It's strange to me to be able to remember a time before learning about Christianity... I was indoctrinated before I could speak or form memories. Took me into my 40s to finally let it go. Thanks, GG, fantastic video! Great points!
Hey Godless Granny, Thanks for this video, as always I love you slightly sarcastic take on these apologists. It speaks volumes that the majority of honest beilevers who go in and examine these things as scholars end up not believing anymore. I know this is the case with Erhman because I subscribe to his channel too. Apologetics is inherently dishonest. Thanks again!
Approximately 300 years after the death of "Jesus" the longest game of telephone started. The starting message was never 100% right to begin with. How anyone can base their life on this is so beyond me now. I grew up in the Bible belt and was a conservative Christian up until I moved out of my parents house. My deconstruction was very fast. I guess I always had doubts so it wasn't that hard for me. If only I could get my mom to see how her life would be so much better without god in it. It'll never happen I'm pretty sure. Loved the video GG!
After 300 years Christianity was taken up by a failing empire to help unify and support it. The Roman government was very authoritarian and rigidly hierarchical - as the religious right would like our government to be. Two thousand years on, can't we form a religion that doesn't require denial of reality or loathing of sex?
But it’s not the longest game of telephone. Have you ever heard of books? They have been around for a long time. You can read first century Christian writings. The scrolls based on your science are pre Christ and predict him. While I will agree Protestant theology is a joke and should set off bells this does not in total disprove the Bible or God. Just in all your comment is based on modern atheist myth not actual reality.
My now-ex is an academic, and I read a lot of her work - PhD thesis, books, chapters, articles. In Oxford I was part of the spouses group, which was still called the wives group. (Talked with woman who'd been involved in the early days of computing, when memory was a literal net of little magnets.)
@@rexnemo Actually, it was on topics that I find fascinating, which I guess is why we got together in the first place. Medieval Chinese history, and at least the Eurasian parts of World medieval history.
@@mikeharrison1868 That is interesting , I have studied Chinese language for some years as a hobby and can quite see why you find the country and its history intriguing .
Ben Shaw - PhD in Theology from Liberty University, which requires a statement of faith (i.e. staff promise that all their research will lead to the conclusion that the Bible is true). Runs an apologetics organisation that uses Gary Habermas' 'minimal facts' to help doubting Christians retain their faith. Definitely someone who can be relied on to provide scholarly analysis.
I has occurred to me that the famous (forged!) verse in 2 Tim. 3:16, "all scripture is inspired from God', doesn't actually state that this means that all scripture is literally true. You can't really derive a concept of literal inerrancy from that verse. Only that God inspired the words... I saw an interview with John J. Collins once, a leading OT scholar, about the "historicity" of Noah's flood. The interviewer was a fundamentalist wanting the flood to be historical, and Prof. Collins asked him, "Why should God not inspire an author to write down a myth?". I thought that was a really good point.
Sean McDowell and Frank Turek are two sides of the same coin, they're equally arrogant equally wrong, and have equal measures of blood on their hands, BUT Turek presents externally as an insufferable prick, while McDowell has such a pleasant veneer that it's easy to miss the disingenuousness and evil that lurks underneath.
I remember learning about this topic years ago and finding the apologists' explanations to not be credible despite their "PhDs" or other academic "credentials" due to the Statements of Faith these supposed scholars have to sign at Xtian institutions. These scholars are tainted with bias as a result and I can't take them seriously.
I always love apologists who talk about the number of copies of the same text as if that proved anything. The first printing of On the Origin of Species was 1250 copies (and sold out in one day). That's not the data we use to know that evolution is real. But sheer number of copies is all the evidence they need for the New Testament, I guess.
I read my husband's academic works on fiber reinforced polymers used in structural repair of bridges and his work on ethics and philosophy in educating engineering students. It's good stuff. He is very informative on infrastructure and transportation.
@@MossyMozart It's hard, but not too hard-like a ballpen. I use 6B for marginalia to drive librarians slightly crazier. It could have been a scalpel, but it would have left my DNA.
Thank you for bringing the truths about and dangers of christianity to light. I rejected christianity in 1992 after i was coerced into baptism by my in-laws. I resorted to pagan beliefs after that and chose to be ordained by the Universal Life Church so i could perform weddings and Handfastings. Along with ordination, i chose to take the Dr of Divinity course which was nothing more than an honorary degree ☹️. I still perform secular weddings and Handfastings for atheists, same-sex and secular folks because I love the joy that I share with my clients in starting a new chapter in their lives.
31:19 When I was a teenager reading this passage, I always wondered how a believer could work up the nerve to translate the book of Revelation, because it'd be pretty impossible to translate without adding or removing by accident. Being a rather risk-averse person, I'd probably still be reluctant to do so today when I don't think that it's a reliable text as end-time prophecy.
lol 😂….. I think it’s so funny that they even compare the Bible with Homer or Plato…. Neither of them claimed to be writing the inerrant word of God! They are just making word salads!! Eat this, it’ll fill you up for a minute!
Laws were made based on what they wrote. Entire civilizations were built on their myths. Do you know history? They claimed all those stories were true and to some extent they actually are real. How can you have the confidence to make your comment when you clearly don’t know about the subject?
Yes, I do know history fairly well. I’m not a scholar but I am an avid reader and researcher, especially in religious studies and history. I apologize if I didn’t make my point clear enough. I was simply saying that when they say we should hold the Bible to the same standards as the works of Homer or Plato, I disagree, as I said, the Bible claims to be the inerrant Word of God, Homer and Plato do not make those claims, therefore they shouldn’t be compared in the same way for authenticity. That was the only point I was making.
The only argument you need against religion is: Why haven't the deities delivered a manuscript? The only "channel" to the divine is through hallucinations, mainly through hearing voices in your head. This is a well-known mental trait, originating in the subconscious mind, and fully explains all revelations to all prophets in all times. The subconscious mind has stored memories from the time of birth and uses them to produce dreams, and given the right circumstances, hallucinations. No deity needed.
As if mister Shaw wasn't weird and creepy enough, I found his linkedin profile. Couldn't readily find any legitimate mention of him elsewhere to check which brand of Cracker Jacks he got his "PhD" out of, but I did find this: Ben Shaw, PhD President @ CORE | Speaker | Author | Jiu Jitsu Black Belt Guess he has a PhD in padding his resumé with just... _sad loser_ filler. But if his self-written profile is to be trusted (and really, who would EVER trust an apologist to report anything honestly ever?): _My academic background includes a BS in Marketing, an MA in Religious Studies, and a PhD in Theology and Apologetics from Liberty University_ Bachelor's degree in marketing makes sense; lots of scammers get easy degrees like that to get started, but as typical he veers right into diploma mill territory with fake fields of study from the King Diploma Mill itself, Fake Diploma Mass Printing Co. University. No wonder he opted for bragging about his shopping mall accessories instead of his _"qualifications."_ Guy couldn't be sadder if he'd posted his Duck Hunt high score instead.
I always told myself I would never want to ruin someone else's faith. But I find it very hard lately to listen to the usual Christian conversation about how we don't know anything and God is true and we are all so stupid. It really is getting under my skin. My family was talking about the flood today and I literally had to get up and leave the room. No one knows about losing my faith. People saying stuff like that never bothered me before. Anyway another amazing video. Sending love to y'all .sorry the rambling. Hopefully I can keep my cool. I just wish I didn't have to hear it over and over.
I work at a university, and we don't hold it against students who have attended multiple prior colleges/universities prior to coming to us to complete a degree. There are many reasons this may be necessary and out of the student's control , e.g. parents moving for job requirements. That said I think it's preferable to minimize changes during the student's education. First, it's harder to form friendships and connections if you change college frequently, and later you may be required to provide official transcripts from each college for job and other applications, currently at $15 a pop for each one.
The thing we nonbelievers need to understand well is that Christians do not become Christians because of apologetics. They become Christians because in a time of need, the belief meets an emotional need. They stay Christians because they continue to get their emotional needs met, such as having a community, feeling accepted, having a purpose, or even experiencing the feeling of having a high mission.
1:45 I wonder what these guys would say if somebody made a video saying they got saves (from christianity) when the muslim babysitter took them to mosque? I bet they'd think that was quite terrible! Regarding "manuscripts": Many of them are credit card or postage stamp sized scraps, with just a few words.
"If the only way to make his side look credibale is to omit the evidence of the other side, that is evidence of a weak case indeed." - Just found your channel. This is my first video of yours and I loved every minute. New sub here in the throes of deconstruction, thanks for helping me along the road!
Wait, Paul's letters make up over HALF the New Testament?! I never realized that... Think I stalled in the second geneology chapter in my cover-to-cover reading attempt.
And that's actually not true, since a lot of letters attributed to Paul were actually written by other people, even after his death. At most, Paul wrote a third of the New Testament.
@@RichWoods23 - Regarding all the books attributed to Paul - how do we know they were written by THE Paul? Furthermore, analysis of those books reveals they were *_not_* written by that same somebody. Presumably, though, all the Paulian books would reflect his beliefs. Right? Right? Right......? (Those books sure do not reflect the teachings attributed to Yeshu', though!) ------------------ Meanwhile, unlike Dr Ehrman, I am not convinced that any of them even existed. And certainly no gods!
Sounded to me a lot like he was "accidentally on purpose" creating an equivocation between "is the text reliable" as in "it's a fairly good copy of the original text," and "is the text reliable" as in "can we trust that this is the inspired word of God? He never actually came out and said it, and Sean added his own plausible deniability at the end, but I had a real strong impression that the intended take-away was that it was reliable in both senses.
I think he likes Ehrman because he's easy to "quote mine". Between podcasts, blog posts, academic writing and books, you can pretty much find an Ehrman quote for every occasion. And you don't actually have to read the work, just google and AI will find it. He's a very sloppy researcher.
P. Shaw! --------------- McDowell looks steadily into the camera, and by proxy, to Shaw and us. Shaw, however, spends much more time looking everywhere but the camera. It leaves me with the feeling than he is prevaricating in a most untrustworthy manner.
My position is that all books were written entirely by human beings, with no divine, or supernatural input, influence, or inspiration of any kind whatsoever, so to me, how accurate today's Bible is compared to the original texts, is irrelevant. Even if we had the original manuscripts and everything matched up perfectly, it's still just the word of humans, not God.
Nobody is telling me to give 10% of my income to Homer or that only Platonic relationships should be legally permitted. I trust that Homer and the Bible are old stories and I trust that Plato and the Bible are old philosophies but I don’t trust any of it enough to live my life according to it
I grew up in the bible belt (altho mostly on various naval bases) but somehow I never took religion seriously at all. I did attend "church" around kindergarten thru 4th grade, but it was meeting at the home of another navy family. The only thing I really remember from that was Leo… their gorgeous cat.
"How is your book unique?" "Well, here's my sixteen page backstory." ....okay? Shaw, have you ever _read_ a book before? Do you know what a book is? The _cough cough totally real-sounding and not at all completely made up_ life story of the author is not what makes a book unique, unless part of that backstory is about how the author bound his books in human skin. Also that imaginary babysitter belongs in jail. And _please,_ the Sermon on the Mount converted a kid young enough to need a babysitter who, unprompted, brought a kid to a goddamn church without its parents? Do christians even know what the sermon is? It's the most vapid pile of trash I've seen in literature since the _Sword of Truth_ books. Matthew 5:13 "But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again?" by bringing it back to the real universe where the molecule we call salt stays salty as long as _it's still salt because it's a goddamn rock and it doesn't go stale, maybe?_ No yeah sure Shaw I'm crying right now that's so freaking beautiful. If water isn't so watery, how do I waterify it again? FREAKING MAGIC OF COURSE! bee arr bee gonna go to church and divest myself of my entire life savings right in the filth bowl near the front door. I know he's just playing to an extremely brainwashed and primed audience who _expects_ that kind of made-up contrite-sounding bullshit, but sheesh, how does _HE_ not feel like he shat in his hands and took a bite?
Ben Shaw "no, no, what I meant was that my wife is better able to tell me if my book was any good because she's closer to the target audience than me and my colleagues and I trust her to be honest with me. Every good author should get their work checked by someone for clarity before publishing it." At least, he _should_ have meant this rather than a "LOL my wife is stupid so she's just like the peons who buy my book" type of meaning. What did he actually mean? Probably some element of the latter along with defending it as "hey, my wife liked it and she wouldn't lie to me" and probably half a dozen other things I'm not thinking of.
I would like to know what subject area Ben's PhD was in *and* who awarded it... even then, I don't share his beliefs, and I cannot see how he got there. Of course, I wasn't raised as a christian, or anything else for that matter.
"Benjamin C. F. Shaw has a PhD in theology from Liberty University in Virginia and is president of Core Apologetics, also serves as adjunct professor of theology at Liberty University" - Reason org
@@Julian0101 Thanks for that - I was being lazy not looking him up! I guess his PhD has some relevance, though it doesn't change anything for me: a friend on mine, non-religious, gained a PhD in theology from a venerable UK university. Ostensibly it was the easiest way to get Dr on his driving license and passport; handy for traffic stops and airline upgrades, according to him, though I suspect he just wanted to stay in education rather than get a job (it was a long time ago, and students received _grants_ rather than loans). It paid off in the end though, banking's graduate schemes in those days really didn't care about the subject, just the qualification, so he did rather well.
@@pmtoner9852 His research data seems to point to "no historical Jesus" while he still stated that there was one. however, as I stated, I like the way Dr. Ehrman orates and writes.
So many books! I imagine one little bible on top of an enormous mountain of books explaining the bible. Or maybe the bible is squashed underneath the mountain.
I think this is an example of the apologists' worst fallacy - argumentum ad Bartum. Believe my argument because I cherry picked Bart Erhman quotes. Checkmate atheist!
About your final point: that's why I don't buy hard-copy books any more. E-books don't take up shelf space or gather dust. About everything else: I hope Drs McDowell and Shaw are squirming! Why are apologists such terrible scholars? (Rhetorical question.)
I love having physical things on shelves, but living in a small apartment I have limited space. So I’m choosy about what books and video games I buy physical copies of.
GG, I saw the original post from Sean and responded as follows: The amount of manuscripts is only relevant if you are counting how many copies were made. However, arguments about the number of manuscripts are red herrings. The issue is whether the claims made in the manuscripts are true. Historians, nor anybody else for that matter, have an objective methodology for testing whether magic or the supernatural is true. I give Christians all the manuscripts they want and invite them to prove that magic is real. I’m still waiting.
Why do apologists keep on bringing up the number of copies of Homer etc? No one that I know worships Homer and lives their life according to Homer, if a bunch of monkeys at a typewriter wrote Homer it wouldn't change people's lives one bit, really. BUT you can't say the same about the bible!
I wondered if your grandkids called you godless granny then I started thinking about how you treat a subject like god with kids since I don't have any. I figure it's approached like you would santa claus, it isn't real in the literal sense but the belief brings some people joy. I think it might be a good thing for you to elaborate on for your channel. Love you, love your work! -J R
Very dishonest conversation between McDowell and Shaw. If they want to use Ehrman as a reference, why not invite him to join? He is still alive and does chats with all sorts of people, even excusagists. At the end you say exactly what I was thinking, I don't care if the copy of the Iliad on my shelf is true to the original, it's a romping good story but I don't plan to live my life based on it. The "weight" of bible manuscripts is greatly diminished when you realize how late most of them were created, copies of copies of copies, all done by hand until the printing press was invented. I have photocopied sheet music with written notes made by earlier players. I have printed books of sheet music. Often there are variations between versions of the same tune, someone noted down as best they could a tune as they heard it played, at one time in one place. We don't know how accurately they noted it down, or how accurate the rendition they heard was to the original composition - and every time I play the tune I may add variations. The original composer probably didn't play it the same every time. When you get copies you get changes, additions and subtractions. Only in our modern digital world can we create exact faithful copies of the original.
Both McDowell and Shaw have a lot of years of studying to do before anything they are saying could be considered true. They sound like a lot of the uneducated evangelists around me as a kid, who would tell you everything about the bible and it all must be followed exactly. But then you realized that they have never completed high school even and couldn't read their bibles that they were preaching about. Several of those were in my own family.
Overall good job, GG.However, medieval church authorities never destroyed classical works. They venerated these works, copying, discussing, and in many cases - such as with Aristotle and Plato- weaving them into their theology. My PhD is in medieval history. See Marcia Colish, Medieval Foundations of the Western Intellectual Traditions,
Actually, I should backtrack a bit on the comment I just posted a short while ago. Many of our English Bibles will have a footnote that reads, "The earliest and best manuscripts read . . . ." which does open up a door of controversy. The majority of surviving manuscripts conform to what is sometimes referred to as the Byzantine or Majority Text, which can be dated back to the 4th Century. The earliest surviving manuscripts, however, are found on Egyptian papyri, some of which Granny mentioned in her comments. But the case can be argued that they conform to a type of text tradition which was common in Egypt, and is sometimes called the Alexandrian tradition. We have enough papyrus evidence to support the idea that Codex Vaticanus is a very good representative of that tradition. I personally support the Byzantine or Majority Text, based on what we know about it. It was used by St. John Chrysostom at Constantinople at the end of the 4th Century. Where did it come from? What we know is that earlier in the century the Emperor Constantine had two churches constructed in the city, and he asked Eusebius of Caesarea to provide him with 50 copies of the Greek Bible for use in the churches. Eusebius says that he used a manuscript from the library of Pamphilius to copy. Thus our modern printed edition of the Majority Text of the Greek NT is bound to be virtually identical to the manuscript that Eusebius used, and it became the standard text used throughout the Eastern Orthodox churches.
If you believe the Bible do you think at Christ"s second coming 100 billion people will be resurrected ,give an account of their lives,?Jesus is Lord of Lord of our exponentially coplex world?Everyone is resurrected with clothes? Where do they live and work?Communicate?
I wish you would stop using Donald Trump images in a bad light. It makes me mad 😡. There are plenty of conservative atheist ⚛️ people. Sick and tired of this Trump bashing crap.
Then get some empathy and decency and realise that Trump is a disgrace. Convicted criminal with self-admitted sexual harassment against women. Conservatives deserve better than him, and the only way that may happen is if voters vote against him in large numbers and let your local office know why you do not support that behaviour in a representative.
I wish Donald Trump would stop putting conservatives in a bad light too. They're bad enough as is, they don't need any worse! Joking mockery aside, it's not GGs responsibility to coddle and pay lip service to your preferred cult leader of personality just because you superficially share an atheist label with her. Plenty of atheists, even conservative ones, aren't Trumpets, so showing Trump in a bad light is par for the course. The man only has bad lights!
The reason we don't have the original manuscripts is because before the invention of printing the Bible had to be copied by hand. The oldest manuscripts would eventually wear and be destroyed. So what we have today are copies of copies of the originals. New Testament textual criticism can be quite complicated and sometimes controversial. But because of the large number of surviving manuscripts we can reconstruct the original text with a high degree of accuracy. Let' say, for example, that we have 250 copies of a given passage of Scripture. 245 are in agreement with each other. The remaining 5 give us two different alternative readings. The 245 that are in agreement obviously contain the original text. We also have several ancient translations of the Bible in other languages, and so that will also reinforce our confidence in the original text. Granny wants to know why, if God is omnipotent and wants us to know His Word, why has He not preserved it flawlessly? The answer is that God has been pleased to use human instruments to accomplish His purposes here on earth.
Considering we have no originals, I could just as easily argue that the copies we have are completely inaccurate. There is just as much justification to say that as to say it is highly accurate. And so your answer to why God doesn't do these things... is that God is lazy. I mean, considering if God exists the design of everything... lazy and incompetent are pretty accurate descriptions.
@@Diviance And how can you possibly know that "the copies we have are completely inaccurate"? How could so many copies, which agree with each other in substance, have come into existence?
@@robertwheeler1158 How could you know the copies are accurate? Perhaps all of the copies stem from a single "copy" that intentionally was written to be inaccurate to corrupt the religion from the start. How could you possibly prove otherwise?
@@Diviance There are 27 separate books in the New Testament, and each one of them would have had an original manuscript. So now you're turning the discussion to the Higher Criticism of the Bible, whether books themselves in their original form were authentic. I, of course, would argue that they are, but that is a whole other subject and one that would have to be considered on a book-by-book basis. It suffices to say here that the early church fathers put what they put into the canon because they were convinced that they really were authentic.
@@robertwheeler1158 No. I am saying that you have no evidence that someone didn't take the original writings and rewrite them completely different and sent those out, preventing the actual originals from ever being copied directly. The "early church fathers" were centuries later. They would have had no clue whatsoever what was and what wasn't canon.
It's strange to me to be able to remember a time before learning about Christianity... I was indoctrinated before I could speak or form memories. Took me into my 40s to finally let it go.
Thanks, GG, fantastic video! Great points!
Religious people quote mining. Who would have thought that.
Hey Godless Granny,
Thanks for this video, as always I love you slightly sarcastic take on these apologists.
It speaks volumes that the majority of honest beilevers who go in and examine these things as scholars end up not believing anymore. I know this is the case with Erhman because I subscribe to his channel too. Apologetics is inherently dishonest.
Thanks again!
Approximately 300 years after the death of "Jesus" the longest game of telephone started. The starting message was never 100% right to begin with. How anyone can base their life on this is so beyond me now. I grew up in the Bible belt and was a conservative Christian up until I moved out of my parents house. My deconstruction was very fast. I guess I always had doubts so it wasn't that hard for me. If only I could get my mom to see how her life would be so much better without god in it. It'll never happen I'm pretty sure. Loved the video GG!
After 300 years Christianity was taken up by a failing empire to help unify and support it. The Roman government was very authoritarian and rigidly hierarchical - as the religious right would like our government to be. Two thousand years on, can't we form a religion that doesn't require denial of reality or loathing of sex?
To answer your question, I think many believe it because humans have a propensity to be theistic.
@@baonemogomotsi7138 I think that most believe due to brainwashing.
But it’s not the longest game of telephone. Have you ever heard of books? They have been around for a long time. You can read first century Christian writings. The scrolls based on your science are pre Christ and predict him. While I will agree Protestant theology is a joke and should set off bells this does not in total disprove the Bible or God. Just in all your comment is based on modern atheist myth not actual reality.
@@katiek.8808 Theology books aren't proof of your god, just stories and claims.
"There's no data that supports the dogma of Inerrancy" - Dr. Daniel McClellan
Interesting!
My now-ex is an academic, and I read a lot of her work - PhD thesis, books, chapters, articles. In Oxford I was part of the spouses group, which was still called the wives group. (Talked with woman who'd been involved in the early days of computing, when memory was a literal net of little magnets.)
Your powers of staying awake during reading the thesis and books must be remarkable , respect !🥱
@@rexnemo Actually, it was on topics that I find fascinating, which I guess is why we got together in the first place. Medieval Chinese history, and at least the Eurasian parts of World medieval history.
@@mikeharrison1868 That is interesting , I have studied Chinese language for some years as a hobby and can quite see why you find the country and its history intriguing .
I wouldn't expect an apologist to be able to keep "number" vs "amount" straight, considering they think "evidence" is a count noun.
"10 Evidences That The Bible Is True!!!1!" It drives me nuts.
@@mirandarensberger6919
Evidently, the page numbers are consistent; nine to go.
Outstanding as usual ❤️ Thank you for this well-researched gem of a video.
Hope you are doing well and having a great time on your visit.
Thank you so much!
@@GodlessGrannystarting energy wash enjoy
Ben Shaw - PhD in Theology from Liberty University, which requires a statement of faith (i.e. staff promise that all their research will lead to the conclusion that the Bible is true). Runs an apologetics organisation that uses Gary Habermas' 'minimal facts' to help doubting Christians retain their faith. Definitely someone who can be relied on to provide scholarly analysis.
"Theology" is a non-subject. 😛
The good Saint Doug of Pine Creek had a short session with Garry Habber, which went well . . . for the onlookers.
I has occurred to me that the famous (forged!) verse in 2 Tim. 3:16, "all scripture is inspired from God', doesn't actually state that this means that all scripture is literally true. You can't really derive a concept of literal inerrancy from that verse. Only that God inspired the words... I saw an interview with John J. Collins once, a leading OT scholar, about the "historicity" of Noah's flood. The interviewer was a fundamentalist wanting the flood to be historical, and Prof. Collins asked him, "Why should God not inspire an author to write down a myth?". I thought that was a really good point.
Sean McDowell and Frank Turek are two sides of the same coin, they're equally arrogant equally wrong, and have equal measures of blood on their hands, BUT Turek presents externally as an insufferable prick, while McDowell has such a pleasant veneer that it's easy to miss the disingenuousness and evil that lurks underneath.
McDowell is a shill for Biola University I doubt he really believes what he claims he does.
I remember learning about this topic years ago and finding the apologists' explanations to not be credible despite their "PhDs" or other academic "credentials" due to the Statements of Faith these supposed scholars have to sign at Xtian institutions. These scholars are tainted with bias as a result and I can't take them seriously.
I think it is wise to not underestimate religious people . In the words of the prophet Python .
"I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition ."
@@rexnemo
The Comfey Chair makes people say the darndest things.
I always love apologists who talk about the number of copies of the same text as if that proved anything. The first printing of On the Origin of Species was 1250 copies (and sold out in one day). That's not the data we use to know that evolution is real. But sheer number of copies is all the evidence they need for the New Testament, I guess.
Not really surprised to see that Minnesota falls into the
I read my husband's academic works on fiber reinforced polymers used in structural repair of bridges and his work on ethics and philosophy in educating engineering students. It's good stuff. He is very informative on infrastructure and transportation.
@Pb_Pencil - And you - a mere wife! .^_^.
@@MossyMozart
It's hard, but not too hard-like a ballpen. I use 6B for marginalia to drive librarians slightly crazier.
It could have been a scalpel, but it would have left my DNA.
Thank you for bringing the truths about and dangers of christianity to light.
I rejected christianity in 1992 after i was coerced into baptism by my in-laws.
I resorted to pagan beliefs after that and chose to be ordained by the Universal Life Church so i could perform weddings and Handfastings. Along with ordination, i chose to take the Dr of Divinity course which was nothing more than an honorary degree ☹️. I still perform secular weddings and Handfastings for atheists, same-sex and secular folks because I love the joy that I share with my clients in starting a new chapter in their lives.
31:19 When I was a teenager reading this passage, I always wondered how a believer could work up the nerve to translate the book of Revelation, because it'd be pretty impossible to translate without adding or removing by accident. Being a rather risk-averse person, I'd probably still be reluctant to do so today when I don't think that it's a reliable text as end-time prophecy.
“The original is out there somewhere, we just have to find it”? Big damn deal. That’s true of _every_ manuscript
The originals started with a sentence that was lost to time _'the next is a work of fiction'._
Im sure those originals are out there somewhere.
Agreed apologists- Homer's Oddyssey is as true as the bible
The Odyssey does have the advantage of being more coherent than the bible, so it makes for a better read.
dang it! I missed most of this...but don't worry, GG, i'll re-listen to it later this day.
lol 😂….. I think it’s so funny that they even compare the Bible with Homer or Plato…. Neither of them claimed to be writing the inerrant word of God! They are just making word salads!! Eat this, it’ll fill you up for a minute!
Laws were made based on what they wrote. Entire civilizations were built on their myths. Do you know history? They claimed all those stories were true and to some extent they actually are real. How can you have the confidence to make your comment when you clearly don’t know about the subject?
Yes, I do know history fairly well. I’m not a scholar but I am an avid reader and researcher, especially in religious studies and history. I apologize if I didn’t make my point clear enough. I was simply saying that when they say we should hold the Bible to the same standards as the works of Homer or Plato, I disagree, as I said, the Bible claims to be the inerrant Word of God, Homer and Plato do not make those claims, therefore they shouldn’t be compared in the same way for authenticity. That was the only point I was making.
The only argument you need against religion is: Why haven't the deities delivered a manuscript? The only "channel" to the divine is through hallucinations, mainly through hearing voices in your head. This is a well-known mental trait, originating in the subconscious mind, and fully explains all revelations to all prophets in all times. The subconscious mind has stored memories from the time of birth and uses them to produce dreams, and given the right circumstances, hallucinations. No deity needed.
As if mister Shaw wasn't weird and creepy enough, I found his linkedin profile. Couldn't readily find any legitimate mention of him elsewhere to check which brand of Cracker Jacks he got his "PhD" out of, but I did find this:
Ben Shaw, PhD President @ CORE | Speaker | Author | Jiu Jitsu Black Belt
Guess he has a PhD in padding his resumé with just... _sad loser_ filler. But if his self-written profile is to be trusted (and really, who would EVER trust an apologist to report anything honestly ever?):
_My academic background includes a BS in Marketing, an MA in Religious Studies, and a PhD in Theology and Apologetics from Liberty University_
Bachelor's degree in marketing makes sense; lots of scammers get easy degrees like that to get started, but as typical he veers right into diploma mill territory with fake fields of study from the King Diploma Mill itself, Fake Diploma Mass Printing Co. University.
No wonder he opted for bragging about his shopping mall accessories instead of his _"qualifications."_ Guy couldn't be sadder if he'd posted his Duck Hunt high score instead.
I always told myself I would never want to ruin someone else's faith. But I find it very hard lately to listen to the usual Christian conversation about how we don't know anything and God is true and we are all so stupid. It really is getting under my skin. My family was talking about the flood today and I literally had to get up and leave the room. No one knows about losing my faith. People saying stuff like that never bothered me before. Anyway another amazing video. Sending love to y'all .sorry the rambling. Hopefully I can keep my cool. I just wish I didn't have to hear it over and over.
I work at a university, and we don't hold it against students who have attended multiple prior colleges/universities prior to coming to us to complete a degree. There are many reasons this may be necessary and out of the student's control , e.g. parents moving for job requirements.
That said I think it's preferable to minimize changes during the student's education. First, it's harder to form friendships and connections if you change college frequently, and later you may be required to provide official transcripts from each college for job and other applications, currently at $15 a pop for each one.
Excellent commentary gg, ty
The thing we nonbelievers need to understand well is that Christians do not become Christians because of apologetics. They become Christians because in a time of need, the belief meets an emotional need. They stay Christians because they continue to get their emotional needs met, such as having a community, feeling accepted, having a purpose, or even experiencing the feeling of having a high mission.
1:45 I wonder what these guys would say if somebody made a video saying they got saves (from christianity) when the muslim babysitter took them to mosque? I bet they'd think that was quite terrible!
Regarding "manuscripts": Many of them are credit card or postage stamp sized scraps, with just a few words.
"If the only way to make his side look credibale is to omit the evidence of the other side, that is evidence of a weak case indeed." - Just found your channel. This is my first video of yours and I loved every minute. New sub here in the throes of deconstruction, thanks for helping me along the road!
You are most welcome!
Wait, Paul's letters make up over HALF the New Testament?! I never realized that...
Think I stalled in the second geneology chapter in my cover-to-cover reading attempt.
And that's actually not true, since a lot of letters attributed to Paul were actually written by other people, even after his death.
At most, Paul wrote a third of the New Testament.
@@sergei_mikhailovich Oh, good. That's better, then...
@@RichWoods23 - Regarding all the books attributed to Paul - how do we know they were written by THE Paul? Furthermore, analysis of those books reveals they were *_not_* written by that same somebody. Presumably, though, all the Paulian books would reflect his beliefs. Right? Right? Right......? (Those books sure do not reflect the teachings attributed to Yeshu', though!)
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Meanwhile, unlike Dr Ehrman, I am not convinced that any of them even existed. And certainly no gods!
Sounded to me a lot like he was "accidentally on purpose" creating an equivocation between "is the text reliable" as in "it's a fairly good copy of the original text," and "is the text reliable" as in "can we trust that this is the inspired word of God? He never actually came out and said it, and Sean added his own plausible deniability at the end, but I had a real strong impression that the intended take-away was that it was reliable in both senses.
I think he likes Ehrman because he's easy to "quote mine". Between podcasts, blog posts, academic writing and books, you can pretty much find an Ehrman quote for every occasion. And you don't actually have to read the work, just google and AI will find it. He's a very sloppy researcher.
As if having the “originals” would mean they’re anymore true.
@zach2980 - Bingo!
Pfft, those are rookie numbers. I'm in my 17th PhD while working the jobs, saving humanity and cooking 3 meals a day. Git gud, dude.
As regards to Dr. Shaw, all I can say is ”p’shaw!” 🤔
P. Shaw!
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McDowell looks steadily into the camera, and by proxy, to Shaw and us. Shaw, however, spends much more time looking everywhere but the camera. It leaves me with the feeling than he is prevaricating in a most untrustworthy manner.
My position is that all books were written entirely by human beings, with no divine, or supernatural input, influence, or inspiration of any kind whatsoever, so to me, how accurate today's Bible is compared to the original texts, is irrelevant. Even if we had the original manuscripts and everything matched up perfectly, it's still just the word of humans, not God.
agree
@GodlessGranny Love you GG! Keep up the good work.
Nobody is telling me to give 10% of my income to Homer or that only Platonic relationships should be legally permitted. I trust that Homer and the Bible are old stories and I trust that Plato and the Bible are old philosophies but I don’t trust any of it enough to live my life according to it
Getting groomed by the babysitter is mean work
If that map of religious people is true New Hampshire seems the place to go.
Too cold for me.
Yeah, but NH makes up for the lack of religious lunacy by having high numbers of libertarians and guns.
I grew up in the bible belt (altho mostly on various naval bases) but somehow I never took religion seriously at all. I did attend "church" around kindergarten thru 4th grade, but it was meeting at the home of another navy family. The only thing I really remember from that was Leo… their gorgeous cat.
"How is your book unique?"
"Well, here's my sixteen page backstory."
....okay? Shaw, have you ever _read_ a book before? Do you know what a book is? The _cough cough totally real-sounding and not at all completely made up_ life story of the author is not what makes a book unique, unless part of that backstory is about how the author bound his books in human skin.
Also that imaginary babysitter belongs in jail. And _please,_ the Sermon on the Mount converted a kid young enough to need a babysitter who, unprompted, brought a kid to a goddamn church without its parents? Do christians even know what the sermon is? It's the most vapid pile of trash I've seen in literature since the _Sword of Truth_ books. Matthew 5:13 "But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again?" by bringing it back to the real universe where the molecule we call salt stays salty as long as _it's still salt because it's a goddamn rock and it doesn't go stale, maybe?_ No yeah sure Shaw I'm crying right now that's so freaking beautiful. If water isn't so watery, how do I waterify it again? FREAKING MAGIC OF COURSE! bee arr bee gonna go to church and divest myself of my entire life savings right in the filth bowl near the front door.
I know he's just playing to an extremely brainwashed and primed audience who _expects_ that kind of made-up contrite-sounding bullshit, but sheesh, how does _HE_ not feel like he shat in his hands and took a bite?
Paulogia coined a specific fallacy for this: "Argumentum ad bartum" ua-cam.com/video/zQmwC4jLzWE/v-deo.htmlsi=PvtFs_J1Ouu-Gx7Z&t=271
Ben Shaw "no, no, what I meant was that my wife is better able to tell me if my book was any good because she's closer to the target audience than me and my colleagues and I trust her to be honest with me. Every good author should get their work checked by someone for clarity before publishing it."
At least, he _should_ have meant this rather than a "LOL my wife is stupid so she's just like the peons who buy my book" type of meaning.
What did he actually mean? Probably some element of the latter along with defending it as "hey, my wife liked it and she wouldn't lie to me" and probably half a dozen other things I'm not thinking of.
I would like to know what subject area Ben's PhD was in *and* who awarded it... even then, I don't share his beliefs, and I cannot see how he got there. Of course, I wasn't raised as a christian, or anything else for that matter.
"Benjamin C. F. Shaw has a PhD in theology from Liberty University in Virginia and is president of Core Apologetics, also serves as adjunct professor of theology at Liberty University" - Reason org
@@Julian0101 Thanks for that - I was being lazy not looking him up! I guess his PhD has some relevance, though it doesn't change anything for me: a friend on mine, non-religious, gained a PhD in theology from a venerable UK university. Ostensibly it was the easiest way to get Dr on his driving license and passport; handy for traffic stops and airline upgrades, according to him, though I suspect he just wanted to stay in education rather than get a job (it was a long time ago, and students received _grants_ rather than loans). It paid off in the end though, banking's graduate schemes in those days really didn't care about the subject, just the qualification, so he did rather well.
Misquoting Erman?
What a shocker 😮 😳
I like the way Dr. Ehrman orates and writes. We only disagree in one aspect.
What?
@@pmtoner9852 His research data seems to point to "no historical Jesus" while he still stated that there was one. however, as I stated, I like the way Dr. Ehrman orates and writes.
@@michaelbell3181 I would totally agree. thanks for responding
@@michaelbell3181 - I agree with you, too. Josephus is no authority to me when he writes a history that starts with Adam & Eve. >_
@@MossyMozart Josephus is NOT a witness to even Jesus, but Christians won't investigate
So many books! I imagine one little bible on top of an enormous mountain of books explaining the bible. Or maybe the bible is squashed underneath the mountain.
I think this is an example of the apologists' worst fallacy - argumentum ad Bartum. Believe my argument because I cherry picked Bart Erhman quotes. Checkmate atheist!
About your final point: that's why I don't buy hard-copy books any more. E-books don't take up shelf space or gather dust. About everything else: I hope Drs McDowell and Shaw are squirming! Why are apologists such terrible scholars? (Rhetorical question.)
answering rhetorical question, they look only for things that confirm their assumptions
I love having physical things on shelves, but living in a small apartment I have limited space. So I’m choosy about what books and video games I buy physical copies of.
GG, I saw the original post from Sean and responded as follows: The amount of manuscripts is only relevant if you are counting how many copies were made. However, arguments about the number of manuscripts are red herrings. The issue is whether the claims made in the manuscripts are true. Historians, nor anybody else for that matter, have an objective methodology for testing whether magic or the supernatural is true.
I give Christians all the manuscripts they want and invite them to prove that magic is real. I’m still waiting.
Why do apologists keep on bringing up the number of copies of Homer etc? No one that I know worships Homer and lives their life according to Homer, if a bunch of monkeys at a typewriter wrote Homer it wouldn't change people's lives one bit, really. BUT you can't say the same about the bible!
Imagine spending money on a PhD in bullshit.
Shaw proves Dr. Ehrman's book, "Misquoting Jesus" is genius by showing how Christians easily misquots out of convenience
Please leave your graphics on the screen longer.
Love your content!
Glad you enjoy it!
Great video, thanks!
You're welcome!
From my POV you debunked his arguments presened here
Great job even when I had the feeling you dids't have to try too hard ;)
I wondered if your grandkids called you godless granny then I started thinking about how you treat a subject like god with kids since I don't have any. I figure it's approached like you would santa claus, it isn't real in the literal sense but the belief brings some people joy. I think it might be a good thing for you to elaborate on for your channel. Love you, love your work! -J R
They just call me Grandma. They don't know I'm Godless Granny, though they do know I'm an atheist and that I have a UA-cam Channel.
Very dishonest conversation between McDowell and Shaw. If they want to use Ehrman as a reference, why not invite him to join? He is still alive and does chats with all sorts of people, even excusagists.
At the end you say exactly what I was thinking, I don't care if the copy of the Iliad on my shelf is true to the original, it's a romping good story but I don't plan to live my life based on it.
The "weight" of bible manuscripts is greatly diminished when you realize how late most of them were created, copies of copies of copies, all done by hand until the printing press was invented.
I have photocopied sheet music with written notes made by earlier players. I have printed books of sheet music. Often there are variations between versions of the same tune, someone noted down as best they could a tune as they heard it played, at one time in one place. We don't know how accurately they noted it down, or how accurate the rendition they heard was to the original composition - and every time I play the tune I may add variations. The original composer probably didn't play it the same every time.
When you get copies you get changes, additions and subtractions. Only in our modern digital world can we create exact faithful copies of the original.
gee, your audio sounds fuzzy
Is indictrinating children into religion considered child abuse?
There is 1 country that recently passed that law, but I don't remember which one.
@@GodlessGranny I would be interested to hear more. I just did a Google search and found nothing so I'm putting this down as urban legend for now.
I vote for sloppy research.
how can anyone take doc seriously? Just wow !
@aubreyleonae4108 - Shaw or Ehrman?
Both McDowell and Shaw have a lot of years of studying to do before anything they are saying could be considered true. They sound like a lot of the uneducated evangelists around me as a kid, who would tell you everything about the bible and it all must be followed exactly. But then you realized that they have never completed high school even and couldn't read their bibles that they were preaching about. Several of those were in my own family.
35:26 Wow, my understanding of the Bible's origins is way, WAY off. 😜
(Yes, I know it's just a flubbed line, let me have my fun.)
Overall good job, GG.However, medieval church authorities never destroyed classical works. They venerated these works, copying, discussing, and in many cases - such as with Aristotle and Plato- weaving them into their theology. My PhD is in medieval history. See Marcia Colish, Medieval Foundations of the Western Intellectual Traditions,
Cool. I read a book that said otherwise. Guess that one got it wrong.
Comment for the algorithm.
Actually, I should backtrack a bit on the comment I just posted a short while ago. Many of our English Bibles will have a footnote that reads, "The earliest and best manuscripts read . . . ." which does open up a door of controversy. The majority of surviving manuscripts conform to what is sometimes referred to as the Byzantine or Majority Text, which can be dated back to the 4th Century. The earliest surviving manuscripts, however, are found on Egyptian papyri, some of which Granny mentioned in her comments. But the case can be argued that they conform to a type of text tradition which was common in Egypt, and is sometimes called the Alexandrian tradition. We have enough papyrus evidence to support the idea that Codex Vaticanus is a very good representative of that tradition.
I personally support the Byzantine or Majority Text, based on what we know about it. It was used by St. John Chrysostom at Constantinople at the end of the 4th Century. Where did it come from? What we know is that earlier in the century the Emperor Constantine had two churches constructed in the city, and he asked Eusebius of Caesarea to provide him with 50 copies of the Greek Bible for use in the churches. Eusebius says that he used a manuscript from the library of Pamphilius to copy. Thus our modern printed edition of the Majority Text of the Greek NT is bound to be virtually identical to the manuscript that Eusebius used, and it became the standard text used throughout the Eastern Orthodox churches.
hmmm... Looks like Dr. Shaw has a lot of stolen library books in his home office? lol
How do you grow up in the church and not know that Paul wrote a large part of the New Testament?
Know or believe?
He didn't. His babysitter took him to church once and he converted.
😊
If you believe the Bible do you think at Christ"s second coming 100 billion people will be resurrected ,give an account of their lives,?Jesus is Lord of Lord of our exponentially coplex world?Everyone is resurrected with clothes? Where do they live and work?Communicate?
I wish you would stop using Donald Trump images in a bad light. It makes me mad 😡. There are plenty of conservative atheist ⚛️ people. Sick and tired of this Trump bashing crap.
Then get some empathy and decency and realise that Trump is a disgrace. Convicted criminal with self-admitted sexual harassment against women. Conservatives deserve better than him, and the only way that may happen is if voters vote against him in large numbers and let your local office know why you do not support that behaviour in a representative.
I wish Donald Trump would stop putting conservatives in a bad light too. They're bad enough as is, they don't need any worse!
Joking mockery aside, it's not GGs responsibility to coddle and pay lip service to your preferred cult leader of personality just because you superficially share an atheist label with her. Plenty of atheists, even conservative ones, aren't Trumpets, so showing Trump in a bad light is par for the course. The man only has bad lights!
The reason we don't have the original manuscripts is because before the invention of printing the Bible had to be copied by hand. The oldest manuscripts would eventually wear and be destroyed. So what we have today are copies of copies of the originals.
New Testament textual criticism can be quite complicated and sometimes controversial. But because of the large number of surviving manuscripts we can reconstruct the original text with a high degree of accuracy. Let' say, for example, that we have 250 copies of a given passage of Scripture. 245 are in agreement with each other. The remaining 5 give us two different alternative readings. The 245 that are in agreement obviously contain the original text.
We also have several ancient translations of the Bible in other languages, and so that will also reinforce our confidence in the original text.
Granny wants to know why, if God is omnipotent and wants us to know His Word, why has He not preserved it flawlessly? The answer is that God has been pleased to use human instruments to accomplish His purposes here on earth.
Considering we have no originals, I could just as easily argue that the copies we have are completely inaccurate. There is just as much justification to say that as to say it is highly accurate.
And so your answer to why God doesn't do these things... is that God is lazy. I mean, considering if God exists the design of everything... lazy and incompetent are pretty accurate descriptions.
@@Diviance And how can you possibly know that "the copies we have are completely inaccurate"? How could so many copies, which agree with each other in substance, have come into existence?
@@robertwheeler1158
How could you know the copies are accurate? Perhaps all of the copies stem from a single "copy" that intentionally was written to be inaccurate to corrupt the religion from the start.
How could you possibly prove otherwise?
@@Diviance There are 27 separate books in the New Testament, and each one of them would have had an original manuscript. So now you're turning the discussion to the Higher Criticism of the Bible, whether books themselves in their original form were authentic. I, of course, would argue that they are, but that is a whole other subject and one that would have to be considered on a book-by-book basis. It suffices to say here that the early church fathers put what they put into the canon because they were convinced that they really were authentic.
@@robertwheeler1158
No. I am saying that you have no evidence that someone didn't take the original writings and rewrite them completely different and sent those out, preventing the actual originals from ever being copied directly.
The "early church fathers" were centuries later. They would have had no clue whatsoever what was and what wasn't canon.