Post Office investigator challenged over failure to follow up on 'glitches' in Horizon IT system
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- Опубліковано 23 січ 2024
- A Post Office investigator was challenged over his reaction to a helpline telling postmaster there were 'glitches' in the Horizon IT system.
Raymond Grant, a former investigator, was challenged during the inquiry into the scandal that saw hundreds of post office employees convicted due to errors in the system.
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"In the absence of any evidence to suggest that theft had actually occurred, did this cause you to consider the possibility that the discrepancy could have been caused by the Horizon system?" - "Errr, no, it didn't". First class investigation skills right there.
@mattrgee....shortfalls are not classed as theft bylaw ....they maybe miss placed ....that is part of the problem because they were convicted on short falls ....... that were not properly investigated.....
That would make a really short episode of Columbo.
Every witness from the PO has been appalling. And I daresay the environment has not changed much to this day.
Yes, compared to the Ann Chambers Inquiry evidence sessions (Fujitsu) POL evidence has been pretty bad.
Trust me I worked for this company for 34 years its been rotten for a very long time
A bunch of liars and charlatans.
Agreed. One recent witness couldn't remember the judge calling their case a sham. The postmistress was acquitted in 2006. The Post Office did not learn from the experience.
@@Marktewk Yes and they even pursued he for the missing money.
Thank God Alan Bates had the confidence to fight. So many SPMs didn't stand a chance with these bullies.
This is a lot of the public sector all over.
When questioned, it's obviously causing them considerable difficulty to answer without immediately incriminating themselves and the Post Office.
It's understandable that they want to cover their backsides. In case of repercussions later. Raymond Grant didn't seem too bothered about protecting the PO.
I've been trying to think about meetings and work projects I was involved in 10 or 20 years ago and I would be unable to answer detailed questions apart from a few truly memorable events.
“Knowing what we know now “ is code for “now I’ve been caught out”
The goal was to shut down criticism of Horizon. The investigators only had one idea, prove people guilty & ignore or not look into any proof of innocence
Disgusting! The longer I live in this country the more disgusted I am by those who govern it. I thought the country I am from was corrupted but this is beyond me.
No one looked for where the "stolen money" went. But there was no "stolen money" - did someone know and benefited from the extra income provided by postmasters? Was this a mass embezzlement scheme?
@@Marktewk One of the investigators Ian Henderson of First Sight, looked into this IIRC, and it was assumed that the moneys were held in a suspense account; then a few years later it found its way into Post Office profits. If you watch the final programme (Part 4) of the series Mr Bates vs the Post office, you will find the comment there, when Ian Henderson makes the above comment to Jo Hamilton, when they are having a drink in the Pub. I would like to think that the inquiry will get to the bottom of where these fictitious sums of money went. Worse still, in some cases Postmasters/mistresses were acquitted, after a trial, that did not stop the PO pursuing, their ex employees to recoup the sums of money that Horizon claimed that was lost. In the case of Jo Hamilton I believe it was £36k that she had to pay back, which was never stolen by her in the first place.
Appalling.
No one can have faith in the British legal system until the players in this scheme are prosecuted
@kathykay9920 The role of the solicitors and barristers shouldn't be forgotten either; all the principles of justice seem to have been cast aside to benefit the Post Office commercial interests. The millions used to prosecute the SPMs, but no one seemed bothered to ask why. As someone from an IT background, I'm amazed that people put so much faith in a computer system.
"investigators", who only "investigated" in one direction.
The word Kangaroo comes to mind.
Why are those investigators not serving life sentences, with no chance of parole?
I would question his level of intelligence if he was the person who wrote the letter and put his name to it yet can't remember anything about it .. for gods sake something must be done to bring these people to account .
The criminal trials cannot begin until the public enquiry is completed. I believe in rehabilitation; prisons should educate. However, I would like to see some of these people breaking rock on Dartmoor.
@@clivesweeting4410 Seriously? You think it normal to recall every document you wrote in work over a decade ago or that it would say anything about your intelligence if you couldn't? It's not like he's denying he wrote it.
@@highmyope-ps2by I don’t see why not. Apparently you under immunity at enquiry so things said there can’t be used in evidence against you.
@@highmyope-ps2by Cracking rocks, seriously, yes.
Jason Beer KC is a class act.. Its his forensic approach that will unravel all this duplicity. Well done Jason
He truly skewered Raymond Grant.
Arise Lord Jason.
Thats why I hate work, you have to deal with arrogant thugs like this on a daily basis and still keep your sanity
Imagine this guy, 20 years younger, swaggering full of power, in his well paid and secure employment, barging into your life and ruining it with glee. The stuff of worst nightmares which had to be lived by many. William Quarm, died as a not-indirect result of Raymond Grant's actions.
The senior management team knew. Paula Vennels lied to parliament. Somebody needs to pay for this
This needs to go to crown court people committed suicide over the po investigation some were jailed outers were classed as theives lost all credibility in communities people need to be jailed for a long time.
This bloke is an out an out liar. Had to be dragged there under threat of arrest.
They are so arrogant it is no wonder that they got away with such a thing. Birds of a feather flock together.
"Knowing what we know now". Er, the point of this inquiry is what you knew then. These people need to be charged with perverting the course of justice. Only prison sentences/removal of pension rights will concentrate the minds of these people in comfortable offices ruining the lives of others.
yeah when they say "Know now" they mean admit now, ackonowledge now
So, he does not remember typing up a document that could have sent another person to jail. What a contemptible poor excuse for a human being.
These PO 'investigators' are sharp. As sharp as a MARBLE!
Having worked for Post Office Counters Ltd, Brighton, throughout the 1980s, I can vouch for the fact that post office managers are incompetent loons. Career progression in the Post Office is based on seniority and length of service, not on ability, and that has disastrous consequences. My first manager would go to the pub at lunchtime and come back two hours later blind drunk; my second manager, in the payroll department, knew sod all about payroll. So it does not surprise me that the Post Office never carried out due diligence on the Horizon system. I remember how my payroll manager would sit all day long, with nothing to do, neurotically chain-smoking and I am reliably informed that after I left for pastures new in 1990, Post Office Counters Ltd, Brighton were fined 60000 pounds by the Inland Revenue for non-compliance with the end-of-year (P60) procedures (I was the only person there who knew how to complete them).
I tried to join the post office when I was 18. I was told at interview I was too enthusiastic.😂
If the whole of the country were whistleblowers, we’d all become shareholders in the making of films or documentaries it would be eye watering.
I don’t think any of these people actually realise what they’ve done to innocent people who were honestly trying to do a days work.
Words fail all of us - I hope every victim and their families are very soon to have their money returned to them, that was taken away wrongfully from them.
They may have to build a new prison for this lot, HMP Horizon
Robbo you are being extremely naive noone is getting jailed for this.i cant believe anybody thinks that will happen.yes they deserve jail time bot the ruling classes protect corporate individuals
@@michaelmcginley7930 sadly i agree
I will help build it
I cannot believe how arrogant these so called inspectors are still to this day, I think they actually believe they were infallible
In the UK we have a principal investigatory authority which is the police. We have a prosecuting authority which is the CPS. How on earth were this totally untrained and incompetent post office investigators allowed to carry out an investigation of this magnitude?
In isolation each of their investigations is not particularly difficult or complex. It's experienced shift officer (PC) level stuff if it were the police. The problem is they deliberately investigated without impartiality, only pursued lines of enquiry toward the post masters, not away from them, and they / the organisation refused to engage in disclosure in accordance with CPIA. They lied and withheld highly undermining material for decades, right the way through the organisation. It's like properly bent 1970's policing, but in the modern day. People should go to jail for it.
@@paulgeddert6125the defence counsel of those who pleaded guilty should also have questions to answer
And they were interviewed in a police station by PO investigators not police
The post office has powers of prosecution separate from the police and CPS.
@@jonjon9047 Not for much longer
"I don't know" , "I can't recall", "I was only following orders/doing my job"............anyone smell a rat??
It with be the 'biggest miscarriage of British justice' if the architects of this are not banged up...which won't surprise any hard working brit.
this guy still thinks they were guilty...the family should sue him
Alpha Piper = no one prosecuted. Grenfell = no one prosecuted. Can't see this going any differently to be honest. There's no accountability in this Country.
A miscarriage of justice suggests it happened in error ,this was deliberate persecution on innocent hard working people
Hand is over/by his mouth while he is speaking. A common sign that an individual is being less than truthful.
It's worth watching the David Teale interview. At about the 58 min mark he is trying to get the chair to swallow him up once he realises Jason Beer has got him. A classic case in body language giving the game away.
People might not think the system wasn't faulty if we told them it was faulty?
This Raymond Grant thing does not come across as capable of making sense of words, so even if this thing heard about faults it had no cognitive capacity to process such information.
Well done mr bates for being a complete British pain in the proverbial.
By god its appalling.
I want to see at least a dozen jail sentences at the end of all this. Mass cover up at the PO.
Help desk, no one else has this problem, that's helpful isn't it.
Good job you can't be sent to jail for utter incompetence. We'd need thousands of extra jails. What absolute cretins !
“I can’t recall typing this document but I must have done because it’s got my name on it …” Shows how little importance he placed on the matter at the time (never mind that a man’s life and career was about to be ruined) and oh dear, how inconvenient it’s just surfaced and he’s been called to account for it.
These worms NEED to go straight to jail.
Unfortunately, a massive cover up like this means lots of people in high power...a group hell bent on wriggling out by any means...including those who ultimately passed sentence - the judiciary. The government will apply 'pressure' so that the 'right thing' is NOT carried out !!!
Every PO witness swore an oath to tell the truth. Pure contempt and lies.
Pathetic wee man way out of his depth now and unfortunately when he was “investigating”. You’ve got to wonder about the integrity and ability of his managers - well maybe no surprises…
As soon as he said "A nod or a wink" he lost me!
The help desk telling the truth was a problem 😡 what a scumbag
Just watched the TV series, unbelievable what these poor people went through, freaking disgusting and I hope everyone involved gets their karma. Lives were ruined and nobody in charge cared one bit, absolutely appalling!
Jason Beer KC…..What a brilliant mind…o on the ball. These people don’t stand a chance if they’re lying.
Like Lord Arbuthnot said don't wait for the enquiry to finish police should start investigating now!! Don't waste any more time. The post office bosses are clearly out of touch not one of them have just said enoughs enough we've messed up. Good luck to all the postmasters and hope you get justice very soon those PO Bosses must be having sleepless nights now.
Another not my fault scenario.
Why would he jeopardise his BONUS?
Where did the Post Office get these people from?
Jason Beer KC is deadly!
you would love him defending you
He's absolutely wonderful, Sir Jason Beer I say @@paulrichards6894
The Postmasters were internally investigated and charged by the Post Office, who had massive self interest in the case. If the cases had gone to a 'proper court' the standard of evidence and proof should have been much, much higher... The shameful thing is that the Post Office was allowed to cover up obvious problems with the unproven Horizon system, and ruin the lives of so many honest and hardworking post office staff.
The cases DID go to a "proper court" but all the legal checks and balances were ignored especially with the presumption of innocence and the rules on disclosure. Our legal system was duped.
Come on cps. Time to bring charges against all of them; investigators, managers, CEO... This is most definitely in the PI to do
One issue has apparently been overlooked. The Post Office Investigator under questioning stated that not all reconciliation discrepancies showed a loss of money - sometimes there were surpluses! Whereas the automatic assumption was made that loses were down to postmaster theft what action was taken in respect of the supposed surpluses? Am I correct in thinking that the Post Office put down surpluses to a glitch in the Horizon system or maybe, unlikely perhaps, the postmasters awarded the unexplained surpluses? The rule appears to be within the Post Office that a reconciliation surplus should be regarded as a system glitch and could be ignored, whilst losses were postmaster theft. Surprised the Inquiry legal team haven't followed up on this point.
Great point & definitely has to be investigated. Heads i win tails you lose scenario.
No thats been covered already.
@@fatwalletboy2 Hi thanks for that. I must have missed it. Can you tell me what the Post Office claimed to have done when there was a reconciliation "gain" rather than a "loss"? Just curious to know you understand - Regards.
I don't think there have been any.
Corruption needs to be stamped out in any business full stop!
Are we to believe that in all of those years, the help desk staff did NOT alert their management to the glitches? This fellow is just so full of it.
"Knowing what we know now". Call me cynical, but:
Interrogator: "Herr Himmler, do you accept any responsibilty for the atrocities committed in your camps?"
Himmler: "Well, knowing what we know now, I accept that some errors may have crept into the system"
It would not surprise me at all if there are people who are, or were in the P.O. or Fujitsu, who are now considering their position in relation to this scandal, and who are now considering turning Kings evidence in order to obtain immunity from prosecution, or mitigate against a prison sentence.
The police have done FA in three years … what a joke … the whole thing is corrupt
Several witnesses at the inquiry have been warned of their rights to silence if they might incriminate themselves. None have used this as far as I'm aware.
Telling people there are glitches is not an 'opinion' it was fact. And yet another one who needs referring to the local Memory Clinic.
INTEGRITY? Dont use big words that you do not understand. Abdsolutely appalling and they should all be in prison with no pensions
Raymond has attempted to silence questioning of Horizon at the expense of peoples personal liberty! His priorities are clear to see...the corporate schill...protect my job at any cost!
I wonder if the corporate cover up umbrella will cover them all? The questioning is pretty benign allowing them 'wriggle room'.
Thick as planks.
Another waste of space. Couldn’t be bothered to carry out full & thorough investigations into missing monies and system glitches, and couldn’t be bothered to read the investigation papers & witness statements he was sent for this inquiry. But was happy to pursue individuals in order to feather his own bed. I can’t believe every single investigator was that dumb that they didn’t know what was going on and that they were playing their part in the cover up. Hence he was more concerned by help desk staff telling sub postmasters there was glitches with the system.
KC Beer is a formidable questioner !!
As it would appear the bonus scheme was recovery money driven there was an incentive to ignore evidence that would preclude the SPM having to pay back money that was not due. It would be interesting to see ab analysis pre & post Horizon bonus awards to these investigators (thugs).
Unbelievable that so many of these investigators & managers at the post office can't remember anything that might implicate themselves in fraud or wrongdoing but can remember other issues from the same time frame very clearly.
Yes. They remember the name of the barrister but can't remember the judge saying the PO case was a sham.
Shouldn't this lying bully be in court for false allegations/perjury, he comes across as someone who is pissed on power.
Shocking, excuse after excuse. Perfect memory recall apart from anything that would incriminate himself.
Perverting the course of justice still carries a life sentence. Can Corporations receive punishment?
I feel so bad for all the post masters how they and their families have suffered for years . I saw an unterview with a current post master who said the errors are still hapoening today
They are guilty of perverting the course of justice,perjury, and fraud these corrupt evil people need to be behind bars for YEARS, the carried on with the vicious prosecutions long after they were aware of problems with the software .
User-mo5om5tv1m That is correct they are guilty , they have connived , lied and cheated innocent people out of their freedom , livelihoods and their good names to cover up their illegal and totally immoral shenanigans, there is no question that prosecution must follow and not just for a handful but all of them from the bottom to the very top with no exception, somehow I do not think that will happen , the government along with the civil service and the lawyers will connive to make sure the people they see as untouchable are untouched, just as they always have.
He said "knowing what we know now". What does he know now that he didn't know before the TV drama?
He doesn't mind putting an innocent man in jail, but when public opinion changes - he's all - I didn't know, I had to move house and I was sick.
Why is he not in prison ???
Shocking every person interviewed so far in the post office should be considered for prosecution, absolutely no remorse and everyone of them, same story ……sorry not my job I did was I was told
Raymond Grant made a couple of interesting statements in his evidence.
First someone on the Horizon Helpdesk confirmed system glitches in 2001. This caused Grant to express concern, this is ambiguous probably deliberately so.
Second that PO legal training did not cover Scots Law and they, Scots investigators, were left to work it out for themselves. Must have affected quality of their evidence in meeting obligations
Neither reflect well on the PO.
Partly through the full version of this. The background to why he only did a 2.5 page witness statement was amazing and pretty much summed up if he just said “Why are wasting my time, the guy was guilty”.
It makes you really angry when you hear how glib he is and so self righteous in his unwillingness to see how his incompetence caused so much misery.
Maybe if the Postoffice had been better prepared, then they would not have embarrassed themselves so easily
This guy said he felt postmaster was guilty despite him being not giulty by trial. Should be locked up.
It's the forgetfulness of all the investigators that throws me out. I hope some are banned from driving, as if they can't remember writing a witness statement 10 years ago, how can they remember the highway code eh ?! Elaine Cottam had a shockingly bad memory ... Are they coached to say that do ya reckon?
I can’t recall … help desk is not helpful… I can see where you’re coming from … bland statements indeed eh!
His and the rest of the rest of his colleagues' bank accounts and assets must be investigated. Having seen the other people summoned in this inquiry, there is a suspicion that the PO had a bonus scheme funded by the £££££ paid by the sub-postmasters. If this were the courts, one would urge the lawyer to ask, "Did your salary include a bonus scheme attached to this specific investigation?"
Judging by what I've seen so far, I'm not sure anyone at the PO had the wit or wisdom to come up with such a scheme!
These people need to go to prison
I think he'd still like to see them prosecuted - arrogant and deluded!
These people are disgusting… stop their fat pension any bonus must be repaid…
and a spell at his majesty pleasure.
But as usual they will get away with it … the police have done FA as usual…
SACK HIM NO GOLD PLATED PENSION EITHER
Cheers Mr Beer....🍻
He's sitting there hoping when his mooth opens he says the right thing. I think that the investigator needs investigated to find out if he knows what he's talking about because he looks clueless to me.
Incompetent and complacent managers are the whole reason why British manufacturing industry collapsed as Japan and Germany re-industrialised in the 60s and beyond. And more recently, why did BT completely fail to control the exploding market for mobile phones? They were worrying about growth in landline business so they added the 1 to everybody's landline numbers.
Now we see formerly great British institutions like the RIBA, The Ramblers and the BBC employing people for their skin colour and bringing a whole new level of incompetence.
My goodness, he is like a startled rabbit in a cars headlights. Squirming under questioning and so he should be.
These Investigators did not do what they were supposed to - they just listened to other people’s opinions and then took it upon themselves to make sure SPM’s were charged by hear say.
When you view this inquiry these witnesses do not seem to comprehend or listen to the questions asked by the lead counsel that are very clear and straightforward.
Send him straight to jail. He is lying and was only interested in protecting the Post Office.
Oh yeah I can now see where you’re coming from….even though I was already aware of everything at the time.
Slap on the cuffs now!
I have struggled to find any redeeming qualities in these Post Office Managers, Investigators and Lawyers. How such a morally deficit group of people were ever brought together under the same roof needs to be examined. 🤬
Glitches! Substantially more significant than that.
Well done Mr Beer. He wasn't so smug and self-righteous at the end of the last session and the beginning of this one.
I think Mr Beer is brilliant
They are not going to sentence to prison all the implicated simply because there are too many, and because that would bring a too big political backlash to the select comitee members
I have watched a few of these interviews. Some of these people need to be doing some prison time and loosing there pensions. Those poor Postmasters that have lost everything and the effect on their families. I’m sick of hearing I can’t remember! Or I don’t remember writing that. It’s not good enough.
Wouldn't it be a real shame if failings in Grant's personal life were to come to light
Please please please put these people in prison !!!!!!!!!!
I'm sick of these people who is responsible cover-ups .when are the BRITISH PEOPLE'S going to hear these corrupte people have receved long prison sentenses for ther crimes committed against the United Kingdoms citizens! But we already know that's never going to happen 😊! In this first half of this Centurie by that time most of them will have died .
The saga shows the very worst of the public sector and the very worst of the private sector. A nasty cocktail!
The investigators didn't want to know about glitches, they were getting their jollies taking people down.
The help desk telling the truth and he has a problem with that. What a chancer.
There seems to be an epidemic of "selective amnesia" amongst many of these witnesses. I wonder why that might be.
Senior managers were asleep at the wheel and were not listening ? In IT there are managers who do not want to hear "Bad news" and analysts who are "Business analysts" in name only. The drive for "Zero Defects" that was promoted in the 1980's has been long forgotten in IT.
Now the trend and talk is about "Artificial Intelligence", It always makes me want to laugh in their face. Can you imagine this situation in life or death technology.
We saw exactly this with the US Space shuttle which grounded US space industry for over 10 years.
OMG!!!
TFL has this same sort of management. The way they have treated people with cars and motorbikes that are ULEZ compliant and yet have argued every step of the way that they are not. Unless you have your wits about you, they will bully you into submission even if your car or bike is ULEZ compliant.....I've got literally 30 or more correspondences with these people. Only after threatening court action did they yield.
Jail.