Great video Jay! Always impressed by your ability to break more complicated concepts down into easily understood ideas. I'm definitely going to borrow the pogo stick analogies for my patients.
Great video! More “training” shoes are beginning to include these foams but without the plate. In your opinion, could training regularly in compliant cushioning reduce our own elastic recoil over time? I’ve also developed haglund’s deformities and noticed more pro getting surgery for this. Do you think there’s any relation to super shoes?
Hi - glad you found this helpful. The BEST thing you can do for your elastic recoil is to do strength and power training to optimize your limb stiffness and force production to improve your run economy. Putting targeted work into your body will yield gains far and above any shoe! Some of the new un-plated compliant foams work well, and others don't. It's a new frontier, and tuning them matters. With respect to Haglunds - those changes take many many years to develop.....super shoes haven't been around long enough to blame them -ha! the reason more pro's are getting surgeries for these is because the surgical techniques (when needed) have improved significantly to allow people to return to high level running successfully.
Hi - I'm part Sicilian, so speaking slowly is not something I'm good at! FYI - you can SLOW down the video speed on UA-cam if its helpful - sorry, but I'm trying - ha!
In a marathon build right now and just bought the Adidas Pro 3 for the race. Decided to test them out in a 5k race for the first run... strained my calf muscle! 5 days later I'm feeling better, but it definitely knocked me out for 3 days and I'm still not back to my hard training. Should have eased into them more gradually.
Hi Paul - Great question....but VERY COMPLEX, as it depends on the issue that is CAUSING their achilles overload to begin with. Overload to the achilles can be caused by: a) torsional instability in the foot, ankle that places the achilles in a longer position - for these people super shoes would be a VERY BAD choice! b) something called a positive ankle power, where the runner's gait tries to push too hard when the achilles should be absorbing (this is something we measure in the biomechanics lab, but cannot be seen with the naked eye - for these people, I'm actually not sure how they'd respond to this tech, as its more of a gait issue than a shoe issue. c) increased strain due to length issues - for these people, in theory, this tech MAY be slightly better.....as 1) the high toe spring results in less propulsive force needed from the achilles, and B) the research shoes that the shoe itself takes a lot of the strain....thus less is transferred to the achilles itself. But....due to the fact that the vast majority of runners have achilles tendinopathy due to A, I'd be caution here.....and would never recommend a runner training in these for their daily runs. Thanks for your question!
Hi Dylan - its not me "saying" .....the reality Is that the vast majority of these shoes out thee currently have been tuned to work best (meaning the most % improvement in running economy) for runners in the 115-135-140is lb range, while running the speeds that elites do (running speed matters a lot, as the rate at which you load these shoes matters). So think about it this way - the shoes were intended to be SQUISHED by runners in a certain weight range running certain speeds, and if you do that they they'll rebound at their intended rate and give you back your bounce. As I stated in the video (with references) that runners under that, or over that weight range, and slower, will get "some" result, but it will be less than the group they were engineered for. Said simply - we live in a reality where elites are given these shoes for free, and may in fact be getting the full 4% or whatever improvement in running economy. And in the elite world, that 4% can be not just the difference between 1st and 2nd, but running with the lead pack or being off the back. On the flip side, these shoes are VERY $$$ -and people love to model the elites....I've been shocked at the number of runners I've worked with who are well outside the target weight/speed range who buy these shoes because they think it will help them equally. They may get a small fraction of improvement (maybe .8-1.5%) but is that really worth it in the mid pack? That's for you to decide with your wallet..... I should note, again efforts by the industry have been targeted to hype up this tech and get results. The industry knows that the elites aren't buying these shoes, but the weekend warriors are. In the mid-term ahead, you are going to see companies release models of super shoes tuned more for the masses so people in different weight and speed ranges can get more from this tech. Great question - thanks!
Seems to me the next step like you say is just like snowboards ... Get a weight range for super shoes and actually put it on the stats for the shoe so when you buy it at least weight wise you will be in the range for it to be effective ... Like make a Vaporfly or Adidas pro for say 160 to 180lbs and one for 185 up ... Or even a shoe that's specific for the heavier runners who are still able to run good times
its a NB Sonic Fuel Core. They stopped producing it last year. As I stated in the vid, the reason I used it was that it also has a high amount to toe spring, to show that its not JUST toe spring that makes the difference.
You make a great point and one that I agree with. Standards exist for a reason: to allow us to compare performances objectively! FYI, in competitive swimming, all pools are EXACTLY the same length, and the water temp must be in specific temp ranges, and even the lanes lines must "dampen" the turbulence of water. This allows the performance to highlight the ATHLETE, and not other factors. In cycling, there are limits on bike position in the 1 hr TT, time trial events, and different regs in ITU and long distance triathlon to aim to keep things consistent. With super shoes, the running community's romance with "pushing the limits of human performance" has allowed the use of shoe doping. Now the governing body DID impose a restriction of 40mm of stack height as I mentioned in this vide to serve as a limit. But totally agree that its not ethical to compare performances in super shoes to previous performances .....as they indeed would have been. I'm not saying we should limit the use of tech in all sport, but I do agree that the records should specify this. Just as they do in track when they say a performance was "wind aided". Thanks!
Yes, but the genie is out of the bottle in cycling and swimming as well (the "super suit" era post-Beijing saw races where it took a WR to make the final). And, like World Athletics, the governing bodies of these sports looked for ways to rein in the tech, but it's still had a huge impact. Then, there's nutrition, supplements, recovery aids, altitude training and tents and, of course PED's, all of which improve performance in ways that can't be compared to previous eras. Not saying we shouldn't have standards and I'm in favor of the 40mm limitation but it's only going to get more complicated in this arena on a number of fronts as time goes by (I mean we aren't even consistent with hormone levels that constitute a female from one distance to the next and the gene editing era may be coming soon). As an aside, many footwear manufacturers pay no attention to the rules when designing some models (not for use in elite competition) and we've even crossed the 50mm threshold in a few instances (surely this is the ceiling?) A few years ago I saw a cartoon where a runner was lined up for the 100m wearing shoes with a stack height of 100m. Gun went off and he fell across the line for the win :)
Excellent explanation and insights! Thanks!
thanks for watching!
Great video Jay! Always impressed by your ability to break more complicated concepts down into easily understood ideas. I'm definitely going to borrow the pogo stick analogies for my patients.
thanks kindly! and thanks for all you do for your patients!
Great video! More “training” shoes are beginning to include these foams but without the plate. In your opinion, could training regularly in compliant cushioning reduce our own elastic recoil over time?
I’ve also developed haglund’s deformities and noticed more pro getting surgery for this. Do you think there’s any relation to super shoes?
Hi - glad you found this helpful. The BEST thing you can do for your elastic recoil is to do strength and power training to optimize your limb stiffness and force production to improve your run economy. Putting targeted work into your body will yield gains far and above any shoe!
Some of the new un-plated compliant foams work well, and others don't. It's a new frontier, and tuning them matters.
With respect to Haglunds - those changes take many many years to develop.....super shoes haven't been around long enough to blame them -ha! the reason more pro's are getting surgeries for these is because the surgical techniques (when needed) have improved significantly to allow people to return to high level running successfully.
always new and comprehensive insights Jay! PS. next time please speake a bit slower so it will be easier for non english native speaker like me 🙂
Hi - I'm part Sicilian, so speaking slowly is not something I'm good at! FYI - you can SLOW down the video speed on UA-cam if its helpful - sorry, but I'm trying - ha!
Key phrase: tissues adapt but it takes time!
YES! and runners......"time" does not mean 24-48 hrs....!
In a marathon build right now and just bought the Adidas Pro 3 for the race. Decided to test them out in a 5k race for the first run... strained my calf muscle! 5 days later I'm feeling better, but it definitely knocked me out for 3 days and I'm still not back to my hard training. Should have eased into them more gradually.
Hi Jay, what's your view on achilles loading rates in super shoes? Better for achilles issues or worst? Especially for insertional achilles.
Hi Paul - Great question....but VERY COMPLEX, as it depends on the issue that is CAUSING their achilles overload to begin with. Overload to the achilles can be caused by:
a) torsional instability in the foot, ankle that places the achilles in a longer position - for these people super shoes would be a VERY BAD choice!
b) something called a positive ankle power, where the runner's gait tries to push too hard when the achilles should be absorbing (this is something we measure in the biomechanics lab, but cannot be seen with the naked eye - for these people, I'm actually not sure how they'd respond to this tech, as its more of a gait issue than a shoe issue.
c) increased strain due to length issues - for these people, in theory, this tech MAY be slightly better.....as 1) the high toe spring results in less propulsive force needed from the achilles, and B) the research shoes that the shoe itself takes a lot of the strain....thus less is transferred to the achilles itself. But....due to the fact that the vast majority of runners have achilles tendinopathy due to A, I'd be caution here.....and would never recommend a runner training in these for their daily runs.
Thanks for your question!
What would you day is the "ideal" weight range for super shoes? What weight categories someone ss a heavy or light runner?
Hi Dylan - its not me "saying" .....the reality Is that the vast majority of these shoes out thee currently have been tuned to work best (meaning the most % improvement in running economy) for runners in the 115-135-140is lb range, while running the speeds that elites do (running speed matters a lot, as the rate at which you load these shoes matters). So think about it this way - the shoes were intended to be SQUISHED by runners in a certain weight range running certain speeds, and if you do that they they'll rebound at their intended rate and give you back your bounce.
As I stated in the video (with references) that runners under that, or over that weight range, and slower, will get "some" result, but it will be less than the group they were engineered for.
Said simply - we live in a reality where elites are given these shoes for free, and may in fact be getting the full 4% or whatever improvement in running economy. And in the elite world, that 4% can be not just the difference between 1st and 2nd, but running with the lead pack or being off the back. On the flip side, these shoes are VERY $$$ -and people love to model the elites....I've been shocked at the number of runners I've worked with who are well outside the target weight/speed range who buy these shoes because they think it will help them equally. They may get a small fraction of improvement (maybe .8-1.5%) but is that really worth it in the mid pack? That's for you to decide with your wallet.....
I should note, again efforts by the industry have been targeted to hype up this tech and get results. The industry knows that the elites aren't buying these shoes, but the weekend warriors are. In the mid-term ahead, you are going to see companies release models of super shoes tuned more for the masses so people in different weight and speed ranges can get more from this tech.
Great question - thanks!
Seems to me the next step like you say is just like snowboards ... Get a weight range for super shoes and actually put it on the stats for the shoe so when you buy it at least weight wise you will be in the range for it to be effective ... Like make a Vaporfly or Adidas pro for say 160 to 180lbs and one for 185 up ... Or even a shoe that's specific for the heavier runners who are still able to run good times
What is the NB shoe in the video?
its a NB Sonic Fuel Core. They stopped producing it last year. As I stated in the vid, the reason I used it was that it also has a high amount to toe spring, to show that its not JUST toe spring that makes the difference.
It's gotten ridiculous. All these marathon records being broken should have an asterisk
You make a great point and one that I agree with. Standards exist for a reason: to allow us to compare performances objectively! FYI, in competitive swimming, all pools are EXACTLY the same length, and the water temp must be in specific temp ranges, and even the lanes lines must "dampen" the turbulence of water. This allows the performance to highlight the ATHLETE, and not other factors. In cycling, there are limits on bike position in the 1 hr TT, time trial events, and different regs in ITU and long distance triathlon to aim to keep things consistent.
With super shoes, the running community's romance with "pushing the limits of human performance" has allowed the use of shoe doping. Now the governing body DID impose a restriction of 40mm of stack height as I mentioned in this vide to serve as a limit. But totally agree that its not ethical to compare performances in super shoes to previous performances .....as they indeed would have been. I'm not saying we should limit the use of tech in all sport, but I do agree that the records should specify this. Just as they do in track when they say a performance was "wind aided". Thanks!
Yes, but the genie is out of the bottle in cycling and swimming as well (the "super suit" era post-Beijing saw races where it took a WR to make the final). And, like World Athletics, the governing bodies of these sports looked for ways to rein in the tech, but it's still had a huge impact. Then, there's nutrition, supplements, recovery aids, altitude training and tents and, of course PED's, all of which improve performance in ways that can't be compared to previous eras. Not saying we shouldn't have standards and I'm in favor of the 40mm limitation but it's only going to get more complicated in this arena on a number of fronts as time goes by (I mean we aren't even consistent with hormone levels that constitute a female from one distance to the next and the gene editing era may be coming soon). As an aside, many footwear manufacturers pay no attention to the rules when designing some models (not for use in elite competition) and we've even crossed the 50mm threshold in a few instances (surely this is the ceiling?) A few years ago I saw a cartoon where a runner was lined up for the 100m wearing shoes with a stack height of 100m. Gun went off and he fell across the line for the win :)
Ouch.