CBG19's Controversial Opinion on Stan Lee
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- Опубліковано 11 гру 2018
- ► CBG19 talks about the death of Stan Lee and tells her story of her interactions and how she feels about his legacy; The good the bad and the truth surrounding Stan Lee. Topics; Did Stan Lee take too much credit? Why did Jack Kirby and Stan Lee have a falling out?
►The Immortal Stan Lee a Low Fi Hip Hop Mix by Akira The Don:
• The Immortal Stan Lee|...
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Reference articles used in this video:
We Need To Stop Stan Lee’s Comic-Con Appearances
www.filmbuffonline.com/FBOLNew...
Polygon - Stan Lee's comics Legacy is embroiled in accusations, lawsuits and challenges.
www.polygon.com/2018/5/30/173...
The Daily Beast - Marvel Icon Stan Lee Leaves a Legacy as Complex as His Superheroes
www.thedailybeast.com/rip-sta...
The Marvel Method
stanmarvellee.weebly.com/the-...
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I met Stan several years ago, he was in his late 80s. He came to help raise money for a local library in Ohio. He gave a presentation at the college next door (we had to pay for ticket to hear him speak - but not much). After his presentation, he went next door to the library and signed 2 autographs for each person in attendance. He signed for over 5 hours. When it was our turn, he would have talked forever to my group if it wasn't for his handler keeping the line moving. Through that meeting, I think he actually drew strength from meeting his fans and signing for them. I was a meeting I will not forget.
And that's what makes him The One Above All.
@svin wtf lol get a life, books are important.
@svin Libraries are important, as are the books in them. AS is health, but you know there are lots of health charities too... You dont really appear to have a very clear idea of how the world works. Its just fine to support things aren't the MOST important, we need a little of a lot of good things.
@svin u suck svin
Andrew Sarinana Jack Kirby’s the one above all
Tons of people seem to be tripping over themselves over CBG19’s “He was a man” comment, not realizing that in context she’s clearly talking about how he was just a man, a person, and not a literal god or without flaw or whatever that some people see/saw him as. It’s about remembering that nobody is perfect, that’s all.
Ya he had flaws is it possible that they were screwed over a bit by him maybe but he also gave a lot of credit to them as well and its vary true you have to think how much was him really wanting to be out signing things the last 5-10 years I would say
Wow people thought that? Y’all must be like 12-years-old.
@@347tester you sound really dumb actually
thats actually sad
It disturbs me anyone was stupid enough to take it any other way.
Ditko and Kirby will always be appreciated; But might I add, Bill Finger. He deserves a Spotlight as well. All creators should be recognized in my opinion.
Ditko became an Ayn Rand lunatic. His best work was clearly when he worked with Lee.
Give the Artist total freedom and you get George Lucas' Prequels, and Steve Ditko's "Mr.A" --a character so dull & obnoxious that Alan Moore's *parody* of said character (aka Rorschach) would become far more popular & iconic in the public's eye.
Kudos to you for bringing in Bill Finger. Not many people know about him, he needs his recognition.
@@saratov99 Rand was a genius? I'm sorry, high i.q. or not, she can't be a genius and have the beliefs she did. Genius implies that you are smart, she was just a megalomaniac.
Mike Cat thank you
Paradox Acres wrong
While it's true that Stan Lee took a lot of credit, he also GAVE a lot of credit. In the early days of comics, you only knew who drew it if the artist snuck a signature in, and you might not have known the writer at all. Stan made sure you knew who the friggin' colorist was, and put it right on page one.
Truck Yeah
It's true, he always insisted on calling himself co-creator and he often sang the praises of the artists in interviews.
@@MarkArandjus Yes, watch any videos of Stan Lee being interviewed by (often clueless) people on various TV appearances in the 70s. They always say 'YOU did this, and why do YOU do things his way?' and he always answers 'At Marvel WE do things this way, and the reason OUR comics are great is because WE blah blah blah.'
James Heath credit doesn’t bring an artist money, credit doesn’t entitle an artists to royalties for their creation, credit doesn’t give an artist any rights to their creations, but somehow Stan Lee the company guy that he is never had to deal with any of those pitfalls. Ironically
Tell that to Bill Finger.
At least Kirby and Lee were able to reconcile before both their deaths. Both were incredibly talented and it’s a shame he and Ditko couldn’t have the same closure. They’re both talented. It truly is the collaboration of all three of those brilliant men that gave us all these amazing icons of literature. Shame they’re all no longer with us.
They did have the same closure. Stan and Steve made peace with one another years before they died.
"He was a man".
Clearly she means "he was a human being with flaws and limits like all people".
Is she implying that all men are inherently evil? This was a bad choice of words from her.
@@rockabye274: you've never heard people use the term "man" to refer to "human beings"? Like Neil Armstrong saying "That's one small step for (a) man... ". SMH!!! SJW are out of control and out of their minds.
@@rockabye274 What? Man as in human, mortal, just some dude.
I guess people hear what they want to hear.
@@rockabye274 this is the single biggest straw man I've seen
My dad is 92 years old. Frankly, he loves getting out of the house and hanging with people. If those people worshipped him? Dang... he'd do it every day. I'm only half joking. At that age, stopping is your enemy. At this point, I can only get him to the Senior Center 2-3 times a week. He's going to dances and hoping to get married, again!
He sounds great!
Lol reminds me of the Chappelle stand up special. "The THIRD time I met OJ Simpson..."
Lee only looms as large in public consciousness because he was a ruthless self-publicist. Look at his work away from Marvel and its all derivative work or just plain awful! Kirby however, came up with the Fourth World concept over at DC!
if karma is a thing then stan lee was extremely generous. living into his 90s and revered around the world is a pretty good life
This aged like sour milk...
Yeah, .. those last 4 to 5 decades on his own Stan Lee was just bursting with great creative ideas... oh wait.
Thanks for being real about Stan. He was great, but not perfect, and that's how the best heroes are made. Identifiable, and authentic, inclusive of flaws. Keep up the great work!
The magical pop culture definition of Karma is wrong. Karma means “action” or “doing”. It refers to the concept of if you act in a certain way then you can expect that in the future those actions will lead to consequences.
Bad shit just happens. M
Thank you for sharing this. The elder abuse is gross and no one wants to acknowledge it. It needs more light to prevent it happening again. When we see something say something.
As noble as raising awareness seems you can't prevent something from happening forever. Cynical man strikes again!
@@trevorreznik9881 ?
"Cynical Man, with the superpower to mutate every moment of levity into one of pondersome melancholia. All Cynical Man has to do is unleash his patented brand of crushing pessimism and the villain that is your happiness will be crushed into a mortal heap. Read the latest issue of Cynical Man now, where our hero crashes the birthday party of a terminally ill cancer patient just to remind the gentleman and his family and friends that his chance of survival is less than thirteen percent! Talk about a birthday gift you don't have to wrap!"
Great video. I appreciate the interview on the red carpet, and all the lil extras you do for this video. Really tells the story better. Appreciate it.
Lee did language and emotion, that's not there in Jack's writing. And the delegation originally came from he was given no money for personnel. Stan effectively recreated Cap from warmonger to peace lover.
Seems to me that Stan Lee is very much the face of marvel comics. With his cameos in marvel movies his legacy is secure. Of course it would be naive to think that he was single handedly responsible for everything great that came from marvel but I'm glad that this video was clear about what he actually did and how that fits into the bigger picture
This was THE BEST take on the Stan Lee / Jack Kirby discussion. Both were important and essential to Marvel and comics as an art medium, each on their own realm. Thing is that Kirby got fucked financially while Lee kept money flowing for him...
Thank you CBgirl19 for really knowing the history of comics, knowing the struggles of artists for decades, and for speaking truth into this.
As a man who’s only dream as a young boy was to be a comic artist, and knowing how the industry has treated my heroes, I’m so grateful for you expressing yourself about this. All we have when we’re gone is the impact we had, and the decisions we made good or bad.
This might have oddly been one of the most heartwarming videos I've seen about him post the worlds loss. The way you seem to take honest joy in him seeming to enjoy some of the clips is fantastic. Good job Danika, that makes you solid honest ppl.
Take a shot every time CBG19 says ‘Karmic’
Planned on getting drunk tonight, anyway
I was already drunk so now I'm dead.
@@hudsonhomann9640 Now this a guy who knows how to party
Marc Maron needs to play Stan Lee in a biopic. If he can get the accent down.
But who should play Jack Kirby?
You spelled Bryan Cranston wrong,lol
holy crap, long time listener, long time subscriber, I totally get what your saying about abusing a poor old man. AAANND I just moved to Los Angeles last year and totally get all the "big company" hate and all their shitty deals. So stoked you guys are keeping the show going! Big fan here keep preaching it!!
I agree with one exception: Tesla and Edison were more adversarial, unless that's what you're looking for.
So you had mixed feelings about him. He was a regular person with flaws and talents. No big deal in my opinion.
♡
SCREW THAT...HE FUCKED OVER JACK KIRBY AND STEVE DITKO...HE SAYS THEY DESERVE CREDIT AFTER WAY AFTER HE HAD HIS FULL AND OVERFLOWING FOR YEARS...HOW HUMBLE OF A SHAM MAN ....HOW NORMAL FOR AN OVER THE TOP EGOMANIAC ASSHOLE HE WAS WITH "NORMAL" FLAWS. LOL
He is still a hero to me. He showed that heroes could be flawed
the last time I met stan he was with todd McFarland at the calgary comicon, it was nice to see the two of them shaking hands. Stan did not seem to hold Todd's business decisions against him.... I even asked about the stuff that went down in the 90's an they just laughed about it.
I love Stan Lee he's one of my personal heroes. I loved the fact that he kept creating things till the end. I agree that Stan was a little bit of a shrewd business man, he became more of a Mickey mouse like character after a while in the sense that he became almost a symbol of comics rather then an actual person. I honestly am a little disappointed I personally never got to meet him (I know he probably shouldn't of been travelling at 90, but at the risk of being a slightly toxic fan it can be really cool to meet one of your heroes and by all accounts I've seen Stan was a pretty good guy especially to fans, he may have been forced to do long signings, but he never made that any fans problem, which I can only respect). I do think he probably put his name on a lot of stuff he had minimal actual input on, like there was a lot of things associated with him with the words "concept by" which basically means all he did was come up with the vague idea of it. I got the feeling he actually did do what he loved and I can respect that too. I remember seeing him lamenting the fact that his sight was going and it made it harder for him to read and as a writer that's like 90% of what you do. I do feel like Stan's biggest fault was he was a bit overzealous about himself or his work, like I never felt like he took credit for what he didn't do at least not most of the time, but when he did do something connected with it he wasn't going to understate it either. I mean his name was almost always at the top of a lot of things with his name on it even if he didn't do much. Though I do feel he has a legacy that is important, like disney, he may of not been the most decent guy, but he wasn't the monster some people make him out to be either.
I have never heard Stan say, or seen it written that he's ever taken sole credit for anything. As far as I can tell, he's always credited those he worked with. As for butthurt Alan Moore's comment: What Stan actually said was "Captain America was the first comic I wrote when I started in comics. Cap was created by 2 very talented guys, Joe Simon and Jack Kirby." He never claimed he created Cap, just that he was the first superhero he got to write for when he got into the profession.
seen here: ua-cam.com/video/aLYJP_duPxk/v-deo.html
Moore was talking about the book, not the documentary film.
"We even created a roster of new Avengers as time went by, additional members who were brought into the team-members like Captain America, Hawkeye, and The Vision."
Stan Lee, _Son of Origins of Marvel Comics_ pp 84, 1975
Lee meant he created the "roster" of characters which included the pre-existing Captain America. But you can see how someone who didn't know otherwise would read that as taking credit for the creation of Captain America, especially when there is no mention of the original writer. Was Lee such a bad writer that he couldn't express what he meant and so muddled that he forgot to credit the other writer, or was he deliberately using ambiguity?
Don't know why you have roster in quotes, when according to your own quote he says "we even created a roster....". So yeah, he meant roster, which is why he said it. Like seriously, context clues are something 4th graders learn.
BillyKidd To emphasise the ambiguity. Don't you see it?
LOL @@LughSummerson
Thomas Edison & Nickoli Tessla HATED each other PERIOD. Jack & Stan may have had differences but not like that. Also one thing about Edison & Lee one of them is DEFINITELY in Hell.
Probably the one that electrocuted farm animals for fun
@@Mysterey101 Puppies & that elephant.
yep, it was a bad analogy...
that edison tessla movie is in purgatory as a result of weinstein
If you researched the history of electricity there are many other contributors to electrcity that innovated more than tesla
I think a lot of anger towards someone like Stan came from the fact that a lot of creators from Stan's day ended up penny less. And I literally mean penny less, like living in shelters or in a single rooms cooking off hot plates and unlike someone like Neal Adams, who tired to help creators get the money they were owed, Stan always seemed to side with the big business. I think he did start changing his tune starting in the 90s but by then he'd pissed off a lot of the die hard fans.
Makes sense.
If you don't have the balls to criticise *Capitalism* and Billion dollar Corporations then you should at least not use Stan Lee as a scapegoat.
film79
Hasn’t he sued Marvel multiple times? Stan just seemed like the only one capable of fighting for his royalties.
Nice to hear something real and respectful. It seems people like to talk up only the positive in someone’s life and push the negative aside, but as “people” we are all both.
Acknowledging the negative doesn’t diminish the positive for me but rather paints a more rounded picture of who we really are.
Stan you truly were “the man”
Cheers Team19
I remember seeing a Iive interview with Stan Lee with Steve Edwards. He was promoting L.A.comic con and they asked him " stan you are 90 years old, you don't need to do this so why do you continue". And Stan responds " why should I ever stop doing this, when I am doing what I love" . I can't never find that interview, but it really made me think Stan did wanted to continue being in the comic book world until he passes. Yes he was a business, and maybe he did took so much credit, but he kind of needed to in order to make the marvel universe grow the way it did.
He did say that if steve ditko would consider co-creator of spider-man, he will consider him co-creator of spider-man. He did not think that that steve is the co-creator.
@Vicodyn Stan lee thought he is the creator of those characters
its amazing the lengths people will go to maintain the Stan Lee Bullshit..
X-men was also my doorway into the world of comic books.
Chris Claremont made the X-MEN what they are now.
Besides he created more X-MEN characters than Jack Kirby and Stan Lee did in that comic.
Did you know that?
@@toyhunter2903 Indeed
Denise Mina was my doorway into the world of comic books
This is the only genuinely thoughtful and introspective retrospective on Stan's life. Well done.
I was too broke too get a pic with him at last years comic con :( but it was still cool to see him.
The godfather of comics died. He wasn't perfect. Kirby and Ditko didn't feel treated fairly. Alan Moore complained about it. The list goes on. But he was the pillar on which Marvel grew into a giant. Without Stan Lee there is no Marvel. He did some bad, but he did a lot more good. He was Stan "The Man". Shortly after hearing the news I went back to reading some comics and then I watched the scene in Spiderman II where Spidey saves the train and then breaks down, and the people carry him through the train and look at him in awe and one man says "He's just a kid." The scene made me cry. That is a big part of Stan Lee's legacy. He gave superheroes humanity.
@@followthewhiterabbit2549 Marvel wouldn't be around with either. And CB19 actually made a brilliant point in that Stan actually sold the product and marketed it into the juggernaut it is. Just because an idea is hot does not mean it will sell. That was hard work Stan put in. That and...y'know...writing the books...
@TheBrabon1 Promoting is selling the product tho.
@TheBrabon1 Well then that would make it somebody else's fault that it didn't sell.
Love the insight and anecdotes in this video. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on Stan Lee. One thing that I wanted to mention tho... Captain America was conceived in 1940 and appeared in a comicbook for the first time in 1941. Stan Lee was born in 1922, so that would have made him closer to 18 rather than 12 as Alan Moore suggested. It’s not inconceivable that a 18-year old might’ve concocted such an idea. HOWEVER, I think Joe Simon along with Jack Kirby are the credited creators. If Stan Lee ever said he co-created Cap, he may have been referring to resurrecting him for THE AVENGERS in the 1960s.
He didn't. Only thing Stan ever said regarding Cap, was Captain America was created by Joe and Jack and it was the first comic they had him write for.
Stan Lee always joked about getting credit for everything, even in the old 60's books. I don't think he ever tried to say he actually did it all. He definitely seemed to be the brains/orchestrator of the operation. Everything about the Marvel Super Heroes and their colorful personalities screams Stan Lee. Of course, it was those legendary artists who brought them all to life and probably contributed more than we will ever know to make it all possible, but the vision of Marvel Comics seems to be Stan's. In turn, he himself had to have been inspired by the original Timely Comic superheroes, most notably Captain America and Sub-Mariner, who were seamlessly introduced into the Marvel Universe.
Ever the contrarian.
Tho I met Stan Lee, about a year ago. I got a signature. But she’s right he wasn’t animated a year ago, so I’m not gonna say he was abused but maybe he was overworked or worked too hard. I couldn’t imagine it was about the money, so yeah....CBG19 has a valid point there.
He was big self-promoter and liked attention so he got a lot more fame than the other Marvel giants, no doubt, especially among people who don't read comics. John Lennon and Steve Jobs are also people that get too much credit, that said you wouldn't have the Beatles and Apple without them. Same with Stan Lee and Marvel.
BTW, Lee DID play a part in the shaping of Captain America, not as the creator, but he was contributing on early issues, officially as early as issue 3, and also he was 18 when Cap was created, Moore has his history wrong.
Exactly. Stan had an important role in developing Captain America and certainly in the more modern version of the character. Btw, people were always asking him at conventions for his favorite Marvel character that he created. I never once heard him say it was Captain America, although he had hundreds of opportunities to do so.
A very nuanced opinion, and I love it! I also love this new format of your being interviewed.
Um, where can I see that court case? (May have missed it in the description box 👀)
I don’t normally comment but your information needs clarification if not verification. If anybody would like to get the full story, please do research and reading. There’s no one sentence or video that’s going to explain away a life lived for 95 years and also co-produced a multi-billion dollar industry. First, Stan Lee hired a bunch of artists back to Marvel who lost their jobs during the comic book witch hunt of the 1950's and gave them credit throughout Marvel's classic run of the 1960's AND respected them throughout his life. Secondly, his wife, Joan who kept most of his life together and deserves a lot of credit for the creation of the Marvel Universe as well, died in 2017 and his personal life, daughter’s financial issues and other factors contributed to the last year of his life becoming a tabloid mess and not some “Karma” for how he treated artists. The only “Karma” IMHO happened to Stan is that he didn’t take care of personal issues himself and relied heavily on Joan to work on ALL those problems instead of working together and he reaped some neglect for neglecting to take care of past mistakes. Thirdly, fans of X-Men should thank Len Wein, Chris Claremont, Gil Kane, Dave Cockrum and John Byrne for saving the group from going the way of the Doom Patrol, into utter obscurity. The X-Men was on the verge of being cancelled and those guys saved the title and THEN we have the great X-Men run that turned into the movies (for better or worse). Finally, Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko and other artists were just that: Artists. They were not businessmen. Most artists during that time were not because it took a lot of work and mental capacity to be a writer, artist and/or entrepreneurial. Stan Lee was writer, businessman, marketing and advertising genius, etc. and DID NOT OWN Marvel Comics which is a common misconception. When Stan rose up to editor and moved away from the day to day writing work, he offered Jack to be Art Director and Jack CHOSE to be an artist and work hard. His family can attest to his work ethic. Nothing wrong with that but that’s the life he chose. In the 1990's, the artists who formed Image Comics were a combination of both men and set the standard going forward of Artists / Writers wearing many hats. I suggest the following Reading and Watching to get the full story and not just say “I’ve heard things….” - BOOKS to READ: The Secret History of Marvel Comics: Jack Kirby and the Moonlighting Artists at Martin Goodman's Empire /// Marvel Comics: The Untold Story /// Slugfest: Inside the Epic, 50-year Battle between Marvel and DC /// Excelsior!: The Amazing Life of Stan Lee // Amazing Fantastic Incredible: A Marvelous Memoir /// Kirby: King of Comics (Anniversary Edition) /// Men of Tomorrow: Geeks, Gangsters, and the Birth of the Comic Book // Stan Lee: The Man behind Marvel // Joe Simon: My Life in Comics /// ++ VIDEO: With Great Power: The Stan Lee Story /// Jack Kirby: Story Teller Documentary /// Stan Lee's Mutants, Monsters & Marvels: Creating Spider-Man and Here Come the Heroes /// Robert Kirkman's Secret History of Comics - If after reading and researching all of that and you come away with the same opinion, I’ll commend you for your effort.
Beautiful post! 'Nuff said!
@@rockabye274 Thank you!
@TheBrabon1 Change what facts? Create what history? There are no losers here. Again "There’s no one sentence or video that’s going to explain away a life lived for 95 years and also co-produced a multi-billion dollar industry." If you believe the book, Marvel Comics: The Untold Story (out of ALL the books and other research material I mentioned) is not YOUR suggested reading, that's fine but to accuse me of changing facts?? I don't believe you or anybody knows the TRUE story because we were not working at Marvel consistently from the 1940s to 1970s. That distinction goes to Stan Lee and maybe a handful of artists, writers, editors, etc. behind the scenes.
I think some of the backlash/controversy over MARVEL's Stan Lee's over-appropriating credit for a number of comic book superheros
stems from the long standing story of how DC robbed Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster from getting any credit for Superman for so many years.
It's a classic case of the Mandela Effect and how one story about the most prominent superhero got mixed up with stories about the most prominent superhero creator.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_lawsuits_by_Superman%27s_creators
i think it was great that Siegel and Shuster ended up getting some dough and creator credits but given what Superman became but they DID sign away their rights and they were not forced to do so. That's why the law never was on their side. There are many very popular folks in entertainment that signed away rights to their creations at the start of their careers that 20 30 40 years later, never got compensation. Lawfully. The only reason S&S got anything is because Supes became the most beloved character on earth and folks felt a little bad for them.
By the time I became aware of him and watched or listen to his interviews, I got to hear him tell the stories in a way where he would include the artists more. Like one where he talked about giving spiderman to maybe Kirby, I might be wrong on the artist he first approached, and it not being what he imagined and gave it to Ditko instead. I think that was him trying to spread the credit more realizing that while he did get on top, it usually comes at the cost of others in some way. And I also get not wanting to break fans expectations, and having created a very specific public persona that he would have to put on until it became natural for him. The idea being that any type of promotion they could get would be a good thing for the business for everyone was a solid reason especially when they were struggling. But these were times where comic's weren't intellectual properties like they are now. And the horrible deal that made Neal Adams leave the industry for a while was fucked up because they knew new creators would work for free to get to create characters in a universe they had fallen in love with as kids. Now the new owners know that it's better to just pay the people who are doing well what they are worth because the bad publicity will cost them more then just paying them. But I'm sure there will come out some horror stories about bad things going on since it's impossible to predict human behavior and it's factor in success.
He was no Bob Kane who from all the stories sounds like he not only wanted to be the Stan Lee of DC but also wanted to get credited with books he never touched at all. It's also hard to say what you would do in that situation, very few writers are like George RR Martin and by that I mean he's excited about more then the process of writing but also likes talking to other people about it publically. While fame is a commodity, it's not a commodity everyone wants to have, but it's also a weird process cause you want to first create something you enjoy, then you want other people to enjoy it. You just know that type casting or becoming an archetype of your given field is hard to get away from. And very few are great at more then 1 thing, we might have many different interests but like CBG19 says herself she does adopt a persona on camera. And while that persona does probably come out in regular life aswell, it's not unusual to be introverted when your doing something like that. Since you need alot of time to think things through if it's going to be more then just rambling that no one wants to watch.
What Alan Moore doesn't understand is confabulation. Some people, especially older people have bad memories - BUT THEY DON'T REMEMBER NOT REMEMBERING. Instead, they make up a story that sounds right to them, and then they remember that, and that is now their history internally.
I don't know how much Stan Lee was aware of it, but he might well have not been responsible for not telling the truth.
There are a lot of studies on false memories if people care to look further.
As far as being a creator I look at it this way, Stan and Jack Kirby and Steve Ditco
created Marvel characters. Ditco leaves and creates a few minor characters Kirby leaves goes to DC and creates a ton of characters many of which are still being used today and to a lesser extent Pacific Comics but by that stage of his life that weren't really the greatest characters but he was still being creative. Stan didn't really create much of anything else after that a couple of one shot deals but in all honesty nothing much. I'm not saying that Stan didn't do anything if you look at the writing there is definitely a difference between the books he scripted and the ones Jack or Steve wrote. But as far as the creative process Kirby and Ditco had it over Stan by leaps and bounds.
The only person who says Stan Lee is the only creator and has full credit over these iconic characters are the jealous people who envy him and his accomplishments and burning love from the fans.
Find me a single clip or written letter where Stan Lee says he is the SOLE creator of x, y, z. From all the clips I’ve seen, or soap boxes I’ve read, he always said he’s the co-creator of most of these characters, and even recently he spoke with High regard of Kirby and Ditko. Yeah, maybe Kirby got denied some royalties by Marvel in the long run, but this isn’t something that was created by Stan, big companies were screwing artists and creators over up until the 90’s until Image Comics got created where the people get full credit for the characters they create.
Stan Lee did what he loved best, and that is being the front runner and arbiter of comic book medium and basically pushed and pulled in whatever direction he could in order to make it mainstream, but most importantly he was very giving to his fans, and I think CBG19’s take that people who share selfies with Stan are somehow shitty for doing that is totally stupid. People just want to spread the love that Stan the Man Lee had for his fans, and he truly was something special when it came to giving his all to the fans. He wasn’t a disgruntled crazy cook like Alan Moore, nor a total wacko like Frank Miller, or even a shut in Steve Ditko, he ALWAYS had time for his fans and that lo
ve was recuperated and kept him going.
Watch Kevin Smith’s Eulogy to Stan Lee, and his personal recollections and stories with him, and you will realize just what a truly remarkable icon we’ve lost.
Kirby also said he got the idea for the Incredible Hulk by a news story about a woman picking up a car that had pinned her kid, when in fact Stan Lee essentially based the Hulk on the werewolf legend, changing at night and due to moon phases. Anger turning Banner into the Hulk came much later in the comics.
The thing about Stan, is that he made the work of other people better. Kirby initially wanted Silver Surfer to just be a mindless robot, but Lee made him into a space-faring philosopher. You can look at every single one of his collaborators and see their work AFTERWARDS, Kirby certainly made visual marvels with his New Gods for DC, but honestly, it was kinda lacking that depth and pazas that his earlier work had, like, a lot of those characters had weird triangle shapes and cyllinders with no purpose on them, and it all was just so busy, and weren't streamlined. Steve Ditko basically became an Ann Rand fanatic and wanted to do weird political characters, but John Romita Sr. went on to have a long and fullfilling career because he stuck around.
@@MADVILLAIN669 There is a documantary here on UA-cam, named in search of Steve Ditko, or something like that. There Stan Lee says many times that for him the creator of a character is the guy with the idea, not the illustrator that can be anybody.
TheVetoSkreeemer
There is a difference between ‘concept-creator’ and a ‘co-creator’ Co-creator helps you bring out the most out of an idea, however without a solid base concept, it really doesn’t matter, because you can polish a mediocre idea as much as you want, but an Aynn Rand pseudo-intellectual character will never be as relatable as an everyday shlub who got his powers and misused them for personal gain, only later to realize the responsibilities and moral dilemmas it brings to his life. THAT was all Stan Lee.
that made no sense "im jealous of him so i give him MORE accolades" if you hate someone you destroy their legacy and bring up all the bad stuff they did..........
I 100% agree with you comic book girl 19. Thank you for being honest and not sugar coating it. I love Stan Lee, I am probably one of the biggest fans around. I have been to comakazie and been in the lines and watching the mans demeanor as he sat there signing away. I recall feeling unset and disturbed by the demand from the fans for his signature. I remember it being very cookie cut and not really any connection, just next, next. Need less to say after waiting in line for a good hour I got discussed, not for waiting but for the lack of sensitivity within the environment. It was my last chance to meet Stan in 2016 before my last deployment. He was indeed an amazing co creator, a head of his time as a entrepreneur, and by far the best promoter of his time. That said, I then recollect the moment I found out about Jack kirby and fell inlove with not only his artistic abilities but his creative mind. To be completely honest I learned to read from these two extraordinary men. My biggest pet peeve was the treatment of Jack kirby from both companies and for Marvel Stan definitely could of stepped in and said something and helped but he didnt.
You made a very interesting point about his karma and in a way its ironic to think about it, Stan signing away on anything even if he had little to no input in it. The thing is Stan lee out lived them all and he was the last face of a long legacy. I hope one day I will get to meet these two men who had such a influence in my life. Great video thanks again!
thank you for this well informed, nuanced perspective of stan the man. i loved the video at the end of him acknowledging his collaborators. perhaps he didn't give them enough credit, but he damn sure gave them a paycheck and a platform. EXCELSIOR!
X-Men and Star Trek the Next Generation changed my life more than any educator or spiritual leader ever could.
R. I.P. to the great Stan lee!!! One of a kind
Thanks for the video =D
You lost me whit the karma argument, i think its a sad life when you only focus in the bad things
😂 Maybe Tyson is the Kirby to Danika's Stan! 🤣
🤣
A quick word on karma: the idea that somehow the universe punished Stan for his prior business behavior may seem tempting. I tend to think it is more a case of creator protections and attitudes toward intellectual property evolving to point wherein, the creators had not only more pull but went and either a) created their own entities with mixed success or b) used competition to get more of what they wanted. Stan's was a different time and unlike the people who took advantage of him, Stan was no bottom feeder. He didn't deserve what he got.
Okay, I was on board with everything you said, but I'm a little confused about the life energy thing. Are you saying, that writing autographs is physically taxing (because I totally believe that it is, as any handwriting for an extended peroid would be)? Or are you saying that you're actually putting some sort of...mystical...energy into the object your signing?
Well balanced and remembered! I think fittingly meta how Tyson provides an excellent collaborative voice to this video~
“Who’s the Steve Jobs that did everything?” You’ve got to be kidding! Steve Jobs has taken credit for a ton of other people’s work! Get real.
Stan didn't create Cap....but he did start contributing stories to him on issue 3.
Yeah he didn't create him but he revitalised him when he brought him back in the 60's.
@@treygoldsworthy1402 And he tried to revitalize him and Namor back in the 1950's Atlas age too....but he was an early adopter even in the original run. His name popped up a lot in the 40s Cap comics. Most people kinda act like his career started in the 60s, but he was probably one of the last surviving silver age comic book men.
How do you feel about the upcoming Marvel retcon of Dark Phoenix?
Great video
I agree with CBG 19 about not wanting to do what everyone else is doing. But at the same time we are part of one species and we have to " join the crowd" every now and then. It's appropriate to display your pics with Stan Lee. Some fans find it therapeutic so you might just be helping. And lastly....anyone that's ever read a Marvel comic knows Stan Lee didn't do everything. We still love him. When I think of the X-men I think of Chris Claremont. With Silver Surfer I think of Jim Lee. Marvel is a collaboration business but Stan Lee was the voice of it.
It's completely appropriate to display the picture with Stan. His relationship with the fans was a huge part of his legacy.
However it is kind of questionable if you for some odd reason honestly believe that it is wrong, but then choose to do it anyway.
Ya get what I'm saying?
Silver Surfer = Jim Starlin
I don't love him. He's screwed over way too many people way too many times.
nope
I don't agree with the notion that "we have to" do anything except eat, drink, crap, and sleep. I also don't feel the need to go out of your way to go against the crowd for the sake of doing so. Not everything that the crowd follows is inherently bad and undesirable. However, it's good to be able to think for yourself, not get trapped into group think, and following all of their trends. Especially when it's a stupid, ignorant waste of time, money, and effort when you can be doing something more worthwhile and productive.
Controversial? No way - this is pretty much exactly the way I've thought of him too. He's the Steve Jobs to Kirby's (and many other artists') Steve Wozniak.
I feel like the turning point in Stan's health and demeanor was the death of Joanie. Ever since his first appearance following that, he seemed really tired and drained.
Yes. Before his wife passed away he was still very energetic and lively like he had always been but when his wife died, his health quickly deteriorated.
I love listening to Comic Book Girl 19 philosophize. That's why I'm a patron on Patreon.
R.I.P STEVE DITKO!
"Nobody cared, the Spotlight on Stan Lee is too bright and doesn't let us see beyond our noses"
- Millenials and Marvel fanboys
It's nice to hear someone other than me not pooping on Stan Lee while praising Jack Kirby. One thing that has always really irked me about the Kirby only folks is if you read old Kirby interviews he poops all over Joe Simon saying he was a non-contributor & for me, I think maybe the over crediting of Stan Lee is a karma thing about that.....
Jack didn't "poop" all over Joe Simon, he said Joe handled the business side of things mostly and helped Jack a lot because he was a simple kid from the slums with no business or law acumen, now Jack did claim some stuff that wasn't true (like "creating" Spider-Man and how Jack claims Stan wrote everything as well as drew it at 60's Marvel), but he also said this stuff in his late 70's and said in interviews regularly his memory wasn't so good, that's why he had his wife Roz sit in for interviews, because she'd remember things or correct him when he was wrong.
Where can I see the court case video? I want to hear how Avengers would outlast Justice League
In regards to Stan Lee's boundless energy, he may have just been one of those people that enjoys being around other people and entertaining. My grandfather was the same, he worked until he was 90 and was always meeting friends. He loved making jokes and being 'on'.
The only thing that annoys me are people calling him The One Above All when that was always meant to be Jack Kirby, at least that was my understanding.
I agree with you!
But both are important for Marvel Comics in different ways. Without each other there would be no Marvel Comics.
Jack did the product, Stan Sold it.
"Nuff Said" ;)
Not gonna say Karma doesn't exist, but chalking everything up to karma is lazy.
Good on you for having the courage to put your observations out there and back them up. Nobody is perfect.
I saw the title of this video and was fully prepared to put the hate on. However, after watching it, I was very impressed. The video gives a balanced view of the man. Wonderful, great...but there were some flaws there. I love that you mentioned Jack Kirby and discussed how he didn’t get enough credit for his work. Wish you could have mentioned the Steve Ditko controversy! Maybe next time. As far as the reference to elder abuse - look up all of the articles about the people who were warring over his life and estate towards the end of his life. It’s very sickening. There are a number of prominent articles that talk about how people were trying to take advantage of him as he declined. Having said all of that - I’m glad he went out with warm feelings for him and his universe.
lol dumbass
I agree totally with this video.We should all remember Stan Lee as he really was.Not a good but a great man with human flaws.A great retrospective.
Was Stan Lee a great collaborator? Name one great project Stan did, without Kirby or Ditko. Just name one.
Stripperella
Ravage 2099 lol
I normally just think you’re annoying
But this video... I 100% agree with you.
Not a lot of people understand the idea of karma.
Not a lot of people want to admit things about Stan Lee. But there was a documentary where he does admit to taking more credit than he deserved. I can’t remember it but it was on Netflix a few years back. In it he even admits that most of his creations were just named after sound effects. But then he got guys like ditko and Kirby who had these ideas/sketches that they showed him and that’s how he got a lot of the heroes today, adding to their already done ideas. There’s a part where he talks about how he wanted to create a character like the shield, so he had one of the artists draw up the character and he decided to add the name captain to it. I never knew of the Allen Moore clip but Stan has had a history of taking characters and ideas, a history everyone seems to just gloss over.
His competitors did it too.
But if I recall at the time there was no laws or codes for fictional characters in the comic book medium (acknowledging creators/artists). Those laws only came after the Wild West era of Stan Lee’s early years.
It’s only in his later years did he become more humble. After he stopped being the head of marvel (almost running it to the ground) his whole stance and demeanor changed. Like a lot of the videos or comments that acknowledge it being a collaboration, those only exist where Stan is an old man.
Regardless good video
Comic book girl.....
I will refer you to an amazing documentary about Bing Crosby. You are quite literally my hero. I am proud to say a phenomenal woman (the likes of which i pray my daughter grows up to be) can be a voice in our comic book community.
You have made me think critically about my hero. I am Marvel through and through; and you made me remember his humanity. Better yet, you made think critically about the humans who surrounded my hero. In his elder years, he seemed "younger" than when he started. People like you help me tell his story more honestly. Reach out if you wish to ever have another in your ranks. We are here......
So...a lot of the "Stan was a cheat" narrative sounds like a lot of telephone games.
People (such as Alan Moore, but also others) take instances of Lee speaking a bit out of turn or something he wrote out of context, couple it with his financial success, and conclude he was a shady figure who took all credit for collaborative work. Then that word gets around, people take statements at face value, and it becomes gospel.
Meanwhile, even the end of this video shows Lee acknowledged nothing he did was in a vacuum. His artists deserve as much credit and accolades as him.
Could he have done a better job at ensuring his co-creators got better royalties for their work? Yes. But even there, we need to look at tge whole context. In the case of Ditko, Lee tried, but Ditko was so up Ayn Rand's ass he made he made everything impossible. Like this video even says, Jack Kirby didn't like the spotlight, whereas being a public figure is what made Lee wealthy not just writing comics.
But, from all I can gather, he wasn't the monster Moore and others make him out to be. He could have done MORE to ensure an equal outcome for his artists, but he wasn't a thief. There is an ethical difference.
That image should go to Bob Kane. He was a real sonofabitch swindler.
Yeah...I've no idea why Bob Kane never gets the hate Stan Lee gets.
I mean, they've only _recently_ allowed Bill Finger credit for creating Batman.
@@paradoxacres1063 His biggest flaw I can see is he was a capitalist. He accepted the money and accolades he was presented instead of saying "Yes but what are my collaborators getting, and how can I use my position to ensure they get a fair share?"
It's a flaw, definitely. In his position, it would be nobler to go that extra mile in the name of creator equity. But a far cry from being a cheat or thief. Especially considering he would publicly acknowledge and praise his collaborators by name and nearly every conversation.
@@jacob_ian_decoursey_the_author there is nothing reale capitalist about what he did, also alan moore never really acted like he was a monster, i do agree with everything else but saying that moore saying somehing kinda negative is him making stan out to be a monster is wrong
I had the pleasure of meeting, getting a picture and getting an autograph from Stan Lee at 2017 Emerald City Comic Con is Seattle. Spent the entire day in line to see Stan. Got there when they opened and got in line. 4 hours in line they paused so shuffle Stan off to the photo shoots people paid for, including myself. Luckily, I had my wife there and she staying in the line for the autographs, which cleared out a bunch when he left to take pictures. Well I got my picture came back in line for the autograph with the wife unit. Stan's handler comes up and says Stan is tired and needs a short nap behind the curtain and a drink. Asks is we all mind and we all say we don't. Stan comes and goes lays down. The handler starts to keep us busy with trivia and such. Stan is correcting him on some things from behind the curtain. When Stan comes out, he is his energy bunny self we all see. The handler gives us the ground rules to get the autographs. We all get out few secs talking and getting the autograph then we are shuffled out.
Long story short, he gets sick and he cancels the NYC comic con visit which was to be his last. Then in 2018 we hear of the bad situations around Stan etc....
I am thankful, I got to see his while I could.
I'm happy for you. I would have loved to meet him.
Wish I knew what show that was. I'd love to see that clip at the "courtroom"
Nicely done ✔
the early Marvel books were oozing with stan's personality. its impossible to say that he wasn't a huge component of their success. Also, it was work for hire for stan too. he never owned any characters and he had to take marvel to court for what he got. steve ditko they mailed a check and he refused to cash it. stan always praised jack kirby.
This isn't a clickbait title because, today, nuance is controversial.
Someone calling their own video controversial is the most blatant example of click baiting possible. Justifying it by claiming "everything's controversial now!" has nothing to do with an attention seeking title.
No.
That part on the red carpet with Stan Lee and James Gunn didn't suck and you were happy to be on the sidelines. A great moment and it brought a little tear of joy to my eye.
This is my first time seeing CBG19 in this format and I have to say, for someone that I find to be quite intelligent and very passionate about what she does, this was very disappointing. I support her right to have and share her opinions on anything but this just came off mean and selfish. Kudos to the other person on the microphone reeling things back in to focus. Issues about the company vs. Stan Lee as a human being should have been separate shows entirely. Thanks for sharing.
I mean it's not controversial if it's the true. Most people in the comic book industry know all these stories but they also acknowledge that he was the best selling man on comics and that he hyped them and made them as prized as they are today. I think that the good outweigh the bad in his case and as the last clip showed he really wanted to clarify his role and the artists role in all this.
What was Stan supposed to do? Should he have given an Oscar speech detailing exactly who did what every time he made an appearance somewhere? Besides, you can't stay out of the public eye if someone else is appearing everywhere constantly spouting out your name and credits. Kirby was mad because he couldn't have it both ways.
TheBrabon1 you can't get through to the people that just want to know him as his public face who "created" their now boring culture rather than realise what a shitty person he was
Arlo Steiner The problem is marvel for pushing the narrative. They use movies to ensure people don’t know the truth
Stan had great ideas and was a wonderful face for Marvel. It's a shame that it took years for others to get proper credit but Stan did try to rectify that later. He's going to be missed dearly.
You are the realest comicbook girl out there. Keep up the good work.
CBG19 you're free to have your own opinions on Stan Lee (I partially disagree with them but that's fine) but I would caution you on one point -- Alan Moore is certifiably nuts, so I would not put much stock in his opinions on anything ever.
Well, Stan Lee was a WRITER, not an artist.
That is a fact!
L337 Happosai. Yes Alan Moore is a loon. Some of his claims are also lies and hyperbole at best.
@@jjrbarnettEverybody lies, even Stan Lee my friend ;)
TheBrabon1. Okay so you had to make fun of me to make a point? Fine.
I know Lee was exaggerating and possibly a pack of lies. Unlike Moore, Lee was actually part of the Bull Pen.
I read that Joe Simon was proud of Lee’s work on Captain. Also Patricia Highsmith and Mickey Spillane we’re writing for Marvel at the time, Just FYI. From what I have read the real beef was not so much with Lee but the Martin Goodman. Martin Goodman was the guy that would sign the rights away. I do think Lee would put company over employees. He could be a company man.
As for Alan Moore, he is a wonderful writer but his opinions are just that. No more or less valid.
TheBrabon1. Regarding Lee and the Captain, Lee did write the Captain through the 40s, 50s and 60s. He may not have been a lie just his glamorous perspective.
This is excellent content.
The cort case was where I found this channel!
Hey, How can I hear your Avengers vs Justice League debate?
Stan Lee was given credit long before he started taking credit. I've always looked at his taking credit as his way of embracing the Legend to help Marvel's brand.
There was no internet, information was very limited. Most people knew jack-shit about comics, and even less about their creators, so when Stan started getting credit he just went with it and kept going with it.
In the early 70s I started reading Spiderman, when it was still colorful pictures of Superheroes with chicken-scratch in speech balloons to me, and I've always known Stan and Jack created him together.
Stan took credit when people gave it to him. It was all part of the Generalissimo playing his part.
I don't think it's really a controversial opinion. It's obviously to many the poor man was used for his name to make money for marvel and increase profit to the company.
great stuff, love the new hair color. looks good on her.
What Stan lee brought was an attitude, a tone, that people LOVED. Thats what made me feel in love with it, that was the evolution from DC.