Something you don't mention in your math section where you compare the defensive abilities of Nurgle and Tzeentch is that the presence of an invuln save at all lets you choose whether to take armor or invuln. This means that if your opponent rolls a high number of crits with an AP2 weapon, you have the option of rolling your invuln, even a bad invuln, to have a better chance of rolling crits. While this isn't reliable, it does make invulns substantially better than the calculator that you're using suggests, because in actual gameplay, you can choose whichever is better for the situation. Need to block just one incoming normal hit with AP1? You have better odds with 2 dice on 3+. Need to block 2 crits and no normals with AP2? Vastly better odds on the 4+ invuln. The optional nature of invuln saves is particularly impactful vs AP1, like in the Krak grenade comparison, which was notably the only comparison where Tzeentch fared significantly worse than Nurgle. Factoring in optional invuln saves, Tzeentch has a much higher chance of taking exactly 0 damage, which I think is worth talking about. Doesn't massively impact the evaluation, at the end of the day, but I think it's something that deserves more attention than it often gets when discussing Legionary marks.
Also, comparing only the defense of Tzeentch vs. the defense of Nurgle when defense isn't even Tzeentch's main thing is a bit misleading. Tzeentch gets defense comparable to the defense mark, some nice shooting buffs, and 4APL on demand.
@@jeffreymonsell659The point is that people are taking Tzeentch BECAUSE of the 4++ invuln in the current meta, not for the other options in their arsenal. I think it's important to highlight that as a pure defensive option, Tzeentch is pretty much inferior. I've always believed that if you're taking Tzeentch, you should do it for the 4 APL plays, not for the invuln save.
I use the flamer on my legionary team and I have a good time with it. Just a fun weapon cause I like flame throwers and think plasma is stupid busted anyways. Is it actively handicapping me? Yes. Do I care? No if I am not in a tournament that I care about.
Extremely unlikely--it would tip the scales too much at casual levels and make elites too dominant. Probably would be too much at higher levels. As it stands, you need to make overwatch a much better ability and maybe give a pass option for teams with lower activations.
Thanks for the great video! In what scenarios would the Anointed be the better leader choice over the Aspiring Champion? From an outsider, it seems like the Anointed would be better for throwing into a horde of melee models to survive longer thanks to Soul Feast, otherwise the Aspiring Champion is the better choice?
Minor thing, Chosen is 2 circle less to a minimum of 1, since it doesn't knock the characteristic down you get around the minimum 2 circle clause. Only really matters for if someone is trying to fallback and do an objective or if you give him the Trophy though since they physically can't leave trophy range. EDIT: also the Khorne Mark says strike with one normal as if it were a crit, which I'm pretty sure works with most of the critical abilities in Legionaries since Chosen needs you to strike with critical damage and Butcher needs you to strike with a crit, but Balefire needs retained crits (doesn't work with him but he can't take Khorne anyway)
Great great work but I really think you discredited the other Tzeentch ploy, you roll a 6 on 3 dice 42% of the time and 35% with another fail. This basically gives you a free save 1/3 of the time which makes you really durable. Any Tzeentch player should be playing both of these all the time against most teams.
![[BoyzCast] Глубокое погружение: Legionary](/img/n.gif)
Finally the mythical legionary deep dive
Damn that's one nice table in the warzone ad. The owner of that table is probably one bad chicken
Something you don't mention in your math section where you compare the defensive abilities of Nurgle and Tzeentch is that the presence of an invuln save at all lets you choose whether to take armor or invuln. This means that if your opponent rolls a high number of crits with an AP2 weapon, you have the option of rolling your invuln, even a bad invuln, to have a better chance of rolling crits.
While this isn't reliable, it does make invulns substantially better than the calculator that you're using suggests, because in actual gameplay, you can choose whichever is better for the situation. Need to block just one incoming normal hit with AP1? You have better odds with 2 dice on 3+. Need to block 2 crits and no normals with AP2? Vastly better odds on the 4+ invuln. The optional nature of invuln saves is particularly impactful vs AP1, like in the Krak grenade comparison, which was notably the only comparison where Tzeentch fared significantly worse than Nurgle. Factoring in optional invuln saves, Tzeentch has a much higher chance of taking exactly 0 damage, which I think is worth talking about.
Doesn't massively impact the evaluation, at the end of the day, but I think it's something that deserves more attention than it often gets when discussing Legionary marks.
Also, comparing only the defense of Tzeentch vs. the defense of Nurgle when defense isn't even Tzeentch's main thing is a bit misleading. Tzeentch gets defense comparable to the defense mark, some nice shooting buffs, and 4APL on demand.
@@jeffreymonsell659The point is that people are taking Tzeentch BECAUSE of the 4++ invuln in the current meta, not for the other options in their arsenal. I think it's important to highlight that as a pure defensive option, Tzeentch is pretty much inferior. I've always believed that if you're taking Tzeentch, you should do it for the 4 APL plays, not for the invuln save.
Thanks for this you are awesome guys! Im looking forward for other deep dives :)
I use the flamer on my legionary team and I have a good time with it. Just a fun weapon cause I like flame throwers and think plasma is stupid busted anyways. Is it actively handicapping me? Yes. Do I care? No if I am not in a tournament that I care about.
Would love to see gw make a team for the DG heroes
Do you guys think elite teams in the future will receive an extra operative?
Extremely unlikely--it would tip the scales too much at casual levels and make elites too dominant. Probably would be too much at higher levels. As it stands, you need to make overwatch a much better ability and maybe give a pass option for teams with lower activations.
Legionary deep dive with one of the best Legionary players? Yes please
Would it be possible to get some of the backlog of videos onto Spotify, prior to this the last episode there was november
Thanks for the great video!
In what scenarios would the Anointed be the better leader choice over the Aspiring Champion? From an outsider, it seems like the Anointed would be better for throwing into a horde of melee models to survive longer thanks to Soul Feast, otherwise the Aspiring Champion is the better choice?
Minor thing, Chosen is 2 circle less to a minimum of 1, since it doesn't knock the characteristic down you get around the minimum 2 circle clause. Only really matters for if someone is trying to fallback and do an objective or if you give him the Trophy though since they physically can't leave trophy range.
EDIT: also the Khorne Mark says strike with one normal as if it were a crit, which I'm pretty sure works with most of the critical abilities in Legionaries since Chosen needs you to strike with critical damage and Butcher needs you to strike with a crit, but Balefire needs retained crits (doesn't work with him but he can't take Khorne anyway)
What weapon take on aspirant? I saw whole video and Im not sure if you talk about it :)
They said that basically all weapons are good except the tainted chainsword, but the favourite one is power fist
Great great work but I really think you discredited the other Tzeentch ploy, you roll a 6 on 3 dice 42% of the time and 35% with another fail.
This basically gives you a free save 1/3 of the time which makes you really durable. Any Tzeentch player should be playing both of these all the time against most teams.
Would you play the butcher into blooded aswell?
Typically no, too much good melee on the other side.
TIP: Delicious Agony is good vs Kommandos and their Just A Scrach ;)
@@robertchmielecki2580 their ;)
Firsties!