Charlie Morningstar: Triumph or Disaster?
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- Опубліковано 3 чер 2024
- So...Charlie. Is she yay, nay, or no way as the protagonist for Hazbin Hotel? There's valid arguments for every side. Buckle up buttercups, we're going analyzing.
0:00 Intro
1:44 What is the modern female protag?
11:22 Is Charlie a bad protagonist?
26:13 Is Charlie a good protagonist?
35:42 The verdict? - Фільми й анімація
![First Season Struggles Hazbin Hotel [Review + Animation]](/img/n.gif)
Note to…several of you. I do NOT include the pilot songs as the pilot is not readily available to people watching the Amazon Prime show (as in, included in the service or even mentioned) and cannot, therefore, be considered common viewing. The point of going to a large distributor like Amazon is to reach a broader audience so it’s that audience we have to keep in mind. Please stop telling me that Charlie has solos in the pilot. I’m aware. But the pilot is not the show, same as many many pilots are not considered part of the ‘show’ show, so even if the HH pilot is still canon, it cannot be included due to larger audience. Cool?
But the pilot is still canon
I like her so much.
The idea of the princess of hell being a cinnamon bun is fun.
I also applaud her motive of rehabilitation
Even sinners have good qualities.
I think if her goal makes sense and her personality is likable it's good.
Also bear in mind she is not pushover and can show flaws with a slight temper.
But everyone gets angry.
Ultimately Charlie is still developing the show JUST started. There is.many episodes to come to expand Hells Leading lady.
Vivizepop obviously wanted to build up rhe world lore and character's before a deep dive into her story. And thats perfectly fine.
She learned indeed some souls cant be redeemed and thats a good lesson.
I also love thay Vaggie even told her shes too nice to her Guests.
The clapping game seemed more like a kindergarten teacher thing than a therapist hotel owner. So its gonna be fun to see what she comes up with that wont treat her guests like five year olds.
Seeing Hell back her in the final episode of season one was a great moment because back in the pilot everyone was laughing at her idea, but the people of Hell can see she really wants to help and cares for everyone.
I cant wait to see what happens.
Thanks for the video!
I hope my points are good.
I don't think I've ever seen anyone ask if a character is a good male protagonist. It's as if men are allowed to contain any personality traits, but women must have some excluded and off-limits; and the whole mess gets messier when talking about fictional women who are being sold as products for a megacorp's profit.
I don't have a solution to this problem. I'm just musing that it's unfortunate.
While I agree with most of your point, there is a video from.the film theorists talking about young male protagonists and how our expectations differ from female protagonists and how that effects children.
While I do agree we focus on women in media a little too much there are conversations being had about men in media
I think for the themes of the show, Charlie as an protagonist is excellent. She starts her journey trying to play within the rules of a system that is specifically designed to harm her people. That's already bound to fail, but also her methods are trust-falls and toxic positivity, which is completely naive (and as seen in Masquerade even counterproductive).
So, her goal AND her methods are wrong - for an ongoing show, that is brilliant, because it means we can analyze the themes and the problem from every angle. And we have to do the wrong angles first, because if we try a correct one, the story will be over ;)
It is also very refreshing to see a show that allows the protagonist to just be wrong. We have an abundance of media that tries to sanatize the heroes and isn't willing to explore character flaws with them (ATLA remake, I'm looking at you!)
I hope next season, she's more assertive and more willing to go on the offensive. When she finally did after Welcome to Heaven. Seeing that Heaven's leadership (Or at least Sera and Adam) will not back down from the extermination and realizing they can in fact be killed, she goes to War and with the help of her father wins. She was only placating them out of fear. They couldn't fight back or so they thought. Next season, she, Lucifer, the rest of the hotel and all of Hell need to make it known to Sera, these will not be tolerated going forward.
Two good points I will give to Charlie:
1. She’s an active character, who goes out of her way to achieve her goals and even goes around trying to find alternative solutions when her plans fail.
2. She prevents the show from becoming another nihilism-filled slog, like many other adult shows by contrasting against both other characters and the setting.
However she does have a few glaring issues that may stop her from being more popular:
1. She’s clearly a take on the ‘quirky princess’ archetype which Disney has become so fond of nowadays, and this may immediately put people off due to over-saturation.
2. Her relationship with Vaggie is seriously one-sided. We see Vaggie continuously go out of her way to appease Charlie, going out of her comfort zone and doing things she clearly isn’t comfortable with (ie. her deal with Alastor) in order to make her girlfriend happy. When it’s Charlie’s turn to reciprocate, she proceeds to whinge and has to go through a crisis of faith arc about someone she should already know is on her side.
3. Charlie’s arc of realising her summer camp methods of ‘redemption’ aren’t taking the realities of why a person commits sin in account, is cut short by the war with heaven subplot. So we have the beginnings of a solid arc about her realising that her objective is going to be far more challenging than she realises, going completely nowhere, leaving the audience unsatisfied.
Really good points, thank you! (A nihilism-filled slog, I gotta remember that one.) The way the show was rushed definitely did some harm to Charlie’s development and I definitely have my issues with her and Vaggie despite really really loving more rep in the mainstream, so I’m glad to know I’m not the only one. Generally not a fan of ‘I will die for you just say when’ romances which…I feel they sort of lean into. And yeah, unfortunately Disney just dropped MORE quirky princesses while HH was being developed so…wow. 😅
I would agree that the ‘quirky princess’ trope would immediately put people off because of over-saturation, BUT for me it works here because it's in extreme contrast to the setting of the show in hell: the stark contrast between worst place in the universe where you expect the most awful people, but there of all places is a pure-hearted Disney princess - that makes it imho interesting again. ^^
@@mori1bund I think it's also the fact that the 'quirky princess' has SUBSTANCE with Charlie, it is treated as a character flaw as well as a strength, rather than being a replacement for any proper foibles. Yeah, she's super positive and optimistic, but she's also kinda clueless about the whole picture of dealing with sinners and immoral individuals. Masquerade is basically her getting a harsh reality check concerning this.
This is kinda why I like Charlie, because she takes the 'Disney Princess' trope but it's more the ACTUAL trope rather than the surface level one many relate to that archetype, eg. being super saccharine and flawless. She's empathetic and resilient, but she's also pretty vulnerable and niave to the point of clueless. She isn't instantly good at her main goal and despite her genuine character qualities, she relies on a lot of chaotic bumbling and luck so far, if not from her then from her friends like Sir Pentious and Niffty, who kinda just 'snowball effect' the entire Extermination plan to smitherens. XD
I think that may play further into Charlie's effect on the hotel members, since after a while she kinda lost her pedestal and became a human being to them, someone they could relate to better and were more willing to connect with. This is something I wish more female protagonists took from the Disney archetype; humility and humanity rather than just being the 'strong girl', even Disney themselves tend to discard this nowadays. I just hope they can keep some ongoing flow with Charlie's arc throughout the series.
I love the show, but I honestly think that it needed more than 8 episodes (maybe 12.)
1.) While she's still quirky, she also shows intelligence and an ability to grow.
2.) I loved how when Rosie asks if she loves Charlie she honestly says yes; moreover, I can understand why Charlie was hurt. Vaggie lied to her AND was part of the massacres Charlie was trying to stop. That's.....a pretty devastating thing to find out.
3.) In order for the redemption plan to work Heaven has to be onboard; beating back the exterminators, as well as redeeming Pentious changed the game considerably. That said, I think that 12 episodes would have helped (I'd have loved an episode where each talk about their origins).
@@e-122psi3 The strong girl is hard to pull off; Carol Danvers I don't actually hate. Her arc is overcoming Yon Rogg's gaslighting and acknowledging her worth and value. The moment she regains her memories she's utterly devastated. Moreover, there is a double standard where women who display confidence and arrogance are seen as "bitches" or "unlikable" whereas a guy with the same qualities is given more leeway (I LOVE Tony Stark but he does have flaws similar to Carol).
One of the main things used against Carol is the deleted scene where she manhandles a sexist biker. Firstly, she's still in "Kree soldier" mindset. Secondly, she initially tried to ignore him and he invaded her space by pushing her map down before leering and going "hur hur smile". The guy was being an asshole so frankly he deserved to get manhandled.
The fact charlie doesnt have a solo is kinda the point when you analyze on a meta level. The most intimate song moments we get with charlie are in the hotel: the domain she creates and is, despite what alastor might plot, in control of. Hell is an oppressive society that doesnt see individuals until they obtain the power to exert control over others usually in a suppressive manor. Heaven is too holier than thou to listen to those deemed lesser, which includes all of hell as proven time and time again within the context of the show. Charlie is a supporter, and might stick up for her goals, but wont willingly harm anyone; any time she has tried it blows up in her face. Then, when she is in control, she is meant to be a leader, and a good leader is a listener; someone who considers all perspectives and doesnt think they inherently know best. All the ensemble songs she leads just highlight that fact.
Solos are inherently selfish in nature, and though that is fine for most protagonists, it directly contradicts Charlie's character. Charlie is in control of multiple songs, but is at least vaguely aware of those she must lead. Happy day in hell points out her inability to listen. Starts with sorry shows her ability to come up with emotionally resonant solutions to problems. You didnt know is Charlie directly standing up for her dream despite being surrounded by naysayers, and it is rewarded by gaining an ally in Em, who creates an in to start affecting change in heaven. Ready for this is then the answer to happy day in hell, where she learns how to lead: not by ignoring the hellfire around her, but meeting every query with a satisfactory answer and meeting those she has to lead in the middle. Ready for this is proof Charlie has grown. All of these are Charlie songs, despite being sung by an ensemble. Instead, we have to compare them to the show must go on, in which charlie is the one who needs to be cheered up. It might be the only real ensemble song in the season, as Charlie acts as the beneficiary of the song, and cant lead it herself. By process of elimination, it means it is the only song initiated by the ensemble and follows the goals of the collective group over the individual that "leads" the song. No one "leads" the show must go on, it just takes lucifer to have the "authority" over the context to get it started.
I love your deep dives! Truly shows that even with 8 episodes the show was able to tell a lot.
I will be honest that Charlie was never my favourite character (been in the fandom since pilot days) and I didn't even know why. But I think that's because of your point, that we are more attracted to character with more pizzazz. So Charlie grew on me a lot as the season went on and is probably going to get even better in the future.
I'm just afraid that as she grows into a true leader of Hell, that my boy Lucifer is going to get killed (Bc there has to be a reason for why he would not be able to deal with the Vees by himself...maybe a conflict with Lilith??)
If Lucifer dies I will not be happy
@@akisatsuki8444 I feel you😔 idk how I’ll be able to survive that
Ahhh me too me too me too I’m so scared for Lucifer actually especially with his VA taking up a new role in the Great Gatsby on Broadway please Viv oh gosh
Hear me out when I say this..
I see Charlie hated throughout this fandom, I absolutely adore her and everything you’ve said is so perfectly worded; but i realized when you were talking about the character introductions-
Lucifer having a grand intro since he was late in the series, how Alastor was right after Charlie taking the spotlight.
Vs with her starting with the exposition, only having grand moments later in the show since she is developing throughout it. So I feel ppl honestly cant handle a subtle but nuanced character when you think more in depth about the media you’re in (especially her being a female it’s shown women protagonist are held to much higher standards and less leeway for seeming“generic” or “boring”.)
I liked when you mentioned ppl losing interest in her after ep 3 since having a charming personality can’t hold up for many ppl after awhile but I suggest a lot of ppl only want flashy characters with their problems, traits, already laid out instead of thinking in a bigger perspective.
I say this to say I don’t like the media literacy across this fandom because the way she is so mischaracterize is soo annoying. Nice analysis!
Agree completely. I think I mentioned that characters like Alastor and Angel will grab attention immediately due to having more extreme personalities, but they wouldn’t work as protagonists exactly because of those personalities! Charlie is great in my eyes 😊
When you Charlie doesn’t have a proper solo she dose in the pilot she has 2 solos with no one else singing
The pilot should not be considered part of the show as it is not included with the ACTUAL SERIES on Amazon Prime. The larger audience that Viv is trying to reach won’t be going to find some pilot on UA-cam. Even if it is considered canon, I am discussing the actual show. So…Charlie doesn’t have a solo in the show.
@@kyratries does happy day in hell not count? It's Charlie's I want, song
@@moeheil8839 Happy Day in Hell is a good song for establishing the setting and Charlie’s initial character, but I wouldn’t count it as an I Want song due to it lacking a real reason for her want. It’s also not a solo BUT it’s also more comparable to Where You Are from Moana, the Family Madrigal from Encanto, or Belle from Beauty and the Beast. Belle is actually a great example because Belle does sing and we get a definite idea of her character and how she doesn’t fit in, but her I Want song is a reprised solo where she directly expresses the urge to adventure and to find someone who understands her, which is much more personal than her singing about how much she loves this particular book and how the town is really predictable and boring. Opening songs often do establish characters a bit, but I Want songs also tend to (generally) not be the first number because we need to know our protagonist a little better to be invested in their deepest desires.
@@kyratries I'll be honest, I'm pretty new to musicals in general, high school Musical put me off of them for a long time due to being overplayed on Disney Channel back in the day, so hazbin is the first one since that I've watched. I just assumed an I want song was the character stating their goals through song, and i also still count a song with backup singers as a solo personally, because Charlie is simply put, the lead in the song, she controls the direction of it, the tone and there is nobody in the song apart from her to shift anything significant in the song, if that makes sense. Anyway, that's just my personal take, I understand where your coming from, I just have a different interpretation
@@moeheil8839 haha the High School Musical trauma, been there! It does make sense of course! I’m just following traditional set-up when it comes to these sorts of songs. I mentioned Moana, Beauty and the Beast, and Encanto as good examples of films with the lead singing an opening song that introduces the plot and character etc and even establishes some desires from the lead (Moana doesn’t want to be the leader but she will anyway, Mirabel doesn’t have a gift) while the true I Want song comes a little later on and really bares their soul as to why they want it. Charlie wants to save sinners and that’s great that she’s such an enthusiastic dreamer! (I love her so much!) But we actually wait until More Than Anything to find out that her inspiration to fight for her dreams came from her dad. When I think of I Want songs, it’s that deeper understanding of a character I’m really thinking about. But again, I’m basing this off tradition and thank you for such a nice pleasant interaction! I hate it when people start arguments on here all heated and just coming for my throat so thank you for telling me your opinion and letting me elaborate on mine! (I’m trying so hard to not sound condescending because I’m really really not so sorry if it came off that way at all. I just really do appreciate it so much when I can actually talk with nice people so tysm.)
i think many people who find her annoying say she is too positive or only messes up a situation but in my opinion she has depth more than others think. if she was just one dimensional conceptual character she will always think everything is going to work out yes she does but she also feels betrayed by vaggie's hiding the most important secret(which is understandable because it doesn't change the fact that she literally participated in genocide even though she helped charlie and also she hid the truth for years) and acknowledges that she made things worse despite good intention for example crossing angel dust's boundaries. she will also get angry and uses her demon form and power to fight adam although she probably never trained how to use her power which explains why she lost quickly. she also doesn't know exactly about sinners because she was 'never' a human before. but her compassion and positivity that can never be found in hell created an environment for her residents to change themselves by interacting with each other. her character arc will be about learning how to be assertive as princess of hell and face the problem she has with her redemption project while also further utilizing her greatest strength, compassion. i think she could have her arc in earlier episodes so that people could understand her more but i think she is a great protagonist who has intentional flaws that will be fixed and i want to know about her backstory of how she came up with the idea of rehab more on detail (thank you for reading this if you read. jesus i think i wrote an essay lol
love this discussion vid ! you’ve made me have a new appreciation for charlie
let’s hope she gets her solo next seadon
I think Charlie works because she is technically the 'girl boss' but a chaotic empathetic one. She's clearly trying to nurture these characters but doesn't really know what she's doing, as such she is tasked with making an environment for the main cast where each and every one of them ends up a vital cog in kickstarting it running. I think this is why some say Charlie risks being bland. I think it's more a 'medium fish in big pond' thing since she DOES have a fun personality but everyone else is even MORE larger than life and like you said, her arc is a slow burner compared to most of them. However Charlie works as a protagonist for an ENSEMBLE show since how she works things allows every single character to shine and get their moment.
She lacks the one really grating issue with so many modern girlbosses in that she doesn't make the whole picture about HERSELF and how superior she is, or alternatively makes it about the others but only in terms of how they suck compared to her (which is the easier choice when they're allowed to be more flawed and colourful than the girlboss). In Hazbin, characters are allowed to influence each other, and not just Charlie influencing them, but them influencing her and a bastion of other character dynamics. Everything flows organically in the show, if in an admitedly fast pace due to the brevity of episodes.
Heck I love how much the show has 'doing your best' vs 'being THE best' as a recurrent premise. The pride ring is filled with all these thin skinned egos trying to make themselves the center of attention, they laugh at the very idea of someone just humbly trying to help people out and bring out the best in them. It almost feels like a mockery of the modern overzealous nature of 'make yourself heard and don't take crap from 'the man''. Sometimes a little humility and empathy works better.
To me, in my opinion and analysis, a Modern Female Protagonist.
Is someone who moves the story forward, and her characteristics are defined based on her experience and development. Feminism is subjective it depends on the writer what he/she or they want to do for the designs of their female characters.
Strong Female Protagonist are defined because of there upbringing they had to be strong because they experience to own how cruel reality can be.
So yeah, Charlotte Morning star 🌟 is a good female main character,
This may seem like an odd idea but...hear me out first.
I love role-play and Dungeons & Dragons has been one of my favorite ways to indulge in that. Over the years, I've heard people say that playing D&D or taking part in LARPing with friends has helped them with MANY emotional issues. Some have developed stronger people skills, some grew more confident, some felt a great source of emotional release while playing and...some see both outlets as a way that allows them to express themselves in ways that otherwise wouldn't be seen as "socially acceptable."
Imagine if Charlie and the Hotel Crew were playing a D&D session, not while seated at the table but through some form of magical shenanigans (i.e. they'd be put into the game themselves.) I'd like to think playing the game would present MANY ways to delve into trust exercises, expressing ones inner feelings and above all, granting tenants a way to let off some steam (in a safe and healthy way.)
But...this is just my idea
That’s actually a super fun idea!
@@kyratries In terms of the "magical shenanigans" I mention, I'm referring to someone like Lucifer or Alastor putting the gang into the game's world; turning them into whatever characters they chose to be.
The question is...what class and race would fit each of them?
@@SilverScribe85 oh gosh what edition are we going on? I feel like Charlie would get super into it with a really complex backstory but also be a cleric or something so she can help people out. Vaggie some sort of fighter class? If playing, I think Lucifer would choose bard? And then actually come up with songs on the spot? I’m trying to decide if there would be that annoying person who decides to be the annoying rogue player. Ofc Alastor would a warlock or something. Husk would probably wait a bit before deciding on a class to balance things out. I don’t have a clue with Angel. Idk what do you think?
30:13 Small corection there. In ep 5 Charlie said to her dad she started the hotel 5 months ago. That's not 5 months since she had the meeting with Adam or since the pilot but since she started the hotel. In the pilot Angel was alredy staying there and Katie said she's been pestering 666 news for a while. So while we don't have any specific numbers I think we are around 4 months after ep 1
What about Happy day in hell? It's without a doubt her main solo. Even with the ocasional backing from the other demons it's still *her* song
empathy isn't the same as compassion that's why she is able to be compassionate/caring merciful and loving without understanding what others are going through there is cognitive empathy emotional physical empathy artistic empathy plant empathy dream empathy intuitive empathy spiritual empathy social empathy interpersonal empathy visual empathy digital empathy psychological empathy motor empathy sensory empathy and fantasy empathy
I'll be honest, I really didn't start to like Charlie until episode seven. The other characters really carried the show for me. I do look forward to seeing where she'll go from here, but it took time for her to grow on me.
Isn't Happy day in Hell Charlies Solo song? There isn't a choir or other character duetting with her during it other than Vaggie for a few lines at the beginning and middle, the other singers are more contradicting her view. It also sets up her character "optimism in the face of hell" and her later on conflict of believing that Heaven will want to work with her if she just can convince them.
So in summary, I Want songs are important
Lmao call me out
In my opinion Charlie has not changed as a character if you look through the extended version of happy day in hell She’s kind of prejudice against the angels and at the end she’s just kind of the same character only a bit more aggressive .
That’s too bad. 😊
She's a little bit of both xD she made a LOT of mistakes but in the end, IT PAYS OFF.
23:57 Inside of Every Demon Is A Rainbow ???
In the pilot, not the show. Pilot is not included with the show on Amazon and therefore cannot be considered accessible to the broader audience the show was meant to (and did) reach. It might be canon, but many many MANY people won’t ever see it and therefore I will not include it in my analysis.
The reason why i feel charlie isn't as interest as the other characters is that ironically i don't feel like i know enough of her, or the parts the show said i should know of her
Like the main focus of the story, the hotel, how did she come up with this idea ? I dunno, and why gettin the souls into heaven was her main goal ? Before the finale there was no evidence of it, not so much of a hint this is a thing that can happen
It makes sence why she thinks everyone can become a good person, and why she would want the sinners to act better, what doesn't is how she convinced herself getting into heaven was possible
It feels like it's more of a desperate delusion she had someday
Plus her relationship with vaggie seems so...underdeveloped, aside from the gentle touches and kisses i feel we don't see enough of them as a couple, like we're missing interactions between them
Pluuus one thing that bothers me a lot is that husk especifically said "wants to help solve everyone problems aside from her own", but we never see that side of her
We never see she having a problem and them trying to help someone to avoid thinking about it, every time she helped someone was because she just wanted
Even when she went to cannibal town to help with the extermination problem, she still talked about vaggie's situation the whole way, and when rosie asked what happened she promptely told what was bothering her
And what was suposedly her problem, the daddy issues, were resolved with a single conversation and a song, like it felt easy, it didn't feel earned
And the daddy issues seem to have come outta blue like...your telling me young charlie never invited lucifer over or called him and told "i want to spend time with you dad"?, we know lucifer would jump at the oportunity
If it was lilith not letting him see charlie we never get as much of a hint of it
Plus with her mother that raised he for basically all her life sudenly going missing shouldn't charlie be having mommy issues? Or at least have characters mentioning is both ?
I like charlie, how she just goes singing and literally is a literally disney princess in hell, how she sees all of that fucked up shit and go "yeeaaah no, this is...no good"
How she can be happy go lucky but also have her crazy break down moments
But i feel we didn't explore her core enough, and i also think she didn't really changed this season
I know you said you won't analyze the pilot, but when discussing charlie's songs why didn't you mention happy day in hell, sure it's not a solo but she sings the vast majority of it, all the other singers butt in for a line or two
It also is a "I want" song
Also I do find it funny the carmilla was one of two people to get a solo in the show lol
Carmilla didn't deserve a song.
Whoo okay I actually had this conversation under another reply so sorry, this is condensed, but Happy Day is more comparable to songs like Belle, the Family Madrigal, or Where You Are, which introduce and establish the bare facts about a character and their setting, maybe some basics, but don’t get into the deeper feelings of why. Like Where You Are from Moana, Happy Day is mostly the protagonist introducing her world, her place in it, and some basic ideas, like how Moana doesn’t really want to be the leader but can roll with it, same as Charlie really wants to help Hell. It’s surface level with other characters chipping in. How Far I’ll Go is Moana’s actual I Want song because it exposes her actual desires and why she feels she cannot take her place as leader of her people-she wants to travel to the horizon and feels called to the sea despite knowing she shouldn’t be. Happy Day doesn’t give us a WHY for why Charlie wants to save Hell, and actually depicts it as a rather terrible place, so we get that she’s very happy go lucky and cute as heck, but it’s hard to understand why she’s so passionate. And we don’t actually really get an answer until episode 5, where Charlie admits that her ability to dream came from her father and that is the WHY she wants to save her people. So her I Want song would have potentially given her a solo where she got to express that all on her own, or some other much more soul-baring truth that explains a Why instead of a What. I guess we call it an ‘I Want’ song but really it’s the ‘I Need’ song. I need to explore past the horizon, I need adventure in the great wide somewhere, I need to experience life beyond the confines of what I’m promised, I need to shed my good girl persona and embrace who I’ve always been, I need to feel accepted by my magical family in our magical house despite not having a gift, and I need to save my people more than anything.
I actually don't mind Carol Danvers; she has to overcome gaslighting and here "jerkish" nature is played up by sexist trolls
I stumble upon on this vid and it got me confused.
To be fair I didn't watched all of it because got stuck with "is she a good female protagonist?" thing.
For me Charlie isn't a good protagonist, she didn't had enough time in the show to know her better and she feels flat because of it.
Nothing to do with gender. I could swap the sex of charlie and her girlfriend and I reasoning wouldn't change.
There was just not enough time, the snake guy was the best because he got a rushed hero's journey build, but still not good written by any means.
Disaster especially with what she did in regards to Angel, the writing makes it hard to have any reason to feel sympathy and see good.
"They relied on the men in the life to save the day!" no... no they did not, at least not entirely. You're entitled to your interpretation but this ultra-feminism take on Disney princesses is so common, I am sick of it. I do not think it is accurate.
And whether a character is "good" or "bad", be they a man, a woman, or transgender, is entirely dependant on whether or not the writers are good at what they do. Disney, and by extension Marvel, has been plagued by horrible writing, shallow storytelling, and a pandering to what they THINK the main audience wants to see, resulting in movies that preach woke extremism or a story that is shallow at best.
Alright. Here’s your platform. Please tell me how the Disney princesses I named were not ultimately saved by a man. Because I remember Snow White being woken by a kiss and…oh wait, that was Sleeping Beauty too, except Philip also fought a dragon. And in regard to the current situation, just because writing has gotten worse and lazy in general doesn’t mean that certain groups don’t suffer more from it, especially as minority groups, which do still unfortunately include women, are being written into those lazy stories. This isn’t ultra-feminism. It’s being able to watch a piece of media and recognize that Star Wars isn’t suddenly progressive because two women kissed in the background.
@kyratries The prince might have kissed Snow White to wake her up, but all he did was show up. Snow White was the one who offered to do housework to the dwarves in exchange for shelter. She even took the initiative to clean the house first. She might get criticized for her lack of agency, but she's an abuse victim. If you want them to be more proactive, they need to have a proper support system like Cinderella's animal friends. As for "Sleeping Beauty", Aurora/Briar might have spent most of the film in a coma, Philip would have never escaped Maleficent's castle if it weren't for the fairies (three female characters). Also, like Snow White's prince, all he did was show up. The fairies did most of the work in the film.
@@kyratriesI actually think that Philip is more of a damsel in distress than Aurora, since Mary-Weather changed the conditions to Maleficent's curse.
@@ThePrincessCH which she did so Philip could come in and save Aurora. Yes. Look, I actually have nothing against the movie. Many of them were actually great rewrites of old fairytales that kept the spirit of the tale without the sometimes actually disturbing amount of violence towards women. (Can you imagine Disney’s Cinderella if the stepsisters had actually mutilated their feet? 😰) the fairies are great characters and I always call it a “tsp” now but even if Philip got help from them, he was framed as the main hero. the fairies are essential, but also used as comic relief and use their magic to enhance Philip’s skills. If he’d just completely missed with the enchanted sword, Maleficent wouldn’t have been killed. Philip is simply more of a character than Prince Charming, so his story has a lot more meat to it, including the trials he overcomes and the companions he makes to overcome them.
@@ThePrincessCH and your first sentence sums it all up. Snow White may do this that and that but the Prince she met for .5 seconds at the beginning shows up, kisses her, and she lives happily ever after because he just happened to show up and do literally the bare minimum. All this extra stuff that you’re throwing in might fill the story in, but it does not change the bare bones. It’s fine. Snow White being saved by a kiss isn’t MY personal beef. But it’s what happens. Of course she’s an abuse victim. She’s a woman from an old fairytale. Literally all I say is that these women are reliant on the men in their lives to save them. I don’t say that they don’t suffer, that there aren’t other female characters in these stories, or even that I dislike them! But they are saved by their respective princes in the last act, end of story. That’s just…true. It’s true.
I don't like charlie for multiple reasons my opinion
Also there already dead in afterlife hell heaven there ghosts to..