What if the Ottomans Colonized America?
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- Опубліковано 15 тра 2024
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Of all the great empires, how the Ottomans never colonized America. What if they were given a chance? Would they take it? How exactly could things have changed if the Muslim powers had reached the Americas first? Here is one scenario.
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Chapters:
0:00 Intro
1:23 How It Came To This
6:05 How Colonization Would Work
10:15 No Spanish
14:20 Continued
Going to do some Christmas type episode for the end of the year but have no idea what to do yet so, uh, suggestions welcome.
What if Constantine didn’t become emperor?
If that’s too big a project, what about “what if WWI ended in a stalemate/negotiated peace?”
What if Christmas stayed in the summer?
What if Christianity never existed?
Ye
What if there was land in the North Pole?
The ice doesn’t count
Nice video. Probably the biggest reason why they didn’t colonise the Americas was simply that, like most non-African/non-western European countries, they didn’t feel that they needed to. Ottoman merchants were already active in the Indian Ocean and had good relations with south Asian and SE Asian states such as Gujarat and Aceh. Alternative routes to the subcontinent would have been unprofitable.
Well, also they kinda couldn’t. Ever since the enormous loss at La Panto the Ottoman navy was mostly confined to their maritime borders.
yeah , the crusader states where in a sense the proto colonized state , the arabs afther the first caliphate wheren't into colonizing anymore
Yup, Austria Hungary didn’t have any colonies either despite having the opportunity at the Berlin conference, and Russia didn’t have any overseas colonies except Alaska which was more an extension of their Siberian expansion. It tended to be that large multiethnic land empires didn’t also colonize overseas as much.
@@davidegaruti2582 this is actually not true. Ask, eastern Africa about it. Or the large amounts of slaves they took from them (to the point a slave rebellion was more properly classified as a civil war) Secondly, muslims had repeatedly attempted to colonize India. In fact, its strangely something they are told to do.
@@samr6408 technically jts incorrect if you remembered what Austria and Russia did to Poland.
I’d love to visit the state of Caliph-ornia.
LOOOOOOOOOOL
Then why not create it now 😉
@@user-ot2yz7it7i As if California isn't enough of a Hellhole
It's already named after a Caliphate. There was a book from the 1500s with the fictional island of California which ruled by a Califa or female Calif/Caliph in Spanish. It was popular among the conquistadors and they named the area after it.
@@user-ot2yz7it7i Inshallah one day
Fun fact: Columbus had offered Bayazid II to go and search the new world but he refused.
Wowwww
Bayazid the second kında made ottoman empire bad,that wasnt the ONLY bad decision he made
@@funnyvalentine9110 he was a smart ruler better than we have any in present time . But his son yauz selim was something else
Hayreddin Barbarossa actually wanted to do expeditions to the Americas to compete with the Spanish and the Portuguese but the Ottoman higher command told him the Med sea is the priority.
It seems Hayreddin was interested in the New World and the open seas but the Ottoman government from its sultan, viziers and the higher commanders told him to forget such plans.
Geography bro
I also really like how you linked the Iberian colonisation of the Americas to the reconquista. Mediterranean historian Dr Mohammad Ballan discussed this recently as well. The religious driven element of the colonisation of the new world was in many ways a continuation of the reconquista and Iberian expeditions against muslim north Africa .
Thanks! Originally I was going to focus much more on that aspect. Like how Spain's ultimate goal with their empire was to retake the Holy Land, yet colonization and wars with their neighbors took them on a different path. It's something that I really want to talk about more one day.
@@user-op8fg3ny3j I think so. In many ways it was sort of this “catch all” colonial term that Portuguese, Spanish and sometimes other W. Europeans used to refer to Arabs, Berbers and Muslims in general. It’s a bit like the word “Saracen” but more encompassing.
@@AlternateHistoryHub please make that video.
I actually have had him as a professor
Reading a book on the Portuguese explorations also talks about that. The Christendom felt trapped between Muslims all around so there was a "desperate" attempt to bring most places to become Christian and they actually feared, after finding the Americas, that a portion of natives might have been already converted to Islam.
I've had this question in my head for a while. And I've always come at it from the idea of "unable to bring himself to kill his beloved siblings, the new Sultan exiles his kin across the sea with their retainers, who land in the Americas and create their own Empire."
Pretty interesting idea
Part 4 ????
that actually sounds pretty cool
Write a book based on such idea, good sir.
Surely, you stand to make a decent profit from it!
Not even Europeans did that why would Turks
It's really good to point out that Arab/Muslim influence in Indonesia was never based on conquest, but trade. Local kingdoms in Malacca and Java converted slowly over time in order to better engage in trade with the Arab traders from the west.
Even to this day, Islam in Malaysia and Indonesia is quite different from how it's practiced in Arab countries (which also vary).
So, assuming that the native populations of the Americas have a chance to bounce back after the initial plagues, you might see that kind of trade relationship.
That's a big IF though, because the devastation of those plagues do present an opportunity for exploitation by any foreigner in a position to do so.
Perang padri : im a joke to you
@@baskara3954 Perang padri is a war between the native and the dutch in west Sumatra, so no it was not spread to the native by violence
@@baskara3954 Are you a Batak?
@@anandantor99 no im muslim
Islam isn’t different here in Indonesia. Our school of thought is a Hanafi majority, which isn’t Indonesian at all
When practiced properly without bid’ah no one could tell the difference between an Indonesian, Indian, or Arab Muslim. The only thing differentiating ourselves is our architectural and fashion motifs as well as language.
Minor correction at 9:59: "High Ottoman" was NOT Persian, neither was it a spoken language. It was literary and legislative prose, rather than a proper language.
Mistakes like these have led me to believe that he doesnt actually know a lot about the Ottomans...
This is standarz knowledge
@@ArdaSRealno, it’s not ‘’standarz’ knowledge’ because I didn’t know that until @skullsforerlikkhansthrone9306 pointed that out. Not everyone specializes in that shit nor is everyone an historian
@@SparklRebel it is standarz knowledge, he literally has a history channel and makes a video about the ottomans, it shows that he lacks basic information about what language they even spoke...that is not "specialised information"
@@ArdaSReal I speak Persian and couldn't understand most of it. But there was a significant amount of Persian words that made me able to kind of guess what a particular sentence means. If the grammar was Persian along side the words, it would have made it much more understandable to me. It is clearly based on Turkish, but with a large amount of Persian loan words.
@---1001--- yes exactly it's basically turkish in structure but woth persian and arab vocabulary
Cody: A Islamic Spain results in an Ottoman America
Turkish Nationalists: bring the time machine we have work to do
Moroccans: *I'll join.*
Turkish nationalist do not want anything to do with colonizing other parts of the world. The world nationalist literally means to keep it to your own nation. Now Neo-Ottomans, people who are islamist and want an other Islamic empire. They are already working on that time machine in the basement of their carpet washing shop using broken washer and microwave parts.
@@denizcaprak2442 HAHA yeahh
@@denizcaprak2442 slap some zam-zam water into it and Insyaallah the machine shall work
@@imalicornbuthalal6646 lira is too weak to import zam zam. Can they use some water blessed by a imam?,
A little point I'd like to bring up. The Ottomans probably would not have rushed colonisation like the Spanish did as you said. However, would it not be likely that unwanted or repressed cultures would have been inclined to try their luck elsewhere as well? I can imagine some christian minories in the Balkans, shia and other temporary persecuted groups would have similary tempted to start fresh in the New World similar to christians down on their luck for Spain and Britain.
I think while they might have wanted to try even if they did hear about it, its that they wouldn't have the power to do it without permission from the Ottomans/dominate power. It would all depend if they'd be kicked out and thus forced to settle like the african, greek and balkan planation slaves in the video or if the powers that be just let them stay. I really doubt that the Ottomans where going to let some greeks get their hands on an ocean going and likely military vessel without being notified and good luck going across the Atlantic on a Mediterranean fishing boat.
Spain had literally banned unwantwd minorities from moving to the Americas. This fiction of “le persecute group move to le america for le new begin” has only ever even remotely happened for radical protestants of England who were only allowed to move because there were so so few people in English colonies UNLIKE SPAIN
in the 16th and 17th centuries these minorities weren’t as repressed as in the 19th. in fact the christian minorities you mentioned made up a significant chunk of the military, so most likely the colonies will be partially christian anyways. and why would the shiites move to the americas when they could simply move to neighbouring iran
@N Gaming yeah I’m not sure the caliphates in spain had it in them to go conquesting in America. They didn’t do it in europe. Ottomans on the other hand if kicked out from europe might have tried it.
@N Gaming true after all morocco did have plans to team up with england to partition spains empire in our timeline
Ottoman fanfic is exactly what I was hoping for. They were so strong but being locked in hindered them. Fantastic production
I am absolutely fascinated by what these alternate cultures would look like. How they would spring out of alternative political economies, different languages, and new types of food? You should do more videos like this one, I love it and keep up the good work!
Kubidde Tacos.
Very Interesting how you talked a lot about the Cordoba Emirate for a while, As that would be more realistic compared to having an Ottoman America.
Ottoman not a race they were a royal family
While its a really interesting scenario, being brazilian of portuguese descent and a fan of my ancestors history, it gives me the chills. Imagine the damned moors colonizing my country… horrible. Lol
@@Nimai_Aquino but they would have probably treated your ancestors better 🤷♂️ moors weren’t really aggressive, they were highly intelligent and creative
@@splintercell5551 bro this is so big i dont think we would exist
@@blackblack6032 Nah
Great video. Historically, Austria Hungary didn’t have overseas colonies either despite having the opportunity at the Berlin conference, and Russia didn’t have any overseas colonies except Alaska which was more an extension of their Siberian expansion. It tended to be that large multiethnic land empires didn’t also colonize overseas as much.
Well the key words there are "land empires"
You can't colonize somewhere across the world without the naval capability to supply and defend them.
A colony takes a long time to grow and create. It's dependant on its home country for a long time before becoming self sufficient, if at all.
So a country like Austria Hungary and Russia would need to first set up a colony. Then consistently send supply ships to them, settlers and investments, over a multi generational timespan. At which point any number of things could go on in their home country that puts the kaibash on the whole thing.
"Is it worth it to us?" Is the real question. And the answer is heavily dependant on the state of the nation asking itself that.
In 250 years there might be people asking "why didn't Germany or Pakistan colonize Mars?"
@@alexanderrahl7034 exactly
yes they just colonized neighboring land
Although the ottomans arguably did have overseas territories in eritrea and yemen
@@mint8648 I don't think I would count those though
Loved everything about this video, the fact that it's a sequel to a recently made video allowing for some cool continuity, as well as exploring a super interesting topic deeply. I've been subscribed for years, and this is what I always wanted the channel to be! Great work
"Plausible" is a very underrated term in alternate history scenarios. In just about every long-term scenario, it is impossible to predict what the effects of a change would be (especially big ones) because we can't account for unknowns - the actions of obscure or un-recorded figures, freak occurences, the new generations of completely different people that were never born in our timeline.
In that regard, this is a perfectly viable scenario. An educated guess (or an exploration of multiple possibilities) is the best one can do.
One thing worth noting is that historically, Muslim empires often also had a very different attitude when it came to non-believers compared to Christian empires, if only for expedience's sake - so-called "people of the book" (meaning Christians, Jews and Zoroastrians) were often tolerated in exchange for a special tax, which was originally supposed to be an incentive for people to convert over time, but in some cases ended up being such a worthwhile source of income that some Islamic rulers actually wanted their non-Muslim subjects to remain as such. In some places, like Africa or India, the local religions were also often included under that umbrella of tolerance for the sake of stability. I assume something similar might happen in an America discovered by Islamic powers - Islam would mainly spread as a result of trade (like it did in Indonesia) instead of through the sword like Christianity in our timeline's America.
Zoroastrians were not considered part of « people of the book » since that religion is not Abrahamic
@@saguntum-iberian-greekkons7014 Yea they are majoosi or mushrikeen, but they still paid the jizyah. A small correction for OP.
Imagine having to pay a tax for not believing in a fictional character...
@@GoatOfWar Considering in this scenario everyone was part of some form of religion, I'm not sure you're barking up the right tree there.
@@saguntum-iberian-greekkons7014 While they aren't an Abrahamic religion, some Islamic rulers did extend the definition of "people of the book" to include them.
Hey I think an important aspect you underrated is how much the around 200 years would be dramatically different, as the Guarani had been forming a fledgling empire in the Brazilian coast, and all of the civilizations on the Andes being very different, and with the fact that the Muslim might not attack them so drastically might make native american states independent from colonization and just allied to one of the world powers a real possibility.
Whether they were building an empire or not, they would still be devastated by the diseases, so until their population recovered, they wouldn't be able to do much, so they wouldn't be very relevant overall
He mentioned how Mexico would be English dominated when this would be unlikely.
For one, the Aztecs nearly kicked out the Spanish in our timeline.
In addition, the Aztecs would probably be gone in another 200 years as their empire was already beginning to decline (even before Cortez).
Hence its possible that the Tarascans might replace them as the next great mesoamerican empire.
And unlike the Aztecs, the Tarascans didn't have human sacrifice that made it easy for people like Cortez to gain native allies against them.
And as far as disease goes, fewer people comming, and the Native Empires surviving, means far fewer people would die, and far more Natives being born.
Meaning southern Mexico might be Tarascan speaking.
do you think civilizations like the aztecs and incas would still exist by the time Cordoba arrives?
@@damicool2000 the video mentioned how, with the cordobans not having a dire need for colonies like Spain and Portugal, colonization would be MUCH slower, giving populations more than enough time to get close to pre contact levels, especially in places like Chile or the Andes that would be reached later. And considering how the decaying Aztecs almost thrashed the conquistadors while ravaged by disease and attacked by the many native American enemies they'd made, AND that expedition had most of Spain's resources behind it, while the Muslim Iberians wouldn't consider it such a priority...
It kinda seams like a big deal
@@ricardoludwig4787 Cortes was a wanted man in Cuba, he departed the island with just a couple hundred of men in a rush to not be convicted. He was quite lacking in everything.
Despite that, the only drawback they suffered was their expulsion of Tenochtitlan, so I don't know why people thinks that the spaniards were about to lose when in fact was quite an easy and fast conquest
Great video as always, Cody. Your in depth look at these scenarios is fantastic. I'm sure that a great majority of your talking points are left on the cutting room floor so that you can give us a concise and entertaining video without being an hour long (I would welcome the hour!!). Also, your NordVPN sketch gave me many chuckles. Cheers!
This actually sounds like a much better timeline. Crazy how much a single historical event can change everything. You could travel back in time, and (assuming you somehow don't screw everything up) cause the entire timeline to Tokyo drift into a new reality.
SCP 001 momento
Imagine having the ability of seeing all possible outcomes and timelines. Then, imagine people choosing the wrong paths. Later on, they ask for your help despite you giving them blatantly better paths in the past.
Example, "Wealth would set us free."
Opportunity of significant wealth arises but, the requirements are...
Don't meet the requirements. You personally try to help. They attack you.
Ship sails and they're stuck on the path of slavery.
Example 2: "Our country has never been truly sovereign. The outsiders have always controlled us."
Opportunity to free them culturally and make them dominant against all the odds arises. The requirements to install are...
They choose the path of slavery. You even personally get involved. They still choose the side leading to slavery.
The main point, free will is a beautiful thing. Just because a person or entity can free your people doesn't mean you'll choose the right path. What matters is you have the option. I know from personal experience that even telling people in plain English what the requirements are will still be left to their free will. Fortunately, this is a diverse reality and there's always other people more than happy to listen.
And with that, Cody's winter wonderland of confusion and terror was created, leading to a ten part Alt. History series that would end with how Deadliest Warrior would change in the timeline.
I love the alternate historical scenes you start these videos with.
It really helps me imagine what everyday people would be experiencing in this world.
Unrelated question, but what is the music at 8:30?
@@yellomango_6440 your mom
That episode blew my mind!
So many possibilities!
Good video. Do part 3 if you really want
Would Italy get absorbed by the Ottomans?
Id imagine that a sort of French monarchy would be forcefully absorbing Italy to keep it away from the Ottomans.
Then we might get a sort of Belgium situation, with the native Italians demanding to be given indipendence.
Or maybe italy forcefully unifies under the Popes influence.
@N Gaming (Muslim) Pirates of the Carribean
@N Gaming Id also imagine that thein regards to the far east(like China, Japan and Indochina) the local leaders might be more trusting of europeans, since they want to avoid getting converted to islam. Hell, maybe Christian Europe bans slavery much Early.
@N Gaming Plus in the video i sense a possibility that if eastern European people(polìsh, hungarians and all those you know) are used as slaves in the caribbeans, the many European kingdom would gladly support the rebellious slaves( perhaps creating a parallel similar to the one of France help the American settlers gain Indipendence)
@N Gaming Still, they would support any slave rebellion if it pisses off the cordobans and the ottomans
What if Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth won the Northen War and established themselves as a great power avoiding partitions in the process?
Yes
Then the world would be truly perfect
World Peace
*YES*
Then I could make a joke about the polish girl in my history class having a lithuanian boyfriend
Oversimplified and Alternate History Hub upload in the same week; this truly is a Christmas miracle
Can't wait for part 3.
With gradual colonization, it’s interesting to think what would happen with native empires like the Aztec and Inca. If their populations could recuperate from the inevitable epidemics and they were left by the Muslims as states with which to trade knowledge and weaponry, it’s not implausible that they could’ve modernized and become the first American nation-states.
muslim aztecs, imagine. lmao
I don't think the Aztec will, since they were on the verge of collapse due to their aggressive nature, maybe the kingdoms around it take frontal focus.
@@trla6505 i agree, the inca tho.... I mean, look at that messaging system...
@@lordmeow now that's a good food for thought
@N Gaming m8, its an alt hist vid, allow it.
I love your channel keep up the great stuff
14:16 WHERE IS PART 3?
“Someone would stumble across Brasil accidentally”
Pedro Álvarez Cabral: *Hello There*
Considering that variolation against smallpox was being used in Istanbul for centuries before the West had inoculation, it would be interesting to know whether Ottomans who were familiar with the practice could have stopped Smallpox having such a huge impact in the New World if they had recognised an epidemic starting and shared some of their knowledge. Variolation did come with a risk of infection, but it may still have been enough to prevent enough deaths to collapse empires and civilisations the way the epidemics did in the 16th Century. Yes you would have still had other diseases that the native populations had no resistance to, but again, 200 years more to developed medical treatment and inoculation, 200 years less for those diseases to run rampant before the advent of modern medicine like antibiotics and vaccinations (assuming it developed at similar rate in this timeline).
@N Gaming bro you are copy pasting the same text under every comment, please touch grass
@N Gaming Wow a lot of the shit you said is straight up wrong lmao.
I think that the disease would have ended up spreading faster than the knowledge of it's infection, and while it would decrease casualties (especially long term), I think the native populations would still have been decimated by those diseases
I don't see why it would have been in the Ottamans interests to share the knowledge and prevent the deaths though
The Inca an Aztec had higher survival rate compared to other indigenous communities. Probably because they were more advanced than the other cultures and they had plenty of food reserves. That's why the genetic pool of the people who inhabited these areas, Ecuador, Peru and Bolivia in the case of the Incas, and Guatemala and southern Mexico is still mostly indigenous.
So with the help of ottoman knowledge, the survival rate would've been higher, and because of this help, the native empires would've seen the ottomans as allies, adopting many aspects of their culture and probably converting to Islam eventually.
Hey I loved your alternate country's video would like if would make more
I'm honestly soo excited for Savannah Runner. As a person with dyslexia I find it so hard to actually read a book. But with Cody's work I find it soo enjoyable and fun even if I have to read a page twice or three times. I have my copy of Savannah Runner pre ordered and wait patiently for August.
Was expecting a Christmas or wintery episode this late into December but this works too.
Different kind of Turkey :P
He said ones coming soon in his message. Suggestions are welcome.
It's only the 11th of december...
@@TehMehKehIen
Hence why I said wintery. Could talk about Scandinavia or anything about snow really.
@N Gaming k
When the Ottomans find Turkeys (the bird), would they call them France? :>
We turks call turkey india
In Greek we call them “French bird” lol
Franks
white flags made in France
@@scientistx5717 hindi, to be exact
Well done 👏🏾
choose your own alternate history! i love it!!
As for the pinned comment, you could do "What if Christmas Island developed nukes before the US in WW2?" as a complete joke, like some sort of Hearts of Iron playthrough where you make one country overpowered for no reason lmao
I approve this message
"What if Sierra Leone colonised The Moon?"
@@TomJohnson67 "What If Zimbabwe beat the Soviets in the Cold War?"
What if Grand Fenwick (accidentally) conquered the US during the Cold War?
What if the archipelago of Japan suddenly industrialised and conquered all of East Asia?
I feel like there would probably be a coalition to prevent the expansion of ottoman power if they weren't competing with the Iberians something along the lines of a Perso-Russian-Polish-Holy Roman coalition attempting to undermine any attempts at ottoman expansion due to the sheer amount of power the Ottomans would hold, cannot forget how important the idea of the Concert of Europe was in shaping diplomacy in Europe, as a Muslim Spain would also probably drive the French and English to align more closely and curb Islamic influence in Western Europe.
@N Gaming I'll be honest don't know why you're saying this, my comment was about the idea that if Iberia was muslim the golden age of the Ottomans would last longer and that because of that a coalition would form to curb such influence as well as an alignment of England and France in the west to prevent Islamic influence from spreading in Western Europe due the Andalusian Iberia, so you talking about colonization doesn't make much sense
@@perkele2040 don't talk to them there all over the comments spaming this shit
I’m happy that you made this video series so detailed. Most videos claim that if the Muslims held onto Iberia, it would be the end of the world or something, not actually thinking that the Muslims could also invent new things, such as better navies and communication. This has made the video extremely unbiased to Eurocentric policies, and more tolerant to middle eastern and North African powers.
When the Caliphate of Cordoba fell, it had an exponential decline. Originally, what seemed like a few cracks in their policies turned out to create entire civil wars and taifa kingdoms within Iberia.
If the Caliphate of Cordoba had instead taken another turn, maybe it could’ve had an exponential rise in development instead?
This could possibly justify how Cordoba and the rest of the Muslim world can get so strong, by originally having control over the Mediterranean, and therefore boosting the entire economy of the Islamic world.
Man I haven't watched you in such a long time
Fun fact: Spain and Portugal only began exploring for alternate trade routes because the Ottomans conquered Constantinople and the Suez in Egypt
I mean the Suez canal did not exist back then. It was more becaue of high taxes rather than the Ottoman control. The Venetians for example were pretty happy with the Ottomans because of priveleges obtained by trade agreements.
I'm sure there was no suez canal in that period or do they teach that in schools always blame the Muslims lol
Portugal started the exploration in 1415 well before the Ottoman conquest of the Suez.
@@luisgoncalosilva6194 Wait the suez canal existed back then?
I thought it was built at the 18th century or something
@@yaboikindabored9831 Suez is actually the name of the city located on the northernmost point of the Red Sea, nort of the Suez Gulf. The city was an important tradehub and a major naval station for the Ottoman Empire. The canal's construction began on 1856 and was opened in 1869. The name of the canal comes from the Suez port, as it connects the incoming trade to Suez to the Medditerranean.
I feel like in this scenario it would drive Europeans to explore/colonize even earlier or more fervently, with less access to the spice trade. However, as you mentioned, who knows what capabilities England/France would have navally.
Yes I agree. Or the Dutch or Scandinavian..
I think the coastal European powers would have some pretty decent Navies, they might not have dominance over the Atlantic, but with Muslims controlling the ports in wester Iberia the Europeans might've went "Oh shit, better start making war ships so they don't blow up our trading vessels and conquer our coasts". Muslims retaining Iberia Might've been a great motivator for Europe to attempt at being a Maritime power if anything just as a deterrent to Muslim Naval expansion
If the Vikings got to Newfoundland for a time I don’t see how England wouldn’t do the same
@@FiscaalAftrekbaar The Dutch wouldn't exist without Spain
Not sure how much earlier it would have been possible. There’s a big difference between Vikings landing in the new world and the Spaniards or alternate Muslims consistently colonizing and monetizing it. Assuming something like the 100 years war also happened in the alt timeline they would have been much too busy with each other anyway
Your voice is very relaxing
5:05 Aladdin reference.
You should more part 2 videos and other continuations of your scenarios.
What if, after winning the Emu War against the Australians, the Emus began a campaign of conquest?
First to Indonesia and Papua New Guinea, then to southeast Asia and on to China.
They must fight cassowaries first then our doped up savage fighting chickens.
What if there were an Australia-Hungary, and a Great Lake Balaton existed separating the Balkans from Central Europe?
We would probably be at Alpha Centauri by now.
That’s a good idea for an April fools video.
@@Perririri And the Pirates of Balaton is a real thing, Magyars and Balkan people were the seafaring nations just like the Greeks, you either become a fisherman, a trader, or join the pirates.
Love the video Cody! 😎
The idea of an Arabic Central and South America sounds utterly fascinating!
Sweet video
Thank you
Yes! Part 3!
This has got to be one of the finest example of a ripple effect that doesn't need an actual historian giving a 3 hour lecture on cause and effect.
Some intriguing possibilities in this timeline. If Cordova sets up outposts in Brazil, they would have encountered urbanize Amazonian peoples, likely introducing horses and cattle. These would spread to the much larger than OTL Inca Empire. Without the Spanish Conquest the Inca are able continue their expansion.
The Ottomans would have had contact with the Maya Kingdoms and Southern Appalachian Mississippian chiefdoms. Muslim scholars would have love to get translations of Maya star charts and would not burned their books. They like Cordova would have introduced horses and cattle to North and mesoamerica, which means we get something like the Apache and Comanche horse nomads OTL.
Islam was also spread for one of the same reasons Christianity spread so fast, old world diseases. The key difference is how the religion would be marketed to the people. Spanish claim the disease and the conquest to be the wrath of God; the Ottoman traders by contrast may have used medicine known to them to heal people like a king or chief while attributing it to the knowledge from and mercy of Allah. Also I think the Muslim Traders would be more willing go along with whatever the natives set up.
How can horses help conquests in the mountain ? Btw if the Spanish massacred Incas it was because of the gold not religious reasons. The ottomans would also pillage for gold likely
@@nicocola284 Yes and No. They used religion to justify their actions but it was excuse for gold.
@@dragoninthewest1 Spanish king even forbade abuses on populations.
But a point ottomans didn’t have was the craziness of the reconquista. Conquistadors were crazy and thought they could christianise the world. Ottomans would never attempt to destroy the Aztec empire, or not immediately.
@@nicocola284 that is true
@@nicocola284 "Ottomans would never attempt to destroy the Aztec empire, or not immediately.
"
Just like they never tried to conquer Europe or Africa? Lmfao
This was a really good video.
I was so into your concept of what if europe died out of the black plague video, that even if europe is involved in this scenario, I'm getting the content that I wanted. The years of rice and salt was a bit too complex or fictional, while your channel provides a great overview for an average viewer. Keep up the good work!
This scenario is, I think, delayed too much in regards to the timeline. Without the wars on the Iberian peninsula, the Muslims in the western part of the Ottoman empire very well may have split even farther from the Eastern rulers. Plus, the innovation of high quality glass led to the invention of the microscope and telescope, and these kinds of inventions really propelled change in Europe. This would have happened in your Andalusia scenario too. So I suspect that there would be ships going west by the late 15th century, even if the Spain and Portugal never became Christian empires.
Any Muslim explorers would bring with them Old-World diseases, so the American natives still will be decimated in your scenario. An Ottoman colony in the New World will still be a source of cocoa, vanilla, and the night-shade family of delectables, making the Ottoman empire even richer, with all the more reason to dominate whatever natives were left after the diseases.
Furthermore, Iceland was still out there, mostly being ignored in our timeline. But people in Denmark-Norway knew it was there. Any Muslim discovery of a new world to the west would have reignited the people of the north to sail west again, and could use Iceland as a base.
Iceland? In our timeline Iceland remained a possession of Norway, then Denmark and contact was never lost. Do you mean Greenland? But I agree, Denmark-Norway is likely in this timeline to resume expeditions beyond Greenland to North America
I haven’t been this hyped since the last time oversimplified uploaded.
Right
I swear I’ve seen you before in the comments of Sargon of Akkad’s podcast
@@byzantineboi8345 i see this man everywhere
Such an interesting concept
loving the civ 5 music in the background
Very interesting video. Albeit I would add that the Ottomans were already adept at colonial affairs in the North and East Africa (primary the Sudan, such as the Kingdom of Wadai). Importantly, this style mostly centered around the development of tributary states (or de facto tributary, depending on who you ask). Ottoman colonization of the Americas would likely take on this style where following the conversion of the natives, some type of economic administration would be put in place in order to control trade of goods to the Old World.
It would certainly differ from OTL European colonialism, but the Ottomans were no strangers to colonialism.
True, Ottomans always used the classic vassal system when it wanted to project its influence over neighboring states that wasn't powerful to resist them but also too costly to invade and absorb, for far away countries though they preferred economic and cultural deals and exchanges to build their reputation especially in Africa and India for example Ottoman scholars and religious figures travelled all the way to Nigeria and South Africa to open educational and religious instutions, current day Turkey follows the same principle in Africa opening schools religious sites hospitals military bases etc.
I feel your best videos make me want stories based off of the alternate scenarios described. This vid is no different.
I wonder what would happen if you combined as many of the changes in historical events on your channel as possible together to see how much deviation from our timeline occurs?
Super interesting vid! Your old video, "What if Godzilla was real?" popped into my head today. I thought in the spirit of Christmas, you should do one, "What if Santa Claus was real?"
What if Russia joined the EU or NATO after the collapse of the USSR?
That would have been great.
Or if the Soviet Union dropped communism
@@connorh2215 yeah no more tension
@@kv-2156 well false. Eastern members are not liked with their western counterparts, and well Germany after 2008 was seen as having to much control.
Really, if Russia joined that would be amped up by 11.
@Gепshlп Iмраст 🅥 pedo game
I laughed so hard at the end with the Turkish bombard vpn analogy, that was absolutely amazing lmfao loved it.
Something that no one's talking about is that with the Ottomans having unrestricted access to the Indian Ocean they would most likely eventually come across Australia
Yes discovering america would have probably lead to an age of exploration for ottoman sailors
True
4:54
Thanks for the little tapping on blackboard sound for the sake of OCD.
On the same topic, What if Japan had colonized America?
This time America would maybe be split in two, between Japanese Western coast and European Eastern coast!
I think it would be a nice topic to talk about!
Honestly, Japan wouldn't really be interested in going over the Pacific, they're an island nation but they've been pretty internally focused for most of their history. Ming dynasty China would have been more likely (and more capable) or creating the ships large enough to go over the Pacific or the interest of exploring. Zheng He made it all the way to Africa with his treasure fleet but after he died and the emperor he worked under died, the next one had no interest in naval exploration so China turned its doors inwards as well. If the next emperor wanted to continue the sea trade and exploration, its entirely possible you'd see a lot more Chinese influence in South Asia, the Middle East and Africa and maybe even Chinese colonies going down from Alaska towards California.
@@richyhu2042 the thing is, by the time of the 16th century, japan was an outward country with a large navy, commercial influence in southeast asia, and expansionist plans while ming china had severely reduced the effectiveness of its own navy
@@mint8648 well you forgot that japan closed their island for 200 years right? Nobody can go and nobody can get in. So that's the major factor too
@@richyhu2042 Interesting!
After all, it's even better with China!
Japanese Western coast and Japanese Eastern coast one is Black and one white😂
What about the aztecs and incas ? In this timeline they would have already existed for more than another 200 yrs by the time the ottomans arrive. Maybe they would be much more estd. and would be a much more formidable presence which means that they might survive owing to their resilience and much less aggressive ottoman approach and eventually have a major role in new world power politics. Maybe in this scenario the new world post contact empires would not all be old world in origin.
Disagreed, these empires were already stagnating and showing cracks. The Inca were on the verge of a major civil war, and the primary fighting force that toppled the Aztecs wasn't Cortes but their subjugated states. The Aztecs were stagnant and the Inca were overextended. There are limits to how much you can grow without beasts of burden or practical applications of the wheel. Don't get me wrong, their feats of engineering, understanding of astronomy, and surely many other things that were lost were mighty impressive, but there are fundamental limits imposed on them.
You can't retain an empire if 90% of your people die. Even if something emerged after the fact if the Ottomans didn't press their advantage (what is more likely is they would have been called in to make protectorates of certain states) it would be ages to recover, and they would be extremely heavily influenced by foreign pressures in this new development.
@@HeavyMetalorRockfan9
I also agree with this. But I think they would stand a chance. Maybe the muslims would not take advantage of the subjugated states, and the Aztec would sustain some of their might somehow. Same for the Inca. In the same sense that the English somehow got united under a single banner, the Inca would have a chance to do so in the future.
@@HeavyMetalorRockfan9 They weren't stagnant at all, they were doing great. In regards to the aztecs, without an external player with far more advanced military technology to rely on, the subyugated peoples would have been easily asimilated. The inca were at an ACTUAL civil war BECAUSE of a succession crisis caused by the plagues brought by europeans, wether or not the specific chain of events would replicate is anyone's guess.
It’s possible that the Inca or Aztec may have been converted to Islam through trade just like many pre-Islamic African empires were
@@skysthelimitvideos I'd say it is a given.
Man i wish this is what happened. Why can't this timeline exist? 😢
This video was pretty cool. It's a very interesting topic, to be honest.
Bro your videos are awesome and great, you make it so clear that what you show is one possible scenario, thar makes you very objective even when we disagree.
Keep the great work and the epic book too!
The likelihood of this happening is very low. The main driving force that led Europeans to American was that the ottomans cut trade routes between China and the west, or at least made them less profitable, so i see no reason why ottomans would sail west. Now ottomans colonizing after first contact to try and compete with Spanish and Portuguese colonies would make more sense in my opinion.
Cody already mentioned that any Ottoman conquest in the Americas woild be impossible if the Christian Iberian kingdoms existed
And religion
@@Anverse-14 it’s not unreasonable for the ottomans to get some islands in the Caribbean, the dutch did and it’s not like Spain liked them. Imagine the turks owning the turks.
It’s been 2 years and I’m still waiting for part 3
god how i wish i could travel through different timelines to experience alternate history
Cody, when do we get the Ottoman Janissary Plush?!
What if the Stressa Front kept existing? I kinda wanna see a video on that
Your Janissary character looks cool dude
still eagerly waiting for part 3 even to this day 😔
Dutch, British, and Scandinavian cod fisherman may have landed on the coast of what was to become New England a few years earlier than even Columbus, and were definitely there by the early 16th century, with no realization that this was the same continent Columbus had discovered. They were just following the cod that had been overfished off of Europe. In fact, one of the Native Americans who helped the Pilgrims had actually been to England prior to their arrival, and he was far from the first. They get my vote for "discovery" if Columbus hadn't done it.
And if there are prophecies about the coming of the old worlders ships, it could be some random guy that saw these lost fish chasers
Sources?
Agreed. British and Dutch would have really profited from that situation
@@Chrischi4598 There is unlikely to be a Dutch equivalent in this scenario given the fact the Spanish kingdoms were destroyed.
@N Gaming America had been discovered by the Vikings. Leif Ericsson and the Viking explorers got there first but failed to establish a colony. They probably sailed from Ireland because the Vikings established an enclave in Dublin based on their slave trade. So, Columbus wasn't first to discover North America.
You should do a video about the Wolfenstein Video games! Like the one you did for fallout!
Still waiting on that part 3
Yet another video that will get me to start a new EU4 game
I can't believe there's already so many comments even though this vid's only been up for three minutes!
EDIT: Graeco-Slavic Caribbean sounds like a sight to see.
There's also the argument Western Europe only went to the New World because Ottoman's taxed goods that went through central Europe / West Asia. Western Europe decided to sail around rather than pay the taxes. Ottoman's were more focused on being a gateway from West to East then they were trying to explore what was going on in the New World. Also had too much internal issues to be outward.
“too much internal issues to be outward” bro the ottomans literally campaigned in regions as far apart as morocco to kenya to astrakhan to gujarat to malaysia
@@mint8648 Land empires expanding into countries that have prebuilt infrastructure and labor populations are way cheaper than trying to build up new colonies without that overseas, like the Ottomans would have had to do in South America in this scenario. It was worth the massive investment for Europe as Europe could neither domestically grow products that took well to the Caribbean like sugarcane and spice plantations, nor trade cheaply with people who could (or in North America, get easy access to furs). The Ottomans could do both with their Old World empire, so there just would be too little incentive without some very fixed cultural reasons, like how the Spanish desired to build a Christian bulwark against the Ottomans (obviously not an issue for all but the most schizophrenically paranoid of alternate Ottoman Empires) or desperately try to relieve internal stresses political disunity by dumping people overseas, like the British (which the Ottomans might do, but probably have better, cheaper options for within Europe, Asia, and Africa).
Not to mention, as they expanded everywhere, they were pushed against everywhere as a reaction. At any given moment the Ottomans could be at war with the Persians and their allies, the Austrians and their allies, Italians and their allies, and of course their own scheming, disloyal governors and their allies. In the midst of that constant ****storm, why bother opening up a new weak point in the Americas for some annoying French and British and Whatever fleets to continuously harangue and occupy, not to mention facing the power plays of any native potentate in South or Central America that decides they've had enough of whatever disagreement has erupted between them and the Turks this week?
@@nathaniellindner313 i’m not saying the ottomans could have went to the americas if they wanted to, i’m just saying the ottomans were very capable of extending outwards to places even beyond the reach of european colonial powers so the internal instability is not a problem.
@@nathaniellindner313 there was barely any infrastructure in the ottoman overseas territories of eritrea and yemen. in the case of yemen there used to be infrastructure but everything was too ravaged by civil wars.
@@nathaniellindner313 yes the ottomans have many enemies but you’re acting like european powers like spain are free from this problem. The ottomans had to fight persia while the spanish had to fight morocco. the ottomans have tensions with austria, and spain with france. england is also a threat to spain. and the barbary states (technically part of ottoman empire but not really). internal revolts in ottoman empire are similar in spain (like the morisco revolt). not to mention brunei, japan, the dutch, portugal, the moros.
Nice video
It seems that no matter what topic of alternate history one tries to think of, Harry Turtledove has already at least mentioned the idea in passing. In this case, Kansistan from Through Darkest Europe.
Hi Cody! I've been a long time fan of this channel. As a history buff I was wondering if you could cover the partition of India. Including why it happened,how it could have been avoided,and what would have happened if it didn't. Nevertheless, Thank you for the great content!
India needed to be partitioned since it’s just too damm diverse and would be nearly impossible to develop.
Also India was never truly united , it was united under certain empires but they had constant rebellions which makes the unity not make any sense
@@proger1960 I understand your argument but if that was the case, why not just break it up even further? Why just India and Pakistan? Why not sindh or bengal or karnata?
@@therealjay2801
Sorry I meant to elaborate further , yes Bengal and other states would eventually need to be formed since not all brown people are the same and are unique to each other.
@@proger1960 Um.... Not all Indians are brown? Certainly not in the north.
@@proger1960 also how would they be formed eventually? That certainly didn't happen in otl so how can we know if it would happen?
“Otto-men? Ottoman”
Edit:lol didn’t think anyone would get it
Oversimplified?
People back then called them rumis (turkish romans)
Ottowomen 😂
Wow. These have been a lot more frequent, recently.
I planned an alt-hist novel years ago with this premise as the background, with the main plot being a world war in an alternate 21st century. Like in the video, I had the idea of a South America that contained various mixed Indigenous-Islamic states, while North America had stayed more uniformly Indigenous. However, there were also various European and Chinese colonies scattered around the coasts and islands of the Americas. The main character would be a soldier of an Andean Empire that was undergoing a period of nationalist-fascist dictatorship, and so was largely a stand-in for OTL's Showa Japan. Meanwhile the Old World would have a Turkic Ottoman-analog empire around the Mediterranean, a Hindu empire in the Indian subcontinent, and a Muslim Indonesian empire that also controlled Australia. The world's main superpower would be China, which also ruled Korea, Japan, and parts of SE Asia as vassal states, with colonies in Polynesia, the west coast of the Americas, and a few colonies in the Atlantic (including a city on the British coast as a joke reference to Hong Kong). Hm, this vid is inspiring me to get back to the project and actually write the damn thing, it's been sitting on my computer since 2008.
This was epic. I was wondering if you could do what if the holy Roman empire never formed.
As Muslim West Indian, This seems like a lot of work to end up right back were I started.
Yo @AlternateHistoryHub can you explain Nation in Conflict lore. This game always facisnating me when I was a kid and spark my alternate universe spirit. Can you make it?
just a revise, Ottomans were not speaking Arabic. They were speaking Turkish, only writting it in Arabic alphabet. Atatürk changed alphabet from Arabic to Latinf. Language is same Turkish language from Ottomant to Turkiye.
Here's one Cody:
What if the native Americans weren't differently affected by old world diseases?
The world would be very different - slaves from Africa would never have been brought to the new world, since they were brought in to replace indigenous slaves who were being killed off by disease
The world would be a better place
@@nicocola284 Truly impossible to say, who knows what sort of ripple effects that would have on global history in the following centuries
@@DHEspana no more USA, it’s a better place
So I guess in the alternative scenario, many domesticatable animals made it across the land bridge along side humans.
Now I'm imagining George Washington with a giant onion hat/turban,
*Georgi Washingtanos
Washington Paşa lol
Al Sultan Al Washingtun
Suggestion, how about you do a video on if the league of three emperors succeeded. It would be an interesting video and majorly change ww1.
Neat Idea. Another one I'd like to see is what if Columbus's expedition failed. How long would it take for Europe to find the new world and how would it change the patterns of history.