Hey all! Quinns here. I'd like to reply to the folks who pointed out that you can, in fact, skip Slumbers, and that there are rules for it in the manual. I also saw some people asking if I had unlocked the "Deliverance" mechanic that lets you permanently remove Slumbers from the game. Mea culpa: I did miss the rule about skipping encounters! I'm sure it was just one of several rules that I missed. However, on investigating my copy of the game I found that (a) only *some* Slumber encounters feature an option to skip them, and (b) the penalty you get for skipping combat encounters is *hellacious*. In the case of the first monster in the game, your deck permanently gains TWO flaw cards each time you skip it. So that's no good at all and it certainly doesn't change my review. As for Deliverance, I did indeed unlock this feature of the game. However, Deliverance is not the panacea that I, too, hoped it would be when I unlocked it. Deliverance gives you the option of fighting a lengthened, more painful battle with a creature to try and remove it from the game forever. However, this involves trying to pick the right Deliverance card from 5 options, and if you're wrong you might just make the battle harder, or, in one encounter, you permanently replace the monster encounter with an /even more powerful monster/. This happened to me. It was one of the moments that made me happy to write a review that was so negative.
@ Max . I think his point was, he wasn’t having fun, the experience was cumbersome, and the outcome just made it more cumbersome. Mentioning that as a game reviewer is part of his role. I can see how he wrote it, it looks like he’s maliciously being negative for the sake of being negative. I know when I buy a big box game $100-plus, I look for positives to help me justify my purchase, while actively overlooking negatives. And I find myself defending the game in spite of my dissatisfaction. In the end, when my game group comes over, no matter how much conniving I do to get Nemesis to the table, we end up playing Sushi Go or Takenoko. Feedback from friends that have no financial stake in a game, helps me know the actual value of the game.
@@maxmustermann9036 Disco elysium is a unique game. Ive played games for over 30 years, and nothing like this one. Note that it might look like a regular RPG (like Baldurs Gate, Divinity OS etc) its more of a point and click adventure game with glourious dialogue and supreme diversity in how you play it. Its a game that embraces failing. You can, if you want, play as a permanently alcoholic as depressed looser... And be rewarded in game for acting "in character". Or maybe you are a racist asshole? The game wont penalize you for it. It will reward you for acting like a racist,of thats the choices youve made. Its also both very funny and very tragic. My only gripe is the ending. It goes from solid 5 out of 5,to having an ending thats more 4 out of 5. Had it stuck the landing it would have been The game of the decade for me
On the topic of missed rules (because I also ran into "what the heck do I do to add a turn?") To Awaken Realms' credit, the index specifically has "Turn Add Turn" referencing pages 10,15. 10 explains where the card comes from and goes. 15 tells you you can spend hours to take extra turns!
Agreed. I just had a similar conversation with some of my friends the other day. I asked them, is a game being easy not fun? And the reasoning was, with so many cooperative games on the market, so many of them seem overly difficult. I realize this increases replayability, but that's only to a point. Losing is not fun. In the right circumstances, you can have fun and lose, but losing hours of progress is never, and will never be fun.
It's not about beign "FUN" when you lose, it's about beign INTERESTING. I get why some games are "you lose, start from zero"... but if you are in the middle of a story driven game... that's not interesting... that's not even thematicaly apropiate. It would be more interesting if it gave you a minor setback and maybe changed something along the path. Heck, there are games that use "failing" as the main progression system for the game. So when you lose, you get better. Then you go "I'll get it THIS time!"
@@GambitsEnd I wasn't saying that a game has to be easy to be fun but rather, if a game is easy, does that make it not fun? Take a video game for example of Diablo 3. For the better part of the game, you're thrown dozens of enemies that pose little danger to you, but the fun lies in using all the cool abilities and tools you acquire in laying waste to them. Bosses offer a more strategic approach sometimes, but other times they just require the right amount of endurance and health management. This is the kind of gameplay I'd like to see in some board games.
This game isn't that fun even when you're winning. For now, it's so "acceptable" for me, that in the days I can't get more than 3 players it's still better than another campaign game that I have around, less rules overhead, quite nice moment to moment gameplay, but if Quinns is right in how this is going to turn out... I don't know. The game was interesting in how it changed from dream to dream so far, so there's that. Hopefully Vasel and some reviews I've read online are right here. Hell, I love Arcadia Quest, and Quinns hates it, so...
"Or if you were looking for a surreal, one player adventure... it's 2020." I really hoped he would just stop talking at that point because it was a perfect line.
Yes, but where's the reference pear? I'm lost without it. Yes there are bananas, but how am I supposed to know if those bananas are the same size as the bananas I have in my home?
"My campaign started to feature more fudging than the books of a crooked accountant working at a failing fudge factory on double fudge Friday." Seriously the best quote ever!
Yeah for a board game reviewer, that might be the harshest criticism I've heard levelled at a board game yet. Damn. But to be fair I saw Etherfields as an early prototype a long time ago and while pretty, we recognized it was flimsy as fuck as far as the gameplay goes even back then.
I have never heard so much negativity early on in a SU&SD review. I figured this would be a unique video. Yes, yes it was. Thanks for being so open and honest about your thoughts on this game.
I don't know, some designers are pretty cool about that, "make it your own" and that kind of stuff... as a person that plays TTRPG a lot... yeaaaah sometimes the "rules as written" are garbage.
@@TeChNoWC7 what do you mean? "if the rules lead to uninteresting gameplay, it has a lot to with the designers" Random Encounters are one of those design choices that can be a hit or miss depending on how well implemented it is. If it only leads to combat... it's meant to attack your resources (specially if they don't drop anything when you killed them, or they give no xp). But if lead to different things, combat/parley/trade/information... then you ARE looking toward a better system... and you don't need to change a lot of rules!
For the big box games I understand that cause most of them are just bland rules and lots of miniatures and the illusion of content. But the thing is some Kickstarter games are incredible but you wont know unless you back it and play it. If you don't back it you will have to pay way more for it or not get it at all.
@@marrioman13 yeah I definitely mean your archetypal big box high price tag lotsominis games, not just any game that's happened to be launched on kickstarter. Kind of an "all kickstarter games were funded by kickstarter, but not all games funded by kickstarter are kickstarter games" thing
Great review! My wife and I are several hours into Etherfields and I have noticed the same pros and cons. The dreams are interesting and diversely themed but the first time I realized that the Dreamworld map and slumbers were essentially rinse and repeat I produced an audible groan.
"Quickly run out of splace" - What's in your coffee Quinns? Cause it smells a lot like Blaseball... Excellent work, thank you for the review! Your discussion of how you'd started cheating to avoid losing progress and suffering through long, extended negative play experiences really hit home. I've been there for sure.
I am so glad this review came out after i backed this kickstarter to the max. I have received the game and LOVE it. I want to play every day and the slumbers are a reflection on how well you are playing. If you play well, slumbers that are neutral or positive are added. Sometimes you might get punished for playing badly. The slumbers are those recurring dreams we sometimes have. And there is story in them. I think if you play like SU&SD is doing, you will never find joy in any game. I am so glad wave 2 is coming with 3 expansions.
This might be THE most savage review Ive ever seen out of SU&SD, and Ive been watching since they were on Penny Arcade. Also holy shit Quinns' tongue is REALLY LONG?!?
I feel like he's in a bad mood because of things not having to do with Etherfields. That whole review lacked the substance I've come to enjoy from his reviews and was unnecessarily negative about things he usually doesn't complain about.
First time viewer here! I usually skip reviews to where I need them to be, aka spam that 15 sec podcast button, but this was funny, brutally honest and succinct! You sir, have earned a subscriber!
When people want to make a video game, but they have too many artist friends and not enough programmer friends, they usually take one of two paths: 1. watch some Unity tutorials and put up some walking simulators on Patreon 2. commission an artbook and repurpose it as a "board game" for Kickstarter
We're one year later, and I've played tens of hours of Etherfields, and I feel I have to share this feeling I got from my last game: This is simply the best, most rewarding game I've ever played. Every dream keeps surprising us. Every game is different and complex, and after completing a dream I always feel high for at least a day. There have been some different opinions on the slumbers, but I find them very much fun. You may be surprised but there are quite some goods slumbers (and fate cards) that help you. And the other ones also give you an opportunity to prepare your gems, progress cards, etc, before entering the dream. I feel so blessed to have this game in my collection. I feel this is truly a work of art. Something people that are not "in the hobby" might not even understand. I went all in on Kickstarter, so this was quite an investment, but I'm sooo glad I made that decision. My personal advice: If you ever get the chance to get a copy of this game, don't hesitate and grab it. You won't regret the experience of a lifetime.
@@vasarat1 Well, easier said then done I'm afraid. I've tinnitus that keeps me from sleeping until I'm pretty much exhausted. I'm getting treatment but it is a very slow process. But thanks for the advice anyways.
I think this comment is appropriate right here... Doing art and making stories on LSD is getting interesting results, writing rules on the other hand, isn't...
This is one of the best reviews you've done so far Quinns! It epitomised every bit of anxiety this game gives me when considering it's purchase. The umbrella extension and dodgy accountant bit were particular highlights!
Tom Vassel also thought Tainted Grail was great and I curse him every time I look at that game taking up a LOT of room on my shelf based upon his review. So I'm willing to trust Quinn's advice when making the decision to not purchase Etherfields.
Eventually ran into similar issues with Tainted Grail and 7th Continent where the gameplay eventually felt like it impeded the fun of exploration and discovery.
Funnily enough, my partner and I have been having traumatic flashbacks to our time with Arkham Horror LCG while watching this video. Needless to say, we, uhh... didn't have the best time with it. But that was an awesome review, Quinns! It brought me a lot of cheer right when I was feeling down, so thank you for this.
4 роки тому+19
I'm gonna laugh so hard if Quinns wears that same shirt for the next review.
Thank you for doing a review of this kickstarter game, you just saved me €100! I hope in 2021 you guys do more kickstarter reviews, because I know a heck of a lot of people want to see your expert opinions of them!
I really didn't like when at the end of the video I cackled maniacally, just for fun, at him closing the box on himself only for him to ask if I was laughing. Maybe I'm dreaming too...
I backed Etherfields right as I seriously got into playing board games. The themes and art fascinated me, and I had heard good things about Nemesis, so I was excited. Unfortunately, as I was waiting, I picked up Gloomhaven and soon started to realize that I had probably just picked up a better version of Etherfields. On the bright side, the miniatures still look gorgeous, and I can’t wait to see my player’s surprise when I slam one down in D&D.
Just wanted to let you guys know that you’re awesome. My missus and I have been binge-watching your videos this month, and we’ve invested in 2 new board games due to your reviews. Eclipse, and Root. We’re big fans. Thank you.
I have a huge back catalog atm, but it's been on my wishlist. What's the elevator pitch for why the game's worth it? Might pick it up during Christmas...
@@chayashida the writing is absurdly great, but the thing that sold it for me was (and this is a bit oversimplified) that instead of role playing a party of characters, you’re role playing the emotions and life experiences of a single character. You don’t just (as a made-up example) level up your resilience, you have a conversation with your resilience that might improve it, or maybe you’ll fail and get some weird psychosis that is mostly bad but occasionally helpful? It’s just a very cool system
I am about 30 hours in. I started skipping slumbers about 15 hours ago. I still enjoy the game though. I would recommend to Quinns and others starting that the game improves after 10 hours as the cards you purchase are more complex, situational and more powerful then the very very boring starter deck which you will be using for those first 10 hours. At my stage I have pretty much created my whole deck and the card play is more enjoyable then it was 30 hours ago. As far as the review, AR really really overdid the padding to unessesarily increase time played, they did the same in Tatinted Grail as well so its becoming a habit of AR to create a great game and pad it with fluff. The dreams are a 9 out of 10 from me, the slumbers which are sadly 66% of the game are 4 out of 10. I heavily recommend you start house ruling in ways to skip a third to a half of the slumbers. The more time you spend in the dreams and the less in slumbers the more you will like this game. At the moment we just start skipping slumbers with no penalty as soon as we want to, I dont think taking a penalty is a good idea that can certainly balloon into casual imortality. In one play we didnt have time for slumbers so skipped them all and started the dream on setup, skipping hours, it was great. Going forward we will probably just eliminate needing keys at all to open dreams, so you just head to the entrance and get started without doing key marathons to grab them while triggering 5 or so extra slumbers. I think you just need to see Slumbers for what they are, time sinks (I wouldnt even call them grinding as the reward for each one generally does not even undo the damage you take in one) and also ways to test your character progression and set up a few prepared cards for the dream. If you love grinding do the 5 to 10 per dream you are supposed to, if you don't do 2 or 3 then without guilt make a couple of keys appear with magic and set up the next dream to enjoy. So unlike Quinns I like the game but ultimately I would give the same recommendation, do not play the game under the rules given. For reference I gave Etherfields a 7 on BGG after my first 2 plays (8hours). I have since upgraded that to a 9 after 25 hours.
I don't know what I like more from SUSD, watching a a decent review of a game I might actually buy or a snarky rebuff of a big box kickstarter that I would never think of purchasing if my life depended on it..
As someone who didn’t Kickstart Etherfields and is playing it with a friend I would like to share some thoughts. We have played close to 20 hrs of game play. This game is a multiplayer must! Playing this solo would be like trying to play D&D solo. The game sticks heavily to the theme even if at sometimes it feels somewhat unbalanced. That being said just like D&D you will watch crazy saves and insane feats that are only amazing because those odds sometimes seems impossible. As you build your deck you can begin to change those odds. But the theme of being a Dreamer who doesn’t know what’s going on and can’t fully control the world around them remains (or at least has so far). It’s the theme I find so attractive as well as the art. I don’t think this review is fair. And hope to provide the proverbial “devil’s advocate” if ever so briefly
Had me going at the beginning. I've heard tons of mixed reviews on this, so I was really interested when SU&SD had a review on it. I've been digging story/campaign games so this piqued my interested and I almost backed it originally. I would probably end up playing this solo, and Quinns really nailed it with the "house ruling" everything because I probably would do the same. It seems like Awaken Realms could have had a hit here, but they just added way too much onto it. The dreams sound really cool, but everything else sounds very taxing. It also struck me as odd when Awaken Realms forced in minis on this game, when there are A) not enough minis included to represented all the creatures, and B) you may not even use all the minis. Definitely makes me hesitant to even look at ISS Vanguard with this many glaring errors in this story driven game.
The overworld phase really isn’t as bad as Quinns makes out and honestly it’s really good. It might get a little monotonous at times but not very often.
The minis aren’t forced into Etherfields, they were an add on, and was explicitly advertised that they offer no game play elements. The core game comes with just tokens, if you prefer to go that route.
If you played with 1-2 others (so a 2-3p) game you may have had a different experience in terms of difficulty - it actually gets easier the more you play with (without too much more downtime as turns are simultaneous in a sense as there is no turn structure). The reason for this is that you get more actions per dream overall and other Dreamers (depending on their deck composition) make up for shortfalls in your hand draw turn to turn. So yes, I think that you should give it another try when you get get others around to share the experience with. It becomes vastly more enjoyable (at least for me so far).
Getting a little nervous about my plan to back ISS Vanguard. The theme appeals to me MUCH more than Etherfields, but afraid it might have some of the same issues. On the other hand, it will probably be hard to find if I don't back it. The FOMO is strong...
I backed tainted grail, the theme really appealed to me. Unless Awaken Realms has learnt A LOT I'm going to pass. Perhaps just pass on the kickstarter and pick it up in a year or two if the reviews are decent.
"Now I've got that sprint of complaining out the way, I'm going to talk about the things that are awesome" Me: releases a breath he's been holding for 3 minutes Edit: oh dear.
@@Ditocoaf tbh I was kinda suprised to see SU&SD reviewing it, Etherfields is very much not normally their kind of game. Then I was suprised that Quinns seemed to like it. Then Quinns pulled out mid-review turnaround... What a rollercoaster!
Did not expect the Disco Elysium recommendation but definitely agree. I can't stop thinking about Disco Elysium and I plan on replaying it this holiday season.
I honestly don't care about this game one bit but Quinns, I just wanted to say your home looks lovely (well the small part we could see in the video anyway)
While I firmly agree that painting miniatures is a separate hobby, I like the miniatures, and most of the miniatures are an option and not required for gameplay. And while I respect the review-and good grief you are right about the board-so far we're still loving it. I notice that that the example you gave of a baffling rule was something we just looked up in the index (for all its many faults, the rulebook has an index, hoorah!), and maybe we just have a large appetite for microoptimisation? I don't know. But so far it's seemed like reasonable entertainment per dollar. Maybe I'll see if I agree with you *after* we get tired of it…!
We're loving our experience so far with this game, it truly feels like a dream. I agree the slumbers can be a bit dull, I'm sad to hear that you didn't enjoy it as much. It gave me a bit of 7th Continent and TIME Stories vibes, the story telling in this game is quite wonderful.
@@WritesMe The tutorial was actually lovely, pretty straight forward, the rulebook is easy to reference to as well. Learning new games is always a challenge but if you're patient I'm sure you'll love this one.
I can't watch this until I play mine ... I just got it the other day! If it's terrible, I don't want to know. I have to at least a few plays out of it first ...
Oh my is this going to go down like a lead balloon, how dare you criticise a game like this Mr Smith! And it's content like this that makes me love SUSD. Keep going. I feel the same flavour of lack of interest because of poor design elements as I did in my playthrough through 7th Continent.
7th continent is exactly the game I thought of when he started cheating. It's what we did the third time we failed the first curse in 7th Continent, and then the whole thing became pointless because we couldn't die anymore, half the mechanics became pointless and the game fell apart. We haven't reached that point with Etherfields yet, but I can't see us starting from scratch if we fail one dream.
I agree about the basics being more of a procedure than involving any actual choice. I still like the game, but it definitely has its flaws. Btw I doubt you’ll read this, but you’re really cute 😊
Everytime I see these cooperative content Kickstarter games I just think: “Oh that’s cool, but wouldn’t it just be unfathomably better as a video game.”
SO much this. It's like no one's told these designers that randomizing simple mechanics can create almost infinite content. Example; Dominion. Though, obviously there's a lot to be designed in taking a mechanic like the randomization in dominion, and turning it into an RPG.
In fairness a load of bad reviews is a bit of a waste of time for everyone. Much better to find things that are decent+ and spend time on those. They have even said quite a few times that’s what their aim is. So any video review you should expect the game to be at least decent.
@@DodgerB763 Depends on the reviewer. Rahdo filters what games he even will look at based on personal preferences, while Tom Vasel sometimes does scathing reviews (but just in short form nowadays).
Etherfields added an update today that you might like that they are going to add to Wave 2. (thats when players get everything else). This is from their post today. Continuous Dream mode! After first wave delivered we are obviously looking over all your feedback and are already developing more adventures for wave 2, based on that! But we also decided to add few things to support Core Box experience based on some request! One of the thing, that we can see is that some players don't have the time for the full 50 hours experience and would like to have an option to go through only core story and gameplay. While playing "normal" mode is something that we definitely recommend as default game scenario, we understand (having very little time to play games ourselves :D). That is why we decided to create additional mode to the game called "Continuous dream mode" - in this mode, we will create a special set of rules that will make your travels through the Dream map much faster . Also, instead of playing slumbers, we will offer you a "speed up" version of them (where you will be able to skip given slumber and gain some extra resources for Pain or sealing cards). This should shorten the campaigns from Core Box to around 25-30 hours and while a lot of gameplay experience will be lost (thus not recommended), it might be very useful for someone with little time on their hands ;) We decided to add a small booklet and a special Wisdom card that will accommodate this mode to Wave 2 (and perhaps as PDF with updates, once we will test everything out ;) ).
Hey all! Quinns here. I'd like to reply to the folks who pointed out that you can, in fact, skip Slumbers, and that there are rules for it in the manual. I also saw some people asking if I had unlocked the "Deliverance" mechanic that lets you permanently remove Slumbers from the game.
Mea culpa: I did miss the rule about skipping encounters! I'm sure it was just one of several rules that I missed. However, on investigating my copy of the game I found that (a) only *some* Slumber encounters feature an option to skip them, and (b) the penalty you get for skipping combat encounters is *hellacious*. In the case of the first monster in the game, your deck permanently gains TWO flaw cards each time you skip it. So that's no good at all and it certainly doesn't change my review.
As for Deliverance, I did indeed unlock this feature of the game. However, Deliverance is not the panacea that I, too, hoped it would be when I unlocked it.
Deliverance gives you the option of fighting a lengthened, more painful battle with a creature to try and remove it from the game forever. However, this involves trying to pick the right Deliverance card from 5 options, and if you're wrong you might just make the battle harder, or, in one encounter, you permanently replace the monster encounter with an /even more powerful monster/. This happened to me. It was one of the moments that made me happy to write a review that was so negative.
the cynic I am writing anything negative makes me happy, way to go Quinns xD
Thanks for the Disco Elysium recommendation!
DE is ace, I’ve been playing it over the last British lockdown.
@ Max . I think his point was, he wasn’t having fun, the experience was cumbersome, and the outcome just made it more cumbersome. Mentioning that as a game reviewer is part of his role. I can see how he wrote it, it looks like he’s maliciously being negative for the sake of being negative.
I know when I buy a big box game $100-plus, I look for positives to help me justify my purchase, while actively overlooking negatives. And I find myself defending the game in spite of my dissatisfaction. In the end, when my game group comes over, no matter how much conniving I do to get Nemesis to the table, we end up playing Sushi Go or Takenoko. Feedback from friends that have no financial stake in a game, helps me know the actual value of the game.
@@maxmustermann9036 Disco elysium is a unique game. Ive played games for over 30 years, and nothing like this one.
Note that it might look like a regular RPG (like Baldurs Gate, Divinity OS etc) its more of a point and click adventure game with glourious dialogue and supreme diversity in how you play it.
Its a game that embraces failing. You can, if you want, play as a permanently alcoholic as depressed looser... And be rewarded in game for acting "in character".
Or maybe you are a racist asshole? The game wont penalize you for it. It will reward you for acting like a racist,of thats the choices youve made.
Its also both very funny and very tragic. My only gripe is the ending. It goes from solid 5 out of 5,to having an ending thats more 4 out of 5.
Had it stuck the landing it would have been The game of the decade for me
On the topic of missed rules (because I also ran into "what the heck do I do to add a turn?") To Awaken Realms' credit, the index specifically has "Turn Add Turn" referencing pages 10,15. 10 explains where the card comes from and goes. 15 tells you you can spend hours to take extra turns!
Definitely a fan of Quinn's big box phase
After the worm phase comes the box phase... what will be the next one?
@@technom22 If we considerer that there's a trend, I say after worm->box, there's death phase and then emo phase
co-op board games need to be fun even when you're failing.
Agreed. I just had a similar conversation with some of my friends the other day. I asked them, is a game being easy not fun? And the reasoning was, with so many cooperative games on the market, so many of them seem overly difficult. I realize this increases replayability, but that's only to a point. Losing is not fun. In the right circumstances, you can have fun and lose, but losing hours of progress is never, and will never be fun.
It's not about beign "FUN" when you lose, it's about beign INTERESTING.
I get why some games are "you lose, start from zero"... but if you are in the middle of a story driven game... that's not interesting... that's not even thematicaly apropiate. It would be more interesting if it gave you a minor setback and maybe changed something along the path.
Heck, there are games that use "failing" as the main progression system for the game. So when you lose, you get better. Then you go "I'll get it THIS time!"
@@abefroman81 A game doesn't have to be easy to be fun, just not tedious. That's what ultimately killed this game for Quinns, it became tedious.
@@GambitsEnd I wasn't saying that a game has to be easy to be fun but rather, if a game is easy, does that make it not fun? Take a video game for example of Diablo 3. For the better part of the game, you're thrown dozens of enemies that pose little danger to you, but the fun lies in using all the cool abilities and tools you acquire in laying waste to them. Bosses offer a more strategic approach sometimes, but other times they just require the right amount of endurance and health management. This is the kind of gameplay I'd like to see in some board games.
This game isn't that fun even when you're winning. For now, it's so "acceptable" for me, that in the days I can't get more than 3 players it's still better than another campaign game that I have around, less rules overhead, quite nice moment to moment gameplay, but if Quinns is right in how this is going to turn out... I don't know. The game was interesting in how it changed from dream to dream so far, so there's that. Hopefully Vasel and some reviews I've read online are right here. Hell, I love Arcadia Quest, and Quinns hates it, so...
Reminder that Quinns finished Pathologic 1 before the better translation came out, but stopped playing this game.
Wow, that is definitely saying something.
Damn
You don't have to sleep in a cardboard box, Quinns, you can sleep in a bathtub or a large mixing bowl
"Or if you were looking for a surreal, one player adventure... it's 2020."
I really hoped he would just stop talking at that point because it was a perfect line.
And I hoped he would suggest an actual board game.
@@stravvman -- cool...?
Yes, but where's the reference pear? I'm lost without it. Yes there are bananas, but how am I supposed to know if those bananas are the same size as the bananas I have in my home?
It's those little missing details that let you know the review was done in a dream.
@@Zizhou Wait a sec...
The reference pair is Quinn's totem, like DiCaprio's top in Inception
"My campaign started to feature more fudging than the books of a crooked accountant working at a failing fudge factory on double fudge Friday." Seriously the best quote ever!
Sounds like you invented a new badge, Quinns: "Shut up & Sit Down, categorically recommends...playing a video game instead"
Yeah for a board game reviewer, that might be the harshest criticism I've heard levelled at a board game yet. Damn. But to be fair I saw Etherfields as an early prototype a long time ago and while pretty, we recognized it was flimsy as fuck as far as the gameplay goes even back then.
@@Carighan Also to be fair, Disco Elysium is one of the best video games
so there's that
13:09
That is some choice umbrella usage.
21:14 My main takeaway from this review is that Quinns' tongue is much, much longer than I ever expected.
👀
It’s like a hummingbird.
Its how he gets all the ladies
@@alwaysplaythegame it's a family show
"the the mural in a children's hospital, it looks fun, but it's not fooling anyone: this is a procedure." holy shit
The shot with the umbrella really drives-home the point, and is so satisfying to watch!
😂 Bravo! 👏👏
Quinns: "at just 75 pounds for the core box..."
me: "wow that's a heavy box, must be a lot of cards"
Quinns: "... plus shipping"
me: "oh... money..."
Yeah I actually went and thought to myself: 75 pounds? Shipping must be killing!
Is this some kind of American joke that I'm too international standards to understand?
@@jonatanrullman maybe British?
I had the same reaction!
I mean, it IS a Kickstarter game - at the current rate of escalation one of them will have to hit that thirty kilos eventually.
That fake outro with the eastender music that you also put in the root review is now my ringtone
It's so good.
Will we ever have SUSD x EastEnders crossovers?
@@luigiscazzari4724 stream of the eastenders board game when?
A game about dreams that ultimately disappoints....is this just “Kickstarter: The Game”
It didn't have to be that way. If I redo the rules, it will be a totally different game (experience).
Haha that's hilarious
I call those work dreams.
@@RulebooksForYou isnt it a bit to late change the rules if the game is already shipped XD
@@FaytTheXpert Printable or Shippable, and maybe 2nd Edition?
OHHHHH I LOVE THIS TIME OF THE DAY
I have never heard so much negativity early on in a SU&SD review. I figured this would be a unique video. Yes, yes it was. Thanks for being so open and honest about your thoughts on this game.
"I didn't feel like playing by the rules" is perhaps the most damning thing a board game reviewer can say
I don't know, some designers are pretty cool about that, "make it your own" and that kind of stuff... as a person that plays TTRPG a lot... yeaaaah sometimes the "rules as written" are garbage.
Not really, most games are better with a few house rule to customize them to your group.
I feel like it’s more a case of ‘you ruined the experience for yourself, the designers had little to do with that’
@@TeChNoWC7 what do you mean? "if the rules lead to uninteresting gameplay, it has a lot to with the designers"
Random Encounters are one of those design choices that can be a hit or miss depending on how well implemented it is.
If it only leads to combat... it's meant to attack your resources (specially if they don't drop anything when you killed them, or they give no xp). But if lead to different things, combat/parley/trade/information... then you ARE looking toward a better system... and you don't need to change a lot of rules!
I think recommending a videogame instead is way harsher... 😂 😂
I feel like "Kickstarter game" should be its own genre at this point
For the big box games I understand that cause most of them are just bland rules and lots of miniatures and the illusion of content. But the thing is some Kickstarter games are incredible but you wont know unless you back it and play it. If you don't back it you will have to pay way more for it or not get it at all.
@@Urek968 if you define the genre as the game style and not rigidly having actually been kickstarted, it'd be fine.
@@marrioman13 yeah I definitely mean your archetypal big box high price tag lotsominis games, not just any game that's happened to be launched on kickstarter. Kind of an "all kickstarter games were funded by kickstarter, but not all games funded by kickstarter are kickstarter games" thing
Not wrong.
It’s the genre with graphic that never suck 😊
Can disco elysium get the official su&sd rec- imagine the absurdity of that pear on its steam page
That's an awesome idea that should actually happen!
Great review! My wife and I are several hours into Etherfields and I have noticed the same pros and cons. The dreams are interesting and diversely themed but the first time I realized that the Dreamworld map and slumbers were essentially rinse and repeat I produced an audible groan.
"Are you laughing" he spontaneously asks as I'm genuinely laughing out loud.
I have never felt so directly talked to in a video than I was in that moment.
@@aussiegecko1892 It felt like a true breaking of the 4th wall. I thought he could hear me for a second before realising that's absurd... right?
“Is An Car crash” -Quentin Smith
quinns likes making jokes about being alone
because he's never alone
i'd like to report a murder
"Quickly run out of splace" - What's in your coffee Quinns? Cause it smells a lot like Blaseball...
Excellent work, thank you for the review! Your discussion of how you'd started cheating to avoid losing progress and suffering through long, extended negative play experiences really hit home. I've been there for sure.
I believe Quinns did cover Blaseball for People Make Games recently, if you've not already seen it :)
It honestly sounds like the experiences I've had with Tainted Grail as well...
Me: *quietly pushes my receipt for Return to Dark Tower behind the door.*
I am so glad this review came out after i backed this kickstarter to the max. I have received the game and LOVE it. I want to play every day and the slumbers are a reflection on how well you are playing. If you play well, slumbers that are neutral or positive are added. Sometimes you might get punished for playing badly. The slumbers are those recurring dreams we sometimes have. And there is story in them. I think if you play like SU&SD is doing, you will never find joy in any game. I am so glad wave 2 is coming with 3 expansions.
This might be THE most savage review Ive ever seen out of SU&SD, and Ive been watching since they were on Penny Arcade.
Also holy shit Quinns' tongue is REALLY LONG?!?
...Ladies.
@@godlaydying Time to pop those upper shirt buttons again I presume.
Lol, I thought I was the only one who was startled by his tongue!
I feel like he's in a bad mood because of things not having to do with Etherfields. That whole review lacked the substance I've come to enjoy from his reviews and was unnecessarily negative about things he usually doesn't complain about.
@@trianglestri7487 Not sure I got the "compare to rpg", it was mostly compared to Arkham Horror LCG
You guys just have THE BEST reviews. You don't sugar coat anything. You truly help me decide if I'll like something or not. and I love you for it.
When kickstarter board game companies dream of the SUSD effect on their game, but it turns into a nightmare...
Except you know they took nearly four million pounds on kickstarter so they woke up from the dream on thier new expensive mattress.
@@grandad1982 Yikes! Guess you can't have your feelings hurt that bad with numbers like that :0
First time viewer here! I usually skip reviews to where I need them to be, aka spam that 15 sec podcast button, but this was funny, brutally honest and succinct! You sir, have earned a subscriber!
When people want to make a video game, but they have too many artist friends and not enough programmer friends, they usually take one of two paths:
1. watch some Unity tutorials and put up some walking simulators on Patreon
2. commission an artbook and repurpose it as a "board game" for Kickstarter
We're one year later, and I've played tens of hours of Etherfields, and I feel I have to share this feeling I got from my last game: This is simply the best, most rewarding game I've ever played. Every dream keeps surprising us. Every game is different and complex, and after completing a dream I always feel high for at least a day.
There have been some different opinions on the slumbers, but I find them very much fun. You may be surprised but there are quite some goods slumbers (and fate cards) that help you. And the other ones also give you an opportunity to prepare your gems, progress cards, etc, before entering the dream.
I feel so blessed to have this game in my collection. I feel this is truly a work of art. Something people that are not "in the hobby" might not even understand.
I went all in on Kickstarter, so this was quite an investment, but I'm sooo glad I made that decision.
My personal advice: If you ever get the chance to get a copy of this game, don't hesitate and grab it. You won't regret the experience of a lifetime.
I can only imagine that 0:15 is how anyone in my family feels internally when they see i've brought one of my newfangled board games to play
Omg I'm drying :))))))))))
Me, with a non-existent sleep schedule in quarantine: lmao I don't understand how the awakening system works irl.
I feel you... What even is a healthy amount of sleep at a reasonable time?
Me at 3 AM reading this comment: haha no idea what you're talking about...
@@2MeatyOwlLegs Go to sleep as close to 10:00 pm as you can.
@@vasarat1 Well, easier said then done I'm afraid. I've tinnitus that keeps me from sleeping until I'm pretty much exhausted. I'm getting treatment but it is a very slow process. But thanks for the advice anyways.
Quinn’s that Rolodex reference is the oldest you’ve ever sounded 😂
This boy still dreams of working in an office I can tell
Rolodex was a card on Netrunner at the time he played it, I think that's one of the reasons the word is fresh in his mind.
Ending absolutely killed me (as usual!)
I think this comment is appropriate right here... Doing art and making stories on LSD is getting interesting results, writing rules on the other hand, isn't...
The umbrella-bit caught me off guard. Laughed so loud my girlfriend woke up. Now I have to wait until morning to finish the video.
I don't like etherfields and I like gloomhaven, but the main criticism Quin has for Etherfields it can be applied to Gloomhaven too.
This is one of the best reviews you've done so far Quinns! It epitomised every bit of anxiety this game gives me when considering it's purchase. The umbrella extension and dodgy accountant bit were particular highlights!
As an American, hearing "At 75 pounds..." at first I was like.... "that's a LOT of components".
The art and card concepts looked so wondrous and unique... such a shame that it doesn't hold together.
How about a xmas special where Quinns and Tom Vasel discuss their wildly opposing views on this game?
Tom Vassel also thought Tainted Grail was great and I curse him every time I look at that game taking up a LOT of room on my shelf based upon his review.
So I'm willing to trust Quinn's advice when making the decision to not purchase Etherfields.
This was a strange episode of Cool Ghosts...
Eventually ran into similar issues with Tainted Grail and 7th Continent where the gameplay eventually felt like it impeded the fun of exploration and discovery.
exactly
wow - the art is amazing. feels like this could have been a realy good game with some more play testing
Yeah the art does seem pretty unique, at least I've never seen anything like it.
Funnily enough, my partner and I have been having traumatic flashbacks to our time with Arkham Horror LCG while watching this video. Needless to say, we, uhh... didn't have the best time with it. But that was an awesome review, Quinns! It brought me a lot of cheer right when I was feeling down, so thank you for this.
I'm gonna laugh so hard if Quinns wears that same shirt for the next review.
Thank you for doing a review of this kickstarter game, you just saved me €100! I hope in 2021 you guys do more kickstarter reviews, because I know a heck of a lot of people want to see your expert opinions of them!
I really didn't like when at the end of the video I cackled maniacally, just for fun, at him closing the box on himself only for him to ask if I was laughing. Maybe I'm dreaming too...
Legitimately was looking for a review and couldn't believe in my suprise your video came up, keep up the great work guys
Amazing review. Im happy that you guys are honest and arent afraid to speak the truth
And as always I laughed my ass off :)
If I may suggest. "If sonic was catatonic" as an alternate sentence
This review just made me buy the game without question even if he didn't like it! Thank you!
I backed Etherfields right as I seriously got into playing board games. The themes and art fascinated me, and I had heard good things about Nemesis, so I was excited. Unfortunately, as I was waiting, I picked up Gloomhaven and soon started to realize that I had probably just picked up a better version of Etherfields. On the bright side, the miniatures still look gorgeous, and I can’t wait to see my player’s surprise when I slam one down in D&D.
nooooooo two different stories and game mechanics. Both are excellent games! Love both, just hate the fiddliness of both.
Sounds like Quinns actually won Etherfields by waking up in the real world and not playing the game. Like waking up from a nightmare.
The only way to win is not to play.
Just wanted to let you guys know that you’re awesome. My missus and I have been binge-watching your videos this month, and we’ve invested in 2 new board games due to your reviews. Eclipse, and Root. We’re big fans. Thank you.
Disco Elysium is on sale on Steam at the time of this comment.
*This* is the correct antidote.
Oh shoot, it appears to be out of stock now
I have a huge back catalog atm, but it's been on my wishlist. What's the elevator pitch for why the game's worth it? Might pick it up during Christmas...
@@chayashida Its main selling point would be the clever writing. Buy it if you like well written games.
@@chayashida the writing is absurdly great, but the thing that sold it for me was (and this is a bit oversimplified) that instead of role playing a party of characters, you’re role playing the emotions and life experiences of a single character. You don’t just (as a made-up example) level up your resilience, you have a conversation with your resilience that might improve it, or maybe you’ll fail and get some weird psychosis that is mostly bad but occasionally helpful?
It’s just a very cool system
I am about 30 hours in. I started skipping slumbers about 15 hours ago. I still enjoy the game though.
I would recommend to Quinns and others starting that the game improves after 10 hours as the cards you purchase are more complex, situational and more powerful then the very very boring starter deck which you will be using for those first 10 hours. At my stage I have pretty much created my whole deck and the card play is more enjoyable then it was 30 hours ago.
As far as the review, AR really really overdid the padding to unessesarily increase time played, they did the same in Tatinted Grail as well so its becoming a habit of AR to create a great game and pad it with fluff. The dreams are a 9 out of 10 from me, the slumbers which are sadly 66% of the game are 4 out of 10. I heavily recommend you start house ruling in ways to skip a third to a half of the slumbers. The more time you spend in the dreams and the less in slumbers the more you will like this game.
At the moment we just start skipping slumbers with no penalty as soon as we want to, I dont think taking a penalty is a good idea that can certainly balloon into casual imortality. In one play we didnt have time for slumbers so skipped them all and started the dream on setup, skipping hours, it was great. Going forward we will probably just eliminate needing keys at all to open dreams, so you just head to the entrance and get started without doing key marathons to grab them while triggering 5 or so extra slumbers.
I think you just need to see Slumbers for what they are, time sinks (I wouldnt even call them grinding as the reward for each one generally does not even undo the damage you take in one) and also ways to test your character progression and set up a few prepared cards for the dream. If you love grinding do the 5 to 10 per dream you are supposed to, if you don't do 2 or 3 then without guilt make a couple of keys appear with magic and set up the next dream to enjoy.
So unlike Quinns I like the game but ultimately I would give the same recommendation, do not play the game under the rules given. For reference I gave Etherfields a 7 on BGG after my first 2 plays (8hours). I have since upgraded that to a 9 after 25 hours.
I don't know what I like more from SUSD, watching a a decent review of a game I might actually buy or a snarky rebuff of a big box kickstarter that I would never think of purchasing if my life depended on it..
The latter is more likely to save you money :)
@@adampcrossmusic Haha, too true
I like how they write 4 minutes of excellent copy for a game at the start of a negative review.
As someone who didn’t Kickstart Etherfields and is playing it with a friend I would like to share some thoughts. We have played close to 20 hrs of game play. This game is a multiplayer must! Playing this solo would be like trying to play D&D solo. The game sticks heavily to the theme even if at sometimes it feels somewhat unbalanced. That being said just like D&D you will watch crazy saves and insane feats that are only amazing because those odds sometimes seems impossible. As you build your deck you can begin to change those odds. But the theme of being a Dreamer who doesn’t know what’s going on and can’t fully control the world around them remains (or at least has so far). It’s the theme I find so attractive as well as the art. I don’t think this review is fair. And hope to provide the proverbial “devil’s advocate” if ever so briefly
I totally agree with everything you said..
Great review as always...love and happy and safe holidays to all of SU&SD
9:33 Break down !_ ! You guys are the best!
Oh, boy. This reflects my experience with and thoughts about the game a hundred percent :-(
Had me going at the beginning. I've heard tons of mixed reviews on this, so I was really interested when SU&SD had a review on it. I've been digging story/campaign games so this piqued my interested and I almost backed it originally. I would probably end up playing this solo, and Quinns really nailed it with the "house ruling" everything because I probably would do the same.
It seems like Awaken Realms could have had a hit here, but they just added way too much onto it. The dreams sound really cool, but everything else sounds very taxing.
It also struck me as odd when Awaken Realms forced in minis on this game, when there are A) not enough minis included to represented all the creatures, and B) you may not even use all the minis.
Definitely makes me hesitant to even look at ISS Vanguard with this many glaring errors in this story driven game.
The overworld phase really isn’t as bad as Quinns makes out and honestly it’s really good. It might get a little monotonous at times but not very often.
The minis aren’t forced into Etherfields, they were an add on, and was explicitly advertised that they offer no game play elements. The core game comes with just tokens, if you prefer to go that route.
17:03 Love your jar of plastic bags, Quinn! Really ties the room together :p
If you played with 1-2 others (so a 2-3p) game you may have had a different experience in terms of difficulty - it actually gets easier the more you play with (without too much more downtime as turns are simultaneous in a sense as there is no turn structure). The reason for this is that you get more actions per dream overall and other Dreamers (depending on their deck composition) make up for shortfalls in your hand draw turn to turn. So yes, I think that you should give it another try when you get get others around to share the experience with. It becomes vastly more enjoyable (at least for me so far).
Agree with you. Seems this game plays better with group than solo
From the video, I don’t think he played it true solo, it looked more like multi handed.
THANK YOU! I appreciate your honesty. So many people blindly praise companies based on production quality and not gameplay.
A game about nightmares has a nightmarish rulebook, that's really thematic
Rulebook its ok, clear
5:30 was a sound effect from Theif? I've been playing a lot of that recently and the noise sounded really familiar
Oohh, that stinger took me back.
"Bloody neighbours with their Christmas cheer while I sleep in a box"
That kind of sums up 2020.
Getting a little nervous about my plan to back ISS Vanguard. The theme appeals to me MUCH more than Etherfields, but afraid it might have some of the same issues. On the other hand, it will probably be hard to find if I don't back it. The FOMO is strong...
I think the dice tower made a video playing it, it may clear you mind ;)
@@albertoburgassi Quackalope too, I think
I backed tainted grail, the theme really appealed to me. Unless Awaken Realms has learnt A LOT I'm going to pass. Perhaps just pass on the kickstarter and pick it up in a year or two if the reviews are decent.
"Now I've got that sprint of complaining out the way, I'm going to talk about the things that are awesome"
Me: releases a breath he's been holding for 3 minutes
Edit: oh dear.
Yeah, that was just the eye of the storm, wasn't it
@@Ditocoaf tbh I was kinda suprised to see SU&SD reviewing it, Etherfields is very much not normally their kind of game. Then I was suprised that Quinns seemed to like it. Then Quinns pulled out mid-review turnaround...
What a rollercoaster!
When the word "Kickstarter" is dropped, I brace myself
Once you have the 2.0 rules are you going to do an update about if that fixes your issues with the game?
Did not expect the Disco Elysium recommendation but definitely agree. I can't stop thinking about Disco Elysium and I plan on replaying it this holiday season.
aghostdream I’ve never cried and laughed as much with a video game as when playing DE
I’m on holiday before Christmas might give it a go.
Hilarious as ever! I love the part where he said "except I would have a friend here...". LOL that part was so hilariously on-point! xD
I honestly don't care about this game one bit but Quinns, I just wanted to say your home looks lovely (well the small part we could see in the video anyway)
Okay, I love the continuity nod to the last video :)
While I firmly agree that painting miniatures is a separate hobby, I like the miniatures, and most of the miniatures are an option and not required for gameplay.
And while I respect the review-and good grief you are right about the board-so far we're still loving it. I notice that that the example you gave of a baffling rule was something we just looked up in the index (for all its many faults, the rulebook has an index, hoorah!), and maybe we just have a large appetite for microoptimisation? I don't know. But so far it's seemed like reasonable entertainment per dollar. Maybe I'll see if I agree with you *after* we get tired of it…!
I absolutely love it so far....
This is a great review in so many ways. Thank you for the insight and content!
My reaction to seeing Quinns was reviewing this game was the moment I realised I need to be helping financially support SUSD.
We're loving our experience so far with this game, it truly feels like a dream. I agree the slumbers can be a bit dull, I'm sad to hear that you didn't enjoy it as much. It gave me a bit of 7th Continent and TIME Stories vibes, the story telling in this game is quite wonderful.
@@WritesMe After understanding the basic rules, it is really not hard to understand.
@@WritesMe The tutorial was actually lovely, pretty straight forward, the rulebook is easy to reference to as well. Learning new games is always a challenge but if you're patient I'm sure you'll love this one.
I can't watch this until I play mine ... I just got it the other day! If it's terrible, I don't want to know. I have to at least a few plays out of it first ...
F
□ (for playstation)
Alt+F4
If you like it, that's great! If you don't, that's a shame. A review is just someone else's opinion, after all.
Awaken Realms games hold their value so even if you hate it you should be able to sell it for more or at least what you got out of it.
Love the umbrella moment at 13:10
Very happy to see the return of the "He''ll be back next week" meme
Upvote for "an car crash."
I always felt sad that I had to cancel my pledge. So glad that I can finally not feel that remorse.
Oh my is this going to go down like a lead balloon, how dare you criticise a game like this Mr Smith!
And it's content like this that makes me love SUSD. Keep going. I feel the same flavour of lack of interest because of poor design elements as I did in my playthrough through 7th Continent.
Excellent review, reminds me miserably of my time with The Seventh Continent.
7th continent is exactly the game I thought of when he started cheating. It's what we did the third time we failed the first curse in 7th Continent, and then the whole thing became pointless because we couldn't die anymore, half the mechanics became pointless and the game fell apart. We haven't reached that point with Etherfields yet, but I can't see us starting from scratch if we fail one dream.
Love the hand gestures at 7:24
I agree about the basics being more of a procedure than involving any actual choice. I still like the game, but it definitely has its flaws. Btw I doubt you’ll read this, but you’re really cute 😊
Agree... Quinns is one of my few "persons I'd forget I'm a straight man with". :)
Some really fun edits in this review. Very entertaining.
Everytime I see these cooperative content Kickstarter games I just think:
“Oh that’s cool, but wouldn’t it just be unfathomably better as a video game.”
SO much this.
It's like no one's told these designers that randomizing simple mechanics can create almost infinite content. Example; Dominion.
Though, obviously there's a lot to be designed in taking a mechanic like the randomization in dominion, and turning it into an RPG.
This review was a welcome change from the recent spat of glowing recommendations.
In fairness a load of bad reviews is a bit of a waste of time for everyone. Much better to find things that are decent+ and spend time on those.
They have even said quite a few times that’s what their aim is. So any video review you should expect the game to be at least decent.
@@DodgerB763 Depends on the reviewer. Rahdo filters what games he even will look at based on personal preferences, while Tom Vasel sometimes does scathing reviews (but just in short form nowadays).
@@TorIverWilhelmsen yes. But given this is a susd review, we are clearly talking about susd.
Etherfields added an update today that you might like that they are going to add to Wave 2. (thats when players get everything else). This is from their post today.
Continuous Dream mode!
After first wave delivered we are obviously looking over all your feedback and are already developing more adventures for wave 2, based on that! But we also decided to add few things to support Core Box experience based on some request!
One of the thing, that we can see is that some players don't have the time for the full 50 hours experience and would like to have an option to go through only core story and gameplay. While playing "normal" mode is something that we definitely recommend as default game scenario, we understand (having very little time to play games ourselves :D).
That is why we decided to create additional mode to the game called "Continuous dream mode" - in this mode, we will create a special set of rules that will make your travels through the Dream map much faster . Also, instead of playing slumbers, we will offer you a "speed up" version of them (where you will be able to skip given slumber and gain some extra resources for Pain or sealing cards).
This should shorten the campaigns from Core Box to around 25-30 hours and while a lot of gameplay experience will be lost (thus not recommended), it might be very useful for someone with little time on their hands ;)
We decided to add a small booklet and a special Wisdom card that will accommodate this mode to Wave 2 (and perhaps as PDF with updates, once we will test everything out ;) ).
@Shut up & Sit Down
Having played this, do you have any thoughts on ISS Vanguard, same publishes?