There is a difference between Jon and Mance's ideas of unity. Mance doesnt care about the north which is south of the wall, he only cares about uniting the wildlings. But Qhorin Halfhand trained Jon to unite both parts of the Wall. The blue flower on the Wall is a more appropriate representation of Jon's unity
Mance wants to save his people because he knows they will die if they stay north of the wall. When he negotiates with John he says let us come south of the wall we went to live or we will kill you all.
@@brendanfechter4889 His attitude towards wildlings changed during the time he took the new recruits to swear oath before the weirwood trees. In fact you can pinpoint the moment he saw wildlings as human beings. Before he knelt and prayed he argued with a wilding woman and wanted to leave that place as soon as possible. But while praying and listening to the new rangers saying the oath, specially "the realms of men" part, Ghost starts sniffing Jon (if I remember correctly), and briefly he wargs into Ghost and sees the wildlings from his eyes. He looks at the woman and her baby, old men, Wun Wun and all he saw was men. (I've recently re-read, so the text was similar). So I don't think whatever scheme he planned with Mance has anything to do with sympathizing with the wildlings. He even refused to seal the tunnel the whole book.
@@brendanfechter4889 If Arya is rescued, the North may flock to Stannis' banner. Stannis was running the show at the wall when it came to Mance. They got their own shit going between them. Stannis wants Arya stark rescued it serves his purpose, and he had the most strength at the wall.
His argument about “something his mother likes representing Jon is stupid” is a little challenged by the centuries (perhaps millennia) of heraldry in Westeros.
@@jordankristoff5406 I'm not saying she was, I'm saying the concept of something a parent liking representing a child isn't as insane as he is suggesting. At the core, I'm saying Jon identified as a Blue Rose is no different than Sansa or Bran being represented by a Wolf or Trout
@@VivanLaMNWA I wouldn't use the Blue rose to indentify Lyanna Stark, as there are lot more things about her in the books, then just "received a blue rose from Rhaegar"
Surely the Corpse with the grey smile on the prowl of a ship could just as well be Jon Connington, I think it fits well, he's brighteyed because he wants to fufill his promise to Rhaegar, Grey because Grey Scale, Smiling sadly because he knows he'll die but thankful for the chance at redemption, to serve the son where he failed the father. That's the way I saw it, Connington could maybe have a bigger role in WInds than we assume from his path in Dance.
Laz Low. Yes. It does seem highly likely these visions reference more than one individual. As Preston says the blue rose may refer to Mance as well as Jon.
Dany on her silver was the past, the flower in the wall was the future, is it hard to believe that the corpse on the ship was the present? The corpse could have been Balon Greyjoy, who already had someone trying to kill him, or Victarion leading the attack on the North, or the Ironborn in general being doomed to die, but that may end up being more complicated.
Amir Dibaei it’s funny. Both sides are attempting to answer the same questions, analyzing the same data and are more or less coming to the same conclusions but because they and by extension, the fandom, view this process through two very different lenses, people interpret them differently. But holy hell, PJ’s interpretation of Dany’s visions makes more sense than any other dream interpretation I’ve ever read.
you're forgetting the oldest trick of fortune telling, tell them something you know is going to happen so they'll believe you when you tell them something else.
Mel makes Stannis think that she killed 3 kings by burning the Leeches with Edric Storm's blood. But chances are she had already just seen their deaths in the fire and saw it as good opportunity to pull the wool over Stannis' eyes
The 3 ppl Stannis named were also the 3 most likely ppl to die. There was no way that the Lannisters or the Starks were going to let Balon Greyjoy live. Additionally, the most likely outcome of the war between the Starks and the Lannisters was that either Robb or Joffrey would die. Robb was the most consistently in danger (he actually rode into battle), but Joffrey was freaking mad - so it's entirely possible that he would be assassinated based on that alone. No one likes a mad king and Westeros has a precedent now for deposing and killing mad kings (see Aerys). And there's also the fact that there was no timeline or method of death associated with them when Stannis named them either. And if we look at all the factors involved in each person's death, they were killed by those that had reason to kill them (even Robb). And if we look at it that way, it's nothing more than pure coincidence that they died *after* Stannis named them and not before. Honestly for such a straight-laced and mostly rational person, I'm surprised Stannis actually believed it and didn't try to specify exactly how they would die or when. But maybe he wasn't anywhere near as skeptical of magic as he comes across in the books.
@@SadisticSenpai61 It's crazy how much Mel does with so little. The fire prophecy thing is awesome, but she's not the only one capable of pulling it off. Shadows babies are cool, but they seem to require some very specific situations. She seems to be really good with glamours as well. She's got talent, but she really amplifies peoples perception of her. She's real subtle, and won't hesitate to claim responsibility for anything that makes her look otherworldly.
@@catch22andys51 I know this is a reply to an old comment but Stannis is very, very clear that he doesn't actually believe that Mel burning the leeches killed the kings
The idea of unity in ASOIAF makes sense since this is an anti-war story, you have two groups who have fought each other for so long that they are now presented with a common threat and need to unite, or that the wall has done nothing but create anger and division between the north and the wildlings and it needs to come down (or just be breached like we see in the show) to foster unity and cooperation. This results in the story needing a hero who won't just kill all the bad guys and win but who will make peace and end (for a time at least) the cycle of violence- kind of like Neo in Matrix Revolutions. I think prophecy depends on the personality of the person who receives it. Cersei being incredibly narcissistic and not very intelligent - rather than reflecting on her life choices (treating Jaime like a sex toy and her brother Tyrion like the bane of her existence) sees prophecy as a threat to the life she has known and doubles down on the path she has set before her thus making it for her a self fulfilling prophecy, it's open for debate whether Maggie the Frog actually saw Cersei's fate or if she was just good at cold reading and saw a spoiled entitled brat who needed to be taken down a peg or two. Someone else like Jon or Dany if they saw a Prophecy of their doom might instead think "what do I need to change about myself to avoid it" kind of like Charles Dicken's Christmas Carol where Scrooge finally figures out he has to stop being a selfish greedy prick to avoid Tiny Tim's death and his own sad lonely demise, or separately Shakespeare's Julius Caesar when the latter think's he's in the clear when the Ides of March have come and nothing's happened only to be told by the soothsayer that the day isn't over yet and something can still happen, basically a "the devil is in the details" sort of thing.
seven hells PJ. this is your best work to date and one of reasons why ive always maintained that your are the best ASOIAF youtuber in all the realm. the seed of the lemon tree is strong. FOR PRESTOROS!
not saying that this is better than his previous series. just meant to say that the observations and connections made in this video are particularly brilliant. especially the part about the winter rose growing out of the crack in the wall. only Lord Preston, Knight of the lemon tree, Keeper of the red door, Speaker of glass candles, could make such an excellent assessment of its possible meaning.
I know this probably isn't how the series is going to progress, but I love the theory that all the events of Ice and Fir involving Jon, Dany, and Aegon/JonCon are just extensions of the Blackfyre Rebellion and the Bloodraven/Shiera Seastar/Bittersteel love triangle and Bloodraven is fighting a war that ended a century ago, but is starting back up (if you believe Aegon is a Blackfyre and Quaithe is Shiera or has some form of secret Targaryen ties.) It has its holes, but if you believe in the "the past comes back and repeats itself" aspect of the story, it makes perfect sense.
It's funny to see this intellectually sophisticated man making animations in the style my 7 yo cousin would. I specifically love the dagger one in the opening of the Killing Bran video 💜
From Wikipedia: "A blue flower (German: Blaue Blume) was a central symbol of inspiration for the Romanticism movement, and remains an enduring motif in Western art today. It stands for desire, love, and the metaphysical striving for the infinite and unreachable. It symbolizes hope and the beauty of things." GRRM knows about such tropes, the way he uses the blue rose i'll bet he hinted at this trope
@@akiramado9198 not really obtuse; it could just represent Dany's longing for romantic love since Drogo died, and that she might find it with someone who's near a wall of ice, or find it at a wall of ice.
Jon is definitely Lyanna and Rhaegars son though. That is pretty much confirmed at this point. So the blue rose vision has more than just one meaning for our story which makes it a very powerful vision indeed.
I‘m extremely pumped for new theory series. Its scope and impact are giving me strong Deeper Dorne and Minds of Wolves and Robins vibes. Very excited for the next pet!
I like the way you say your probably wrong about half of what you say. because regardless your theories are well thought out, consistant with back up and generally very interesting. Unlike other theorists your work usually make sense. I just dont care if your right or wrong its interesting. I have just finished watching all of your series and enjoyed each and everyone. I'm looking forward to your analysis of season 8 and the eventual books analysis which I sincerely hope you plan to do
I like the idea of Jon not being Lyana's son as the whole Jon being the chosen one to save the day born from ice and fire, too disney fairytale for GRRM. The only thing that holds me back though is when D+D spoke about pitching the show to George and he had them guess Jon's mother's identity, which they did and then made the show to be that way.
There is a third option you're missing about the "why send a prophecy?" question; It may be true that you can't change the prophecy, but you might change how you react to it. Say a character receive a vision that an army will kill everyone in a village. According to your take on prophecy, there is two possibilities, conformity and non-conformity; 1) Conformity: The character acts to make the prophecy happen. Maybe the village is enemy to him, so he wants it to get destroyed, and will work actively toward it; Perhaps he'll plant a rumor that there is gold in the village, so an army will raid it. 2) Non-Conformity: The character does not want the prophecy to happen. So he hires a few sellswords to defend the village. But the sellsword's presence ultimately end up attractive an army (that doesn't want armed forced around them) and they raid the village. Or (in a non-conformity trickery) the sellsword company ultimately raid the village themselves and kill everyone in there, for this or that reason. Those are the only 2 options if you go with conformity/non-conformity... But there is a third option: A reaction to an inevitable event. What if you know the village will be raided by this army, so you warn just 1 important person (a secret heir, your son, or yourself!) so that one person can escape and survive the slaughter? What if you tell your liege lord, and while he can't save the village (as it's prophecied to get destroyed) and his army get there too late... they get there in time to save *the next* village from that army, a village that would also have been raided if not for your reaction to the original prophecy? To put it in a practical scenario, say you have a vision of a god that tell you your house will burn. What can you do? You might try to cover your walls with water so it doesn't happen, to verify your electric cords to see if anything's wrong with them, to take all lighters/matches away from the house etc... But as it was a vision from the gods, it probably won't help, right? You could do all that, but in the end some arsonist will set fire to your house, or a flaming meteor will crash through it, something like that. You may not save the house... But you may save your family/yourself; If you do believe in the prophecy, your best move is not to try&save the house, because that's not happening... But you might take your family and move away from the house. Your family is more important than your house. So while the prophecy tells you of something that's terrible (losing your house) and inevitable... It may do it so you can prevent *something else* even more important from happening, i.e. your family dying in the house fire. The prophecies in ASOIAF could be like that; The characters might not be able to stop the prophecies, but they might prevent a consequence linked to the prophecy, by realizing it's inevitable, so they *save the family*, figuratively speaking.
I like the conformity kind of prophecy. Like in Warhammer 40k the Chaos Gods show Horus a vision of the grim dark future of the imperium of man, without showing him how it got that way. This in turn leads Horus to rebel against the God Emperor, his father, and create the future he feared.
Thanks, deep stuff indeed, as you said. Hope Nepal was fantastic, one day you could comment on your view of the countries you´ve visited and point things that attracted your attention. That would be an interesting perspective for sure.Take care!
4:02 hold the phone I don't think she told Jorah that. I always assumed that he jumped to the blue rose conclusion because it would be the only blue flower they know over at Westeros. Could be any blue rose...
Great breakdown. I always thought that the rose meant the Starks, as they are the only ones who grow them. The songs and references make so much sense for the unity of Starkfolk. I with Order of the Greenhand, N+A=J, making the Jon and Dany get together less creepy. I have always thought Jon was Ned's son, but only time will tell.
Lyanna's statue has a garland of pale blue roses, Eddard tells Robert that he brings Lyanna's statue flowers when he can as "Lyanna was ... fond of flowers." Eddard remembers the room where Lyanna died as "a room that smelled of blood and roses.", Rose petals spilled from Lyanna's palm as she died, "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature."-Lyanna Stark, Rhaegar placed a crown of winter roses, blue as frost, in Lyanna's lap, Lyanna "loved the scent of winter roses"-Eddard Stark, remembering "Promise me" Cersei telling Eddard how Robert hade whispered Lyanna's name on their wedding night immediately makes Ned think of pale blue roses, Eddard dreaming of the Tower of Joy sees: "A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death." when he hears Lyanna screaming his name, Theon Greyjoy dreams of a "slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore" that "could only be Lyanna.", Jon snow sees: "to the south the wall rose blue-white and glittering." (this one is a little silly, but I included it anyway), the World of Ice and Fire confirms that Rhaegar placed a garland of blue roses in Lyanna's lap, and goes on to say: "with that garland of pale blue roses, Rhaegar Targaryen had begun the dance that would rip the Seven Kingdoms apart, bring about his own death and thousands more, and put a welcome new king on the Iron Throne." when describing the end of the Targaryen Dynasty, and the inevitable descent into civil war, something you might say is a chink in the armour of the realm of men, if Jon is Lyanna's son that adds further significance since he is in the Night's Watch at the Wall, and growing into a man with the Wildlings, and is trying to fill the air with the sweetness of unity, or perhaps the sweet stench of corpses. But Loras wears blue forget-me-nots on his armour once... And Bael the Bard's song has a blue winter rose in it... We hear the story of Bael 2 chapters after Daenerys IV, where the prophecy is told, so that's obviously the correct interpretation, never mind that 4 chapters after that we get Theon's dream: "The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna."... That association is ludicrous, obviously pale blue winter roses has nooothing to do with Lyanna Stark...
@groglas I agree that Lyanna is most often associated with Winter roses, but its more generally associated with a daughter of Winterfell. Its strange that Daenerys is the one having these visions and for all the R+L=J circle-jerking people don't really consider that Dany is the metaphorical Winter rose. She even has a vision of Rhaegar before the Blue Rose in the Wall where Rhaegar looks right at her and says "There must be one more… The dragon has three heads". This is why Ned thinks about broken promises in the Black cells, he protected Dany as best he could by disguising her as a Dayne but he couldn't personally assure her safety. It also fits with Barristan's thoughts about Ashara "looking at Stark" and the rumours of her having a stillborn daughter. Jon repeatedly has dreams of the crypts that are extremely puzzling, but is never really associated with blue roses. He claims he doesn't belong there because he's not a Stark but he is nonetheless compelled to continue. Were he Rhaegar's son he really wouldn't belong there, but if he were Brandon's son he would be the (de facto if not de jure) most-senior male-line Stark and thus would have a place in the crypts. We know from Edric Storm that being a bastard is just a social construct and they nonetheless carry their parents legacy in their blood. This also fits with Catelyn's fears about Jon usurping her children's place in the line of succession as if he were legitimised he would arguably have come before Ned in succession. This is why Ned feels guilt when he thinks about Jon. Maybe I'm just a natural contrarian but I've been in the camp of B+A=J and R+L=D for many years. I think Dany was born at the Tower of Joy and Jon was born at Starfall and there was a baby-swap. The House with the Red Door will be revealed to be High Hermitage, the seat of House Dayne's cadet branch, which is fittingly located in the Red Mountains of Dorne, where Lemon trees can grow.
@@parastroika2393 Definitely a possibility, the two most glaring issues for me is would Ashara really have killed herself and left her child behind? If she was Wylla, where is she? And secondly wouldn't the Daynes want to keep Dany safe? Was she stolen or sold? There are problems with both explanations. But I am open to the idea, my original comment was mainly to point out that GRRM really wants us to associate blue winter roses with Lyanna, Preston's argument that Loras is just as likely, and that the vision can only refer to Bael is disingenuous. Objectively Lyanna is the most associated with sweet smelling blue winter roses, it could be slight of hand or an outright bluff, but what it is not, is debatable.
@@groglas Yeah I started typing and got a bit carried away in my head-canon tbh. I have no idea about Ashara but the fact that her body was never found and there's no first-hand witnesses to her jumping off the Palestone Sword seems like a smoking gun that she's still alive somewhere under a false identity, whether she's Quaithe/Septa Lemore/Jyana Reed etc. One thing for sure is that Dany's memories are not what she thinks they are. I read a theory that Dany was kidnapped/carried off by slavers at a young age and sold to a Tyroshi pleasure house operator and then sold to Illyrio, who (when she came of age and with Viserys vouching for her identity) passed her off as a Targaryen to Khal Drogo without knowing she actually was one. That has an almost cosmic ironic to it that sounds exactly like something GRRM would write.
@@parastroika2393 Jyana Reed... So Lyanna with a backwards L? And Meera is of an age with Jon, and Dany, the plot thickens. Totally, and the "Usurper's hired knives" could be Dayne men, not out to kill Viserys but to rescue Dany.
@@groglas Assuming Viserys is being genuine about men coming after them I would say its not impossible. The discussion the small council has about assassinating Dany in AGoT implies they've never sent anyone after her before. We don't know for sure when Lord Dayne died (sometime between 286-295) but presumably he was the one who arranged for his sister Allyria to marry Beric Dondarrion and for his son Edric to be fostered by him. Speculation but it may have been Lord Dayne's death that caused all of the drama at the House with the Red Door, the servants there no longer had a benefactor that was guaranteed to support them so they panicked and took off. If Dany was around 5 when this happened that is right in the middle of the range of time in which he died. We don't even know his name, but if it was Willem Dayne, then we have a rational explanation for the discrepancies in Dany's memories about Willem Darry.
Mayhaps the visions are choices: the silver represents choosing the past (one for death); Victarion represents the present and what will be her future if she continues to be passive (one for life); the blue rose in a wall of ice represents a future she can choose for herself (one to love).
“Filling the air with sweetness” Sweetness is often used in a sarcastic way in the world of ice and fire. Often used to disguise something horrible. Tyrion often calls Cersei “sweet sister” The implication is that Dany will fall in love with Jon, but it will quickly turn sour when it is discovered he has a better claim to the throne
Another interpretation of the vision is the arrival of Stannis to the wall. Stannis is mostly supported by the Florents, who’s Sigil is ... blue flowers.
I love your conclusion about prophecy and I completely agree. Btw, in the most famous story about prophecy that I can think of, that of Oedipus, prophecy is given by the gods to both Oedipus and his father Laius, and it is the direct cause of their actions, which in turn fulfill the prophecy. The gods do this to punish Laius for hybris, and in this case prophecy isn't a warning, but a trap.
14:00 a vision could have purpose EVEN IF it is unchangeable. If you know that X cannot be changed, you will not waste effort trying to change X. If you know X will happen, you can base your plans around X happening.
I would agree with the blue rose thing being about unity, BUT I think the rose just representing Jon through Lyanna makes that work too because he learns about and tries to achieve unity and it causes a rift. Although it may be that there are multiple things that give the meaning to the rose. As for prophecy... the conformity through non-conformity thing rings very true to me. Martin has said before that in his world the more you struggle to avoid a prophecy the more you tend to bring it about. So an actor who knew that could use that to manipulate people. As for Bloodraven's goals... I don't know, but I would hazard to guess that whatever his goals are they're opposite somehow to whatever Aegon and the Golden Company will do, want to do, etc. It seems too great a parallel to the Bloodraven-Bittersteel conflict from the past for Martin not to use it, imo. But that's just a guess.
Oh also, rewatching this "Why would the blue flower be a symbol of Lyanna's child because she liked it?" Well, because it's Rheagar who gave it to her. It's how they (at least publically) began their "relationship" at least on a symbollic level. So it would certainly make sense for Jon, the product of that relationship, to be represented by that. But again, it's probably the case that the blue winter roses have multiple symbollic meanings in the story.
This playlist is so refreshing. It's a welcome respite from the dogmatic RLJ crowd, who ignores major evidence that Jon's dad is anyone but Rhaegar. Seriously, there is nothing. to. that. theory. In genereal, Preston, I find yout take on these books to be one of the most rational by far. Thank you for all that you do.
Hi Preston, do you have any reason why the 3rd vision would be so much more abstract than the other two? It's always kind of bugged me; images of things that literally happened vs a metaphorical flower that can be be teased out into several videos of analysis. Like it could as easily have been, I don't know, 'a man all in black smiled at a wildling in the shadow of a wall of ice', or the corpse one could have been 'a kraken floated in a storm-tossed sea, twisting its tentacles towards an unsuspecting ship'. The point is, why the switch? Thanks x
Hey Preston this was a great video as always and I know I’m not a Patreon but are you going to do another video of History Channel show Knightfall. I just saw the second season trailer and I’m trying to compose myself but ....... MARK HAMILL is in it and my head just blown off. Thanks
Shot in the dark, but could GRRM be referencing Frost again? While I couldn't find anything specifically about roses, some of his bleaker work like "Design" does reference flowers that are supposed to be blue, as well as question the entire concept of benevolent deity. It's only a half formed thought, but I'm a little rusty on my Frost.
Not a shot in the dark at all! A lot of this is in "The Generations of Men" check it out. And much more Frost. "Mending Wall" ("Something there is that does not love a wall," etc.).
Conor, thank you! While I knew "The Mending Wall," I'd never read "Generations" until now. While we'll have to see where Preston is going with this series to see how it applies here, it's hard to imagine that GRRM wasn't referencing this poem. Especially considering he's a fan of Frost. Between the surname of Stark and the references to family on the mother's side versus the father's, it would be astoundingly odd if it wasn't.
@@poursperfectpints I just read "Design." So much to it. So much to it! Haha. Thanks for the recommendation. I find that, especially with poetry, the best thing to do is to read it once or twice, then walk away from it (turn the analytical mind off) and then when I return to it, the connections develop (the depth starts to expose itself). The first time I read "The Generations of Men", it seemed like the references were superficial. When I returned to it, things jumped out of the page at me! I don't think any single reference contains all the answers to the mysteries of ASOIAF, but there are so many valid sources of inspiration. This story is basically George's love song to the world: history, art, literature, nature, anthropology, science...basically every theory that identifies one of these connections is valid. It's like Joseph Campbell's "Monomyth" where the symbol is the point, not the source (because the symbol taps into a universal truth, so it makes sense that more than one culture would have a representation of that truth).
I think that the blue rose *might* represent Lyanna and therefore Jon but in a lesser sense. I thought on my first read that it is a reminder of the Bael the Bard story, which Rhaegar was emulating, but the rose itself carries a deeper meaning. It is unity and alliance and how love conquers hate. The reason that Rhaegar and Lyanna is a tragedy is that normally the union of two houses would be union and love and alliance and peace but it caused so much war and death including that of the lovers as well. The whole war was just a tragedy that caused death but helped nothing: Rhaegar was already decided on moving against Aerys, so his death represents the death of a dream the death of peace. Robert's reign lead to an uneasy peace and bankruptcy for the realm. Now Jon, maybe being born of that strife, wanting peace etc. might be a good symbol for the peace that was lost with Rhaegar. He too chose love over duty and chose to be hated by his brothers to unite the realms of men, i. e. the Seven Kingdoms and the Wildlings. I would not interpret the clues in a way that makes Jon Rhaegar's son butthematically it would not be a bad fit.
Multiple choice voting time! The culprit is: a.) Quaithe; b.) Petyr Baelish; c.) The Kindly Man; d.) Bloodraven; e.) Marwyn; f.) Children Of The Forest; g.) The Shrouded Lord.
The prophecy very well may be predictive as well as manipulative if the wirewood net is a collective consciousness which could act like a super computer. Bloodraven explicitly says he can't change the past, but changing the future is another thing.
I’m a little disappointed that this doesn’t seem to be the 50 part series dedicated to Mormont’s Raven. Misleading Ser Preston, misleading indeed.
There is a difference between Jon and Mance's ideas of unity. Mance doesnt care about the north which is south of the wall, he only cares about uniting the wildlings. But Qhorin Halfhand trained Jon to unite both parts of the Wall. The blue flower on the Wall is a more appropriate representation of Jon's unity
Mance wants to save his people because he knows they will die if they stay north of the wall. When he negotiates with John he says let us come south of the wall we went to live or we will kill you all.
Yeah, Mance is waging a war. Jon just avoided one. So Jon's idea fits more
@@brendanfechter4889 His attitude towards wildlings changed during the time he took the new recruits to swear oath before the weirwood trees. In fact you can pinpoint the moment he saw wildlings as human beings. Before he knelt and prayed he argued with a wilding woman and wanted to leave that place as soon as possible. But while praying and listening to the new rangers saying the oath, specially "the realms of men" part, Ghost starts sniffing Jon (if I remember correctly), and briefly he wargs into Ghost and sees the wildlings from his eyes. He looks at the woman and her baby, old men, Wun Wun and all he saw was men. (I've recently re-read, so the text was similar).
So I don't think whatever scheme he planned with Mance has anything to do with sympathizing with the wildlings. He even refused to seal the tunnel the whole book.
@@brendanfechter4889 remember at the time he was under the control of Mel.
@@brendanfechter4889 If Arya is rescued, the North may flock to Stannis' banner. Stannis was running the show at the wall when it came to Mance. They got their own shit going between them. Stannis wants Arya stark rescued it serves his purpose, and he had the most strength at the wall.
I think I can literally hear you rolling your eyes when mentioning Lyanna and the Blue Rose
His argument about “something his mother likes representing Jon is stupid” is a little challenged by the centuries (perhaps millennia) of heraldry in Westeros.
@@VivanLaMNWA heraldry would be a dragon in that case. Jon is never associated with dragons.
@@VivanLaMNWA how was Lyanna associated to blue rose through heraldry?
@@jordankristoff5406 I'm not saying she was, I'm saying the concept of something a parent liking representing a child isn't as insane as he is suggesting. At the core, I'm saying Jon identified as a Blue Rose is no different than Sansa or Bran being represented by a Wolf or Trout
@@VivanLaMNWA I wouldn't use the Blue rose to indentify Lyanna Stark, as there are lot more things about her in the books, then just "received a blue rose from Rhaegar"
For so many of us, if it weren't for Preston, ASOIAF would just be some book we kinda sorta liked years ago. Thanks man
asoiaf isn't a book you sot, and it's plenty good without Preston's opinions 😉
Surely the Corpse with the grey smile on the prowl of a ship could just as well be Jon Connington, I think it fits well, he's brighteyed because he wants to fufill his promise to Rhaegar, Grey because Grey Scale, Smiling sadly because he knows he'll die but thankful for the chance at redemption, to serve the son where he failed the father.
That's the way I saw it, Connington could maybe have a bigger role in WInds than we assume from his path in Dance.
Laz Low.
Yes. It does seem highly likely these visions reference more than one individual. As Preston says the blue rose may refer to Mance as well as Jon.
Dany on her silver was the past, the flower in the wall was the future, is it hard to believe that the corpse on the ship was the present? The corpse could have been Balon Greyjoy, who already had someone trying to kill him, or Victarion leading the attack on the North, or the Ironborn in general being doomed to die, but that may end up being more complicated.
yo Preston, is the line "grey lips smiling sadly" just a fancy way of saying the name GreyJoy
oh that's some preston-level of overanalyzing
Correct, Preston actually said it in one of the prepping for winter Victarion chapters.
Amir Dibaei it’s funny. Both sides are attempting to answer the same questions, analyzing the same data and are more or less coming to the same conclusions but because they and by extension, the fandom, view this process through two very different lenses, people interpret them differently. But holy hell, PJ’s interpretation of Dany’s visions makes more sense than any other dream interpretation I’ve ever read.
Theon did have a horse named Smiler too, think he got burned.
@@bel8122 nah I believe it means jon con sailing with greyscale
you're forgetting the oldest trick of fortune telling, tell them something you know is going to happen so they'll believe you when you tell them something else.
You are correct. Trust is a biggy. Definitely going on with Bran.
Mel makes Stannis think that she killed 3 kings by burning the Leeches with Edric Storm's blood. But chances are she had already just seen their deaths in the fire and saw it as good opportunity to pull the wool over Stannis' eyes
The 3 ppl Stannis named were also the 3 most likely ppl to die. There was no way that the Lannisters or the Starks were going to let Balon Greyjoy live. Additionally, the most likely outcome of the war between the Starks and the Lannisters was that either Robb or Joffrey would die. Robb was the most consistently in danger (he actually rode into battle), but Joffrey was freaking mad - so it's entirely possible that he would be assassinated based on that alone. No one likes a mad king and Westeros has a precedent now for deposing and killing mad kings (see Aerys).
And there's also the fact that there was no timeline or method of death associated with them when Stannis named them either. And if we look at all the factors involved in each person's death, they were killed by those that had reason to kill them (even Robb). And if we look at it that way, it's nothing more than pure coincidence that they died *after* Stannis named them and not before.
Honestly for such a straight-laced and mostly rational person, I'm surprised Stannis actually believed it and didn't try to specify exactly how they would die or when. But maybe he wasn't anywhere near as skeptical of magic as he comes across in the books.
@@SadisticSenpai61 It's crazy how much Mel does with so little. The fire prophecy thing is awesome, but she's not the only one capable of pulling it off. Shadows babies are cool, but they seem to require some very specific situations. She seems to be really good with glamours as well. She's got talent, but she really amplifies peoples perception of her. She's real subtle, and won't hesitate to claim responsibility for anything that makes her look otherworldly.
@@catch22andys51 I know this is a reply to an old comment but Stannis is very, very clear that he doesn't actually believe that Mel burning the leeches killed the kings
First for the CORN CORN CORN CONSPIRACIES
FIFY ^cornspiracies
@@Cheesusful idk CORN CORN CORNspiracies
@@eversor10 They don't have maize corn, as it's a new world crop. So what exactly is it?
@@eversor10 or was that too corny?
@@Cheesusful ayyy lmao
Holy shit this came at the perfect time. Thank you Preston! Your long-form series are so comfy they really help my depression.
@Graig Simmonette it's funny you say that. Minds of Wolves and Robins puts me in the weirdest mood
@Graig Simmonette I can't. There is a weird picture of Robin in some of those videos that always gives me the creeps
I watch them until i fall asleep
Used his vids in some dark times also
"We're gonna tear down this wall and the Seven Kingdoms are going to pay for it, believe me." - King Beyond-the-Wall Dontos Trump.
stfu
You are definitely one of the best out here in the land of UA-cam
The idea of unity in ASOIAF makes sense since this is an anti-war story, you have two groups who have fought each other for so long that they are now presented with a common threat and need to unite, or that the wall has done nothing but create anger and division between the north and the wildlings and it needs to come down (or just be breached like we see in the show) to foster unity and cooperation. This results in the story needing a hero who won't just kill all the bad guys and win but who will make peace and end (for a time at least) the cycle of violence- kind of like Neo in Matrix Revolutions. I think prophecy depends on the personality of the person who receives it. Cersei being incredibly narcissistic and not very intelligent - rather than reflecting on her life choices (treating Jaime like a sex toy and her brother Tyrion like the bane of her existence) sees prophecy as a threat to the life she has known and doubles down on the path she has set before her thus making it for her a self fulfilling prophecy, it's open for debate whether Maggie the Frog actually saw Cersei's fate or if she was just good at cold reading and saw a spoiled entitled brat who needed to be taken down a peg or two. Someone else like Jon or Dany if they saw a Prophecy of their doom might instead think "what do I need to change about myself to avoid it" kind of like Charles Dicken's Christmas Carol where Scrooge finally figures out he has to stop being a selfish greedy prick to avoid Tiny Tim's death and his own sad lonely demise, or separately Shakespeare's Julius Caesar when the latter think's he's in the clear when the Ides of March have come and nothing's happened only to be told by the soothsayer that the day isn't over yet and something can still happen, basically a "the devil is in the details" sort of thing.
It's been too long without a Preston video.
There was one last week.
I don't even care about Game of Thrones or Westworld anymore. I still follow Preston's deepest lore videos with unabated magic
@@noaccount4 That´s my reason to put PJ in my little Parnasssus of interesting people. And btw...
Gylbert King!!
seven hells PJ. this is your best work to date and one of reasons why ive always maintained that your are the best ASOIAF youtuber in all the realm. the seed of the lemon tree is strong. FOR PRESTOROS!
It is known..
aye itis
don't wanna argue you here, but the genetics of dragons video series is delightful, big, but definitely worth the while.
not saying that this is better than his previous series. just meant to say that the observations and connections made in this video are particularly brilliant. especially the part about the winter rose growing out of the crack in the wall. only Lord Preston, Knight of the lemon tree, Keeper of the red door, Speaker of glass candles, could make such an excellent assessment of its possible meaning.
The perfect way to relax after oiling my sword of morning
I read this comment and was like "who would ever comment something like this" but then I read your username and now I understand
Relatable
sword or dagger same thing right ?
@@bel8122
I think you must be a stranger in this part (of UA-cam).
@@alanpennie8013 I'm looking forward for the day when things like this won't surprise me anymore
I know this probably isn't how the series is going to progress, but I love the theory that all the events of Ice and Fir involving Jon, Dany, and Aegon/JonCon are just extensions of the Blackfyre Rebellion and the Bloodraven/Shiera Seastar/Bittersteel love triangle and Bloodraven is fighting a war that ended a century ago, but is starting back up (if you believe Aegon is a Blackfyre and Quaithe is Shiera or has some form of secret Targaryen ties.)
It has its holes, but if you believe in the "the past comes back and repeats itself" aspect of the story, it makes perfect sense.
8:25 those animations are just great man, I sit here for like 10 Minute laughing about them!
It's funny to see this intellectually sophisticated man making animations in the style my 7 yo cousin would. I specifically love the dagger one in the opening of the Killing Bran video 💜
From Wikipedia: "A blue flower (German: Blaue Blume) was a central symbol of inspiration for the Romanticism movement, and remains an enduring motif in Western art today. It stands for desire, love, and the metaphysical striving for the infinite and unreachable. It symbolizes hope and the beauty of things."
GRRM knows about such tropes, the way he uses the blue rose i'll bet he hinted at this trope
Yep.
Nice, but you need to find its metaphore inside the story. A symbol of romantacism in our worldbis extremely obtuse in this situation
@@akiramado9198 not really obtuse; it could just represent Dany's longing for romantic love since Drogo died, and that she might find it with someone who's near a wall of ice, or find it at a wall of ice.
I had a vision of a long and insightful series. *CONFORMITY*
But did that make sense) you want to watch it or make you not want to watch it?
Never clicked anything faster in my life
Me too 😹
I am so anxious to see where this is going that I bet I'm even faster next rime
To Preston from Jade.... your channel rox! Long time listener, first time caller. Thanks for your intelligence and emotional values. Have a nice day.
I love this take on the blue rose, it gives it so much more meaning.
Jon is definitely Lyanna and Rhaegars son though. That is pretty much confirmed at this point. So the blue rose vision has more than just one meaning for our story which makes it a very powerful vision indeed.
Deceptively self fulfilling prophecy definitely brought Cersei to mind. Nice addition!
From impatient nonpatreons such as myself...
FINALLY!!!
Was it on Patreon?
I support, but didn’t see anything.
Maybe I just overlooked it
@@MrVonFrom idk i just hated waiting 🙉
It brightens up my day every time one of your book analysis videos pops up. Hero.
I‘m extremely pumped for new theory series. Its scope and impact are giving me strong Deeper Dorne and Minds of Wolves and Robins vibes. Very excited for the next pet!
Great video, man! The endgame and overall picture stuff is always the most interesting. Keep going
I like the way you say your probably wrong about half of what you say. because regardless your theories are well thought out, consistant with back up and generally very interesting. Unlike other theorists your work usually make sense. I just dont care if your right or wrong its interesting. I have just finished watching all of your series and enjoyed each and everyone. I'm looking forward to your analysis of season 8 and the eventual books analysis which I sincerely hope you plan to do
I like the idea of Jon not being Lyana's son as the whole Jon being the chosen one to save the day born from ice and fire, too disney fairytale for GRRM. The only thing that holds me back though is when D+D spoke about pitching the show to George and he had them guess Jon's mother's identity, which they did and then made the show to be that way.
There is a third option you're missing about the "why send a prophecy?" question; It may be true that you can't change the prophecy, but you might change how you react to it.
Say a character receive a vision that an army will kill everyone in a village.
According to your take on prophecy, there is two possibilities, conformity and non-conformity;
1) Conformity: The character acts to make the prophecy happen. Maybe the village is enemy to him, so he wants it to get destroyed, and will work actively toward it; Perhaps he'll plant a rumor that there is gold in the village, so an army will raid it.
2) Non-Conformity: The character does not want the prophecy to happen. So he hires a few sellswords to defend the village. But the sellsword's presence ultimately end up attractive an army (that doesn't want armed forced around them) and they raid the village. Or (in a non-conformity trickery) the sellsword company ultimately raid the village themselves and kill everyone in there, for this or that reason.
Those are the only 2 options if you go with conformity/non-conformity...
But there is a third option: A reaction to an inevitable event.
What if you know the village will be raided by this army, so you warn just 1 important person (a secret heir, your son, or yourself!) so that one person can escape and survive the slaughter?
What if you tell your liege lord, and while he can't save the village (as it's prophecied to get destroyed) and his army get there too late... they get there in time to save *the next* village from that army, a village that would also have been raided if not for your reaction to the original prophecy?
To put it in a practical scenario, say you have a vision of a god that tell you your house will burn. What can you do? You might try to cover your walls with water so it doesn't happen, to verify your electric cords to see if anything's wrong with them, to take all lighters/matches away from the house etc... But as it was a vision from the gods, it probably won't help, right? You could do all that, but in the end some arsonist will set fire to your house, or a flaming meteor will crash through it, something like that.
You may not save the house... But you may save your family/yourself; If you do believe in the prophecy, your best move is not to try&save the house, because that's not happening... But you might take your family and move away from the house. Your family is more important than your house.
So while the prophecy tells you of something that's terrible (losing your house) and inevitable... It may do it so you can prevent *something else* even more important from happening, i.e. your family dying in the house fire.
The prophecies in ASOIAF could be like that; The characters might not be able to stop the prophecies, but they might prevent a consequence linked to the prophecy, by realizing it's inevitable, so they *save the family*, figuratively speaking.
newp gaston The Targaryens fleeing to Dragonstone is an example
That's an interesting idea
Very good point
Finally I've been waiting for you to cover dany's Visions for 3 years
I like the conformity kind of prophecy. Like in Warhammer 40k the Chaos Gods show Horus a vision of the grim dark future of the imperium of man, without showing him how it got that way. This in turn leads Horus to rebel against the God Emperor, his father, and create the future he feared.
This is what corpse worshippers really believe.
The old gods have finally answered my prayers.
I’ve been rewatching Preston videos with my GF to hold me over for this🙏🙏🙏
Been excited for this one, but I have to say you really blue balled me with the ending.
"Something there is that doesn't love a Wall."
There you go, anyone wanting a quote from a Robert Frost poem that isn't Fire and Ice
So i found part 5 today and figured I should look up the other 4 parts based on the comments. I look forward to this journey
Thanks, deep stuff indeed, as you said. Hope Nepal was fantastic, one day you could comment on your view of the countries you´ve visited and point things that attracted your attention. That would be an interesting perspective for sure.Take care!
It‘s about time, my boys!
Preston is back to make love to my ears once again
Preston you should do a series where you explore all the dreams, visions and prophecies in the story. Love your content bro keep it up.
Preston releasing this video series gives me hope that TWOW will be out one day as well
4:02 hold the phone I don't think she told Jorah that. I always assumed that he jumped to the blue rose conclusion because it would be the only blue flower they know over at Westeros. Could be any blue rose...
A new PJ video, its like finding a $20 in your coat pocket!
Thank you Preston ❤️ Welcome back to the USA mad house. Hope you have found a new couch!
Not sure if anyone's mentioned this, but the Corpse at the Prow is pretty simple - It's Aeron Damphair in the Forsaken chapters of WoW.
The man
The myth
The legend of Gin FOOKIN ALLEY
LORD PRESTON is back
The point is to lead them on the path they are meant to follow and prepare them. They Can change the outcome. That's just more a warning
Great breakdown. I always thought that the rose meant the Starks, as they are the only ones who grow them. The songs and references make so much sense for the unity of Starkfolk. I with Order of the Greenhand, N+A=J, making the Jon and Dany get together less creepy. I have always thought Jon was Ned's son, but only time will tell.
Lyanna's statue has a garland of pale blue roses, Eddard tells Robert that he brings Lyanna's statue flowers when he can as "Lyanna was ... fond of flowers." Eddard remembers the room where Lyanna died as "a room that smelled of blood and roses.", Rose petals spilled from Lyanna's palm as she died, "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature."-Lyanna Stark, Rhaegar placed a crown of winter roses, blue as frost, in Lyanna's lap, Lyanna "loved the scent of winter roses"-Eddard Stark, remembering "Promise me" Cersei telling Eddard how Robert hade whispered Lyanna's name on their wedding night immediately makes Ned think of pale blue roses, Eddard dreaming of the Tower of Joy sees: "A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death." when he hears Lyanna screaming his name, Theon Greyjoy dreams of a "slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore" that "could only be Lyanna.", Jon snow sees: "to the south the wall rose blue-white and glittering." (this one is a little silly, but I included it anyway), the World of Ice and Fire confirms that Rhaegar placed a garland of blue roses in Lyanna's lap, and goes on to say: "with that garland of pale blue roses, Rhaegar Targaryen had begun the dance that would rip the Seven Kingdoms apart, bring about his own death and thousands more, and put a welcome new king on the Iron Throne." when describing the end of the Targaryen Dynasty, and the inevitable descent into civil war, something you might say is a chink in the armour of the realm of men, if Jon is Lyanna's son that adds further significance since he is in the Night's Watch at the Wall, and growing into a man with the Wildlings, and is trying to fill the air with the sweetness of unity, or perhaps the sweet stench of corpses. But Loras wears blue forget-me-nots on his armour once... And Bael the Bard's song has a blue winter rose in it... We hear the story of Bael 2 chapters after Daenerys IV, where the prophecy is told, so that's obviously the correct interpretation, never mind that 4 chapters after that we get Theon's dream: "The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna."... That association is ludicrous, obviously pale blue winter roses has nooothing to do with Lyanna Stark...
@groglas
I agree that Lyanna is most often associated with Winter roses, but its more generally associated with a daughter of Winterfell. Its strange that Daenerys is the one having these visions and for all the R+L=J circle-jerking people don't really consider that Dany is the metaphorical Winter rose. She even has a vision of Rhaegar before the Blue Rose in the Wall where Rhaegar looks right at her and says "There must be one more… The dragon has three heads". This is why Ned thinks about broken promises in the Black cells, he protected Dany as best he could by disguising her as a Dayne but he couldn't personally assure her safety. It also fits with Barristan's thoughts about Ashara "looking at Stark" and the rumours of her having a stillborn daughter.
Jon repeatedly has dreams of the crypts that are extremely puzzling, but is never really associated with blue roses. He claims he doesn't belong there because he's not a Stark but he is nonetheless compelled to continue. Were he Rhaegar's son he really wouldn't belong there, but if he were Brandon's son he would be the (de facto if not de jure) most-senior male-line Stark and thus would have a place in the crypts. We know from Edric Storm that being a bastard is just a social construct and they nonetheless carry their parents legacy in their blood. This also fits with Catelyn's fears about Jon usurping her children's place in the line of succession as if he were legitimised he would arguably have come before Ned in succession. This is why Ned feels guilt when he thinks about Jon.
Maybe I'm just a natural contrarian but I've been in the camp of B+A=J and R+L=D for many years. I think Dany was born at the Tower of Joy and Jon was born at Starfall and there was a baby-swap. The House with the Red Door will be revealed to be High Hermitage, the seat of House Dayne's cadet branch, which is fittingly located in the Red Mountains of Dorne, where Lemon trees can grow.
@@parastroika2393 Definitely a possibility, the two most glaring issues for me is would Ashara really have killed herself and left her child behind? If she was Wylla, where is she? And secondly wouldn't the Daynes want to keep Dany safe? Was she stolen or sold? There are problems with both explanations. But I am open to the idea, my original comment was mainly to point out that GRRM really wants us to associate blue winter roses with Lyanna, Preston's argument that Loras is just as likely, and that the vision can only refer to Bael is disingenuous. Objectively Lyanna is the most associated with sweet smelling blue winter roses, it could be slight of hand or an outright bluff, but what it is not, is debatable.
@@groglas Yeah I started typing and got a bit carried away in my head-canon tbh.
I have no idea about Ashara but the fact that her body was never found and there's no first-hand witnesses to her jumping off the Palestone Sword seems like a smoking gun that she's still alive somewhere under a false identity, whether she's Quaithe/Septa Lemore/Jyana Reed etc. One thing for sure is that Dany's memories are not what she thinks they are.
I read a theory that Dany was kidnapped/carried off by slavers at a young age and sold to a Tyroshi pleasure house operator and then sold to Illyrio, who (when she came of age and with Viserys vouching for her identity) passed her off as a Targaryen to Khal Drogo without knowing she actually was one. That has an almost cosmic ironic to it that sounds exactly like something GRRM would write.
@@parastroika2393 Jyana Reed... So Lyanna with a backwards L? And Meera is of an age with Jon, and Dany, the plot thickens.
Totally, and the "Usurper's hired knives" could be Dayne men, not out to kill Viserys but to rescue Dany.
@@groglas Assuming Viserys is being genuine about men coming after them I would say its not impossible. The discussion the small council has about assassinating Dany in AGoT implies they've never sent anyone after her before.
We don't know for sure when Lord Dayne died (sometime between 286-295) but presumably he was the one who arranged for his sister Allyria to marry Beric Dondarrion and for his son Edric to be fostered by him.
Speculation but it may have been Lord Dayne's death that caused all of the drama at the House with the Red Door, the servants there no longer had a benefactor that was guaranteed to support them so they panicked and took off. If Dany was around 5 when this happened that is right in the middle of the range of time in which he died. We don't even know his name, but if it was Willem Dayne, then we have a rational explanation for the discrepancies in Dany's memories about Willem Darry.
"Someone wery powerfull is watching a jon story" and that is ... GRR Martin.
I watched through all the back log and now I have to wait for more Preston.
Daenerys dreams of a blue rose because it symbolizes her mother Lyana Stark. Sometimes she dreams of her father Rhegar. R+L=D
We’re in the endgame now....
Hahah jk WoW isn’t coming out anything soon
Chad/Sandra 2020!
At least we have a new Avengers movie to look forward to
Daggers for Chad
Lets hope George didnt release the books waiting the show to end ;(
@@ChristianAuditore14Search your feelings. You know it in your heart that this isn't true.
Saturday... Complete! Thanx PJ!!
Good job Mr Preston! Eager for that mercy chapter
Mayhaps the visions are choices: the silver represents choosing the past (one for death); Victarion represents the present and what will be her future if she continues to be passive (one for life); the blue rose in a wall of ice represents a future she can choose for herself (one to love).
IM SO HAPPY RIGHT NOW!
yesss!!! im more excited about this series than the New got season...
So serious Preston, nice that you scrap the barrel of the given material to give us some theories. love it.
Happy Valentine's day PJ!
They're more often misunderstood or misinterpreted and that's where the problems come in. Hindsight usually explains all. What's meant to be will be.
I can’t wait to see how the Others factor into this
“Filling the air with sweetness”
Sweetness is often used in a sarcastic way in the world of ice and fire. Often used to disguise something horrible. Tyrion often calls Cersei “sweet sister”
The implication is that Dany will fall in love with Jon, but it will quickly turn sour when it is discovered he has a better claim to the throne
Another interpretation of the vision is the arrival of Stannis to the wall.
Stannis is mostly supported by the Florents, who’s Sigil is ... blue flowers.
What's your reason for discounting The Damphair at the prow of the Silence as the man in the vision. I'm interested?
Christmas came EARLY this year :)
I love your conclusion about prophecy and I completely agree. Btw, in the most famous story about prophecy that I can think of, that of Oedipus, prophecy is given by the gods to both Oedipus and his father Laius, and it is the direct cause of their actions, which in turn fulfill the prophecy. The gods do this to punish Laius for hybris, and in this case prophecy isn't a warning, but a trap.
I can't wait to see where this is going!
The best two ASOIAF channels are
Preston for theories
CivilizationEx for lore and history.
14:00 a vision could have purpose EVEN IF it is unchangeable.
If you know that X cannot be changed, you will not waste effort trying to change X.
If you know X will happen, you can base your plans around X happening.
I feel like the vision of the dead man in the prowl it's about Aeron tied there to die, by Euron. It fits so much better.
Preston, you should check out Disputed Lands' theory video on Shade of the Evening, it seems to connect to some of the ideas you've put forward before
I would agree with the blue rose thing being about unity, BUT I think the rose just representing Jon through Lyanna makes that work too because he learns about and tries to achieve unity and it causes a rift. Although it may be that there are multiple things that give the meaning to the rose. As for prophecy... the conformity through non-conformity thing rings very true to me. Martin has said before that in his world the more you struggle to avoid a prophecy the more you tend to bring it about. So an actor who knew that could use that to manipulate people. As for Bloodraven's goals... I don't know, but I would hazard to guess that whatever his goals are they're opposite somehow to whatever Aegon and the Golden Company will do, want to do, etc. It seems too great a parallel to the Bloodraven-Bittersteel conflict from the past for Martin not to use it, imo. But that's just a guess.
Oh also, rewatching this "Why would the blue flower be a symbol of Lyanna's child because she liked it?" Well, because it's Rheagar who gave it to her. It's how they (at least publically) began their "relationship" at least on a symbollic level. So it would certainly make sense for Jon, the product of that relationship, to be represented by that. But again, it's probably the case that the blue winter roses have multiple symbollic meanings in the story.
This playlist is so refreshing. It's a welcome respite from the dogmatic RLJ crowd, who ignores major evidence that Jon's dad is anyone but Rhaegar. Seriously, there is nothing. to. that. theory. In genereal, Preston, I find yout take on these books to be one of the most rational by far. Thank you for all that you do.
never thought of prophecy that way ... pretty interesting
Return of The King
Call the banners!
kettlemagic
FOR PRESTOROS
Smashing stuff. A purpose of prophecy could be to advise its recipients to prepare for events, or to causally prepare them.
I can't wait for the next episode Sir Preston.
I hope your next series is Littlefinger Part 2.
Hi Preston, do you have any reason why the 3rd vision would be so much more abstract than the other two? It's always kind of bugged me; images of things that literally happened vs a metaphorical flower that can be be teased out into several videos of analysis. Like it could as easily have been, I don't know, 'a man all in black smiled at a wildling in the shadow of a wall of ice', or the corpse one could have been 'a kraken floated in a storm-tossed sea, twisting its tentacles towards an unsuspecting ship'. The point is, why the switch? Thanks x
Hey Preston this was a great video as always and I know I’m not a Patreon but are you going to do another video of History Channel show Knightfall. I just saw the second season trailer and I’m trying to compose myself but ....... MARK HAMILL is in it and my head just blown off. Thanks
Shot in the dark, but could GRRM be referencing Frost again? While I couldn't find anything specifically about roses, some of his bleaker work like "Design" does reference flowers that are supposed to be blue, as well as question the entire concept of benevolent deity. It's only a half formed thought, but I'm a little rusty on my Frost.
Not a shot in the dark at all! A lot of this is in "The Generations of Men" check it out. And much more Frost. "Mending Wall" ("Something there is that does not love a wall," etc.).
👏👏👏
Conor, thank you! While I knew "The Mending Wall," I'd never read "Generations" until now. While we'll have to see where Preston is going with this series to see how it applies here, it's hard to imagine that GRRM wasn't referencing this poem. Especially considering he's a fan of Frost. Between the surname of Stark and the references to family on the mother's side versus the father's, it would be astoundingly odd if it wasn't.
@@poursperfectpints I just read "Design." So much to it. So much to it! Haha. Thanks for the recommendation. I find that, especially with poetry, the best thing to do is to read it once or twice, then walk away from it (turn the analytical mind off) and then when I return to it, the connections develop (the depth starts to expose itself). The first time I read "The Generations of Men", it seemed like the references were superficial. When I returned to it, things jumped out of the page at me!
I don't think any single reference contains all the answers to the mysteries of ASOIAF, but there are so many valid sources of inspiration. This story is basically George's love song to the world: history, art, literature, nature, anthropology, science...basically every theory that identifies one of these connections is valid. It's like Joseph Campbell's "Monomyth" where the symbol is the point, not the source (because the symbol taps into a universal truth, so it makes sense that more than one culture would have a representation of that truth).
Has Preston ever brought up The Mending Wall?
"Grey lips smiling" = _Grey Joy_
Theophrastus Bombastus
Yes indeedy. But still could be either Victarion or Aeron.
@@alanpennie8013 I didn't think Aeron was ever standing at the prow. Seemed to be a prisoner below decks to me
@@theophrastusbombastus1359
Oh indeed. But this is Prophecy. Dun, dun, dun!
Lol I finished rewatching this mini series yesterday!
Grade A Preston right here!
So your saying Danny is actually Ygritte and Jon is really Dario ?????
Howland Reed = Mance Rayder = Halfhand
10:24 Vacationing in June are ya, eh PJ? Where are you going?
Gods give me the strength to resist buying this new Preston shirt.
I think that the blue rose *might* represent Lyanna and therefore Jon but in a lesser sense. I thought on my first read that it is a reminder of the Bael the Bard story, which Rhaegar was emulating, but the rose itself carries a deeper meaning. It is unity and alliance and how love conquers hate.
The reason that Rhaegar and Lyanna is a tragedy is that normally the union of two houses would be union and love and alliance and peace but it caused so much war and death including that of the lovers as well. The whole war was just a tragedy that caused death but helped nothing: Rhaegar was already decided on moving against Aerys, so his death represents the death of a dream the death of peace. Robert's reign lead to an uneasy peace and bankruptcy for the realm.
Now Jon, maybe being born of that strife, wanting peace etc. might be a good symbol for the peace that was lost with Rhaegar. He too chose love over duty and chose to be hated by his brothers to unite the realms of men, i. e. the Seven Kingdoms and the Wildlings. I would not interpret the clues in a way that makes Jon Rhaegar's son butthematically it would not be a bad fit.
At 12:14, who is the guy in the south-left corner?
Kindly Man
ITS FINALLY HERE
1,7 k in less than 24 hours.
You are a force to be reckon with, Sor PJ.
That was AWESOME!!!!!
I like the photoshop of the others getting past the wall
This image @14:12 is really beautiful.
Multiple choice voting time! The culprit is:
a.) Quaithe;
b.) Petyr Baelish;
c.) The Kindly Man;
d.) Bloodraven;
e.) Marwyn;
f.) Children Of The Forest;
g.) The Shrouded Lord.
Rhaenyra reigns
Shrouded Lord would be coolest but it's probably Quaithe.
(Or as a left - field choice the sex god Podrick).
The prophecy very well may be predictive as well as manipulative if the wirewood net is a collective consciousness which could act like a super computer. Bloodraven explicitly says he can't change the past, but changing the future is another thing.
Hell yeah, it's Preston time!