Army Withdraws from the Pacific and Indian Ocean | Army Plans to Lay Up its Prepositioning Fleet
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- Опубліковано 6 тра 2024
- Army Sinks Its Fleet!
What's Going on With Shipping?
May 7, 2024
In this episode, Sal Mercogliano - a maritime historian at Campbell University (@campbelledu) and former merchant mariner - discusses the US Army decision to offload and lay up its afloat prepositioning fleet.
#supplychain #USArmy #pacific #prepositioning #shipping
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Defense Primer: Department of Defense Pre-Positioned Materiel
crsreports.congress.gov/produ...
The more incompetent people we promote the less effective we become.
The ethical intelligent ones move on. The rest stay and get promoted. I’m a Vietnam veteran.
guess which self-appointed smart chosen people makes around a quarter of all officers? the exact same ones HR 6090 was passed to forbid any criticism of. 🙄
The current executive has a lot of ties to China through family. He's doing what's best for himself and his family.
Nepotism
I have maintained for DECADES that at least half of high ranking officers are a waste of skin or worse corrupt. This is just more proof.
I was a armor company movement officer. The amount of transportation required to move an armored company (much less a battalion or a BCT) is insane. At that time, between the gulf wars, the plan was going to take multiple train and then ships to move our equipment anywhere... After we had it loaded, it was a one month waiting period before we flew to meet up with the equipment. I have friends that were in the 3 ID that had to be ready to fly their tank platoon any where in support of the 82nd. The amount of lift required for those 4 tanks / support / ammo etc was insane.
from what ive seen in germany, theres a whole local private industry in supplementing these logistics. and I remember US soldiers complaining about the lavish budgets to go with it.
Even to support a single aircraft you have a large ground support crew, from messing, to needing security there, to needing a whole slew of ground support equipment that has to go there. Plus you need a runway first and foremost, which is not easy to airlift. 6 aircraft needed at least 4 transport aircraft for crews and tools, and another 10 vehicle convoy with heavy trucks, that took the stuff that does not fit, and then another 2 dozen general purpose trucks, and 100 warm bodies, rented from the Army, to provide the grunt work to assemble tents, put up the camouflage revetments for the aircraft, and provide security for the perimeter. Then also you needed water tankers, a few fuel tankers, and as well generators for power, to run mess and power the ground equipment, plus an important one being the honeysucker to keep the smell down, and some form of garbage disposal as well.
I found a list of what was loaded on the USNS Watson in 1999, one of the 8 big modern ships that makes up most of APS 3 at Diego Garcia. Not 100% sure what all of them are, but it's a lot and that is one of 8 vessels.
AR BN HQ Armor Battalion HQ Company
2 AR CO Two Armor Companies (28 M1s + support)
2 MECH CO Two Mechanized Infantry Companies (lots of brads)
FA BTRY Field Artillery Battery (155mm SP)
FA SVC SPT Forward Support Company for FA Battalion (or part)
FIST Fire Support Team (For the Armor Battalion)
2 ADA PLT Two Air Defense Platoons (probably brads)
ENG CO Engineer Company
MI CO Military Intelligence Company
CM CO Chemical Company
MP PLT Military Police Platoon
MST Maintenance Support Team ???
2 HET PLT Two Heavy Equipment Transport Platoons
HET PLT HQ HET Co HQ Platoon
TC PLS PLT Truck Company PLS Platoon
OD PLT Ordinance Platoon?
2 TC CGO PLT Two Truck company Cargo Platoon ?
EN CO CBT HY Engineer Company, Combat, Heavy
CGO XFR CO Cargo Transfer Company
SPD ???
POL SUP PLT POL Supply Platoon
TC PLS CO PLT Truck Company Palletized Load System Company Platoon
TC POL PLT Truck Company Petrolum, Oil, and Lubrication Platoon
MSC Movement Control Team
@@k53847 yup the person that thinks getting ride of ship instead of replacing old ships is STUPID !!
"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." Albert Einstein
But that would be...what, 6 C17s? Maybe 5 in a pinch? That is a big chunk of aircraft in a normal sense, but not for a combat op.
EDIT: You meant total sustainment over a whole deployment, didn't you? Not just having tanks on hand for an airfield seizure, like Panama in 1989.
"I like big boats, I can not lie" 😂🤣😂 The comedy here is subtle but not absent! 😂🤣😂 Sal Got Back!
+100 for Baby Got Back reference.
Was wondering how many caught that quick jab. 😂
That's when I paused and hit "like"
I watch about everything from Dr Sal.
I'm a maritime professional, and Master Mariner, and Sal is a great resource.
And I too like big boats, and can not lie.
Lego was like "That ocean is too vast. Too blue. It needs a boat"
I hadn't got to that part when I first read this comment and was like TF is this guy talking about lmao.
For good reason.
"I like big boats, I cannot lie": Sal mix a lot.
Sal, what makes your channel and you so valuable to US citizens is that you are an existential reporter and historian. You not only report on "What is Going on With Shipping", but you advocate for what should be going on with shipping and why! You rationally state the current status of affairs and the main perspectives involved, and then you cogently argue for any changes you reason are prudent. What that does for busy Americans whom are trying to be responsibly involved in the running of a democracy is it quickly brings us up to speed on a topic, makes us aware of the main schools of thought concerning the topic, and gives us a proposition worth considering for our social and political support. That is exactly what we need and want, and I thank you for providing that service in such a professional manner.
Outstanding comment!
"trying to be responsibly involved in the running of a democracy" You HAVE to be joking. You Americans do not live in a 'democracy' - your political model is as corrupt as they have ever been in history. Reform your two Houses, remove lobbying groups, set term limits, remove dual-loyalty politicians from Office. That's a good start, but keep going. The sight of little UKR flags being waved by your defective Members was nauseous.....
Great info for the enemy...
"We are pivoting to the Indo-Pacific, where we will not need any ships at all to sustain any sort of logistical capacity, because the Indo-Pacific is a place with lots of land, where we land-lovers belong. Yessiree, no oceans here."
the _morro-nick_ Perfumed Princes of the Pentagon™ strike again. smart dudes, dudettes and abominations our ancestors never though were in our future... 😘🤢
SNAFU & FUBAR!!!
Every country in the region already has KFC and Pizza Hut, so logistics are not a problem...
the recent iranian isnotreal interaction showed that 1 day into a war in pacific there will be no surviving bases to land boats at. they are getting rid of them because they are a cost that can be cut without really effecting war fighting ability in a peer power conflict
As a Navy retiree, I to have to admit - You haven't won the war unless you have boots on the ground.
I wish congress would call you to testify to the need to keep these ships in readiness
No only keep it but expand it
Truth! I'm not a huge fan of our bristling military ready to wage war, but this seems like a preparedness and security issue.
If we have to transport people or equipment quickly, we can't do it effectively. That should be so wrong to these generals. Instead, they're oblivious.
Ready for WHAT??,aren't American s sick of war, war war, whens the last time the U.S fought against a well established and equipped modern army...ready for who? What? Why?
Leaving the expeditionary missions to the Marine Corps … who are a branch of the Navy as they constantly remind us marines
Hint: They are called MARINES for a reason... Marines arent very bright, lol.
@@Despiser25 I scored so high on the ASVAB they wanted to send me to OCS .. but I had read catch 22 .. so I said No ..
Our crayons are tho!@@Despiser25
What’s your point
The Marines got rid of their tanks. They gave them to the Army and they just put them in storage. Countries don’t want them right now. They want new tanks and/or tanks that they can produce partially or completely in country.
Good...no need to pre-position anything...it is long past time we stopped starting wars everywhere and went home to deal with our own issues.
You are the only one to say what's important !! Nothing but warmongers in this video !!! No words but weapons of war !! Sickening to see this immorality and support for war!! Is this what GOD WANTS FROM MEN ?? glorifying killing , death, destruction turns them on ???
And become sitting ducks awaiting invasion? Brilliant idea bro
@@nunyah8705 Yeah because we're so at risk of an invasion at home. Concern yourself with geography and relax a bit. We start the wars, we don't have any real experience suffering the consequences of landings on our shores or our cities being firebombed. Transport ships are not about self defense if you're moving the Army to another continent. Think before you speak.
@@nunyah8705😂😂😂
@@ColonelHoganStalag13💯💯💯
Sal - Excellent analysis. I'm a retired officer, most of my time in Army Engineer units, reserve components after my years on active duty. I still remember the team that showed up in late August 1990 to help us plan movement to mobilization station and identify sea lift requirements follow on. After the first 4 hours the lead guy looks at us and says 'I never realized one engineer battalion like yours has more rolling stock than an armor brigade'. And forget airlift - we had equipment that because of size and/or floor loading (i.e. axle/tire spacing) could not be airlifted by any aircraft. With your background, understanding and research you should be teaching at the Army War College. Too often in our history we have forgotten the lessons learned in blood the last time around. Keep up the good work.
Well, the welders are going to have to make a boat in a day and I have faith in those guys. They never changed and are still able to do it. See many young people who can do it too
Reserve vessels not available? Who would have guessed that.
There are only 223 C-17s and 50 C-5s in the USAF. A C-5 can take 2 tanks a C-17 one. It's still rail and boat to move s large force with vehicles.
This really hits home the Army’s “Tooth-to-Tail” logistic ratio of 10-1. 10 support units for every 1 infantry unit. Or as Gen. Omar Bradly best put it, “amateurs talk strategy and professionals talk logistics.”
Then picks a fight with Russia without enough ammo.
@@class2instructor32?
It would seem that leadership in the U.S. is neglecting the discussion of logistics. What does that say about them?
Marine General Smedley D Butler did the best analysis
That’s been the problem for decades… logistics ships are always the back burner until it is half dead and can’t be ignored.
Maybe make _more_ use of these vessels and crew. Use them for routine transport of military goods and personnel instead of paying commercial shippers. This might be an example of full life cycle cost vs. short term per use cost. It might cost more to send individual personnel and/or their household goods across the atlantic to their new stations overseas this way vs. buying tickets and paying movers to pack and ship, but part of that cost would be amortising the cost of maintaining those ships and paying personnel to sit around and wait for a conflict. This could drive and improve the fleet's readiness and efficiency, as they would be actively working.
Great common sense idea! But considering they've lost the whole purpose for the prepositioning fleet, I think they might need someone to break it down to crayons.
It’s cheaper to outsource than to do it in house because of maintenance cost, labor, fuel, benefits etc plus a Congressman can’t profit off insider trading from buying stock in that commercial shipper or get “campaign contributions” or expensive trips paid for by lobbyists or kushy revolving door job waiting for them in the private sector if we spend more money on the Army logistics . If you think the Army logistics ships are old, you should see the floating rust buckets that the few commercial shippers use that are still American flagged. Yikes.
We have way too many politicians in Congress, many of whom are on important defense committees who have never served a single day in any military branch of our armed forces, and have absolutely no knowledge of military affairs or military history whatsoever. While our politicians in Congress were bragging how we would blow the Japanese Navy out of the water prior to the Pear Harbor attack, they failed to notice that in July of 1939, the Navy had "only two transports, three cargo ships, three oilers and one ammunition ship in commission." Historians will look back and call this "The age of the incompetents." Thanks Sal, for another great video. I wish you could testify before Congress, then we'd at least have a realist with actual experience in shipping.
It has nothing to do with military experience. If you can take a map, show a person they are here with a bunch tanks, fuel trucks, etc... and they cannot answer how you get across the blue part with said tanks, you have a problem with the human in general. And to be blunt, there are far more former military personal working as lobbyists and defense contractor specialists that are in congressional offices day in and day out than members of congress, and apparently none of them are pushing the issue either. And you apparently also missed the part where none of the military leaders said anything about it to Congress either.
@@LackofFaithify Pretty much what this guy said. If you spend any amount of time in the military outside of the typical 4 year (or even 3 year back when I enlisted) 'I joined for the GI bill and college money' guys, your best out after putting in your time is jumping ship directly over to the private sector. You get to have a lot of the same "fun" perks you had access to in the military, but you get air conditioning, breaks, and on top of it all make bank doing it. I don't want to go as far as saying those people who end up in the private sector and/or end up lobbying Congress will 'sell out', for lack a better term, their own country and watch it go to hell all because they're making money hand over fist doing it, but well... kinda makes you wonder.
Either money changes people *that* much and alters one's willingness to not speak up or ask questions and would just sit passive watching things happen that you know are bad for the country just because you don't want to get booted off the gravy train, OR the other option of it's honestly just as bad as we probably think it is and those people just realize the military industrial complex is so engrained into our politics and economy that no matter what they do, the corruption isn't going away and nothing is going to change whether they blow a whistle or not, so they just try and get theirs while they have the opportunity and hope to check out eventually before losing their entire soul to that entire DC cesspool.
@@fubar5884 No, his point was that there are not enough MoC with time served in the military sitting on defense related committees. My point is that this is a complete load of BS as there are even more former members of the various components of the military doing the lobbyist merc routine as there are actual congress critters. Because you were in the military means absolutely nothing when it comes to our revolving doors: they are just as happy to engage in the many ways corruption has been legalized in this country as anyone else. The very first part was just pointing out that if some one can't grasp that the US needs sea transport to move all of our heavy metal across the blue stuff, they are either insanely stupid, or back to the corruption, I mean lobbyist/revolving doors, issue.
@@LackofFaithify Dude, I was agreeing with your original post. You need to get off the internet for a bit if you walk away from a "Yeah ditto" remark as someone contrasting what you said.
@@fubar5884 Misread your opening sentence as a reference to the original post.
Always liked that Leglobe in the background
It adds an incredible level of sophistication to Sal's channel. 😅
"Big boats I can not lie"... lol Sal! 🤣
Great info. We have a history of not being prepared to fight wars. This is going to cost lives.
Wars always cost lives
It's not that you are not preparing for war you always think that you have a superior military and the rest of the world are Sandler wearing goat hearders. Even the sandle wearing goat hearders of Afghanistan destroyed your military.
As a former US Army soldier, I can say that I wish I knew the Army had its own boats back when I joined in 1990. 🚢
I went to the Army National Guard, just so I could spend my 6 years ( 1975-1981) on Army Vessels 😊 when I first went in before Basic, the First Sargent found out I loved all things boating 😊 he said he would get my paperwork in order for me to transfer from the ( let's go out on a Army Base) and play cards between shooting tons of ammo. It was so boring. He said what ever Company Commander says, just keep telling him, I want to be on BOATs for my 6 years. And he was so right, the CO just yelled at me, his numbers needed soldier, why in God's green earth 🌎 would I want to be on ships, why did I not go in Navy then. I told him I joined to be home, and just do 6 years weekend DRILLS, two weeks of summer camp ( and it was like boy scouts summer camp) anyway I just kept repeating myself. The CO said he would make my life hell, on weekend DRILLS. All he would have me do is ( KP) my whole point is it's like Army Leadership steers the younger NEW people AWAY from any on the water training, except back then, you did a drill with Army rubber rafts. (Army Rangers) Later on we did special training with Army Rangers in the area. ( LCM-8s) The majority of the whole unit was full of LCMs. We also had the sister ship of the movie ( Mr.Rodgers) 😊 we had a very old crane ( that when surplus) bought by a private marine contractor. Is still working today in his fleet of crain barges. Again I can't stress it enough, the powers to be shy any NEW recruit AWAY from anything on the WATER the Army does. In my Humble opinion it's so the command can say "LOOK" Army bean counters we don't have the personal to keep this ready Reserve fleet operational
The great First Sargent pushed my paperwork through, although my MOS did not change ( Wheel vehicle Mac.) it still helped me working on my favorite duty a
45 foot Tug. You now how people forget there DI from basic name ( ST-2154) was the baby tug I spent 6 years on. Sadly my great unit that had a huge ( FMS) barge was switched to Army Reserve fleet. They did get some very Advanced build type of tugs Tow/ tug boats, so both push bows and big Ballard pull winches on stern. My 45 foot badly had no galley and only two bunks. The new builds have full gallys and crew quarters. They put a enclosed pilot house and raised the structure on the LCMs. When I was in they looked like WW-2 Landing crafts. With just open tops and rifle slots. I saw inside of the updated ones at a port open house. The design of the enclosed helm was amazing how they gave room for small galley and berthing.
YES even at very end of Vietnam, they were pushing every new soldier in Army away from a time in service NOT to be in water. It really made my 6 years enjoy cruising on that small Tug 😊❤😊
@@rp1645 Sargent Shriver?
I sailed on the Soderman and Pomeroy. This breaks my heart. Diego Garcia was truly the coolest place I’ve ever been.
WOW. I totally believe that you taught at Westpoint! That was a Masters-Level discussion of the history and necessity of Army sealift capabilities! My hat is off to you, sir!
The General might want to read Captain A.T. Mahan's book "The Influence of Sea Power Upon History, 1660 -1783."
I've got a great comment about this but it's laid up in Charleston and won't make it here for another 6 weeks.
In '94 we got deployed to Saudi when Saddam was showing his butt. They flew us all there, and we drew from the afloat prepo. It took us 3 weeks to unload the BDE set off the boats, inspect, and put them back on when there wasn't GWII.
So basically if you don't have the equipment already on the ships, you have to fly troops to where ever the equipment is, get the ships there, spend a week loading, sail the ships to whereever they are needed (several more weeks), and then another week off loading. Hope your war isn't over yet...
“Saddam showing his butt” ! Do I detect some American jingoism there !
@@khunmikeon858 Do you forget who Saddam Hussain was?
@@khunmikeon858 I think you detect some 'I like leaders who aren't using chemical weapons against their own people' jingoism. I don't care what your nationality is, I'd like to think we could all agree on that much.
@@obsidianjane4413 Wasn't he the cousin of Saddam Hussein- the guy the US propped up and armed against Iran until they didn't need him anymore?
@@lzcontrol Which do you have more of pedantry or simpleton?
You've heard the term crisis management? This is one way it comes about. Lay up or sell off assets of our fleet, then when we need them, panic.😡🙄
crisis management actually means making crisis....to make money out of it...
(an open secret nobody wants spilled out in the open)
Sir Mix A Lot reference at 19:04 My man Spitting bars... This would be an amazing DOD contract. While in the interim running cargo to help keep the fleet sustained as a business.
"I like big boats and I cannot lie,
You other brothers can't deny"...
It could be a good PR campaign slogan by Sir Mix, he's from Seattle, they have a base in Bremerton. Thanks.
This is news to me, but I've been retired since 2007. Prior to that I was a CENTCOM logistics planner from 1994-2000, so I kept track of prepropositioned stock levels (which had dropped dramatically thanks to Desert Storm) and the location of all afloat support assets (Army, Navy, and USAF). I also deployed to Bright Star 98 and ended up running the traffic management office for the exercise. It was a joint operation that included a Navy officer who spent his entire tour planning the reloading of the RO/RO ship in Alexandria, Egypt. During OIF I worked at the Air Staff as a Logistics Readiness Officer where monitoring the status of all USAF Prepo was a major concern. I cannot fathom what senior leadership is thinking now. I must presume this is an economy move intended to save a few dollars. The future cost in human life and treasure is a bill I doubt any of these flag officer will ever have to pay, but somebody will.
The cost in human life has already been huge with them
This is something which I didn't consciously know a lot about, but maybe picked up on living in the Norfolk/Virginia Beach area. Logistics and preparation seemed common sense to me. Hearing Sal talk about what these brass in DC are doing, makes me wonder if they've completely forgotten relatively recent history.
Even if we're not fighting a war, those ships play a vital role, especially in humanitarian situations. It's been mortifying to see the pier/humanitarian aid project be delayed by rickety vessels breaking down. Not a good look.
Also, another person who talks about our military's readiness, though in completely different contexts, is Beau of the Fifth Column. You might find him interesting.
@@erinmac4750 Thanks, I'll look him up.
Stop talking down on yourself! Your life is awesome! You get to talk about your favorite topic to thousands of people on a daily basis. Most people never get to pursue their passion. You are so lucky!
🤣 I know...I am lucky!
Sal, the legacy historian 🔥
The older a historian is, the more first hand knowledge of the subject they have... 😂
Thanks for another great video, Sal!
I'm watching videos about Battleship New Jerseys current drydocking. Just outside the drydock is one of the roll-on/roll-off ships anchored. New Jersey looked like a toy boat compared to that massive transport ship. Man, ships have become so enormous over the last 80 years since New Jersey was build.
I had no idea the Air Force had pre-positioning ships. It's obvious when you think about it, though.
We drove from Hood to Houston to get 95% of our battalion's on a ship. The rest was flown to Saudi Arabia.
I don't think the air force have prepositioned ships...the air force has their stock on land. So they would fly their crew to pick up the stock, but it would be closer than the US, and allow less cargo planes to be used.
My Father was a Radioman 1st class onboard an US AIR FORCE RESCUE VESSEL in Jamaica 😂
Damn seeing the full diagram of the army brigade was very eye-opening on how incredibly complex the logistics side of military planning really is
When he first showed it, me a former Army Combat Engineer said "Wait, that's not right" Then he showed the whole thing and I said, "Ah, there we are, down in the corner!"
At a time when our potential adversaries are modernizing and growing their capabilities we are increasingly allowing our systems to deteriorate and capabilities to shrink. This pattern is proof we have either forgotten the lessons history has (repeatedly) taught us, or this is a intentional effort to weaken our defenses.
Lol international effort to weaken U.S, what a joke, no no that will be U.S causing it's own weakness U.S foreign policy is crumbling and as a result your country becomes isolated, you should know by now majority of us around the world dont like war, specially if your paying for it,
Fascinating view into something most Americans have no knowledge of and yet our military is always working to project American power. Thanks for the insight.
"Human beings have a unique tendency to live on land." Is this so deep that I am missing something?
I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully.
@@JinKee Mr Limpet pulled it off …!
Yes but they seem to pay the most money to live near water!
@@stephenrickstrew7237And many of us know how that turned out.... 🧜🏼♀️😎✌️
Makoko would like a word..
I worked as the Communications Officer on the MV Jack Lummus out of Guam, supporting Commodore Richard Bump's staff some years back. Sad to see the changes...
Sad ?? Support for war and killing ?? Insults your killer instincts ???
@@OO7sMom October 7th just proved that war and killing doesn't go away just because we turn our eyes away. You can prepare for war, or you can prepare to hope your conquerors will be gentle with you.
There is No Better youtuber I could think of to sit and drink a beer with. Thank you Sal.
As usual, you have hit the nail on the head. Short term gains lead to long term losses.
Had the 2009 opportunity to attend a Dartmouth College Tuck School semester class "not all leaders are equal" one example was an Army Material Command 4 star who enjoyed buying ships and ports for several hours demonstrated that not just ships are substandard.
Withdrawal recall I'm having shades of 1938 1940 pre-World War II lowering of Readiness status flashbacks... 23:20 😮
If you understood how the Army War College and that sort of academic level of thinking worked, you would see that getting rid of the ships is a natural part of the process of force reshaping. They understand when a real war pops off, there's no time to get ships loaded and across the ocean. The sea lanes will be risky and the event largely turning nuclear in short order. Minor conflicts or proxy wars like Ukraine can be dripped in without being impacted by the lack of ships.
I prefer to live on the sea, but now I'm a farmer. Looking for a boat or a ship.
Was once in the Norwegian merchant marine . Thanks for the video, Sal.
Greetings from -Gabriel of Norway.
So they're thinking about doing D-Day without the boats??
The point is they're NOT thinking of doing a D-Day, particularly with no notice.
Do you know HOW LONG it took to get ready for D-Day?
We need to send a brigade somewhere (Ukraine?) next week why?
@gandydancer9710 I'm reminded of the cocksure and self confident plans for Operation Sledgehammer (invasion of France in late '42) and how they barely scraped enough tonnage for the more distant but numerically less ambitious Torch landings, and still had a ton of operational losses and inefficiencies against an opponent that put up only token resistance (Vichy France).
This seems like a risky move when there's no longer the manpower and industrial base to spin up and churn out supplies and merchant vessels like the 1940s, particularly when the lethality of modern antishipping weapons are considered. What there is on-hand might be all there is for the duration of a modern conflict in the SCS.
They started before September 1942… (overlord planning) and the waterproofing of vehicles was only reliable in 9/10 vehicles by March 1944. Having started proofing back at the start of 43.
All in support of landing.
@@TheRealHooptiesOfGeneseeCounty How is the problem that we can't replicate the invasion of France in '44 solved by creating the ability to move a brigade for some period before it's declared that all the ships built to do it are too old? What seems to me like worse than a "risky move" is spending $billions on dumbness that will get us nothing important.
@@gandydancer9710 "why?"
When Putin send his orcs into Poland or Latvia and they throw down the Art. 5.
The huge stockpiles and the sealift capacity the US maintained throughout the Cold War and even today, is from the painful lesson that lack of capability costs lives.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.
Thanks Sal.
Just a plug for the channel. Keep posting and I will keep watching.
Peace!
Phenomenon insight from a professional SME…I pray someone in our pentagon is watching and listening to Sal…a national treasure.
Preposition is a great idea when you control the sea, we don't anymore.
Thank you for another thought provoking video Sal.
I wish every 1,000th person to drop the "professionals talk logistics" line had a compulsion to educate themselves on topic. Thanks for keeping us in the game Sal!
Love your content Sal keep up the great work! Your knowledge and experience is so insightful on everything afloat
Thank you, Sal, for not having a life listening to hearings - you are a life saver!
"Back in the day," as a young Marine returning Stateside from Nam, my unit were passengers on USS General Man AP-111? 112?
My rack was on the top of seven with my head inches away from the underside of the galley deck. I had my own personal alarm clock: EVERY DAM DAY at 0345 SHARP and with no mercy or neighborly courtesy, someone would DRAG a 50 Gallon mixing kettle from one opposite corner to the other ... why ohh why could they not have just left it where they needed it, after scrubbing, the night before was way too high over their paygrade.
It waaas heavy. It was dragged, unceremoniously, and in my opinion, deliberately ultra-slowly over as many deck folds as possible to benefit their full spectrum of appreciation of having to feed a battalion of Marines (1-1-3) from Da Nang to San Diego. There was another Marine organization on board, too - I don't remember who they were but we were a reinforced battalion meaning we had additional units like heavy mortars, light and medium artillery, large motor pool, tanks and crews.
I guess there were about 2000 Marines on board, no fights, calm seas, nothing to do: we were tasked with relaxation, twice a day muster, cards, monopoly, naps in the sunshine or sleeping in the moonshine 'cause berthing was excruciatingly hot when cooks lighted the stoves for the day; and repeat for about 20 days. All in all, it wasn't too bad a voyage; not at all like Norwegian Cruise Line, but we caught up on a lot of missed sleep and time without tension and stress.
BTW: your shirt is a TEN!
Have a nice day.
(I think the Mann was decommissioned about 1976 and probably went to scrap: it was old!)
Great story!
Spent time on an LPH. The hammocks were not great. But we we claimed a ready room with the ocean breeze and a view. One guy had an eight track! Nobody said anything . The Navy were too busy and Marine officers kept to themselves in officer territory. But it got loud when choppers were right above warming up. No, wouldn't have liked it down where you were. Too deep.
One Admiral said a few years ago: "The fastest way of moving 100 tons is by air; the fastest way of moving 100,00 tons is by sea".
Sal, you have outdone yourself with this one, you have taken me back to my first job out of engineering school...analyst at the Center for Naval Analyses. They assigned me to evaluate the lighterage required to get all that rolling stock from the Rapid Deployment Force to the beach (the ships had to carry it of course since we didn't know if the host countries would have the right size /type of craft.) I was duly horrified with the number of craft that were needed and how quickly the time to debark increased if the ship had to anchor further offshore. This was the Marine version, not the Army's; I was aware of the latter but we were doing the study for the Marines at the time -- 1979.
Thanks for the book recommendations, Sal! 😎✌️
I wish that my knee was still good, as a retired Oceans Master, I would volunteer to serve in order to keep the Military SeaLift Command strong.😊
Bless this man
The reason for no discussion on getting rid of the pre-positioning ships, is because of the dissenting voices would brand those individuals as personnel that the CIC "Has lose confidence in". That's the new speak for "shut up or your career is done".
Record show that the sultan did take on water and had a ruptured fuel tank and refloted. It was scrapped in 1987. It stated that the ship was headed to Vietnam in June of 1965 and some of us we're left off in Korea. It was originally committed commissioned as the USS Benson. It changed military hands several times. It was transporting people all over the world during world war II and thereafter.
After hearing a lot of things lately, and then look at past military decisions, and now looking at future plans. I'm starting to think the dismantling of America is completely intentional
You are struggling with a dilemma. How do you provide for Americans and provide for national defense? You are correct that it is intentional. Something has to be sacrificed if you want to provide Americans with cheaper health care, get through COVID, build out industrial capacity, pay off college student debt, etc… This has always come at the cost of the military, because is discretionary spending. The United States has the luxury of two large oceans and fairly peaceful neighbors. This stuff is fun to talk about and learn about, but it is not currently necessary within the constraints of the military budget.
Our billionaires looked at pre-covid russian oligarchs with their yachts paid for with corruption money, got jealous, and said "I'll have what they're having!"
Yeah and China just pays Biden as an advisor lol.
Unfortunately the Neoliberalist politicians since Regan are paid for by lobbyists focused on a profit, and not country.
@@wyw876Spot on.
The Big Boats comment was genius.
during the desert shield / storm build up the air force put 2 m-1 abrams on each c-5 for shipment. this required refueling 4 times in the air to make the flight. that would be 7 flights just too move a tank company.
Thanks for the ongoing updates on all the important stuff, Sal!
Love your stuff man!!! :) I think you've got a great life!! ;P Love the community feedback - HILARIOUS!! Thanks for making a subject not thought about so fun to learn about!!! All the best.
I appreciate it!
Excellent content, Sal!
In my time in the reserves we unloaded one of those prepositioned cargo ships at MOTSU in Wilmington, North Carolina back in 2018. That’s when I learned of the importance of the prepositioned ships. Then the following year we loaded up an LMSR in Charleston with a bunch of 82nd’s vehicles for training. That was cool and eye opening on how long it takes to load them up. Doesn’t seem too wise to get rid of that program. And to hear this at the same time that we’re getting kicked out of many African countries…. Yea. Doesn’t sound good.
Nice work, well-reasoned. Thanks!
So is this an example of more shortsidedness on the part of the military?
They are having a recruitment issue.
@@randywise5241Especially with the current administration and politics in the Pentagon.
Shameful.
No, this is adapting to new conditions and circumstances in the World Order... IMO.
Putting a port on the shore of Gaza is not impressing me with the necessity of spending $billions on maintaining that kind of capability. So, no, what you call "shortsightedness" I call a glimmering of fiscal common sense.
Wonder what China's MSC capabilities will be. They can easily commandeer civilian crew and vessels in times of war, given that they are an authoritarian regime.
The US government can do the same. It's done it before.
China's been speedrunning extra ROROs in the last year, in order to dump excess EV production anywhere else other than empty valleys at home, but if push comes to shove...
Sal: thanks for taking the hit for us all by not having a life. Your summaries are great! Listening to you has helped me thin in terms of supply and logistics - useful thinking when selling complicated technical stuff!
You are so knowledgeable about shipping of any kind and a passion for the subject it is quite impressive and I learn so much of a topic I never knew existed or considered but which is a crucial topic concerning how our military operates. Thank you for your info and enthusiasm.
A C-17 can carry 2 abrams tank at max load. The C-17 cost 100k+ per hr to fly (maint, crew pay, fuel, etc). That comes to over a $1M per flight to europe/africa for 2 tanks. It's much more if you account for the cost of return trip, refueling aircraft and any other aircraft to escort them.
Now tell us how much buying an Abrams and having it ready for combat costs so we can compare that with the deployment cost and get a feeling for just how relevant your numbers are.
and that is why they left so much stuff in afghanistan and other places. the same tank cost ~20 million at the shop, but the cost after a few year of usage and such and it drops significantly. and the real problem not even starts at the start. to maintain that tank it will need almost as much support in stuff every year if not used, every month if lightly used, or every week if it is even remotely close to combat usage.
In combat use for 1 hour it needs 8 hours service.
The C-17 can only carry one Abrams tank
@@thorin1045 I had a feeling logistics were involved. When you're bringing in commercial planes to back-up the big dogs in moving people.... that's some shtf situation.
Also, it also underscores why the war in Afghanistan was so costly. Thanks, GW, Rumsfeld, and Cheney.
Ooo, Sal, that rhyme was pretty sly but still shipping sharp
Love it
Thank you. I had lost sight of what the MWI had done in podcasts recently. I’ve just downloaded several hours worth.
Love that shirt! It also made the best discount weatherman performance even better! Great one overall, thanks Sal!
Resurrecting Eisenhower's "New Look" strategic posture? That worked well.
We are in Eisenhower's new look right now. How's that working out for you? The trouble with these "new looks" is that they don't bring in their limitations. These programs must have boundaries on all sides.
they're also working hard on resurrecting "McNamara's morons" but this time they're promoting 'em to the top... 😋👌
Cost of a new roll on roll off ship estimated 600 million. Cost of a new C-17 aircraft estimated 400 million (Estimates from the net 7 May)
And they have the same crew requirements, right?
But operational costs are equivalent, or not?
In the early 1990's, the estimated costs for the C-17 and the RORO was around 200million for each. The ships that are being retired now probably cost 200million.
The C-17 is out of production. The cost would include setting up a new production line.
A C-17 can lift one M-1 tank. The RORO can carry 50 or so M-1's, 100 Infantry Fighting Vehicles, a Battalion of Howitzers and supporting wheeled and tracked vehicles.
The question will always be "the color of the money". Where does it go and what fund does it come from?
LTG William 'Gus' Pagonis's book "Moving Mountains" has considerable details on the logistics of Desert Storm/Shield. It includes the arrival of prepositioned supply ships.
Well firstly the C-17 is infinitely expensive given that production no longer exists. However lets just go with C130 which is 75 million. You can pretty much replace a c17 with 3 c130's its not perfect. more fuel, more pilots etc. But more flexability and nicely given were going to teh pacific much more places you can land as far as unimproved airfields and short runways.
But we can probably make 3 new c130's quite a bit faster than a new roll on. That's a bit sad but true. Though perhaps if we just said screw it and asked for example south korea to build them for us we could get them quickly while we built the ship building facilities stateside to eventually take over.
@@sparkzbarca Why would we want to "take over" if the Koreans can do it?
I love your enthusiasm and expanded knowledge that the average person, has no knowledge of! To me, you come across as the perfect person for the stations in your life that you have held! thank you for being as precise and detailed as you are without leaving us lost and dumbfounded.
Wow, thank you!
Sall I enjoy your channel to no end!! You put a tremendous amount of work into it and it helps a lot of young people considering the maritme industry.
Thank goodness for your humor
Without Humor it would be a dreary story
"you need big boats, I can not lie"
@@stephenrickstrew7237American incompetence and imperial decline
As a retired Master Mariner who has served on several of the Prepositioning ships, I feel the Army, and the other forces, are making a mistake by getting rid of these ships. They are special built for the military use and have always proven themselves as an asset. An answer to the failure problem is to not let them sit around at the dock for so long. In Diego, all the ships did surveillance cruises at least once a month and then we also had fleet cruises where we all went out and practiced maneuvers together. This kept the ships active, and breakdowns were fewer. I have stories about this but that is for another time.
They worry about having enough Amphibs, when a little imagination and they could have much larger amphibs for less money.
We must stop trying to play the image of ancient Rome, history proves that no nation which became morally decadent ever yet survived. All this military spending for constant show of enforcing our will upon others for the sake of a fiat currency hegemony is actually destroying us rather than making us greater and more accepted as a nation. America must see America first when politicians meet and legislate at every level for the sake of survival as not only a nation, but for the sake of individual rights and freedom according to the Constitution and our Bill-Of-Rights, We as a nation are using this currency system of reserve currency as a weapon and a ruse for making us appear as something we are not. Freedom cannot be sustained by the will and manipulation of a few oligarchs in the banking and industrial complex, " We the People " are the hope of what our forefathers envisioned not this damned oligarch controlled system which is driving the world to nuclear annihilation for their lust of control.Militaristic expansion will not sustain us as a nation, we must return to sustaining and rebuilding our country, economically, politically, culturally, and independently or else we shall surely come to the end of our existence because of a self deceived ideology we are exceptional in the history of nations.We were at one time exceptional when we truly promoted peace but that was many years ago and now we are a nation in decline not by foreign design but by our own self deceived vanity and arrogance. In my opinion not only this military shipping should be scrapped, but our worldwide military base and compound deployments should be closed and our troops brought home now not later for the sake of national survival which is the most current and imminent need for national survival at this juncture of history.
Sal, you have a life and a very important one that educates us on a topic that is totally ignored by the general public. Thank you😮😊
Fascinating video, thank you.
SO the Army obviously don't expect to have to go anywhere in the near future....
they're gonna be pretty busy tyrannizing their own civilian populations for the sake of their kosher elites.
You are a fascinating guy....
Thanks Sal. Well received in South Africa
Sal, Great job on breaking down the potential of the US Army's consideration (and I'd say, decision) to lay up these important and necessary ships. It is helpful, thanks!
Idk shit but it seems like, to me, that they are positioning for PRIVATIZATION of warfighting.
So far behind on ship building:(
Behind what?
Ya behind what most of what China is building hardly works or can't be filled to even be used.
Thanks Sal. Great update and book recommendation.
Much Respect Sal
Maybe current leadership should read some of what Norman Schwarzkopf said after Desert Storm. When asked what was his worst fear he said running out of bombs. It's not that we didn't have enough bombs but that they were not where they were needed. The ships carrying them were poorly maintained. They'd been laid up for years. There were not enough mariners to man them. I was on the SS California at the time. It was so bad that the unlicensed unions were taking recently released convicts, with minimal training and no experience and sending the out for entry level jobs on the ships. (Our Ordinary Seaman had just done ten years for mail fraud. Funny story actually.) This is another case of bean counters not counting all the beans. They see how much money they can save, but not what it will cost when they need the ships and the ships are not there.
Accountants always act as if it's THEIR MONEY being used and are reluctant to say otherwise.
Were you part of the Invasion of Spain?
All the reserve ships broken out that just made it across the Atlantic and broke down near Rots Spain …..
@@Richard-od7ydAccountants do what they're told. It's the public who want free everything and somebody else to pay for it, and vote accordingly who you should look at.
The rot isn't in the soldiers, sailors, or ship builders. It's in the very fabric of the country and the people's desires for the good life at no cost to themselves.
@@josephpadula2283 Yes we broke down too. Singapore, Crete and Gibraltar. Gibraltar was as close as we got to Spain. Close enough to walk across the border.
@@ryanward10 yep, plenty of Americans think cooking and cleaning is immigrant work 😅
First thought after seeing the age of Army vessels: OH no, we're Canaduh!?! Remember after 9.11.01?
I remember it, but I don't see its relevance.
Yes. We remember. The US attacked Iraq. So…
We asked them to help us cover our East Coast. They were unable to help us out because of the condition of their submarine "fleet".
Spending max funds on "healthcare" seems to have led to a deficit spent on defense - but they've known we'd cover them.
Great job, thank you.
Thanks for a very detailed exposition on pre-positioning and US forces.
There´s no discussion? Then it´s pretty obvious. The cargo will go to Ukraine. That way, you don´t need the ships...
Before they make decisions like this "Better Ask Sal!"
Seriously! People should get shirts made and go to the Congressional hearings. Maybe the brass will notice then.
@@erinmac4750 Start a "Better Ask Sal" movement! Wake those people up, we are ill equipped to deal with a Far East conflict and making it worse is not going to help.
Hey up sal good video and making lots of sense thanks for your good work
Sal, Loved this video. I am an army veteran of the 3rd Infantry and participated in the Invasion of Iraq in 2003 the invasion was a success (despite all the bullshit that it brought about over the next two decades) because of the massive amount of firepower and boots on the ground we were able to put into place so quickly. I was part of the 2nd Brigade, we fell in on a brigade's worth of equipment that was prepositioned for us from a Kuwait-based stockpile in late September of 2002, 1st & 3rd Brigades came along in January and got supplied from the Floating and Qatar-based stockpiles. During our training and and stocking up for the invasion we weren't left wanting for anything it was all available and brand new. No amount of missiles and aerial bombing alone was going to win that war, as we are seeing in Ukraine today even with the addition of drones in the mix wars are still fought by soldiers and equipment on the ground going that last mile to take that patch of dirt. Why the Army and Marines are turning their back on this program is absolutely beyond me. I feel like it's probably because there is some high-tech pet project costing tens of billions being forced down the throat of the Pentagon (looking at you Littoral Combat Ships) robbing useful funding.
"Si vis pacem, para bellum" - If you would have peace, prepare for war." History has been forgotten yet again, apparently also by the war fighters.
We are so screwed if (when) conflict breaks out with China.
They’ve already hollowed us out economically. But my goodness - the cheap retail prices American consumers demanded came true. At a cost
@@mosessupposes2571 consumers never "demanded" cheap consumer goods, the _merchants_ saw it as an opportunity to destroy the country's industries while milking Americans to the last cent with shitty cheap stuff with higher margins. 🙄
@@kittytrail If no one in the US bought the Chinese products, but continued buying only American made goods, that demand would never have been created. Supply and demand is an economic reality. American consumers chose, and now want to blame someone else for this precarious position we’re in.
@@mosessupposes2571 outsource, offshore, cheapen, make less durable stuff, buy ads, rinse, repeat 'til the herd is pennyless and the country turns into a third world one. sure, it's the consumers that were greedy... 🙄
Hmmmm. No money in it for retired Generals/ (ahem) consultants?
Two points: 1. the US Army appears to be stepping away from brigade combat teams which obviously impacts the notion of having a brigade's worth of equipment on a ship. 2. Diego Garcia may not be tenable in the future as Great Britain is in the process of losing custody of it.
Appreciate the content