Fujitsu aren't 100% innocent in this. They denied Michael Rudkin was even at their HQ in Bracknell and got rid of the logbook that day he visited then when he produced the email from them inviting him there they changed their story to he saw a test machine that wasn't connected or live. Who hacked his branch account and made £40,000 go missing? The PO didn't do that Fujitsu did. So yes they are culpable they did inform the PO who ignored it and covered that up but Fujitsu also had a part in it
This evidence seems to be digging a very deep legal hole beneath the Post Office. This guy's candour and willingness to answer questions with a simple 'yes' and 'I agree' is extremely refreshing.
Whereas both Fujitsu and PO middle manager appear to be without moral compass, functioning memory and bereft of basic management ability in their attempts to avoid answering the question and deflecting blame. They really have made our politicians look slick and professional in comparison.
I watched Mr Patterson's evidence in full - he wasn't "cornered" as your tagline suggests - he came across to me as very open and honest - he didn't seek to cover up or defend Fujitsu's involvement at all - he was very candid and forthcoming
Otherwise any future criminal court case would result in him being found guilty of conspiracy to defraud. On that basis I would be very careful giving him to much credit.
He is not comfortable answering the questions. The stress he is going through is clearly on display. I agree with you, that he does appear to be answering honestly.
As far as I am aware two Fujitsu "witnesses" are under investigation for perjury and perverting the course of justice - I would have thought fraud would be difficult to establish in circumstances where Fujitsu appear to have alerted the Post Office to their concerns about the reliability of the audit data. I am not defending Fujitsu in any shape or form I'm just observing that I found this witness refreshingly forthcoming and honest in a shameful case of deception, cover up and wrongful prosecution. @@1inchPunchBowl
They should pay the entire compensation bill and the post office top dogs should have their bonuses taken back and all should be facing criminal charges. If any average citizen caused this much harm and suffering said citizen would be locked up for a very long time.
Why should they pay all of it. If they told the customer the correct information about errors but the customer choose to ignore or amend that information, who is at fault
@@marshyman66 Fujitsu sent so called expert witnesses to court on behalf of the PO when they already knew there was an issue with the system. They caused irreparable damage to thousands of individuals by being instrumental in enabling the PO to continue covering it up. They are culpable and caused the whole shit show. The top dogs at the PO should not be spared though. Take their money via multi million pound fines and criminally charge them for at least fraud. The tax payer should not pay a single penny.
He seemed slightly taken aback when asked about compensation for relatives of those falsely convicted. One postmaster was disowned by his father and ended up being sectioned three times. Others accused family members of stealing when they couldn't balance the books. What about the families whose wrongly-convicted relative killed themselves? It affected entire families, most of whom will never be the same again. To think such lives were expendable in order to protect a brand (now trashed) is beyond any normal human being's belief. Jail sentences for those in the know MUST follow. Financial punishment won't cut it.
Yes I knew that. Did you know after paying out the lawyers fees, each wrongly-convicted postmaster was left with just £20,000 each?? And they didn't 'win' anything. Their own money was stolen by the Post Office and then used to fund bonuses. They haven't even been given their own money back. Did you know that? @@marshyman66
Having worked in a Bank's IT department, I know that Bugs, errors and defects are common in all major IT systems. The difference in this case is the way the Post office chose to ignore all and any possibilities of the impact of the Bugs and errors on the prosecutions of Postmasters.
Earlier evidence by Fujitsu employees suggests to me, that for a least one issue, the IT personnel thought it was a one off. Anybody who has had dealings with a multi-user systems knows that no fault is a one off, if one person can break a system then another can. It also appears that faults occurred if the sub-postmaster was working on the system at the same time as the weekly run was taking place at ~7pm. It doesn't seem unreasonable to think that sub-postmasters would be working at that time on any evening but especially when the weekly financial report is going to be run. Why do a major backup when people will be working on the system? why not run in the early hours?
I don't remember ever seeing a software contract (EULA or bespoke development/support contract) that did not say something like "the supplier does not warrant that the software will be defect or error free". Moreover, software development / support contracts focus more on how defects and errors will be remedied when they are found - there is never any doubt that there will be bugs.
I was shocked to discover that Horizon was written on Visual Basic, a language intended for home/educational use not one for a large commercial programme due to its error reporting and architecture making creation of bugs when first authoring or making modifications/additions quite likely..
I've been watching this inquiry from day 1, and the professionalism and line of questioning by the KC are superb. Each person is asked very gentle question and their responses dissected allowing them to dig some very deep holes.
Agreed. The whole investigative team have been excellent, and totally in command of their brief. Hugely impressive, given the sheer amount of evidence they've had to get to grips with.
If Vennells is unwise enough to give evidence I wonder who will be given the job of unmasking her as a liar. Jason has the factual ammo but he'll need to outwit her. She'll blur the issues and blunt his questions. She will make him look pedantic and bullying. I doubt she'll budge an inch. She is ordained by God remember.
@@martinross5521 Brilliant analogy. The KC's questioning here is quite remarkable and gently presented with total professionalism. The denouement came when the KC stated Fujitsu knew about the system's poor reliability and indeed plethora of bugs for over 2 decades. When the flowchart was analysed there was no mention of the 'known error log'. Carefully concealed by Fujitsu. Checkmate.
@@martinplatt5928 I’ve only been watching the inquiry since the ITV drama. But the people dragged in have been an assortment of liars, avoiders and bullies until the MD arrived. I give him credit for being honest. But why on earth can the PO still hold Second Sight to a confidentiality agreement even now? This should be ripped up before Phase 5 starts. Next week: investigators tell how they blackmailed and bullied postmasters/mistresses into admiring guilt when they were innocent. All done while the government looked the other way 🤬
i suspected so all along this was a con with in post office and the goverments who inherited this fault.no wonder the tory put a lib dem lacky in charge to take the blame .
The Post Office management and investigators (including the obnoxious scumbag who gave evidence a few days ago) knew perfectly well that there were bugs in the system. They didn't *_ignore_* that; they deliberately concealed this fact and lied in their witness statements in court cases against subpostmasters.
@@KEN-fn2ld The issue appears to be Post Office's response to bugs and errors reported by Fujitsu. Fujitsu,as far as I know, did not prosecute postmasters.
So...Fuji informed the PO as and when a bug was found starting before 2000. Evidence statements provided by Fuji employees which had any reference to bugs were edited by the PO (or their legal team) to remove any reference to system faults. Criminal.
Are we expected to believe that none of the Royal Mail’s or Fujitsu’s employees had any knowledge of this whole fiasco? Not ONE whistleblower, over decades.
I cannot wrap my head around the glaring fact that Paula Vennels and her thug-like cohorts were in FULL KNOWLEDGE of Horizon's faults but went full steam ahead anyway of hounding, harassing and prosecuting the innocent submasters and mistresses! And Paula Vennels is an Anglican priest???? If the whole lot of them don't go to jail, the UK needs to rise up and march in the streets, demanding proper justice and prosecution. My blood boils.
I feel that, unlike many of his colleagues interviewed this week, Paul Patterson came over very well and seemed to answer the questions honestly and openly.
@@bigpants6121 I think you have misunderstood my comment. I'm not defending Fujitsu in any way at all. If you have watched the rest of the interviews in full this week you might understand my point. In my opinion many others this week deserve to face criminal action.
Yes totally agree. I’ve now watched all todays evidence and he came over very well and looks like he is very frank and completely honest is his disclosure giving a full comprehensive witness statement that doesn’t try to cover anything up.
Think it’s worth mentioning, this in my eyes, appears to be the only guy giving straight answers. He wasn’t at the company I don’t believe for much of this, yet appears to be the only taking responsibility.
I've no doubt that Fujitsu senior management, having seen the way the Inquiry has gone thus far, has realised the jig is up and decided to come clean in an attempt to minimise the harm that comes to them. Pleading guilty in the hope of a more lenient sentence, etc.
@@bigpants6121@Milkydrummer did not talk about the guys appearance, my friend. From what I have seen, the persons asked up to this man were non-answering almost every question. This man does answer clearly and openly and admits to knowledge he has, Fujitsu had from as early as 1999 and that many people at Fujitsu have been aware of, about the errors, bugs and defects in the Horizon software. No other person‘s testimony I have seen did that. This man even agreed, that the communication about these errors, bugs and defects should have been included in the information provided to the post office inquiries from the very beginning. No one else questioned before ever admitted to anything like that. So he appears to be forthcoming, open and willing to honestly answer and not by his appearance.
Not once did he say " i dont recall , i can't remember " Came across as open and provided information and hopefully a commitnent to exonerate and compensate all the Post masters.
1. He knows he's bang to rights & culpable as the CEO, & 2. He knows that the response " I dont recall , i can't remember " has been rinsed beyond being a joke now in these inquiries
Yeah, he was hardly "cornered" or "grilled". More like "Fujitsu CEO sits in corner and invites stuttering stammering guy to ask any and all questions and answers them honestly and plainly" lol
All postmasters and postmistresses affected should (1)be refunded for financial losses plus interest, (2) receive appropriate compensation for distress and suffering caused and (3) all politicians, senior post office management and post office investigaters should face criminal charges and stand trial for corrupt practices. They were trying to protect the Post Office name and instead have damaged it forever.
I agree 100%. Here are the offences committed: 1. Malicious Prosecution. 2. Perverting The Course Of Justice. 3. Fraud. 4. Malfeasance In Public Office. As a retired Detective Constable I will happily carryout the arrests, interviews and case file preparation for free. I will also attend each trial as “the officer in the case” for no charge. My investigations would be according to the rules that police officers have to follow to ensure the offenders are treated correctly - PACE (Police And Criminal Evidence Act 1984). There would be no offer of plea bargaining and the offenders would be charged and prosecuted for every offence that they have committed, including perjury. My first arrest would Paula Vennells. I’d like to see how she copes with a custody cell, being photographed and fingerprinted and popped into a Magistrates Court for a committal hearing.
@@stevehaynes2857 Vennells is the one holding the pass the parcel bomb when it went off. There are potentially hundreds of culpable people over the last 35 years.
This guy comes across as being open regarding what he knew, which is refreshing in this case. However, what needs to be at the forefront of this inquiry is that four people committed suicide due to the horrendous treatment they underwent. Not only do the other surviving postmasters need to be properly compensated By Fujitsu and the P.O. but those who knew about faults and conspired to continue regardless need to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. They have blood on their hands and need to be held to account.
I once worked a at a large University in the Marketing Dept. Our call centre had to use a bespoke CM system, that kept crashing. The call centre staff and myself were sent off for training, as we were told by the supplier that we were causing the problems. I asked the "instructor" to show us how the system should work, on the liver server ( not on a local network in their training room ). As they tried to save some incoming call info, their system crashed, and could not be restarted. I then asked the trainer to bring their sales manager into the room, and advised him that they seemed to be in breach of their supplier agreement and asked him why we should be expected to keep paying their monthly license fee, and that we also expected a credit for the last 18 months of their license fee. He was stunned.
@@1inchPunchBowl I suggest you re read my comment. It's only 16 words long. Then explain how my post says 1 anything about previous statements from Fujitsu 2 How pointing out the truth on what was said in this hearing is giving him a free pass
Fujitsu seem willing and ready to answer questions and accept facts. It's so refreshing. I am used to Government ministers and in Post Office leaders not doing so. Refreshing.
Paul Patterson seems to be the only one so far interviewed in this inquiry that has answered honestly. The Post Office crooks seem to all have developed a bug and glitch in their memory. Ironic
Unbelievable coverup from the post office. I feel that they haven't touched the surface with this cover up. I'm sure that they will be plenty more to harvest in this cover up.
Malice and utter contempt for their employees. Shameful! Not only should heads roll, but there should also be prosecutions of senior management. As for compensation, anyone affected by this should never worry about money for the rest of their lives. Not to be payed for by the tax payer. Jujitsu needs to be liable and Post Office accountable.
@@marshyman66 mr Jenkins postponed inquiry questioning twice. To save you a day of time, read 'Clark Advice' from Post Office lawyer Simon Clark - Jenkins give evidence at court that convicted the victims saying the system is not "corrupt", the post office lawyer known the evidence is flawed and posed an insurance risk.
I worked in IT for over 30 years. No "software architect", software engineer, analyst, programmer or indeed ANYONE who has worked in software in ANY capacity can claim the software they worked on "has no bugs". It is impossible to prove. One always assumes that there are bugs, you either know about them or they haven't been found yet. Even NASA and military software has bugs, just not as many as commercial software!
Truly truly shocking stuff. Brilliant to be able to watch the inquiry and have the incompetence exposed and hopefully eventually reveal the true offenders
This was interesting and refreshing. Someone at last being straight. I think Fujitsu failed to deliver on their service/sales promise and struggled to get on top of the complexity of the challenge they undertook. But in fairness, IT capability in the late 90's and into the "2000's" was in its infancy really. So I have some sympathy towards Fujitsu. Fujitsu are guilty of not doing a good job, but they broke no laws. Fundamentally this should not be referred to as the 'Horizon Scandal', it should be referred to as the "Post Office Management scandal". The Post Office - and the Post Office alone - repeatedly made the decisions to prosecute and treat the postmasters as they did. The more Post Office management and executives I see the worse this organisation becomes. Frankly it's about the inept and negligent management by the Post Office leadership team of the business. The Post Office is guilty in the legal sense, and the directors should be held to account and face prosecution as they have failed in their legally binding duties as directors.
He was Fujitsu sales manager in 2010. He would be torn to shreds in a court. He knows all about stitching these innocent people up. I hope he ends up in jail just like our local sub postmaster. @@SarahHanes-bf6ns
Bugs, not glitches. Glitches are technical errors caused by faulty or damaged hardware. Bugs are errors in the code that can (and should) be corrected.
This was not all to bugs in software. There were glitches in network performance and also issues with hardware performance at the central location based on resilience design and business continuity process. It was not one thing
You can't fix a bug unless the purchaser works with you to resolve it. When the post office is telling sub postmasters there's no problem, and refusing to deliver the information to resolve the error, the bug can't be fixed.
@@leroygoldbridge8874 it wasn't fujitsu lying to subpostmasters about the existence of the bugs and prosecuting them. From what I've seen so far, fujitsu have acted in accordence with what the client has requested and tried to remedy the issues while their CLIENT the Post Office refused to work with them to resolve the issue and instead exploited it for financial gain. It was the Post Office DELETING references to the known issues log from the witness statements.
@@MadCatLady28 Rubbish Fujitsu operated the help desk for Horizon therefore would be the first to have knowledge of any bugs, errors etc. Just look at the already reported error reporting/resolving method.
@@matthewn1805. Ok so if you have read that process please tell us all what was wrong with it. Of potential 6 million transactions and 0.002% error rate, so 120 a day the vast majority were scrutinised understood and fixed. You really don't know what you are talking about
The only truthful, engaging interaction I’ve seen in this enquiry!! The rest has been bulls it, legal team, lawyer speak, baseless empty answers, he is either a genius or genuine either way he not avoiding the truth 😮
I first knew about this scandal around 2010, when I read an article about it then. It was obviously an IT issue - I worked as a software engineer - and I simply don't get that any court would believe otherwise. The whole system is screwed, and we need a (peaceful) revolution.
I read about motorists being fined for pulling into a bus lane as an ambulance was on an emergency call. When appealing the council refused. This lack of care or fairness at the centre of ‘our’ systems is representative of how bad things have become. Discretion gone to be replaced by uncaring compliance. Something rotten at the centre of our institutions.
As someone who's been on the recieving end of multiple system implementations, I'm struggling to see exactly what fujitsu has done wrong - aside from holding back the known error log, which is insane. I use those all the time during a rollout and beyond. But I'd bet money the Post Office requested it to be held back.
@@steveevans4299 according to the testimony, it was held back... the full circumstances of the time frame and reason wasn't covered. It was clearly released at some point and shared with the post office, but it's quite clear this information wasn't made available to subpostmasters. I guess this was a while back, but I'm in the KEL all the time for months after any rollout. Most people are, aren't they?
I worked for the NHS for 20 years, there were bugs and defects, errors in the computer systems dealing with patients records which were shared by hospitals across the country. So no computer system operates robustly. The post office needs to cough up compensation immediately and those who have lied and indeed committed grievous harm to the post masters must serve time in person.
My questions would be. Did Fujitsu carry out FAT (factory acceptance test), did they carry out any soak tests, did they carry out a SAT (site acceptance test) did they run this software in shadow or ghost mode such that the existing system could operate as normal with the new software in shadow mode alongside but having no effect on the existing. How long was the pilot period. Was that pilot period carried out at a select set of premises, or across the piece. Did they in fact at the FAT stage, try their hardest to break the system, hack the system or otherwise knacker it up completely? I wouldn't trust Fujitsu to empty my bins!
14 million lines of code. 5 tier testing environments (Development & Continuous Integration /System Validation/Live System (inc. Regression) /Volume/Model Office). Joint testing teams POL & FJ. The scandal here is not that an extremely complex IT system had issues, but that Post Masters were considered guilty before being assumed innocent.
i agree with this. Its standard corporate shittines that Fujitsu did what they did however that does not mean that they were making the PO prosecute PM's.@@steveevans4299
First witness who seems to be truthful. Although it’s unforgivable that they did not intervene when they were fully aware of what was going on. They stonewalled any requests from Postmasters before it went public
@@pi5549I think the suicides were reported elsewhere. Regardless, if you find yourself in huge debt beyond your assets or savings and being vilified in your local community for theft when you've done nothing untoward, I'm sure it will have a serious negative impact!.
So hard to watch, especially when he dodges the most important questions - when did FJ find out data is used for prosecutions (avoided answering - they knew all along and were "defending integrity of horizon"), why bugs never made it to witness statements (non-answer, but it's fairly obvious it had to come from the top if everybody did it and had to involve FJ legal), why are error logs not part of data for prosecutions (non-answer, it was clearly on purpose so HZ bugs don't come out). He has to stop pretending it was somebody else's job - he was the account director at a critical time and by far the biggest deal was HZ. He has to know he and his firm had the responsibility to disclose this to the court, not just post office.
I still don't understand as to how these postmasters were convicted without any evidence of stealing? That means there's something wrong with our criminal system! 😮
This CEO has just removed the post office's safety net and cut their harness line, then pushed them out on the broken trapeze. He has made it clear that the post office didn't care about justice or integrity just conviction rates because that meant bonuses all round. From the top down this is an operation that perverted the course of justice for hundreds of instances, Vennells and her minions should be prosecuted for every single case. Then sentenced for each one separately the sentences to run consecutively, in order that they know on year x day y in prison they are there because they destroyed the life, character and reputation of z. It will probably need a prison to be built just for them, the wings can be named after those who took their own lives because of it except for one. The Grenfell wing is for those responsible for killing 71 people, built in the hope that it will house them during their sentences.
This guys has obviously taken over at Fujitsu after the scandal, and is now trying to make the best of an untenable situation by taking responsibility for Fujitsu's part in this. Fujitsu were always acting in their own self-interest, and trying to show a working system when the system had fundamental flaws and errors from the start, and have realised the jig is up, and are now doing everything they can to be seen to be cooperating because they know that from here on, they are in serious, serious trouble. I would suspect this is going to cost Fujitsu at least £1B in terms of compensation and redress, and Gareth Jenkins amongst others has to answer for not providing the proper evidence at trial.
This is a story of a complex I.T. system VERSUS hundreds of middle-aged, non-technical individuals who were poorly trained to understand or operate it. Then add in the Post Office Executives (Time Lag Factor) who acted as judge, jury and executioner because the system was "unsafe" from the outset. The technical errors were compounded by Post Office executives delays and half-truths and lives were ruined. The Post Office "a communication company", failed to communicate with Fujitsu and its Postmasters, in other words CRAP LEADERSHIP & MANAGEMENT all at public expense. Shame on all parties . . . .
I think this is like the titanic where everyone was told it was 'unsinkable' - only to find the opposite was the case. But sister ships at the time had known stress fractures but this was only known to engineers.
Many of those people who was employed by the Post office and Fujitsu was complicit in giving spurious evidence which sent many innocent sub -postmasters to be convicted because of the impact of their evidence, to such an extent that it caused false criminal convictions, imprisonments, loss of livelihood and homes, debt and bankruptcy and took a dramatic toll on victims and their families, leading to stress, illness, divorce and even worse than that, suicides. Why should these deplorable people that lied and hide the truth from the police enquires, not themselves be sent to prison for their act of perjury by preventing the course of justice from reaching the rightful decision, by returning verdicts of not guilty of all these cases brought to trial.
In the drama a union official visits the Fujitsu office in Bracknell but then a coverup follows where there are denials the union official ever visited.
Given that they reported them, to some extent they were aware. However the bugs were not taken into sufficient consideration by Post Office Prosecutors, and Post Masters were told they were 'the only ones' with those reported issues.
I’ve been watching many of these sessions and SO FAR this guy is the most honest and straightforward IN MY personal view and he doesn’t display the incredible arrogance displayed by many others in the legal and security teams - Gary
As someone who has worked in IT for 40 years if the contractor informed the client of issues / bugs and the client (post office) did nothing or manipulated the reports the contractor has done all they could. They are now trying to salvage reputation and ongoing contracts by dropping the post office in it. Yes very bad software system. But post office management basically morally corrupt.
Most galling is that this guy is likely to get away without jail time and with his multi-million pension intact. And taxpayers (me!) will end up paying for what he and his cronies have done.
He doesn’t stumble over his answers, he looks directly back, he doesn’t fidget, he doesn’t take long pauses or look away for prolonged periods. You can tell straight away when someone is lying and when someone is telling the truth. And this is the first clip I’ve seen of anyone displaying what you would expect of someone telling the truth.
I agree, but don't Fujitsu have an obligation to inform authorities if they felt the Post Office were prosecuting under false information ? @@MadCatLady28
Who did FJ pass the bug log to at the Post Office - a fairly simple question that does not seem to be answered here. Ie who was responsible there for raising this issue up the management line 16:55
People are commenting that £57 million was won in the earlier case, most of that money went to legal fees because the Court did not award Costs against the PO. The disgraceful thing I learnt today was the charge that Fujitsu made for its staff attending Court as witnesses for the PO in many cases. Just one case today Fujitsu charged £20.000 for one witness.. I hope someone asks how much Fujitsu made from these Court Cases, those charges would have been added to any costs that the convicted Sub Postmasters/Mistresses would have had to pay. No wonder so many of them were later declared bankrupt.
I think this is because the media keep repeat this lie all the time £57M sounds a lot - until you are told most of this went to the worms and parasites.
the government is putting aside around 1billion for compensation according to a article i read in computer weekly i believe. whilst i agree those wronged should be compensated, i do NOT agree it should be tax payers why are POL and Fujitsu, and their shareholders, not paying 100% of the compensation?
Post office and Fujitsu uk are multi million pound companies, biggest scandal in the uk, why did they let this happen , it astonishing that the post office is not closed down , the staff involved should face criminal trial
I have worked with IT systems for more than 4 decades and a Journal file that records every transaction, Time minute second, User I'd, Detail Amount and Any Change amendment deletion to any transaction are provided in all the IT Banking, Accounting, Payroll systems are part of the system.
Privateisation does not work anyone seen the artical by novara media where they got hold of documents from avanti west rail where it clearly states the goverment provide then with further funding to run a less than satisfactory service or between 7-9 out of ten and never a 10 out of ten service. The country is litterally failing and the shocking way privatisation has failed is a sure sign that capatalisum in general is now very questionable
No, it shows that the majority making decisions are completely incompetent re. IT and contracts. Just listen to any politician, or manager in PO and elsewhere. Clueless, lazy and easily bought off.
I can’t help but think the only reason Fujitsu/their lawyers would let this guy be this open is because they feel confident it’s not going to damage their position any further, in contrast to the Fujitsu minions staying tight lipped.
If this witness is to be believed, Fujitsu knew for around 2 decades that the Horizon system was plagued with errors. Therefore unless Fujitsu hid this information from the Post Office, the Post Office executives, in particular Paula Vennells the CEO were aware of the unreliability of Horizon, yet still pursued the draconian policy of wrongfully prosecuting the innocent sub-postmasters. This criminal conspiracy gets worse and worse, if that’s at all possible, reinforcing my opinion that the Post Office management should be charged with any number of crimes, and when found guilty imprisoned.
And we all rely on bank details to be correct , interest to be calculated correctly , accounts to be correct , pensions to be calculated correctly and on it goes and yet very few of us have access to the details and calculations in this modern world . Never trust a spreadsheet unless you can see the formulas .
Worked for POL between 2003 & 2009 at the Post Office Service Centre in Salford. Didn't know of this crap and scandal going on at the time but in hindsight not surprised in the slightest that POL could do this, although overall responsibility lies with the Government as they were and still are the owners of the company. At the end of the day Fuijitsu got the tender as they were the CHEAPEST!!!! Crap software from the very start
This seems to be, if the witness is reliable, damning evidence to show the post office senior staff destroyed peoples lives knowing their prosecutions were false. This is really sick.
This evidence is damming, this witness was highly credible, forthcoming and honest. No attempt to twist, double talk or make excuses, he was open with his evidence and is a credit to the Is public enquiry. The Post Office needs to watch this evidence and their side needs to behave like this when giving evidence. Every single POL witnesses so far, and I’ve watched many many hours, clearly is coached to avoid the tough questions, must be advised to claim amnesia with “I forget”, “i don’t recall” etc. absolutely ridiculous, embarrassing and disgusting. A abhorrent failure of an organisation, who must be held accountable for this matter, without exception and without mercy and good will. Their executive team, and Fujitsu team who are found to have been complicit and responsible, must go to jail.
Fujitsu boss's direct and unequivocal responses are far more impressive than the evidence given by the Post Office boss, who seemed to be either unaware, evasive or perhaps both.
No doubt about it this man should be in prison for the rest of his life, and fujitsu banned from ever doing any form of business by any of its subsidiaries in Britain.
I’d like to know. Did the PO ever claim financial penalties against the contract for Horizon system shortfalls in performance, bugs, errors and defects? Was there a system performance on compliance penalty clause in the contract? 15:11 The courts should have been informed in Fujitsu Witness Statements of the Bugs, Errors and Defects that affect the reliability of the Horizon data. Fujitsu should been held in contempt of court for knowingly providing false statements in court.
Agree that Patterson appears to be sincere. It takes a lot for me to say that in this whole sordid saga in which the cast appear to comprise thickos, arrogant nonentities, amnesiacs, thugs, and unprincipled deflectors. Truly shocking that evidence from some Fujitsu witnesses was either withheld or doctored in order to obtain illegal convictions. Perjury and perverting the course of justice were rife. Immediate action should be taken to bring all those guilty of this to justice as soon as possible.
A national embarrassment. When executives take the salary but are too lazy to do the RIGHT thing! It looks like Fujitsu are the only ones with any honour here. How many P.O. executives have fallen on their swords?
It's amazing how short term all these positions were held by these highly paid jobs. This means none were around long enough apparently to actually get to know their responsibilities. Conveniently this allowed them all to pass the buck to try & evade blame for the 'errors' in management. They were all 'unaware' of any problems. One consistently has to ask what on earth they were being paid for, because their incompetence is truly staggering. If they were not ignorant of what went on then they were complicit in fraud & therefore criminally liable.
The whole scandal is a farce. Both Fujitsu and the post office are fully accountable for their actions. I think some people should be going to prison for this.
His testimony is such a contrast with the obfuscation and deflection we see from the Post Office. Whatever Fujitsu may turn out to be responsible for, at least they're honest and sincerely trying to grapple with it.
This man couldn't have been more honest, if only the Post Office lot and our MPs gave honest answers!
100% agree , seems too decent a bloke to be working for fujitsu ot po!! thank god for some truth in this case.
Fujitsu aren't 100% innocent in this. They denied Michael Rudkin was even at their HQ in Bracknell and got rid of the logbook that day he visited then when he produced the email from them inviting him there they changed their story to he saw a test machine that wasn't connected or live. Who hacked his branch account and made £40,000 go missing? The PO didn't do that Fujitsu did. So yes they are culpable they did inform the PO who ignored it and covered that up but Fujitsu also had a part in it
This evidence seems to be digging a very deep legal hole beneath the Post Office. This guy's candour and willingness to answer questions with a simple 'yes' and 'I agree' is extremely refreshing.
the rest reply can't remember or it was a long time ago,never heard so much people lying about the same subject
Did nobody in the Fujitsu Horizon IT department and especially the Helpdesk and other support groups never read Computer Weekly or Private Eye?
Whereas both Fujitsu and PO middle manager appear to be without moral compass, functioning memory and bereft of basic management ability in their attempts to avoid answering the question and deflecting blame. They really have made our politicians look slick and professional in comparison.
a pound to a pinch of shit they read computer weekly@@Wee_Langside
Yep, shocking to see someone give a one word answer. Obviously not a politician, won't see this at the Covid enquiry for example.
I watched Mr Patterson's evidence in full - he wasn't "cornered" as your tagline suggests - he came across to me as very open and honest - he didn't seek to cover up or defend Fujitsu's involvement at all - he was very candid and forthcoming
Otherwise any future criminal court case would result in him being found guilty of conspiracy to defraud. On that basis I would be very careful giving him to much credit.
He is not comfortable answering the questions. The stress he is going through is clearly on display. I agree with you, that he does appear to be answering honestly.
As far as I am aware two Fujitsu "witnesses" are under investigation for perjury and perverting the course of justice - I would have thought fraud would be difficult to establish in circumstances where Fujitsu appear to have alerted the Post Office to their concerns about the reliability of the audit data. I am not defending Fujitsu in any shape or form I'm just observing that I found this witness refreshingly forthcoming and honest in a shameful case of deception, cover up and wrongful prosecution. @@1inchPunchBowl
@@colinhill7068 As I have pointed out elsewhere, he has no choice at this stage. Any lies could end him in court on criminal conspiracy charges.
If he knew why didn't he do something about it
They should pay the entire compensation bill and the post office top dogs should have their bonuses taken back and all should be facing criminal charges. If any average citizen caused this much harm and suffering said citizen would be locked up for a very long time.
Why should they pay all of it. If they told the customer the correct information about errors but the customer choose to ignore or amend that information, who is at fault
@@marshyman66 Fujitsu sent so called expert witnesses to court on behalf of the PO when they already knew there was an issue with the system. They caused irreparable damage to thousands of individuals by being instrumental in enabling the PO to continue covering it up. They are culpable and caused the whole shit show. The top dogs at the PO should not be spared though. Take their money via multi million pound fines and criminally charge them for at least fraud. The tax payer should not pay a single penny.
And the board of directors.
Withholding exculpatory evidence.
That’s judicial misconduct.
That’s jail time right there
@@fireskycam9889 im holding my breath. Never gonna happen without demonstrations.
Executives who knew about this should be sent to prison for destroying the lives of others.
The Post Office EDITED OUT witness statements from fujitsu that included references to bugs and errors. Absolute bastards.
Couldn’t agree more, it’s a shame that heads are unlikely to roll.
what is your evidence for this statement?
@rewIndustry its been the testimony of a number of witnesses. They edited the statements.
exactly - absolute bastards
So that will be a clear offence of perverting the course of justice.
He seemed slightly taken aback when asked about compensation for relatives of those falsely convicted. One postmaster was disowned by his father and ended up being sectioned three times. Others accused family members of stealing when they couldn't balance the books. What about the families whose wrongly-convicted relative killed themselves? It affected entire families, most of whom will never be the same again. To think such lives were expendable in order to protect a brand (now trashed) is beyond any normal human being's belief. Jail sentences for those in the know MUST follow. Financial punishment won't cut it.
They won 57m in 2019. Did you knew that ?
Yes I knew that. Did you know after paying out the lawyers fees, each wrongly-convicted postmaster was left with just £20,000 each?? And they didn't 'win' anything. Their own money was stolen by the Post Office and then used to fund bonuses. They haven't even been given their own money back. Did you know that? @@marshyman66
Which went mainly on legal fees for the claimants as costs were not ordered against the PO.@@marshyman66
@@marshyman66 Some did. 80% of that went to lawyers. The compensation should 10x, if not 100x that to be made whole.
@@billgreen576 I do not object to that at all. As long as the lawyers get no more. They seem to be on a gravy train here
Having worked in a Bank's IT department, I know that Bugs, errors and defects are common in all major IT systems. The difference in this case is the way the Post office chose to ignore all and any possibilities of the impact of the Bugs and errors on the prosecutions of Postmasters.
Earlier evidence by Fujitsu employees suggests to me, that for a least one issue, the IT personnel thought it was a one off. Anybody who has had dealings with a multi-user systems knows that no fault is a one off, if one person can break a system then another can.
It also appears that faults occurred if the sub-postmaster was working on the system at the same time as the weekly run was taking place at ~7pm. It doesn't seem unreasonable to think that sub-postmasters would be working at that time on any evening but especially when the weekly financial report is going to be run. Why do a major backup when people will be working on the system? why not run in the early hours?
I don't remember ever seeing a software contract (EULA or bespoke development/support contract) that did not say something like "the supplier does not warrant that the software will be defect or error free". Moreover, software development / support contracts focus more on how defects and errors will be remedied when they are found - there is never any doubt that there will be bugs.
20 YEARS an new!! an keep send people to prison !!! So it's new a police matter al should be arrested
With bail
I was shocked to discover that Horizon was written on Visual Basic, a language intended for home/educational use not one for a large commercial programme due to its error reporting and architecture making creation of bugs when first authoring or making modifications/additions quite likely..
@@matthewn1805 Hence the reference to the Windows Error Log in evidence earlier in the week when talking about error handling?
Finally a witness willing to give straight answers and not try to give corporate fluff in their answers
And he's the salesman!!! The irony!!!
I've been watching this inquiry from day 1, and the professionalism and line of questioning by the KC are superb. Each person is asked very gentle question and their responses dissected allowing them to dig some very deep holes.
Agreed. The whole investigative team have been excellent, and totally in command of their brief. Hugely impressive, given the sheer amount of evidence they've had to get to grips with.
KCs are an almost unique group of people who can circle their prey and surgically extract the critical facts, eventually reaching the truth.
If Vennells is unwise enough to give evidence I wonder who will be given the job of unmasking her as a liar. Jason has the factual ammo but he'll need to outwit her. She'll blur the issues and blunt his questions. She will make him look pedantic and bullying. I doubt she'll budge an inch. She is ordained by God remember.
@@martinross5521 Brilliant analogy. The KC's questioning here is quite remarkable and gently presented with total professionalism. The denouement came when the KC stated Fujitsu knew about the system's poor reliability and indeed plethora of bugs for over 2 decades. When the flowchart was analysed there was no mention of the 'known error log'. Carefully concealed by Fujitsu. Checkmate.
@@martinplatt5928 I’ve only been watching the inquiry since the ITV drama. But the people dragged in have been an assortment of liars, avoiders and bullies until the MD arrived. I give him credit for being honest. But why on earth can the PO still hold Second Sight to a confidentiality agreement even now? This should be ripped up before Phase 5 starts. Next week: investigators tell how they blackmailed and bullied postmasters/mistresses into admiring guilt when they were innocent. All done while the government looked the other way 🤬
Clearly, Fujitsu informed the Post Office about the bugs, but the Post Office has decided to ignore this information.
... decided to conceal this information.
i suspected so all along this was a con with in post office and the goverments who inherited this fault.no wonder the tory put a lib dem lacky in charge to take the blame .
The Post Office management and investigators (including the obnoxious scumbag who gave evidence a few days ago) knew perfectly well that there were bugs in the system. They didn't *_ignore_* that; they deliberately concealed this fact and lied in their witness statements in court cases against subpostmasters.
The truth is cruel. This news has even spread around the world the attitude of the UK to hold Japanese companies accountable.
@@KEN-fn2ld The issue appears to be Post Office's response to bugs and errors reported by Fujitsu. Fujitsu,as far as I know, did not prosecute postmasters.
Paul Patterson, good on you for being so succinct and honest
So...Fuji informed the PO as and when a bug was found starting before 2000. Evidence statements provided by Fuji employees which had any reference to bugs were edited by the PO (or their legal team) to remove any reference to system faults. Criminal.
At last someone on here has analysed the reports, evidence and statements and see's what happened.
Perverting the course of justice surely
@@nharper1968 and perjury.
it's ok those ceo have been well looked after by the tory and we told they did all that for free.
Are we expected to believe that none of the Royal Mail’s or Fujitsu’s employees had any knowledge of this whole fiasco? Not ONE whistleblower, over decades.
I cannot wrap my head around the glaring fact that Paula Vennels and her thug-like cohorts were in FULL KNOWLEDGE of Horizon's faults but went full steam ahead anyway of hounding, harassing and prosecuting the innocent submasters and mistresses!
And Paula Vennels is an Anglican priest????
If the whole lot of them don't go to jail, the UK needs to rise up and march in the streets, demanding proper justice and prosecution.
My blood boils.
Mine too!
I feel that, unlike many of his colleagues interviewed this week, Paul Patterson came over very well and seemed to answer the questions honestly and openly.
very well? Posties committed suicide because of Fujitsu's bugs.
@@bigpants6121 I think you have misunderstood my comment. I'm not defending Fujitsu in any way at all. If you have watched the rest of the interviews in full this week you might understand my point. In my opinion many others this week deserve to face criminal action.
Yes totally agree. I’ve now watched all todays evidence and he came over very well and looks like he is very frank and completely honest is his disclosure giving a full comprehensive witness statement that doesn’t try to cover anything up.
you are so gullible and naive.@@stewartsimon8304
@@bigpants6121postmasters thanks
Think it’s worth mentioning, this in my eyes, appears to be the only guy giving straight answers. He wasn’t at the company I don’t believe for much of this, yet appears to be the only taking responsibility.
dont be fooled by his appearance.
He was at Fujitsu from 2012
I've no doubt that Fujitsu senior management, having seen the way the Inquiry has gone thus far, has realised the jig is up and decided to come clean in an attempt to minimise the harm that comes to them. Pleading guilty in the hope of a more lenient sentence, etc.
@@bigpants6121@Milkydrummer did not talk about the guys appearance, my friend. From what I have seen, the persons asked up to this man were non-answering almost every question. This man does answer clearly and openly and admits to knowledge he has, Fujitsu had from as early as 1999 and that many people at Fujitsu have been aware of, about the errors, bugs and defects in the Horizon software. No other person‘s testimony I have seen did that. This man even agreed, that the communication about these errors, bugs and defects should have been included in the information provided to the post office inquiries from the very beginning. No one else questioned before ever admitted to anything like that.
So he appears to be forthcoming, open and willing to honestly answer and not by his appearance.
dont waste my time 'friend' His appearance has everything to do with his culpability.@@SuperArnie
Not once did he say " i dont recall , i can't remember "
Came across as open and provided information and hopefully a commitnent to exonerate and compensate all the Post masters.
He also came across as a CEO who didn't know or didn't care about how the business was run before he joined....😡
you must be an employee of Fujitsu with your support. Get a life muppet.
1. He knows he's bang to rights & culpable as the CEO, & 2. He knows that the response " I dont recall , i can't remember " has been rinsed beyond being a joke now in these inquiries
It's a shame he didn't provide information to the court to stop this misjustice he is as guilty as the rest.
Yeah, he was hardly "cornered" or "grilled". More like "Fujitsu CEO sits in corner and invites stuttering stammering guy to ask any and all questions and answers them honestly and plainly" lol
All postmasters and postmistresses affected should (1)be refunded for financial losses plus interest, (2) receive appropriate compensation for distress and suffering caused and (3) all politicians, senior post office management and post office investigaters should face criminal charges and stand trial for corrupt practices. They were trying to protect the Post Office name and instead have damaged it forever.
I agree 100%. Here are the offences committed:
1. Malicious Prosecution.
2. Perverting The Course Of Justice.
3. Fraud.
4. Malfeasance In Public Office.
As a retired Detective Constable I will happily carryout the arrests, interviews and case file preparation for free. I will also attend each trial as “the officer in the case” for no charge. My investigations would be according to the rules that police officers have to follow to ensure the offenders are treated correctly - PACE (Police And Criminal Evidence Act 1984). There would be no offer of plea bargaining and the offenders would be charged and prosecuted for every offence that they have committed, including perjury. My first arrest would Paula Vennells. I’d like to see how she copes with a custody cell, being photographed and fingerprinted and popped into a Magistrates Court for a committal hearing.
@@stevehaynes2857 Vennells is the one holding the pass the parcel bomb when it went off. There are potentially hundreds of culpable people over the last 35 years.
This guy comes across as being open regarding what he knew, which is refreshing in this case. However, what needs to be at the forefront of this inquiry is that four people committed suicide due to the horrendous treatment they underwent. Not only do the other surviving postmasters need to be properly compensated By Fujitsu and the P.O. but those who knew about faults and conspired to continue regardless need to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. They have blood on their hands and need to be held to account.
I once worked a at a large University in the Marketing Dept. Our call centre had to use a bespoke CM system, that kept crashing. The call centre staff and myself were sent off for training, as we were told by the supplier that we were causing the problems. I asked the "instructor" to show us how the system should work, on the liver server ( not on a local network in their training room ). As they tried to save some incoming call info, their system crashed, and could not be restarted. I then asked the trainer to bring their sales manager into the room, and advised him that they seemed to be in breach of their supplier agreement and asked him why we should be expected to keep paying their monthly license fee, and that we also expected a credit for the last 18 months of their license fee. He was stunned.
The Fujitsu boss is being very open and honest. Not like some on the PO side
Fujitsu certainly was not for the last 20 yrs until caught out. But now you want to give him a free pass? Crikey.
@@1inchPunchBowl he is the only person who has been honest to be fair
@@paulrichards6894Unless he wants to be charged with a criminal cover up & imagine he had no choice.
@@1inchPunchBowl the others claimed amnesia
@@1inchPunchBowl I suggest you re read my comment. It's only 16 words long. Then explain how my post says
1 anything about previous statements from Fujitsu
2 How pointing out the truth on what was said in this hearing is giving him a free pass
Fujitsu seem willing and ready to answer questions and accept facts.
It's so refreshing.
I am used to Government ministers and in Post Office leaders not doing so.
Refreshing.
Yes because the CPS has launched a criminal investigation. Don't be so naive.
do they seem willing to pay the posties? You seem gullible.
@@bigpants6121 Fujitsu has confirmed that they will contribute once the enquiry is complete. Remember the postmasters already won 57m
But not paying compensation!
@@edcoad4930 Fujitsu have state a moral responsibility to pay. What more do you want at this stage
Paul Patterson seems to be the only one so far interviewed in this inquiry that has answered honestly. The Post Office crooks seem to all have developed a bug and glitch in their memory. Ironic
Nothing "cornered" about him. Open, honest, doesn't evade and is precisely what's needed, honesty and transparency. Thank you Mr Patterson.
Simple answers and no amnesia. What a refreshing contrast with BS spouted by others.
Unbelievable coverup from the post office. I feel that they haven't touched the surface with this cover up. I'm sure that they will be plenty more to harvest in this cover up.
Many in the PO deliberately withheld evidence, committed perjury & could be prosecuted for perverting the course of justice
Jail the appropriate people this time
Malice and utter contempt for their employees. Shameful! Not only should heads roll, but there should also be prosecutions of senior management. As for compensation, anyone affected by this should never worry about money for the rest of their lives. Not to be payed for by the tax payer. Jujitsu needs to be liable and Post Office accountable.
incompetence, wrongdoing, fraud, and perjury. fines and jail surely. and a complete moral vacuum amongst the lot
Mr Beer is a top class lawyer/solicitor, he and his team obviously done their Mise en Place.
aka preparation
So why then, was the chief software architect allowed to claim it had none? Their lawyers should have told him that was perjury.
Where did he say that. ?
@@marshyman66Gareth Jenkins, at the previous court testimony.
@@wckoek I need to research that. Give me a day. If he did say that then he wrong. Fundamentals of debugging process
@@marshyman66 mr Jenkins postponed inquiry questioning twice. To save you a day of time, read 'Clark Advice' from Post Office lawyer Simon Clark - Jenkins give evidence at court that convicted the victims saying the system is not "corrupt", the post office lawyer known the evidence is flawed and posed an insurance risk.
I worked in IT for over 30 years. No "software architect", software engineer, analyst, programmer or indeed ANYONE who has worked in software in ANY capacity can claim the software they worked on "has no bugs". It is impossible to prove. One always assumes that there are bugs, you either know about them or they haven't been found yet. Even NASA and military software has bugs, just not as many as commercial software!
Truly truly shocking stuff. Brilliant to be able to watch the inquiry and have the incompetence exposed and hopefully eventually reveal the true offenders
All I'm saying is... thank goodness for Jason Beer ❤❤❤
Bit of a clickbait title- he wasn’t “cornered “, he simply answered the questions put to him without obfuscation.
This was interesting and refreshing. Someone at last being straight.
I think Fujitsu failed to deliver on their service/sales promise and struggled to get on top of the complexity of the challenge they undertook. But in fairness, IT capability in the late 90's and into the "2000's" was in its infancy really. So I have some sympathy towards Fujitsu. Fujitsu are guilty of not doing a good job, but they broke no laws.
Fundamentally this should not be referred to as the 'Horizon Scandal', it should be referred to as the "Post Office Management scandal". The Post Office - and the Post Office alone - repeatedly made the decisions to prosecute and treat the postmasters as they did.
The more Post Office management and executives I see the worse this organisation becomes. Frankly it's about the inept and negligent management by the Post Office leadership team of the business.
The Post Office is guilty in the legal sense, and the directors should be held to account and face prosecution as they have failed in their legally binding duties as directors.
He is the ONLY person in this whole disaster who seems to show any integrity.
I agree. The title of this footage is deeply unfair
Don't believe it. He's worked at Fushitsu since 2010. He knows everything that's been going on. He's just telling you what you want to hear.
Fool me once, fool me twice. Shame on you.
He came into his post in 2019 so he wasn’t even present during all the issues. This is why he is open and confident
He was Fujitsu sales manager in 2010. He would be torn to shreds in a court. He knows all about stitching these innocent people up. I hope he ends up in jail just like our local sub postmaster. @@SarahHanes-bf6ns
Bugs, not glitches. Glitches are technical errors caused by faulty or damaged hardware. Bugs are errors in the code that can (and should) be corrected.
Or an unexpected outcome within a technically working system.
Glitches are a result of an unexpected deign flaw rather than faulty code.
I would ague that the post office used the bugs as an exploit to get more money from people with the legal battle.
This was not all to bugs in software. There were glitches in network performance and also issues with hardware performance at the central location based on resilience design and business continuity process. It was not one thing
@@marshyman66 Exactly. Network latency issues and connectivity drop-outs caused major problems, it seems.
OMG full exposure, they knew and so did Post Office, PAY THE PEOPLE
You can't fix a bug unless the purchaser works with you to resolve it. When the post office is telling sub postmasters there's no problem, and refusing to deliver the information to resolve the error, the bug can't be fixed.
Ah, so Fujitsu are blameless ? Whilst they go around calling the postmasters a 'nasty man?'
@@leroygoldbridge8874 it wasn't fujitsu lying to subpostmasters about the existence of the bugs and prosecuting them. From what I've seen so far, fujitsu have acted in accordence with what the client has requested and tried to remedy the issues while their CLIENT the Post Office refused to work with them to resolve the issue and instead exploited it for financial gain. It was the Post Office DELETING references to the known issues log from the witness statements.
@@MadCatLady28 Rubbish Fujitsu operated the help desk for Horizon therefore would be the first to have knowledge of any bugs, errors etc. Just look at the already reported error reporting/resolving method.
@@matthewn1805. Ok so if you have read that process please tell us all what was wrong with it. Of potential 6 million transactions and 0.002% error rate, so 120 a day the vast majority were scrutinised understood and fixed. You really don't know what you are talking about
We've known this for a long time. Harriet Harmon said it back in 99. Private eye have reported that it was known before it was put into use for years.
Disagree. This guy has admitted, without any pressure, just how appalling his company's behaviour was over the decades.
At least the bloke in the dock held his hands up. Very rare but bang to rights.
The only truthful, engaging interaction I’ve seen in this enquiry!! The rest has been bulls it, legal team, lawyer speak, baseless empty answers, he is either a genius or genuine either way he not avoiding the truth 😮
I first knew about this scandal around 2010, when I read an article about it then. It was obviously an IT issue - I worked as a software engineer - and I simply don't get that any court would believe otherwise.
The whole system is screwed, and we need a (peaceful) revolution.
I read about motorists being fined for pulling into a bus lane as an ambulance was on an emergency call. When appealing the council refused. This lack of care or fairness at the centre of ‘our’ systems is representative of how bad things have become. Discretion gone to be replaced by uncaring compliance. Something rotten at the centre of our institutions.
As someone who's been on the recieving end of multiple system implementations, I'm struggling to see exactly what fujitsu has done wrong - aside from holding back the known error log, which is insane. I use those all the time during a rollout and beyond. But I'd bet money the Post Office requested it to be held back.
The prosecution and the defence teams need to be reviewed as well. The miscarriage of justice lies in their lack of knowledge and integrity
@@MadCatLady28 The KEL (Known Error Log) was fully shared with Post Office.
@@steveevans4299 according to the testimony, it was held back... the full circumstances of the time frame and reason wasn't covered. It was clearly released at some point and shared with the post office, but it's quite clear this information wasn't made available to subpostmasters. I guess this was a while back, but I'm in the KEL all the time for months after any rollout. Most people are, aren't they?
I worked for the NHS for 20 years, there were bugs and defects, errors in the computer systems dealing with patients records which were shared by hospitals across the country. So no computer system operates robustly. The post office needs to cough up compensation immediately and those who have lied and indeed committed grievous harm to the post masters must serve time in person.
My questions would be. Did Fujitsu carry out FAT (factory acceptance test), did they carry out any soak tests, did they carry out a SAT (site acceptance test) did they run this software in shadow or ghost mode such that the existing system could operate as normal with the new software in shadow mode alongside but having no effect on the existing. How long was the pilot period. Was that pilot period carried out at a select set of premises, or across the piece.
Did they in fact at the FAT stage, try their hardest to break the system, hack the system or otherwise knacker it up completely?
I wouldn't trust Fujitsu to empty my bins!
Agreed - Who trained the Postmasters/staff - Training is a Key Factor here with non-technical, middle-age, not I.T. savy staff!
14 million lines of code. 5 tier testing environments (Development & Continuous Integration /System Validation/Live System (inc. Regression) /Volume/Model Office). Joint testing teams POL & FJ. The scandal here is not that an extremely complex IT system had issues, but that Post Masters were considered guilty before being assumed innocent.
i agree with this. Its standard corporate shittines that Fujitsu did what they did however that does not mean that they were making the PO prosecute PM's.@@steveevans4299
Fujitsu had a covert team who could remotely access the accounts!
First witness who seems to be truthful. Although it’s unforgivable that they did not intervene when they were fully aware of what was going on. They stonewalled any requests from Postmasters before it went public
Utterly shameful. How many lives destroyed? And so many in power complicit!
4 took their own lives
Same systems and practices in the dwp. 300k excess deaths in 14 years after a national hunt for scroungers and fraudsters. Social murder.
It was because it's political, the P. O. bosses grovelling to the government. On the greasy pole, no one gives a shit.
Do you happen to read The Sun?
@@pi5549I think the suicides were reported elsewhere. Regardless, if you find yourself in huge debt beyond your assets or savings and being vilified in your local community for theft when you've done nothing untoward, I'm sure it will have a serious negative impact!.
So hard to watch, especially when he dodges the most important questions - when did FJ find out data is used for prosecutions (avoided answering - they knew all along and were "defending integrity of horizon"), why bugs never made it to witness statements (non-answer, but it's fairly obvious it had to come from the top if everybody did it and had to involve FJ legal), why are error logs not part of data for prosecutions (non-answer, it was clearly on purpose so HZ bugs don't come out). He has to stop pretending it was somebody else's job - he was the account director at a critical time and by far the biggest deal was HZ. He has to know he and his firm had the responsibility to disclose this to the court, not just post office.
Mr Patterson is guilty of course, but he has been candid & honest unlike others who have sat in the same seat.
I still don't understand as to how these postmasters were convicted without any evidence of stealing? That means there's something wrong with our criminal system! 😮
This CEO has just removed the post office's safety net and cut their harness line, then pushed them out on the broken trapeze.
He has made it clear that the post office didn't care about justice or integrity just conviction rates because that meant bonuses all round. From the top down this is an operation that perverted the course of justice for hundreds of instances, Vennells and her minions should be prosecuted for every single case. Then sentenced for each one separately the sentences to run consecutively, in order that they know on year x day y in prison they are there because they destroyed the life, character and reputation of z. It will probably need a prison to be built just for them, the wings can be named after those who took their own lives because of it except for one. The Grenfell wing is for those responsible for killing 71 people, built in the hope that it will house them during their sentences.
This guys has obviously taken over at Fujitsu after the scandal, and is now trying to make the best of an untenable situation by taking responsibility for Fujitsu's part in this. Fujitsu were always acting in their own self-interest, and trying to show a working system when the system had fundamental flaws and errors from the start, and have realised the jig is up, and are now doing everything they can to be seen to be cooperating because they know that from here on, they are in serious, serious trouble.
I would suspect this is going to cost Fujitsu at least £1B in terms of compensation and redress, and Gareth Jenkins amongst others has to answer for not providing the proper evidence at trial.
This is a story of a complex I.T. system VERSUS hundreds of middle-aged, non-technical individuals who were poorly trained to understand or operate it. Then add in the Post Office Executives (Time Lag Factor) who acted as judge, jury and executioner because the system was "unsafe" from the outset. The technical errors were compounded by Post Office executives delays and half-truths and lives were ruined. The Post Office "a communication company", failed to communicate with Fujitsu and its Postmasters, in other words CRAP LEADERSHIP & MANAGEMENT all at public expense. Shame on all parties . . . .
Exactly
I think this is like the titanic where everyone was told it was 'unsinkable' - only to find the opposite was the case. But sister ships at the time had known stress fractures but this was only known to engineers.
Why hasn't the IT manager been compelled to answer questions?
Many of those people who was employed by the Post office and Fujitsu was complicit in giving spurious evidence which sent many innocent sub -postmasters to be convicted because of the impact of their evidence, to such an extent that it caused false criminal convictions, imprisonments, loss of livelihood and homes, debt and bankruptcy and took a dramatic toll on victims and their families, leading to stress, illness, divorce and even worse than that, suicides.
Why should these deplorable people that lied and hide the truth from the police enquires, not themselves be sent to prison for their act of perjury by preventing the course of justice from reaching the rightful decision, by returning verdicts of not guilty of all these cases brought to trial.
In the drama a union official visits the Fujitsu office in Bracknell but then a coverup follows where there are denials the union official ever visited.
"well known to all parties"
"Where sub-postmasters aware of those bugs?"
Easy.
No.
@@iainwares6361. Yes. They won there case in 2019
Given that they reported them, to some extent they were aware. However the bugs were not taken into sufficient consideration by Post Office Prosecutors, and Post Masters were told they were 'the only ones' with those reported issues.
Not until much later on, I ran a PO and I was not told of these issues.
His testimony is that the sub-postmasters didnt know about the bugs to provide a suitable defence
I’ve been watching many of these sessions and SO FAR this guy is the most honest and straightforward IN MY personal view and he doesn’t display the incredible arrogance displayed by many others in the legal and security teams - Gary
As someone who has worked in IT for 40 years if the contractor informed the client of issues / bugs and the client (post office) did nothing or manipulated the reports the contractor has done all they could. They are now trying to salvage reputation and ongoing contracts by dropping the post office in it. Yes very bad software system. But post office management basically morally corrupt.
Totally agree
Most galling is that this guy is likely to get away without jail time and with his multi-million pension intact. And taxpayers (me!) will end up paying for what he and his cronies have done.
He doesn’t stumble over his answers, he looks directly back, he doesn’t fidget, he doesn’t take long pauses or look away for prolonged periods. You can tell straight away when someone is lying and when someone is telling the truth. And this is the first clip I’ve seen of anyone displaying what you would expect of someone telling the truth.
How to open records and see where bugs errors and defects had occurred was surely due to be taught to the SPM's so that the errors could be corrected.
This is quite damning, because any corporate organization who would think they had a chance in this scenario would never be this forthcoming. No way
They're aware that they aren't liable because they've acted correctly. Hence the transparency.
I agree, but don't Fujitsu have an obligation to inform authorities if they felt the Post Office were prosecuting under false information ? @@MadCatLady28
puts more blame on post office. It was them that decided to prosecute. Fujitsu tried to cover faults in software.@@MadCatLady28
Who did FJ pass the bug log to at the Post Office - a fairly simple question that does not seem to be answered here. Ie who was responsible there for raising this issue up the management line 16:55
None of the prosecution’s could have happened without their lawyers acting like criminals
If there is no jail time for anyone, the whole system is broken.
I will be flabbergasted if anyone goes to prison. Lawyers will drag it out for donkeys years.
People are commenting that £57 million was won in the earlier case, most of that money went to legal fees because the Court did not award Costs against the PO. The disgraceful thing I learnt today was the charge that Fujitsu made for its staff attending Court as witnesses for the PO in many cases. Just one case today Fujitsu charged £20.000 for one witness.. I hope someone asks how much Fujitsu made from these Court Cases, those charges would have been added to any costs that the convicted Sub Postmasters/Mistresses would have had to pay. No wonder so many of them were later declared bankrupt.
I think this is because the media keep repeat this lie all the time £57M sounds a lot - until you are told most of this went to the worms and parasites.
the government is putting aside around 1billion for compensation according to a article i read in computer weekly i believe. whilst i agree those wronged should be compensated, i do NOT agree it should be tax payers why are POL and Fujitsu, and their shareholders, not paying 100% of the compensation?
Post office and Fujitsu uk are multi million pound companies, biggest scandal in the uk, why did they let this happen , it astonishing that the post office is not closed down , the staff involved should face criminal trial
Thank goodness he at least can say "yes" and knows what it means.
At last a witness who remembers, does recall and hasn't used hindsight. Stitched the Post Office like a kipper.
I have worked with IT systems for more than 4 decades and a Journal file that records every transaction, Time minute second, User I'd, Detail Amount and Any Change amendment deletion to any transaction are provided in all the IT Banking, Accounting, Payroll systems are part of the system.
Privateisation does not work anyone seen the artical by novara media where they got hold of documents from avanti west rail where it clearly states the goverment provide then with further funding to run a less than satisfactory service or between 7-9 out of ten and never a 10 out of ten service. The country is litterally failing and the shocking way privatisation has failed is a sure sign that capatalisum in general is now very questionable
It's not capitalism, it's human beings are always the problem.
No, it shows that the majority making decisions are completely incompetent re. IT and contracts.
Just listen to any politician, or manager in PO and elsewhere.
Clueless, lazy and easily bought off.
I would suggest learning how to spell capitalism before commenting on economic systems.
Impressive witness dealing honestly with an indefensible position. Refreshing and the absolutely correct way to proceed.
First honest witness without amnesia so far.
This guy seems honest, and knows Fujitsu screwed up big time.
I can’t help but think the only reason Fujitsu/their lawyers would let this guy be this open is because they feel confident it’s not going to damage their position any further, in contrast to the Fujitsu minions staying tight lipped.
Were fujitsu procecuting Pm's if not tjen its on the P0.@@andyb3666
Fujitsu - AND the PO - AND the (only) shareholder i.e. UK government ;)
So refreshing to see someone being honest. Fujitsu, wrote a report of the bugs to the Post Office and . . . . . . . .!
I'm seeing Steve Coogan playing this guy in the blockbuster remake.
Paula Vennells must serve a long prison sentence for this.
At last a person of integrity
you are so naive and gullible.
If this witness is to be believed, Fujitsu knew for around 2 decades that the Horizon system was plagued with errors. Therefore unless Fujitsu hid this information from the Post Office, the Post Office executives, in particular Paula Vennells the CEO were aware of the unreliability of Horizon, yet still pursued the draconian policy of wrongfully prosecuting the innocent sub-postmasters. This criminal conspiracy gets worse and worse, if that’s at all possible, reinforcing my opinion that the Post Office management should be charged with any number of crimes, and when found guilty imprisoned.
Unlike Enron there is absoluely no chance of anyone being sent down.
And we all rely on bank details to be correct , interest to be calculated correctly , accounts to be correct , pensions to be calculated correctly and on it goes and yet very few of us have access to the details and calculations in this modern world . Never trust a spreadsheet unless you can see the formulas .
Worked for POL between 2003 & 2009 at the Post Office Service Centre in Salford. Didn't know of this crap and scandal going on at the time but in hindsight not surprised in the slightest that POL could do this, although overall responsibility lies with the Government as they were and still are the owners of the company.
At the end of the day Fuijitsu got the tender as they were the CHEAPEST!!!!
Crap software from the very start
My man's questioning is breathtaking. Accurate, fair, relentless.
This seems to be, if the witness is reliable, damning evidence to show the post office senior staff destroyed peoples lives knowing their prosecutions were false. This is really sick.
This evidence is damming, this witness was highly credible, forthcoming and honest. No attempt to twist, double talk or make excuses, he was open with his evidence and is a credit to the
Is public enquiry.
The Post Office needs to watch this evidence and their side needs to behave like this when giving evidence. Every single POL witnesses so far, and I’ve watched many many hours, clearly is coached to avoid the tough questions, must be advised to claim amnesia with “I forget”, “i don’t recall” etc. absolutely ridiculous, embarrassing and disgusting. A abhorrent failure of an organisation, who must be held accountable for this matter, without exception and without mercy and good will.
Their executive team, and Fujitsu team who are found to have been complicit and responsible, must go to jail.
Fujitsu boss's direct and unequivocal responses are far more impressive than the evidence given by the Post Office boss, who seemed to be either unaware, evasive or perhaps both.
No doubt about it this man should be in prison for the rest of his life, and fujitsu banned from ever doing any form of business by any of its subsidiaries in Britain.
I’d like to know.
Did the PO ever claim financial penalties against the contract for Horizon system shortfalls in performance, bugs, errors and defects?
Was there a system performance on compliance penalty clause in the contract?
15:11 The courts should have been informed in Fujitsu Witness Statements of the Bugs, Errors and Defects that affect the reliability of the Horizon data. Fujitsu should been held in contempt of court for knowingly providing false statements in court.
It’s taken the Post Office years just to say “ sorry”
A very misleading headline for this video.
Agree that Patterson appears to be sincere. It takes a lot for me to say that in this whole sordid saga in which the cast appear to comprise thickos, arrogant nonentities, amnesiacs, thugs, and unprincipled deflectors. Truly shocking that evidence from some Fujitsu witnesses was either withheld or doctored in order to obtain illegal convictions. Perjury and perverting the course of justice were rife. Immediate action should be taken to bring all those guilty of this to justice as soon as possible.
Wish this man had worked for the Post Office, as he’s the only one being honest 👍
A national embarrassment.
When executives take the salary but are too lazy to do the RIGHT thing! It looks like Fujitsu are the only ones with any honour here. How many P.O. executives have fallen on their swords?
It's amazing how short term all these positions were held by these highly paid jobs. This means none were around long enough apparently to actually get to know their responsibilities. Conveniently this allowed them all to pass the buck to try & evade blame for the 'errors' in management.
They were all 'unaware' of any problems. One consistently has to ask what on earth they
were being paid for, because their incompetence is truly staggering. If they were not ignorant of what went on then they were complicit in fraud & therefore criminally liable.
Every system goes live with bugs and defects. This is part of the testing process and user sign-off. Every single system. Everywhere.
The first honest witness to appear at the inquest
The whole scandal is a farce. Both Fujitsu and the post office are fully accountable for their actions. I think some people should be going to prison for this.
A large number of people.
His testimony is such a contrast with the obfuscation and deflection we see from the Post Office. Whatever Fujitsu may turn out to be responsible for, at least they're honest and sincerely trying to grapple with it.