Yeah Naughty Dog does a similar thing where after so long a prompt pops up asking you to press L3 to show you the hint. The player has to manually press it though if they want it which I think is a decent compromise.
Why would I do that, it will never help me with the high stack of irregular placed blocks because I’m too stupid to figure out how to clear more lines than one 😅
For those that don't know: They specifically made the hints in the game so blunt by using DSP as an example of the average player's puzzle solving ability.
Honestly if they just made it so that you havta walk over to your npc companion to get a hint/have the characters talk brainstorm a solution, that would be perfect
That's genuinely a good idea. They say something along the lines of "I'll get a better angle" at the start of a puzzle, and then you can talk to them at any point for them to give out hints, pretty simple and unintrusive.
@@GreatBeanicus That's not an "idea". It's something implemented in games from 20 fuckin years ago. It's just that they don't trust you enough to push that button now apparently
Seeing David Jaffe criticize environmental puzzles for being too easy is HYSTERICAL after the trouble he had getting through the first hour of Metroid Dread. That's pretty illuminating as to just how bad this problem has become.
There is an easy way to fix this. If you are stuck you could just walk next to your partner and press square and they give you a hint. No need for extra option setting and you can just choose during gameplay if you need help.
"I want to go on a journey with others but I want them to be quiet and never contribute to problem-solving" is being presented as the more "realistic" option here.
@@neurocapable that's a bit of a false equivalence don't you think No one is saying that it's just irritation about the game just straight up giving you the answer to a puzzle for 80% of the puzzles
I like how Elden Ring( just let you do whatever you want, + not much scenario) and GOW Ragnarök( Hand-holding/backsiting + a truly cinematic experience) philosophy is entirely different.
@@solidsnake9924 GOW has deep gameplay. I'd say it isn't as well implemented as ER, (mostly because the combination of enemy and arena design is questionable, and enemies don't flinch in a consistent way), but both games have very similar combat systems. GOW even has some things that I'd say are implemented better, like enemies that force you to use blocking, parrying, and dodging in the same fight, rather than allowing the player to cheese things through one set strategy.
@Kyle Smith I wouldn't consider their differences to be "genre" It's a different philosophy of what games should be, and what core aspects of game design
@AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH the hand holding part of GoW is just true though. They don’t trust their players to get through any encounter without developer help. Why am I still hearing from Mimir that I need to throw my axe at the glowing parts of enemies 30 hours into the game? Why can’t I sit somewhere for 3 min trying to figure out a puzzle without a companion chiming in. Their philosophy seems to be getting you through encounters as fast as possible at the expense of trusting the player. The game is great but they clearly have little faith in their player base.
@@solipsist3D Maybe because you weren't doing it? Not to exclusively call you an idiot (though you are one), I had Atreus tell me to use a shield against an attack... After I got killed trying to dodge it three times. If you're getting those hints 30 hours in, it's because the game has noticed that you aren't using the tools it gave you.
When I encountered a puzzle, my mind immediately went to "I got to figure this out in the next 10 seconds or my companion is going to tell me about how much of a dumbfuck I am" 😆
I honestly think the worst part is when they go 'great job!' after you follow their obvious advice. Like, what am I, a fucking group home client? Were people who live in licensed residential facilities the target audience of the game? I felt genuinely uncomfortable the first time Freya said that to me, and the _way_ she said it too. . . I didn't feel like I was playing God of War anymore. I felt like I was attending the Special Olympics. . . as a participant, and no shade to people who do just that, but I'm supposed to be playing as Kratos, and those two moods and tones are not remotely compatible with each other.
The puzzle solving in Ragnarok goes thus: Enter puzzle area Look around for 5 seconds “Hmmm, I probably need to-“ Atreus: “HEY, MAYBE YOU SHOULD FREEZE THAT SHIT!”
I still haven't played this, but I was playing Miles Morales the other day and Miles wouldn't stop talking to himself about what he needs to do and how he plans to do it. I love that game to death, but I do wish I could turn off the hints.
The silly part of this issue is that according to a few devs on twitter, the timer before you start getting hints isn't based on the reasonable amount of time they expect an average player to find the solution, but rather on the amount of time it takes the investors (who often aren't video game players) to express frustration during their playtest sessions. Since they have a lot of power over the validation process, devs can't just turn a blind eye on their complaints and have to find a quick fix to please them, hence the obnoxious hints.
The hilarious part about David Jaffe having this take is that they renamed the famous "noob wall" room in Metroid Dread the "Jaffe room" after a complete opposite take. The room requires you to shoot an otherwise unmarked wall to proceed forward. The game tells you this will be a thing throughout on one of the first screens, and follows through. But this one does have reason to shoot at it, there is an enemy crawling across it that can be a pain and you can see a path on the other side with enemies too. He claimed the game never prepared you for this moment, never even hinted at the fact you could do this, and it would have been useful to have something hint it while you were there. Sure he was nade fun of for it, but Jaffe might have indirectly been the reason for this design choice in Ragnarok in particular.
The best part about this is that they have a video discussing this and their example was a blurred out video of xqc (Big time twitch streamer for those unaware) struggling to do a basic ass puzzle in the first game, Fast forward to now and he’s still struggling with the puzzles even with the hints 😂
They should be looking at feedback other than from streamers. Obviously streamers will have a harder time, as they generally have to multitask more than the average person playing. They will almost never find any valuable critiques from a popular streamer or journalist reviewers. Streamers just frankly do not think about that shit and journalist reviews will mindlessly shower a game with praise with little to no mention of a games potential faults.
Devs and producers mistakenly thinking twitch streamers are a good representative sample...... Also we have to acknowledge that many streamers act stupid on purpose to prolong a game and hence Garner more donations. Viewers enjoy watching someone fuck up.
Horizon Forbidden West became a chore because of Aloy's ceaseless chatter. I don't really see it as being told I'm stupid when they immediately give hints or full on solutions. I feel like they rob me of the challenges I paid them for. It feels like buying a 2000 pcs puzzle, opening the box and have an unasked for included nanoswarm just laying it out in front of my eyes 😡 I haven't finished Horizon Forbidden West because I don't wanna be with Aloy anymore. That great character I loved so much from Zero Dawn. What a way to utterly toxify a character 🤕
yeah, I wasn't feeling this "they tell me I'm stupid" part either. Especially because they are so quick to give hints, that you just realize no one can be that quick, I didn't even realize this was a puzzle xD
Agreed 100% on the hints. Beyond just that though, whenever I do puzzles in GoWR I'm just wondering "why are these puzzles even here?"... they seem completely pointless to me it's like they're just trying to fill up play time I also fell asleep yesterday climbing a giant wall 😂... I can't believe how much dead time Ragnarok has, between cutscenes, climbing, chatting, rowing, crawling, etc.
I think the bigger point is that these developers perceive the most important aspect of their game to be the story. They don't want you to spend too much time on puzzles because it's not that important to the experience; the important part is the narrative. they're telling you "don't worry about it man, just move on, we know you just want to see what happens next in the story or see the next cinematic set piece." Hell, the puzzles aren't very good, creative, or interesting anyway. This begs the question: if the most important part of your game is the story (the cutscenes, scripted sequences, walking talking moments etc..), which is all something a movie can do, but better, then where's the value in this being a game. Why not just make a movie/TV show, if the story is really that important to you.
@@Valosken I mean that was only a fraction of the point I was making....But really?? throwing your axe from a certain position to hit all the vines, or freezing some water or a gear in place is creative and interesting to you? Compare that to something like Outer Wilds, where they use concepts of quantum mechanics as the basis for their puzzle. Now that's a wild idea.
I'm in that 1% you mentioned. I'm puzzle challenged, I mean to the extreme. I'ts like my brain just locks up, and fails to see the most obvious things, it's bizarre. I guess it's for that reason that I hate puzzles. And I _need_ hints most times, or sometimes I just outright need the solution, or I would spend hours, and still not figure it out on my own. With that said I understand that some people actually like puzzles, and solutions shouldn't be pushed on anyone, it should always be optional, and you should be able to outright turn hints off.
My partner hate puzzles, but more than that she is unable to handle frustration. She immediately locks up mentally when anything confuses or frustrates her, which is why she cant handle difficult combat like Elden Ring or any kind of puzzle in games. This kind of hint thing is perfect for her. It would massively piss me off though. I love being frustrated.
@@xdearlifex It's not a good kind of frustration for me I'm more like her. It's kind of funny really, because the puzzle sections are supposed to be downtime between combat to relax, but for me, it's much more frustrating than combat, and I just can't wait to get past it.
@@babayaga4320 that's really interesting. Why do you think your brain locks up when you hit a puzzle? My partner is a very smart person, so I dont think it has anything to do with intelligence.
@@xdearlifex I don't know, I'm low on the spectrum, but I don't think autism directly affects puzzle solving. The only way I can describe it that when I'm confronted with a puzzle, I'm instantly looking for very specific and very intricate solutions, when the answer is usually not nearly as complicated, and when I think something should work a certain way, and it doesn't, I just start to get really frustrated, and then I'm not exactly thinking clearly at that point. So, I guess overthinking puzzles is part of it, combined with preconceived notions I have that something must work this specific way, that my brain is unwilling to let go of.
Haven't played the game yet; but for me in similar cases where this does happen, as it does happen often nowadays, I don't feel like the game is indirectly making me feel stupid, I rather just roll my eyes at the game for the lack of choice whether we get a hint or not. The moment the hint is automatically given everytime, it calls the point of the mechanic into question. WHat's the point of us trying to even do ANY puzzles if the answer is given. There's no joy or sense of satisfaction in the game telling you the answer to a puzzle. Might as well not even create the obstacle to begin with. Hope they patch this to a button prompt soon.
So glad this is getting talked about more. I hate being given hints too quickly to puzzles. I like to take my time and play around with the puzzle mechanics. The last game I played that did something like this was Jedi Fallen Order, but they give you a button to press if you want a hint, instead of a timer. That's so much better. Let the player choose when they feel stuck. Having no hint system at all is what I would prefer, Odyssean self control and such, but it makes sense for AAA games to always have a way to help people get unstuck if they're really just not getting a puzzle. But please make it an option, and preferably not the default
Sometimes, I wish more games learned from the Prince of Persia 2008(?) reboot. You have a companion the entire time, but you choose when you want to talk to them. There's just a dedicated button for banter and stuff and it's all context sensitive, about an area or whatever. It would be a solution to this problem too. You could hit it when you WANT a hint.
There are tradeoffs and such. It's been many years, but I think they will also show a prompt for the button when the companion wants to talk about something. But even then, you don't have to. I guess they are worried people might 'miss' something? But then you need to make sure that your story is being told in other ways too, even with the world itself.
Zelda did this literally 20 years ago. You could choose to ask for a hint. And yet these Sony exclusives supposedly push boundaries, break new grounds in gaming... What a joke.
@@john_michael97 Yeah, kinda like that, but a little less menu-y etc. Was more dynamic cause you could also keep moving and doing stuff while they talked.
@@Kasaaz That’s fair, it’s just another example of a hints system that actually requires you to engage with it rather than shoving them in your face unprompted.
Just let the player ask Atreus for hints, it's so simple. The devs can play it off as Kratos seeing how smart his son is, can he see the solution? It would give players full control over whether they want hints, and increase the ludonarriative harmony
I enjoy playing my games slowly and without guides. Taking in all the graphics, looking for secrets, how I believe most games are intended to be played. I am always hours below the average HowLongToBeat. I see no reason to rush through my games and turn them into an experience I can get for free on UA-cam/Twitch Lets Plays when I buy my games to be played organically. Discovering things yourself and overcoming challenge and failure to create success is some of the best feelings a videogame can offer. This modern trend of shoving the solution in front of the player's face, regardless if they want it or not, is beyond obnoxious design and feels something done for non gamers.
The funny thing is that the original God of War trilogy was one of the shining examples of how puzzles should be done. Difficult enough to give you a challenge, and very few to no hints. Kind of funny how they didn't follow that part of the formula that makes God of War successful. I still think God of War Ragnorak is one of the best games I've ever played and I feel the puzzles took a hit because they wanted to focus on other aspects of the game. So it didn't bother me too much, but I see the point.
They could just do it like in Jedi fallen order. You can ask for a puzzle tip if you want to, but give us the choice. Some people don't like spending ages on puzzles, and that's fine, they can ask for the hint to move on. But if you want to take your time, give us that choice too.
I completely agree. I like to look at everything and enjoy taking my time with the exploration and puzzle solving. Should add an option to turn off hints
My companion telling me "maybe you should try your spear" as I am lining up my spear shot, gets kind of annoying. Especially when it hasn't been 15 seconds since we got to the area.
It's funny you bring up Elden Ring secret areas. Ragnarok also has a lot of secret optional areas, not as hidden as in Elden Ring but still far off the beaten path. But when it's a puzzle suddenly the NPC's become kindergarten teachers
Its not about just secret areas, its about unique game design that costs a lot of money being put off the beaten path and risked to be missed. That just shows that some developers trust in their players, others dont
I feel the same way, puzzle hints are super annoying, almost as much as the climbing and crawling they have to hide loading screens or as downtime for dialog. if they want a pause for more dialog just give me a cutscene.
This began to irk me really badly halfway through the game. And to think I saw so many PS5 fanboys coping going ''This really is a PS5 game. Last gen owners won't know what it's like to play this properly.'' Sony fanboys went from shitting on every other platform to even shitting on their own last gen just to defend this game. Amazing.
@@TheStraightestWhitest didnt bother me really. People complain about everything. Elden Ring was amazing too and theres videos all over the internet shitting on it too
Ragnarok has the same phenomenon as Skyrim. The game spells everything out for you, so you're shocked when the game trusts you to think. There was one puzzle where you have to get creative and lure a monster as bait into a cage. It took me a few minutes to figure out because I was searching for the interactable that would trigger mimir to explain it for me. It was nice to have a puzzle where they don't tell you everything
Exactly this. That puzzle took me 48 minutes simply because the game was suddenly expecting me to make an actual leap in thinking based on nothing but visual hints from the area. Now that would normally be fantastic game design. In a game like Darksiders 2, it'd have been a welcome addition. But that's speaking normally. Not when the game has held your hand for 80% of it and then suddenly refuses to give your companion any dialogue suggesting what you are to do. This made me think that the answer wasn't in the area I was searching in, not because I couldn't figure it out if I'd tried, but because I got so used to companions making suggestions once I was in the right area that their lack of it made me think I wasn't in the right area to solve the puzzle since many puzzles in God of War need to be accessed from a different place. It's one of the worst pieces of game design I've ever seen. It's like they coupled all their previous design choices (being able to see the right place to solve a puzzle but not access it + companion hints when you're in the right place) only to pull them away for a massive ''F*ck you!'' moment. Really weird.
@@TheStraightestWhitest yeah it depends highly on the game's context and the difficulty that the game has set and when that is changed without warning it completely throws the player off
At least in the case of A NEW HAND TOUCHES THE BEACON, Meridia telling you what to do served more as a motive to complete the quest than assistance in figuring it out.
One game that does a good job with puzzle hints is Jedi Fallen Order, you have to ask for hints to even get one and most of the time the hints just reaffirm your idea. The game has relatively easy puzzles but sometimes you won’t be sure you’re on the right track so it’s helpful to be told your doing it the right way. You don’t feel like you’re just wasting time but you also don’t feel stupid.
Because it's a movie, and movies need to keep a certain pace. No time for interaction, we need to get to the next cutscene. I mean bossfight. Eh, same thing.
I've recently started playing persona 5, and it's a great game, probably the best jrpg I've played in a long time. However, the puzzle solving is so annoying, I've got an annoying cat telling me what to do before I even get to look around. Really my only complaint, other than a few unlikable companions, was I didn't feel like a thief, I felt like Dora the explorer
"We don't want anyone getting stuck on these." "These are not the selling point of the game." "These are not the parts that you want to get to." Then don't fucking include them to begin with. Alos, give people a mandatory Bayonetta Easy Mode while you are at it, since you consider us so stupid.
The dev in GOW thought of everything. They know that people are going to backseat the puzzle solution for the streamer/player they watch online. So they made the game did it itself before the chat could even type the answer. Truly magnificent how the backseat proof technology has become. 10/10 GOTY. Oh wait, it is not intended to prevent backseat? I was walking into a puzzle (it wasn't even hard but still require throwing axe at difference location to freeze stuff) and just looked at the thing for like 10 seconds then Mimir/Atreus started talking "May be we can..." and the fun died with it. I remember when I played the first GOW many years ago at the store. I was very young (probably 8-9, I know it is way under the recommended age) and couldn't solve a puzzle that require me to push stuff left and right so I stopped playing and watched other people played instead. It was fun even though I couldn't continue it myself. Unlike this.
If the devs don't want people stuck in their puzzles, then they shouldn't include puzzles to begin with. Getting stuck is a part of the solving process of any puzzle, like, that's the whole point of a puzzle, that you have to figure it out. If you just enter the room and know right away what you have to do to progress, then it is not a puzzle. It amazes me, like why include puzzles in your game if you do not want your players to have "the puzzle experience" (which again, includes getting stuck sometimes)?
I would hate this when I play portal, for example, but I couldn't care less about this in a game that doesn't list itself as a puzzle game. I'm forced to do puzzles and my purely default response is apathy. You said it best, the puzzles aren't the appeal... they're just there. I know people that hate text-to-speech on tiktok or exposition narration in a movie, but they just don't register with me as an issue.
the problem is not that they give you hints, the problem is that you have no choice but listening to them, you can close your eyes, you'll hear them, you can shut the sound off, you'll see it. A good game is a game where you have a choice they could have just put Atreus at the entrance of the puzzle room, with a voiceline saying " don't mind asking me, maybe I could help you " or something like that I grew up playing zelda games, if I hear a f npc giving me the solution without my consent, I would be just as your friend, and shut the console down, or changing game for few hours
5:40 That’s the problem, in the original GOW 1&2 , the puzzles (some of which, failures will lead to death) are a big part of the appeal of the game rather than a mere “combat break”. Current modern game puzzles are getting generic and standardised, it’s a problem. Santa Monica have forgotten their roots.
I was playing through CrossCode recently (side note: play CrossCode) and one of the things that stuck out to me was how weird it felt for a game to trust me to figure out puzzles again. I would walk into a room, and my brain was so trained to expect the game to make the solution obvious to me that if I didn't figure it out within the first minute or two, I actually started to get annoyed. But then when I finally pieced together how the puzzle worked and managed to solve it, it felt SO GOOD. Really hate this trend, so glad that its starting to get talked about more. Having a hint system is fine but let me opt-in to it. Don't make standard.
You should try the Legend of Zelda series. The entire series is built around trusting you to figure out the puzzles yourself (except for one standout exception). Breath of the Wild is especially good.
@@L337N1NJ4L1NK So, I _hate_ Breath of the Wild, for two reasons. One, the durability/survival component on weapons. Like, I find that _heart-breaking_ . If it wasn't for that and one other component of the game, I'd probably play it. The other thing I don't like, is the fact that the enemies are machines. It takes away the magic of the world. Am I wrong? Should I try the game anyway? Is it worth it despite those two problems? Would I see the Master Sword and get to use it without using it _up_ ?
@@stupidanon5941 the first point is pretty understandable as it pissed many people off, but it was built in to make the player more resourceful and constantly explore the world other than claim the best weapon and play it the whole game. For the second, that's really on you as it is a pretty big nitpick, machinery isn't unique to Breath of the Wild as there were even trains in the sequal of wind waker
@@stupidanon5941 Well, I won't lie, weapon durability is rather annoying from an outside perspective. But once you get used to the game it isn't all that much of an issue since the game throws weapons at you like candy. The only exception to this is the Master Sword, which does have durability but "recharges" after being depleted. It however does have more than enough to clear the dungeons on a single "charge" so you don't need to worry about that. As for the machines, I can get where you are coming from there too. They're more like magi-tech than just regular technology but if you don't like the feel you just don't like it. In my opinion, Breath of the Wild is one of the best games ever made and is a strong contender for my favorite game of all time. If you have the ability to borrow a friend's copy or sail the high seas to try it out, I'd give it a shot.
It can be a God of War hitpiece for all I care. This shit is a problem. My favorite puzzle game is by far Darksiders 2. They are ridiculously well designed. Genre standard. It annoyed the piss out of me that God of War, specifically Ragnarok, made countless puzzles downright weird to solve (rather than forcing you to think logically and make steps and leaps in your thinking) and then just had NPCs say ''wait what if you do that?'' It's like they'd already developed them by the time they playtested them, realized they were shit and nonsensical, and then just added some dialogue from your companion(s) to help you solve them. We know Sony likes handholding in their exclusives, but this one did it to an insulting extent.
I mean your NPC companion is always there with you I think adding a prompt that says "Ask Atreus what he thinks" is a more than acceptable solution to this. They already had one section of the game have one NPC control an elevator and all you needed to do was press square when you looked at your companion. Having the player place their curser over the NPC and make them press the R3 button (the button assigned to way-pointing if enabled) to ask for hints i think is doable.
When I was watching a playthrough of Ragnarök, and not even playing myself, I was annoyed by the constant hand-holding during puzzles. The player was also playing on the hardest difficulty and it seemingly didn't affect the puzzles at all. Also, I instantly thought of you when I saw Ratatoskr in the game.
What's worse is that sometimes the unsolicited NPC dialogue misleads you. One time they told me, "Sigil arrows won't work on this." And it turned out I was just a few pixels off and sigil arrows were 100% the solution. 🤦♂
The funniest thing about David Jaffe bitching about it, is that he is the type of person this concession was made for. Just go look at some highlights from his Metroid Dread playthrough. He makes DSP looks like a genius.
Oh god, this was also a problem in the Horizon Forbidden West and I hated it so much. I'm busy with other things, so I think I will have to wait for a bit before playing Ragnarok in hopes they will patch. // I just got to the point in the video where Ratatoskr talks about Horizon lol.
Horizon, which I otherwise love, had some really bad ones where Aloy talked so much her dialogue would back up in a queue, and by the time she finally said the hint you'd already finished the puzzle
This reminded me of watching my friend play through Skyrim many years ago. In the first dungeon most players are likely to go through, the one where you get the dragons stone and the first word of the fus ro da shout, you come to a room with a closed door that's opened with a pull chain right next to the door. My friend could not figure out how to get this door opened. At first I tried to give him some hints, but after a while I just sat back and watched the train wreck fascinated by him unable to figure out the pull chain opened the door, he even had the pull chain highlighted with the command to pull it on screen multiple times, but he never put 2 and 2 together, or even pulled it out of curiosity. Finally after about 10 minutes he got frustrated and went to get a drink, so while he was out of the room I grabbed the controller and pulled the chain. He was mystified when he came back to see the door open, and I told him I think it works on a timer because it just opened in its own, kind of stupid but Bethesda games are buggy so it probably wasn't supposed to be this long. To this day he still thinks that door opens after a set amount of time. When I remember that experience I can sympathize with developers going overboard to make sure players don't get frustrated at puzzles, but they need to make sure they don't insult a greater proportion of the audience by giving the solutions away than the protein of players they'd frustrate by withholding answers.
I paid pretty close attention to this during my playthrough. I don't like it at all, but I noticed it only really happened when they introduced a new mechanic or a new interactable object type, and you encounter it the first time after its introduced. Like for people that dont pay attention to on screen tutorials or didnt hear the NPC dialogue describing the mechanic. Which I kinda get, even though I don't particularly like it. A lot of the puzzles they said nothing no matter how long ypu waited. They made the puzzles much less obvious this time around. Some of them had me stumped for a while. Horizon was so so so much worse. Aloy would tell you the exact answer in like 2 seconds
A point worth mentioning Is that the hints basically humble all the efforts the team made to improve the puzzles from the previous game. Why make better puzzles if you are just gonna spoil them anyway? Also, they certainly don't want players to get stuck, but I would point out that the very premise of a puzzle *is* to be stuck and therefore unravel the problem. It's likes going through the effort of designing a labirynth and then add directions inside it
I feel a similar way when I'm struggling with a game, keep dying, and it's like "hey, do you wanna switch it to easy?" I can't help but feel insulted. No I don't want to switch it to easy, damn it. I'll keep slamming my head into this wall until either it breaks, or I do.
PS+ already has a feature to help people stuck in games. The devs should have known that if people were stuck they would use that or find the solution on youtube. They should have included an option and there's no excuse as for why there is not one. Ragnarok is still my GOTY and honestly this does not bother me much, but the criticism is valid
Easy fix, instead of giving the hint outright, when x time has passed, add an option to ask for it. Thus, if you’re stuck or you don’t care about puzzles you can get it out of the way, and if you still wanna figure it out you can.
i think it should have been a feature that you can turn on and off. hell, it would be fun if in character they ask "hey, you need some help" and Kratos being like "No..."
I just completed The Talos Principle (amazing game BTW). That game has some real "thinking outside the box" puzzles, which makes for some really mind bending experiences. If someone told me the solutions, it would completely ruin the experience.
Totally agree. The fact that they just don't put some options into the settings to modify the how much time should pass before a Little!! hint. It's a joke, really. I have bunch of examples of like going into the puzzle room, I literally absorbing what will be the task, not even seen the whole room yet and the companion has already begun saying what should I do (not even 40 sec has passed). It's really annoying. Especially to me, who enjoys the puzzles more, since the combat isn't even close to like a Bloodborne or Elden Ring combat.
2 cents is that beyond insulting the player it insults the dev's too. If you need to have constant hints and additional help it just means you made a bad puzzle. It wasn't signposted well enough, or designed clearly enough, etc. The puzzle is bad and hand holding is a crutch.
This is one of the reasons I haven't bought the game yet, that and I'm waiting for a price drop. But honestly this is so insufferable, I don't usually care for puzzles much in games but most of the puzzles I can remember throughout the god of war games weren't particularly difficult, especially the one's from these recent iterations. I can only imagine how annoying it would be to have my intelligence insulted consistently in a 40 some odd hour game 😂
I immediately got into the habit of turning my headset off and only using visual clues to solve them. Still only took like a minute from start to completion, not accounting for time that is neccessary to move from point to point to interact with the puzzle. Its a shame too because Mimir does sometime pop off with some humorous comments in the middle of them.
it so happens i just recently finished a game that did puzzles and hints comparably well. that game was castlevania: lords of shadow. in C:LoS, there are two types of puzzles. the boss-fight puzzles, and the dungeon progress puzzles, the latter of which was actually classified as puzzles by the game. combats used golden flashing markers to signal objects of importants. both types had scrolls you could find in the map, which would explain some things in a lorefriendly manner. actual puzzles always had a marker and a reward. you would be told upfront how many points (of the resource used for upgrades, which you otherwise got through combat) you would get for solving a puzzle. you then had the option to gain a hint, sometimes even the solution or the ability to skip the puzzle entirely, by giving up the reward. the game didnt push this on you; it simply gave the notice that the option is there once at the start of the puzzle, along with an incentive not to use it. if you then opened your inventory to go and unlock the hint, you would again be shown what your reward is for figuring it out without help. for all its flaws, that was a part i very much appreciated about that game. voiceover explanation where used only once; and that was in a training fight towards the end which was supposed to prepare you for the end boss. that boss would repeatedly shout „using your light and shadow magic is key to defeating me!“, but unlike the endboss the actual way to beat him was to just party him over and over.
Look what happened to Crosscode. People review bombed one of the best games bc the puzzles were challenging. My mind was blown on how good the puzzles were
If you, a brutal warrior, had the smartest head in the world on your hip and your teenage son as a companion seeking to prove himself, and they didn't chime in about how to solve puzzles, it would be far less realistic.
@@neurocapable not forcing them to not speak but don't have forced hints in puzzles (it would make sense for it to be a prompt to ask atreus what he thinks the answer is as kratos testing him but we don't get that we just have atreus immediately give the solution before you have any time to do the damn puzzle) if someone requires a hint have it as an option not something forced on EVERY player Let me emphasise this REALISM SHOULDN'T COME AT THE COST OF GAME DESIGN Have you tried something called suspending your disbelief
This hand holdy mentality bleeds into a lot of the rest of the game too, telling you when to go do side quests, button prompt traversal, Mimir telling you to use your shield etc. They might as well force the player into a cutscene QTE in which the game beats the enemies for you if you haven't beaten a combat encounter in 30 seconds. This game is truly the God of making me feel like a 6 year old.
It's really difficult to find the balance with such an open zone game about telling the player to go explore...in general, I think it's a good Idea to remind the player or to show him time windows where it's possible, because during some main story missions you can't just travel freely and it's kind of necessary to seperate those two game states. Another Problems this brings is with pacing and urgency of the story. In the beginning there often is no urgency, nothing needs to be done quick, but by the end, doing side stuff feels wrong, the main plot needs you, you can't just wander off...and then Mimir says you still have time and can look around...that was jarring. But yeah in general also with the infamous points of no return etc. it's not so simple to just trust the people...too many will be frustrated if they accidentally lock themselves out of content
Valid point. One way I look at the "hint timer" was the developers trying to speed up the pace of the game as much as possible, predicting that many players would get bored, give up, or have their immersion broken on the puzzle sections. Players coming into God of War for the combat and story may dread the puzzle sections, and the devs may be speeding shit along for them.
My brain immediately turns off once a puzzle with hints comes around. granted I've also played games where the puzzles were incredibly nebulous. But I'd prefer the frustration of not understanding then being told how to do it.
I grew up playing Wild Arms 3 and in that game, just finding the next dungeon could be a puzzle sometimes. That is to say nothing of the puzzles that were in those dungeons. Even the boss fights were puzzles at times too. The only hints you were given were sometimes in books that expand upon the lore and there was even an instance of needing to read those books to find statues that finally gave you a hint. Now that may havw been a bit too far in the other direction, but games were much better when they made you use your head.
Main character monologuing or self-narration is a blight on gaming. This is helped out slightly by having a child around to talk at, but the larger issue of bottom of the barrel exposition delivery often remains.
I'm reminded of all those "already doing that" moments I've had with game hint systems. Previous GOW included, I think. For that thing about markers near the end: I wish more games did the approach Frogwares has been doing. Having half or more of the markers being manual instead of the typical auto (especially mission markers).
My favorite bit is when I see a chest, go get it, and in the 15 seconds it takes to do that, the game spoils a completely unrelated puzzle just because I happened to be in that area.
You know its spicy when Ratatoskr intros with “Let me preface this…” As always, I appreciate the insight. I’d love to hear a ThinkTank regarding these topics with you and other creators who make similar insightful gaming content. Razbuten comes to mind. Cheers!
You may or may not already be aware that Jedi: Fallen Order had a few puzzles, and when you don't solve the puzzle quickly the game give you the option of asking for a hint without forcing it on you. That was a good decision in my opinion.
They figured out a solution to this problem over 20 years ago, in N64 Zelda games there's button prompt for when you WANT TO ASK for hints.
Exactly. As annoying as Navi could be with “Hey!” I didn’t have to use her. Good thoughts. I had the same ones.
@@matthewjalovick like it was annoying but at least it wasn't this
Exactly this.
I will be so happy if the NPC you ask say “You asking like I know the solution, duh”
Yeah Naughty Dog does a similar thing where after so long a prompt pops up asking you to press L3 to show you the hint. The player has to manually press it though if they want it which I think is a decent compromise.
I'll never forget that day in 1984 when the long Tetris block said "maybe you should put me on the far left"
Why would I do that, it will never help me with the high stack of irregular placed blocks because I’m too stupid to figure out how to clear more lines than one 😅
Far left? Sounds like communist propaganda to me. ☭
For those that don't know: They specifically made the hints in the game so blunt by using DSP as an example of the average player's puzzle solving ability.
If the average player can't figure these out without hints, we're fucked as a species.
Lmao classic they blurred him out but you could clearly see its him. This game is awful npc mcu tier trash.
@@k-ondoomer lol wut?
@@k-ondoomer You probably suck at Elden Ring.
@@GermanKinsmen lmao easiest souls game by a mile. I prefer sekiro myself but elden ring was great.
Honestly if they just made it so that you havta walk over to your npc companion to get a hint/have the characters talk brainstorm a solution, that would be perfect
That's genuinely a good idea. They say something along the lines of "I'll get a better angle" at the start of a puzzle, and then you can talk to them at any point for them to give out hints, pretty simple and unintrusive.
@@GreatBeanicus That's not an "idea". It's something implemented in games from 20 fuckin years ago. It's just that they don't trust you enough to push that button now apparently
So basically add a Navi.
@@TheSUGA1202 yes.
Seeing David Jaffe criticize environmental puzzles for being too easy is HYSTERICAL after the trouble he had getting through the first hour of Metroid Dread. That's pretty illuminating as to just how bad this problem has become.
If you took a break from playing video games and went outside for a bit you’d see most people are fuckin idiots. This is why I don’t
I was looking for someone to point that out hahaha
They need to add a setting to disable companion hints.
I expected the hints to be an accessibility option but its on by default.
Ironic how these movie games pride themselves on accessibility.
There is an easy way to fix this. If you are stuck you could just walk next to your partner and press square and they give you a hint. No need for extra option setting and you can just choose during gameplay if you need help.
"I want to go on a journey with others but I want them to be quiet and never contribute to problem-solving" is being presented as the more "realistic" option here.
@@xenmaster2203 Calling it a movie game is reaching a lil too far.
Interactive games are not the same as GoW.
@@neurocapable that's a bit of a false equivalence don't you think
No one is saying that it's just irritation about the game just straight up giving you the answer to a puzzle for 80% of the puzzles
I like how Elden Ring( just let you do whatever you want, + not much scenario) and GOW Ragnarök( Hand-holding/backsiting + a truly cinematic experience) philosophy is entirely different.
@AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH more like GoW focuses on handholding and flashy set pieces vs deep gameplay and narrative substance in ER
@@solidsnake9924 GOW has deep gameplay. I'd say it isn't as well implemented as ER, (mostly because the combination of enemy and arena design is questionable, and enemies don't flinch in a consistent way), but both games have very similar combat systems. GOW even has some things that I'd say are implemented better, like enemies that force you to use blocking, parrying, and dodging in the same fight, rather than allowing the player to cheese things through one set strategy.
@Kyle Smith I wouldn't consider their differences to be "genre" It's a different philosophy of what games should be, and what core aspects of game design
@AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH the hand holding part of GoW is just true though. They don’t trust their players to get through any encounter without developer help. Why am I still hearing from Mimir that I need to throw my axe at the glowing parts of enemies 30 hours into the game? Why can’t I sit somewhere for 3 min trying to figure out a puzzle without a companion chiming in. Their philosophy seems to be getting you through encounters as fast as possible at the expense of trusting the player. The game is great but they clearly have little faith in their player base.
@@solipsist3D Maybe because you weren't doing it? Not to exclusively call you an idiot (though you are one), I had Atreus tell me to use a shield against an attack... After I got killed trying to dodge it three times. If you're getting those hints 30 hours in, it's because the game has noticed that you aren't using the tools it gave you.
Indeed. If this were a human doing this, they'd immediately be called out for backseating!
It's an ingame character so it makes sense
@@RebornVengeancex I mean.. maybe after 15 or 20 failed attempts, the character might drop a hint or something. Doesn't need to be so immediate.
@@DMP89145 sure it should be optional
I love the OoT and MM dungeon music in this vid. Fits with the puzzle theme and its a callback to games that DON'T spoon-feed you the solution.
When I encountered a puzzle, my mind immediately went to "I got to figure this out in the next 10 seconds or my companion is going to tell me about how much of a dumbfuck I am" 😆
I honestly think the worst part is when they go 'great job!' after you follow their obvious advice. Like, what am I, a fucking group home client? Were people who live in licensed residential facilities the target audience of the game? I felt genuinely uncomfortable the first time Freya said that to me, and the _way_ she said it too. . . I didn't feel like I was playing God of War anymore. I felt like I was attending the Special Olympics. . . as a participant, and no shade to people who do just that, but I'm supposed to be playing as Kratos, and those two moods and tones are not remotely compatible with each other.
When my friend was playing Horizon: Zero Dawn he turned off the voice audio and the subtitles, because he was fed up with the back-seating from NPCs 😄
It's a lot worse in Forbidden West.
I did the same :)
Except that isnt even a thing in that game?
The puzzle solving in Ragnarok goes thus:
Enter puzzle area
Look around for 5 seconds
“Hmmm, I probably need to-“
Atreus: “HEY, MAYBE YOU SHOULD FREEZE THAT SHIT!”
I still haven't played this, but I was playing Miles Morales the other day and Miles wouldn't stop talking to himself about what he needs to do and how he plans to do it. I love that game to death, but I do wish I could turn off the hints.
Its funny cuz in the classic GOW games, if you cant figure out a puzzle quick enough, you just fuckin' die sometimes. We've really come a long way.
They even did that in 2018. Tyr's temple, and a couple of other places, come to mind.
@@stupidanon5941that part pissed me off, but then again it was 4 am and I didn't want to use my brain lol. The roots caught me off guard
wow, I can't believe northern mithology referenced your channel, good job man
The silly part of this issue is that according to a few devs on twitter, the timer before you start getting hints isn't based on the reasonable amount of time they expect an average player to find the solution, but rather on the amount of time it takes the investors (who often aren't video game players) to express frustration during their playtest sessions. Since they have a lot of power over the validation process, devs can't just turn a blind eye on their complaints and have to find a quick fix to please them, hence the obnoxious hints.
that’s fucking stupid
Yeah that explains the hints that happen 20 seconds after I enter the room
They could give an option to turn them off though. There’s an accessibility option for nearly everything else.
Yeah dude they totally got a group of investors to come in and do play test lmao
Ah, so the game was made for investors first, and to gamers as an afterthought, I get it.
It's even more of an insult that they won't let you turn the hints off. Like "no you can't possibly figure this shit out Stoopid" 😂
Stop crying buddy
@@bevanmcnicholl2525 You shouldn't feel embarrassed about needing the hints. You're just right in line with their target audience.
@@bevanmcnicholl2525 Stop being a prick.
@@smalltrashman4227 aww buddy
@@bevanmcnicholl2525 I'm not your buddy. You are an arrogant child.
This game has every accessibility option known to man except ‘I have a brain’
The hilarious part about David Jaffe having this take is that they renamed the famous "noob wall" room in Metroid Dread the "Jaffe room" after a complete opposite take. The room requires you to shoot an otherwise unmarked wall to proceed forward. The game tells you this will be a thing throughout on one of the first screens, and follows through. But this one does have reason to shoot at it, there is an enemy crawling across it that can be a pain and you can see a path on the other side with enemies too.
He claimed the game never prepared you for this moment, never even hinted at the fact you could do this, and it would have been useful to have something hint it while you were there. Sure he was nade fun of for it, but Jaffe might have indirectly been the reason for this design choice in Ragnarok in particular.
Retired old men with failing faculties should never be what a videogame be designed around.
The best part about this is that they have a video discussing this and their example was a blurred out video of xqc (Big time twitch streamer for those unaware) struggling to do a basic ass puzzle in the first game,
Fast forward to now and he’s still struggling with the puzzles even with the hints 😂
Thats when you know it wasnt the games problem but the persons lmao
They should be looking at feedback other than from streamers. Obviously streamers will have a harder time, as they generally have to multitask more than the average person playing.
They will almost never find any valuable critiques from a popular streamer or journalist reviewers. Streamers just frankly do not think about that shit and journalist reviews will mindlessly shower a game with praise with little to no mention of a games potential faults.
Devs and producers mistakenly thinking twitch streamers are a good representative sample......
Also we have to acknowledge that many streamers act stupid on purpose to prolong a game and hence Garner more donations. Viewers enjoy watching someone fuck up.
Horizon Forbidden West became a chore because of Aloy's ceaseless chatter.
I don't really see it as being told I'm stupid when they immediately give hints or full on solutions.
I feel like they rob me of the challenges I paid them for.
It feels like buying a 2000 pcs puzzle, opening the box and have an unasked for included nanoswarm just laying it out in front of my eyes 😡 I haven't finished Horizon Forbidden West because I don't wanna be with Aloy anymore. That great character I loved so much from Zero Dawn. What a way to utterly toxify a character 🤕
yeah, I wasn't feeling this "they tell me I'm stupid" part either. Especially because they are so quick to give hints, that you just realize no one can be that quick, I didn't even realize this was a puzzle xD
Agreed 100% on the hints.
Beyond just that though, whenever I do puzzles in GoWR I'm just wondering "why are these puzzles even here?"... they seem completely pointless to me it's like they're just trying to fill up play time
I also fell asleep yesterday climbing a giant wall 😂... I can't believe how much dead time Ragnarok has, between cutscenes, climbing, chatting, rowing, crawling, etc.
holy shit...lol...whenever i catch myself falling asleep at a games section i really get demotivated to even open it up again...
I think the bigger point is that these developers perceive the most important aspect of their game to be the story. They don't want you to spend too much time on puzzles because it's not that important to the experience; the important part is the narrative. they're telling you "don't worry about it man, just move on, we know you just want to see what happens next in the story or see the next cinematic set piece." Hell, the puzzles aren't very good, creative, or interesting anyway.
This begs the question: if the most important part of your game is the story (the cutscenes, scripted sequences, walking talking moments etc..), which is all something a movie can do, but better, then where's the value in this being a game. Why not just make a movie/TV show, if the story is really that important to you.
Because nowadays if you make a movie game people think it's better than an actual game
This. F-ers make us push their f-ing movie through.
Disagree. The puzzles are creative, good, and interesting, even if they're not brain-busters.
@@Valosken I mean that was only a fraction of the point I was making....But really?? throwing your axe from a certain position to hit all the vines, or freezing some water or a gear in place is creative and interesting to you?
Compare that to something like Outer Wilds, where they use concepts of quantum mechanics as the basis for their puzzle. Now that's a wild idea.
@@lucideclair6690 I too wish Kratos dabbled in quantum mechanics
I'm in that 1% you mentioned. I'm puzzle challenged, I mean to the extreme. I'ts like my brain just locks up, and fails to see the most obvious things, it's bizarre. I guess it's for that reason that I hate puzzles. And I _need_ hints most times, or sometimes I just outright need the solution, or I would spend hours, and still not figure it out on my own. With that said I understand that some people actually like puzzles, and solutions shouldn't be pushed on anyone, it should always be optional, and you should be able to outright turn hints off.
Or better yet have an option or button to turn them on or prompt a follower or something to give you a hint/solution
My partner hate puzzles, but more than that she is unable to handle frustration. She immediately locks up mentally when anything confuses or frustrates her, which is why she cant handle difficult combat like Elden Ring or any kind of puzzle in games. This kind of hint thing is perfect for her. It would massively piss me off though. I love being frustrated.
@@xdearlifex It's not a good kind of frustration for me I'm more like her. It's kind of funny really, because the puzzle sections are supposed to be downtime between combat to relax, but for me, it's much more frustrating than combat, and I just can't wait to get past it.
@@babayaga4320 that's really interesting. Why do you think your brain locks up when you hit a puzzle?
My partner is a very smart person, so I dont think it has anything to do with intelligence.
@@xdearlifex I don't know, I'm low on the spectrum, but I don't think autism directly affects puzzle solving. The only way I can describe it that when I'm confronted with a puzzle, I'm instantly looking for very specific and very intricate solutions, when the answer is usually not nearly as complicated, and when I think something should work a certain way, and it doesn't, I just start to get really frustrated, and then I'm not exactly thinking clearly at that point. So, I guess overthinking puzzles is part of it, combined with preconceived notions I have that something must work this specific way, that my brain is unwilling to let go of.
Haven't played the game yet; but for me in similar cases where this does happen, as it does happen often nowadays, I don't feel like the game is indirectly making me feel stupid, I rather just roll my eyes at the game for the lack of choice whether we get a hint or not. The moment the hint is automatically given everytime, it calls the point of the mechanic into question. WHat's the point of us trying to even do ANY puzzles if the answer is given. There's no joy or sense of satisfaction in the game telling you the answer to a puzzle. Might as well not even create the obstacle to begin with. Hope they patch this to a button prompt soon.
So glad this is getting talked about more. I hate being given hints too quickly to puzzles. I like to take my time and play around with the puzzle mechanics. The last game I played that did something like this was Jedi Fallen Order, but they give you a button to press if you want a hint, instead of a timer. That's so much better. Let the player choose when they feel stuck.
Having no hint system at all is what I would prefer, Odyssean self control and such, but it makes sense for AAA games to always have a way to help people get unstuck if they're really just not getting a puzzle. But please make it an option, and preferably not the default
They could've at least delayed the hints at higher difficulties.
I selected "No Mercy" - that should apply to the puzzles as well.
Silent Hill had a separate difficulty slider just for puzzles. It was a perfect system.
Sometimes, I wish more games learned from the Prince of Persia 2008(?) reboot. You have a companion the entire time, but you choose when you want to talk to them. There's just a dedicated button for banter and stuff and it's all context sensitive, about an area or whatever. It would be a solution to this problem too. You could hit it when you WANT a hint.
There are tradeoffs and such. It's been many years, but I think they will also show a prompt for the button when the companion wants to talk about something. But even then, you don't have to. I guess they are worried people might 'miss' something? But then you need to make sure that your story is being told in other ways too, even with the world itself.
Zelda did this literally 20 years ago. You could choose to ask for a hint. And yet these Sony exclusives supposedly push boundaries, break new grounds in gaming... What a joke.
Reminds me of the radio in the Metal Gear Solid series
@@john_michael97 Yeah, kinda like that, but a little less menu-y etc. Was more dynamic cause you could also keep moving and doing stuff while they talked.
@@Kasaaz That’s fair, it’s just another example of a hints system that actually requires you to engage with it rather than shoving them in your face unprompted.
Just let the player ask Atreus for hints, it's so simple. The devs can play it off as Kratos seeing how smart his son is, can he see the solution? It would give players full control over whether they want hints, and increase the ludonarriative harmony
I enjoy playing my games slowly and without guides. Taking in all the graphics, looking for secrets, how I believe most games are intended to be played. I am always hours below the average HowLongToBeat. I see no reason to rush through my games and turn them into an experience I can get for free on UA-cam/Twitch Lets Plays when I buy my games to be played organically. Discovering things yourself and overcoming challenge and failure to create success is some of the best feelings a videogame can offer. This modern trend of shoving the solution in front of the player's face, regardless if they want it or not, is beyond obnoxious design and feels something done for non gamers.
The funny thing is that the original God of War trilogy was one of the shining examples of how puzzles should be done. Difficult enough to give you a challenge, and very few to no hints. Kind of funny how they didn't follow that part of the formula that makes God of War successful. I still think God of War Ragnorak is one of the best games I've ever played and I feel the puzzles took a hit because they wanted to focus on other aspects of the game. So it didn't bother me too much, but I see the point.
They could just do it like in Jedi fallen order. You can ask for a puzzle tip if you want to, but give us the choice. Some people don't like spending ages on puzzles, and that's fine, they can ask for the hint to move on. But if you want to take your time, give us that choice too.
Them watching DSP’s streams to analyse God of War gameplay makes sense now. This is the fruit of that labour.
The fact that they think that the Average person is like DSP makes me want to not buy their game at all.
I completely agree. I like to look at everything and enjoy taking my time with the exploration and puzzle solving. Should add an option to turn off hints
My companion telling me "maybe you should try your spear" as I am lining up my spear shot, gets kind of annoying. Especially when it hasn't been 15 seconds since we got to the area.
Remember this is a game of the year contender
It's funny you bring up Elden Ring secret areas. Ragnarok also has a lot of secret optional areas, not as hidden as in Elden Ring but still far off the beaten path. But when it's a puzzle suddenly the NPC's become kindergarten teachers
Its not about just secret areas, its about unique game design that costs a lot of money being put off the beaten path and risked to be missed. That just shows that some developers trust in their players, others dont
I feel the same way, puzzle hints are super annoying, almost as much as the climbing and crawling they have to hide loading screens or as downtime for dialog. if they want a pause for more dialog just give me a cutscene.
They have to have the crawling/shimming spaces to load stuff because its also a PS4 game
This began to irk me really badly halfway through the game. And to think I saw so many PS5 fanboys coping going ''This really is a PS5 game. Last gen owners won't know what it's like to play this properly.'' Sony fanboys went from shitting on every other platform to even shitting on their own last gen just to defend this game. Amazing.
@@TheStraightestWhitest didnt bother me really. People complain about everything. Elden Ring was amazing too and theres videos all over the internet shitting on it too
Ragnarok has the same phenomenon as Skyrim. The game spells everything out for you, so you're shocked when the game trusts you to think. There was one puzzle where you have to get creative and lure a monster as bait into a cage. It took me a few minutes to figure out because I was searching for the interactable that would trigger mimir to explain it for me. It was nice to have a puzzle where they don't tell you everything
Stones of barenziar be like
Exactly this. That puzzle took me 48 minutes simply because the game was suddenly expecting me to make an actual leap in thinking based on nothing but visual hints from the area. Now that would normally be fantastic game design. In a game like Darksiders 2, it'd have been a welcome addition. But that's speaking normally. Not when the game has held your hand for 80% of it and then suddenly refuses to give your companion any dialogue suggesting what you are to do. This made me think that the answer wasn't in the area I was searching in, not because I couldn't figure it out if I'd tried, but because I got so used to companions making suggestions once I was in the right area that their lack of it made me think I wasn't in the right area to solve the puzzle since many puzzles in God of War need to be accessed from a different place.
It's one of the worst pieces of game design I've ever seen. It's like they coupled all their previous design choices (being able to see the right place to solve a puzzle but not access it + companion hints when you're in the right place) only to pull them away for a massive ''F*ck you!'' moment. Really weird.
@@TheStraightestWhitest yeah it depends highly on the game's context and the difficulty that the game has set and when that is changed without warning it completely throws the player off
At least in the case of A NEW HAND TOUCHES THE BEACON, Meridia telling you what to do served more as a motive to complete the quest than assistance in figuring it out.
Maybe college’s and companies should make Ragnarok puzzles a part of their application process.
One game that does a good job with puzzle hints is Jedi Fallen Order, you have to ask for hints to even get one and most of the time the hints just reaffirm your idea. The game has relatively easy puzzles but sometimes you won’t be sure you’re on the right track so it’s helpful to be told your doing it the right way. You don’t feel like you’re just wasting time but you also don’t feel stupid.
Still felt dumber when I adjusted the “puzzle hint timing” to Extended+.
They don't do this, because they want to make you feel stupid - they simply adjust to modern audiences level of intelligence.
Because it's a movie, and movies need to keep a certain pace. No time for interaction, we need to get to the next cutscene. I mean bossfight.
Eh, same thing.
Old man squirrel climbs down from his ancient tree to yell at the youngens and their newfangled vidja gayms
I've recently started playing persona 5, and it's a great game, probably the best jrpg I've played in a long time. However, the puzzle solving is so annoying, I've got an annoying cat telling me what to do before I even get to look around. Really my only complaint, other than a few unlikable companions, was I didn't feel like a thief, I felt like Dora the explorer
Jedi fallen order had the good sense to ask if you wanted a hint from BD-1, which you could always decline.
I'm so happy he mentioned the squirrel
"We don't want anyone getting stuck on these."
"These are not the selling point of the game."
"These are not the parts that you want to get to."
Then don't fucking include them to begin with.
Alos, give people a mandatory Bayonetta Easy Mode while you are at it, since you consider us so stupid.
The dev in GOW thought of everything. They know that people are going to backseat the puzzle solution for the streamer/player they watch online. So they made the game did it itself before the chat could even type the answer.
Truly magnificent how the backseat proof technology has become. 10/10 GOTY.
Oh wait, it is not intended to prevent backseat?
I was walking into a puzzle (it wasn't even hard but still require throwing axe at difference location to freeze stuff) and just looked at the thing for like 10 seconds then Mimir/Atreus started talking "May be we can..." and the fun died with it.
I remember when I played the first GOW many years ago at the store. I was very young (probably 8-9, I know it is way under the recommended age) and couldn't solve a puzzle that require me to push stuff left and right so I stopped playing and watched other people played instead. It was fun even though I couldn't continue it myself. Unlike this.
If the devs don't want people stuck in their puzzles, then they shouldn't include puzzles to begin with. Getting stuck is a part of the solving process of any puzzle, like, that's the whole point of a puzzle, that you have to figure it out. If you just enter the room and know right away what you have to do to progress, then it is not a puzzle. It amazes me, like why include puzzles in your game if you do not want your players to have "the puzzle experience" (which again, includes getting stuck sometimes)?
I would hate this when I play portal, for example, but I couldn't care less about this in a game that doesn't list itself as a puzzle game. I'm forced to do puzzles and my purely default response is apathy. You said it best, the puzzles aren't the appeal... they're just there. I know people that hate text-to-speech on tiktok or exposition narration in a movie, but they just don't register with me as an issue.
the problem is not that they give you hints, the problem is that you have no choice but listening to them, you can close your eyes, you'll hear them, you can shut the sound off, you'll see it. A good game is a game where you have a choice
they could have just put Atreus at the entrance of the puzzle room, with a voiceline saying " don't mind asking me, maybe I could help you " or something like that
I grew up playing zelda games, if I hear a f npc giving me the solution without my consent, I would be just as your friend, and shut the console down, or changing game for few hours
5:40 That’s the problem, in the original GOW 1&2 , the puzzles (some of which, failures will lead to death) are a big part of the appeal of the game rather than a mere “combat break”. Current modern game puzzles are getting generic and standardised, it’s a problem. Santa Monica have forgotten their roots.
I was playing through CrossCode recently (side note: play CrossCode) and one of the things that stuck out to me was how weird it felt for a game to trust me to figure out puzzles again. I would walk into a room, and my brain was so trained to expect the game to make the solution obvious to me that if I didn't figure it out within the first minute or two, I actually started to get annoyed. But then when I finally pieced together how the puzzle worked and managed to solve it, it felt SO GOOD. Really hate this trend, so glad that its starting to get talked about more. Having a hint system is fine but let me opt-in to it. Don't make standard.
You should try the Legend of Zelda series. The entire series is built around trusting you to figure out the puzzles yourself (except for one standout exception).
Breath of the Wild is especially good.
@@L337N1NJ4L1NK So, I _hate_ Breath of the Wild, for two reasons. One, the durability/survival component on weapons. Like, I find that _heart-breaking_ . If it wasn't for that and one other component of the game, I'd probably play it. The other thing I don't like, is the fact that the enemies are machines. It takes away the magic of the world.
Am I wrong? Should I try the game anyway? Is it worth it despite those two problems? Would I see the Master Sword and get to use it without using it _up_ ?
@@stupidanon5941 the first point is pretty understandable as it pissed many people off, but it was built in to make the player more resourceful and constantly explore the world other than claim the best weapon and play it the whole game. For the second, that's really on you as it is a pretty big nitpick, machinery isn't unique to Breath of the Wild as there were even trains in the sequal of wind waker
@@stupidanon5941 Well, I won't lie, weapon durability is rather annoying from an outside perspective. But once you get used to the game it isn't all that much of an issue since the game throws weapons at you like candy. The only exception to this is the Master Sword, which does have durability but "recharges" after being depleted. It however does have more than enough to clear the dungeons on a single "charge" so you don't need to worry about that.
As for the machines, I can get where you are coming from there too. They're more like magi-tech than just regular technology but if you don't like the feel you just don't like it.
In my opinion, Breath of the Wild is one of the best games ever made and is a strong contender for my favorite game of all time. If you have the ability to borrow a friend's copy or sail the high seas to try it out, I'd give it a shot.
It can be a God of War hitpiece for all I care. This shit is a problem. My favorite puzzle game is by far Darksiders 2. They are ridiculously well designed. Genre standard. It annoyed the piss out of me that God of War, specifically Ragnarok, made countless puzzles downright weird to solve (rather than forcing you to think logically and make steps and leaps in your thinking) and then just had NPCs say ''wait what if you do that?'' It's like they'd already developed them by the time they playtested them, realized they were shit and nonsensical, and then just added some dialogue from your companion(s) to help you solve them.
We know Sony likes handholding in their exclusives, but this one did it to an insulting extent.
I like when games ask if you want a hint. It’s very annoying when it just tells you…
"Dumb babies too stupid to figure out our ezpz puzzles 2 seconds after entering the room!"
I mean your NPC companion is always there with you I think adding a prompt that says "Ask Atreus what he thinks" is a more than acceptable solution to this.
They already had one section of the game have one NPC control an elevator and all you needed to do was press square when you looked at your companion. Having the player place their curser over the NPC and make them press the R3 button (the button assigned to way-pointing if enabled) to ask for hints i think is doable.
When I was watching a playthrough of Ragnarök, and not even playing myself, I was annoyed by the constant hand-holding during puzzles. The player was also playing on the hardest difficulty and it seemingly didn't affect the puzzles at all.
Also, I instantly thought of you when I saw Ratatoskr in the game.
What's worse is that sometimes the unsolicited NPC dialogue misleads you. One time they told me, "Sigil arrows won't work on this." And it turned out I was just a few pixels off and sigil arrows were 100% the solution. 🤦♂
What they meant is "sigil arrows won't work on this PIXEL" ya stoopid.
:D
Anyone remember the cartoon Dexter's Laboratory?
"You are stupid, you are stupid, and don't forget, you are stuuuupid!"
OMG I can't believe they added you as an NPC holy shit 😂😂😂
The funniest thing about David Jaffe bitching about it, is that he is the type of person this concession was made for. Just go look at some highlights from his Metroid Dread playthrough. He makes DSP looks like a genius.
Oh god, this was also a problem in the Horizon Forbidden West and I hated it so much. I'm busy with other things, so I think I will have to wait for a bit before playing Ragnarok in hopes they will patch. // I just got to the point in the video where Ratatoskr talks about Horizon lol.
Horizon, which I otherwise love, had some really bad ones where Aloy talked so much her dialogue would back up in a queue, and by the time she finally said the hint you'd already finished the puzzle
Zero Dawn was good. Forbidden West was a legit 4/10 to me. Both gameplay and story somehow regressed. At least it looked visually stunning.
Love the thumb nail so much, perfectly sums up triple a games these days
You are correct the first time i saw Ratatoskr i thought "omg!! my fav youtuber is in this game??"
This reminded me of watching my friend play through Skyrim many years ago. In the first dungeon most players are likely to go through, the one where you get the dragons stone and the first word of the fus ro da shout, you come to a room with a closed door that's opened with a pull chain right next to the door. My friend could not figure out how to get this door opened. At first I tried to give him some hints, but after a while I just sat back and watched the train wreck fascinated by him unable to figure out the pull chain opened the door, he even had the pull chain highlighted with the command to pull it on screen multiple times, but he never put 2 and 2 together, or even pulled it out of curiosity. Finally after about 10 minutes he got frustrated and went to get a drink, so while he was out of the room I grabbed the controller and pulled the chain. He was mystified when he came back to see the door open, and I told him I think it works on a timer because it just opened in its own, kind of stupid but Bethesda games are buggy so it probably wasn't supposed to be this long. To this day he still thinks that door opens after a set amount of time.
When I remember that experience I can sympathize with developers going overboard to make sure players don't get frustrated at puzzles, but they need to make sure they don't insult a greater proportion of the audience by giving the solutions away than the protein of players they'd frustrate by withholding answers.
I paid pretty close attention to this during my playthrough. I don't like it at all, but I noticed it only really happened when they introduced a new mechanic or a new interactable object type, and you encounter it the first time after its introduced. Like for people that dont pay attention to on screen tutorials or didnt hear the NPC dialogue describing the mechanic. Which I kinda get, even though I don't particularly like it. A lot of the puzzles they said nothing no matter how long ypu waited. They made the puzzles much less obvious this time around. Some of them had me stumped for a while. Horizon was so so so much worse. Aloy would tell you the exact answer in like 2 seconds
A point worth mentioning Is that the hints basically humble all the efforts the team made to improve the puzzles from the previous game. Why make better puzzles if you are just gonna spoil them anyway?
Also, they certainly don't want players to get stuck, but I would point out that the very premise of a puzzle *is* to be stuck and therefore unravel the problem. It's likes going through the effort of designing a labirynth and then add directions inside it
I feel a similar way when I'm struggling with a game, keep dying, and it's like "hey, do you wanna switch it to easy?" I can't help but feel insulted. No I don't want to switch it to easy, damn it. I'll keep slamming my head into this wall until either it breaks, or I do.
Thats why my friend, good games dont have difficulty option. Good games trust the players and respect their intelligence
So great to see my favorite UA-camr in god of war didn’t know you had a eye patch!
The most ambitious crossover ever: @ProZD and @Ratatoskr ;)
who would have guessed backseating implementd in a game would be annoying?
I balmer Darksyde Phil for the puzzle hints being so short.
PS+ already has a feature to help people stuck in games. The devs should have known that if people were stuck they would use that or find the solution on youtube. They should have included an option and there's no excuse as for why there is not one. Ragnarok is still my GOTY and honestly this does not bother me much, but the criticism is valid
Easy fix, instead of giving the hint outright, when x time has passed, add an option to ask for it. Thus, if you’re stuck or you don’t care about puzzles you can get it out of the way, and if you still wanna figure it out you can.
i think it should have been a feature that you can turn on and off. hell, it would be fun if in character they ask "hey, you need some help" and Kratos being like "No..."
This is what happens when you treat your players like idiots.
I just completed The Talos Principle (amazing game BTW).
That game has some real "thinking outside the box" puzzles, which makes for some really mind bending experiences. If someone told me the solutions, it would completely ruin the experience.
Totally agree. The fact that they just don't put some options into the settings to modify the how much time should pass before a Little!! hint. It's a joke, really. I have bunch of examples of like going into the puzzle room, I literally absorbing what will be the task, not even seen the whole room yet and the companion has already begun saying what should I do (not even 40 sec has passed). It's really annoying. Especially to me, who enjoys the puzzles more, since the combat isn't even close to like a Bloodborne or Elden Ring combat.
2 cents is that beyond insulting the player it insults the dev's too.
If you need to have constant hints and additional help it just means you made a bad puzzle.
It wasn't signposted well enough, or designed clearly enough, etc. The puzzle is bad and hand holding is a crutch.
This is one of the reasons I haven't bought the game yet, that and I'm waiting for a price drop. But honestly this is so insufferable, I don't usually care for puzzles much in games but most of the puzzles I can remember throughout the god of war games weren't particularly difficult, especially the one's from these recent iterations. I can only imagine how annoying it would be to have my intelligence insulted consistently in a 40 some odd hour game 😂
Isn't David the same one who got so annoyed cuz he couldn't figure out how to complete the very first puzzle room in Metroid dread?
I immediately got into the habit of turning my headset off and only using visual clues to solve them.
Still only took like a minute from start to completion, not accounting for time that is neccessary to move from point to point to interact with the puzzle.
Its a shame too because Mimir does sometime pop off with some humorous comments in the middle of them.
it so happens i just recently finished a game that did puzzles and hints comparably well. that game was castlevania: lords of shadow.
in C:LoS, there are two types of puzzles. the boss-fight puzzles, and the dungeon progress puzzles, the latter of which was actually classified as puzzles by the game.
combats used golden flashing markers to signal objects of importants. both types had scrolls you could find in the map, which would explain some things in a lorefriendly manner. actual puzzles always had a marker and a reward.
you would be told upfront how many points (of the resource used for upgrades, which you otherwise got through combat) you would get for solving a puzzle. you then had the option to gain a hint, sometimes even the solution or the ability to skip the puzzle entirely, by giving up the reward. the game didnt push this on you; it simply gave the notice that the option is there once at the start of the puzzle, along with an incentive not to use it. if you then opened your inventory to go and unlock the hint, you would again be shown what your reward is for figuring it out without help.
for all its flaws, that was a part i very much appreciated about that game.
voiceover explanation where used only once; and that was in a training fight towards the end which was supposed to prepare you for the end boss. that boss would repeatedly shout „using your light and shadow magic is key to defeating me!“, but unlike the endboss the actual way to beat him was to just party him over and over.
Look what happened to Crosscode. People review bombed one of the best games bc the puzzles were challenging. My mind was blown on how good the puzzles were
If you, a brutal warrior, had the smartest head in the world on your hip and your teenage son as a companion seeking to prove himself, and they didn't chime in about how to solve puzzles, it would be far less realistic.
Realism =/= better
If you have a puzzle give the player ample time to complete it before offering hints no exceptions
@@K40005 enforced mutism among companions. Got it.
@@neurocapable not forcing them to not speak but don't have forced hints in puzzles (it would make sense for it to be a prompt to ask atreus what he thinks the answer is as kratos testing him but we don't get that we just have atreus immediately give the solution before you have any time to do the damn puzzle) if someone requires a hint have it as an option not something forced on EVERY player
Let me emphasise this REALISM SHOULDN'T COME AT THE COST OF GAME DESIGN
Have you tried something called suspending your disbelief
Excessive amount of mandatory puzzles are doing the game disservice, it bogged down the overall pacing
This hand holdy mentality bleeds into a lot of the rest of the game too, telling you when to go do side quests, button prompt traversal, Mimir telling you to use your shield etc. They might as well force the player into a cutscene QTE in which the game beats the enemies for you if you haven't beaten a combat encounter in 30 seconds. This game is truly the God of making me feel like a 6 year old.
It's really difficult to find the balance with such an open zone game about telling the player to go explore...in general, I think it's a good Idea to remind the player or to show him time windows where it's possible, because during some main story missions you can't just travel freely and it's kind of necessary to seperate those two game states. Another Problems this brings is with pacing and urgency of the story. In the beginning there often is no urgency, nothing needs to be done quick, but by the end, doing side stuff feels wrong, the main plot needs you, you can't just wander off...and then Mimir says you still have time and can look around...that was jarring.
But yeah in general also with the infamous points of no return etc. it's not so simple to just trust the people...too many will be frustrated if they accidentally lock themselves out of content
Everyone else has said this already but, this could literally just be solved by an opt out/in, it's actually baffling that that's not what they did
God of AI assisted puzzles.
Im just suprised how they managed to get you into the game Rata. You are leagues above these devs. I didnt expect such a high profile cameo
Valid point. One way I look at the "hint timer" was the developers trying to speed up the pace of the game as much as possible, predicting that many players would get bored, give up, or have their immersion broken on the puzzle sections. Players coming into God of War for the combat and story may dread the puzzle sections, and the devs may be speeding shit along for them.
My brain immediately turns off once a puzzle with hints comes around. granted I've also played games where the puzzles were incredibly nebulous. But I'd prefer the frustration of not understanding then being told how to do it.
I grew up playing Wild Arms 3 and in that game, just finding the next dungeon could be a puzzle sometimes. That is to say nothing of the puzzles that were in those dungeons. Even the boss fights were puzzles at times too.
The only hints you were given were sometimes in books that expand upon the lore and there was even an instance of needing to read those books to find statues that finally gave you a hint.
Now that may havw been a bit too far in the other direction, but games were much better when they made you use your head.
its like when the toilet auto-flushes before you sit down.
I remember jedi fallen order had bd1 give hints for puzzles but you had to actually press a button in order to hear them
Main character monologuing or self-narration is a blight on gaming. This is helped out slightly by having a child around to talk at, but the larger issue of bottom of the barrel exposition delivery often remains.
I'm reminded of all those "already doing that" moments I've had with game hint systems. Previous GOW included, I think.
For that thing about markers near the end: I wish more games did the approach Frogwares has been doing. Having half or more of the markers being manual instead of the typical auto (especially mission markers).
My favorite bit is when I see a chest, go get it, and in the 15 seconds it takes to do that, the game spoils a completely unrelated puzzle just because I happened to be in that area.
You know its spicy when Ratatoskr intros with “Let me preface this…” As always, I appreciate the insight. I’d love to hear a ThinkTank regarding these topics with you and other creators who make similar insightful gaming content. Razbuten comes to mind.
Cheers!
You may or may not already be aware that Jedi: Fallen Order had a few puzzles, and when you don't solve the puzzle quickly the game give you the option of asking for a hint without forcing it on you. That was a good decision in my opinion.
As soon as i saw the squirrel i was waiting for him to make a comment about it!