. I was unaware of this and it’s a bummer to see what it’s becoming in the area…😮
Used to love playing at my local GW, pandemic happened then I realised if I did go in there the pressure to buy stuff was immense and the atmosphere was a bit dry. Having other people in the shop ask questions throughout and customers navigating past you whilst you try to play just isn't ideal. I know its a shop first then a place to game second, but when my other LGS has epic background music, lots more custom boards and terrain with a dedicated gaming area with its own refreshments it just cant be beat. Used to be good friends with the management though, however now they're gone its back to the drive sales energy which is a massive shame for a community driven shop.
So, they took over the tournament system from Frontline Gaming, presumably because they thought they could run the tournaments better, but then they stop gaming in the stores, so it kind of seems like GW don't want to recruit new players but are, like other companies like Disney, Marvel, DC, etc., deliberately trying to drive their existing fanbase away. Players could organize playing locations, tournaments etc. through some kind of non-profit or player's society, it could be run like the ITC, but funded by player donations and memberships, the way sporting leagues once operated, but the company would have to be willing to allow the player's society to operate independently while still using GW's 'intellectual property' to promote themselves and the game. Unfortunately, GW has become the kind of company that threatens to sue fans who are paying their own money to advertise GW's products.
picking and choosing who can use game tables is classed as discrimination and can lead to law suits if your not real careful ☹.... the WAY AROUND THIS PROBLEM is as follows ... you make your gaming tables a "V.I.P EXPERIENCE" , with a visible DRESS CODE & certain "REQUIREMENTS" ... similar to the rules of a fancy restaurant(without the food ).... available to everyone 12yrs+ who meets the "STANDARD" .. complete with booking reservations & table prices etc. .... this way , only the "BEST MEMBERS OF THE GAMING COMMUNITY" are representing GAMES WORKSHOP , GW gets to make a little bit of $ , and the GW community has a place to play ... EVERYBODY WINS 😀😃🤩🤑
I've seen this all before and I agree to an extent. The real question is though, have they adjusted their KPIs, the new 'commander' system is a good idea, but as they've dropped 'start collecting' sets, and insist on space marines being in every starter (i understand this point, I'm not wholely arguing against that) then they're not exactly depicting their IP in their introduction. So what are the KPIs nowadays, and also what is their hiring practice. My store manager was transferred to Oxford Street a few months ago, Pablo, very good chap, and his replacement has just been the cover worker, who doesn't know anything about hobby, lore or rules, so how effective can he be at recruitment when he can't describe the products he's selling, can't run an intro painting session nor an intro gaming session. I went in last week and he was telling a 10yr old that they can paint with contrast over bare plastic!, I was the entire shop away and the kids mum caught my facial expression which was as close as you could get to a no audio snort of derision, whilst I browsed blood angels. Whilst he ran the kid through a 'starter game', the mum came and spoke to me. Asked me 'have you been doing this for a while?' 'about 15 years' 'oh wow, can I ask you some questions' 'yeah of course, what did you need to know' 'i noticed you didn't look very impressed when he was talking about paints' 'yeah sorry, i paint a lot, I wouldn't recommend what he said about contrast, it really needs primer, the base paints you can get away without primer, but not contrast' And we had a conversation about priming, painting, and hobby in general. I did used to work for GW, it's not the first time I've had this conversation, and in the end I'm probably responsible for half of the sale. Knowing that the store basically didn't play, I suggested to the mother that she look into Warhammer clubs at his school, see if there are any so on and so forth. Otherwise recruitment is pointless if you're just going to lose the customer because they're completely disconnected from the hobby, and certainly in my town, GW is completely removed from any sense of community. Long winded I know, but I think it shows, GW are interested in profit, solely so they can add value to their IP, to sell off to another company to use, they need us for that, but they don't want us for it either.
Yet ANOTHER reason GW deserves to get bent. I haven't given them a nickel in nearly two years, swearing them off until I see better business practices. I've been grabbing pirated .stl files for my 3D printer and buying from eBay recasters ever since, and switched over the last of my paint collection from the Citadel stuff. They can do whatever the hell they want; I need five years of GW demonstrating markedly better treatment of their audience before they get another cent from me.
As you said, you'd need to curate people you allow to game in your stores but a lot of times it's *those* people who come in and spend an absolute fortune that are often the ones you kinda don't want hanging around the store. Like your Moanhawk guy, you mentioned he was pretty well off and would buy tons of models. GW don't care that he brings the stores atmosphere down, they're there to sell that guy models and it's just easier for them to have the 'buy models and GTFO' approach rather than having anything but introductory games set up. Basically GW don't want to risk lost sales over people being upset that they can't play at the store...so yeah...money wins over building a community because it's easier to make money than it is to build a good community.
I am here in Southern California and with space for retail being at a premium there’s never been large game stores that have room for large role-playing games. It’s usually a few tables and that’s it
Played games at a store that had a list of reasons of why games should not be played at the store. Things like easier shoplifting to non paying customers. Then next to it was a list of why games should be played. Last one was "This store would close without games being played." Few years later after a change in management it was proven right.
A dull, quiet shop with a single employee sitting behind the cash register is not conducive to growing the hobby. But what does grow the hobby is an exciting store with gamers laughing, rolling dice, and actively enjoying the products you're trying to sell. For GW to assume that the majority of their adult customer base is comprised of detrimental assholes is sad but not surprising. For decades GW has shown so much disdain for their customer base it's a miracle they're still in business. I worked for some years at a GW store in the PNW in the early 2000s. Our shop always had games going in the evenings and the place was packed on the weekends. This activity generated a great deal of foot traffic, and it was many of those older gamers who enthusiastically explained to the curious 12-year old looking on what he was playing and how it worked. Yes, we would sometimes have to ask someone to leave due to poor behavior, but that was rare. Those were fun times, and I was reminiscing on them recently when visited my local GW shop last Sunday. The place was as exciting as a dentist's waiting room. There were no kids in the place, no one was playing any games, and the demo tables looked neglected. It's sad that this is the type of shop GW encourages.
I fully get what is been said here, myself when i go to my local for a game on the thursday night, i always make sure i'm well dressed and kept, but i also make sure to have a spare £10 - £20 in pocket and use that vist to grab some paitns brushes a new BL-Book or something as a "token" to i'm playing but supporting my store for allowing me to do so
Used to go to a Games workshop in Slough UK pre 2000. I recall they bought in a new manager who actively discouraged people from playing games and being in the store.
That´s not harsh. It´s just delivering the message without sugarcoating. I agree with your points. However I also need to point the following things out: For starters GW stores are tiny. So the appeal of playing there is rather slim. I did a few promo games of Blood Bowl & Necromunda (N17) in a GW store as a favour for the store manager. I provided two fully painted teams out of my collection and my BB pitch from the 90s. What was my reward? The manager shamed me during the promo game because I had "that ancient stuff." So disrespectful behaviour is also a thing from the side of the store managers. As a result of such attitude the numbers of visitors dropped significantly during Covid and stayed low as people adjusted by hobbying at home. Now she has been ill for months. Whether this is due to the shop tanking I can´t say but a few months ago she shamed me for buying somewhere else when I didn´t order the AoD HH 2.0 box at the store and only ordered dice & transfers. This means the pressure is real. I will avoid that shop like the plague from now on until someone new runs it. The other thing is GW´s hatred of hobbyists who are 30+ years old. You despise us but love our money. We get it. As a consequence I won´t do any promo for GW games anymore irrespective of location.
I remember speaking to one of the higher ups at a Games Day in '08 or '10. There are certain people within the community that are toxic, it's been a problem for a long time, and GW is finally bringing the hammer down. At this point, they want to make the minis and have the gamers self-govern their communities and games. One can cultivate a community that brings people together (I started a D&D high school program for a library that is still going 3 years later), but there will be bad apples that need to be tossed out. It is what it is.
This is the oposite for my GW store, the manager is encouraging to start leagues for 40k, AoS, Killteam and Warcry. They were even talking of doing a LotR day where whtey could run a big scenario. So at least for me we are encouraged to get to the store and play any time we want
I am here in Southern California and with space for retail being at a premium there’s never been large game stores that have house role-playing games. It’s usually a few tables and that’s it
Honestly if the store won’t let you play there I’d never buy an item there. You support where you play and playing there is the only reason I’d over spend by buying it from them directly.
Yeah no kidding, with how easy online shopping is these days, the only reason to go to a local store is if you run out of glue/paint in the middle of a project, and to support the "community". If there's no community there playing games, why would I spend money there when I can probably find it cheaper online somewhere?
Indeed. The places I play at I always buy a box of something for one of my armies before heading home. If GW doesn't want that $50 every time I play a game I can take it elsewhere.
This is why I don't buy stuff online, unless it's from an independent producer, I want to support the stores I sit down in to play in
@@BouncingTribbles Right, I want to support them, that's why I always buy stuff before leaving as a thanks for the table space. I've seen too many small gaming stores go under because the patrons just took advantage of the place and spent no money there.
" There's no fighting in the War Room!"
Really was never an option in the US. Least for me. All the GW warhammer stores are super tiny and have very small tables, usually a grand total of 2. There was no possible way to just walk into a store and pick up a game with a random. Staff are nice but yeah
I swear the only one in my state is smaller than a shoebox
Weren't there these huge cement-complexes GW made dedicated for pl;aying games in? I swear I saw some threads about that on /tg/ once. They were mostly shut down early-mid 2000's I think
@@viorp5267 Yeah, there was a battle bunker in Chicago, I think, but that closed down. I think there might be one in Seattle still, but I haven't checked in a long while.
@@DarkKnightCuron one in Maryland closed too
Not a big thing here in South Africa either, there is no store in my city where I can purchase models, I have to order mine (Just started two months back) from another city in the country.
NE : "keep players inline, while we have a million other things to do"
Me walking past the GW shop multiple times every day "I never see that guy doing anything but sitting around every time I pass this store"
So lucky my local GW store (Texas) not only lets us play in store, but organizes events and even provides hobby space for us. Sad to see that may not be the norm elsewhere
Grapevine?
@@ericbergen4449 ;)
@@PeterIsATeacher I've been to the Grapevine store a couple of times over the years! Sadly I'm in Louisiana, so it's like a 3-4 hour drive to go there. :
@@PeterIsATeacher Woot Woot! Grapevine!
Used to play in the first one man store small though it was there was usually 10 people in there all playing games all day. It helped me so much socially as a kid and i think its something that really needs to come back
We used to have a cool independent place near me a while back. It was like a food court for games. There were multiple vendors with different "shops" around the outside, and then a huge space with tables and chairs in the middle. It was a large warehouse so there was always something going on, you could book tables and set up ypur own tournies if you wanted. But sadly like most places the rent got too high and they were forced out.
Maybe if I won the lottery, I could set something like that up. Sounds really cool honestly.
@@DarkKnightCuron You need to own the building, but yes. That would be cool.
The game store I play at actually values us, we all know each others names, were all friends. I love it when curious people come up and watch a game, ask questions about our armies and the game in general and show genuine interest. Then when those people bring their army in to play or buy models during their visit I feel like I did my part. I play deathgaurd and not trying to gloat but my army looks very nice and when people see them on the table they tend be excited to spectate, in turn that boosts my confidence and makes me value my time at the store even more. When you play at the store your almost like an ambassador for your store, I always try my best to present myself as respectfully as possible. I'm an HVAC technician so I always carry myself professionally.
Unicorn, ;)
I remember when the stores were called hobby centres
They lost there soul over 15yr ago
That was indeed the moment things began to turn.
It was 5th edited Chaos Space Marines codex, wasn't it?
"Triator Legionaires suck it is Renegade Chapters that are in now." - M. Ward (possibly).
@@northernexile I remember going to into my local store in the early 90's being introduced to the hobby a friend. The was a 2nd edition 40k going (Ork's VS Space Marine). All wonderfully painted and on customer made terrain. I was hooked at that point. I stayed in the store all afternoon and watched the game. One of the players even let me control a unit of Ork's. At the end of the day I went a way with 2 boxes of Space Ork Goffs, 1 box of gretchen and Gazghul Thraka blister pack along with paints and brushes, glues etc.
My point is that my own personal experience was that it was the players that got me hooked on the hobby and not the intro game. And those players, I am still friends with today even though we no longer player the hobby.
That being said, I remember one kid that used to come in on a regular basis who never showered, or the another kid that would regularly steal other peoples models or rule books. And the anger that some go into when losing a game or die roll. It was always the few the would ruin the afternoon / evening for everyone else.
I lost interest when they stopped selling other companies products and just sold their own. Same with White Dwarf magazine, used to be okay when you could see articles on TSR, GDW etc.
If I never saw a game being played I never would have bought models. I didn't care about painting and collecting when I saw the boxes. It wasn't until I saw people playing the game that I thought to myself 'that's what I want to do'. If I never saw the game being played I never would have bought anything from GW.
Long post incoming:
As someone that used to work for a FLGS from 2009 to 2015, It's physically impossible for me to agree with you more. The amount of people that don't know what hygiene is? More than I'm comfortable admitting. The amount of folks that were basically dropped off by their parents the moment we opened and picked up when we closed? More than I care to admit. The amount of swearing and crass jokes? Far too many. I'm honestly surprised we turned a profit sometimes. We had a LOT of play space available, that was sort of our selling point, but we rarely charged for the space except for huge release events, like magic the Gathering or Yugioh. Honestly, paid events turned away the worst of the folks we had to deal with on a daily basis.
Truly, bad players hurts a business about as much as bad staff.
With all that being said, I cannot fathom why they don't have a membership program to let people play on their tables. Modest fee, minimum requirements, boom, you'd have that standard you wished to achieve. Instead, GW is surrendering control of the hobby to FLGS stores that are under-cutting GW stores anyway. How many UA-cam creators have affiliate links or links to ebay shops that give customers 10 - 25% off MSRP? Basically all of them. They produce, but they don't bother to curate or guide the direction their game is going. Instead, they basically have to monitor the results of everyone else's tournaments without providing software or guidance (something that card game companies figured out eons ago), whereas companies like Fantasy Flight provide a system of guidance and support for tournaments in a standardized format so balancing can happen in real time. GW could definitely stand to gain by looking at how Fantasy Flight and Card Game companies do things (Wizards of the Coast, Konami, Bushiroad, etc).
I truly do sympathize. Buy something, don't smell like trash, don't act like trash, keep the food and drinks outside the store. It's not that hard, and yet, we keep getting treated like the adult day care for some people. But we have to find a middle road somewhere, for the sake of the hobby.
I have never understood why people can have such poor hygiene. Personally, when I last played in a GW store ( back in the 90s) I remember this guy who stank came in. I told him to F off home and wash because he smelled like a corpse.
I really think part of the problem is that GW (from the Bad Times to the present,) as NE referred to with their mission statement, has switched focus from making games to selling models. It's been a LONG time since I can remember changes to the game that were designed to make the game better rather than to sell the latest models.
But I am also a disgruntled Specialist Games collector who played Epic, so keep that in mind. 😆
@@briansmaller7443 Yeah, it's an immense turn-off to anyone present. Like, seriously. Get off the computer/video games for 10 minutes and take a shower. Take a break from whatever you're doing and do your laundry. Its not that hard. But for some reason, we keep attracting the people that just... don't for some reason.
@@briansmith303 Yeah, we really need to bring back Epic and Batlefleet Gothic something fierce. Can you imagine doing a full campaign that has Battlefleet, Epic, Warhammer 40k, and Kill Team games all part of the same Campaign? That would be amazing.
My view: is it a store or a games club? If its a games club then police the members. If its a store then you have no right to exclude anyone who isn't being rude and aggressive. Imagine walking into a shop and being told "I'm sorry not sorry but you aren't good enough to shop here." It's like something out of pretty woman.
That news gets around and pretty soon everyone's buying online or finding other venues. If this didn't happen then Geek Retreat wouldn't be a thing. GW hasn't been visitor friendly for decades.
The local club I play at has slowly transitioned from playing in a GW store into playing at a venue. Now we have no direction from GW employees, I've seen a rise in other wargames and a massive spike in 3D printed models.
GW not allowing us to play in store means there is no incentive to keep buying their models.
I don't mind playing Vs a 3D printed army if it looks cool, and I think a lot of others feel the same way.
14:57 It's sad that the whole thing boils down to "if you don't pay for a service, then you're the product". I mean it's not wrong, but it's sad that making a space where people can have fun playing can't be the goal. The goal is to to manipulate people into working for you by being free advertisement.
Depressing.
16:50 And what if someone just wants to play a game? :/
They really need to allow games in stores. Having moved a few months ago I went into my nearest GW because that seemed like the easiest way to find out about gaming in the local area, meet people who play and really get a feel for the community. The shop was completely devoid of customers and then found out that they don't allow games in store. Since then I've basically dropped out of the hobby entirely just out of not knowing where to find the main hub of players.
That was my first thought- traditionally we're not one of the more sociable demographics- we need that hub goddamit
"No games in store" must be more of a UK thing than a US thing. I've never encountered a GW store that flat-out bans in-store gaming in North America. Now, some may be more friendly to it than others. Some are simply too small to have more than one or two games going on at once. Add to the fact that most stores don't have restroom facilities available for gamers.
Game stores tend to bring in oddballs. People who might not leave a good impression on new folks, I agree with you there. The worst are the ones who buy nothing at the store, yet expect to be given gaming space. I've run into gamers who brag that they get all their models off of eBay and won't make store purchases. Those types are a pox on the hobby.
No it’s not just a UK thing, at least not in Indianapolis. I use to buy stuff from the GW store in Indy but the manager who works there now is not welcoming AT ALL. Sure he seems nice enough and may be a great guy outside of the store but he’s really REALLY pushy and it drives me crazy. The only reason I go there now is for store exclusives, that’s it.
It’s really too bad. I don’t mind paying msrp for minis as long as I have a place to play and feel welcome. Granted the store is tiny and maybe we can’t play games there but if I just felt welcome to look around and make a decision without feeling as though I’m annoying the manager I’d go there more often, but as it stands? I’m good. I’ll buy from other stores that at least pretend to appreciate their customers.
u sound more like a pox on the hobby not everyone needs to or can afford to spend such crazy prices every time they play
@@zacharybecker8228 huh?
@@zacharybecker8228 Thank you for your thoughtful reply. You have a great day.
Here in Japan also. There are like 7 stores in the country, but when they are big enough, they allow games. Akihabara opened a Warhammer Cafe actually, that encourages hanging out, drinking coffee, browse the minis and books. They got large dioramas, several big scale tables ro play and designated painting areas.
Harajuku has playtables, I think Chiba as well.
I have to be honest with you North, I do think Games Workshop have lost touch to the human aspect.
That said, its a much deeper problem in all areas of the hobby.
In regards to the Store-Games, I think it brings the attention of customers out from the Street-Level.
There's always some rotten apples, however I know through your history as a manager you gave it all a middle-ground and at least kept a honest face.
A lot of it should be said through the wisdom of moral standards - Where Credit Is Due - Respect Is Earned -
It just sad, that a few can destroy a hobby area like that.
Its one of the main reaons why I lost interest in the hobby, when it comes to overreacting man-childs who can't behave themselves because of their damaged ego the rest of us needs to constantly hear from.
I know you get both sides to this ongoing horror, more than most to be honest with you.
But its the lacking of both social skills, common critical thinking and that respect towards others that really kills the hobby when we talk about people's behavior.
Its more or less why I only stick to friendly related games, 9th really killed it for me to be honest because of the tiresome competition-creep we get constantly.
It is not just an issue with the hobby, it is an issue in every aspect of the economy. As investors assert ever more influence over the companies they invest in, said companies care less and less about the customers, less and less about their product/services, and only care about the investors. Their first thought is investors, their last thought is investors their only thought is investors.
Honestly 8th and 9th have both felt lije they focus more on casual and naritive games. Sure they have stuff for the competitive crowd but they no longer pull the cart.
My local store had an “ I don’t actually want to do this “ post on their Facebook page asking people to make sure they are clean and smelling good before entering. They point out it’s a minority that will ruin it for others.
So I can agree with the stance of those people being asked to sort themselves out. Is a shame as seeing people gaming and talking rules while it was friendly really impressed my partner as she never knew of it all before meeting me.
It's a horrible conversation to have to have, even indirectly via a social media post. Worst conversation I had as a line manager was with someone about their personal hygiene and to make matters worse they spoke barely a word of English so I had to use a translator.
To this day I don't know if they mirrored my carefully chosen to be as inoffensive as possible words or just said "this guy says you stink and need a bath"
@@phoenixheart79 1999 on the coach to the NIA for Gamesday and Golden Demon I was standing behind a regular in the service station and it was not pleasant.
This post was certainly one the manager did not want to write but had to do so.
Had this problem in a gaming store I used to frequent in South Wales. A few friends and myself used to go there on a fairly frequent basis, to buy and play Magic The Gathering, buy roleplaying merch, models & paints. Then there was this handful of people who were at the shop from the time it was open till the time the shutters went down, They used to bring food and drink into the store, think they owned the place. They were loud, obnoxious, if someone was just browsing the shelves or book racks they would ask that individual what they were looking for. Basically thinking they worked there or even owned the store. I had actually seen people open the door, take a step inside, see this group and how loud they were then walk back out. Needless to say the store closed down, last time I walked past it was a coffee shop. Just goes to shop that if you want to gain new customers and keep them you need to portray a warm friendly atmosphere, not a place for arrogant unkempt morons to gather.
Playing in store was a massive help for me and my friend as teenagers learning to play early 5th edition. We don't play there anymore but it sure was a big influence
There are two options in dealing with people who smell, have no social skills and are unpleasant to be around: You get rid of them or you help them.
Everybody wants to be liked. Unfortunately some people never learn how it's done. And a culture of gaming, internet and media to hide from social interactions isn't helping troubled kids to get out of their shell. These people exist and the ONLY way they'll ever change is by having a social environment that they can learn and practice in.
And lets be real here.. GW products DO attract such people. So a store has an amazing opportunity of creating a space and community where these people can grow, come out of their shells and learn important skills. Sure telling them to stay away is the easy solution. But its also morally wrong imho.
I feel like if you don't know how something works it's your job to learn. And if you KNOW how it's done its your job to teach. So socially strong people have the obligation to offer their insights to the ones who lack them. At least that's how i see it.
Exactly why I say that inclusiveness is wrong. It just enables this type of behaviour where everyone else has to adapt to these sponges just because they shield under a label.
Instead, though love forces people to learn and even empath with common game etiquette. That self diagnosed mind sick girl who identifies herself as a man is no different from that guy who smells like onion and fish and keeps bad sportsmanship as a lifestyle.
This is hilarious to me because having a place to play with the minis was a big selling point when I worked at GW. It was a key point to talk about the dedicated league nights and having drop in game space, I was taught to steer the best painted armies closer to the front of the store to show them off. What's the selling point now? Now you better be part of a play group that plays at someone's house or have enough space to host yourself or you're out of luck.
I've literally used games workshop to break the ice personally for new cities I've lived in. It was a short cut to meeting a bunch of new people easily, and inevitably one or two of them would click and become friends. Now I have zero incentive to involve GW in that. Now I'll pick an independent gaming store and just start a new game based on what's being played the night I can go
It's a double edged sword for me. Standards are necessary, no one wants people coming in who can't keep a personal hygiene routine. But, by not playing games in store, it can be hard to even play a game. As a guy coming back into the hobby, I don't have the old crew I played with anymore. A chance to meet and play in a store can open up new friendships and new opportunities for those new and returning people, to game and buy models.
My closest shop is an hour or more away, just getting some other friends into the hobby so we can play in our current town in our basement, Space Wolves, Death Guard, World Eaters,Tyranids with eldritch theme. Plus when we were at the Games workshop the back was full already, that city has a shit ton of people so does our town. I think playing at the shop would be nice but not viable for many.
Another advantage to having people play in store is that prospective customers can see real people playing the actual game. Like someone may come see a game in progress and be like “oh neat how does that work?” Then a sales rep can be brought in for the sales pitch and they can run the demo. Like I noticed having more people doing the hobby worked to get people interested who otherwise might not have been when I worked at GW.
With this news and a lot of local comic shops closing up, there's not too many places to play much anymore. One of the things I see being a thing could be Private Wargaming Clubs. Think like those private country clubs but for wargaming. Someone could rent an office space or unused restaurant (a lot of those on the market since covid and everyone lives at home now) and set up tables for play. Instead of making making money from sales you collect membership fees from players who are looking to play with other people. People are free to play whatever version they like, and the club could have a library of older rulebooks for players to try out. Maybe rent out painted armies for a game for players who don't have an army. Plus since its a private club there could be rules set up for etiquette and personal hygiene so that you can remove "that guy" without him coming back. You could also have a makerspace there for people to come and paint minis and maybe 3D printers for people to use for bits they need. Also you could have a snack shack for a small source of profit. Look at the business model of Country Clubs, Comic Cafes, Lounges, and Maker Spaces work for setting something like this up.
You're aware that those already exist all over the world, right?
@@awordabout...3061 Yes but I've yet to see them in my country.
Independent stores. A store. A place to game. A community.
from I now hearing. I am over the moon that I sold all my games work shop items.
I used to spend alot of time in the store even helped them out when ever I could. most of my money was spent there. never got a starter kit. just bulit up over time. I then moved over to role playing games. I have never left the role playing games. games workshop had some roling playing games I gm them in my city, untill it stopped.
I recently came to my local GW after break from hobby (and them changing location) and cashier-man-child-thing straight up told me it's "showroom, not gaming store". All gaming tables? "Please no tuchy tuchy" dioramas.
They do make events, sometimes, but going in and playing game with friends? You either have to be big spender (and with other shops giving 20-30% off that's NOT gonna happen) or know someone from staff.
Kinda sad.
But hey, I got battle honors leaflet. Recruitment, Recruitment, Recruitment.
When I lived in Enfield, the locaL GW had veterans night where I joined a bloodbowl league alongside a bunch of other games being played. My friend and I turned up one night having just played tennis and dressed accordingly. We were getting very odd looks from the other patrons as if playing a sport was an alien concept.
This may be a little tin foil hat-y, but I wonder if it's to do with the rules not being great and so they don't want people complaining about the game in public where new recruits may hear or see. It's not great advertisement to see people play the game and not enjoy it because of the rules that the store wants you to pay £30-40 for.
That's actually not a bad point, especially for end of 7th and all of 9th. Remember detatchments? I blood do :(
I played a 4 person fantasy game in store, I didn't have my army and was asked to fill a spot using the stores army(I don't know what it was called but lots of beasts) had a charge with awesomely good dice throwing on my part, ended up with extra charges and ended up smashing one opponent and he spat the dummy, took his army and left, I never played again. So I believe that the store should be choosey about who they let play.
I agree. Great miniatures, rubbish over complex game
I 3d print my models and the only reason I buy GW models is so I can play in GW stores, resin printers have quality that match and a lot of the time are better then the injection mould models (and are only getting better) and the 3d sculptures are growing more numerous and making higher detailed sculpts to go with the better printers so for me and the other people that print we kinda don't care about GW models and being able to play a game at a GW store is the only thing that is valuable so if I can't play at a store I have no reason to buy their models. Just thought another angle to this might be interesting
Once you've seen a 40 year old have a tantrum at a 10 year old over a dice roll, you understand why.
I can't say I blame them, really. People in this hobby can be really friggin weird, man. There's a reason there are so many hobby nightmare stories. I've been in this hobby off and on since 1995 and I've seen a lot; from really amazing people to those that you don't wanna spend time with. And the latter are the ones that seem to keep turning up.
And not for nothin', but people are getting more aggressive and antisocial in public. I work for a Pediatric urgent care network, and after the pandemic, we had to put up signs saying what behavior wouldn't be tolerated. We've had to get security in every center because the parents are becoming unruly and threatening. It was unthinkable before, now it's a common occurrence.
I think GW wanted to do that at the start of 9th with the rules of sportsmanship in the base rules. Warhammer could be taken more serious with a much more elite Apple-store flair. Back in the days, my wife teased me for playing with the smelly men in the store, and truth be told, there were actual real stinkers among them.
However, I do not think it is sensible business-wise to shrink the player base even more, if GW wants to survive. Although they are already heavily whale-hunting, some of these whales are real stinkers, both odorly and personality wise. At least an official "No Shoes, No Deo, No Service" sign would make the playing experience more pleasurable.
I'm in Virginia, USA. I just moved to my current town. There's this awesome games workshop store that is run by one guy. I literally mean one guy. Just one. He's open 5/7 days a week. There's 3 large tables and the walls hold the minis. I've only been there once. I'm a new player/painter but have listened to multiple lores and am decently mentally invested in this. This store was one of the most welcoming places and even welcomes you to come in and paint when there's room.
It might be a UK thing or that it's just based on different demographics.
Interesting vid. My local Warhammer store actively encourages playing in store. They have specific time slots for kids to ensure a safe place and teach kid groups the variety of GW games. They also have other times for adults playing WarCry, Kill Team and 40K. All players are held to a player code of practice regarding language and behaviour. I have never seen any customer breach those rules which is a testament to the character of the players.
I assume a GW store does not include the more privately owned Local Game Shops that just happen to also sell some GW models. Because every store I've ever been in has gaming tables and games played there.
I agree with you a little bit. When I was younger about 15 years ago I got into the hobby. I went to the local hobby shop with my mom, and the people there lacked personal hygiene and acted like children. It was a bit of a turn off to the hobby, and it made it hard to get my mom to take me to hobby shops after that. I’m not too judgy nowadays, but I get what you are coming from.
Just an anecdote from my time as a red shirt in the early 2000's but there was a senior manager at GW HQ who was pushing for no games in stores and to replace the gaming space with blister racks. He ended up being demoted and eventually left the company with a year or so, it just shows the cultural change GW leadership that someone was lambasted for suggesting taking gaming out stores but it's now a thing.
In all honesty I stopped going into GW stores after I left in 2006 as I was just burned out from the hobby, since then I've played occasionally at local clubs or with friends but the change in store atmosphere is so different I don't see it as somewhere to hang out and meet people, which honestly makes sense, it's a shop not a social club.
I do agree with the personal responsibility part, I've had to have a word with several kids and some young adults about their personal hygiene and it's not a nice conversation to have, as an advertisement for a product and store it doesn't offer a good first impression.
I think a happy medium used to be smaller sized games, at the time 40K tournament play was around 1500 or 1750 points, to avoid "power gamers" we used to limit games during the day to 1000 points with only games nights allowing up to 1500 points (or 2K for Fantasy, 6th ed, yikes!), there was definitely give and take but now it seems its all changed and probably for the best.
Should also be noted that for the primarily one person store setup they definitely don't have the time to do the old style run campaigns whilst arbitrating rules and enforcing store standards plus run intro games, use the till, replenish the store and possibly even clean, not like the good old days of key timers and stores having 6-10 staff!
"You guys cant fight here, this is the war room!"
New blood means nothing if they don't mix with old blood.
It legit sounds like the more invested in GW you are, the less they are in return to you.
It feels like they only care about the initial purchases people make. The starter sets, the rule books, the first paints etc. anything to lure you in to the hobby and get you invested
Once you are, start buying models less frequently as your maintaining an army not building one, have the paints and actually want somewhere to play the game you’ve been lured into they couldn’t give a shit, you mean nothing. Your worth less to them than the new players
@@josephhughes2429 watch the video from yesterday about games in store. It makes sense GW dgaf about the game anymore
I think stores should be about playing with lots of tables even in the back. They should sell models and supplies but also build a community.
living in my new area there are 3 WH stores within an hour of me. Iv always been confused on why they have such small stores and gaming spaces. But every time guaranteed the tables are being used.
As a few other commenters have stated, that does sound a lot more like a UK / Europe thing than a US thing. My local GW only has 3 tables and is fairly tight, but my manager buddy always encourages people to show up for events he runs every weekend and loved to get pictures of the store packed and crowded. He often runs escalation leagues, tells people to come to his free painting classes, and encourages people to come in for combat patrol or incursion games during week days. His only exception is if someone wants to play a 2k or bigger type game they need to reserve a table a day or two in advance. KPIs also seem like something stressed more in the UK as I asked the manager about those to see if there was something I could buy to help his store numbers when I wanted to try something new and he just said that all sales are good sales and that they don't care quite as much about that over here. Should move out this way and get a better taste in your mouth even if we pay about 30% more than y'all lol
It's like a pub selling beer u can't drink on site
Wish my game store had the balls to kick out the toxic players. Maybe we'd still have people showing up for tournaments there.
And the warhammer people? They're the same neckbeards that chased out the magic community. Add that to the part where they don't keep warhammer stocked except the stuff the owners and their friends want.
The best recruiting and advertising GW could hope for was fan made youtube movies and animations and GW went out of their way to shut those
down which tells you everything you need to know about how they operate. They care about one thing and thats sales.
Seems like some greedy xenos with nothing but profit in their mind took over and corrupted them.
Thank You! Finally someone said it! GW killing those fan made movies is like chaining an anvil to your ankle and swimming the Channel.
I'm sure I heard this from Girl Painting on one of her UA-cam videos or something i.e. that veteran players in some stores are not being allowed to use GW tables to play their hobby. I should imagine that's because many are just using GW shops as a 'free gaming club' and not buying anything whatsoever in the GW store. This was a problem at one of the GW stores in a very big city in Spain near a very famous football stadium, the manager was just inviting his mates and favorite 'hobby loyalists to him' who were buying "nada" / zilch/ zero and always playing games there, other customers were not treated great sometimes - his sales hardly paid for the rent. He was pushed out 2 years ago and he had to leave and set up his own hobby store having had loads of paid time off for some 'illness' also; if you read the Google Reviews for his GW store that he left one person wrote that he ran the store like a beach bar for his mates (un chiringuito). Incidently I went into a GW store in the same city in Spain last week and saw veteran players in there and asked about whether only introductory games were being allowed and they said 'nope' even regular customers and friends of the shop are allowed and that it was up to the discretion of the manager.
Maybe? But most of the veteran players I know still buy product. I mean, I've been playing Dark Angels since around 2001 (and have about 14000 points of them), but I still bought a 2000 point Imperial Knights army when the new codex recently came out, and plan on buying Leagues of Votann once there's more product available. There are certainly people who don't want to/can't afford to buy more than they already have, but the bottom line is, having people to play against is what keeps those of us that do buy thousands of dollars of product a year still buying thousands of dollars of product a year 20 years after we started.
@@cassiecaradoc2070 That's pretty much the point. If someone plays there without buying anything he is still an asset to the store as long as he is not negatively affecting sales.
@@cassiecaradoc2070 The people he is talking about aren't veteran players, they are the person running the store's friends. They are the worst because they feel that they own the store and are fine with not buying anything. People that are invested in the hobby tend to buy stuff.
Bizarre. I remember so looking forward to Thursday night games night at the local store. It would stay open later (along with a lot of business) and it would either be bring and play or they'd do in store campaigns where everyone got a unit to play with in a massive narrative game that was run by the on of the staff. It was IMMENSELY popular. So many people in the store drawing others in with the noise and fun for a few hours on one night of the week. My local store was alway really friendly on painting too. If you wanted to come in and get some tips on painting and use store paints they were more than happy. Of course you wouldn't bring in a ton of minis and batch paint but if you were there they loved it. Tiny investment. 100% behind you about responsibility and honesty. You wouldn't put up with a douchebag at you home or in a normal hobby club. There are standards and expectations. A GW store is not a public space to do and act however you want. Ultimately though 99% of people are going to be really good in store and it's the 1% runing it for the rest.
I play at my local warhammer store every week! Store Manager knows everyone and sets up all the tables and really puts the effort in and it shows just from the volume of people that attend, it gives everyone something to look forward to each week!
Companies are often the single greatest obstacle in their managers success.
Because Gamers (People Playing Games) are "poison" and you want them "out of your store".
This has been the attitude of GW for a long time and recanonizing the Rainbow Warriors 🌈 won't change that.
20 years ago I would go into GW as a young teenager and buy stuff then build it up and paint it, that was my experience. Never played games, that was either Friday after school in the library or at a friends/my house. As an adult I just don't set foot in a GW store, it's always either at an independent FLGS or at a friends/my house. GW stores seem like a relic of the past, they don't offer any value over a regular hobby store.
I’m new to the hobby and in the U.S. so I don’t know if it’s just my local Warhammer store that’s doing it’s own thing or what but every Saturday they host games, when I first visited the store and the manager started to explain all this to me he told me the games people play in his store are combat patrol maybe a little bigger, last Saturday when I went to play for the first time there were a couple people doing an introductory painting session, after they finished painting they came to watch the game were asking questions, asking to look at our models that were dead, etc.
As long as stores set a standard for player conduct and game size there should be no problem with games in the store that way a parent coming in with their kid doesn’t feel overwhelmed by the size (and therefore cost) of the game and don’t feel uncomfortable with the kinds of players in the community.
unfortunately here the hobbyist scene has for a long time been split into 2 groups: the people who played at the store game nights, and the people who played at the store once, were creeped out by the first group, and with the aid of a quick google found this second group meeting up elsewhere. and this was nothing to do with the store itself or their staff, but that first group of players embodied every negative stereotype of the hobby you can think of, gathered in one room.
My town had a little comic and game shop but the lease was too much for the little shop. The owners admitted that it was more of a hobby for them and enjoyed the store when it was breaking even. With the modern market though it was actually starting to lose money quick. They closed doors.
Thankfully, the one of the owners is a good friend of mine and I very kind man. He hosts games in his garage now for all of us that are in the group. It's much harder to find new players now because we have to get to know them before inviting them over. Luckily, we have a great playgroup and we all chip in.
The weirdo B.O crew was the reason I didn’t go into store much. I also had a nice alternative as a couple of teachers at my school used to run an afterschool thing for 40k, MTG, Warhammer Fantasy etc so I went there instead. But even without that I wouldn’t have been going into store to play games. Its not just GW where that’s a thing either, I went to a local games store for MTG, Friday night magic etc, some of the people there were just sound and others were just wrecks.
This video was a breath of fresh air, considering what GW vids I'm used to seeing on UA-cam. Speaking as a former HCM, I can back most of what you said -particularly the deplorable personal standards that the 'regulars' would exhibit and how it presents to new prospective customers. I do think you missed a few points that could of further added context, but I also acknowledge that our experiences may yet differ, especially because there is a half a world between our countries (I live in Australia). I'll touch on one example, regarding the recruitment KPI; DV wasn't the only core product to sell, there were the paint sets that were also tracked. But I also suspect that the Head of Sales in AU was a much more flexible boss to report to than anyone in the UK. I'd elaborate further, but I'm not going to, because no-one asked, and I'm not thrilled at writing a novel's worth of unsolicited experiences that people in the comments will likely refute just because it doesn't fit their narrative. So I'll wrap this up by saying thank you Northern Exile, I understand you in the way that one only can from walking in your shoes, and you've got my sub.
The one man store in my city (Albany/Schenectady NY) is 30 minutes away near latham (Most likely cheaper rent) to reach it, and it while they have room for a few tables i've never once seen it used during the few visits I've made. I stopped going because they never had anything in stock, even starter kits! Last time I went to buy the new Killteam starter directly (wanted to support the local shop like an idiot) and they didnt even have a single one, while every other local games/comic shop had dozens. Half the shelves were also bare bones, so I decided to pick up a few paints that I would be needing soon enough and of course they only had shitty odd colors left. All the good/useful colors were sold out. So I left with like 2 paint pots and decided to no longer use that shop. Why would I drive 30 minutes out of the way to pay more for items at a shop that doesnt even offer games or even STOCK to chose from during an impulse buy!
There's supposedly one other GW/Warhammer store in downtown, but that part of the city isnt anything you visit for something like warhammer! Especially if you are not a minority. So I doubt i'll ever visit it to see if they actually keep stock. Which, I doubt as the crack/meth heads would steal it~
I never knew BO was such a big problem for GW stores 😆
Great video and content! First time visited to your channel(subscribed). It’s a privilege to be able to buy and enjoy a “first world “game and hobby! Sure there are lots of options to keep games in the store. I am 58 years old and been playing games workshop games since 1991. The last 15 years, here in America, it has only gotten worse at games workshop stores for game play. Many hobbyists are rude, clickish’ unkind to new people, swear, unkept, bad winners, complainers when the lose, and act very entitled. Why would I want to bring my grandchildren there. I prefer the local shops where owners/managers keep strict rules of conduct. They have private conversations that help hobbyists manage their behaviors to promote an experience that can be enjoyed by all. I have not had a bad experience with employees of game workshop or their managers. But it is the last place I take anyone to introduce them to the hobby. It’s just not a fun place! But it could be! Thanks for your honesty.
"Oh there's a premier of-" "Love you all longtime, goodnight." Last ten seconds still means I caught it technically ... Anyhow no games in stores is a Grade A stupid idea.
GW had stopped being game-friendly in 2017 or earlier, in Northern Virginia. Stores kept getting smaller, tables went fewer. Nowadays, a store is lucky to have ONE gaming table. They've become little more than a model and paint kiosk.
Thing of it is, I can get everything in the stores, in the LGS. Or, online, the one week out of a year that they have the model I need in stock.
This is what will kill the company, of course: literally, the only incentive to buy overpriced minis and broken rules banned by tournaments, is the ability to play in a store. Without that carrot at the end of the stick? There is literally nothing stopping me from buying third-party minis. Nothing makes me want to buy their terrain. Nothing makes me want to use their cracked rules.
No store games, no store community, no incentive to stay within the lines of a company that has betrayed us all at every turn.
I shall continue to be happy buying, building, customizing and playing literally anything else. GW and their products belong in the Harbor.
...that said, yeah, take a damn shower, if you play in public. Duh.
Once you start playing games outside GW you see other miniature games being played with much better rules (and price point) and it breaks through the Stockholm Syndrome.
No point recruiting if they can't keep you. Forcing people into 3rd party stores just allows other games companies to benefit from the GW recruitment.
As we're seeing with a lot of public faces of Warhammer, the company has a terrible track record of keeping people who are good for the business because of their awful ideology.
Games in store is about community and that should be the priority of stores over individual profit because the company shouldn't care where their product is purchased, so stop punishing staff with arbitrary targets.
So in Australia this will be an actual issue because some capital cities dont even have a LGS or a gaming community area they just have a tiny warhammer store with 2 tables. so them banning playing in that store will actually stop ANY games workshop being played in that city that isnt just at a mates place
My local GW store is completely different, in fact the manager and I hang out fairly often. We play squash together, we paint minis, we play video games together too! All the time he challenges me or I challenge him to games at the store and often invites me and other customers to tournaments. Other staff also play games of 30k, Necromunda and even Blood Bowl at the store. Must just be an Australian thing then lmao
My GW store in Calgary is very uncomfortable to enter. Several of the male employees wear makeup or are now known as Nancy. I don't even want to enter the store anymore. I don't feel like dealing with their gender problems.
Yeah, never been to an Actual Warhammer store, only play at a LGS that sells Warhammer, board games, Magic, etc. Closest Warhammer store is in my states capital which is 4 hours away (280 miles), I would like to check one out but not going that far to look at the models I can buy here at a discount.
Killed table top gaming in my area. Flgs closed. We don't have clubs (rent too high , plus no rent space) and we don't play at home. We have a GW store (one per country) you can play 2 demo games of any game, then they won't let you at the store unless it is to buy stuff.
Issue I found was more that the store developed kind of a "clique" of certain people who would be allowed to play in store who where elitist in the way they played, not friendly to a new player and actually made me go to another store to go and buy and play, after the games got cancelled all of a sudden they don't show up anymore and the local store seems to have more footfall.... odd that really
A 'Players Club' with stated rules of conduct will go a long way of solving the problem for both parties.
😀🇺🇲😀
Thanks
OK. My view.
I run a tabletop games company primarily based around Call of Cthulhu and D&D. The last time I was in a GW was about 15 years ago. I went in to the Harrogate store with my 8yr old daughter and saw a 30+Yr old man screaming across a table at a 12yr old kid for having the wrong colour goblin army. He was scruffy, his belly was hanging below his top, and he was rude and aggressive. He was the manager. I never went back.
Recently, a friend offered to run me through some GW games at a local Geek Retreat in Chester. I had a great time hanging out with my friend who is a little autistic. He gets carried away and talks a lot but he's a good lad.
There were 6 of us around the table and I mentioned that I remembered GW in a time when their biggest asset was their floorspace and each shop seemed to have one employee but was loved by visitors as they got to chat, paint, and play.
To my surprise I learned that Chester still had a GW and it was TEN doors down. To get cool and get some air I wandered down and looked through the GW window.
It was empty. Geek Retreat was packed.
If you want your customers to be neat. If you want your customers to be well groomed and polite, then set up a jazz cafe. Geeks will be geeks.
I think it's enormously arrogant of a company that thinks it's average customer isn't good enough to get involved in its shop's activities. My friend's autism can seem bothersome by GW standards so he doesn't go there and so, neither do we. GW is toxic, has been since Livingstone and Jackson left or at least since White Dwarf issue 100.
GW's customers owe GW NOTHING and GW owes it's customers EVERYTHING.
Back in early 90's when I was about 14, I used to spend my entire day in the store playing games, watching games and painting models and hanging out with friends. I loved it, the store was always packed and there was a good friendly atmosphere in there. No idea if the store made money or was deemed successful, but that same store is still there now. I don't play any more but when I walk past or on the rare occasion, pop in, the place is dead, how is that a good advert for the hobby?
You make a great point and I agree with you. In the US you'd probably want to formalize things a bit more, invitations or somesuch with written desired characteristics, at least for managers, to defend against possible discrimination lawsuits. The air of favoritism can be offputting, disincluding, but on the whole I agree with you and you make a great point.
Brick and mortar GW stores are getting smaller. And with high rental and other overheads, it's only natural that they reserved the space for merchandise. On the other hand, there are more independent operators who fill in the gap when GW switched priorities. These operators rent out space for tabletop gamers and where I come from, >80% live in small public housing so these independent operators are a boon. They are affiliated with the major tabletop gaming brands and they retail a selection of the products which helps draw new customers and also increase exposure.
I’ve never once realized why I had so many reservations of the game until recently when I’ve stopped caring what others think about me (a mildly successful and hardworking individual with a reputation for being social) it’s because some of the people that play gross me out to an outrageous level. I’m sorry it’s true take care of yourself and that’s not a dig it’s a real concern for my health as well as yours. Either way I bought some ork 40k minis and have been having a blast painting while watching UA-cam after my 11 hours shifts. It’s pretty relaxing
Store manager from 2010 to 2015 year. Games stopping started becoming something the higher ups were pushing from the one man stores introductions. They put a huge push on manager training when I started. Massive support. Then on the fine cast period (2012ish) they got rid of regional managers, and the old collating of performing/similar sized stores too. It meant you felt so alone. Plus you were putting about 60 hour weeks in (if preparing and running the store properly) to plan events and such. A planned event of gaming was fine and small games nights were ok. But they were frowned upon unless they were shown by the manager to be linked to products and a way of making money. To a degree I kind of agreed with this. And I think with a good manager they could be ran well. However. You had to put tons of time and resources into keeping it going, ready, and planning to plan. Way too much work for one man. You ended up burning out like I did. I remember at one point. Sitting after close in my store, ringing another manager of 15 years and crying (ashamed to say). Not my best experience. Planning daily weekly and monthly events with little time to know what was coming out back then (changed since I know) keeping the store spotless, customers happy, stock and tables looking lovely. For one man it was either my whole life and doing well or it was tanking and I felt like a failure.
I completely agree. I used to live opposite a fantastic FLG but would travel an hour away to play at a different one because people were cleaner and the place didn’t stink to the high heavens. Nothing is worse than booking a table in a gaming basement, only to show up to be warm room, thick with the smell of BO and have to decide if you are actually able to play the game you have so heavily invested in, or if you have to leave with a literal bitter taste in your mouth
Have to say, I make gaming tables as a hobby and sell them, I have made a few for stores, everytime I have been in one to get inspiration it stinks of BO, so I just stopped going. The last one I went to had a group of guys around a table arguing, while a father came in with his son saw this and just walked out. It does help the store to have games going, seeing models painted and seeing models that might interest you, as you will more then likely go and pick them up yourself, but the idea of guys standing around arguing, stinking to high heaven, won't sell a thing. I even remember walking upto the store that used to be in manchester Arndale you could smell the place down at other store.
I don’t think this is limited to Warhammer. I remember at one point going to a generally hobby store( comics, magic the gathering, Warhammer,etc) and my girlfriend at the time never wanted to go in exactly because the type of gamers you talk about in this video.
And yet, and this is the real irony here, the way they structure and present their game and its universe foster exactly the kind of competitive one-upsmanship that those undesirable gamers thrive on. They are literally catering to the audience that is damaging their gaming community.
@KanashiiFX Please explain to me how you got "emotional instability and BO" out of "competitive one-upsmanship".
i must admit we do need to have this self policing, i turn up to my local game store to buy paints/the off box of models to support my store, and its dead. its so small its only the store manager in there half the time, i remember going into the store with my dad and seeing people playing games and browsing not even 10 years ago and now it s a shell of what it used to be, games and showing an active community are a big part of what makes starting the hobby less daunting i feel
Honestly, never have played a game in a GW store, never really felt like a gaming environment to me imo. I’ve just always stuck to my FLGS and met loads more people there too
I used to love store campaigns. Not even many local hobby stores do it now though
This policy happened at the friar lane store in Nottingham, the home city of the bloody company over 6 years ago. You had to book to play a game and then you couldn't play your game because the tables were suddenly allocated for an introduction game (where the employees were pushed into selling a starter set to that person immediately) this is on top of gradually phasing out the ability for you to put together and paint the models you bought in that very store.. Now this account is a personal anecdote. I cannot verify any of this with documents, take it with a pinch of salt. But a thriving group of regulars in both time and money investment moved away from the hobby by this practice. People like me with 10's of thousands of pounds invested who built this company are brushed aside and considered irrelevant. But the wider audience they want to increase sales have come in so as far as GW is concerned, job done!
It usually depends on the location. Here in my city at Canada, we have one store locally, and they do have tables available for gaming so as long as they’re booked and having your owned terrain and game boards ready. I was unaware of this and it’s a bummer to see what it’s becoming in the area…😮
Used to love playing at my local GW, pandemic happened then I realised if I did go in there the pressure to buy stuff was immense and the atmosphere was a bit dry. Having other people in the shop ask questions throughout and customers navigating past you whilst you try to play just isn't ideal. I know its a shop first then a place to game second, but when my other LGS has epic background music, lots more custom boards and terrain with a dedicated gaming area with its own refreshments it just cant be beat. Used to be good friends with the management though, however now they're gone its back to the drive sales energy which is a massive shame for a community driven shop.
So, they took over the tournament system from Frontline Gaming, presumably because they thought they could run the tournaments better, but then they stop gaming in the stores, so it kind of seems like GW don't want to recruit new players but are, like other companies like Disney, Marvel, DC, etc., deliberately trying to drive their existing fanbase away.
Players could organize playing locations, tournaments etc. through some kind of non-profit or player's society, it could be run like the ITC, but funded by player donations and memberships, the way sporting leagues once operated, but the company would have to be willing to allow the player's society to operate independently while still using GW's 'intellectual property' to promote themselves and the game. Unfortunately, GW has become the kind of company that threatens to sue fans who are paying their own money to advertise GW's products.
picking and choosing who can use game tables is classed as discrimination and can lead to law suits if your not real careful ☹....
the WAY AROUND THIS PROBLEM is as follows ...
you make your gaming tables a "V.I.P EXPERIENCE" , with a visible DRESS CODE & certain "REQUIREMENTS" ... similar to the rules of a fancy restaurant(without the food )....
available to everyone 12yrs+ who meets the "STANDARD" .. complete with booking reservations & table prices etc. ....
this way , only the "BEST MEMBERS OF THE GAMING COMMUNITY" are representing GAMES WORKSHOP , GW gets to make a little bit of $ , and the GW community has a place to play ... EVERYBODY WINS 😀😃🤩🤑
I've seen this all before and I agree to an extent.
The real question is though, have they adjusted their KPIs, the new 'commander' system is a good idea, but as they've dropped 'start collecting' sets, and insist on space marines being in every starter (i understand this point, I'm not wholely arguing against that) then they're not exactly depicting their IP in their introduction.
So what are the KPIs nowadays, and also what is their hiring practice.
My store manager was transferred to Oxford Street a few months ago, Pablo, very good chap, and his replacement has just been the cover worker, who doesn't know anything about hobby, lore or rules, so how effective can he be at recruitment when he can't describe the products he's selling, can't run an intro painting session nor an intro gaming session.
I went in last week and he was telling a 10yr old that they can paint with contrast over bare plastic!, I was the entire shop away and the kids mum caught my facial expression which was as close as you could get to a no audio snort of derision, whilst I browsed blood angels.
Whilst he ran the kid through a 'starter game', the mum came and spoke to me.
Asked me 'have you been doing this for a while?'
'about 15 years'
'oh wow, can I ask you some questions'
'yeah of course, what did you need to know'
'i noticed you didn't look very impressed when he was talking about paints'
'yeah sorry, i paint a lot, I wouldn't recommend what he said about contrast, it really needs primer, the base paints you can get away without primer, but not contrast'
And we had a conversation about priming, painting, and hobby in general.
I did used to work for GW, it's not the first time I've had this conversation, and in the end I'm probably responsible for half of the sale.
Knowing that the store basically didn't play, I suggested to the mother that she look into Warhammer clubs at his school, see if there are any so on and so forth.
Otherwise recruitment is pointless if you're just going to lose the customer because they're completely disconnected from the hobby, and certainly in my town, GW is completely removed from any sense of community.
Long winded I know, but I think it shows, GW are interested in profit, solely so they can add value to their IP, to sell off to another company to use, they need us for that, but they don't want us for it either.
Yet ANOTHER reason GW deserves to get bent. I haven't given them a nickel in nearly two years, swearing them off until I see better business practices. I've been grabbing pirated .stl files for my 3D printer and buying from eBay recasters ever since, and switched over the last of my paint collection from the Citadel stuff. They can do whatever the hell they want; I need five years of GW demonstrating markedly better treatment of their audience before they get another cent from me.
As you said, you'd need to curate people you allow to game in your stores but a lot of times it's *those* people who come in and spend an absolute fortune that are often the ones you kinda don't want hanging around the store. Like your Moanhawk guy, you mentioned he was pretty well off and would buy tons of models. GW don't care that he brings the stores atmosphere down, they're there to sell that guy models and it's just easier for them to have the 'buy models and GTFO' approach rather than having anything but introductory games set up.
Basically GW don't want to risk lost sales over people being upset that they can't play at the store...so yeah...money wins over building a community because it's easier to make money than it is to build a good community.
I am here in Southern California and with space for retail being at a premium there’s never been large game stores that have room for large role-playing games. It’s usually a few tables and that’s it
Played games at a store that had a list of reasons of why games should not be played at the store. Things like easier shoplifting to non paying customers. Then next to it was a list of why games should be played. Last one was "This store would close without games being played." Few years later after a change in management it was proven right.
off topic question, what game are you playing in the video ? it looks pretty awesome
A dull, quiet shop with a single employee sitting behind the cash register is not conducive to growing the hobby. But what does grow the hobby is an exciting store with gamers laughing, rolling dice, and actively enjoying the products you're trying to sell. For GW to assume that the majority of their adult customer base is comprised of detrimental assholes is sad but not surprising. For decades GW has shown so much disdain for their customer base it's a miracle they're still in business. I worked for some years at a GW store in the PNW in the early 2000s. Our shop always had games going in the evenings and the place was packed on the weekends. This activity generated a great deal of foot traffic, and it was many of those older gamers who enthusiastically explained to the curious 12-year old looking on what he was playing and how it worked. Yes, we would sometimes have to ask someone to leave due to poor behavior, but that was rare. Those were fun times, and I was reminiscing on them recently when visited my local GW shop last Sunday. The place was as exciting as a dentist's waiting room. There were no kids in the place, no one was playing any games, and the demo tables looked neglected. It's sad that this is the type of shop GW encourages.
I fully get what is been said here, myself when i go to my local for a game on the thursday night, i always make sure i'm well dressed and kept,
but i also make sure to have a spare £10 - £20 in pocket and use that vist to grab some paitns brushes a new BL-Book or something as a
"token" to i'm playing but supporting my store for allowing me to do so
Used to go to a Games workshop in Slough UK pre 2000. I recall they bought in a new manager who actively discouraged people from playing games and being in the store.
That´s not harsh. It´s just delivering the message without sugarcoating.
I agree with your points. However I also need to point the following things out: For starters GW stores are tiny. So the appeal of playing there is rather slim. I did a few promo games of Blood Bowl & Necromunda (N17) in a GW store as a favour for the store manager. I provided two fully painted teams out of my collection and my BB pitch from the 90s. What was my reward? The manager shamed me during the promo game because I had "that ancient stuff."
So disrespectful behaviour is also a thing from the side of the store managers. As a result of such attitude the numbers of visitors dropped significantly during Covid and stayed low as people adjusted by hobbying at home. Now she has been ill for months. Whether this is due to the shop tanking I can´t say but a few months ago she shamed me for buying somewhere else when I didn´t order the AoD HH 2.0 box at the store and only ordered dice & transfers. This means the pressure is real. I will avoid that shop like the plague from now on until someone new runs it.
The other thing is GW´s hatred of hobbyists who are 30+ years old. You despise us but love our money. We get it. As a consequence I won´t do any promo for GW games anymore irrespective of location.
I remember speaking to one of the higher ups at a Games Day in '08 or '10. There are certain people within the community that are toxic, it's been a problem for a long time, and GW is finally bringing the hammer down. At this point, they want to make the minis and have the gamers self-govern their communities and games. One can cultivate a community that brings people together (I started a D&D high school program for a library that is still going 3 years later), but there will be bad apples that need to be tossed out. It is what it is.
This is the oposite for my GW store, the manager is encouraging to start leagues for 40k, AoS, Killteam and Warcry. They were even talking of doing a LotR day where whtey could run a big scenario. So at least for me we are encouraged to get to the store and play any time we want
I am here in Southern California and with space for retail being at a premium there’s never been large game stores that have house role-playing games. It’s usually a few tables and that’s it