What’s the Best Budget Japanese Stainless Steel? (AUS-10 vs. VG-10)
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- Опубліковано 20 лис 2021
- VG-10 and AUS-10 are some of the most popular stainless steels for those entering the world of Japanese knives. These being harder and higher carbide than their German counterparts offer significant increases in cutting ability and edge retention.
VG-10 made by Takefu in Japan, is used in knives across the price spectrum but can is most popularly encountered in Tojiros affordable DP line of knives hardened to about 60HRc. Shun also used this steel in their classic and premier lines until they switched to their proprietary VG-MAX.
AUS-10 made by Aichi in Japan, had typically been used in the mid-range of Japanese blades by companies like MAC, Masahiro and Kikuichi. Now many companies are using it in their budget offerings like Shun with their Kanso line, at 60HRc, and startups like Misen who use it exclusively in their direct-to-consumer knives.
At the end of the day the difference between these steel will come down more to how the knife is made in terms of heat treatment, geometry and how the user sharpens it, or lack thereof. If toughness is a major concern, AUS-10 may be a better choice. If absolute stainlessness is key then VG-10 may be a better option.
Hope you enjoyed!
-EP
Nonaffiliated Links:
Kikuichi: www.knifemerchant.com/product...
Tojiro DP: www.chefknivestogo.com/todpsa...
Two corrections!
1) I mixed up the labels for the edge retention chart. BESS scores are the y-axis and Feet of Cardboard are the x-axis.
2) VG-10 does have vanadium as can be clearly seen in the bar chart I put in but evidently didn't look at close enough. I would still expect AUS-10 to be slightly tougher than VG-10 due to its lower Cr amount but I can't guarantee that will actually reduce the Cr carbide volume to see that benefit.
Have you considered comparing R2/SG2 with VG-10?
@@andrewlan1799 appreciate the idea but I think that SG2 is a pretty clear improvement over VG-10 whereas AUS-10 wasn’t so clear how it landed.
Over multiple brands of knives I can say without a shadow of a doubt in my testing VG10 and AUS10 edge retention is neck in neck across the board (speaking of all quality knives with quality heat treats and even some that felt not so well done on the stones in each steel) I found aus10 to be tougher and more chip resistant then vg10 at shallower bevel angles. On the stones on the high quality well HTed knives I couldn't feel a difference between them on the stones now where I could clearly feel a difference between the steels is in the EDC type knives I tested, between Kubey aus10 and Coldsteel AUS10 and Spyderco VG10 but there is no doubt that spyderco is simply running the VG10 harder then Kubey and CS are aus10.. in the High quality cooking knives the AUS10 absolutely came up stickier and have higher perceived sharpness then VG10 on every single one of the high quality kitchen knives I sharpened and tested this held true with the CS aus10 over the spyderco VG10 as well with the Kubey aus10 feeling just like that VG10 but that CS took an absolutely sharper edge to me just like the kitchen knives.
Other then that performance wise and I ran all card board cutting tests 3 times on each knife. The extreme spread between the kitchen knives was 9% and the standard deviation was 4% so as far as I'm concerned edge retention is the same.
Spyderco VG10 out cut CS aus10 by 17% average over 3 tests and out cut kubey aus10 by 31% averaged over the 3 tests.
If heat treat quality and hardness are nearly equal the steels performance is so close that there is no difference. The perceived sharpness of the aus10 being higher consistently then the VG10 that I just assume is due to a finer grain structure because it was absolutely noticeable and it didn't matter if I finished them on my BBB 3k super vitrified diamond, on F1500 venev dragon, 15k Metallic bonded cbn or 16k Shapton glass.. the aus10s perceived sharpness to my fingers was noticeably sharper however that perceived sharpness difference was gone after just a 1 feet cut of card board.
I still have all the numbers, I have been looking for2 or 3 quality made (and hopefully optimal heat treated) 10cr kitchen knives to test to add along with my results and see where it falls and if there is a notable difference in it vs vg10 and aus10. I just have yet to find a two brands making what should be high quality 10cr knives that I would trust enough to spend money on for this test.
Really appreciate you taking the time to share that information. Good to hear that my findings are supported by some solid in depth usage!
Exceptionally well executed, very informative video!
Glad you liked it!
good one i wondered about this comparison ty
Glad it tickled your fancy!!
wow, this is a very good review, thank you!
Appreciate it!
Bro, you the man. You're teaching me about knife sharpness. I'm very impressed and I subscribed to your Channel. Keep up the good work man
Appreciate the comment!
Nice job. I was feeling the same about the two…you verified my feeling.
I had my suspicions going into it too. Now we know!
I like the ease of sharpening that comes with vg-10 . It’s almost like sharpening plain ,non stainless carbon steel. The AUS steels feel more “slippery” on the stone while the vg-10 seems to cut evenly. They both work great for their intended purposes providing the heat treatment is adequate and someone didn’t buff the edge to death. If the blade geometry is good, I can live with either one.
I can't remember if they feel that different or if you're feeling a difference in hardness between the two with that glassiness.
I do feel like AUS10 is a little easier to over polish the edge and have no bite. Like you said, live with either one
I liked this video. I appreciate Japanese knives, but I am confused by the many styles, brands, and steels used. Your videos have been helpful in trying to sort all this out. I appreciate that you bring an engineer's objective approach to knife reviews; so many others are subjective only.
I’d recommend just start trying stuff and forming your own opinion. Get a Tojiro DP Gyuto or Santoku from chef knives to go. See what you think and try something else based on the preferences you develop
Very good comparision - thank you!
Appreciate it!
If you need Aus 10 budget Japanese chef knife, I'll recommend Shimomura Murato Fine.
Soooooo cheap and simple handle, but made in Japan Sanjo Niigata.
Thanks!
Kind of curious how you got that extrapolation to the values below about the 150 g bess mark that was at the low end of your measured bess scores. Feel like I missed something. But anyway was interesting to hear the comparison as I have wondered about aus10. At least to me that magnification of the tojiro edge looked really consistent 👌
I didn't explain the math behind it but the actual ft of cardboard don't matter. It's just the comparison between the two. That said, I just divided the ft of cardboard cut by the change in BESS score over that footage. That gave a Ft/gram BESS. Then multiplied the change in BESS from the last cardboard point to the rope test by that factor to get the "equivalent feet of cardboard" for 2 cuts of rope. It's not indicative of real performance though, just wanted the chart to look nice.
On a similar note, I just noticed I mislabeled the axis! They're opposite, FML 😭. BESS is actually on the y-axis and cardboard is on the x-axis
@@EngineersPerspective701 ah, that clears it up, thanks.
Thx for the leg work playa
Hope it helps
great data! so then i'd say aus 10 is the better choice for pocket knives, hard use, etc (so long as you keep them dry)
My same conclusion! Even then I’d probably let the knife design lead me to a choice given two options!
i have a pain looking Chinese 'Kiritsuke' with a Aus-10 Core, from one of the few sellers who was well regarded, affordable and not some mall ninja Japanese you can find cheaper on aliexpress.. It is as if you crossed a thin Japanese chef knife with a Chinese cleaver... its choil is Japanese very narrow V, but its ridge is just thick. I've had several VG-10, 19c27 and SG2, Japanese made kitchen knives for years. And yeah for chopping, more risky stuff; Aus-10 is amazing. 98% as hard as a good Japanese made VG-10... however it is a lot tougher, more forgiving, hence its my narrow profile cleaver. However its heavy for it's size, so better steel for small pocket knives imho.
AUS-10, atleast mine is far too hard to hone like a proper cleaver steel anyhoo, it needs the strop and whetstone like my other harder knives.
i have both steels among my knives. I just found that my AUS10 tend to rust easier if I didn't wash it promptly after cutting acidic food. Both are easy and super fast to sharpen using diamond. Both can easily get razor sharp with free hand sharpening . For culinary task i prefer both steel compared to S35VN.
Same observation with AUS10. Never used S35VN in the kitchen, what knife you have it in?
@@EngineersPerspective701 my daily work knife, cold steel code 4. Last longer than Aus10 for cutting cardboard and pastic packaging. its takes longer to sharpen but easily maintain razor sharpness with strop
I was half-seriously looking at santokus under $150CAN last year, and the Tojiro DP seemed like the best choice, the only thing holding me back was the German-style handle. How has your experience with it been?
They’re fantastic for the price! The steel and geometry will outperform pretty much any German blade out there but are still relatively forgiving.
The handles are comfortable but usually have tiny little gaps where they meet the bolster. The real hotspot is the heel up to the bolster are almost unfinished. I take 220 grit sandpaper and hit that area plus the spine to round everything out.
There really isn’t a better option at the price honestly!
@@EngineersPerspective701 Thanks!
I noticed that with say Zelite or Dalstrong on their premium lines of knives their advertising both VG10 and AUS10 as the Core Cutting-edge on the Damascus layered blades which have nearly identical price points. So I thinking on mass production aspect its about what is available at a certain price.... Given the general quality & price of knives made with these steels they not Item's that get abused like a Chicago Cutlery Block set from Target... Great video to show the Small Differences because i had wondered how close they were in performance & edge retention
Glad you liked it!
They both end up in good quality cutlery but I think VG-10 just has a reputation and notoriety that make it more popular or high end feeling.
There may also be some notable manufacturing differences in grinding or heat treating that could effect the price. But that’s outside my knowledge base!
... they're* advertising both ... Also Zelite and Dalstrong are the exact same knives from the very same factory in China, just marketed under different brand names.
What is a really good sharpening stone you'd recommend for VG10 knives?
Best for the dollar are the Shapton Pro stones. 1K and 5K would be my recommendation. Add in a 320 grit if you’re needing to do reprofile or repairs.
For daily press i prefer Global knife (G-2 chef's knife)
Never had experience with Globals other than just handling them. Not the biggest fan of the looks and handle but the seem to have a decent thin grind and very nimble
@@EngineersPerspective701 Not as nimble as Shun or Miyabi, by my experience, since Global blades are much thicker. Even sharpened to the same angle as the former two (15°) you can feel Globals getting slightly dull after a only a few pounds of vegetables while the others keep their sharpness. Because of their softer steel (58 HRC vs 61 HRC) though, they are the safer choice for cutting hard-skinned food like pumpkin or watermelon or meat with bone in.
I am looking to buy a Keemake aliexpress knife and the price differs nearly 60 percent between aus10 and vg10 steel knives, aus10 being the pricy one. It is worth extra nearly 20 bucks to get a aus10 over a vg10 with the same heat treatment?
Doesn't matter between the two so get the cheaper one.
I wouldn't recommend getting either from Aliexpress considering that AUS-10 and VG-10 for ~30-50USD raises red flags. I am suspicious that they will not be as advertised. Instead I recommend looking for something that fits your budget better and is proven. Mercer and Victorinox come to mind as good options.
Hi again, thanks for the reply! :D I keep commenting but for some reason they just keep getting deleted. I totally agree with you that these knives look fishy however I couldn't find one sad customer online, and this brand was suggested to me by a close chef friend of mine. As I mentioned on my previous comment, I was about the make the purchase but just wanted to get a professional's opinion on which steel I should pick but fell into a rabbithole:
I learned that AliExpress knife makers actually started to make their own steel, named 10Cr15CoMoV which they advertised as vg10 since they are alike. However, some sellers were able to prove to me that the steel they are using is AUS10 imported from Japan. So, I am interested about your thoughts on 10Cr15CoMoV vs Japanese aus10 and the price difference I talked about.
Furthermore, I looked at your recommendations but I already have a Victorinox and even tough I liked Mercer knives, they were sold out on every site I could find but I appreciate the suggestion so much and would be grateful if you'd let me know of any brands that sell Japanese knives for under 100 dollars that you would recommend.
Thanks and have a nice day/evening.
Definitely helps having those personal recommendation so maybe worth a shot to try them out. At the end of the day, if the knife performs well in your use and you enjoy it then it was a good buy!
I will say that Chef Knives to Go has the 210mm Tojiro DP Gyuto for $101 right now and they are always a really great option for the price if it fits what you're looking for.
Between AUS-10 and VG-10 it's really going to be what corrosion resistance you want. VG-10 is going to be noticeably more stainless but if you take care of your knives at a moderate level I don't think you will notice that or anything in terms of performance. It will come down more to heat treat and the grind and all the other small details in terms of which is better.
With the Chinese version there will be a couple of considerations.
1) If you want more stainlessness than AUS-10 then it will probably be a better choice.
2) Chinese manufacturers have a reputation for not having the best quality control on their chemistry so it could be hit or miss. You can read a little about it in the article linked below.
3) Even with the right chemistry, the hot rolling process can be lacking in quality meaning that the material that shows up at the knife manufacturer will need some extra heat treatment processing up front to get the steel to a consistent starting point. A hurdle than can be overcome but not sure how common place that is with these manufacturers.
knifesteelnerds.com/2024/01/13/testing-chinese-knife-steel-8cr13mov-8cr14mov/
Food for thought!
Thank you
10 different knives in the same steel from the same manufacturer can test differently. The main reason I started out with Shun knives was the consistency in the blades. From there It was a dive into Hitachi steels from one company, Honmamon from Japan. It's a long trip! Daily use favorites are actually 2 Global chef's blades. There's lots of money you can spend in the kitchen knife category. Stay with long lived companies and you will be able to get a great kitchen tool. Could you test a couple of Hitachi steels? 👍 😃
I've got several duplicate steels that are significantly different and only a few that are from the same company but even then I can tell a difference like with the few examples of Tojiro DPs I have.
Honestly I cook with mostly German blades because of my fast paced kitchen and not as diligent wife. She really does do a pretty good job to her credit but I don't leave the Chromax Takamura lying out!
For Hitachi I only have a Kohetsu in Blue #2 and a Carter Cutlery in White #1. Might actually be an interesting comparison because so many generally consider Blue steel to be better than White.
My V-Toku 2 out cut that White #1 by about 17% and V-toku 2 is essentially Takefu's Blue #2 so I'd expect to see a repeat of that.
@@EngineersPerspective701 @Engineer’s Perspective yeah, I only have one example of white steel (white #2), but from reputable maker as far as I know, Ashi, and I like the blue steels better.
@@turing2376 White steel is tricky because without any grain pinning elements it's extremely difficult to produce high hardness without blowing out the grain size. I've seen a LOT of soft White #2 which is why I probably won't explore it much myself. But like you said, you have a reputable maker and I think that's super key when dealing with white steel because it takes a lot of skill to work with and yield good results.
So far I like both the White #1 and the V-toku 2 in EDC use but I haven't carried them in a long time so it's hard to say for sure.
@@EngineersPerspective701 yeah, probably not a fair comparison if the white steel is likely softer. I'd certainly be interested to hear your comparison if you do it.
I bought an Enso VG10 chef knife (I think it’s made by Yaxell) 4 years ago and use it to chop & dice veggies for supper 3 times a week minimum. I also use it to trim brisket & trim ribs into the “St. Louis style” once every month or two. I always use my knife carefully on a cutting board with semi-proper knife skills. But there’s been a handful of times where my mom or aunt would use it to chop veggies or cut meats on a plate and it was pure torture hearing my beloved knife being abused like that!
Having said that.. getting to the point: I have only used a honing rode on my Enso chef knife after 4 years of frequently home use and it’s STILL extremely sharp. But.. it’s not quite like it was those first couple years so I’m saving up for a Shapton 1000, I think (still doing research), and watching boatloads of tutorials on how to properly sharpen Japanese chef knives.
After using S-tier kitchen knives my whole life, my mind was blown at how great of an investment my Enso was. It was around $165 on Amazon iirc. Which is a pretty good deal compared to a lot of other Japanese chef knives I’ve been eyeballing lately. Lol
給中文讀者訊息
一把是 藤次郎 170mm 三德刀
另一把是 菊一文珠四郎包永 上面漢字刻字是 "菊一包永作" 150mm 小刀或稱削皮刀
Thank you for that!
good video , VG-10 has vanadium in it
Appreciate it! Lol, how did I miss that? I put up the charts and everything myself 😂. Oh well!
I’d expect AUS10 to be a little tougher due to lower amounts of Cr forming less amounts of carbide but I wouldn’t say that’s guaranteed
Not sure why I can see notifications for your other comments but can’t see them in the comment section. I’m not ignoring you, I just can’t find them!
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Just because it says Japan on it doesn't mean it's a good knife my brother inlaw was bragging about his Japan made 440 stainless after looke at my Taiwan made vg 10.😅
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