some accurate insight here on state of bike industry. Ive done several standard power BBS02 conversions. Love them. I did not save money, but got an end result that was a better fit, lighter weight and better performance that I can work on. The bike industry, with their move toward complexity and incompatibility is getting what they deserve. Bikes should be simple, easy to work on and not try to compete with motorcycles or cars. I hope there continues to be a thriving DIY market and community and Bafang stays in it.
@@TerryHope They definitely do, but as a consumer, if I could get a mid drive motor with a torque sensor in it I would take a torque sensor over a candence sensor build 100% of the time.
I am not worried now when TSDZ8 is on the market. I did 1000 km with it till now, mostly off road. Software is not there yet, but it will be. Build quality is really good.
Yeah. One door closes another opens. My only reservation is that the owners are a bit on the cheap side in terms of development. The flaws in the original motor primarily stemming from that.
Congratulations friend so much hard work to reach 10,000K is just a number I know. but it's a great achievement And anyway it's nice. A big hug to your family. I read about the fires I hope you're all okay. But as I had read it was 400 km from you.
Your evaluation of Bafang and the M635 makes perfect sense. Especially from a Bafang bean counter standpoint. Sad from a consumer standpoint, but it is what it is... And from a 'right to repair' standpoint. An ebike kit from Grin Technology with a hub motor. Is probably the best bet. Plus the hub motors that they're developing for disc brake regen applications look promising. I just don't see mid drives being supported and developed in the same way at this point. IMHO Thanks for your contribution to the ebike market and keep up the good work.
I have a thought. But first, as always. well explained and thanks for sharing this nugget with fellow ebike DIY'ers who have a penchant for mid drive and Bafang in particular. My thought is, Bafang is guilty of overreach. A failure of greed and misevaluating demand based upon their overreach. Their overreach is CANBUS, something DIY'ers disdain on Bosch and Yamaha and other production ebikes sold at bike shops at a high price. Everybody knows CANBUS exists for one reason and you touched upon it. No right to repair. Preservation of proprietary interface including chipped battery that makes it impossible to pair with a generic battery, or typically. Why did Bafang introduce CANBUS? For battery pairing of course and sell more batteries with its awful form factor, a second marketing mistake. Public wasn't buying as it really goes against the grain of a DIY'er mentality. Now a few companies and perhaps yours as well proved that the M635 could be paired with a non-CANBUS generic battery. But builders were uncertain of this reality and unsure for example how much torque sensing calibration would be lost by pairing with a generic battery without the CANBUS plug that pairs with M635 harness/controller. It was likely this overreach that killed demand for the M635 right out of the gate. Add to that even more evolved consumers knowing that torque sensing isn't a panacea or a must have by any means. Some prefer cadence sensing. I for example am fine with cadence sensing and many that have played with torque sensing know they tend to be less reliable than cadence sensing with more 'fiddly' calibration. Last ingredient I believe is, preliminary reviews of the M635 were less than favorable...crude torque sensing calibration that was deemed unrefined. Johnnynerdout wasn't a fan and he was trying to get through to Bafang to figure out how to calibrate the M635 better. So first impressions weren't favorable about the M635 to put it mildly. Anyway, that is my take. There may be more to it. Lack of demand and if you consider one more thing, what is the most reliable, robust mid drive motor on the market? I would suggest its the Bafang BBSHD. Who would have thunk that a Chinese company would produce such a brilliant, robust motor that is way overbuilt for max stock ampere of 30 amps and can take much more voltage and amps than that and keep ticking? Contrast that with the German company CYC which can't even keep their motors together. BBSHD parts are ubiquitous at a fair price and the motor is easy to rebuild. So maybe, Bafang is a victim of their own success. I have bought two BBSHD motors from Bafang and haven't needed any replacement parts. They just run perfectly which is such a blessing.
@@lukewalker1051 thanks for this Luke. I think it’s a good take on things. I feel they definitely dropped the ball. This should have been done 3 years ago by Bafang. The CANBUS 625 and battery issue was not well received. It undoubtedly hurt demand as you say. We will have to see how things develop. I have a few things on the boil so should be an interesting year. Appreciate your support greatly. Cheers
It's not just that they didn't promote it, they took positive steps to make sure people didn't hear about it. Less than a year ago I became interested in ebike conversions, and sent Bafang an email asking if they had a torque sensing motor or plans to make one; the reply denied that they had one and denied any plans to ever make one! It's crazy to not take every opportunity to sell what you've already produced.
I think you just nailed it. I was reading that there are films cancelled that are fully made which otherwise would have gone to the box office and they are just being written off. Cause a tax break on the loss and not having to spend the money promoting and distributing is more than they would make from the films profits. I wonder if this is the same calculation. I dunno. Made me think of it though.
my guess is that the m635 and m435 were far better than their frame integrated motors, yet look less slick. the smoothness if the gearbox is unparalleled, the torque sensor, at least after some tweaking with BESST, awesome. Comparing them to their integrated counterparts (m560 and ultra), they shed heat better and are ultra quiet. I was told from the dealer that they discontinued production for market placement reasons. I would not exclude the possibility that the reason these motors were discontinued due to potential internal competition, putting the ultra and m560 in the shadow
I can't say the same LOL. It was fun to try but I doubt I would do another CYC. Its just not the direction I want to take personally now. Those olins forks are great tho! Cheers
@@HighVoltageKitsWhich motor would you go for? I was ready to buy a CYC motor but after seeing your videos on not being able to service the motor yourself without have to take the thing off the bike, it has really put me off.
For me personally, a BBSHD style motor with a decent torque sensor would be a game changer. I'm always so torn between riding my Turbo Levo with the excellent torque sensor, or my BBSHD'd fatbike for the power and top speed. When someone finally comes out with a torque sensor motor that has BBSHD oomph to it, for me it will be a game changer. I guess what I'm trying to say is that a motor like that feels to me like it would reinvigorate the DIY market.
@@wrosslandwr8032 I guess I need to look into that. Is it one that needs a special receiver welded into the crank area of the frame? Or is it one that has a proprietary battery that HAS TO be used?
so i just purchased a mongoose fat tire bike, im a heavy rider, I was planning on BBSHD. what would you suggest as a good alternative? I know you had some concerns with DM01, too, but that might have to be my backup plan.
Just looking over used Ebike prices on facebook market place here in San Antonio the price have not dropped at all. I know Texas is weird and I am sort of sorry I bought a house here but I have to live with it.
I think you hit the nail on the head. Taking myself as an example, I was looking to convert some commuter bike and an MTB with mid motors. I wanted torque sensor so initially my choice was for Tongsheng due to good parts availability and good hackability. Then my plan was to upgrade to more powerful motors when they get released. But because of heavy discounts on the second hand market I ended up with a Bosch based commuter bike and a Bafang m510 based MTB. I still have tsdz2 based project bike but don't use it.
Motor Bafang M615 = BBSHD, M625 = The one that came in a package with the battery, 635 with torque sensor. It's a shame when they cancel. But Bafang has at least DIY motors, Bosch has none.
It's honestly because these mid drive motors aren't very popular they are used on bikes limited to 15 miles per hour, and people just want speed its pretty simple i mean look at the car industry faster and faster they go every year.
Really a shame some really nice Ebike Kits are the Eroy Arc Hero & Arc Nemesis which is no longer in business at this time but will hopefully start back up and the CirKit1 & 2 Ebike frames which are not bad looking kits but nothing as unique as what EROYbikes offered! I wouldn't mind putting a cotton Mouth motor on either one of those kits.
Bafang made a name for themself by making arguably the best DIY kits. So I guess this is the classic tale of a company where leadership decide they are not able to grow by some margin year over year in the market they operate in, so they end up abandoning the very thing that made them in the first place. But they are still considered relatively small and unknown outside of the DIY marked. By that I mean that if I was going to spend the big $$$$ on a quality commercial turnkey e-bike, I would pick Shimano or Bosh any day of the week over Bafang stuff. .
its a walled garden strategy that's all, companies have bigger profit margins if they make things more proprietary and keep on updating their designs and adding useless features for the likes of advertisement, bbshd is the opposite of this concept, a robust design unchanged for 10+ years and its why its barely even listed in bafangs own website even though they still produce it en masse to this day, I honestly believe bafang never even made significant profits from those original mid-drives and it was all just a loss leader so they can gain Investment and launch their proprietary battery and unified ecosystem with displays and whatnots. Its no mystery what happens, motor companies just slowly become component vendors like shimano, they keep reinventing the wheel and they do stuff like adding another cog to their groupsets none asked for and its all because bike companies force them to do new stuff they can use it as advertisement when selling to consumers, much like when laptop companies brag about having the new version of windows or whatever. its the "kill old stock sell new stuff" consumerism mentality that needs to be called out on sight, Not even bosch can keep up with all the different generations and versions of motors it has and if your motor breaks you wont find any spare parts and bosch it self wont have any spare parts stocked to fix it with, i honestly wouldn't be surprised if bafang suddenly stopped producing bbs midrives altogether and we just enter a dark age of diy.
Why do you think that demand for e-bikes has dropped? I would like to see a 500 watt mid-drive Brompton T-Line, but that would require concerted effort by Brompton and they aren't motivated to improve their own ebikes.
some accurate insight here on state of bike industry. Ive done several standard power BBS02 conversions. Love them. I did not save money, but got an end result that was a better fit, lighter weight and better performance that I can work on. The bike industry, with their move toward complexity and incompatibility is getting what they deserve. Bikes should be simple, easy to work on and not try to compete with motorcycles or cars. I hope there continues to be a thriving DIY market and community and Bafang stays in it.
Thanks. The bike industry gambled on a few things that have not come to pass.
The lack of Right to Repair has become a new cash cow for almost all major manufacturers which needs to be changed immediately.
I feel worried for you, please don't commit suicide.
That’s not on the cards. Thanks for your concern though :)
Babylon is falling don't worry
I honestly think that the ToSeven DM01 was gonna put the BBSHD out of business anyways. It was smart of Bafang to cut their losses.
It’s a good motor. They definitely have an opportunity to take the lead here.
they still have the 600
@@TerryHope They definitely do, but as a consumer, if I could get a mid drive motor with a torque sensor in it I would take a torque sensor over a candence sensor build 100% of the time.
Interesting and informative video. Thanks 👍
I am not worried now when TSDZ8 is on the market. I did 1000 km with it till now, mostly off road. Software is not there yet, but it will be. Build quality is really good.
I saw on Tongsheng Facebook group some preliminary drawings of even more powerful motor than tsdz8. Time will show if they release it.
Yeah. One door closes another opens. My only reservation is that the owners are a bit on the cheap side in terms of development. The flaws in the original motor primarily stemming from that.
Congratulations friend so much hard work to reach 10,000K is just a number I know. but it's a great achievement And anyway it's nice. A big hug to your family.
I read about the fires I hope you're all okay.
But as I had read it was 400 km from you.
Merci pour cette réflexion sur le marché des vélos électriques.
Your evaluation of Bafang and the M635 makes perfect sense. Especially from a Bafang bean counter standpoint. Sad from a consumer standpoint, but it is what it is...
And from a 'right to repair' standpoint. An ebike kit from Grin Technology with a hub motor. Is probably the best bet. Plus the hub motors that they're developing for disc brake regen applications look promising. I just don't see mid drives being supported and developed in the same way at this point. IMHO
Thanks for your contribution to the ebike market and keep up the good work.
Grin make great stuff always. Long may it continue.
@@HighVoltageKits back at you
I have a thought. But first, as always. well explained and thanks for sharing this nugget with fellow ebike DIY'ers who have a penchant for mid drive and Bafang in particular.
My thought is, Bafang is guilty of overreach. A failure of greed and misevaluating demand based upon their overreach. Their overreach is CANBUS, something DIY'ers disdain on Bosch and Yamaha and other production ebikes sold at bike shops at a high price.
Everybody knows CANBUS exists for one reason and you touched upon it. No right to repair. Preservation of proprietary interface including chipped battery that makes it impossible to pair with a generic battery, or typically.
Why did Bafang introduce CANBUS? For battery pairing of course and sell more batteries with its awful form factor, a second marketing mistake. Public wasn't buying as it really goes against the grain of a DIY'er mentality.
Now a few companies and perhaps yours as well proved that the M635 could be paired with a non-CANBUS generic battery. But builders were uncertain of this reality and unsure for example how much torque sensing calibration would be lost by pairing with a generic battery without the CANBUS plug that pairs with M635 harness/controller.
It was likely this overreach that killed demand for the M635 right out of the gate. Add to that even more evolved consumers knowing that torque sensing isn't a panacea or a must have by any means. Some prefer cadence sensing. I for example am fine with cadence sensing and many that have played with torque sensing know they tend to be less reliable than cadence sensing with more 'fiddly' calibration. Last ingredient I believe is, preliminary reviews of the M635 were less than favorable...crude torque sensing calibration that was deemed unrefined. Johnnynerdout wasn't a fan and he was trying to get through to Bafang to figure out how to calibrate the M635 better. So first impressions weren't favorable about the M635 to put it mildly.
Anyway, that is my take. There may be more to it. Lack of demand and if you consider one more thing, what is the most reliable, robust mid drive motor on the market? I would suggest its the Bafang BBSHD. Who would have thunk that a Chinese company would produce such a brilliant, robust motor that is way overbuilt for max stock ampere of 30 amps and can take much more voltage and amps than that and keep ticking? Contrast that with the German company CYC which can't even keep their motors together. BBSHD parts are ubiquitous at a fair price and the motor is easy to rebuild.
So maybe, Bafang is a victim of their own success. I have bought two BBSHD motors from Bafang and haven't needed any replacement parts. They just run perfectly which is such a blessing.
@@lukewalker1051 thanks for this Luke. I think it’s a good take on things. I feel they definitely dropped the ball. This should have been done 3 years ago by Bafang. The CANBUS 625 and battery issue was not well received. It undoubtedly hurt demand as you say. We will have to see how things develop. I have a few things on the boil so should be an interesting year. Appreciate your support greatly. Cheers
@@HighVoltageKits Great to hear. You do so much for the industry John. All the best in your pursuits. We will be the beneficiaries of your hard work.
It's not just that they didn't promote it, they took positive steps to make sure people didn't hear about it. Less than a year ago I became interested in ebike conversions, and sent Bafang an email asking if they had a torque sensing motor or plans to make one; the reply denied that they had one and denied any plans to ever make one! It's crazy to not take every opportunity to sell what you've already produced.
I think you just nailed it. I was reading that there are films cancelled that are fully made which otherwise would have gone to the box office and they are just being written off. Cause a tax break on the loss and not having to spend the money promoting and distributing is more than they would make from the films profits. I wonder if this is the same calculation. I dunno. Made me think of it though.
Bafang Ultra is a torque sensing system.
@@douglaskaye1395 There must be some reason why you completely missed the point of what I said. I have no reason what that reason might be.
my guess is that the m635 and m435 were far better than their frame integrated motors, yet look less slick. the smoothness if the gearbox is unparalleled, the torque sensor, at least after some tweaking with BESST, awesome. Comparing them to their integrated counterparts (m560 and ultra), they shed heat better and are ultra quiet. I was told from the dealer that they discontinued production for market placement reasons. I would not exclude the possibility that the reason these motors were discontinued due to potential internal competition, putting the ultra and m560 in the shadow
An intriguing though. It might be a factor in not splitting the sales over too many lines. Cheers
have you seen the 600 ?
@@TerryHope the M600?
I don't regret building my CYC/DIY mountain bike project at all. I want to build another one with Ohlins bits if budget would allow.
I can't say the same LOL. It was fun to try but I doubt I would do another CYC. Its just not the direction I want to take personally now. Those olins forks are great tho! Cheers
@@HighVoltageKitsWhich motor would you go for? I was ready to buy a CYC motor but after seeing your videos on not being able to service the motor yourself without have to take the thing off the bike, it has really put me off.
In my experience this is how 99% of ebike eiders actually are seen riding, well done
Thanks
For me personally, a BBSHD style motor with a decent torque sensor would be a game changer. I'm always so torn between riding my Turbo Levo with the excellent torque sensor, or my BBSHD'd fatbike for the power and top speed. When someone finally comes out with a torque sensor motor that has BBSHD oomph to it, for me it will be a game changer. I guess what I'm trying to say is that a motor like that feels to me like it would reinvigorate the DIY market.
TOSEVEN might get there one day! We will see. Cheers
@@HighVoltageKits That would be amazing! I hope so!!
imo this motor already exist.Bafang ultra
@@wrosslandwr8032 I guess I need to look into that. Is it one that needs a special receiver welded into the crank area of the frame? Or is it one that has a proprietary battery that HAS TO be used?
@@tptrsn Its usually reallybad programmed from the shop,but with uart controller and eggrider its easy to make this a fantastic motor.
Hello mate. How did you put the parameters overlay into video? Anyway I can not see even M625 on Bafang page. Only old M615 UART version. :(
It’s using race render.
@@HighVoltageKits And data getting from some VESC?
@dado304 it from an ASI bac855
@@HighVoltageKits Hmm, interesting. Thinking how it synchronize with video.
@dado304 you set it manually
I was trying to find one of these. I finally gave up and bought a bbshd. I’m quite happy but still have to wonder
so i just purchased a mongoose fat tire bike, im a heavy rider, I was planning on BBSHD. what would you suggest as a good alternative? I know you had some concerns with DM01, too, but that might have to be my backup plan.
Just looking over used Ebike prices on facebook market place here in San Antonio the price have not dropped at all. I know Texas is weird and I am sort of sorry I bought a house here but I have to live with it.
I think you hit the nail on the head. Taking myself as an example, I was looking to convert some commuter bike and an MTB with mid motors. I wanted torque sensor so initially my choice was for Tongsheng due to good parts availability and good hackability. Then my plan was to upgrade to more powerful motors when they get released. But because of heavy discounts on the second hand market I ended up with a Bosch based commuter bike and a Bafang m510 based MTB. I still have tsdz2 based project bike but don't use it.
Exactly. You get what you need for less stress and it didn’t used to be that.
Bafang ultra is a torque sensing system.
Motor Bafang M615 = BBSHD, M625 = The one that came in a package with the battery, 635 with torque sensor. It's a shame when they cancel. But Bafang has at least DIY motors, Bosch has none.
Very true and I doubt bosh will ever! Cheers
And I can not see M625 on a motor product page. So they have removed CAN HD motor completely?
It's honestly because these mid drive motors aren't very popular they are used on bikes limited to 15 miles per hour, and people just want speed its pretty simple i mean look at the car industry faster and faster they go every year.
mid-drives could have the highest rolling efficiency... but I see fat tire e-bikes all over with half inflated tires.. people//
Really a shame some really nice Ebike Kits are the Eroy Arc Hero & Arc Nemesis which is no longer in business at this time but will hopefully start back up and the CirKit1 & 2 Ebike frames which are not bad looking kits but nothing as unique as what EROYbikes offered! I wouldn't mind putting a cotton Mouth motor on either one of those kits.
Yeah! The Cotton Mouth drive is amazing.
Bafang made a name for themself by making arguably the best DIY kits. So I guess this is the classic tale of a company where leadership decide they are not able to grow by some margin year over year in the market they operate in, so they end up abandoning the very thing that made them in the first place.
But they are still considered relatively small and unknown outside of the DIY marked. By that I mean that if I was going to spend the big $$$$ on a quality commercial turnkey e-bike, I would pick Shimano or Bosh any day of the week over Bafang stuff. .
its a walled garden strategy that's all, companies have bigger profit margins if they make things more proprietary and keep on updating their designs and adding useless features for the likes of advertisement, bbshd is the opposite of this concept, a robust design unchanged for 10+ years and its why its barely even listed in bafangs own website even though they still produce it en masse to this day, I honestly believe bafang never even made significant profits from those original mid-drives and it was all just a loss leader so they can gain Investment and launch their proprietary battery and unified ecosystem with displays and whatnots.
Its no mystery what happens, motor companies just slowly become component vendors like shimano, they keep reinventing the wheel and they do stuff like adding another cog to their groupsets none asked for and its all because bike companies force them to do new stuff they can use it as advertisement when selling to consumers, much like when laptop companies brag about having the new version of windows or whatever.
its the "kill old stock sell new stuff" consumerism mentality that needs to be called out on sight, Not even bosch can keep up with all the different generations and versions of motors it has and if your motor breaks you wont find any spare parts and bosch it self wont have any spare parts stocked to fix it with, i honestly wouldn't be surprised if bafang suddenly stopped producing bbs midrives altogether and we just enter a dark age of diy.
Why do you think that demand for e-bikes has dropped? I would like to see a 500 watt mid-drive Brompton T-Line, but that would require concerted effort by Brompton and they aren't motivated to improve their own ebikes.
Because they’re just so much more expensive than a non e-bike with equivalent specs, well that was my experience anyway.
Bafang M600 SMOKES Bosch CX & Shimano EP801 - video
My long story short: In part I understand them (business, money), but at the same time it makes me really sad and a bit angry.
Yeah it's sad. Feels like they are abandoning what made them great for money.
Can I still find this motor for sale?
There is some stock. I think golden motor has some. Maybe Jonny Nerdout
I absolutely ADORE my chinese-made fat-tire ebike. And yup, it was cheap as chips. Blame capitalism.