maybe it’s just me, but Scott getting rid of his poster of two women kissing when he moves in with Ramona shows him moving past that simple fetishized view of lesbians
no I agree, part of why I like that arc is because he does "grow". he fully realizes that he loves ramona and "moves on" from his issues with the roxie situation. I used a panel from it mainly because I needed footage, and it was one of the few gay related frames that I hadn't used yet
Not meaning to discount this opinion in any way, just to give some additional context to the poster, since I get the impression the audience for this channel is a bit younger than me (I was the age the characters were when it takes place). That poster was a STAPLE in basically every guys dorm room. It was a cliche to own it, it was so popular. It very much cements it in a very specific time frame, and the general attitude of the era. So outside of fetishizing lesbians, it does a good chunk of world building for those old enough to have been there. Also just some general info about the poster, it's called The Kiss, by Tanya Chalkin. It was commissioned by Henrietta Morrison, co-founder of "queercompany", in response to the gay magazine Gay Times having mostly male porn and sex content, and she wanted an image that would "stand for something". A close friend of Tanya (who's unfortunately passed on), had this to say about her motivations for doing the picture: "Everything had to be perfect and she was never prepared to compromise on that. She was trying to create something that was sensual but classy. I don’t think she ever thought she was going to be changing the world but she always had this gut reaction and instinct as to what would work and what would look beautiful.”
@@puppetpawssyeah I mean the whole time him Wallace were roommates they always shared the same bed. I don't believe for a second that Wallace wouldn't have tried to make a move at least once or at the very least talk to Scott about it.
I always viewed Kim kissing Knives in the comics as very out of character for Kim. She seemed to be disgusted when Scott started dating Knives, not because she was a bitter exe but because Knives was underage and Kim knew that Scott was using Knives. I know that Kim and Knives were both drunk but in that situation Kim was taking advantage of Knives while she was drunk. I just hate how all the stuff Knives suffers through is played for jokes. She’s one of my characters and it sucks to see how she gets treated.
Yeah when I saw that scene it kinda felt like Knives had been groomed into it and I felt very weird about it. As a queer person Kim and knives are my favorites and generally I'd be extremely happy w my faves been queer but that scene always made me feel very weird
Yeah that scene always just felt like unnecessary shock value to me since it never got brought up ever again... But at least them never bringing it up ever again also helps make it easier to ignore it and just pretend it never happened while rereading the comics... But then the fucking video game happened with the ending where they end up together + special kissing animation of them and some of the other stuff they did with her in that game 💀
Knives shouldn’t have ended with anyone tbh. She was much too young and she was largely viewed as an annoyance by the other characters. Never made much sense for her to be with Kim in my opinion. If Kim was going to be with anyone, have it be one of Ramona’s Ex’s tbh. Would’ve fit, with her receiving closure at the time that they do.
@@Doomzdeh wait I read the comics a while ago but didn't knives end up with young Neil or something. Which low-key made sense. The Kim thing was a weird one off
I did not expect to be so thrilled by the jam scene between Knives and Kim. To replace a dirty distasteful joke by this heartfelt wholesome moment was so unexpected, and it might be the perfect choice.
As a queer woman, I feel like the way we're portrayed in media in general is just kind of blegh. It's very male-gaze-y. People tend to often talk about how it's more "okay" to show women kissing over men kissing and of course it is, when the whole deal about it is it being more about the ones viewing it than the women who kiss.
@@kimbeeely Yes, especially when the "more okay" is for the wrong reasons, because people think it's 'hot to watch' and the concept of queer women is degraded to sex object.
@mirandazhang1359are you talking about the kiss between Todd and Wallace or something else? I found it kinda gross ngl edit: nvm I didn't watch the entire video, soz
@mirandazhang1359To me the sparks seem more like basically a magic vibe check, so it's less not taking them seriously, and more like a "Yeah, not the right person for eachother." Like, Wallace probably kissed hundreds of guys and never saw sparks until right at the end, and Scott and Ramona seemed surprised at the sparks their first time, so it's reasonable to assume they didn't have the sparks with any of their exes.
I've noticed that, as you said, kisses between women is acceptable because "awooga lesbians that would totally date a man", but I've also seen some media where guys kissing is better because of some weirdly homo erotic misogyny? Like either way, both identities aren't exactly being validated and women are being objectified in both scenarios. Somewhat unrelated, but it reminds me of how 'interracial' and same race relationships in media come off to me. Like sometimes I see media that has a lot of interracial relationships, beyond just white person and black person, but when every relationship is just that it feels fetishy depending on the content and avoidant of poc being with other POC. But when I see media of black characters only being with black characters and chinese characters only being with chinese characters and so on, while it definitely can be positive like with black love and joy, sometimes it sends the message that people of different ethnicities shouldn't be in relationships. Both have positive aspects for sure, but when one "dynamic" is shown more often all the negatives become more visible to a POC like me. I dunno. I feel like it isn't hard to have characters in love that are both the same race and different races, without being just one or the other. I know everyone has subconscious biases they can't easily get rid of or even acknowledge without external aid, but the ""pureness"" of same race relationships and the "savior complex/fetishization" of interracial relationships just makes me uncomfortable. As a POC you can't date whoever you're interested in without wondering if there's an underlying reason for it (at least in the good ol USA), or how others will perceive your relationships. Just dehumanization across the board, whether in terms of race/ethnicity, gender, and definitely disability.
I think it could've been included in a different way, like Scott saying "you were BI-CURIOUS?", in which Ramona corrects Scott after the Bi-furious line.
One thing that still really bugs me as a brown dude is now nobody talks about the fetishization of Mathew Pattel's ethnicity. He’s one of the only characters of colour in the entire series, and he's singled out by Ramona as only being dated because he is brown and has mystical powers. As much as I love the news series making him basically a main character, he's still not really given the same treatment as the other exes. His frustration with being used as a tool is still kinda a joke. I can personally relate to Matt, I've definitely had women hit on me because I'm a brown dude. They hated white men so much that they somehow thought dating a minority would be different. It sucks, in a uniquely racist way for Ramona. When I was younger I didn't notice because I saw myself alot more in Scott, but man. I've been there Matt. I've had alt girls fetishize my race and treat me like a novelty rather than a person. It honestly makes it really hard for me to like any literation about Ramona. I'm also bi, so seeing how Roxy was treated in the show was a nice change because that was another uniquely discriminatory and awful way she treated someone. Oh well, at least he got to star in the musical.
I agree and I think if he wasn’t a walking stereotype it would’ve helped show what they were trying to show, which is that Ramona only dated him because she fetishized him and she’s a bad person But when he shows up and is exactly as she described, it ruins the joke because it then becomes that the media is doing the very thing it’s trying to critique And it’s racist
Yeah, just the fact he has "mystical powers" is really off putting as time goes on. It was a big thing I thought has been generally badly handled in all of the series different forms
I think it was done purposefully to show Ramona’s flaws, Matthew Patel is obviously shown to be in a completely different league from the other exes, they’re all rich, famous and that while he is just a theatre kid, the only reason Ramona dated him is because she wanted to be rebellious and turn down all the jocks for the kid who was different. Send wasn’t attracted to him because he is Indian, she probably wasn’t into him at all, she just wanted to rebel against the norm (hot girl dates white jock) and I think that’s clear from the fact they only dated for like 2 weeks before she moved on, showing there were no serious feelings.
I remember saying to myself while watching takes off “wouldn’t it be so funny if Todd and Wallace had a toxic situationship” and then lost my shit when it happened five seconds later
so the real takeaway here is that wallace is a perfect babygirl angel that has never done anything wrong, actually. no but absolutely love this video because scott pilgrim was also a very prominent part of my teenage years and having been a fan of the comic/movie/video game, and being queer, it was so fulfilling to see the anime approach its queer characters with such a smart and fun openness to how they’re written!
I know people hate wallace for turning down todd in the new show but I kinda love it? He's kinda an asshole and its interesting cause a lot of media featuring queer media put them as these perfect angels making them super bland. But wallace has sm personality. Also I kinda saw wallace rejecting Todd as an inverse of the trope where the straight guy tricks the gay guy to make fun of him? I dunno but I like wallace
One of the underdiscussed aspects of Knives and Kim making out, I think, is that despite it "never being spoken of again" it's actually an enormous looming presence all throughout volume four. Because the fact that girls can make out with each other threatens Scott IMMENSELY. He immediately starts obsessing about it, and he specifically starts obsessing about it in the context of "Ramona could leave me for a woman. Why wouldn't she? Women are awesome and I sort of suck." Even more specifically, he's threatened by Kim; spazzing out when Kim jokes about Ramona dumping him; "And what, marry YOU?" Ramona spends volumes two through five very... interested... in Kim. The narrative goes out of its way to mention this over and over, culminating in Ramona LITERALLY propositioning her for a threesome. Scott doesn't go into that tailspin without seeing Kim kiss another girl. It maybe shouldn't have been Knives (although I think there's a discussion to be had there) and Knives' own queerness needs more discussing in general, I think, but it at least has a narrative point. (Sidebar: the color versions of the GN's include a lot of BLOM's notes to himself in the back, included as extras. If you look in the back of volume five, you'll find where he wrote a note to himself "Scott + Ramona + Kim! Why not!" That might have been an interesting direction to go.) I think I want to disagree a little about Kim and Roxie kissing each other being a joke? Like... episode three is sort of Kim's episode, to the extent Kim gets one. (Kim keeps getting shafted in terms of screen time and development in various adaptations.) And I'm going to lay down a marker; Kim doesn't kiss Roxie if that duet with Knives doesn't happen. That's an emotionally charged moment for Kim; she forms a connection with someone that's so instantly strong and powerful she openly weeps, which is not something a character typically defined by being sullen and slightly mean normally does. Without that minute and a half with Knives opening Kim to the possibility of emotional intimacy with others, specifically other girls, I don't think she opens up to Ramona to the extent she does, and I don't think she decides "Oh. Huh. A girl would like to kiss me. Hmm! I... -could- kiss a girl. Okay then."
tbh I hadn't thought of Kim and Roxie kissing in that way before, and I think that's a cool way to think about it. I think viewing it as a form of opening up that leads to Kim's progress as a person is interesting, and that further "contextualizes" some of her later actions
An important part of the scene with Kim and Roxy imo is that while it is played for a joke, the joke isn't the "women kissing" part, it's the "Eh, no sparks" "Worth a shot!" exchange after and just the general interaction between their personalities.
@@eaglest0554 Oh, yes, that's absolutely played for comedy. Especially Roxie's leglock of Kim, which is incredibly hilarious. But it is, as you say, not funny in a "ha ha girls making out" sense, but in a "subverts expectations" sense; you would expect such a lushly animated kiss, complete with spit trail, to be highly significant, and the humor comes from "nah, Roxie offered, Kim accepted, it was okay, but not really special." That's funny, and in an oddly wholesome way!
Ha, yeah I can see Scott's fallacy. I do think that mindset is reasonable from an evolutionary standpoint, even if it is a bit unfortunate (and potentially dangerous) in a civilization so far removed from base nature. Remember this: the animal inside you is not your foe, it is simply trying to keep you alive and ensure that you have kids. It is a tool for survival as an individual and as a species, completely suppressing it or letting it have complete control is inviting disaster. Me, specifically my still unfinished book.
I always Hated the movie for turning oroxi into a sexulized girl as well as having the sex joke with Scott erasing roxi being a lesbian. Bi women are treated as straight and lesbians are treated as bi
I love Kim and Ramona. The idea that a bipolar or bipolar coded character can be accepted and even loved by someone who has a long history of breaking up over tiny things is so beautiful to me. Also I am both bipolar and bisexual, so Kim is already my favorite.
Personally I like how the comic handles bi-exploration, the way they hint at Scott and Wallace have a gay meeting experience, the way Kim keeps experimenting with her sexuality, the way they show that sexuality can change and isn’t permanent, and I love Wallace in the comments sooo much. The movie is a bit worse, Wallace is more of just an overly gay joke than a full character (tho is still great) and Roxie is handled poorly. In the new Netflix series, I love Wallace even more, and I love how they handle Roxie in that, with much more development and showing Roxie’s side, I also loved when Wallace turned Todd gay, that was well written and funny, it also shows Wallace’s crush on Scott which is shown more in the comics, Wallace makes multiple remarks about Scott being hot and I think in the comics even says he only lets him live with him because he is hot, so it was interesting seeing Wallace in a gay romance with Todd dressed as Scott
In real life sexuality is a permanent thing tho. I've never ever met anyone in my life that came out and "changed their sexuality", all of them were always this way, only hiding it from themselves and the world. As a gay man, the idea that sexuality can change gives me the creeps, because I always liked boys, only boys, and that will never change in my life. Believing that sexuality can change is a very harmful idea that contributes with the perception that conversion therapy has real results. It has not.
@@nothinginteresting7558 it’s not harmful, I’ve known many people who have confidently said that they were straight then a couple years later came out as bi or gay, and I’ve seen the opposite where people convinced they were gay then went back to being straight a few years later. Maybe it’s wrong to say sexuality can change, but your idea of your sexuality can change, you may not realise you are gay and then years later come out, or you think your gay but years later after actually trying to date a guy realise that its not for you. But I do believe sexuality can change, after all it is just your sexual preference and whether you prefer men or women can change. Just like how people who are bi may have a preference to men or women and this preference can change (so they may go from preferring men to preferring women), people who are straight or gay can change their mind, your preference isn’t a permanent thing. Ofc for many it doesn’t change and it’s unclear whether your sexuality actually changes or if you just realise something you didn’t before, but for all practical purposes that is the same as changing your sexuality because you went from saying “I like women” to saying “I like men”
Something I am REALLY mad abt is Knives x Kim, I have seen people ship them but hate on Scott x Knives. BOTH ARE A PRODLEMTIC, HATE BOTH, IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE, DONT SHIP ADULTS WITH MINORS, ITS BAD ITS EW STOP IT STOP ITTTT Anyways, other then that short rant i really enjoyed watching this vid! The part that i enjoyed the most in Scott Pilgrim takes off might be ep 4, or the whole arc of Roxie and Ramona. It made me cry so hard so many times and I fucking love it. Great vid!!!!
Bad things shouldn't exist in fiction? Futhermore while it is bad, legally they are not minors in the context of sex in the setting as Canada's age of consent is weirdly 16. In the context of drinking, minor is under 19.
@@Luxembourgish The issue isn't necessarily that bad things should not be depicted in fiction -- Knives' relationship with Scott was a good depiction of a bad thing. Scott was pretty much just using her for emotional satisfaction, and as someone who hasn't had the opportunity to go to college and live life and fail like everyone else, Knives had no way of knowing how unhealthy that was. The issue comes with how Kim and Knives in the comic wasn't treated by the story with the same level of harshness, despite the fact that Kim is about the same age as Scott and herself criticized Scott for his behavior. Contrast with Takes Off, where the scene showing Kim and Knives relating is far more platonic and clearly about both of them finding self-expression through music, and doesn't clash with the previously stated issues the story brings up with Scott's behavior.
@@Luxembourgisha 17 year old is a kid compared to an actual adult. Let's not try to argue "but so and so isn't a minor because of this very specific reason". Nope. Knives is a minor, and she is getting exploited and used by the adults around her in the series. In fact, that's the whole point of her arc. Bad things can exist in fiction as long as they are called out as bad.
Tbh, I hardcore side eye Bryan O’Malley for never really doing anything about Knives being groomed and essentially assaulted by these adult characters (among other sexist writing choices). Even though Knives’ age is pointed out in passing, the adult characters who took advantage of her are never held accountable and we’re ultimately meant to see them as messy but well meaning characters while Knives is just a part of their “flaws”.
Knives is the most accurate portrayal of a minor that has dated older people I’ve ever seen. Also, Scott is a piece of shit but he wasn’t grooming Knives. He was dating her so he could convince himself he moved on from Envy. Bryan Lee O Malley never intended to make Knives a happy character. Knives is a realistic portrayal of the importance of age difference and not a redemption story for Scott. STILL CREEPY THOUGH.
@@urenbywife2007 even if it's a realistic portrayal in the sense nothing is done about it, it also comes off as justifying adults dating and making moves on a minor. Even you saying Scott wasn't grooming Knives is part of the problem on why the comic should've addressed it, especially when a lot of the readers were/are teens. He dated her knowing she was 17, there's literally no excuses for it.
@@sapphic.flower sorry, i don´t see how the series justify adults making moves on a minor. I think all of the medium made pretty clear that Scoot dating a minor wasn´t cool, and he was being, allthought lightly, being judged by his friends and family about it. I think its a pretty decent look on this kind of bad relationship that happens quite a lot irl, and a minor reading could see themselves on knifes and notice she was a bit too obsesed too. Could you elaborate on how it justifys grooming?
This was an amazing analysis! I’m currently writing an essay on queer rep in Scott Pilgrim, and I’d love to use this video as a source, especially in discussions about Roxie since I think you absolutely hit it out of the park. Great work all around!
As much as earlier scott pilgrim media had its errors it meant a lot to me at the time and seeing Takes Off really improve on what was there in the original. I really hope if we get more Scott Pilgrim it continues at this level of quality. Thanks for making this 💜
I can't remember where I've seen it but i read that one of the people involved in the show talked about Wallace's behaviour in the movie episode was his way of coping with Scott's death, and that being why Wallace only liked him when he was wearing Scott's costume
Slight problem: stephen didnt become gay lol. Saying he “isnt gay in the beginning” implies that his sexuality changed. It didnt. He realized he was gay later on, but he was in the closet before that. Its not uncommon for closeted people to be in straight relationships, and it doesnt change their sexuality. Maybe it was just a poor choice of words (maybe you meant he isnt shown as gay in the beginning) but still, word choice is important.
I mean, I think sexuality is more complex than that. Both can happen. Some folks are closeted and realise they're gay later. Some folks find that their sexulity changes over time. So it could be either. Stephen could be exclusively homo or could be bi, some folks use 'gay' to mean either. The idea of fluid orientation doesn't go against anyone's validity at all! So I like the idea that he's changed over time, cos I did too. It's rad.
This was a really great discussion of the queer topics of the series with a shift in your humor compared to the past, great editing and the classic KimBee awesome writing. Great video, just for that you can get Pilotwings in 2025!
kim, this is the first video of yours i've seen, and it's great. you seamlessly integrated the progression of scott pilgrim over the years, your own experiences, and queer representation throughout each piece of media, in a way that left me emotionally engaged. i'm so excited to see what else you plan on creating moving forward
Prolly one of your better videos honestly, even if its not like, super in depth or emotional. Ya don't always need that to make something enjoyable. I think the topic was explored well enough to where it carries the video on its own. But, your writing/humor added to it a lot. You spoke about this stuff with confidence while keeping the tone casual and easy to digest.
Thank you my buddy Ian. I think for me, the most challenging part was definitely trying to inject my own personal "style" into this video, because I didn't want to have it be a "dry" video. While watching my old videos, I definitely noticed that they're a little "dry" sometimes (though that's not as much of an issue for later ones), and I wanted to step it up a little for this video. Casualness was definitely another big one just because tbh, I didn't want to make something overly serious lmao
@@kimbeeely give me a damn suggestion on the rest of my campaign like im playing on a ps3 my favoriye nfs games so might aswell fill the blank in with the rest of scott pilgrimage...
I fucking love the fact that the music playing in the background of the Roxy and Ramona backstory in Takes Off is titled “And They Were Roommates” on the soundtrack
Seeing snippets as you were editing already had me excited but watching the full product on the tv was worth it. Most out of pocket video you’ve done, it feels so in line with how we talk but damn if it’s still not insightful and has your voice. Be proud of this video, fuckin amazing comeback and I couldn’t a prouder sibling
I always read the Kim/Knives kiss as a moment to point out Kim's flaws too - pretty much every other character wears their flaws on their sleeves, but Kim seems to have the moral high ground all the time. Making Kim a hypocrite for criticising Scott for dating Knives and then making out with her gives her a flaw that her character otherwise doesn't really have.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who was really wowed by the show's reinterpretations of so many characters! Roxie always deserved better and she finally got it. Great video!
9 months late but i really loved this! i haven't ever really thought about the queer implications of scott pilgrim up until SPTO (but even in that case, queerness was handled much better and clearer in that than any other scott pilgrim media,) mostly because im cis-het and only really thought about the story through scotts perspective, not only because its the main one we follow but because its the one i relate to the most. SPTO really opened my eyes retroactively but this video really tore them open for me. i love getting to hear queer (or any other marginalized community for that matter,) takes on franchises i love because it usually recontexualizes things for me in a way i could never achieve or understand on my own, so thank you!
See I love the Roxie x Kim kiss in this because it is not a "Oh she's not gay joke", it's a they just aren't into each other joke. Kim is shown to be at least interested in women in the comics, I think the joke works so well because it's never framed as her seeing if she's gay. And while I think the way Knives is treated as a character is actually awful, I also do like her overall growth from a sheltered girl to a more confident young adult. At no point do they go over the top with it and it probably could have been handled a lot better, it was also obviously based on the experience of hanging out with adults and how weird and confusing it can be.
I love that he made Stephen turned out to be a gay dude. But what I hate is that they explicitly say that he's gay, and people try to make him Bi because he dated Julie. Gay guys could have dated girls in the past before they realized who they were, people!!!
As a gay man, that’s how queerness in media should work. It doesn’t need to always be in the spotlight nor shoved out of the way. Not everything needs to be queer, but not everything needs to be straight, an ok amount of both is good enough.
The Scott Pilgrim comics are about a straight guy navigating the early 2000s as a grand fuckup. Its the plot that his fuckups need to Stop and not just stop, but be actively worked back so he can let the people in his life move forward from them, just like him. In that series, at that time of history, queerness is very ancillary and its a miracle it came out as well as it did. Wallace Wells is our self confident king who is very not traumatized and he deserves all the love he gets. In Vs. The World we get something put together by executives. These executives think that the Fuckup is Scott Fighting the evil exes in order to "Win" a partner, when there's a perfectly earnest person looking to Be his partner. Which is Fucking Stupud because she's 17 and that's Also a Fuckup. Both things are Not Good. But hey, they were already halfway through filming so lets just go all in on the "Fight 7 people to win a non-zero amount of confidence from the person who didn't say she would date you just because you fought those people". Wallace is still our untraumatized king but he's quite in a realm of his own giving out witty quips while the plot happens around him. Scott Pilgrim Takes off is both not About a straight guy and is written 20 years later with 20 years of analysis and hind sight to back it up. Its About Ramona, and her fuckups. Her fuck ups have to stop, and not just stop, be actively worked back so she can let the people in her life move forward from them, just like her. In this series, at this time, queerness is an integral part of Ramona's identity. Scott is Missing and Ramona is forced to realize that how she affects people was fairly toxic, and if she doesn't shape up too she will hurt Scott in a way that encourages him to regress. Overall, Scott Pilgrim Takes Off isn't About him. He Takes Off. Its about Ramona, and Ramona is a queer main character.
Looking back at the anime, I've only just realised that six of the 13ish (depends who you count) main characters are queer (Being Roxie, Ramona, Todd, Kim, Stephen and Wallace), and that isn't including the characters who could very easily be queer (The other five exes all have varying degrees of likelihood to be queer, Knives is likely queer, etc). That is almost a majority!
Hey everyone, KimBee (formally FuseFall) here! I just wanted to give a big thank you to everyone who helped with this video! Shoutout to Rowe Reviews who provided script feedback, the thumbnail, and intro, and also PacJeff who watched the video before release to help make sure that there were no editing errors!. Shoutouts also go to rose.mov and Amiiben who provided thoughts on certain gags. This video wouldn't have been as good without everyone's help on it. Anyway uh, quick house keeping out of the way, obviously, this channel looks different than it did a year ago. Its been over a year since the last upload, which wasn't intentional, but hey, life happens. I'm transgender/non-binary and stuff, but tbh, I don't really have any interest in doing a big update video explaining things. This channel isn't called FuseFall anymore, and you can call me Kim or Bee, that's kind of all there is to it lmao. This is still a video essay channel, but now I just use a different name. I'm really excited to show people what I've been cooking up over the last year, because I have some fun topics in store. Anyway, that's all for now, I'm KimBee, signing out, cya!
Also, I love how Wallace's relationship with Todd kinda mirrored both how Envy used Scott, and how Ramona used her past exes and tossed them aside as if they meant nothing. It's a funny joke but it also happens to mirror the main characters' flaws.
Cool to see this explored in further depth, having started at the Edgar Wright movie I acknowledged the queerness and certainly more themes in the anime but it's cool to see it all at once. Appreciate your work to put it on display and further delve into the topics.
I’m bi think I have abandonment issues from abuse and stuff but I also admit I hurt people by abandoning them because after feeling abandoned a lot I legitimately thought people didn’t care about me like that, like I thought friends I made in high school wouldn’t mind either way if I just left one day. The scenes in the anime where she fought and apologized to Roxie made me want to cry
I never really liked the whole Julie and Stephen thing, I love them both but Julie’s brutally honest personality isn’t good for Stephen’s anxious nature and it makes it worse that they were on and off which is even more unhealthy. I’m happy they ditched it in the anime and getting Julie with Gideon cause they’re the evil duo I love and they’re hilarious together. Stephen needed someone chill and calm cause he doesn’t need that extra stress (he looks 40 when he’s 22).
I thought this was gonna be some homophobic video but I’m glad it’s not Also I like how you mention how Wallace is so nice to Scott which is what someone should be since Scott is just confused and stupid needing some to steer someone in the right direction I like to think the knives-Kim make out is gross but it’s meant to be I think Kim is mostly shown to be a alright person compared to Scott and showing her doing something shitty like that shows Kim is flawed which I think is by done alot but could of been done better Edit: I forgot to mention on my first watch but Scott pilgrim vs the world (movie) actually made me discover that I’m not straight by making me go “damn Wallace is kinda hot…wait am I gay” and now I’m bisexual
I honestly feel like everyone who isn't confirmed to be a certain sexuality in Scott Pilgrim is bi, except a few of the exes (Anime Lucas and Gideon for example). Even Scott feels like he is just repressing bisexuality (Which would make sense given that he seems to have a warped view on sexuality)
i still remember watching the show with some friends and we all had to pause the show and collectively pick our jaws up off the floor after the "wanna run lines in my trailer?" before bursting out laughing
I really really liked your video essay, I checked your channel and it seems this is one of your first ones aside from videogame stuff. I hope you do more in the future bc I'm really up to see them :)) new sub
I really liked this analysis, good job! I will have to disagree with the point on the Kim and Knives moment in the anime. I honestly doubt that it was a love or queer moment between them more than it was a “love for music” thing that was going on since it’s never really bought up. Could be my bias since I hate the ship with a passion lol. Either way, I think the queer representation in the anime does well!
I think something very interesting in recent fandom discussions of Scott Pilgrim is the prevalence of Transfem/Egg headcanons for Scott. There's a lot of little things (Scott's apparent fixation on lesbians, his panic and anxiety regarding the length of his hair, the fact that all his friends in HS were girls, I could go on) that lend themselves to the interpretation of Scott as an unrealized trans lesbian. It helps that a fair few trans girls (myself included) find something familiar in the idea of a 20-something "straight" guy who sucks starting to get better after hanging out with a slightly alt girl like Ramona (especially if you take Ramona being transfem as a given). I don't remember if I had a point here, but it felt worth mentioning, if at least to hear other people's thoughts about it. In conclusion: Estrogen might not have fixed Scott, but it might have made her a little less depressed.
not very familiar with queerness, but the fight with roxy was the moment I knew this show was gonna be amazing, first of all, seeing the exes develop was great, second it was great to see ramona confront her mistakes and how for what her was just a phase, for the other person was a very important moment in her life, it takes a silly joke from the movie, and turns it into a plot point and one of the best moments of the show
I don't think Roxie was that bad in the movie cause rhey didn't have any time to develop her but Ramona calling her just a phase is still heartbreaking and I'm glad it got developed even further in the anime, goes to show how flawed Ramona is which only really hets exploted at the tail end of the movie ans comic. Also thank you Bryan Lee O'Malley for saying Gex.
i feel like scott pilgrim has less of a queer problem and more of a misogyny problem, in that all of the women characters have to be theoretically available to the protagonist (a man) at all times, completely ruling lesbians out of the picture at least in terms of the main cast. gay men get to have arcs, bi men get to be nuanced, bi women get to exist, lesbians get one mention and its a punchline. granted it improves in the later works but not in any meaninhful way imo
You made an amazing video, and Wallace was my fav even before I came out to myself and others. However, I have a question: Do you think Wallace had a crush on Scott in their college days? I personally feel that it's basically canon at this point. I've seen some people say that if Ramona had to defeat Schott's exes, Wallace would be Roxie's equivalent, and I love that idea.
Good video, now side tangent. I really liked Ramona and Roxy's "confrontation" in takes off but the show as a whole disappointed me because I wanted it to be Ramona going thru ALL her exes and kind of decompressing those relationships
I feel like a crazy person with how much I didn't like Scott Pilgrim Takes Off. I just thought it was really boring and became a lame slog as it went on (I never really cared for the film either), but it's revived Scott Pilgrim in the public eye, so getting to see peoples thoughts and feelings on different aspects of the entire franchise is a real treat.
Okay I freely admit this is partly me being a shipper, but here me out: Kim X Lisa, if only because Lisa is the one person who seems able to make Kim Smile and we don't get the age issue with Kim and Knives.
first video of yours I saw, I really enjoyed it, while my only Scott Pilgrim experince is Takes Off, I do agree with just HOW good the Ramona and Roxie was done just so well, I could tell how bad Ramona felt for truly hurting Roxie. Great work :) and if I may ask, what pronouns are you using
Queer facts about the video game: if you play as wallace there is a combo move you can unlock where he grabs an enemy and kisses them repeatedly while rainbow hearts pop up. And when you play as kim in the summon knives skill animation they kiss and it heals you. Just some small things i thought of because the section on the game was particularly small (bc there's really nothing else to say about it lol)
I'm glad that Takes Off fixed the portrayal of its queer women, but it honestly feels like a major step back in its portrayal of queer men. Wallace lost a lot of his humanity and is just the "funny & mean gay friend" now, the newly queer Todd only exists as a punchline, and Stephen Stills isn't even canonically gay anymore. It's as if the imbalance in representation just flipped the other way; where once we had queer women being sexually objectified, now we have queer men being turned into objects of mockery. At the end of the day, someone still gets treated as an object.
I just finished the show today and I loved it! The characters aren't poorly-written morons, nor are they pedestalised paragons. They're just people being people, going about their relationships, adventures and life! I love it so much! I may not be able to comment that much on queer representation as a straight man but I felt it was treated way more normally and better than other places where it could either be shoved to the side, treated as a "Yeah! We're GAY! Deal with it!" moment or needlessly fetishised either for girls looking for "OMG, look at how cute these gays are! Just wanna put them in my pocket!" or for guys going "Heh! Look at how hot these lesbians are!" This is some good representation to me!
Huh... I hadn't thought about it before, but I can oddly relate to the whole Roxy/Ramona dynamic. My old GF and I were sorta of like that, with me being a lot more emotionally invested while she was treating it as more of a casual fling, not that I blame either of us as we were both rather inexperienced. I was probably too clingy for her, she was maybe to detached for me, and the whole thing was likely never gonna last, even if it weren't for outside complications making a further mess of things.
Ramona said when Roxanne was staying with her, she did in fact make out with her, in no way was Scott being worried just because of the sexuality in the scene. Ramona and Roxy had unfinished business, he was worried it would ruin his and Ramona’s relationship…
Wait, are Knives and Kim supposed to have gotten together in the anime??? Even knowing the history of their kiss in the franchise, I thought they were strictly platonic in that one.
@@sassafrass_studios I honestly see them as more so platonic. I feel like the heart in the background / the scene in general to me is them sharing a common bond with each other and opening up as people. They could be gay, but they could also just be friends. I mainly mentioned it in the video because I wanted to highlight how they made their bond not weird compared to the graphic novel
I never really portrayed the whole kim and knives kissing scene as fetishization, for me it seemed not as weird as everyone sees it, knives in that scene is still a confused and emotionally broken teenager and kim is just a broken person in general that is seen to be kinda into woman, and yeah people really do this kind of stuff while drunk its not really uncommon. I have to agree tho its still a bit weird for kim to go for it knowing she is responsible and also I don't like how they never really expanded into it at all, the scene was really useless and it didn't add much.
Kim making out with Knives is important for one reason. It shows that Kim is just as bad as Scott on her worst days. All of these people suck. That's the point. If you associate with one of them or like one of them then another it gives you something to look at by holding up a mirror to your shitty parts.
Not that I condone Knives and Kim's relationship (and especially not like it) either, but to be fair, Scott Pilgrim is set in Canada (which the creator is also from) and the age of consent there is 16. She may not be an adult yet, and has definitely not fully matured, it wasn't "illegal". The age of consent in America is 18, when you are an adult, but you finish maturing in your late 20's and feel like it should be higher in America too.
you've hit rock bottom Kimberly
I agree
Pin of bottom
Who’s the bottom, now?
We're all bottoms now
Wallace's shock at genuine sparks will never not be hilarious
Yeah I love that joke so much. I think I ended up rewatching that scene once or twice while writing this video because it just makes me laugh LMAO
I'm sorry, but which scene?
@@elwiththem in the epilog, when he and Mobile kiss in Paris
Heeeyyyy Hunter pfp! Let's goooooo
Yess!!! also I adore your pfp 🥹💗
Small unimportant (but fun) detail, but in the scene of Roxie and Ramona's past in the anime, the song playing is called "And They Were Roommates."
oh my god they were roommates
This feels like important knowledge!
This is incredible, thank you
holy shit
the sappho reference LMAOO
maybe it’s just me, but Scott getting rid of his poster of two women kissing when he moves in with Ramona shows him moving past that simple fetishized view of lesbians
no I agree, part of why I like that arc is because he does "grow". he fully realizes that he loves ramona and "moves on" from his issues with the roxie situation. I used a panel from it mainly because I needed footage, and it was one of the few gay related frames that I hadn't used yet
He was in lesbians with that poster
The fact he offers it to Kim after seeing her with Knives tho LMAO
He calls it her “sexy phase” and in the comics tells kim and ramona to make out when drunk
Not meaning to discount this opinion in any way, just to give some additional context to the poster, since I get the impression the audience for this channel is a bit younger than me (I was the age the characters were when it takes place).
That poster was a STAPLE in basically every guys dorm room. It was a cliche to own it, it was so popular. It very much cements it in a very specific time frame, and the general attitude of the era. So outside of fetishizing lesbians, it does a good chunk of world building for those old enough to have been there.
Also just some general info about the poster, it's called The Kiss, by Tanya Chalkin. It was commissioned by Henrietta Morrison, co-founder of "queercompany", in response to the gay magazine Gay Times having mostly male porn and sex content, and she wanted an image that would "stand for something".
A close friend of Tanya (who's unfortunately passed on), had this to say about her motivations for doing the picture: "Everything had to be perfect and she was never prepared to compromise on that. She was trying to create something that was sensual but classy. I don’t think she ever thought she was going to be changing the world but she always had this gut reaction and instinct as to what would work and what would look beautiful.”
I like how the video title implies Scott is fighting either A. His own Queerness or B. Queer people
LOL
Honestly: Both. He fought some queer people, and I still have a hard time believing that man is entirely heterosexual.
@@puppetpawss imma be honest scott looks both so fucking fruity and straight at the same time
@@puppetpawssyeah I mean the whole time him Wallace were roommates they always shared the same bed. I don't believe for a second that Wallace wouldn't have tried to make a move at least once or at the very least talk to Scott about it.
Its funny because no one whos engaged with the series would think that
I always viewed Kim kissing Knives in the comics as very out of character for Kim. She seemed to be disgusted when Scott started dating Knives, not because she was a bitter exe but because Knives was underage and Kim knew that Scott was using Knives. I know that Kim and Knives were both drunk but in that situation Kim was taking advantage of Knives while she was drunk.
I just hate how all the stuff Knives suffers through is played for jokes. She’s one of my characters and it sucks to see how she gets treated.
yeah I think its really upsetting how often she suffers. it feels like every volume has her massively suffer in some way
Yeah when I saw that scene it kinda felt like Knives had been groomed into it and I felt very weird about it. As a queer person Kim and knives are my favorites and generally I'd be extremely happy w my faves been queer but that scene always made me feel very weird
Yeah that scene always just felt like unnecessary shock value to me since it never got brought up ever again... But at least them never bringing it up ever again also helps make it easier to ignore it and just pretend it never happened while rereading the comics...
But then the fucking video game happened with the ending where they end up together + special kissing animation of them and some of the other stuff they did with her in that game 💀
Knives shouldn’t have ended with anyone tbh. She was much too young and she was largely viewed as an annoyance by the other characters. Never made much sense for her to be with Kim in my opinion.
If Kim was going to be with anyone, have it be one of Ramona’s Ex’s tbh. Would’ve fit, with her receiving closure at the time that they do.
@@Doomzdeh wait I read the comics a while ago but didn't knives end up with young Neil or something. Which low-key made sense. The Kim thing was a weird one off
Wlw relationships in Scott pilgrim : “You made me feel like nothing!!!”
Mlm relationships in Scott pilgrim: “Wanna run lines in your trailer?”
tbf, that was just Wallace being Wallace
@@theblan1k0ne he’s the main character
It could also be seen as Wallace getting back at Envy on Scott's behalf.
@@Freshlydeliveredegg FAAAAACTS
@@SuperDanMan11100 knowing Wallace, that would make sense
I did not expect to be so thrilled by the jam scene between Knives and Kim. To replace a dirty distasteful joke by this heartfelt wholesome moment was so unexpected, and it might be the perfect choice.
It was a great and needed change imo
As a queer woman, I feel like the way we're portrayed in media in general is just kind of blegh. It's very male-gaze-y. People tend to often talk about how it's more "okay" to show women kissing over men kissing and of course it is, when the whole deal about it is it being more about the ones viewing it than the women who kiss.
Big agree. I think its a very complex topic that ends up hurting both queer women and queer men with how one is seen as "more okay" than the other
@@kimbeeely Yes, especially when the "more okay" is for the wrong reasons, because people think it's 'hot to watch' and the concept of queer women is degraded to sex object.
@mirandazhang1359are you talking about the kiss between Todd and Wallace or something else? I found it kinda gross ngl
edit: nvm I didn't watch the entire video, soz
@mirandazhang1359To me the sparks seem more like basically a magic vibe check, so it's less not taking them seriously, and more like a "Yeah, not the right person for eachother."
Like, Wallace probably kissed hundreds of guys and never saw sparks until right at the end, and Scott and Ramona seemed surprised at the sparks their first time, so it's reasonable to assume they didn't have the sparks with any of their exes.
I've noticed that, as you said, kisses between women is acceptable because "awooga lesbians that would totally date a man", but I've also seen some media where guys kissing is better because of some weirdly homo erotic misogyny? Like either way, both identities aren't exactly being validated and women are being objectified in both scenarios.
Somewhat unrelated, but it reminds me of how 'interracial' and same race relationships in media come off to me. Like sometimes I see media that has a lot of interracial relationships, beyond just white person and black person, but when every relationship is just that it feels fetishy depending on the content and avoidant of poc being with other POC. But when I see media of black characters only being with black characters and chinese characters only being with chinese characters and so on, while it definitely can be positive like with black love and joy, sometimes it sends the message that people of different ethnicities shouldn't be in relationships. Both have positive aspects for sure, but when one "dynamic" is shown more often all the negatives become more visible to a POC like me.
I dunno. I feel like it isn't hard to have characters in love that are both the same race and different races, without being just one or the other. I know everyone has subconscious biases they can't easily get rid of or even acknowledge without external aid, but the ""pureness"" of same race relationships and the "savior complex/fetishization" of interracial relationships just makes me uncomfortable. As a POC you can't date whoever you're interested in without wondering if there's an underlying reason for it (at least in the good ol USA), or how others will perceive your relationships. Just dehumanization across the board, whether in terms of race/ethnicity, gender, and definitely disability.
A shame we havent adapted and accepted 'Bi furious' more
Its an incredible phase
so true
I think it could've been included in a different way, like Scott saying "you were BI-CURIOUS?", in which Ramona corrects Scott after the Bi-furious line.
Fr
One thing that still really bugs me as a brown dude is now nobody talks about the fetishization of Mathew Pattel's ethnicity. He’s one of the only characters of colour in the entire series, and he's singled out by Ramona as only being dated because he is brown and has mystical powers.
As much as I love the news series making him basically a main character, he's still not really given the same treatment as the other exes. His frustration with being used as a tool is still kinda a joke. I can personally relate to Matt, I've definitely had women hit on me because I'm a brown dude. They hated white men so much that they somehow thought dating a minority would be different.
It sucks, in a uniquely racist way for Ramona. When I was younger I didn't notice because I saw myself alot more in Scott, but man. I've been there Matt. I've had alt girls fetishize my race and treat me like a novelty rather than a person. It honestly makes it really hard for me to like any literation about Ramona. I'm also bi, so seeing how Roxy was treated in the show was a nice change because that was another uniquely discriminatory and awful way she treated someone.
Oh well, at least he got to star in the musical.
Yeah I think thats really fair, and I'm sorry for your experiences with people fetishizing your race
I agree and I think if he wasn’t a walking stereotype it would’ve helped show what they were trying to show, which is that Ramona only dated him because she fetishized him and she’s a bad person
But when he shows up and is exactly as she described, it ruins the joke because it then becomes that the media is doing the very thing it’s trying to critique
And it’s racist
Yeah, just the fact he has "mystical powers" is really off putting as time goes on. It was a big thing I thought has been generally badly handled in all of the series different forms
I think it was done purposefully to show Ramona’s flaws, Matthew Patel is obviously shown to be in a completely different league from the other exes, they’re all rich, famous and that while he is just a theatre kid, the only reason Ramona dated him is because she wanted to be rebellious and turn down all the jocks for the kid who was different. Send wasn’t attracted to him because he is Indian, she probably wasn’t into him at all, she just wanted to rebel against the norm (hot girl dates white jock) and I think that’s clear from the fact they only dated for like 2 weeks before she moved on, showing there were no serious feelings.
@@NaThingSerious that’s also what I said, but I think it strengthens the point if he’s not a walking stereotype irl and just is in her retelling
I remember saying to myself while watching takes off “wouldn’t it be so funny if Todd and Wallace had a toxic situationship” and then lost my shit when it happened five seconds later
so the real takeaway here is that wallace is a perfect babygirl angel that has never done anything wrong, actually. no but absolutely love this video because scott pilgrim was also a very prominent part of my teenage years and having been a fan of the comic/movie/video game, and being queer, it was so fulfilling to see the anime approach its queer characters with such a smart and fun openness to how they’re written!
I know people hate wallace for turning down todd in the new show but I kinda love it? He's kinda an asshole and its interesting cause a lot of media featuring queer media put them as these perfect angels making them super bland. But wallace has sm personality. Also I kinda saw wallace rejecting Todd as an inverse of the trope where the straight guy tricks the gay guy to make fun of him? I dunno but I like wallace
One of the underdiscussed aspects of Knives and Kim making out, I think, is that despite it "never being spoken of again" it's actually an enormous looming presence all throughout volume four.
Because the fact that girls can make out with each other threatens Scott IMMENSELY. He immediately starts obsessing about it, and he specifically starts obsessing about it in the context of "Ramona could leave me for a woman. Why wouldn't she? Women are awesome and I sort of suck." Even more specifically, he's threatened by Kim; spazzing out when Kim jokes about Ramona dumping him; "And what, marry YOU?"
Ramona spends volumes two through five very... interested... in Kim. The narrative goes out of its way to mention this over and over, culminating in Ramona LITERALLY propositioning her for a threesome. Scott doesn't go into that tailspin without seeing Kim kiss another girl. It maybe shouldn't have been Knives (although I think there's a discussion to be had there) and Knives' own queerness needs more discussing in general, I think, but it at least has a narrative point.
(Sidebar: the color versions of the GN's include a lot of BLOM's notes to himself in the back, included as extras. If you look in the back of volume five, you'll find where he wrote a note to himself "Scott + Ramona + Kim! Why not!" That might have been an interesting direction to go.)
I think I want to disagree a little about Kim and Roxie kissing each other being a joke? Like... episode three is sort of Kim's episode, to the extent Kim gets one. (Kim keeps getting shafted in terms of screen time and development in various adaptations.) And I'm going to lay down a marker; Kim doesn't kiss Roxie if that duet with Knives doesn't happen. That's an emotionally charged moment for Kim; she forms a connection with someone that's so instantly strong and powerful she openly weeps, which is not something a character typically defined by being sullen and slightly mean normally does.
Without that minute and a half with Knives opening Kim to the possibility of emotional intimacy with others, specifically other girls, I don't think she opens up to Ramona to the extent she does, and I don't think she decides "Oh. Huh. A girl would like to kiss me. Hmm! I... -could- kiss a girl. Okay then."
tbh I hadn't thought of Kim and Roxie kissing in that way before, and I think that's a cool way to think about it. I think viewing it as a form of opening up that leads to Kim's progress as a person is interesting, and that further "contextualizes" some of her later actions
An important part of the scene with Kim and Roxy imo is that while it is played for a joke, the joke isn't the "women kissing" part, it's the "Eh, no sparks" "Worth a shot!" exchange after and just the general interaction between their personalities.
@@eaglest0554 Oh, yes, that's absolutely played for comedy. Especially Roxie's leglock of Kim, which is incredibly hilarious. But it is, as you say, not funny in a "ha ha girls making out" sense, but in a "subverts expectations" sense; you would expect such a lushly animated kiss, complete with spit trail, to be highly significant, and the humor comes from "nah, Roxie offered, Kim accepted, it was okay, but not really special." That's funny, and in an oddly wholesome way!
Ha, yeah I can see Scott's fallacy.
I do think that mindset is reasonable from an evolutionary standpoint, even if it is a bit unfortunate (and potentially dangerous) in a civilization so far removed from base nature.
Remember this: the animal inside you is not your foe, it is simply trying to keep you alive and ensure that you have kids. It is a tool for survival as an individual and as a species, completely suppressing it or letting it have complete control is inviting disaster. Me, specifically my still unfinished book.
I always Hated the movie for turning oroxi into a sexulized girl as well as having the sex joke with Scott erasing roxi being a lesbian. Bi women are treated as straight and lesbians are treated as bi
Yeah I agree. It kinda just oversimplifies Roxie and makes her boring
But I always knew her as Bi-furious (which I thought was hilarious)
YEAHHH
@@kimbeeelyagreed
honestly no one in scott pilgrim is straight in my opinion
what about Scott Pilgrim?
@@VinTheDirector him too
i mean, you're not totally wrong
I rock with this tbh
@@Polychromatic8 i think the only straight character in the main cast is neil (and i'm not even sure If he's straight)
I love Kim and Ramona. The idea that a bipolar or bipolar coded character can be accepted and even loved by someone who has a long history of breaking up over tiny things is so beautiful to me.
Also I am both bipolar and bisexual, so Kim is already my favorite.
So you mean to tell us you're bi bi?
@@comrademiku854 just wait until you figure out I’m bigender as well
@@urenbywife2007
tri bi
@@comrademiku854 bye bye byeeeee
bi^3
Personally I like how the comic handles bi-exploration, the way they hint at Scott and Wallace have a gay meeting experience, the way Kim keeps experimenting with her sexuality, the way they show that sexuality can change and isn’t permanent, and I love Wallace in the comments sooo much. The movie is a bit worse, Wallace is more of just an overly gay joke than a full character (tho is still great) and Roxie is handled poorly. In the new Netflix series, I love Wallace even more, and I love how they handle Roxie in that, with much more development and showing Roxie’s side, I also loved when Wallace turned Todd gay, that was well written and funny, it also shows Wallace’s crush on Scott which is shown more in the comics, Wallace makes multiple remarks about Scott being hot and I think in the comics even says he only lets him live with him because he is hot, so it was interesting seeing Wallace in a gay romance with Todd dressed as Scott
In real life sexuality is a permanent thing tho. I've never ever met anyone in my life that came out and "changed their sexuality", all of them were always this way, only hiding it from themselves and the world. As a gay man, the idea that sexuality can change gives me the creeps, because I always liked boys, only boys, and that will never change in my life. Believing that sexuality can change is a very harmful idea that contributes with the perception that conversion therapy has real results. It has not.
@@nothinginteresting7558 it’s not harmful, I’ve known many people who have confidently said that they were straight then a couple years later came out as bi or gay, and I’ve seen the opposite where people convinced they were gay then went back to being straight a few years later. Maybe it’s wrong to say sexuality can change, but your idea of your sexuality can change, you may not realise you are gay and then years later come out, or you think your gay but years later after actually trying to date a guy realise that its not for you. But I do believe sexuality can change, after all it is just your sexual preference and whether you prefer men or women can change. Just like how people who are bi may have a preference to men or women and this preference can change (so they may go from preferring men to preferring women), people who are straight or gay can change their mind, your preference isn’t a permanent thing. Ofc for many it doesn’t change and it’s unclear whether your sexuality actually changes or if you just realise something you didn’t before, but for all practical purposes that is the same as changing your sexuality because you went from saying “I like women” to saying “I like men”
Something I am REALLY mad abt is Knives x Kim, I have seen people ship them but hate on Scott x Knives. BOTH ARE A PRODLEMTIC, HATE BOTH, IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE, DONT SHIP ADULTS WITH MINORS, ITS BAD ITS EW STOP IT STOP ITTTT
Anyways, other then that short rant i really enjoyed watching this vid! The part that i enjoyed the most in Scott Pilgrim takes off might be ep 4, or the whole arc of Roxie and Ramona. It made me cry so hard so many times and I fucking love it. Great vid!!!!
Thank you, and also big agree. I think its just straight up not a great pairing
Bad things shouldn't exist in fiction? Futhermore while it is bad, legally they are not minors in the context of sex in the setting as Canada's age of consent is weirdly 16. In the context of drinking, minor is under 19.
@@Luxembourgish The issue isn't necessarily that bad things should not be depicted in fiction -- Knives' relationship with Scott was a good depiction of a bad thing. Scott was pretty much just using her for emotional satisfaction, and as someone who hasn't had the opportunity to go to college and live life and fail like everyone else, Knives had no way of knowing how unhealthy that was. The issue comes with how Kim and Knives in the comic wasn't treated by the story with the same level of harshness, despite the fact that Kim is about the same age as Scott and herself criticized Scott for his behavior. Contrast with Takes Off, where the scene showing Kim and Knives relating is far more platonic and clearly about both of them finding self-expression through music, and doesn't clash with the previously stated issues the story brings up with Scott's behavior.
@@Luxembourgish regardless it’s still out of character for kim
@@Luxembourgisha 17 year old is a kid compared to an actual adult. Let's not try to argue "but so and so isn't a minor because of this very specific reason". Nope. Knives is a minor, and she is getting exploited and used by the adults around her in the series. In fact, that's the whole point of her arc. Bad things can exist in fiction as long as they are called out as bad.
Tbh, I hardcore side eye Bryan O’Malley for never really doing anything about Knives being groomed and essentially assaulted by these adult characters (among other sexist writing choices). Even though Knives’ age is pointed out in passing, the adult characters who took advantage of her are never held accountable and we’re ultimately meant to see them as messy but well meaning characters while Knives is just a part of their “flaws”.
LITERALLY. I hate it so much. I would love the series a lot more if the grooming and SA wasn't??? so bADLY HANDLED?
Knives is the most accurate portrayal of a minor that has dated older people I’ve ever seen. Also, Scott is a piece of shit but he wasn’t grooming Knives. He was dating her so he could convince himself he moved on from Envy. Bryan Lee O Malley never intended to make Knives a happy character. Knives is a realistic portrayal of the importance of age difference and not a redemption story for Scott.
STILL CREEPY THOUGH.
@@urenbywife2007 YEAH, LIKE YOU SAID IN THE FINAL BIT, COULD'VE GONE WAY BETTER WITH SOME BETTER CHOICES
@@urenbywife2007 even if it's a realistic portrayal in the sense nothing is done about it, it also comes off as justifying adults dating and making moves on a minor. Even you saying Scott wasn't grooming Knives is part of the problem on why the comic should've addressed it, especially when a lot of the readers were/are teens. He dated her knowing she was 17, there's literally no excuses for it.
@@sapphic.flower sorry, i don´t see how the series justify adults making moves on a minor.
I think all of the medium made pretty clear that Scoot dating a minor wasn´t cool, and he was being, allthought lightly, being judged by his friends and family about it. I think its a pretty decent look on this kind of bad relationship that happens quite a lot irl, and a minor reading could see themselves on knifes and notice she was a bit too obsesed too. Could you elaborate on how it justifys grooming?
This was an amazing analysis! I’m currently writing an essay on queer rep in Scott Pilgrim, and I’d love to use this video as a source, especially in discussions about Roxie since I think you absolutely hit it out of the park. Great work all around!
Thank you! And you’re free to use this video as a source! Good luck with writing your essay
@@kimbeeely Much appreciated, thank you!
As much as earlier scott pilgrim media had its errors it meant a lot to me at the time and seeing Takes Off really improve on what was there in the original. I really hope if we get more Scott Pilgrim it continues at this level of quality. Thanks for making this 💜
thank you!
I can't remember where I've seen it but i read that one of the people involved in the show talked about Wallace's behaviour in the movie episode was his way of coping with Scott's death, and that being why Wallace only liked him when he was wearing Scott's costume
the video title sounds like Scott is about to fight the whole gay community
Scott vs Wallace's Fabulous Exes for the next version that comes out next decade?
Do you think he would win?
@@judeconnor-macintyre9874 Nah, he'd lose
@cmmosher8035 that would be a good pitch for a season 2 but that's possibly never going to happen
So Scott fights all of Wallace’s exes and then the lesbians
Slight problem: stephen didnt become gay lol. Saying he “isnt gay in the beginning” implies that his sexuality changed. It didnt. He realized he was gay later on, but he was in the closet before that. Its not uncommon for closeted people to be in straight relationships, and it doesnt change their sexuality.
Maybe it was just a poor choice of words (maybe you meant he isnt shown as gay in the beginning) but still, word choice is important.
Stephen is bisexual. Other than that, you're correct.
@@theaawalker he literally says "i'm gay" in book 6. he's gay.
I mean, sure? sexuality is fluid, or can be. it can shift and change over our lives. it isn't fixed. @@JacMirie
I mean, I think sexuality is more complex than that. Both can happen. Some folks are closeted and realise they're gay later. Some folks find that their sexulity changes over time. So it could be either. Stephen could be exclusively homo or could be bi, some folks use 'gay' to mean either. The idea of fluid orientation doesn't go against anyone's validity at all! So I like the idea that he's changed over time, cos I did too. It's rad.
@@shoepixie knowing the author, I highly doubt he uses the word gay and queer synonymously
This was a really great discussion of the queer topics of the series with a shift in your humor compared to the past, great editing and the classic KimBee awesome writing. Great video, just for that you can get Pilotwings in 2025!
Ty ty! I will continue to be out of pocket, for its what the children yearn for. Speaking of yearning, Pilotwings, tomorrow
kim, this is the first video of yours i've seen, and it's great. you seamlessly integrated the progression of scott pilgrim over the years, your own experiences, and queer representation throughout each piece of media, in a way that left me emotionally engaged. i'm so excited to see what else you plan on creating moving forward
ty ty! I'm really glad to hear that you enjoyed this!
Prolly one of your better videos honestly, even if its not like, super in depth or emotional. Ya don't always need that to make something enjoyable. I think the topic was explored well enough to where it carries the video on its own. But, your writing/humor added to it a lot. You spoke about this stuff with confidence while keeping the tone casual and easy to digest.
Thank you my buddy Ian. I think for me, the most challenging part was definitely trying to inject my own personal "style" into this video, because I didn't want to have it be a "dry" video. While watching my old videos, I definitely noticed that they're a little "dry" sometimes (though that's not as much of an issue for later ones), and I wanted to step it up a little for this video.
Casualness was definitely another big one just because tbh, I didn't want to make something overly serious lmao
this show was a fucking drug for me and now im hooked.
so true. I rewatched it while writing this video, and while editing, I ended up rewatching it again lmao
@@kimbeeely give me a damn suggestion on the rest of my campaign like im playing on a ps3 my favoriye nfs games so might aswell fill the blank in with the rest of scott pilgrimage...
update: i got da ps3 game due to totally legal games, ost is verrrry nice
i like kim pine... yeah this show is a fucking tumor ok thanks
I fucking love the fact that the music playing in the background of the Roxy and Ramona backstory in Takes Off is titled “And They Were Roommates” on the soundtrack
Seeing snippets as you were editing already had me excited but watching the full product on the tv was worth it. Most out of pocket video you’ve done, it feels so in line with how we talk but damn if it’s still not insightful and has your voice. Be proud of this video, fuckin amazing comeback and I couldn’t a prouder sibling
I always read the Kim/Knives kiss as a moment to point out Kim's flaws too - pretty much every other character wears their flaws on their sleeves, but Kim seems to have the moral high ground all the time. Making Kim a hypocrite for criticising Scott for dating Knives and then making out with her gives her a flaw that her character otherwise doesn't really have.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who was really wowed by the show's reinterpretations of so many characters! Roxie always deserved better and she finally got it. Great video!
9 months late but i really loved this! i haven't ever really thought about the queer implications of scott pilgrim up until SPTO (but even in that case, queerness was handled much better and clearer in that than any other scott pilgrim media,) mostly because im cis-het and only really thought about the story through scotts perspective, not only because its the main one we follow but because its the one i relate to the most. SPTO really opened my eyes retroactively but this video really tore them open for me. i love getting to hear queer (or any other marginalized community for that matter,) takes on franchises i love because it usually recontexualizes things for me in a way i could never achieve or understand on my own, so thank you!
See I love the Roxie x Kim kiss in this because it is not a "Oh she's not gay joke", it's a they just aren't into each other joke. Kim is shown to be at least interested in women in the comics, I think the joke works so well because it's never framed as her seeing if she's gay.
And while I think the way Knives is treated as a character is actually awful, I also do like her overall growth from a sheltered girl to a more confident young adult. At no point do they go over the top with it and it probably could have been handled a lot better, it was also obviously based on the experience of hanging out with adults and how weird and confusing it can be.
Todd has my heart forever now
true
Now I’m extra glad I binged Scott Pilgrim Takes Off with my partner last night
omg same!
so real
I misread this as, "I binged my partner last night."
I love that he made Stephen turned out to be a gay dude. But what I hate is that they explicitly say that he's gay, and people try to make him Bi because he dated Julie. Gay guys could have dated girls in the past before they realized who they were, people!!!
As a gay man, that’s how queerness in media should work. It doesn’t need to always be in the spotlight nor shoved out of the way. Not everything needs to be queer, but not everything needs to be straight, an ok amount of both is good enough.
I agree!
that was real af! super happy to see the whole thing come together.. queer analyses of media is always a great thing fosho
thank you thank you! I wanna do more queer analyses in the future
The Scott Pilgrim comics are about a straight guy navigating the early 2000s as a grand fuckup. Its the plot that his fuckups need to Stop and not just stop, but be actively worked back so he can let the people in his life move forward from them, just like him. In that series, at that time of history, queerness is very ancillary and its a miracle it came out as well as it did. Wallace Wells is our self confident king who is very not traumatized and he deserves all the love he gets.
In Vs. The World we get something put together by executives. These executives think that the Fuckup is Scott Fighting the evil exes in order to "Win" a partner, when there's a perfectly earnest person looking to Be his partner. Which is Fucking Stupud because she's 17 and that's Also a Fuckup. Both things are Not Good. But hey, they were already halfway through filming so lets just go all in on the "Fight 7 people to win a non-zero amount of confidence from the person who didn't say she would date you just because you fought those people". Wallace is still our untraumatized king but he's quite in a realm of his own giving out witty quips while the plot happens around him.
Scott Pilgrim Takes off is both not About a straight guy and is written 20 years later with 20 years of analysis and hind sight to back it up. Its About Ramona, and her fuckups. Her fuck ups have to stop, and not just stop, be actively worked back so she can let the people in her life move forward from them, just like her. In this series, at this time, queerness is an integral part of Ramona's identity. Scott is Missing and Ramona is forced to realize that how she affects people was fairly toxic, and if she doesn't shape up too she will hurt Scott in a way that encourages him to regress.
Overall, Scott Pilgrim Takes Off isn't About him. He Takes Off. Its about Ramona, and Ramona is a queer main character.
Looking back at the anime, I've only just realised that six of the 13ish (depends who you count) main characters are queer (Being Roxie, Ramona, Todd, Kim, Stephen and Wallace), and that isn't including the characters who could very easily be queer (The other five exes all have varying degrees of likelihood to be queer, Knives is likely queer, etc). That is almost a majority!
the kim and knives relationship from takes off isnt queer at all, they arent together in it
Hey everyone, KimBee (formally FuseFall) here! I just wanted to give a big thank you to everyone who helped with this video! Shoutout to Rowe Reviews who provided script feedback, the thumbnail, and intro, and also PacJeff who watched the video before release to help make sure that there were no editing errors!. Shoutouts also go to rose.mov and Amiiben who provided thoughts on certain gags. This video wouldn't have been as good without everyone's help on it.
Anyway uh, quick house keeping out of the way, obviously, this channel looks different than it did a year ago. Its been over a year since the last upload, which wasn't intentional, but hey, life happens. I'm transgender/non-binary and stuff, but tbh, I don't really have any interest in doing a big update video explaining things. This channel isn't called FuseFall anymore, and you can call me Kim or Bee, that's kind of all there is to it lmao. This is still a video essay channel, but now I just use a different name. I'm really excited to show people what I've been cooking up over the last year, because I have some fun topics in store.
Anyway, that's all for now, I'm KimBee, signing out, cya!
Ah, so that's why Kim was always your favorite, 'cause she was you all along :3
based. carry on, gender-neutral monarch.🎉
I finished the anime 30 minutes ago and already got videos like this in my recommendations.
Also, I love how Wallace's relationship with Todd kinda mirrored both how Envy used Scott, and how Ramona used her past exes and tossed them aside as if they meant nothing. It's a funny joke but it also happens to mirror the main characters' flaws.
Cool to see this explored in further depth, having started at the Edgar Wright movie I acknowledged the queerness and certainly more themes in the anime but it's cool to see it all at once. Appreciate your work to put it on display and further delve into the topics.
thank you!
I’m bi think I have abandonment issues from abuse and stuff but I also admit I hurt people by abandoning them because after feeling abandoned a lot I legitimately thought people didn’t care about me like that, like I thought friends I made in high school wouldn’t mind either way if I just left one day.
The scenes in the anime where she fought and apologized to Roxie made me want to cry
I never really liked the whole Julie and Stephen thing, I love them both but Julie’s brutally honest personality isn’t good for Stephen’s anxious nature and it makes it worse that they were on and off which is even more unhealthy. I’m happy they ditched it in the anime and getting Julie with Gideon cause they’re the evil duo I love and they’re hilarious together. Stephen needed someone chill and calm cause he doesn’t need that extra stress (he looks 40 when he’s 22).
Stephen and Joseph and Wallace and mobile were the only healthy relationships in the entire series
After watching about 5-6 hrs of content I can finally watch a 15min video
I thought this was gonna be some homophobic video but I’m glad it’s not
Also I like how you mention how Wallace is so nice to Scott which is what someone should be since Scott is just confused and stupid needing some to steer someone in the right direction
I like to think the knives-Kim make out is gross but it’s meant to be I think Kim is mostly shown to be a alright person compared to Scott and showing her doing something shitty like that shows Kim is flawed which I think is by done alot but could of been done better
Edit: I forgot to mention on my first watch but Scott pilgrim vs the world (movie) actually made me discover that I’m not straight by making me go “damn Wallace is kinda hot…wait am I gay” and now I’m bisexual
thanks! glad you enjoyed it!
“Sometimes, hot gay steamy sex is one of the funniest things in the world”
- George Washington
I honestly feel like everyone who isn't confirmed to be a certain sexuality in Scott Pilgrim is bi, except a few of the exes (Anime Lucas and Gideon for example). Even Scott feels like he is just repressing bisexuality (Which would make sense given that he seems to have a warped view on sexuality)
The movie did give the "L word? Lesbians?" quote that's just been there forever
This is cool! Hope your channel grows
thank you! it definitely has grown a lot from this video
i still remember watching the show with some friends and we all had to pause the show and collectively pick our jaws up off the floor after the "wanna run lines in my trailer?" before bursting out laughing
Scott Pilgrim Vs. Queerness ... Why pit two queens against eachother?
Extremely well made video you are now one of my new favorite youtubers
Thank you! :)
I really really liked your video essay, I checked your channel and it seems this is one of your first ones aside from videogame stuff. I hope you do more in the future bc I'm really up to see them :))
new sub
thank you a lot! glad you enjoyed it. I like to kinda mix between non-video game and video game stuff. still undecided on whats next tbh
Sorry but out of context the phrase “it portrays gay and bisexual women as being quote unquote sexy” is such a roast
I really liked this analysis, good job! I will have to disagree with the point on the Kim and Knives moment in the anime. I honestly doubt that it was a love or queer moment between them more than it was a “love for music” thing that was going on since it’s never really bought up. Could be my bias since I hate the ship with a passion lol. Either way, I think the queer representation in the anime does well!
I think something very interesting in recent fandom discussions of Scott Pilgrim is the prevalence of Transfem/Egg headcanons for Scott. There's a lot of little things (Scott's apparent fixation on lesbians, his panic and anxiety regarding the length of his hair, the fact that all his friends in HS were girls, I could go on) that lend themselves to the interpretation of Scott as an unrealized trans lesbian. It helps that a fair few trans girls (myself included) find something familiar in the idea of a 20-something "straight" guy who sucks starting to get better after hanging out with a slightly alt girl like Ramona (especially if you take Ramona being transfem as a given).
I don't remember if I had a point here, but it felt worth mentioning, if at least to hear other people's thoughts about it.
In conclusion: Estrogen might not have fixed Scott, but it might have made her a little less depressed.
“or gets cuts” and then shows lisa☹️
not very familiar with queerness, but the fight with roxy was the moment I knew this show was gonna be amazing, first of all, seeing the exes develop was great, second it was great to see ramona confront her mistakes and how for what her was just a phase, for the other person was a very important moment in her life, it takes a silly joke from the movie, and turns it into a plot point and one of the best moments of the show
I don't think Roxie was that bad in the movie cause rhey didn't have any time to develop her but Ramona calling her just a phase is still heartbreaking and I'm glad it got developed even further in the anime, goes to show how flawed Ramona is which only really hets exploted at the tail end of the movie ans comic. Also thank you Bryan Lee O'Malley for saying Gex.
i feel like scott pilgrim has less of a queer problem and more of a misogyny problem, in that all of the women characters have to be theoretically available to the protagonist (a man) at all times, completely ruling lesbians out of the picture at least in terms of the main cast. gay men get to have arcs, bi men get to be nuanced, bi women get to exist, lesbians get one mention and its a punchline.
granted it improves in the later works but not in any meaninhful way imo
The kissing a minor thing was more of knives and lisa breaking the taboos for the lawful good protagonist than any commentary.
Sparks are _real?!_
I loved Takes Off but I needed in my soul gay Steven Stills
I think he probably just meets his boyfriend later in the timeline since Takes Off takes place over a shorter timeline. But also yes
Gracias por el video, resumiste todo lo que pensaba de scott pilgrim y más, again, thank you
thank you!
Roxxy gets so many good one liners in the movie, it is a shame that is all she is 😢
Ok i gotta go now cause i dont want spoilers but ima leave a like
Alr nvmd I just watched the vid anyway, good job 👍
You made an amazing video, and Wallace was my fav even before I came out to myself and others.
However, I have a question: Do you think Wallace had a crush on Scott in their college days? I personally feel that it's basically canon at this point. I've seen some people say that if Ramona had to defeat Schott's exes, Wallace would be Roxie's equivalent, and I love that idea.
Good video, now side tangent. I really liked Ramona and Roxy's "confrontation" in takes off but the show as a whole disappointed me because I wanted it to be Ramona going thru ALL her exes and kind of decompressing those relationships
That scene with Kim and Knives in the anime was not a romantic scene and I’m tired of people acting like it is.
I feel like a crazy person with how much I didn't like Scott Pilgrim Takes Off. I just thought it was really boring and became a lame slog as it went on (I never really cared for the film either), but it's revived Scott Pilgrim in the public eye, so getting to see peoples thoughts and feelings on different aspects of the entire franchise is a real treat.
Okay I freely admit this is partly me being a shipper, but here me out: Kim X Lisa, if only because Lisa is the one person who seems able to make Kim Smile and we don't get the age issue with Kim and Knives.
Before I started the video I went through a mental checklist of gay characters and forgot about Stephen Stills
I always love Scott Pilgrim now looking back love the queerness used is so subtle and good
Even as an asexual, I stan wallace.
first video of yours I saw, I really enjoyed it, while my only Scott Pilgrim experince is Takes Off, I do agree with just HOW good the Ramona and Roxie was done just so well, I could tell how bad Ramona felt for truly hurting Roxie. Great work :) and if I may ask, what pronouns are you using
this is so awesome
thank you!
Forgot to put Stephen Still on the thumb
Jolly good video
Queer facts about the video game: if you play as wallace there is a combo move you can unlock where he grabs an enemy and kisses them repeatedly while rainbow hearts pop up. And when you play as kim in the summon knives skill animation they kiss and it heals you. Just some small things i thought of because the section on the game was particularly small (bc there's really nothing else to say about it lol)
I'm glad that Takes Off fixed the portrayal of its queer women, but it honestly feels like a major step back in its portrayal of queer men. Wallace lost a lot of his humanity and is just the "funny & mean gay friend" now, the newly queer Todd only exists as a punchline, and Stephen Stills isn't even canonically gay anymore. It's as if the imbalance in representation just flipped the other way; where once we had queer women being sexually objectified, now we have queer men being turned into objects of mockery. At the end of the day, someone still gets treated as an object.
Glad to hear I'm not the only one who noticed this
Hey granted Wallace wasn't the only who was flanderlized in this abomination of a show
Ur pfp looks like Mimi's from Mimi's delivery service by Good Kid1!
I just finished the show today and I loved it! The characters aren't poorly-written morons, nor are they pedestalised paragons. They're just people being people, going about their relationships, adventures and life! I love it so much!
I may not be able to comment that much on queer representation as a straight man but I felt it was treated way more normally and better than other places where it could either be shoved to the side, treated as a "Yeah! We're GAY! Deal with it!" moment or needlessly fetishised either for girls looking for "OMG, look at how cute these gays are! Just wanna put them in my pocket!" or for guys going "Heh! Look at how hot these lesbians are!"
This is some good representation to me!
Huh... I hadn't thought about it before, but I can oddly relate to the whole Roxy/Ramona dynamic. My old GF and I were sorta of like that, with me being a lot more emotionally invested while she was treating it as more of a casual fling, not that I blame either of us as we were both rather inexperienced. I was probably too clingy for her, she was maybe to detached for me, and the whole thing was likely never gonna last, even if it weren't for outside complications making a further mess of things.
Ramona said when Roxanne was staying with her, she did in fact make out with her, in no way was Scott being worried just because of the sexuality in the scene. Ramona and Roxy had unfinished business, he was worried it would ruin his and Ramona’s relationship…
💖💖💖
💜💜💜
💙💙💙
🏳️⚧️🏳️🌈🏴☠️
I’m not a pirate, my OCD just needed to fill that last gap n I’m nearly 200 episodes deep into One Piece. :P
I still don't know how to watch this because it's not on Netflix for me
pirate it
@@JimmyFallonUwU nvm I watched it 2 months ago
Wait, are Knives and Kim supposed to have gotten together in the anime??? Even knowing the history of their kiss in the franchise, I thought they were strictly platonic in that one.
@@sassafrass_studios I honestly see them as more so platonic. I feel like the heart in the background / the scene in general to me is them sharing a common bond with each other and opening up as people. They could be gay, but they could also just be friends. I mainly mentioned it in the video because I wanted to highlight how they made their bond not weird compared to the graphic novel
I only did it for the money #hustle #sigmagrindset
so true. good work my buddy ian
I never really portrayed the whole kim and knives kissing scene as fetishization, for me it seemed not as weird as everyone sees it, knives in that scene is still a confused and emotionally broken teenager and kim is just a broken person in general that is seen to be kinda into woman, and yeah people really do this kind of stuff while drunk its not really uncommon. I have to agree tho its still a bit weird for kim to go for it knowing she is responsible and also I don't like how they never really expanded into it at all, the scene was really useless and it didn't add much.
I just found your Channel but OH MY GOD KGATLW AN SCOTT PILGRIM ON ThE
SAME CHANNEL
yep! what can I say, I'm a big fan of gizz and scott
Kim making out with Knives is important for one reason. It shows that Kim is just as bad as Scott on her worst days. All of these people suck. That's the point. If you associate with one of them or like one of them then another it gives you something to look at by holding up a mirror to your shitty parts.
Unpopular opinion my favorite Scott pilgrim media is Scott pilgrim takes off
Not that I condone Knives and Kim's relationship (and especially not like it) either, but to be fair, Scott Pilgrim is set in Canada (which the creator is also from) and the age of consent there is 16. She may not be an adult yet, and has definitely not fully matured, it wasn't "illegal". The age of consent in America is 18, when you are an adult, but you finish maturing in your late 20's and feel like it should be higher in America too.
Would have been a better video if it were Scott Pilgrim vs Canada's age of consent laws