The Evolutionary Psychology Of Bullies - Tony Volk
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- Опубліковано 13 лип 2024
- Tony Volk is a psychologist, professor of Evolutionary Psychology at Brock University, a researcher and an author.
Almost everyone will encounter bullying at some point in our lives. Be it in school, sports or even at the workplace, there seems to be no shortage of individuals ready to prey on others. But why does bullying exist? Why is it so ubiquitous? And what are the adaptive reasons why people engage in it?
Expect to learn whether bullying actually serves any purpose in society, whether bullying is heritable from parents, what factors can predict whether you will be a bully, whether broken homes make bullying kids, which people are most likely to be victim, whether bullying has got worse over time, what to do if you're the parent of a bully or a victim and much more...
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#bullying #psychology #evolutionarypsychology
00:00 Intro
01:55 Why Bullying Evolved
04:53 The Dynamic Between Bully & Victim
12:54 Why Bullies End Up With More Sexual Partners
16:58 Is Bullying Heritable?
23:00 How Boys & Girls Bully Differently
28:20 Are Bullies Smarter on Average?
36:36 Environmental Factors Affecting Bullying
47:58 Why Our Ancestors Bullied
50:18 How Social Media Has Changed Bullying
57:35 Which Interventions Actually Work?
1:12:44 How to Positively Fight Back
1:24:54 The Importance of Caring for Bullying Victims
1:36:09 Where to Find Tony
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Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - chriswillx.com/books/. Here's the timestamps:
00:00 Intro
01:55 Why Bullying Evolved
04:53 The Dynamic Between Bully & Victim
12:54 Why Bullies End Up With More Sexual Partners
16:58 Is Bullying Heritable?
23:00 How Boys & Girls Bully Differently
28:20 Are Bullies Smarter on Average?
36:36 Environmental Factors Affecting Bullying
47:58 Why Our Ancestors Bullied
50:18 How Social Media Has Changed Bullying
57:35 Which Interventions Actually Work?
1:12:44 How to Positively Fight Back
1:24:54 The Importance of Caring for Bullying Victims
1:36:09 Where to Find Tony
1. Bully - Evolution
2. Bully - Dynamic with Victim
3. Bully - Why have more sexual partners?
4. Bully - Heritable?
5. Bully - Boy/Girls Difference
6.
You have to fight back at all costs. The emotional and psychological price for taking the abuse without fighting back is outstanding. At least if you fight back you can tell yourself that you went toe to toe with evil. Being able to stand on that is paramount for your mental well-being.
As Tony Volk admitted, fighting back *will* stop the bully. That's all that matters. The next kid who gets bullied will have an opportunity to learn and toughen. Bringing in adults, especially in the public school system, only makes it worse.
@@baddoomguy1986 No, he said that it's 50/50. Fight back in the wrong way and the bully will only come back twice as hard the next time because you threaten all their gains. I wish there was an easy answer. But if you're a guy being bullied by a bunch of girls (one of whom is dating a guy who doesn't like you), how do you fight back? Hit them? Insult them? Bullies are masters of turning the tables and playing the victim. It's an ugly, ugly situation to be in. Fighting back might help, but reducing the power by any means necessary (including fighting back, bringing in adults, building yourself up) is the best way out.
The point is not to cost them status, but to add cost. So you pick up the fight outside of school or work.
I once stopped a bully by saying to him.' Keep this up, and one day I will follow you home and at a opportune moment fuck you up when no one's looking. And I'm going to, Take. My. Time. With you! '
The fucker never bothered me again.
@@DennisNeijmeijer One dude i knew tried to bully me 1 on 1, coming to me to mocking my family name again and again. I did to him the same thing he did to me once. He never tried anything again, and avoided me until i changed school. He seems he tried to practice bullying in a secrete way before committing to the lifestyle, but apparently i was too hard to crack.
Bully engage on their own term, when they are ready, when the decide to do it. They are used to have full control of a situation they created. Once you are the one "surprising them" they lose control. Once they are alone without the crew (= borrowed power), they lose power. If you are impredictable, you become dangerous, you stop a victim waiting obediently to be harvest.
Never suffer evil. To allow evil within your vicinity is to consent to it's existence.
Some teachers are also quite twisted and will facilitate bullies, and instead punish attempts at retaliation or self-defence, when they know full well who the bully is. They want to be friendly with the popular kids, because they want to be liked, and they know that the bully has more influence on the class dynamics.
This is important
Especially if the bully is from a wealthy family.
I'm a senior and was in subsidized housing and was bullied. The manager joined and supported the bullies. These bullies drove all the good people out.
@paulwary 100% have seen that ALOT
@@annastone5624 I should also have mentioned that teachers more often ARE the bully. In my high school there was a woodwork teacher known as "Basher Betts", another metalworking teacher (name Bradbury), a sadist who gave the cane by swinging the cane down hard as near as possible to the pupil's fingertips, working his way closer to prolong the torture. I was never caned like that, but I witnessed it several times because he also conducted this torture in front of the whole class. He was also recently convicted of sexual abuse of students from that time many years ago.
In grade 5 primary school I arrived mid-term as a new pupil into a classroom where the lesson was long division. The teacher (name: Harris) asked me had I covered it, I did not recall and answered no. Summoned to the front, he found long division problems in my workbook, and proceeded to shake me like a ragdoll. Then threw my book on the floor and told me to sit on it. Come recess, the boys in the class took it upon themselves to take me to an isolated spot and take turns sitting on me. That year I dont recall having a single friend. Not sure how accurate that is because I dont recall much of anything except being terrorised. The experience changed me, made me a loner for life.
Teaching is relatively easy to enter, and is a magnet for people who have an appetite to exploit or wield power over the defenceless.
Great to finally hear about the reality, rather than hearing how bully is a victim. My bully was a tall, popular guy from a normal family, who had no trouble with girls. People around had no problem with it, even those that were bullied earlier.
Average onlookers think it’s healthy. They also worship status.
This one really hit close to home. The two best days I had in school were the first and the last. At nearly 60, every time I think I've put it past me something will bring it all crashing back.
It really is a shame that often the victims of bullying are the ones who get punished and the bullies receive little to no repercussions. I was bullied elementary through high school and I never retaliated but was punished by teachers and school staff several times for being bullied. I once told a teacher that a kid kept beating me up and I had bruises to show it and she told me "nobody likes a tattletale" and nothing happened to the bully. Another teacher gave me in-school-suspension after a kid kept kicking me. I even had a PE coach that picked on me for no reason (maybe because I was a shy, quiet, kinda nerdy kid and he was a douchey jock who flirted with all the underage girls...). One day he made me stay outside and run the track in the heat the whole class while everyone else got to go inside and have open gym after running 4 laps because he said I "wasn't running fast enough". When I told him I had asthma and couldn't breath and didnt have my inhaler, he basically told me to suck it up and keep running. My mom went to the school and they did nothing about it. Luckily, I was able to move past all that as I grew older, more confident, and outgoing but I definitely empathize greatly with kids affected by bullying. I also have the hindsight to see that many of the kids who bullied me came from pretty terrible situations themselves so I don't hold grudges against them.
(Edited for typos)
I think it's problematic to forgive bad behavior with explanations of what the perpetrator has gone though. It's tempting though.
It makes it easy for people to never really have to face the evil that lives inside them.
Forgive them for sure, but still call out the evil.
I am absolutely so sorry for what you went through and that is horrible! Those bullies and teachers who hurt you should be thrown off a cliff!
@@TheFeatureCreep I guess I more so mean I forgive the kids than the adults. The adults definitely should've known better. At the end of the day, though, life is too short to hold grudges. All of those experiences shaped me into who I am today and taught me a lot so it's not worth me dwelling on.
💯💯👍👍🤦♀🤦♀
The whole situation only exists because society protects and rewards the bully
I've found the best way to deal with bullies is to get them when they are on their own and hurt them, inflict some pain on them. It works like a charm and the best part is you don't even need to hurt them much, just a little goes a long way.
Just a little is enough. They understand you are not a toy they can put onto a shelf until the next time they need you. Bully choose the time, place, and way to bully you successfully. Once you are the one going after them, they lose the choice and control, and they didn't do their preparation work. You kinda find them trousers down.
It's good to have one witness, so they can tell the tale.
Bully the bullies !
I was accused of not fighting "fair". I bit. I squeezed their groin I picked their eyes. Bent their pinkies backwards. The message was. Dont fight me ever. I did not pick on others. I did not want to be a part of the social hiearchy. I did not want to be on top if it. I wanted to stand ourside of it. I did not care if it isolated me as long as I could do my own thing. I regarded my classmates as morons not worth my time.
you sound like a bully
My ex was bullied because she was an ultra achiever. She had a huge glow up during highschool and most of the boys fawned over her because she was both beautiful AND had a 1.5 or higher gpa.
All her female classmates slut shamed her, hid her stuff and all forms of nastiness but the boys still likes her and stood up for her.
Your very existence is a threat. There is no safe space from bullying.
Common story for women unfortunately. Glad there were men that stood up for her
1.5 GPA is terrible. 😂
@@Sentinel82 do you guys not have the same grading system? 1 being perfect and 5 being 0?
@@juhel5531 4.0 is considered perfect here. So a 1.5 would get you kicked out of college pretty much. 😂
@@Sentinel82he probably is from another country
One of the best moments of my life was in 4th grade where I stood up for myself and thwarted two bullies from picking on me. They picked on others too. Not any more after that day. I was the one who was feared and I made sure no bullying happens
Shocking that honesty/humility is a stronger predictor for bullying than empathy!
It’s not that bullies lack empathy; 😞 they’re simply fundamentally more selfish.
So essentially I was lied to. The bullies do win in the end. The system cannot protect me from them. Also I should have just fought back because looking back now I realize I had nothing to loose.
Good to know.
Wasn't that evident for you already back then? You just needed to watch one of those beta teachers to know that not even the victims of bullies took those "authorities" seriously, so why would that transfer over to the adult life differently?
No, not always. The people who tried me either ended up stripping and or not in good place in life or they k!led themselves. I laughed at everyone of them ESPECIALLY at the latter one. That one was a sweat spot for me. And you know what till this DAY I still laugh when telling the story. People just end up messing with the wrong people and karma does exist….. just saying..
Oh yea.. and YOUR life is not over.. as long as you have breath you have the ability to change your direction in life. You never know you could be president or whatever high status thing you care about. You just have to get focused become aware and change your mindset.. NEVER GIVE UP… ❤
I've always said, to get promoted in the workplace, you are either a bully or an asskisser. Time and time again it's been proven
It does sound like the zero tolerance policy at schools only strips the victims of organizing any defense. If this guy is correct about bullying, the zero tolerance policy has almost certainly exacerbated the bullying problem. It’s a classical example of how good intentions can have perverse consequences when you don’t consider the negative side effects.
Just to add a note, the best way to end bullying is to empower the victims with the tools they need to defend themselves. This would make the victims harder targets and might establish a deterrent. If they won’t refrain from bullying out of decency, maybe they will refrain out of a sense of self preservation.
One thing I can say as a bully victim survived, that non of my kids got bullied at school, and that they have their own circle of friends, and at a much higher position in the social dominance hierarchy. It is very comforting that they didn’t go through my pain.
Congratulations Sylvia - how did you win?
There shouldn’t be a hierarchy in the first place. That’s a form of ostracization
Chris thank you so much for your closing statement, absolutely.
It’s not a ‘cry for help’
They want to ‘climb the social ladder’
It’s Machiavellian
Annoying but vindicating.
I feel EXACTLY the same!! And ALWAYS did!
Love you both thank you!!!!! 💖💖💖
Finally! I was wondering when Chris will finally do a podcast on this subject given his own personal experience in the matter. I for one am so curious on this subject as it has affected my life greatly. From severe childhood traumas to countless bullying in the many schools my single mother kept switching me to because of the bullying, I am now having to resolve a host of issues. I know for a fact I’ll never fully be a psychologically well functioning human being, I have so many fears and neurosis, and it’s all culminating into CPTSD and a very low self esteem. My life’s purpose has been trying to unravel this mess which is so sad because I could have offered more of myself to the betterment of society.
Hi. I had similar issues growing up, and I understand the difficulty. It is true that after bullying it effects you for the rest of your life and makes it harder to do the things you would like.
But, things can be overcome, and you need to try to remain positive. You can still find happiness and peace in doing what you can
Wishing you the best.
I'm so sorry - I know how horrendous CPTSD and disorganized attachment is personally. Where can I find where Chris speaks about his experiences with bullying?
The loss of productivity cannot be quantified. Small minds see a zero sum game and bully to get their way. Talented/gifted minds recognize the synergism created when I am at my best and you are at your best. I think individual bullying is a microcosm for how the powerful bully the working class. Imagine what life could be if we weren’t spending all day chasing the devil’s pennies just to meet basic human needs.
I hope you get all the help and the love you need to heal, psychologically.
In one of the schools where I studied, there was an interesting leadership example. People who received A+ grades were athletic, fit, and leaders. They never allowed anyone to be bullied in the class or at the school. The interesting thing is that whole class medium grades were higher than in the whole school.
Let me guess. You went to a private school.
As someone who was bullied and reacted in ways which made me more of a target, it hit me like a truck when Hamza said that "people respect bullies more than the victims", and what's discussed in this video also perfectly lines up with that. I know someone who was abused as a kid (not bullying but child abuse) and what we realized is that it's simply a case of "might makes right", it's also why I've sympathized with some people who shott up schools.
"people who shott up schools" - you mean school shootings?
@@yurigansmith I tried to use the proper wording but it got the comment deleted.
The kids who shoot up schools are often enough the bullies themselves and not the victims though
Remember one thing before saying that : They are not shooting on the people who wrong them, but random people inside the school. They are not here to get revenge on the bully, witness or teachers involved. They shoot on sight. They are just going for domination without caring about who you are, like their own bully.
I'll admit I was a little prick and did a bit of bullying when I was very young. I'll never forget the day this kid brought his dad in to "caution me" to stop picking on him. That was the last day I ever picked on anyone. Worked like a charm. Nowadays no daycare teacher would allow a parent to do that.
I always thought bullies lacked empathy and were insecure or felt threatened. Interesting that it's actually honesty/humility. As a kid I was very quiet and appeared shy. There were a few incidents where kids (both boys and girls) tried to bully me. But I always stood up for myself, never let them "get away with it." I became very outspoken and articulate in those moments, but I wasn't loud about it, didn't lose control. The bullying never happened again from that particular person.
Im glad to see a taboo topic being rigorously examined, without automatic recourse to talk of personality traits (narcissism, dark triad ect). This is what social science produces at its best, and i thought i knew enough about the topic of bullying having encountered mistreatment during formative years, and unfortunately later too.
I was vey bullied in middle school, mostly by girls. I'm 26 and still have never had a girlfriend and am still a virgin. After going to therapy for a while, what we settled on was that being constantly ridiculed by girls about my low sexual desirability for a couple years, while not having any friends, shoved my self image and social status so far down the hierarchy that I am thoroughly convinced that I'm going to die alone no one will ever be attracted to me for any reason. So I don't even try at all. I still remember crying alone in the corner many times because I hated myself and wanted to die, I remember holding my dad's revolver to my head in 7th grade. Now I don't know what to do. Things don't ever change. I've never felt love or intimacy, I think I might do it before too much longer.
I'm sorry that happened to you. Please do not give in to those dark thoughts as they aren't true, it is just fear talking. Loving yourself must be your upmost priority and good things will come from there. It may take time, but keep working on your confidence and putting yourself out there. There is someone out there for everyone and 26 is still so young. Please don't let the juvenile remarks from judgmental middle school girls affect the man you are today. I know it isn't easy, but you are clearly resilient. There are beautiful things ahead for you if you remain hopeful.
My friend, I am 32, still a virgin and never kissed a girl. I have a small penis, an awkward voice, a weird skin condition, was bullied in school.
Keep working on yourself, it’s though, but you can find happiness as long as you keep trying, 26 is still having the world in front of you.
I'm a 43 year old widowed woman. I also I have a 17 year old daughter. Some people meet their "meant to be" when they're 3 years old. Others don't meet their "meant to be" until long after they've seen their 50th birthday. And regardless of belief, others don't meet their "meant to be" until they reach heaven. Though I have dated and been married, I have YET to meet mine. Please, don't try to get to heaven any faster than your destiny has assigned for you. Your "meant to be" is out there waiting.
Many people would tell you that relationships are NOT all they're "cracked up" to be. With the wrong person it is just as regrettable as people say. As for myself, I was SEVERELY bullied... For nearly all 12 years of school. By both boys and girls. I was told that NO BOY/MAN WORTH HIS SELF RESPECT WILL EVER WANT ME. I even went so far as trying to "self delete" in high school. More than once. Even though my husband was infatuated with another woman (who openly wanted nothing to do with him), he didn't exactly do much to make me believe he genuinely loved me. Sex and intimacy are very different things.
One of the best ways to meet a good woman is to start attending church. A good humble Christian church. Even if you're not exactly a believer. Some churches even have groups and meetings that specifically cater to single adults. Even for non members. Best of luck to you.
If you want to feel better, you need to get confidence. How getting confidence ? Building skills and succeeding to meet your goals. You need to build yourself up, and put yourself in situations where you can succeed your goals. As long you chose the right goals, you can pile up small success, until you can feel secure about yourself. Aim well and low, they go up one step at a time, until you can say to yourself "I did all thoses stuffs. I worked to get there, more than those happy monkey. I can be proud of my work, proud of my skills in X ou Y.".
Try working at charity. You could meet nice people, and feel useful. If people are toxic at the charity you go, then try again in a new one.
Good luck.
I feel ya homie
Really interesting when you talk about feeling that you were held to a higher standard than the people who bullied you. I struggled with that for years until I realised that as a reasonable person you are the path of least resistance, much easier to get you to back down, than confront someone who very unreasonable. Also leaves you with the feeling that you are the problem because most people treat you that way, and how could most people be wrong?
Yeah, you are the path of least resistance. That's why you must be intimidating not only to bullies, but also adults. They will go for the barre minimum of discipline, or even put you down. You must not only be able to inflict cost to bullies, but also adults that don't want to do the necessary work to help you. You must be more intimidating than the bully, and your parents must be more intimidating than bully's parents. If not, then a tap on the wrist and the problem is closed. Since they can't reform the bully to be obedient, they try to reform the victim because the victim's silence is the best way to reduce your disciplinary work.
You nailed it my friend - good kids who comply with the rules are easier to manipulate towards an easy resolution.
BULLYING is a POWER GAME. PERIOD!!!
The really hard part about the conversation about bullying is that there is so much responsibility on the victim and their parents. Might be even more responsibility than there is for the bully and their parents. The brutal truth is that slow social development is priced out of the market. The child that gets social training with other children early is always going to have significant advantages over children who are untrained. Social intelligence is the most important intelligence of them all. If you can’t read politics in social situations ist’s a disability.
This is silly. This is just a another reason why the person is weaker. We already knew they were weaker. That’s why they bullied, but that’s not the issue. It’s kind of like saying, the paraplegic deserves to be beat up by the jocks, because they are a cripple, as a hard fact, it’s not QED.
In fact, from what the speaker is implying about bullying, it is not about finding the absolute, weakest, but the strongest, mid person that the bully can easily take.
It would be good to acknowledge that bullying doesn’t go away in adulthood. People who bullied often become adult bullies. People who were bullied can also become adult bullies as a coping mechanism.
I’ve often experienced it being seen as both the victim and bully just not getting along in the workplace. And the victim is very often blamed.
The bully will usually be stigmatized as an adult if it happens around others VS in highschool the bully would actually want to humiliate you in front of others.
A simple "Are you ok?" Or "What is your deal, weirdo?" Is usually enough to stop an adult bully in their tracks and embarrass them....Or if you're brave enough, bait them into getting physical and let them send themselves to jail on an assault charge. 😂
My son in year7 going from a private catholic school to a public secondary school got verbally bullied because he had red hair he couldn't stand up for himself because this never happened in primary school, when I complained to the well-being officer she told him to play in the other playground away from where the boys that played soccer were,my son loved soccer and was good at it, this bully found my son on the other playground and punched my son in the stomach. My husband went to the local police station to charge the bully, and when the police got involved the school finally stepped in and suspended the bully, my son never got bullied again, he also has high-functioning autism so he needed adults to step in. My son is now over 6ft and a bodybuilder he never gets bullied now
It just goes to show who the school cared about the most. They knew that boy was picking in him and didn't bother to do anything about it. They cared more about the bully than your son which in my opinion is disgusting.
It's interesting how bullies can mobilize others to participate in or turn a blind eye to acts of bullying. In the modern workplace you would think it would be an easy thing to report them.
No, because those evolutionary instincts override modern workplaces.
You probably can't because he's good friends with an HR member of if it's a woman, she's probably "really close" with your boss or an HR member.
The damages and trauma from bullying can be inherited to the next generation. Bullying occurs everywhere and it's important we instruct our younger generation to avoid being victim to this disastrous cycle!
Very interesting point! I read that nations in war have their genes changed and inherited to next generation(s). Many people live in war like conditions in domestic violence, severe violence etc. I also read that these are often inter-generational. It could also be non-DNA related as people with severe traumas are not able to take care of themseleves, their children etc.
This is very unlikely. There are a certain prople who get bullied and this trait is heriatble. You are getting it wrong. It is not the bullying that causes this. It is a negative "nature of nurture" effect.
@@stigcc I agree completely.
Link one paper that demonstrates this?
I am 38 and still deal w trauma from bullying. I was adopted and the only “brown” kid in my family. My father decided to take a job in Georgia and move us there from California, I was immediately bullied and extremely confused because I didn’t know I was Hispanic, my entire family unknowingly gas lit me as well by telling me I am “American” just like everyone else, and telling me how lucky I was to be adopted and in a middle class family, I tried killing myself more then 4 times, and it’s messed up my life more than anything, I have had problems in jobs because bosses can even bully people as well …. It’s really sad that people don’t really know how to deal w bullying still, I would say one thing that would be a huge solution was practice martial arts, workout and find your tribe of people, those few things are finally helping me. Bullying can ruin your life if you don’t know how to deal w it.
Great episode and guest. I never would have guessed that Chris would have been bullied as he seems so polished and smooth today. I was bullied in elementary and middle school for similar reasons. I had above-average intelligence, a small friend group, was small and kind of chubby, I was nervous around girls, and just generally very rule-following. I had a strong sense of right and wrong and so I had no willingness to use cruel methods to elevate myself socially and didn't understand people who did. My favorite movie then and now was Robocop, and I've always strongly identified with the main character Murphy because he was motivated by a sense of morality, and the group of criminals that ended up killing him were very much like bullies. They didn't want to just kill him quickly. They wanted to torment him and got off on his powerlessness and misery. It was also a group endeavor, so there was an audience for the verbal snipes and wisecracks. Being picked on in middle school felt just like that. Being on the ground as a group of hyenas circle you and torment you for fun as they slowly kill you.
One day in middle school I'd had enough. One of the scrawnier kids had seen me getting bullied by bigger and more socially manipulative kids and had decided to make me his target as well. He was flicking my ear from behind in music class and then playing dumb when I turned around to tell him to stop. This was in front of other kids. Right then I confronted him and told him we could settle this at recess in the bathroom. Long story short he did meet me there (he kinda couldn't back down since I had challenged him in front of other people, girls included), and I beat his ass. He got some licks in but I ultimately made him give up with a wrestling style front headlock after front-kicking him into the bathroom door.
Word of this got around the next day and to my surprise, some of the girls in school were coming up to me and telling me they had heard about how I beat this kid up and were basically getting lovey dovey and flirting with me because I had revealed myself to be a good fighter.
And I remember being absolutely sickened by this. These very same girls would laugh along when I was getting picked on and would hook up with the bullies and those who stood by and tolerated it even though they could have stopped it (who are just as culpable in my opinion), and NOW they wanted to be nice and flirty with me. I basically politely told them all to fuck off. You can't sit there and laugh at my torment for years and then warm up to me all of a sudden when I had enough. That said, all bullying of me DID stop from that point forward, for the remainder of my time at that school, which was about a year.
Bullies are not much more than little sociopaths who crumble completely when stood up to, and I think most bullies' power lies not in the fact that they ARE more powerful but on the belief that the victim will never stand up for himself and counter-challenge. This is really hard to do if you are physically outsized or the bully has friends to help him and gang up on you, but I think being willing to fight back is essential to getting the behavior to stop. I think you have to demonstrate an almost samurai spirit that you're willing to risk your own wellbeing if it means you can also take the bully down with you to get them to stop.
Anyway, I applaud the research being done on this topic. Bullying has always been incredibly destructive and leads to suicides and chronic lifelong self-image issues and needs to seriously be addressed instead of dismissed as playful razzing.
The whole " I expect more of you" higher standard thing.. I can relate to. I grew up poor as hell, single parent, 4 siblings... Because I seemed more intelligent than some I was always held to a higher standard than wealthy kids of lower intelligence.. Expecting kids to bare that burden is unreasonable.
I was possibly the most popular guy in my school. Star of the sports team, a straight 'A' student, popular with girls and kind to everyone, but I was bullied heavily from the age of 14 to 17 by kids who I assume were envious of my status. It doesn't matter who you are, we can all become victims of bullies. In my case, I was bullied by a large group of kids from the wrong side of town. Individually I probably could have fought any one of them and won, but they did it collectively, and I feared that if I responded to one of them, that the rest of them would round on me. So I never resisted, and I suffered horrendous psychological abuse for years because they quickly learned I wouldn't strike back. I can't imagine what it would have been like to be a weak kid with no friends suffering physical abuse as well, because what I went though as the popular kid who could fight back was still horrendous. Being afraid of the home time bell at the end of the day for fear of running into my bullies at the school gate made every day hell. If I'd had more support or knowledge back then on how to deal with it, maybe things would have been different. This episode really helped me to understand the reasons why I went through what I did, and I hope it helps to prevent it from happening to anyone else.
Sorry to hear your story. If I were you, I would have asked a close friend or sibling of mine to follow me and video tape the whole thing and use that as evidence to fight back.
@@YummyFoodOnlyPlz Wouldn't probably help. I had few friends and they decided I was not worth the troubles. Funny, one of my teachers decided to not get involved as well, when he caugth three bigger guys dragging me somewhere to beat me up. Said something along the lines of "Ummm... Don't cause any troubles!" and drove away.
Pretty much they all taught me that whatever happens, I am on my own.
@@alexmash1353 looks like we found why you were picked on, seemingly popular but actually often alone without much support network. If i have to fight alone, i would have caused them to fracture internally -- a group of bully type personalities never truly bond because they are all selfish individuals.
@@YummyFoodOnlyPlz would have had to use a Hi-8 camcorder back in those days! 😂
Sorry that you were bullied. Your story smells a bit like wanting to be a victim.
BTW, WTF does the “wrong side of town” mean? Is this a coded term for some other race?
Thank you so much for this episode! ❤ I didn't even know that I needed this information. For some reason I tend to forget or minimise that I got bullied a lot when I was a child both inside and outside home. It probably is another major factor as of why I tend to be a loner as an adult. Even though I usually come across as friendly and sociable, I hardly ever relax around others.
I was bullied just for being seen as socially awkward and being so different from the other girls
I have gone after bullies at school as it made me very angry.
I have been subjected to attempts but had the advantage of my twin brother, because we faught each other, and so we learned from each other not to be intimidated.
We were lucky to have each other.
We were the eldest of a big family as well.
The good shepherd feeling ?????
Not being intimidated was powerful, but more was needed and I was fortunate.
Just my comments with hindsight and your observations.
Only way to stop a bully 🤛🤜🤛🤜🤛🤜🤕😂
It exists because it works most of the time. Seldom do i see people push back at bullies.
At first glance, I'm surprised that Chris was badly bullied at school. But not so much when I learn of Chris's high honesty rating which means he can't bully back. His is much like my story. This is why I hate pop culture anti-bullying narratives - bully the bully. [ E.g. as presented in mass media ]. Pop culture is so dishonest. We feel good watching it because the bullies get their comeuppance. Yet how bullies get it is a lie we tell ourselves. Hate being lied to.
This episode was more helpful than 20 years of self reflection and therapy.
Thank you.
Status is the key. So thats why I could never confront a bully without having to also deal with everyone else! 😳
Kids should be allowed to fight back against their bullies, when I beat the shit out of to kids that were giving me shit, NO ONE messed with me again. That's when I realized violence doesn't solve anything is bullshit.
DON'T YOU GET THE REAL SITUATION?!!
ALLOWED?!!! SOCIETY PUNISHES VICTIMS FOR STANDING UP FOR THEMSELVES!!!
USE YOUR BRAIN!!!
Big 5 agreeableness maps more than just nice. It maps more precisely to willingness to engage in conflict. Hence why highly agreeable people tend to be victims of abuse at higher rates, because it takes a lot more before they're willing to stick up for themselves.
I lost all my friends from Kindergarten onwards to a bully. I fought back once I got to high school. Best move I ever made but I NEVER recovered any of those friends and part of me didn't mind that.
School was the worst part of my childhood. I wish I could go back in time and teach my childhood self about paint thinner and lighters. Fill up a Gatorade bottle full of paint thinner, dump it on a bully, light him up and have a great laugh as he now has permanent burn scars 😂
It is for many people, you're not alone.
Every school teacher in the world should watch this.
I loved this video, the evolutionary angle really hit home and gave a solid answer as to why bullying exists. BTW, I took the HEXACO test and it pretty much demonstrated why I was bullied growing up according to Dr Volk's research.
I was severely bullied as a kid, and somehow found that that if I used some form of self defence (fight back) to be very effective I’d I didn’t show any emotion, or anger. I was also very effective I’d I acted very confident.
brilliant episode! would have loved to hear Tony's take on the similarities between sexual harassment and bullying. in my lived experience there are so many parallels - the bullies (sexual bullies in this case) picking a victim in situations of power imbalance (physical or status power) and being very good at calculating the cost-benefit of their harassment.
this is where solidarity with the victim comes in - believing victims instead of reprimanding them for 'making a fuss' (unlike your drama teacher), and even public shaming makes the cost of bullying higher.
I understand Tony's point about standing up for bullies in private is 'safer' for the victim - however the bully will simply continue on to their next victim - just like sexual predators are almost always repeat offenders. public shaming, while costly for the victim, can fundamentally change the cost/benefit calculation to actually be preventative. would love to hear Tony's (and your) thoughts on this.
Thanks again for your awesome podcast, absolutely love it!
This was quite an interesting podcast that should help lots of people with information and tools. I can say that a big portion of bullying in life stops after grade school and the people who continue that behavior end up alone with no friends. Making people feel good is a lot more powerful for everyone else and yourself.
This podcast was absolutely brilliant. Thank you for examining this topic!
Thank you for shining a light on this! ❤
I enjoyed this interview. Tony seems to have an excellent grasp of the material and has parsed it with balance and consideration.
This is one of the most interesting things I’ve ever seen/listened to. I’m 55, had shit things happen to me and had good things happen to me. You know, been around a bit. This Really opened my eyes. Keep up the good work Chris.
This was such a good episode and I appreciate you talking about your own painful experiences with bullying. It's inspiring to see someone overcome it and be successful as you have been. Thank you.
I am adult woman and I believe in what I experience in life .
My own experiences with
so- called social media was not good but I am adult and strong personality woman so if I do like something I just avoid in my life and that is what I did with facebook , instagram , tweeter .
Now ... imagine young kids left alone with that stupidity .
Personally I do not recomend use of so called "social media " .
What I recomend is real life , playing autside and spending your free time with your friends , reading some good book ...etc
To me social mendia is anty social in some cases and I would not waste my time on it .
I LOVE your podcasts/interviews. In this one I really particularly liked the section about interventions. As a middle school teacher I really appreciate that insight.
I was small for my age (until puberty) with light blond hair and grey blue eyes. Precociously smart and talkative. Little Aspie walking encyclopedia.
A prime target for bullies. And they did go after me.
But that’s where my superpower comes in. Seeing both sides and mediating. I never got beat up once. I was somehow impervious to the bullying.
It almost seems unbelievable but the way I remember it, in most cases I talked the bully down. On the few occasions where it did escalate to physical confrontation, it usually ended quickly. Sure, I got hit a few times but they were always surprised how quick I was, and stronger than I looked. Still am. That’s a common Aspie/Neanderthal trait.
Oops, I opened another can of worms…
I can just see how Chris’ 💔 when he thinks of how he will handle his own children’s potential bullying struggles. I am exactly the same way. It’s one of the reasons I had chosen not to. I just don’t. Have that kind of patience, I would probably rip those bulky kids to shreds. Mama instincts are scary when that mama is dysregulated.
I could see the change in his face when he started thinking about that.
Fantastic. Thank you both so much!
Chris you fucking legend you. I teared up multiple times in this one. I'm on the edge of my seat waiting for your next convo with this guy.
I was a larger child good at sports and reasonably popular, but i often bullied the bully's i always picked out people making peoples life hard and went after them.... Not sure if the 2 wrongs make a right but i had a high empathy level always but also a high aggression level. Primary school i was picked on a bit but then i grew and my adhd become a super power for sport... I become capabile of inflicting harm mental and psy...mental because confidence was through the roof attention from girls and respect from guys... Teachers were often challenging me and intimated....i always felt bad for children and teens who had parents who dont care about their kids and they were such targets because no one would stand up for them no even there own parents
".i always felt bad for children and teens who had parents who dont care about their kids and they were such targets because no one would stand up for them no even there own parents." That was my problem. I got good grades, played football for the school team and did theatre - I was performing in front of the whole school so I was popular. Jelious boys tried to bully me but when I fought back my parents punished me. I joined a boxing gym and started boxing before my mum found out and removed me. Rest of family were suprised and called my parents out and their response was "if he does boxing and beats the bullies how are we gonna beat him up ourselves?" My dad felt threatened by his son taking up boxing and defending himself because he could no longer use physical threats of violance to force me to do things I didn't want do that only he cared about. His logic was If he stands up to the bullies soon he will stand up to me - he was right lol.
Hey Chris, love your pod, very informative! Your pod has taught me that your mind is your advantage, so I thank you for that.
A quote that can translate to how powerful a mind can be that Mr Sam Harris has said “ Thoughts are like thieves entering an empty house” powerful quote.
“Bully” produced in 2011 highlights much of watch was mentioned here.
Very hard viewing but essential for parents particularly highlighting how inept the school system is for dealing with it.
- this interview also reminded me of Brodie Lee Panlock who worked as a waitress in Melbourne, Australia at “cafe Vamp”. She was bullied to the extent she self deleted.
The Victorian government went on to introduce”Brodie’s law”.
I probably "established" my dominance at the age of 13 when I willingly went to a dangerous rumble with a small group of female metalhead friends (we were all friends). Kids in school thought we were 'tough' and were probably afraid to mess with us. Lol That helped cement my 'tough girl' reputation.
Also, I was extremely physically strong at the age of 12, so the girls, of course, didn't mess with me. I was competitive POWER gymnast at that time - that's why. It wouldn't have made sense to pick on or compete with girls stronger than you. Also, I genuinely liked people at that time! I could get along with most adults, teachers, kids, etc..
The cheerleaders weren't the prettiest girls in my high school. The metalhead girls were prettier and "sexier." They were also tougher - but kinder to others, in general.
This brought back some feel- good memories!!
Edit: I forgot to mention WHY I was much more powerful than the other girls at age 12!!
@PatyCravey I sounded too sweet, didn't I? I wasn't back then. It's a really good thing that MOST of us grew up EMOTIONALLY before college!
Chris is right that some kids carry that dominant attitude into adulthood - never growing out of that bullying mindset/behavior. It's strange.
@PatyCravey One of the most overpopulated states/metropolitan areas in the US. It was a jungle back then.
@PatyCravey I'm not looking to meet anyone. I just love listening to interesting podcasts!
@@brianmeen2158 No! Lol. I was trying to say that females will be intimidated by physically powerful ones... the few who could demonstrate physical power, athleticism and toughness in JR high. By toughness, I meant not being afraid of confrontation, speaking up for yourself and your friends... and going to rumbles where things were unpredictable.
I forget the actual term we used for them, but only the "toughest" kids from some school districts would organize street fights on occasion. They would pick a school playground and meet up on the weekend.
I was lucky. Someone tipped off the cops and the large gathering was broken up - in a very timely manner. I never went to another neighborhood brawl again. Most of them had some type of weapon. **** that. The fact that I even showed up proved I wasn't afraid, and I was given a 'tough girl' stamp of approval by even the 17 yo tough girls.
Sending this video discussion to our school’s leadership team… ALL EDUCATORS…. Need to watch this and think about how to maximize a culture of kindness as well as educate parents.
One positive aspect of bullying is the evolutionary pressure it puts on its victim. It gives you that rage to fight back.
Unfortunately nowadays, everything is becoming "sterile", without even a swear word.
True but in modern society the victim is punished for fighting back.
This makes sense even in the context of relationships: I read and made videos covering quotes by Dr. Robert Briffault, and he covers tribes that were matriarchal. Essentially, it seems that whoever has power in a relationship has a high propensity to become corrupted by it-resulting in acts such as bullying.
For those who want another idea of what Bullying comes from
I recommend the game Lost Judgement, while the beginning of the game deals with a school bullying case the story ends up as a thrilling ride diving into a past Bullying into a suicide 10 years prior to the story starting,
but I specifically want to call attention to a character describing where bullying probably comes from in evolutionary terms where it comes from group/social isolation, bullying might come from the idea of isolating people that didn't function as intended to the group at large for survival reasons rather than something for one person to gain, I think over time bullying definitely adopted the 7 sins where the people that bully either suffer from agression, envy, they wanna look good for a love interest, its the easiest thing to do, they want something from the person and even just they take a sick pleasure out of dominating another person
But in the past it made sense to isolate and reject those that didn't help the group effort, we see it in monkeys and even big cats, where they bully not weaker but those who don't pull their weight and are a detriment to the group survival
its probably where bullying started in school, kids that didn't act like what was preserved as normal suffered social isolation, but over time kids learned that abusing ones power over another granted them new benefits that even started to warp social perception of how bullying functions to being hierarchy based
I like the game "bully" its basically GTA but set in a high school it's very fun
Seen similar dynamics in the work place. Guy doesn't vibe or do well in the job or fails the initial hazing so the majority in the group start ostracizing him til he leaves or gets better.
I worked part time in the NHS. I was bullied at work by my manager & her gopher, a senior nurse. After several incidents over months I went above my manager to tell their manager & also went to the works psychiatrist & also gave a blow by blow account to the Union member, who was working in the hospital. I wrote down every incident & I double checked my work. Nothing helped & it escalated. Other workers knew it was happening but didn’t back me, for their own reasons. Shame on them. My manager had tried to move me to another hospital 3 days a week, telling me that was in my contract. It wasn’t. When I asked her to show me she told me to come back in the afternoon. When I returned she had fabricated a new contract to give to me. I asked where my signature was & she got angry & asked if I thought she was lying. I replied “If the cap fits…!” In fact I was never actually given a contract for that department as I had moved from another which was closed down. I was simply given a list of tasks. Shortly after, I was made redundant on a trumped up reason, that non medical staff were no longer to be working in Theatres. I made a complaint about the bullying to higher management, they covered it up & said they investigated & could not find any evidence that bullying happened, despite all the tangible evidence I gave them. It wasn’t until I stopped working there, did I realise the stress I was under. I was lucky that my husband supported me financially & I retired early. I found out later that my Manager was moved to another hospital & her gopher finished work one day, went home & died. Karma? I would have loved to know how the others involved fared. The NHS has a bullying culture & a hierarchal system that makes it very easy for bully’s to thrive.
1:20:00 I don't think that's how broken bones work though. I've broken my arms 3 times, and they came back with stronger bones in all instances, and that was further confirmed as the norm by my doctors. Ligaments, on the other hand, are a whole other ordeal, I think.
I find this video very informative and interesting for someone whom was bullied relentlessly like myself. I know that I suffered poor self esteem due to bullying
It is your duty to RUIN communities that abide bullies.
Be a plague upon them. Never, ever go away.
Most importantly, remind them early and often why it started happening.
POWER CORRUPTS CHARACTER AND ABSOLUTE POWER CORRUPTS ABSOLUTELY!
I see unlike other interviews that Chris Williamson has done, he is quite unfamiliar with knowledge of bullying. With that said, I'm so glad this gentleman did research on the subject. his data confirms my personal observation and I even learned a few things as well, such as the psychology and psychopathy of an evil bully!
BTW, many, many other animals bully each other
57:00 interesting that he mentioned Genghis Khan earlier as a successful bully, and then that bullying in the ancient past had much higher stakes (because resources were more scarce) - Genghis Khan actually murdered his half-brother when they were children in a struggle for dominance within his family (who had been exiled from the tribe).
You know what, making friends can be a hard strategy for young children who are low in the dominance hierarchy. So if you're a parent you can foster a good sibling relationship, because siblings are more your peers than your parents but will be more likely to help you in a "good friend" way than your average friendship nowadays.
Underneath it all, aren't bullies just sad, angry losers? I never had a bullying issue except for my 2nd oldest sister. At about 12 yo, I fought back for thec1st time. She apologized & said she was jealous of me. There are 5 of us kids. Don't tolerate the bully.
You didn't watch the video, you clown.
I (6’7” 350lbs)was bullied verbally everyday of high school mostly cause I hated being there and I was an insecure critical douche. Still a critical douche but minus the insecurity, but I had a very long fuse so the bullies knew they could get away with a lot up until someone hit my limit and would get smashed. Upon reflection and after learning a lot about human behaviors and human psychology I really can’t explain it as anymore then my bullies saw someone much larger and much stronger who they wanted to use as a stepping stone to make them bigger and stronger and I do believe they feared me to an extent but Once I left high school I never really experienced anything I’d consider legitimate bullying as in the real world and outside of school I was seen as a potential threat for my size and then people got to know me and realized I was pretty agreeable and easy to deal with which made them realize I’m more of a teddy bear that turns into a grizzly not a grizzly that can turn into a teddy bear.
I fought the school bully at high school after he kicked the ball at me because I conceded a goal whilst playing for my school football team, I only went in goal because our normal goalkeeper got injured!
What I found missing in his early definition of bullying, was two things.
First, the bully needs an audience. Their acts in many ways are a performance for status. Without an audience, most acts of bullying would not occur. In fact I would hazard to guess that anyone who performs similar acts sans audience, may be a psychopath.
Second, I believe the impetus to bully stems from a profound insecurity, and bullying is a tool to conceal this vulnerability which may be attacked if ever exposed.
This is why the most powerful reaction to a bully is to ignore them or completely agree with their ridiculous assertions. This breaks the pattern cycle of a call and response type script that the are expecting to occur. In any bully scenario, watch the reaction of the audience, or bully sycophants.
Think about the counterfactual. Why would anyone who is secure in themselves ever resort to bullying to get what they want.
Many bullies will grow out of it, as they mature and no longer need to tease or bully to be revered.
The more it becomes commonly known that bullying is a sign of insecurity, the less people will do it, because it will be like declaring, “Hey, I really don’t like myself.” And the ability to accumulate sycophants will dwindle.
If we really and totally reframe the issue, bullies could be seen as actually needing more help than their victims.
Perhaps I’m am now just bullying the bullies.
Something needs to shift given the tremendous violent fallout that seems inevitable from the the victims pushed too far, whether is suicide or retaliation gun violence.
Chris is getting cooler by the day not going to lie
So after listening to this for 12 minutes I’m starting to think I’m extremely low in honesty & humility. When he said “it’s nothing personal, it’s a dog eat dog world and if you weren’t weak this wouldn’t be happening to you” I had to pause the video cuz that’s exactly how I viewed the world growing up…. I genuinely thought that everyone viewed things that way.
Not necessarily. If you grow up spending a lot of time learning about wilderness survival or natural selection, it is pretty natural to think it is a dog eat dog kind of world just like how nature in the wild works. It may have nothing to do with your personality/psychology.
@@YummyFoodOnlyPlz But the OP didn't say that they'd spent a lot of time in the wilderness. I know it's an example, but chances are where he grew up and the (unconscious) beliefs of their family ensured that he'd believe in a did eat dog world.
@@toomuchinformation and a value system about a dog eat dog world just come out from nowhere and the family feel strongly enough to teach it?
Speaking of bullying, When I lived in Australia I lived in an area that had a lot of mining offices. There were lots of Chileans, Texans, and Albertans. Aussies would always whisper to me, "When I meet someone from Texas it's kind of obvious but how do I tell the difference between your accent and a Canadian accent?" I would say, "I can't always immediately tell the difference but listen for sorey, get oat, and sometimes particularily."
Great episode. I appreciate not just the research but also the advice/solutions.
I was surprised that apparently these bullies have no empathy defects, they probably have cognitive empathy only.
The bullies are likely to be narsissistic and or psychopathic, end of story.
Additionally, I guarantee bullies are extroverted.
Introverts unite, alone, in their rooms.
The empathy thing is so over blown. How would you be able to get pleasure out of making someone miserable if you can't tell your making them miserable?
@PhosphorusRatPhace empathy certainly has its downsides. But if no-one had empathy we would destroy ourselves in seconds. Life is a delicate balance certainly.
@Brian Meen it's not pc or whatever to say but extroverts are assholes a lot of the time. Schizophrenic extroverts are cool though.
I'm wary of any extrovert, and I certainly wouldn't date one.
Excellent content.
As a teacher the harshest one I see on the regular is shunning - its not violence or even name calling - they just refuse to work with or sometimes even sit next to the victim.
Its really hard to stomp out because if you try to force people to work with them it makes it worse.
Chris, Asians absolutely do NOT suck at drinking 🤣🤣 Look at all the sake, soju, and all kinds of Chinese liquor... There are brutal drinkers here! You're probably thinking about "Asian flush" which doesn't happen to everyone. Love your podcasts and thank you for sharing your personal story in this one :)
😂😂 100% agree, he hasn't met the right ones
Chris seems like going though some stuff. He's less open and invested in people, more in his head, figuring or professing stuff. Wonder how he's doing or has he come upon/defined some big questions, tasks for himself that takes his energy into that shape. Godspeed, my man, in any case. As always, great stuff!
1:20:10 funny it's an opposite - broken and properly healed bone is much stronger and even a bit thicker. Overall - a very interesting conversation!
I’m wondering what relationship stalking has with bullying and what reactions work best in deterring stalkers?
I would bet that the lack of parents leading to bullying may not just be about examples and whatnot. It could be instinctual. Even in the ancestral environment, if you lose your parents you're going to face a hard scrabble for resources (less protection/status from parents).
Good interview questions. Great choice of guest. Just let him finish answering the questions
1:04:30 City environments also help this dymanic a lot, since, if the bully suffers from disapproval, he can just reset and either move town or neighborhoods.
My parents, in particular my mom made the huge mistake of not enrolling me in anything that would help me boost my self esteem in spite of all my pleadings.
There is only one way to deal with bullying, you deal with the bully. First offense: have the sit-down and explain to them that what they are doing is wrong and why it will not be tolerated. Second offense: suspension, kick them off the team etc or some kind of real consequences. Third offense: permanent expulsion. If that does not work take them out back for some old-skool re-education. Bullying is a plague that damages their victims for life and as a society will still do not take it seriously.
1:14:23 give your enemy a golden bridge to retreat across...
Thanks
Trauma is the real family heirloom
My experiences of being bullied had LESS to do with knocking me off the social ladder in that great human-nature grab for resources. It was done out of PURE ENTERTAINMENT. The bullies I dealt with neither needed nor wanted any reason to abuse me. I was no worse off than them. So, they weren't "punching down." Perhaps their only real reason was to knock me out of the dating competition. Except I would NOT have dated any boy in my school. None of them were worth the wast of air and space, let alone waste my time and energy. Those *bleeps could boink all the men who would sniff after them.
None of that matters. They don't know, neither do they care. They just want to head off any competition at the pass.
This guy is focused on the effects of being a victim of bullying, I’m not hearing anything about the effects of overcoming bullies** - far more powerful experience
Teach your kid how to box. Be a good parent. Get a heavy bag, speed bag, and a study on the fundamentals. I guarantee the bullying will stop that same year.
The thing with poor neighbourhoods people confuse people have something with being rich. Been able to pay the bills and mortgage loans does not make you rich.
My dad sign to be up for karate in the late 80s and I learned how to do a roundhouse kick and I practiced at home with a kick bag that we had and the one time I was bullied I did a roundhouse kick to the kid in the face and it knocked his two front teeth out and I was never bullied again
What a fantasy story you got. You obviously didn't watch the video. He said that bullies usually bully one victim by using his whole group.
Use common sense next time.
Also, Karate is for weaklings.
What a fantasy story you got. You obviously didn't watch the video. He said that bullies usually bully one victim by using his whole group.
Try fighting multiple people. You'll never succeed no matter how skilled you are at any martial arts.
Use common sense next time.
Also, Karate is for weaklings.
I really liked how the interview really started on an objective even cold note, which made me resent Tony a little bit inintially, like he is so distant and uninvovled emitionally into something that destroyes people's lives, but in the end it really heated up. "F u" started flying and I kind of relaxed😆: like ok, this guy does not treat victims and abusers like lab rats, he does have a stake in it and really is on the side of good. I mean, i guess it must be a part of the abstract of the articles he publishes: we study this behaviour, so we can curb it to the best of our abilities. Cudos to him.