What if Japan Had Converted To Christianity?
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- Опубліковано 3 лип 2022
- Before Japan isolated itself for two centuries it had a growing relationship with the West. Goods from China and Europe came in and as a side-effect Christianity began growing among the peasantry. What if in an alternate timeline, this stuck? What if Japan had adopted Christianity?
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Happy Fourth of July. If you want more content I have another channel where I talk about pointless stuff. Just released a video about Transformers 2. Thanks for the support! ua-cam.com/video/IMa57_itILY/v-deo.html
What if japan won the imjin war
Happy Fourth of July 🇺🇸
Happy 4th, we’re talking about Japan
Well the Founding Fathers excluded Women, Black people, and oppressed gay people so who cares about their lukewarm accomplishments. Rebel Canadians had better policies. No joke.
Im Italian, what's the 4th of July?
Japan would literally have the power of God and Anime on their side.
Lmao
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
I doubt anime, as we know it, would even exist in an alternate Christian converted Japan.
@@andrewtodaro2874 Is this because of the differences in global conflict during the first half of the 20th century in this alternate timeline?
*screaming intensifies*
Fun fact: One of the most famous Japanese Christians was Justo Takayama Ukon, a samurai and Daimyo who was baptized a Catholic at age 12 but really became pious around age 20. He eventually had to flee to the Philippines and died in 1615. He was beatified in 2017 which puts him one step away from officially being declared a Saint
Justo isn't a traditionally Japanese name, was his name Spanish or Portugese influenced as well? That's really interesting if so
Interesting!
I just looked it up, yes it was, his first name is written in Katakana, something I didn't realize they were doing in the 1500s and very early 1600s! Cool!
The Holyman of Japan
@@MediumDSpeaks Yes, "justo" literally means "just" or "fair". In the Spanish speaking world it's considered a very old-fashioned name so you won't find much people younger than 60 bearing it
The idea of a crusader samurai is actually pretty terrifying.
And funny
They shall retake Nanking in the Name of God and Anime
I mean, wasn't there a samurai that went to Spanish Mexico and visited a descendant of the Aztecs?
japan was closer to becoming muslim than christian
In visualisation yes, they would be still weaker than Templars or Teutons, the armor and swords were not practical
“There was Christianity in Japan until there wasn’t”
That is frighteningly accurate.
Not quite. There were a few Christians left when missionaries returned, having passed the faith from parent to child orally for 250 years.
@@andrewpatton5114Exactly thousands practiced in secret same in other countries where Christianity is persecuted
@@braxtonjones6163 funny how christians went from being persecuted to being the largest persecutors of all time
If only all nations could be so lucky
@@nodnarbleahcim5097wdym by that? Why do u hate Christianity?
Thank you for the shout-out, appreciate it!
Loved the video man!
@Kurtis boo
That is a great video you made
666 likes
Ukraine is gay. I did a video proving that the NATO logo has a swastika in it.
Kinda disappointed you didn’t mention Oda Nobunaga. He was actually pretty open to Westerners and Christians, allowing them to set up churches under his rule
No video about Japan is complete without at least one mentioning of Oda Nobunaga
And he was assassinated. He he not been assassinated, Japan would be a very different place.
I'd say the issue with that is while yes, he was open to Christians, he also wasn't open to potential dissenters. Look at what he did to the Ikko Ikki and you might get an idea of what would happen if Christians continued growing
I don't know his openness to Western stuff is greatly exaggerated you just got to look depictions of him wearing Western style armor even though there is no actual evidence for that whatsoever.
Which he only did for practical reasons, not out of sympathy for their cause. Like Tokugawa, did he find them to undermine his authority, the result would have been the same and westerners and Christians would have been purged from Japan
As an interesting aside, in Japan religion is a largely individual matter. To give an example, only around 3% of Japan is Christian, but around a fifth all marriage are Christian ceremonies. A lot of it comes down to ritual, but for just as many its simply a matter of personal experience.
Basically, given that Shinto and Buddhism being largely decentralized and (some would argue) unorganized religions, stated belief is far more complicated than face value.
One correction. Less than 3% of Japan follows any Abrahamic religion (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam), with about 1% following Christianity. This is based on the Japanese Agency for Cultural Affairs 2022 report on religions in the country.
It seems to be common for people conditioned to conceptualize religion in a purely Abrahamic framework not to fully grasp how other traditions deal with things like faith and adherence. The video cites data that over 60% of respondants in Japan had no religious affiliation or were irreligious, but this only reflects affiliation with organized religion. This same survey also reports that only 3% of respondants identify with Shinto, and these are overwhelmingly members of the clergy. Other surveys indicate that 70% of respondants adhere to Shinto in some form, while 70% also adhere to Buddhism in some form. This obviously adds up to over 100%. It isn’t that the religions are “unorganized” (various Buddhist traditions in Japan have a long history of theological disputes, and Shinto was at one point co-opted and codified by the Imperial government to solidify their authority), but Eastern religions tend to be much more fluid in terms of adherence and identity than the Abrahamic faiths.
What can be most confusing to a Western observer is that none of these survey results are mutually exclusive in the Japanese worldview. In Japan, it is extremely common for people who practice both Shinto and Buddhist rites on a regular basis and may also have had a Christian wedding to identify with none of them and even consider themselves completely irreligious. Often these practices are considered an extension of being Japanese without any explicitly religious connotations, which is why the Empire of Japan was officially a secular state, yet also declared the descent of the Emperor from the sun goddess Amaterasu as historical fact as official state policy, and also mandated certain state-sanctioned Shinto practices regardless of one’s stated religious affiliation.
As a Japanese national, I was a bit skeptical before viewing the video, but overall that was an interesting work denoting good knowledge about my country
How would you react if faith in christianity suddently rises within your country?
@@ALEX-fq7hh they’d probably find it strange
I like the idea that “Those that live by the Sword, die by the sword” would be interpreted entirely different by Samurai and would read it as a reference to seppuku
Psalm 144
"Praise be to the LORD my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle.
He is my loving God and my fortress, my stronghold and my deliverer, my shield, in whom I take refuge, who subdues peoples
under me."
A Christian Samurai would be quite terrifying indeed.
Samurai: this jesus guy really knows whats up
Death before Dishonour
- How about a life after death?
They’d basically be Joshua Graham from Fallout New Vegas
*We can’t expect for God to do all the work*
@pyropulse Chill dude! I wasn't engaged in a debate in order to accuse me of misquoting scripture. It was just fun way of thinking what verses a Christian Samurai would use, that also align with his profession.
I would imagine Japanese Catholicism becoming a new Eastern Rite (like Byzantine Catholicism). So, still Catholic, but much more local aesthetic. May even start a new category of rites (Western Rites, Eastern Rites, Far Eastern Rites)
I think that'd be unlikely. When the Roman Catholics conducted their missions they tended to homogenize their churches. It wasn't until more recently with Vatican II that the Catholics have become more open to liturgical and cultural differences. The Eastern Rite churches really only exist because they rejoined the Catholic communion as already formed churches, not new ones.
Pope would eventually have to decide if Japanese Christianity should be tolerated or not
I think it could became a different Branch of Christianity. Like Ethiopian Orthodox
@@Frazier16 theoretically, but that is different than pure aesthetic/cultural differences. That would likely mean the Japanese church would have to have an irreconcilable split in theology with the rest of the Catholic church
Be even more confusing when the Orthodox got to Japan. Japan has a rather sizable population of them and they're...certainly unique.
Fun fact:
Christianity in Japan never really died after the persecution. It evolved into underground sects, where there was always a leader that kept the Church Calendar to continue the practice. Our brothers and sisters even kept statues of the Buddha Mother Kannon as Mary statues (eventually becoming Maria Kannon). They were able to remain devout until 1853 when the US and other nations forced Japan to trade with the rest of the world. This opened the doors to the abolishment of the ban, first in 1858 in Nagasaki (where many cathedrals were built), then followed by an overall abolishment in 1873. Finally, underground Christians were able to come out of hiding and practice without fear. The faith was so strong that Akita received a Marian Apparition in 1973, where one of the nuns received visions from the Virgin Mary to pray for peace, which led to the nun and wooden Mary statue in Covent receiving the stigmata, a very powerful blessing (the wounds of Jesus). The statue also bled from the wound and cried 101 times, some of them even captured on national television. The blood and tears were tested and proven to be of human origin. This was confirmed to have been a real Marian Apparition. It's quite beautiful, actually.
Religious mumbo jumbo is always beautiful to the Ignorant
I can't read "Sect" without thinking of Murim. 😂
La Conquistadora de Almas Ora Pro Nobis ☦️
You mean atheists love ignorance*@@rishavkumar1250
@@rishavkumar1250 Neckbeard
Japan-Philippines relations would really be strong in this. Spain had always had interests in Japan even before they fully pacified the Philippine archipelago even having plans to invade Japan once they expelled all Christians. Spanish missionaries based on the Philippines would have influence much stronger than the Portuguese could ever muster as it would have both the geographic and population advantage. Even before Japan shut itself off, many of the local Filipino missionaries trained by the Jesuits had their missions in Japan so much so that both of our saints are missionaries who went to Japan.
The Manila Galleon route may have a stop to Japan if thats the case.
Yes
lorenzo ruiz died in japan also while on a mission
Annnnd all of those did happen
@@xechyugon2887 we have a saint who got killed in Japan, a blessed(a non-canonized saint) Samurai Daimyo who was exiled to Manila died here, and various shenanigans like Murata Rifles showing up in the Philippines during our Revolution
Tbh, I would Never wish what happened to my country(the PH) on Japan or any of our neighbors even if it made ties stronger.
The world would be far less beautiful or interesting if Folk religions like that of Shintoism, Animism, Shamanism, Daoism, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism & other religions, Histories & Cultures were wiped out by European & North American Christian Churches like what happened in the Philippines.
Even if people all converted to the same religion & had more similarities, that has NEVER stopped conflicts or wars from breaking out between groups.
I mean, the Europeans have mostly been Christians for at least a 1000 years & they Still fought each other endlessly. The reason they even came to the Americas, Asia & Africa was so they could compete over who had the most global colonies & dominance.
The issue with Spanish Christianization was their constant drive to wipe out or twist other Populations' past "Idols" to wipe the slate clean & indoctrinate their own religion & heirarchy. A few priests saved the pre-Colonial information but the majority didn't.
The Americans are just the British Empire reloaded & they Still fought with other super Christian nations.
There definitly would have been a unique aesthetic. Japanese christian artwork is some of my favority kinds of art so i cant imagine what japanese cathedrals would be like in their own right. Along with the fact that the posibility of a japanese pope is greater than 0%
Maybe it would be similar to Eastern Orthodoxy artwork? Prioritizing symbolism over realism.
"Japanese christian artwork is some of my favority kinds" - I've watched Evangelion so I can support this!
(Even though Anno does not follow Christianity and mostly just thought Angel imagery looked cool and never expected the show to be seen by Westerners)
@@jakespacepiratee3740 He took themes from the book of Revelation to write his plot; definitely directly inspired by Christianity, especially the ending.
@@bustavonnutz He also said that if he knew Evangelion was going to be viewed by Westerners he probably would not have included Western religious imagery.
Presumably because he didnt want to offende anyone?
either japanese architecture or a mix of japanese and gothic
There's a movie by Martin Scorsese called "Silence" staring Andrew Garfield and Adam Driver. It's about two Portuguese missionaries looking for their mentor in this time period and it really goes into detail in the post rebellion era. Amazing acting, and really just beautifully shot.
Unfortunately they did that same thing as in Kingdom of Heaven, where they put modern mindset and perspectives in characters from centuries ago.
it was an amazing movie i watched it
That movie just show How the order 66 should be worked
@@ErickeTR No not really. Kingdom of Heaven is a historical hot mess that includes butchering and mixing up historical figures and mindsets.
Silence really showed some deep zealotry levels the modern world really doesn't grasp. The way The Japanese shogunate targeted the believers instead of the missionaries was in fact true.
And its well documented. As is how the average Japanese farmer's interpretation of Christianity. They took it fairly literal, and the Shogun did see it as a threat to their control over the population, and what the Europeans did to other places around the world, hence the near immediate cut off from the outside world.
@@ErickeTR Interesting, I saw Silence as well. Could you give examples of the modern mindset/perspectives in that film ?
OK, imagine an Assassins Creed game, taking place during the Shimabara rebellion. The Templars would influence the rebels, obviously. The Shogunate would probably be intolerant like in Revelations, and the Assassins would have pretty free reign.
There is an assassins creed game in development right now that takes place in japan
@@undeadzebra6016 Actually no. The Assassin's Creed Mirage was set to be taking place in the 9th century Baghdad. Yep, we going back to the Islamic Golden Age.
@@TheStarcoMarco Assassins Creed Red is gonna be set in Japan though.
For me an AC game should take place during the bakumatsu period.
You have an interesting idea. 😂
I, in fact, was not thinking about crusading samurai... NOW that is literally all I can think about. Please make a video 100/10 would watch
yeah it would be awesome
Not to mention the fact that when nations accepted the Faith, they ideally had a missionary zeal of their own. So I could imagine Japanese Jesuits spreading the Faith across Asia, regardless of what the government’s foreign policy was.
So, maybe the Taiping rebellion would be started by Japanese Catholic missionaries in this time-line?
this is why christianity is a cancer
That's not impossible, but Japan kinda has a history of syncretism. "Born Shinto, marry Christian, die Buddhist," as they say.
@@timothymclean To be fair so did the Romans, theoretically Japan would've just needed their own Theodosius to go full send into Christianity.
sounds like piracy to the surrounding countries
I remember reading a book on this topic "Christ's Samurai" by Jonathan Clements, if your're interested in this topic, I recommend it immensely.
there's an alternate history novel for everything, huh?
@@orbrat212 this one is not alternate history, it focuses on the shimabara rebellion in extreme detail. From build up, myths that showed up during the rebellion and international intervention in the conflict.
@@liquidmarble2545 ah i see
@don't be surprised no?
Adding to this, for the Chinese experience of christian rebellion, read God' Chinese Son. The Taiping rebellion was nuts.
Another possible divergence point: had Japan been Christianized in the 16-1700's, it may have been seen as a more viable partner state for European powers, and thus may have been perceived as a more favorable option than the United States of America when Russia was considering whom to sell Alaska to in 1867... interesting possibilities to imagine a Japanese-American conflict in the northern Rocky Mountains as a result of the inevitable Yukon Gold Rush (whenever someone eventually did find gold there)
Fun fact: There was a manga I read during my weeb times called Issak where a Japanese solider from the late sengkou/ early edo went to fight in the thirty years war check it out it’s pretty good and realistic (apart from him hitting targets with his musket from more then 100 meters)
was he using a musket? - I was for sure he was using a rifle in that.
@@abhijeetshrestha1502 could have been a rifled musket. Issak's musket was specially hand crafted my his master.
The manga "Amakusa 1637" was pretty much about this, involving six time-travel teens going back in time to the titular date to take part in the Shimabara Rebellion.
Added to my list, thanks for the mention
@@MegaLucky0013 silence a movie by Scorsese is much better
Portuguese influence was actually the exact thing that caused the Latin alphabet to take roots in Vietnam and eventually edge out the Chinese-based writing system. The Catholic population of Vietnam was ballooning as well, and they also had ties to the Philippines, until the monarchy stamped Christianity out and it has stuck at around 10% of the total population since then. So if you want to see an East Asian alternative history to Japan's conflict with the Christian faith, look South East.
we do actually have a few christian japanese filipinos in the philippines...
I'm guessing an alphabet of something like
Aa /a/
Bb /ᵐb/ > /b/
Cc /k/
Ch ch /t͡ɕ/
Çç /s/
Dd /ⁿd/ > /d/
Dj dj /d͡ʑ/ > /ʑ/ (upon merger, is dropped in favour of )
Ee /e/
Ff /ɸ/ > /h/ (remaining /ɸ/ in loanwords is spelled either or )
Gg /ɰ/ (Portuguese /g/ lenites to something like [ɰ])'
Gu gu /ᵑgw/ (gu is used over gü because Late Middle Japanese didn't have /gw/ before front vowels.)
Ii /i/, /j/
Jj /ʑ/ (also sometimes used for /ç/ under influence from Spanish)
Ll ll /rː/
Mm /m/
Nn /n/
Nh nh /ɲ/ (Introduced later)
NG ng /ᵑɡ/ > /g/ ( is used for /Nɰ/
nrr [ɴ] (only at the end of words)
Oo /o/
ÓÓ óó /ɔː/
ÔÔ ôô /oː/
Pp /p/
Qu qu /kw/ (likely to become more common because of loanwords)
R r /r/ (possibly replaced with at one point)
Rr rr /h/ (Introduced later)
S s /ⁿz/ > /z/ (replaced with word initially after they merge)
T t /t/
TÇ tç /t͡s/
Uu /u/
Xx /ɕ/
Zz /dz/ > /z/
Note: geminate /r/ is spelled
sample words:
Nifonrr (japan) > Nirronrr
Porutongaru (Portugual)
キリシタン Cirixitanrr (Christian) > Cilixitianrr
ガラナ Guarana (Guarana)
プリンシペ purinhxipe
サウダージ saudaji
トタン totanrr
トタン panrr
What is it with the Iberian Peninsula and having random people live in there from different places, Portugal has the Successor of the Templars, the Religion of the Assassins and a Japanese Minority that came from an expedition by a Japanese Lord.
Or look to East Timor
Not really sure that it was actually the case as the biggest reason why Latin-Viet was used as a writing system is because it's easier to educate a large swathe of people on how to write than Nom-Viet so the left-wing government in Vietnam after the liberation wars just choose it.
Catholic in Vietnam was constantly being overshadowed by folk-Buddhism and it's role on building the Vietnam national identity (which was built as a response towards the repressions by China during their 1000 years rule). So even if they got a better leg to stand on (a less repressive government for example), they would still have to contesting a literal national religion.
Huh, maybe I should try this out in Victoria III
Kings and generals really is an awesome creator. I appreciate you shouting out one of my favorite creators in your video.
Would have been interesting to hear how a Christian Japan might have impacted the adoption of Christianity in Korea.
Indeed. Considering how big a role Christianity played with the Korean independence movement, it would probably have taken on elements of the Protestant-Catholic divide in Europe, depending on if Japan was Traditional Roman Catholic or if it was declared heretical for incorporating Shinto elements and hence Protestant.
If Japan followed the exact steps. Christianity wouldn't be in Korea anymore. Most Christians would've been banished to Japan or US.
Christianity in Korea would be more Catholic than Protestant
@@davidford3115 I doubt they would be considered heretics, one of the main reasons why early Christianity was so successful is that they still to an extent allowed the traditions of different people to coexist with Christianity
@@warcriminalgaming2359 Depends. St. Nicholas, the patron Saint of Klingons was famous for punching out heretics at the council of Nicene.
Now I agree that the Coptic Christian Chruch very much resembles the early church by incorporating elements of the ancient Egyptian faith and mysteries, such as the cult of Mother Isis, goddess of childbirth being adopted into practices honoring the Virgin Mary.
Something to consider is that for the longest time, the Vatican held Chinese ancestor rites as pagan rituals incompatible with Christian doctrine. For centuries the Holy See has considered it "ancestor worship". It is only a recent development that those practices are view through the lens of "honor thy mother and father", the 5th of the 10 commandments.
The world of “I have the power of God and Anime on my side” basically
😭😭 kings and generals and u are like in the top ten of my favorite history channels its so cute to hear u shout them out 😭😭😭😭
I do not expect Jan Matejko painting(Zaprowadzenie chrześcijaństwa) in Japan alt history video. Nice Cody! Both video and including in it this painting. ;)
The other POD I can see happening is if Oda Nobunaga lived longer- he had a stronger military state and had significant conflicts with the Shinto powers in Japan. He was fairly friendly to Portugal- indeed he was one of the first daimyo’s to use firearms in his armies. Had he become shogun I can see Christianity growing stronger in Japan
Hah! I was about to make a comment to this effect, i do believe if Nobunaga did not die, Japan would be Christian. He was a big reverse weeb and firmly anti-traditionalistic.
Nobunaga was a straight up Westaboo. He wore western style armor, drank red wine and converted to Christianity. If the Honnouji Incident didn’t happen he could totally have spread Christianity
@@00Rennah yeah same. I’m glad I wasn’t the only one to think of Nobunaga
@@SeanHiruki oda was a Christian?
@@mr.anderson2241 He wasn't a Christian himself, but Nobunaga was a huge weeb for the Portuguese. Everything they did, he wanted to appropriate in some way, turning a lot of western military traditions and technologies that the Portuguese brought with them into an early hybrid Euro-Japanese war machine.
I agree that had he not died when he did, and the Oda clan became shogun, he and his successors might be a lot less hostile to the Christians than the Tokugawa were - leading to Christianity taking over the country not through force, but through the slow state-sponsored benign neglect of traditions
Another reason the shogunate tolerated Christianity was because they were unhappy with the power and influence Buddhist monks had. Interestingly they were reluctant to challenge them directly because they thought they'd be punished in the afterlife if they started killing monks, so they were happy this new religion was eroding their influence without them having to do anything directly.
Another interesting thing is that Catholic/Protestant rivalry played a role in Christianity's decline in Japan. William Adams, the "English Samurai" played a notable role in convincing the shogunate that the Jesuits were up to no good.
There would eventually be a rather brutal movement against Buddhism too during the Meiji Restoration where it was nearly wiped out in Japan.
Sheesh.
One of the biggest reasons why Christians were persecuted was the Dutch. There was even a first Japanese "embassy" in Rome as Christianity grew very quickly. The problem, however, was that the Reformation was currently underway in Europe and it was a thorn in the side of the Protestants that the Catholic Church was growing rapidly in the new world and now also in East Asia, which is why the Dutch got involved and spread propaganda against the Catholics operated with the Japanese. The Portuguese were driven out but Japan retained trade with the Netherlands.
What if Brazil remained a monarchy?
USA would coup them until they werent
KING BOLSONAROO
It would be a first world country by now.
superpower
Considering what the old republic (lasted untill the start of the 20 century) did, it may have become far more advanced
Interesting idea, if the Otomo clan had spread Catholicism throughout Japan. Seems like no matter what, the Russo-Japanese war was going to happen at some point.
Agreed. After all European powers were always at war even when they shared the Same denomination of religion.
@@doncarlin9081such is the game of empire
Great video- something I really hadn't thought much about
I don't see Japanese completely converting to christianity, Japan through history has been very diverse when it comes to faith.
The idea of only embracing one religion would be a bit strange and foreign to Japanese.
Perhaps Christianity becomes one of the religions in Japan like Shinto and Buddhism, never completely displacing these religions.
Perhaps there would be some edicts and laws passed where Christians are allowed to live and exist in Japan but proselytizing and converting would be highly limited or banned.
As of 1700s Christianity would still exist in Japan with a small but notable christian minority across Japan.
Yeah, like the occasional practices of syncretism done by the Kakure/Hidden Christians. I believe there is even a small Shinto shrine in their honor, but I can't remember the name of it.
I think Christianity would just be a bit more prevalent in Japan, particularly in the southern islands and cities like Nagasaki
Problem with that is that Christianity has historically been very intolerant of other religions. It’s either all Christian, or the Christians will strive to make it all Christian.
I wonder how that society would view the Kami. As angels? Demons? Are Yokai Demons.
Very interesting.
The thing is - syncretism and Christianity don't go well together. I cannot imagine a universe where a sizeable practicing Christian population exists in Japan and it isn't actively trying to destroy the other faiths present. Buddhism accepts gods or other supernatural beings so Kami are no problem. Shinto accepts Buddha as just another Kami to worship. And Confucianism is more of a philosophy, even the more religion-like Neoconfucianism is more focused on hot takes about the basic structure of the world than to pay attention to dieties. However for Christianity, there is only one God, one holy plan and one worldly structure, so all of the faiths listed above are a no-go.
I love that history of Japan reference in the beginning lmao
Where
@@houseplant1016 0:39
@@EbonySaints Ah that, thanks! Legend!
DUDE. This is one of your videos I decided to watch at a later date, and I happen to miss one of the plush sales. I've been a fan of your channel since like 2018 and I have not been able to get a single one of your amazing plushies, since I don't always watch videos the instant they are are released. I know you probably get this a lot, but I am begging you to either rerelease some of the plushies or release new ones for longer amounts of time and not just for a week or two.
I'd love for you to do an alternate history on cultural movements like "what if modernism happened earlier" or if certain artistic movements never occurred or literary figures (or even works like the oddysey) never existed
This video is bringing me back memories of James Clavel's "Shogun". I recommend both the book and the miniseries.
Now this is the kind of content I want on the 4th of July
@peter who asked
A Spanish-Japanese-American War sounds interesting. It could even have become the Great War -- *_SOMETHING_* was going to become the Great War, after all, whether it was the Franco-Prussian War or the Russo-Japanese War.
I think that the Dutch would be better people to promote Christianity in Japan than the Portuguese because, to be honest, Miura Anjin, a.k.a., William Adams, was one of the people that was one of the most powerful figures that supported the Tokugawa Shogunate, and he knew how to make the people be convinced of him being a good influence in Japan.
Hey great video! You know, your channel has been so inspirational, you have encouraged me to start my own journey on the internet. Thanks!
One of the reasons the Tokugawa considered Japanese Christians "sus", as it were, is the location. Most of the Christians were centered in the south (west as the Japanese at the time would have referred to it, Kansai, Kyushu, Chugoku areas). The west was were the vast majority of the daimyo who had fought against Tokugawa were also located. So the Tokugawa are already on alert for anything out of the western part of the country that could cause chaos or disrupt their rule, plus it provides an excuse to persecute loads of folks in the part of the country that had not sided with the Tokugawa clan. Particularly lower class folks as well (farmers, etc), which also solves another Tokugawa goal of reinstituting a rigid class structure that had somewhat loosened during the warring states period (peasants could own weapons and fight, possible to rise up to different social classes such as Toyotomi Hideyoshi did, etc. but the Tokugawa wanted to re entrench, as it were, a more rigid class structure where no, you were stuck in the class you were born in because they viewed that as more stable for society). Good video, just wanted to add in my two cents (used to live in Japan and have degrees focusing on East Asian history). In order to assume that the warring states period continues, which is necessary for your logic, you would need Nobunaga not to become such a badass. He's really the one who laid the groundwork for unification, Hideyoshi Toyotomi and later Tokugawa Ieyasu were just taking advantage of Obunaga's successes, since he was the one who had done 90% of the work on unifying the country.
Knowledge.
At 9:00 it talks about the possibility of the Latin alphabet being used in japan in this alternate history.
I visited some churches in Taiwan and found that in addition to Chinese characters there were also many bibles written using the alphabet, one of the brothers told me about how early missionaries had created a romanized written script for Taiwanese which is in use to this day because at the time their was no written form of the local language in wide usage. (Taiwanese is fairly widely used minority language different from Taiwan's official language of Mandarin Chinese which uses Traditional Chinese characters)
This is obviously a very different situation than Japan which already had a strongly established writing system at the time of this alternate history but it was interesting to see roman characters being used for taiwanese.
very good video points on what if idea
I'm disappointed that you neglected to mention the fact, that Christianity had existed in Japan even before the Portuguese: Nestorian Christianity, which arrived to Japan even before Buddhism, but quickly died out. It was quite big in China too, before it got banned in the 9th century.
Boo hoo
You said it yourself, it died out quickly, therefore not really worth mentioning.
I need a video of the history of the Nestorians those guys went to the end of the world preaching Jesus
Yh true
The mongols had a sizeable population of nestorian Christian's
Of course that ended later when most mongols ended up converting to islam
There were also a lot of hidden Christians in Nagasaki but that kinda ended when you know, the nuke hit
Even in our timeline, during the Meiji period (1868-1912), some Japanese scholars wanted to abolish the Japanese writing system for Nihon-Shiki Romaji, and several texts were published in Romani but it didn't catch on. If Japan became Catholic and saw Latin as the holy language of the church, I think it probably would've caught on. As for different Japanese words that sound the same, accent marks can be used over vowels. Both "chopsticks" and "bridge" are "hashi" in Japanese, but you can just distinguish between the rising or falling pitches of the two words with accent marks (hashí/hashì).
That would be such a loss. I'm convinced the spread of Christianity has made the world a much more boring place.
@@krunkle5136
Having a boring world is only a problem for people well off enough and safe enough to amuse themselves with the problems of other countries.
Everyone else especially the most worst off are quite happy to live in a boring world where they don't have to worry about getting decapitated for looking directly at their ruler's face and at least getting treated with a base level of respect for being a fellow human.
@@krunkle5136
The Japanese themselves complained how hard Kanji is and the Edo Period is pretty much the root cause of many of Japan's issues today(the Yakuza for example)
@@genghiskhan5701 could you explain the latter part?
I still see the idea of removing kanji as a bastardizing of the language.
It's hard, but with that it necessitated a robust school system to educate kids successfully.
I don't see what's bad with 'hard'. It's a space efficient and beautiful script when learned. Maybe something easy to look over in an era when anything can be replaced with an app, everything expedient.
@@krunkle5136
A language being hard no matter how pretty it looks just isn't preferable for efficiency. People in this era actually appreciate the aesthetic of things far more than in the past.
Practicality was always extremely appealing hence why they were tempted to change their writing system.
Ex: There is no way Japan would easily replace its writing system today due to cultural significance but back then it was a real possibility.
An amazing interpretation of history I loved this version of our time
I want a story where there are multiple realities, and they combine, resulting in every available space in the habitable zone that isn't occupied by a planet being filled by an alternate earth, but only our earth has space travel.
Not-much-fun-fact: in 1932, students of the Jesuit Sophia University in Tokyo refused to offer reverence at the (in)famous Yakusuni Shrine due to contradiction with their Catholic Faith. This was one of very few instances of open disobedience in Fascist Japan, and I would love to learn more about local resistance during the war, especially Christian ones.
Japan wasn't Fascist??
@@dylanroemmele906 what were they then?
@@kulabster8916 Constitutional Monarchy, they even had a house of representatives and parliament. The IRAA wasn't even fascist and had no elements of fascism. Simply because they were with the Axis doesn't mean they were fascist.
@@kulabster8916 Fascism is a system where the people is divided according to their sectors under State maintenance. Japan wasn't anything like this.
@@kulabster8916 fascism was more of a Europe thing. Japan was just playing the West's game in colonialism and adopted some fascist beliefs. They myth making part of fascism made more sense as Japan was older than Italy or Germany.
I came across work from a Christian Metal group a few years ago named Imari Tones which opened my eyes to how little Christianity is represented in the Japanese population.
lol Christian mEtal
@@thefutureisnowoldman7653 I mean 9f you think about it Christianity is very metal, specially Catholicism and Orthodoxy, eating the meat and drinking the blood of its own God and placing the thing that killed its God everywhere, sometimes with the symbol of the dead God still in the torture object that killed the God. Very Metal.
@@jackyex Many Western Christians hated Metal and considered Satanic with no real evidence.
@@jakespacepiratee3740 and many protestants tought that Catholics were Satanic demon polytheistic worshipers, so yeah.
@@thefutureisnowoldman7653 I mean, Tony Iommi is a Catholic, and he invented Heavy Metal as we know it.
Upcoming/Future Video Idea:What If The Akkadian Empire (Real First Empire) Survived the Gutian's Conquest.
P.S:Love Your Videos
Similar to this, I wonder if you could ever do a video about what would have happened if the Taipang Rebellion succeeded, and China had a very eastern inflected, sycretic Christiniaty. Sever million people and a emperor/pope considered appointed by God, all with the belief of the cross behind them would have been a very scary prospect indeed.
Not really much a change since unlike the Japanese emperor that is a living god, the Chinese emperor simply have the Mandate of Heaven.
Here is a different alternate history worth studying: What if Japan had converted to Orthodox Christianity? There have been some missions way before the catholic ones. Also, the first Orthodox mission to succeed was in 1861 which would make for 150 years if that would have succeeded. But if the smaller missions from before the XVth century had succeeded, it would have been even more interesting as there are vast differences from this scenario (most notably the one where Orthodox would not impose a Latin mass language, would have an import of Greek/Russian words in the Japanese vocabulary and so on).
I find this the most plausible scenario as well, as Catholicism's association with the Spanish Empire and fears of it being used to colonize the islands were what helped to spark the persecutions. Whereas Orthodoxy likely would have created the Japanese Orthodox Church had conversions been successful.
orthodox christianity had pretty much no presence in japan at the time. At this point it would justbe fan fiction
OMG, and I'd imagine the Ainu would convert before the Sisam.
@@wilsonriley1856 I find it by far the most implausible. The only orthodox missionaries that will have enough presence to go to Japan will be Russians in the late 1700s, at which point Japan had a closer relationship with the Dutch (or if we go by this scenario, the Portuguese). Orthodox Christianity would offer no real alliance nor would her missionaries be able to out-influence other factions. The first Orthodox Church was made in Japan in 1891 when Tzaravich Nikolai II was visiting, that's far too little of a presence to be able to realistically change the country's entire demographic.
Japan would've become protestant way more likely than becoming orthodox lmaoo
The awkward thing is, Japanese empress Michiko Shōda is a Catholic and she met the emperor of the sun during his "tennis" outing in a resort which operated by a Protestant church...
10:47 that depiction of a steamship is absolutely wild. I love it
I like how there’s essentially an unplanned sister video to this. I watched the first vid and it was actually so quality I was impressed. I get wanting and deeply respect having your own vid ideas, but being inspired by that vid is def not a sin I’m offended by
I saw the thumb and was like "hey was this from the Kings and Generals channel?" I love the way you guys inspire each other.
The timing here is bizarre. My wife and I started watching the box set of the 1980 miniseries "Shōgun" tonight. When we decided to call it a night and get ready for bed, I pulled up UA-cam on my phone and THIS video was suggested.
I'm super late to this, but I had assumed the timeline would be simply a matter of Sekigahara - most of the Christian daimyo were part of the so called "eastern alliance". Perhaps if any number of the battle's turncoats had decided not to join Tokugawa.
I think it would be more likely, interesting, and complicated if Japan syncretized to Christianity. That is, if their form of Christianity still had enough Shinto in its theology and practices for the Pope to consider them heathens.
Perhaps a new sub sect. But there is historic precedent of the Pope (or the Khalifs) tolerating fringe traditions in far away recently converted regions.
@@Hortifox_the_gardener It’s possible the Japanese Catholics could have become another branch of eastern Catholics like the Indian Catholic Church or byzantines
Similar to the Taiping rebellion in China
I’m not so sure about this, since clearly most Japanese converts were very zealous in their views and would probably be ardently Catholic, along with the fact the few remaining Christian’s after the suppression kept pretty close to basic Christian doctrines and when the Meiji period came about allowing religious freedom the majority of them returned back to mainstream Catholicism
I'd imagine they'd look a lot like the Celtic Christians of the early Middle Ages or Mexicans today: officially in communion with the Roman Catholics today, but keeping many native traditions
Just wanted to say I've been subscribed for along while and you always entertain and inspire not only my imagination but my love history and with the gaining acceptance of our lost history I kinda think the scenarios that have actually played over the millennia are and the alternative history you so aptly describe are more and more likely in one form or another
Kings and generals is one of my favorite channels, so much detail in an easily digestible format
any idea where I can find the artwork shown at the 2:00 mark
You forgot about Daitenku Taro Jurai from the small mountainous village of Shingō in the Aomori Prefecture. He had a brother named Isukiri who was crucified by the Romans around the first week of April in 33 AD in place of Daitenku who them fled back to northern Japan, married a farmer's daughter named Miyuko, fathered three kids, lived a peaceful life farming garlic, and died at the ripe old age of 106.
Even if Christianity in Japan had the same numbers/influence as Shintoism and Buddhism, the Japanese would still practice it for its aestheticism instead of ideology. Most Japanese use religion only for ceremonial/ritual purposes-weddings, funerals, retreats-and not really for guidance to daily life. The liberalization of Japanese society by the post-WWII constitution, which the United States had a significant hand in writing, in many ways dismantled idolization of supreme beings over the common people. Anyone who visits Japan during Christmas time would think the country is Christian for having so many lights and decorations, but it’s just for aesthetics at the end of the day. I’d even go as far as saying aestheticism IS Japan’s dominant “religion” 😆
But Christianity is neither Shintoism nor Buddhism. Christianity has a doctrine system which is far more stricter than Shintoism for example. In order to be regarded as a Christian you must agree with it's teachings. It's not enough to just dress like a Christian, but to also believe its theology.
Also Christmas has a very different significa in Japan, beign considered a romantic Holiday, (the same thing happened with South Korea), it's because of the import of the very consumerism driven Christmas of the US.
They CURRENTLY use religion for mostly ceremonial reasons, which is in response to the nationalization of Shinto in the 20th century. It's unlikely this would be true in an alternate Japan that adopted Christianity 300 years before
@@xunqianbaidu6917 The rituals are created by the theology, not the other way around. Christians drink the blood of their God because that's what their theology teaches.
@@xunqianbaidu6917 But they do it because it's in the Bible, they wouldn't do it otherwise.
I just have to make a suggestion on a future possible video which I think could be interesting.
What if Wat Tyler had survived his attack and enforced his demands winning the peasants revolt, possibly abolishing serfdom in England and maybe give more liberties and freedoms to the people 300 years early, if it went really well Henry IV could have been slain as a young boy preventing the house of Lancasters establishment and importantly the War of the Roses.
I have a good video idea how about if the Great Depression never happened? I think a lot of things would have changed also idk if you have already done this before
I love your videos. You are the one UA-camr that I love to see uploading. Your content is always top tier, please continue. I hope you have a great career in the future.
As Bill Wurtz puts it :
“Is loving Jesus legal yet?”
Japan : *No*
OK sure, said the Emperor who moved the capital to the East, and implemented a government and military that was pretty western.
I imagine that the emperor could become something like a hereditary bishop, despite the protests of the pope, and could perhaps claim to be descended from some saint or something similar to the Solomonic dynasty of Ethiopia
Saint Amatarasu even!
This Channel is an oasis in the desert of UA-cam content for history lovers💥💥🎞
10/10 would recommend the Martin Scorsese movie Silence, it’s about Portuguese missionaries going to Japan during this time period and witnessing what the Shogun was doing to the converts and why he was doing it.
EH the modernist aspects being added was kinda of a turn off(priests doing apostasy is super unlikely historically speaking)like how they added modernist aspects to Troy which end up butchering the Illiad's story
Finally. The Templar Knight X Samurai crossover I've been looking for.
AltHistoryHub: I watched recently on the infographics youtube channel Actual Reaston Why the Spartans Went Extinct... or something like that. And I started thinking, what would the world look like if Sparta never fell. What if their empire continued, would it have grown to the size of Rome and more? And if Sparta and the Spartan empire never fell, would things look like today? Would you be able to answer these questions?
Where can I find the picture at 1:58-59 mark????
If any of y’all want to watch a good movie about Christians in the Edo period, I would recommend Silence, directed by Martin Scorsese. Beautiful movie, featuring great performances by Andrew Garfield, Adam Driver and Liam Nesson.
Also samurai champloo had a few good episodes on that
I really liked Silence. Only issue is that Scorsese couldn't help himself in adding modern themes. The Japanese Christians were quite angry over this since of course there is European priest apostacy which just didn't happen in this historical event.
He even gives the priest an uncatholic theology toward the end where he adopts an extremely modern form of private practice.
@@darken2417 So it's kinda like The Last Temptation of Christ, then.
@@theobuniel9643
Not really since that was just completely egregious, malicious and purposefully so.
Its more like Scorsese wanted to make an artistic point toward the end but one that undermines the setting he was representing.
I still think he gave a good amount of respect to the historical event.
And to be fair the only people who would catch this stuff in Silence are historians, theologians, or Japanese Christians.
I'm sure most people can watch it and never realize that something is a bit off.
The author of the book I believe was Catholic
Also a possibility in this scenario is that Japanese christianity diverges from catholicism and becomes its own thing due to their distance and lack of direct control by Europeans
@Bosnia sucks There was also Eastern Orthodoxy coming from the Russian side.
The Phillipines is very close, I don't think it would diverge much.
The Spanish Philippines is just a boat away
I would say trade would keep the influence going. The Philippines and Mexico had the Pacific between them but ended up with similar flavors of Catholicism.
@@nunyabiznes33 Both had direct control from Spain. You cannot convince me that Quetzalcoatl wouldn't be turned into an Angel if the Aztec Empire had converted and kept its independence. I mean, they turned Brigid into a Saint, so, yeah.
10:35 ethiopia forgotem on the background be like 😔👍
Hey, I think it would be cool to make a video on a alternate korean peninsula. Maybe something like a expansionist Korea.
I think Japan would influence East Asia even less because of the Christianity. The conservative ideologies in Ming and Joseon combined with already present anti-Japanese sentiment from the imjin wars would cause Korea and China to push Japan even further away. I could see Japan getting closer with western powers instead and maybe even taking up the mantle of colonization by colonizing Ryuku and Taiwan a century earlier.
It would be like Americas. Complete copy paste of Europe.
A more interesting topic that I don't believe you have done is, "What if Japan had remained neutral in WW2?" or "What if Japan had been part of the Allies in WW2?"
Would be really nice to watch.
Well, Japan wouldn't have remained neutral, they literally wanted to conquer Asia. In the minimal scenario they go ahead with the original idea and strike at Soviets along with Poland somewhere in early 30s, perhaps quenching their imperialism for a while, Japanese had no common interests with the allies whatsoever, they had colonies that Japan wanted, the Axis didn't. Allies were careful with Soviets Japan was trying to either ensure permanent peace with them or dismantle the Soviet Union
@@dehydrateddarkness3565 I don't know why people have the need to say "it wouldn't happen". The vast majority of videos in this channel wouldn't happen. It's called Alternate History for a reason.
@@Shonendo Okay, you win. They gain nothing and lose nothing, they probably don't get involved too much The end
For this too happen japans empire would have to be recognised by the western powers after ww1 or earlier, as this would have greatly improved relations
@@dehydrateddarkness3565why do people like you have to ruin everything
good video covering an interesting topic
Something I would be interested in after seeing this video is what if Japan joined the United states, there was a fringe movement in Japan at some point that wanted to join the United States after World war II, makes me curious as to what that world would look like
I wonder if this would have happened. While it is a possibility remember another example of a new religion entering Japan: Chinese Buddhism. It became "accepted" after battles true and the goverment saying that they could adopt it, but at the end the relationship between Shinto and Buddhism is really interesting. Also, seeing you talked about Japan and Spain relationship, did you know that there was a population of japanese people in Spain? They were part of an embassy send by Hasekura Tsunenaga and 6 samurais decided to settle in Spain, and in that place at least 700 inhabitants conserve the surname of "Japón", which is how Japan is called in spanish.
What prevented Christianity from taking hold in the same way that other foreign religions like Buddhism did was how exclusivist and uncompromising it is by nature. Buddhism was initially viewed with similar suspicion, but it eventually found its niche by blending with existing Shinto traditions and adapting to the Japanese worldview. In some interpretations, buddhas and bodhisattvas were seen as foreign kami to be venerated just as the native ones, while others interpreted kami as beings that required guidance toward enlightenment just as any other, and Buddhist priests were known to travel to Shinto shrines to perform their services on behalf of kami.
Interestingly a similar syncretism was reported to have taken place during the initial period of Jesuit missionary activity in Japan before it was discouraged as heresy. Francis Xavier initially used the name Dainichi to communicate the Catholic Church’s concept of the Christian God, since it was the closest word to describing a supremely powerful and wise being. However, Dainichi was already the name used for both Vairocana, the dharmakaya (essentially the “true form”) of the Gautama Buddha as well as the Shinto sun goddess Amaterasu. Because the name was already used syncretically to refer to multiple figures, early converts as well as Shinto and Buddhist clergy had assumed Francis Xavier was teaching a new version of Buddhism or similar religion, and that the Christian God he was attempting to preach about was yet another aspect of this existing concept. Once learning of the true nature of the word, however, Francis Xavier quickly dropped it in favor of Deus.
What If Japanese or Chinese colonized Americas instead of Europeans ?
will be an interesting video
How about what if East Asia colonized the world while Europe remained Isolated basically the reversal of what happened
difficult WI but definitely interesting scenarios
@@Zeerich-yx9po Exploration, just like Europeans did.
I think the key problem is neither country would have even attempted that without *also* dramatically changing the situation at home for both countries. A China that colonizes the Americas for instance, would not have started in the Americas.
i would also like to add a little detail: catholicism ( the type of christianity the portuguese, spanish, and french follow) used to do a lot of syncretism in their mission to convert the masses of whatever place they arrived at. they mixed the cultural elements and beliefs of the people they wanted to convert with christianity, they harmonized worldviews together. thats why there are places like mexico and peru (all of the spanish speaking latin american world really) that have a lot of catholics, but still practice a lot of traditions that come from the indigenous population, with a christian spin on it per say. i wonder how that would have looked like if they tried that with japan.
Hey man, do a video on if the ottomans had invaded Italy (and by extension rome), they got pretty close, taking one town, but then Mehmed II got sick and died before anything came of it
0:38 Man pulled that quote straight from Bill Wurtz right there! Complete with the soundfile
8:51, that actually got me an idea to suggest: What if there was no Vatican II? It's kind of a hotbed topic among Traditional Catholics such as myself, so it would be interesting to dicsuss on the possible events that might happen if John XXIII didn't call for a new council way back 1959.
I love that little Bill Wurtz Jesus moment
Hey cody! I am a huge fan of your work. I would also love to see a vi on what if India became a christian nation.
Wars have very, very rarely been waged solely about religion. It has always been about money, resources, power and control.
I personally wonder what would’ve happened if America annexed Japan, Germany, Italy, or all three after World War 2. Or just the Axis being annexed in general.
@peter lmaoooooo
not sure why they would, the Philippines proved colonies and other foreign holdings don't work so well for America.
Hey, this is a really dumb idea.
1. Italy switched sides due to civil war, it couldn't have been annexed.
2. Germany was agreed to be split at the Yalta conference.
3. Japan is the only one that could have been annexed, and it technically was. It was a military government
So the only one possible did actually happen.
If you don't know this, you are very historically inept.
That would have been hard to do, considering they weren’t strobes in manpower compared to the soviets and even then they were kinda stretched out
@@that1worldcitizen152 it's also impossible because this person doesn't know history enough to realize this scenario doesn't make any sense.
I don't know if it would changed a lot but Japan was more literate than other Nations before opening to the world, this helped them to adapt faster in our time line. A lot of that education was given in school-temples. Would had had been adapted to become church-schools or would it had blocked education without the Shogunate giving suport?
#SUGGESTION
Hello Alternate History Hub. Cody, I believe. I was wondering if you could do a What if video, of Women ruling the world from 33AD to now?
I think that you're one of the only people knowledgeable enough, and capable enough, to make a meaningful analysis.
#SUGGESTION
At 16:19 America shows up so candidly, like Lalo Salamanca from better call Saul..
Jesus could walk on water,
babies are 85% water,
I can walk on babies
I am
In prison.
This video begs some questions. For example, does this mean Europe will eventually know how to use chopsticks and ramen might be invented a lot earlier?
P.S: Kings and Generals' channel is now being recognized by basically everyone now. So congratulations to the team even if you guys are not here at the moment. But still, the fact that many peoples are now recognizing them is definitely something great!
No on both accounts
Chopsticks would have no reason to be adopted by the West, as they already had tools that worked much better for their own specific diets. Ramen is also a Chinese invention, and only came to the island in the 1800's with Chinese immigrants.
Ramen was brought to Japan from China in the 19th century, I don’t know how that would make ramen be invented earlier.
@@plaguedoktor3563 Okay, this is totally just caught me off guard. Ramen was Chinese invention?! I thought ramen was invented in the aftermath of World War II along with foods such as okonomiyaki!
@@lerneanlion if it’s instant ramen you’re referring to, then yes it was invented in Japan due to a food shortage after WWII. However, actual ramen was brought over by Chinese immigrants in the 19th century
@@plaguedoktor3563 that's why it's written ラメン here in Japan rather than having its own kanji