Vegan Caller vs. Sam Seder Round 2 FIGHT
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- Опубліковано 4 січ 2020
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In this Majority Report clip, a caller has a thought experiment for Sam.
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"I live in a society" - Sam
"You're not my dad" - Sam Seder
When I bossed my fellow third graders around that was their response.
Personally I prefer ethically sourced, free range humans if that's an option.
i bet there would be plenty of humans who wouldn't mind being raised for food if it was done right, given a choice between that and their current lives
@HKZ P a cat is a perfect carnivore, humans are not.
We are opportunistic omnivores, (but physically we display the traits of herbivores) meaning that we can eat animal products, but we do not have to do it necessary... and giving the fact that this practice is killing our only livable habitat, it is a very stupid choice to make.
And for Sam, a person that has certain concerns about climate change, this subject shouldn't be so "whatever".
@HKZ P presenet evidence for all those claims.
What scientists are you talking about?
And about what sustainable practices involve animal farming for over 7 billion people's nutritional need are you talling about?
@HKZ P that is, if the plants are grown on factory farms
@@bazileia9222 sam seems not at all to be "whatever" on the subject of ethical responsibility and food choices. he has the appropriate attitude towards trolls
Caller: "...People on your side like Destiny and Vaush"
Same Seder's face: who?
I actually laughed out loud at that part
"I haven't been intimate with pigs"
Seder 2020
Arkayem Translation “I have been intimate with pigs”
Sams a good comedian
this is why and how Sam can win the Libertarian vote in 2020
@@scottfrazier8446 Sam's the man
I mean he just pays people to forcibly impregnate them so they can give him mor meat.
This caller prefers to win the argument rather than convince anybody. He's really perpetuating the negative vegan stereotypes, which is unfortunate because he makes some good points.
He does. Just that when trying to equate meat factories to death camps a very poor chose to compare to.
@Matthew Frazier
>He is both unconvincing and illogical and ignorant sounding.
Care to elaborate on that? Cuz I'm suspecting you weren't watching the same vid as we are. Sam made it clear he buys free-ranged and organically-grown meat. Meaning there's far less suffering than the latter.
>At least AskYourself (the caller I think) DOES "win"
Win at what? He admitted his question was a "gotcha question" which are usually done in bad faith. The arguer's choice of argument is comparing slaughter houses for animal meat to sell meat and feed people to literal death camps made to commit genocide. The meat industry doesn't commit genocide otherwise we wouldn't have cows and other livestock existing today. That's the major glaring flaw in that argument. That's just the tip of the iceberg. If he wanted to argue for veganism, there are tons of better choices to make that argument.
This caller is the vegan version of Kellyanne Conway.
I like this ..and I'm vegan...
Sam hasn't seriously considered this topic before, but also the caller isn't doing justice to the topic at all.
Exactly my thoughts
In a hypothetical society where humans eating other humans is ethically permissible, would you as are you are now, that is, not a version of you that would conceivably exist in that society but the version of you that exists in our current society and is somehow projected into the hypothetical society, have any moral objections about eating the Vegan Caller for being insufferable
WHERE'S THE LAMB SAAAUUUUCE
This made me laugh. Thanks
2,000 throats slit per second. Enjoy!
The funniest part is that “society” and “killing and eating other humans being ethically permissible” are mutually exclusive
Sam "I've been friendly with pigs" Seder
Veganism is the morally superior option and I am not a vegan, but this ceaseless need to equate everything as equal is such an annoying and flawed supposition.
I do appreciate your letting this subject be included on your show. However, the fact that animals hunt and eat other animals does not justify the hellish factory farms. Animals are not motivated by greed, only instinct or survival.
We're all animals and some are motivated by greed 😾and all sorts, and some are nice animals 😸 generalising all animals the same as all human animals the same makes no sense, like this annoying caller talking shite. WTF was he even talking about anyway, get to the fucking point instead of some moral gobshitery man jayzus. I'd rather butcher this guy than listen to his verbal diarrhea 🙉
Damien Joseph really the simple question is: Is an animal's life more important than your tastebuds?
@@madnezz1961 for me, no. Most animals have been eating others for a long time and we wouldn't be here otherwise but I don't really care. It annoys my head hearing all these spoilt first world cunts whining about calories and losing weight and all that shite. I like to eat pepperoni pizza, burgers, chips, bacon eggs and all sorts and I appreciate food cos I've known hunger and I'm not a fat fuck crying cos I eat too much, I only cry when and get annoyed when they reduce portion sizes cossa greedy fatties but that's just me. My carbon footprint is lower than most people I see
@@madnezz1961 veganism is fine for some and fair play but it's not for me or others I know from a similar ( blue collar) economic background. I think it's more of a rich kids thing. I have worked in food production and transport of chickens and felt a wee bit sorry for them crammed into crates but their ancestors shouldn't have got lazy and stopped flying, birds that don't fly away get eaten 😼 I've also seen a gang of ducks savagely attacking one of their own, I don't know why or what he may have done. Could've been a paedophile duck for all I know but I didn't interfere as was not my business. Not really relevant but it stuck with me
Are you implying that that's what Sam said? Because that's not what he said AT ALL. He in fact said we do need to cut back...
Meat is unsustainable and considerably adds to climate change. More people should eat less meat and adopt a plant based diet. Morality aside, animal agriculture is a huge part of climate change and we need to consider that.
tIMothy Francis Its worth looking into the ecological impact of the monocropping that takes place to produce staple foods that are used in your plant based diet.
Most agriculture in general is incredibly destructive, not just raising animals. There is plenty of misery, suffering and world destruction on the slave plantations that give us chocolate, avacados, and other plant-based goods, the almond grove monoculture is stealing all californias water and killing all the natural pollinators etc. Theres simply no ethical consumption under capitalism. Small community owned farms with a wide diversity of plants and animals are the future, my friend.
This man is the reason some people hate Vegans. Good job Sam for keeping your cool.
Recent studies suggest that vegetables feel pain as well.
RED EYES cool.
@@Etaoinshrdlu69
independent of the validity of the proposed claim, plant-based diets require less plants deaths than standard meat-eater diets.
@@Etaoinshrdlu69 Oh ho ho, I've always wanted to hear plants scream.
@@Etaoinshrdlu69 I recall a study I read in 1995 where plants squeezed their stomata shut (cringed) when a person walked past who had just mowed lawns. So yeah there's material out there by now for a good vegetarian teasing I'm sure
After 17 minutes. Sam really struggle to not use the word "moral"..
I'm not a vegan. I eat all sorts of meat regularly. But there's not an argument for the diet we have.
@Hello World Food sovereignty>veganism
@@pleasefeedmewaxworms Humans > beasts.
There are so many ways to talk about the issues surrounding meat eating vs veganism but this vegan had to compare it to the Holocaust and reduce the issue into stupid ethical hypotheticals.
I have to assume you're a regular to Sam Seders show? I do realize that from the average persons perspective vegans seem overbearing because.. after all there isn't that many of them and the ones that make it to your screen are the ones acting most verbosely. But you're like what the tenth commenter I've seen so far make this point? Yet this is EXACTLY the format of Sam Seders debates with callers. "stupid ethical hypotheticals" is literally what debate is.
@@Furiends actuallyyyyyyy the stupid hypotheticals are the ones we get from libertarians that we mock mercilessly because there is nothing to be extrapolated and applied to this reality from a scenario so far removed from it. But the Shapiro and Crowder types have to rely on them to get any point across, the other side has to allow them multiple concessions and false premises for the debate to even go anywhere and it's boring and irrelevant.
"Okay Mr so called vegan, if you were stuck on an island and the only thing to eat was meat, would you eat meat?? Checkmate atheists." It's tiresome and bland
I think Sam got a little bit defensive here. Maybe would be better not being so hostile because I believe he could have more interesting points on the problem. I think he was sincere, but unnecessary defensiv on the issue.
Hahahah “i have less of a problem eating animals than I do humans, yes."
Hahahaha
Why though?
@@KingHalik the taste. No matter how much I try it, people taste funny.
@@KingHalik What do you mean WHY?
Man: "I have less of a problem with shagging my girlfriend than shagging my mum!"
IG KingHalik: "Why though?"
@@wabznasm9660 lmaooooooo ahahhhahaha
@@wabznasm9660 I bet you would have a problem eating your gf tho (in a carnivore way not a sexual way)
I eat meat daily but I do understand his moral considerations. My problem with them is that not everyone has access to the sort of “moral diet” that he is proposing. Not everyone can get good, organic, vegan food.
So even if you accept his premise that the meat industry is horrible, it’s really not a choice that most regular people can make.
What’s more expensive: a pound of lentils or a pound of beef?
Its not a choice that EVERYONE can make but regular people certainly can, and should
Those who can do it should do it and those that can't do it at the moment, well it's our job to work towards a future where more and more of them can do it.
@@jackstubbington387 I can, but all those carbs made me fat so I stopped.
"Is eating meat moral? Also, i'm a moral subjectivist." Lmao
Wow you just solved ethics bro
Jesus Christ, I was way too stoned for this shit LMAO
Not gonna lie, some of these debates are best done under such conditions.
holy shit SAME
@@TheSkepticLeftist Because you are all godless junkies lol
I'm not vegan but a lot of people think "You can't design a perfect world so why should I make any effort to do better" is such a good argument and it's just not. We don't need to be perfect, we NEED to be better.
"Keep in mind, Sam, I'm asking you right now. Not you then. But it's about you then, not you right now. So flip and bend you mind, and answer me, bro."
"I have you in a corner"
😂😂😂
He was trying so hard to put Sam in a corner and failed miserably.
@Matthew Frazier
ROFFLE!
Okay.
Caller should begin with the question “do you recycle?”
Personally, I only eat free range humans. It's the right thing to do.
Gotta get the special Iberico humans that eat tons of acorns. You'll never go back!
buttock burgers yum! nuff said
You go insane. You can't eat your own species as eventually you'll develop neurological diseases, just look up mad cow disease.
@@btw3344 the rich are a different species I see evidence of this every day and many of them have great diets which is likely similar to free range pig....their kids more like veal. so we ought to consider the idea just in case it comes down to the dirty deed. trust me if you are hungry enough you will likely be first in line for my soon to be famous buttock burgers farmed from ethically harvested rich people.
@@btw3344 cannibalism doesn't cause mad cow, it's spread by it, though. same type of thing happens with humans. there is some indigenous culture somewhere that eats their dead as part of last rights. females got the less choice pieces, which contained the disease, and were more susceptible
There's a lot of sociopathic people in the comments.
Would agree, pretty moronic arguments being made by meat eaters. A shame
@@craiglee4061 why are you gay
Craig Lee I fucking hate animals. They don’t give a fuck when they cause other beings to suffer, so I don’t give a fuck if I cause them to suffer. Minks are vicious, smelly little assholes and it will be a very cold day in hell before anybody convinced me to feel bad for them being made into fur coats.
Not a great spokesperson for veganism
Not the greatest but good enough to own dairyboi sam
@@peterv2599 that dumb ass vegan can't have a conversation outside of his twitch Bubble. Ordinary people doesn't debate like that. That debate style only works on Twitch.
@@HockeyTownHooligan5 nah, plenty people have been convinced by animal ethics and plenty of progress has been made that way.
This caller just isn't too good at engaging with others.
You can’t justify harming innocent sentient beings for your personal pleasure.
"You can’t justify harming innocent sentient beings for your personal pleasure.
"
A justification is a reason for doing a bad act. i reject the premise that killing sentient beings in itself or torturing sentient beings as a byproduct to obtain a product is bad/immoral. i consider it morally nuetral(amoral). AKA, I obviously can't justify harming them because the very idea is incoherent. it is a category error.
Frank
That product you acquired through “morally neutral” killing and torture, is not a necessary product. It is purely for pleasure.
There are other options that fit the necessity requirement to sustain your life, instead you choose to support killing, torture of animals, unnecessary environmental destruction, could further argue healthcare impacts and costs on the industry... and this is all morally neutral? Because?
@@bamwesty8158
"That product you acquired through “morally neutral” killing and torture, is not a necessary product. It is purely for pleasure.
"
The killing and torture is necessary to obtain the product.
I can throw the same infinite regress at you.
Acquiring food isn't a necessary product. You don't need to survive.
Then you can tell me why you apparently need to survive, and then I can ask you why you need that thing that is apparently necessary to survive, and then we go on an infinite regress until you realize that a need is simple a prerequisite to fulfill a want/objective.
"There are other options that fit the necessity requirement to sustain your life"
Again, why do you need to live? Oh wait, whether or not you NEED something is irrelevant.
I don't need to drink juice to survive. Does that mean I shouldn't drink juice? NO!. I don't need to play video games to survive. Does that mean I shouldn't play video games? NO! Whether something is necessary for survival in itself is not relevant.
"instead you choose to support killing, torture of animals"
Yep.
"unnecessary environmental destruction"
I'm not going over necessities again. i already explained it to you. I support government intervention to mitigate animal agriculture environmental impact. I don't support going vegan to do so.
"could further argue healthcare impacts and costs on the industry... and this is all morally neutral?"
I believe in both medicare for all and a federal jobs guarantee so if people hate their job in animal agriculture they can work somewhere else, and any accrued damages can be fixes for all people across the country. Once we get that THEN it will be morally nuetral for them to be working there, because right now there are probably many that are working there because they don't have a choice, as with MANY other jobs across America where I still shop at. I believe in government intervention and not refusing to participate in my countries economy. Thanks.
"Because?"
The only thing that is not morally nuetral is the worker part and that is because they are forced to work in these conditions which I have a moral problem with and is why I want a federal jobs guarantee. outside of that, I don't consider the environmental factors immoral but detrimental to society and should be mitigated by government intervention, and regarding the killing and torture as a byproduct to obtain a product I do consider it morally nuetral as it
A.Does not contradict my moral frameworks principles
and
B.Has not been demonstrated to be anything other than morally neutral, which is the default position.
Frank Lance How is it neutral?
@@arthurmorgan3260
"How is it neutral?"
Because it doesn't contradict any of my moral axioms(creating a moral obligation to not do it) nor under my axioms is it morally virtuous.
That guy is incredibly annoying and this type of vegan just makes people want to eat meat.
"That guy who wants to end human slavery is incredibly annoying and is the type of negro lover who just makes people want to own slaves." - Your ancestor, probably
Has Wright I commend people for not eating meat but I think that’s a very reductionist take. Regardless I can’t see being an annoying, know it all scold to everyone being productive.
@@haswright4933 Don't compare this to slavery. It's disgusting..
Sam: *in the middle of a sentence*
This guy: "mhm, yep. mhm. you're cutting out."
I'm against factory cannibalism. I like my cannibalism to be farm to table. Hahaha
Free range human .... Mmmmmmmm
Sam: "Matt is kind of intimidating so I won't try to eat him. Brendon tho...food...pass the tabasco."
Brendan: hey boss, brought the tobasco you asked for. What's it for?
Sam:
Brendan: boss?
Sam:
Brendan: ....boss....
I can’t stand people that say they don’t buy factory farm meat. Companies will do anything to hide the negatives of their product. You can legally raise fish on a farm, let them out in the ocean, immediately catch them, and say it’s wild caught fish
Dan If they go to a buffet do they ask the chef where every single piece of meat came from? The idea that people would research all the meat they eat is ridiculous you imbecile
@@elchapojunior3091 Maybe, they don't go to buffets. Maybe, they cook for themselves. It's weird that you don't think anyone will take the time to find were there meat is sourced, when vegans have to literally source check EVERYTHING they eat.
Sentience Institute | US Factory Farming Estimates. We estimate that 99% of US farmed animals are living in factory farms at present. By species, we estimate that 70.4% of cows, 98.3% of pigs, 99.8% of turkeys, 98.2% of chickens raised for eggs, and over 99.9% of chickens raised for meat are living in factory farms.
blackrazor1 no meat eater is going to restrict themselves to a select one or two meat items to buy at the store, if they cared that much they would just be vegan
@@elchapojunior3091 This shows you just want to shit on meat eaters. I made the point about it taking less effort to source free range meat than it does to source everything in my last comment. Sam lives in NYC. You literally get any found you there. I'm they also have a number of farm to table restaurants there. It's like shitting on someone that drives a hybrid car; instead of, an electric.
There is no airtight argument for veganism, but there is no excuse for how lax most of us are in supporting industries that treat animals solely as products. Animals do suffer terribly in factory farms.
There is an air tight argument. The problem is you have to accept that all life has value first. Which you don’t necessarily reach via argument.
I’d say if you’ve ever had a pet, just ask yourself if you’d have a problem with someone killing and eating your pet, outside of it being your property.
value has degrees. Don't really give too much of a crap about a roach lol. My life however... Lol I want to live!
@@TheIncognitusMe Not even vegans can avoid animal death. Analysis I have read indicates eating nothing but farmed vegetables will result in more life lost than eating only grass-finished beef. It can't be a question of quantity of life; it has to be a question of quality of life.
Soyborne. Born, made, and undone by the soy. Of course. Even animal rights promoters don’t care about all animals. They probably wouldn’t give a second thought about killing a spider.
I tend to find the most common view is something like “sufficiently intelligent animals that can feel emotions should be respected.” Which is why people get very pissy about dolphins and stuff, since they’re super intelligent. And, of course, dogs and cats.
theotormon I’m not really sure I follow your point. How could more life be lost from eating only vegetables?
Vegan is just a way to reduce animal harm as much as possible or applicable.
It's an arbitrary position valuing some type of harm above others for purely practical reasons. And no, they don't want to actually reduce harm - otherwise vegans would've advocated against eating chickens and small fish the most.
And every agricultural field is a place of massacre of thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions of lives. But vegans don't care about that, those lives are too inferior to care about.
At least people who consume meat have history of human species as a basis for their views.
And that's great for you. I choose my path. As do others.
space in va der vegans are against all types of harm animal or humans
@@ittakesavillage5461 are they? then why do vegans eat vegetables grown with the help of insecticides? Those vegetables can require more animal deaths than eating a free range cow.
The caller is pretty annoying but Sam thinks he’s being pretty smart here and he’s not , he’s basically saying I don’t have any sense of ethics or morals from within I only can get them from without. So I look to society, to the dominant culture to determine for me what is right and what is wrong.
Not good.
THIS. Thank you. Also, he used an appeal to nature fallacy and he couldn't provide a good answer to the name-the-trait consistency test (since any answer would lead to absurdities).
The problem by you saying that is that you are basing it off of literally nothing.
Sam is giving a moral relativist view and not a subjectivist view which Ask Yourself wants. Moral relativism deals with group determination. Societies determine what is moral and immoral under this framework as apposed to individuals, and society has determined that there is a problem with killing humans whereas there is no problem with killing non-human animals.
Everyone is partially a product of their environment. Eventually, you get exposed to different ideas and start to deviate from what you grew up around. Unless you are a hermit, you have to take societal norms into account. Technically, jacking off on the public bus isn't hurting anyone else, but as a society we've decide that isn't acceptable behavior. I still think it's odd that the caller can't see the difference between humans and other animals.
yup. Sam would not have been able to realize for himself that slavery is wrong. He would have had to wait for Abraham Lincoln to tell him.
If society found slavery acceptable Sam would too?
It sounds silly but isn't there some truth to this?
@@alandgomez5905 The question we must ask ourselves is does it make it right? Slavery is not moral regardless of whether or not it's acceptable by society. It was wrong 200 years ago just as it's wrong today.
@@awesomeal3603 Lol I don't disagree with you, I just think there's some truth to what Sam said. Slavery will always be wrong and I think we'll also get to veganism, eventually. I tend to avoid the word 'moral' myself but I think it can be used to sway others. Be cool.
Idk what ur talking about. We do have slavery going on. Are u out everyday protesting? If not, u must be fine with it.
@@eagle-wingedturtle201 If you're referring to the enslavement of animals in factory farms and slaughterhouses, I would agree with you. I don't agree that you need to actively protest in the streets, because you can advocate for being vegan in other ways that are effective also.
Sam, I appreciated your answer at the end without him on the phone. Debates tend to be useless bc there’s too much interruption to give a thoughtful answer.
Agreed. Sam was not ready for this discussion and the caller was being Lisa Simpson. After the lil chat, Once Sam had some reflection. He entertained a lot of what the caller said and ultimately agreed we need to cut back on how poorly we treat many animals out there.
An easy answer would've been:
"There is too much human suffering for me to devote my limited amount of time and mental bandwidth to caring about veganism as opposed to researching issues that this show is designed to cover. And no I unfortunately don't see humans and animals as equals. Thank you for your call."
*Conversation over*
100%. Sam was mumbling and using so many fillers
You already spend time on shopping for food, hygiene products, clothes etc. All you need to do is choose differently. You aren't losing any additional time.
Also, most of the human issues you can't do anything about. On the other hand, the lives of animals are on your hands. For example, what exactly can you do about murder? Nothing. What can you do about animal slaughter? Stop eating them.
Also, how many of the people using this argument do ANYTHING for human suffering? This is just a common cop-out.
Oh and that's actually not answering the question the caller asked. That's completely besides the point.
Sorry @thatguy I met a girl that dragged me from Bodega to Bodega looking at the back of coconut water bottles. You people are obsessed. In cities eating a quality plant based diet is fucking expensive and time consuming. Not to mention that agriculture destroys the habitats of millions of animals. The instruments literally kill animals, and lastly we have 60 years of top soil left, so this agriculture fantasy to support 9 billion people is complete BS. Go to iTunes or stitcher and listen to "tangentially speaking podcast episode w/ Lierre Kieth" former Vegan who found her sanity
@@antonsterlin9720 No it's not. Legumes, rice, vegetables, grains, and certain fruits are the cheapest foods in the grocery stores. I live in a capital city and I'm not spending any more money than I used to as a non-vegan. Probably even less.
Yes, agriculture destroys the habitats of animals. The issue is that the animals you eat, eat a lot more food than they produce. We'd use up less space for plant agriculture without animal farming. Or do you think the animals you eat get by without eating? Don't be stupid.
I guess women's rights arent a priority to a male worker so why would he care about that. Or why would we care about Healthcare when racism and genocides are still happening.
the problem with vegans debating non-vegans is getting the non-vegan to care.
@@arlarl5122 Prime example. I dont care.
Edit: and vegans really love the smell of their own ass too. that doesnt help
Lorita Alanzo another intellectually dishonest answer. Plants do not have a cerebral cortex. You question a vegan's moral level while you put your tastebuds value over the life of an animal. How do you feel about eating dogs? or cats?
Its simple to me really; you don't have to hold humans and animals on the same equal level morally to make the claim that their death and suffering is not worth less than my taste buds. It's up to the other side to rationalize that their taste for meat is worth more than the suffering and death of another innocent life form.
Alex Wing well there are good reasons for eating meat. Meat is high calorie. And high protein neither of which nature gives up willillingly or easily. Its responsible for allowing us to develop big brains which use a lot of calories. We are biologically omnivores and meat and fish are a good way to supplement our diet. It start to go awry when food becomes industrialized
im a vegan and this guy drives me insane with his manner/direction of argument. saw him on vaush before MR
His voice was very familiar and then he mentioned being on destiny and vaush
Selling an issue like this off of the morality aspect is the literal worst way to try and persuade people to become vegan
Yes. Like individually, it was enough for me to go vegetarian (I was vegan for two years) but saying that eating meat is like eating people lol
Absolutely agree
@@caitieeeee lol then name the trait that makes it okay to eat animals but not humans.
The morality issue is the key point of veganism. Sam just said "society decided this" and "I was born this way". Those arguments were used to justify holocaust and slavery. How can u guys not see that?
I eat meat but Sam should have admitted he doesn't know much about the topic and left it there
Agreed. You could tell he was struggling and didn't want to admit he's a bit in the dark on this issue. He's focusing on much bigger issues.
“I am me, that’s a tautology, right?” Awesome I hate him already
I've been vegan for over 20 years now. Although I appreciated the caller's passion for an extremely important moral issue, his way of setting up the argument was tedious. I personally would just urge people to consider the plight of the animals and the degradation to our planet that an animal-based diet has. In today's world, it's easy and satisfying to be vegan (after a short transition period), such that arguments of taste and convenience don't really hold up well against the heart-breaking devastation such behavior has on the victims. So please consider going vegan for the planet and for the animals.
No, I'm going to eat animals
@@tyrvinodinson9790 well, maybe one day your heart will open up and you will no longer want your actions to be the direct cause for the unspeakable suffering of other sentient beings. And, perhaps you will care enough about our planet to do something within your power to protect it.
@@nyperi13 Oh, I protect the planet. But I kill and eat animals too. Much like 70% of all species on earth.
I do think that sustainability and environmental degradation should be the 2020 argument for veganism. I agree with you.
🧐hmmm, I’m just like 70% of the species on Earth... lemme just write that thought into my iPhone and bounce it of a satellite to share with people worldwide! 😂
Do the people in these comments not realize that sam was playing with the caller? Sam understood immediately what the callers point was, but wanted to play around with the callers logic devices and definitive claims.
Sam even stopped playing the game for a second to say that, of course he wants society to move towards not eating meat. And that one day humans may look back at meat eating the way we today look at slavery. But that right now, practically speaking, it's not the number one priority on a list of pressing and urgent issues.
He started playing when he could not give a good answer, though.
@@pw5975 "But he gave a good answer right away, though."
I must have missed it, could you remind me what it was?
@@itswrongtokillanimalsifyou2837 sam answered his question twice but the caller didn't want to accept that.
@@09daniscool "sam answered his question twice but the caller didn't want to accept that."
What was the answer, specifically?
@@itswrongtokillanimalsifyou2837 sam said early on that yes, if they were in some apocalyptic world where cannibalism were the norm of that society, that he'd probably be as his is now with animal consumption.
But the caller didn't like that answer because it wasn't the gotcha answer that he was fishing for.
The thing about animals killing other animals is that that only applies to carnivores. And then only because they must, or die of starvation.
Tigers can't live on leaves. Applying a moral standard to the behavior of animals assumes a carnivore can stop being a carnivore, which they obviously can't.
Humans, being relatively smart omnivores blessed with the ability to eat almost anything and cursed with a conscience and a sense of empathy, can.
That is not true. The world is full of omnivores.
I don't understand the point you're trying to make and I'm not trying to be a smart-ass I'm just simply saying herbivorous males kill other males for breeding rights all the time.
Also, I do not look to the animal kingdom for my morality.
@@jy3127 Yeah, you're sort of right. Also because they have no choice. But it's not as common as you think. Most breeding rights fights among male animals are mostly posturing and end with minor injuries at worst.
But how is it unethical to eat something which has no sense of self-awareness or consciousness and is going to die anyway?
I wonder what the caller feels like after running over and killing a hedgehog for example. I would BET he'd react differently when running over a human being. I wonder why that might be?
Because he can identify and empathize more with his own species, maybe? I'm just shooting in the dark here, of course...
You don't have to value animals as much as humans to recognize that it's wrong to abuse and kill creatures that have the same five senses you do and that want to live, if you don't have to.
@@itswrongtokillanimalsifyou2837 i agree.
@@Zatzzo +1 Respect
If both are accidents, it's not morally relevant how he feels.
@@paredown. it's about how bad he thinks the loss of life is.
lol Sam "I don't know how sentinent plants are" Seder, meme level 100
well some are more sentient than others, meaning they actually move on their own, and react to being eaten.
@@tonyolo4591
responding to stimuli =/= sentient.
@@handlethisnut Sentient means to feel. If lifeform responds to stimuli, it's sentient. It's pretty arrogant to dismiss plants as non-sentient because they don't have senses we intuitively identify with. Plants definitely respond to stimuli.
Sam is not what we would call a deep person.
@@democrazy69
you know definitions to words exist for a reason. Sentience is the capacity to feel, perceive, or experience subjectively.
s u b j e c t i v e l y.
my iphone responds to stimuli. is it sentient? my calculator also reponds to stimuli. is it sentient?
This guy seriously needs to stop misusing and over using the word holocaust
Right? It was definitely a cheap feels tactic that devalues the word.
Especially when speaking to a Jewish person. He's trying to be dramatic but it is actually insensitive.
martin craughwell well for one thing, he was using is as a verb
beetdiggingcougar the caller is jewish himself
@@swiftie16bit It doesn't mean killing chickens under any definition.
The caller has a choice to be a vegan. Born in another time (in the past) or country/part of the world (like the arctic) , he would likely not have that choice. His choice would be to eat what ever was edible in order to survive. Technology has given him the choice to be a vegan. I don't know where I'm going with this but I do know that asking the types of questions he was asking are not helpful to anyone. It's just a dumb question to ask.
What about being born in another time (the future) or part of the universe (Mars)?
@@chrissmith6097 What color is fast?
We live in this time and this place.
@@NoExitLoveNow Duhhhhhhhhhhh
And Sam has no choice?
"I'm a moral subjectivist."
So you're stating that your argument is invalid by your definitions? Not to throw moral subjectivists under the bus, but if that's the case you can't debate people because it's just about how you feel about the topic.
No, I think what he's trying to prove is that some of Sam's subjective preferences are inconsistent with each other.
You nailed it.
No. Being a moral subjectivist means you don't believe anything is inherently right or wrong, according to some innate mystical standard. Instead, a subjectivist tries to appeal to rational consistency and empathy in order to make moral arguments
@@haswright4933 In philosophy, subjective means "because someone said", while objective means that it is based on reason and logic. Now, who said it was wrong to eat animals; God, the person calling in, a random person from a mental ward; is largely immaterial as it being subjective states that it is immoral based on the person that said so's feeling alone. Whether it is inconsistent, or even completely random, it just matters that it is done because a person said so rather than any underlying logic. This is literally ethics 101, within a month you learn these definitions. If you don't like these definitions, take it up with literally millennia of philosophy because Socrates was arguing with these definitions.
It's possible that they, like you, don't know what they're talking about, but then you would have to wonder why anybody would listen. Wouldn't you?
Never saw a cow killing another one, the same can probably be said about 99,9% of all pigs and chicken, so yeah your argument is nonsense Sam.
Animals kill their own kind plenty of times. Lions are good example of killing a lioness's cubs when when a male lion wins a fight to get the pride so as to use the resources on his cubs over the existing ones. Rats eat their own pups during winter when there are no food to sustain themselves with. There are plenty of animals that kill their own kind for one reason or another.
@@romankvapil9184 and how many lions have you eaten in your life so far? Or rats?
@@einzeltier That's a malformed question and misses my point. Animals kill each other plenty of times and their own for one reason or another. I've not killed my own kind at all. If possible, I would rather eat those animals over my own if I were to choose between eating a human being, or a rat or a lion.
You've never seen a cow killing another? Well, bulls certainly will kill other bulls and guess what a bull is? That's right, a cow.
Maybe because they're not predators?
this guy wasn't a great debater and couldn't concisely pose the questions he was trying to, but he was still right. "animals kill other animals" and "i feel like humans are different than animals" aren't good moral arguments for participating in unnecessary mass suffering of sentient beings. if you were just an egoist who didn't care about societal right and wrongs then this wouldn't matter but your platform is based on utilitarian progressive values that aim to help the most people so it wouldn't hurt to dig into some moral philosophy to ground those positions better (although of course most people don't bother doing that)
Sam was too polite to say "I got shit to do and living by your Vegan morals is not high on my list. If we don't get Bernie elected we can't have nice things, so have a nice day you Canadian fuckwit"
Looks bad for the vegan caller. I went to that hypothetical place where humans are consumed and before I could morally decide right and wrong, I saw the caller munching down on someone. I want the caller to explain his hypocrisy in that hypothetical world.
What a waste of a call
said 1-800-PHONE-SEX to you ;)
why dont they talk about the fact that humans actually cannot eat other humans? we get the human equivalent of mad cow disease.
@2013TAMU Do you not have to eat the *brain* of an infected fellow human to contract a prion (misfolded protein) disease? Or eating the brain increases the risk but you can also get it from other infected tissues? Asking for a friend who happens to be a cannibal (jk) :P
@@robertjenkins6132 you can get it even if you avoid the brain. You can also get parasites eating the meat of certain carnivores like wolves.
I eat people all the time, never got a disease. Then again we go to clinics to get tested first. Badabum tss.
The caller goes by the handle Vegan Gains. I've stumbled on his "debates" before and I really don't like his framing or his takes on politics. He unironically stated in a debate with Vausch that feminism and intersectionalism has ruined vegan activism. He also doesn't think that capitalism is a real issue when it comes to meat production and climate change. He has brain worms
Edit: Apparently this isn't Vegan Gains but some other asshat called Askyourself. Either way the comment stands
That was not vegan gains
different guy i think but similar style
I'm sorry. It sounded so much like Vegan Gains. Gains even does that weird framing routine
Rory Saurus this isn’t vegan gains lmao
Any vegan who doesn't get that capitalism is the problem with meat is just a glorified health nut
Talk about comparing apples to post apocalyptic industrial human meat farming.
I mean unnecessarily slaughtering sentient beings and then justifying it with "society said so" and some arbitrary reasons is moraly consistent with that example.
@@KingHalik What do you mean by sentient? Are you referring to humans? Large sections of the human society survive due to factory farming today, human meat farming is quite a different situation to that by nature, let alone comparing it to agricultural apple farming practices today.
@@adoredpariah Large sections of human society starve because of factory farming. Meat causes cancer and heart disease. The industry is also one the biggest contributors to climate change. So i'd say large sections of human society suffer/die because of factory farming. Look up the definition of sentience if you don't understand what i mean by it. But im sure you do.
@@KingHalik human slaughter sentient being all the time and for literally no reason, not even for food - humans kill humans. This isn't about sentience, consciousness, intellect or anything else. It's about being able to consume and digest meat, and being predisposed by tummy rumbling to do so. I'm sorry that the meat industry is so rapacious, but if anything is going away it'd have to be the behaviour alone, because the industry will be around for as long as we have mouths and bellies.
@@KingHalik When I said large sections of society survive from factory farming I mean, just that, whether moral or immoral in the grander scheme of things there are people in positions economically or geographically that would be malnourished and/or possibly starve to death without a great deal of the processes we use there, and this is a large percentage of the planets human population.
Agreeing with sam again, the moral choice of eating animals is one that I personally would prefer less to no of if possible, to go further I would love to see technologies that help to remove us from such requirements entirely, the "perfectly" ethical thing as self aware actors would be to remove ourselves (globally) from the equation of the environment enough that it can return to a more healthy state, but in the meantime there are billions of mouths that need to be fed, so to speak.
The original point was that it is not a fair or equivalent moral comparison to swap out humans for the animals that we farm currently. There are not only health reasons, but cultural and societal reasons on top of the act of killing for the purpose of eating being itself a moral question.
I think Sam is saying that if he starts to see chickens protesting the deaths of chickens, then he'd have an issue with it. These animals need to start pulling their weight in the fight for their liberation.
@@Khonen I think the OP was making some levity there.
My takeaway: If you give me a hypothetical question, don’t be mad when I give you a hypothetical answer that you happen to not agree with, trying to imply that it applies to this reality, when it in fact does not.
I grew up in the "third world" and know what REAL HUNGER feels like. Call me a troglodyte or unevolved, but other than cats and dogs I feel no emotional connection to animals. I don't eat beef or pork for health reasons, not because I feel any sort of moral aversion towards eating the meat. We have so much human suffering in the world. Where tf were these moralists when my family was starving? Let's concentrate on the human family first and once we fix that I will shed a tear for cows, pigs et al.
Ive slaughtered a few animals like sheep and goats but yea no emotional contact whatsoever. I'd probably save a dog over a stranger though if there wasn't time to think and the choice was explicit.
I always get my morals from animals in the wild. Why only the carnivorous animals? Because.
Kasey Kohler always with the cherry picking, right? Afraid to use whole logic.
Much like hogs, dogs, bears, and many other species humans are onmivorous.
@@eagle-wingedturtle201 Dogs aren't omnivores.
Sam admits vegans are right, says it's a goal. Just doesn't feel like it.
Who cares that promoting a well balanced vegan diet would cure most of the diseases affecting Americans: diabetes, heart attacks and obesity, making the demand for Medicare 4 all less of a dire need and less expensive? Who cares that veganism would reduce our carbon footprint that they claim is causing global warming and killing all those poor koalas? Bunch of insufferable hypocrites, all these people.
I don't like Greta Thunberg and I don't agree with her politics or forecasts but I respect that she tries to walk the talk and is consistent with her flawed ideology.
@@kazuoua how does this correlate with op
@@kazuoua the problem is the industry, not the actual consumption of meat.
@@hugosilva400 it's not like they're forcing people to buy meat.
@@kazuoua oh, agreed. I didn't mean that. What I meant is that eating meat isn't problematic itself, the problem is how most of the meat is obtained.
While people aren't directly forced into buying it, sometimes they have to buy the cheapest meat, which is the industrialized one
Well, first off, consumption of animal meat doesn't cause catastrophic genetic discrepancies like eating humans does...
I'm not sure if you're doing this, but it seems like some people argue that the badness of killing humans for food consists of it being unhealthy for us. I'm kind of astonished that anyone would look at that scenario and only have that issue with it. Thinking, feeling humans.
@@redrick8900 Why would it matter? If the wrongness of killing is found in thwarted preferences and suffering, humans being more important and meat being natural is irrelevant.
@@ludvig5597 Your premise is false. That isn't what the "wrongness" of murder is based on. That's the word, "murder." Killing isn't wrong, never has been. No one is mad about weeding gardens, or killing pest infestations.
"humans being more important and meat being natural"
Isn't irrelevant. It's why you can't win.
@@redrick8900 I thought you'd figure I didn't mean 'killing' full stop.
Put moral relevance on whatever you wish. I'd vote against you.
@@ludvig5597 I can't "know what you mean." That kind of thing is reserved for people with reasonable thought processes and you are pretending veganism is moral superior.
Also, murder doesn't apply to animals so if you are conceding that killing is moral most of the time and it's murder that's wrong you've already conceded.
I in no way think Sam is obligated to have a moral conversation if he doesn’t want to. But the caller is right that Sam unequivocally dodges the moral question. And these are moral questions.
Kinda not. I mean, sure, he denied having a moral issue in the first place, but the caller was asking a very silly silly question that was created to pin down someone, not elucidating anything.
Slaugmr Omni Sam answered the question to the best of his abilities. But he didn’t explain it well. So let me try to clarify. If he was raised in a canniblistic society, it wouldn’t be immoral in his eyes to eat another human being. Because society dictated that it wasn’t immoral. So, society today, dictates that eating animals isn’t immoral, but killing other humans is.
@@animegaming4057 I think you're right in your interpretation of Sam's approach. But it betrays on Sam's part a deep misunderstanding or ignorance of moral discourse (at least as it is traditionally practiced in, say, philosophy). Sam seems to be implying that his morality does and would track the dominant morality of his society. But this seems obviously false, at least as a general principle (and when we're discussing morality, that's crucial). I'm sure Sam could come up with myriad instances over the past, say, thirty years in which he whole-heartedly rejected the dominant morality of his society (on social issues, on issues of war and peace, on economic issues, on issues pertaining to education or health care etc.) I cannot believe that Sam's actual view is that whenever and wherever you plopped him in history (i.e., if you changed the time and place of his birth) he would automatically adopt the dominant morality. This is both highly presumptuous and unfair to himself. Does Sam really just assume that he would be pro-slavery had he been born in the early eighteenth century? Perhaps, but how could he possible know that with enough confidence to ground moral judgments? This is at best lazy thinking, and it serves to skirt the important theoretical issues.
There are a few more problems with Sam here. First, it is an entirely acceptable and highly useful to place ourselves (our current selves) in other times and places and make moral judgments. This isn't to pat ourselves on the back or to sneer at how backwards people were in the past. It's to elucidate our moral principles and to better ourselves. If current Sam were to be placed in antebellum America, he would certainly be appalled at the practice of slavery and would (I'd hope) judge the practitioners negatively. It would be relevant to then ask what about their activity made it immoral. Is there a principle upon which one's negative moral judgement can be based? Is there an argument to be made, e.g., about whether and why a society absent slavery is morally superior to one with slavery? And so on and so forth.
And second (I suppose this follows from what I've already said), there is no logical connection between "society has dictated the moral righteousness of x" and "x is morally righteous", unless, that is, one subscribes to the (I think) indefensible claim that what is moral is just what a given population happens to think is right (for whatever reason). I have no problem saying that slavery is morally indefensible, not just for those of us who live in a modern society that dictates this - it has NEVER been morally acceptable to enslave another.
I should probably stop since I've gone on a while and I'm not sure how intelligible I've been. But I think it's important to point one one more problem with Sam's thinking here (and, again, I think this follows from what I said above). The phrase "society dictates x" is terribly, uselessly vague. Is it true that society dictates that eating non-human animals isn't immoral? Well, it depends entirely on how one defines 'society' and what it means for society to 'dictate' something. Of course it's true that eating non-human animals is legal, and most people eat meat, but millions don't. Millions of people in our society find the eating of meat to be morally wrong. This is just to say, to reiterate, that the notion of "society dictates" that Sam relies on here is not unproblematic.
That's why I intimated above that Sam should just have ducked out of this conversation, given that he wasn't willing to have the philosophical conversation the caller desired. (Then again, it's his show and he can do whatever the hell he pleases - but at a certain point Sam comes off not very well because he engages in the conversation without doing any of the hard work necessary to actually have it.)
Slaugmr Omni I can agree with, pretty much all of this. I’m a new sub and just found this channel so I don’t know his ideology yet. I just happen to like the way he spouts some things so I’m here to stay a while and see where things go. But about history and how where we would be if we were to be born into it... we don’t exactly know how it would change us and how we would be shaped if we were to live in those times. I’ll use my history as an example. I have a proud history as my last name comes from Meade. So my great grand father was general meade who defeated Lee at the battle of Gettysburg. So, I’d like to think that throughout history, including today as I marched with Bernie rallies, helped with Justice Democrat’s, and fight for the progressive movement, that id be on the right side of history all the time. But, in my family, I do have racists, I do have corrupt cops, I do have murderers, I do have drug dealers, so am I just my grand fathers lucky child? Am I the only fighter that I know of in the Meade family?
Slaugmr Omni And the only reason I am like the way I am is because the age of information. I was a republican because of the family I grew up with. Especially after 9/11. Then I became Democrat after years of conflict. Then, after a few years of lies of Obama, I didn’t know what to believe, then Bernie came out of nowhere, and that’s who I followed ever since. Not blind loyalty, but because he’s just factually the correct choice. He is 97% right on every issue. There is no other candidate that comes even close. Even Elizabeth Warren comes at a staggering 60%. She’s our second best and she still fails by all accounts.
Why don’t you just admit that vegans are morally superior? It would shut this guy up. I’m not vegan but I realize they are morally superior. Just because you do slightly immoral stuff sometimes doesn’t mean you’re evil
_"Just because you do slightly immoral stuff sometimes doesn’t mean you’re evil"_
In his short video "Are Nonvegans Evil?" Ask Yourself (the caller) explicitly states that. I'd encourage you to watch it.
"Why don’t you just admit that vegans are morally superior?"
Because vegans have yet to demonstrate that they are. I reject that they are.
Please demonstrate that it immoral to kill and exploit these animals, or that it is morally virtuous to not do so. Thanks.
Frank Lance being compassionate to others is morally superior to being unnecessarily violent to others. Is your problem with this statement only when the others are nonhuman animals or do you think it’s morally ambiguous for someone to go out stabbing innocent victims?
@@hematadopormenos
"being compassionate to others is morally superior to being unnecessarily nonviolent to others."
Demonstrate that being compassionate to animals in the discussed way is morally superior than not.
Also, it is not unnecessary, as a necessity/need is a prerequisite to fulfill a want, and in order to obtain an animal product an animal must necessarily be exploited and/or killed.
"Is your problem with this statement only when the others are nonhuman animals or do you think it’s morally ambiguous for someone to go out stabbing innocent victims?"
1st of all, it has nothing to do with non-human vs human. I literally give no fuck about unborn human lives at any point in the pregnancy. I live in Illinois, which just legaled abortion completely, so theoretically if a woman wanted to kill her unborn right before giving birth she wouldn't be prosecuted, and I am damn happy that this is the case. I have no problem with that happening.
2nd of all, whether or not something is "innocent" is irrelevant in determining moral value. Plants are innocent. Who cares. Innocence is not relevant unless you have already determined that the being in question has morally significant value. I reject the premise that the animals in question have any morally significant value.
3rd of all, if you are talking about me having a problem with stabbing actual innocent people, yes, because it is both immoral under my moral framework AND completely detrimental to society to allow such a precedent. It would destabilize society, which is a problem. Killing animals for food is neither immoral under my worldview, or detrimental to society. There are specific detriments regarding animal agriculture(animal agriculture=/=killing animals), and I not only believe that veganism CAN NOT solve it(as there is no chance that even half of the world's population will go vegan by 2050), but I believe that IF we are going to solve it, it is going to be through government intervention. Policies such as reducing or negating animal agriculture subsidies, taxing their emissions, regulating their practices, and capping deforestation are what I want.
@@franklance9167 vegans are morally superior because the production of the food they eat is generally less harmful to the environment
Morals aside, a well planned plant based/vegan diet makes sense on the science alone. Or do we not need fiber, folate and vitamin C?
It is very cool that sam is denouncing a diet that would drastically increase the american health while supporting mediacare for all. Seems like he is really concerned about his fellow americans.
Lol vitamin d3 and b12 is very important too.
@@btw3344 Yes. You can easily suplement those. The animals u eat are actually supplemented with b12. It doesn't make a difference if u take it directly.
@@KingHalik lol you can just say the same thing about fiber, folate and vitamin c. JUST SUPPLEMENT BRO, is not an argument. Just stick with the moral arguments, vegans win those all day.
@@btw3344 Dude you are supposed to go vegan because it causes unnecessary suffering and damage on a gigantic level. Meat causes cancer and heart disease. That's why it is better to supplement b12 directly instead of stealing it from those animals. It is really painful to see leftists going against their own ideology just because of taste pleasure at least be honest about it. Your answer doesn't even make sense in the context my earlier statement.
This vegan guy is annoying for sure, but Sam lost credibility in my eyes when he answered the question about the reason he doesn't view eating humans and animals through the same "moral" (whatever that means) kens by saving basically that it amounts to popular opinion (society judges killing animals for food as acceptable and killing humans for food as unacceptable).
Justifying your beliefs by saying "that's what everybody thinks" deserves the same credit as the 5 year old's excuse of "everybody was doing it". Super weak and lazy.
Ben Bartee I think his point was that it's pretty silly to answer the question imagining a hypothetical world where Sam grew up in a post apocalyptic world where human cannibalism was the norm. Hypotheticals can sometimes be useful, but in this case it's a serious stretch to imagine that. For example, if you grew up in a world where everyone ate their own shit, would you think that was gross? You now would say that's disgusting, but if you were raised from childhood to do it and everyone did it, THEN would you think it's gross? How do you answer that question? It's an example of a stupid hypothetical.
I was actually presented with that in a different way and I think it's not weak and lazy now lmao "If everyone jumped off a bridge, would you do it to?" And the answer is Yes actually probably. Why are they jumping off the bridge? Why has everyone simultaneously decided that to be the correct course of action? The context of the behavior is incredibly important and that's what I drew from Sam here.
The better question would have been: “Since you subscribe to whatever society says is morally okay, are you starting to change your mind as society is beginning to recognize the immoral nature of factory farming?”
I’m a daily meat eater who views the meat industry as a profoundly immoral enterprise akin to the holocaust but several scales larger. The conundrum as I see it is that I don’t believe any one individual is immoral to eat or buy the meat, as the scale of the meat industry is too large for any one individual’s non-participation to have any meaningful effect. Without any meaningful effect, action wields no moral dimension.
Ultimately I don’t expect meat consumption will ever end. But I do believe we will see an industry develop in the next fifty years around what I imagine will be called vitro meat, either meat grown in a lab or from genetically modified animals bred without the capacity for consciousness, and I think this alternative will be a very easy sell on the public’s conscience and lead to the beginning of the end for the meat industry as we know it.
I wholeheartedly disagree with your premise that because an action or lack thereof yields little meaningful effect there's no moral dimension to it.
At the time of slavery people could've used the same argument to justify their actions towards slaves. It's an argument from futility that doesn't deal with the problem at all.
I'll first through you a curve ball since you seem to at least be thinking about the bigger issue here then I'll give you my broader perspective. Would you hunt animals, kill them and prepare them yourself to eat them? You don't actually have to answer just keep it in mind.
Ultimately the system humans have created to cultivate other animals is not even remotely the same as predation in the wild and the system we created implicates each individual. If as I mentioned each person hunted for food and that lead to a tragedy of small decisions then you could say each actor knew what they were doing on a small scale but were not aware or responsible to it on a large scale.
However the implication of any persons meat consumption does reflect on a larger conundrum that even Sam Seder gets diluted by. If all meat eaters ate grass fed free range there would be more animal suffering not less. Because in order to support such a system would require the transformation of more of the entire worlds land mass to raising animals to be eaten causing the destruction of all other environments. This after all is pointing right in the face of the problem here and why human-animal husbandry is nothing like anything else in nature. We play God, other animals do not.
Color me surprised but in the three decades I've been following in vitro meat there is nothing that inspires confidence. There is no reason to believe it'd be healthy, there's no reason to believe it'd cost less except glossy media blurbs, there's no reason to believe it'd ever scale well, it wouldn't keep better, it'd cause higher wealth disparity unless of course poor people just get be vegans. Meanwhile we already have a massive growth of the plant based concentrated protein products like the Impossible Burger, various bean paddies and meat substitutes and people are buying these things in droves. Its currently the top product type sold in grocery stores across the country if you can believe that.
No actually, slavery is an ongoing act of cruelty from a slaveowner’s direct contact and treatment of a slave. The act of cruelty in the meat industry occurs in the production of the meat completely separate and out of the hands of the consumer. A slaveowner has a daily and perpetual opportunity to effect the life of a slave, to choose not to force them to work, to let them free, it requires ongoing abuse. The meat eater has no opportunity to effect the lives of the animals in the meat industry, it continues no matter what the meat eater does.
A lot to unpack. Firstly, no I would not hunt or kill animals. As for your allegation that eating free range animals would cause more animal suffering because of devastating ecosystems, you’d have to conduct a pretty damn extensive and detailed study to be able to make that cost benefit analysis between the two. One obvious kink in that belief is that the animals which would suffer and die as a result of changing ecosystems would suffer and die only once. The animals bred by the meat industry suffer and die in perpetuity, in ever increasing body counts. To your notion that the current system implicates each individual, I would argue no it does not. If you have no meaningful effect on the system no matter what you do, you are not involved. The meat industry will continue along unchanged whether one packet of steak fails to sell or not. It’s only in the combined scale of consumption, which is not effected by any one individual’s buying or consuming habits, that any meaningful changes occur. As for vitro meat, like anything it is dependent on technological advancement, and is a matter of time and the level of attention given. It wasn’t until now that there has developed enough consumer interest in reducing the suffering of animals. So the level of focus given to this field is currently increasing on a scale the last several decades couldn’t touch. And the capability of genetically engineering and breeding an animal with no brain or capacity for consciousness is only a matter of time. At which point it may not be all that prohibitively expensive to develop on a large scale.
@@IcarusLime You're missing the point. You're saying the consumer has no responsibility in what they buy because it's not in their hands whether or not animals are killed for food, that's not true. It's supply and demand, of course it has an effect.
In my analogy with slavery you'd say you are justified in buying products made by slaves because if you boycott them you'd have little impact on what happens to them.
So he asks Sam "what's true of one that if it was true of the other would cause you to have the same evaluation." Bottom line? Show me another animal that can join a philosophical conversation and reflect on it's mortality and higher purpose and I WON'T EAT IT.
C Luvzinfo we can never quantify animal intelligence
If it was possible, i think i could show you millions of people uncapable of philosofical thoughts or morality disscutions. And soooo many people that go through life, not just without a contributiin for humanity or even their comunity, but people that actualy harm their families and comunities and are less productive than animals.
Please stop thinking this way. You may think you have the perfect excuse to not lower your meat consumtion because there will never be an animal with philosofical thoughts (and if there is, its impossible to communicate this). I think Albert Einstein said once that "we should not judge a fish by his abilities to climb a tree, beacause we will allways be dissapointed" We should all be more comparionate and do our best to lower animal suffering, over consumption, pollution, and to increase other indicators.
Please don't just listen to some crazy vegan, and because you don't agree with him/her, use that as an excuse to don't do nothing. The cause behind the disscution remains is the same and true - less suffering and unnecesary pollutio. Im not vegan either, we should all just do our best to be better.
I hope you undestand what i've tried to say. Sorry for my english.
I think you might have misunderstood the question. The question is "what's true of one that if true of the other would cause you to say that it is acceptable (buying free range human meat)". So in the example you gave, you'd then logically be forced to bite the bullet that if a human is incapable in engaging in a philosophical conversation, then it's fine to eat them.
@@DiamondMoneyMiner no. Responding to OP last sentence, i said that just because something isn't capable of philosophical thinking, you shouldn't eat them.
@@marimaria8256 oh yeah I wasn't responding to your comment, but OP
Most evasive I have ever seen Sam get.
I've never seen someone pose a hypothetical this outlandish and then force Sam to keep to it even after it been mocked. If the jetpack libertarian had been like this Sam would have at some said "look the premise of the question in the way you're asking it is absurd, I'm not answering it" like he had to do here lmao
He was evasive because the caller was dishonest and searching for soundbites.
@@britishrocklovingyank3491 no he wasn't. Sam was playing the mental gymnastics here.
One weird thing, Sam lumps all animals together. He says animals kill each other and don't react like humans, but that's not at all true. Some animals are just prey. According to him, you can eat herbivores because there are carnivores that also want to eat them, so the prey has no say.
yep, but the caller was having such a hard time operwting out of his own perspective that he couldn't hone in on that slip up. earthling ed would have definitely seen the hypocrisy there, but he knows calling into a show like this is a lost cause, so he doesnt
Yeah but if prey can kill their attackers when they came after them, they will most certainly try. And if they succeed, they aren’t going to jail. The point Sam is making isn’t that we should only eat animals that are predators, it’s that wild animals as a whole do not have a morality system. It is primitive. It is kill or be killed
most wild animals larger than a cat are dangerous, carnivorous or herbivorous. a moose or a kangaroo or a baboon will kill a human in a second.
Sam "society said so" Seeder with a great and totally not disingenouis take on veganism. Thank you!
@@Disentropic1 Sam is not a fool. He knows exactly that his argument is messed up. He knows he is wrong but instead of being open about it he gets defensive. If you're a leftist and someone confronts you with the facts about veganism and this is your answer, I can't take you seriously. He wants to feel morally superior. And can't stand to "lose" a debate. That's it.
@@Disentropic1 Damn i wish i could express myself that good. :D
Correct me if misunderstood your point.
This kind of community sounds extremly dangerous to me. Your sense of unity shouldn't be influenced by disagreement and/or new ideas as a result of (self-) reflection. This gets extremly dangerous if the majority of that community engages in imoral acts. The unity, image, positivity or whatever of this community stands in no comparison to the suffering and damage meat consumption causes. I think this community misses a great chance by acting that way.
That aside.
I know that we need a strong connected network to counter alt-right ideoligies since they seem to agree on literally anything. But that doens't mean that we should copy their obvious faults. We should do better. And i think we can be more succesful even if we sometimes disagree on certain issues. As long as we stay honest. But from an outside perspective he doesn't seem any better than Shapiro with that "society said so" mindset. Perhaps i'm overreacting but he's i think thats highly irresponsible of him. I mean why not thriving for improvment rather than we can't disagree or the unity/my reputation is endangered?
Ask yourself is the caller
I'm a meat eater and started out thinking the vegan was hopelessly outclassed, but seriously Sam, "we live in a society and that's what we've decided" is the worst possible answer - vegan dude ate your lunch.
It was "illuminating" for lack of a better word, the way in which he responded. He should have ended it quickly but he didn't want to give the caller the satisfaction.
@@R3dTi3nJ3ans I agree with your assessment, but it just makes it all the more embarrassing.
@@k1m6a11 For both of them, agreed.
actually, it was a pretty smart response. he was asked what is moral, and he deferred by saying more or less that "morals" don't exist by themselves and are decided by humans collectively. so the caller must argue affirmatively for a distinct moral framework or argue for Sam to extend his system, which strongly depends on the idea of reciprocation and is agnostic on the question of non-human lives, to creatures that naturally cannot reciprocate.
What was wrong with that answer?
This vegan argues like a libertarian.
oh my god I hate it but you're right
I think he is one. It's Ask Yourself. I'm vegan and personally get annoyed with some of his arguments. Like he actually argues that veganism is not a leftist issue. He refused to answer my comment about vegans being overwhelmingly left because of so many correlating ideologies. But you know, he lives in white suburban Canada and listens to metal ....so you know how that goes. Also he's friends with the vegan bigot himself Vegan Gains.
Yeah because it is so leftist to fund the most harmful and destructive industry of our time. No real leftist would denounce veganism when confronted with the science.
@@KingHalik Exactly, I agree.
@@KingHalik what are you even talking about? Who denounced veganism? Not choosing veganism as personal choice is not the same as denouncing veganism. That's like being anti-war and being told you are denouncing having a military. Those dots don't connect.
1.) you can’t eat human meat as a part of your normal diet
2.) animals kill each other ruthlessly and mercilessly
3.) they are some tribes that eat people and are okay with it , so it depends on the type of Society you are in.
Just because animals kill each other ruthlessly and mercilessly doesn't mean that we have to do the same. I'm not against meat eating btw. I just want animals to be treated better. Maybe an animal welfare program for them.
NSGR DFSTS they’ll be alright. Dogs have more rights than some groups of people in America so you don’t have to worry about that.
@@trethearsenal7627 imagine thinking that dogs have more rights than some groups in America. I'm not even arguing for animal rights, I'm arguing for animal welfare btw.
As a vegan, this guy sucked. He cared more about "winning" the debate than he cared about actually educating people.
Nothing he said was new info to anyone, he is just doing what vegans always do, try to make it a moral issue, which it is not. Anyways, no vegan arguments educate anyone ever, we already know the arguments.
Broad assumptions about groups of people always diminish the strengths of an argument. As a vegan myself, the callers argument did not play to Sam's priorities. You can be vegan for animals AND humans. For example, pig farms in the Carolina's are spraying pig waste into fields and the open air. Workers in these farms are almost always people of color, working under the table or getting paid less than they should be, but they get hurt, and die working in these farms. Not only that, but the pig waste being sprayed into the air, travels downwind to low socioeconomic communities, with majority people of color living there. Most vegans forget or don't care to talk about the intersectional human aspect to veganism. I'm vegan for those pigs, those farm workers that have no other choice, and the communities of color being impacted by factory farming. Just to name a few.
"I want my cannibalism... Farm to Table" is one of the best UA-cam quotes of all time.
This conversation probably would have gone way better if the caller wasn't super into trying to get this hypothetical situation over.
I think the caller was wrong, ultimately, but his point in using a hypothetical was what is typical of ethical discussions. It's intended to flesh out principles and reasoning. Seder really doesn't think deeply about moral issues, as he admitted. He just goes with whatever is socially acceptable. This is problematic even if you aren't vegan and disagree with the caller.
THe caller wanted Seder to formalize reasoning on why it is okay to eat non-human animals, but not people. It's rather easy to defend, but Seder made zero real effort.
Damien Rafalowski Sams argument seemed to be that because predation is a part of nature, its not intrinsically unethical
@@jlrinc1420 I don't think killing is intrinsically unethical either. My disagreement was when Seder tried to claim he sees it done in nature as a justification for himself doing it to them. The fact that X does Y to X doesn't mean it's okay for A to do Y to X.
I don't agree with the premise that because it is natural, it is therefore ethical. Rape is natural and widespread in the wild, too. Does not mean we should derive the principle that rape is okay because we see violent fucking in the animal kingdom. :)
Most animals have no agency or choice. We can choose to eat low on the intelligence scale and reduce the harm. They can't.
That was one part of it, but Seder's secondary argument was that "society deems it unacceptable to eat people, therefore it is." That's also a bad argument, because it means literally anything can be okay if your society says so. It's cultural relativism. In the South during the 18th-19th century, it was acceptable to own people. But most would say that slavery is wrong, regardless of what society finds acceptable or the norm.
The vegan caller was right. If Sam Sedar uses animals in the wild as his example, then some animals in the wild eat their own children. I guess Sam is ok with that too.
Yes, It's called an *appeal to nature fallacy.*
Other animals are not human beings who have developed the rule of law
Also animals are inevitably killed when harvesting plants so I guess if you eat plants you don’t grow you are saying it’s ok to holocaust animals.
@@menzere2009 Comparing humans to animals would reduce humans to ANIMALS. That's a great moral stance to take. Snickers.
Will Humans are animals. The moral thing Sam did was a bit lame I admit but everyone draws a line somewhere. The Palm oil industry is catastrophic. That said eating less meat a good thing.
We don't need to eat animals to thrive. We do it for taste, tradition, convenience... Is that a good enough reason to end the life of a being that wants to live? If you're struggling with the answer it's "no"
*shrugs*
@jshowa o Veganism is a decision to practice decency, empathy, basic kindness toward animals. It is a decision to not participate in the abuse of animals. All food originates with plants. Animals have, to the best of our understanding, sentience that plants do not have. If a person does not want to kill plants, they can eat fruit, nuts, seeds and grains that drop from trees and other plants.
Plants are "alive" too and human beings don't "need" plants to survive either... We can live on a all meat diet... the only reason anyone views this as a "moral" issue is because we have the cognitive thought to even conceive of something like morals in the first place
@@flechetteXXX All food whether from animals or plants, originates with plants. Only photosynthesis creates food. Food from animals originates from plants. Plants are alive, but not sentient. If they are sentient, provide the proof.
@@c2farr I never said they were and you're completely ignoring the rest of my comment
Name the trait is a gotcha argument for veganism, it's not persuasive at all because people don't follow the argument easily, there are definitely better ways of presenting veganism to people, this is counterproductive
If we're talking about the whole internet and vegans spreading the message as a whole I agree with you. But this is exact context for all of Sam Seders debates with his callers. The main differences I'm seeing here is that Sam takes an approach of "don't care, don't know what you're talking about"
It's classic Debate tactics, Sam uses gotchas against libertarians too
@@HugoStiglitz1942 What point did this guy think he was making, though?
"Killing people is wrong because society has determined it's wrong"
"Well what if you lived in a world where no society made that determination, would it be ok to kill people then?"
"Maybe"
What more do you want? This call was a complete waste of time.
@@ZishPOE Sam didn't get the point he was trying to make.
Sam said the trait he considers as the primary reason for consuming animals is that other animals kill each other and they don't seem to care. Now when the caller shifts perspectives and takes on the human context that's what follows, Sam would say then that if humans are killing and eating each other and they didn't seem to care, then he'd be as justified to kill and eat another human just as it was the case in the animal context.
As I said, it's a difficult to grasp argument that's why I don't tend to say it to people, it's logical, yes, but not persuasive.
@@yaribsuarez8725 It was bullshit. The caller made no sense at all.
“Nature is cruel but we don’t have to be” - Temple Grandin
Not a vegan btw. I can see their logic though and how what I eat could be considered morally reprehensible. We don't need to make living things suffer the way we currently do in order to survive. However I was raised on meat and it's hard to change
Shite, I could care less. I couldn't afford all the expensive options. I buy what I can afford. I make little money and gotta feed me and my kid. Fuck morals, I want to survive and not be so mal nourished that I have health issues constantly. Is a vegan diet healthier? Maybe, but it aint for me and someone trying to be on some moral high horse cuz they don't is annoying.
Well I don't know who that guy is but what he said was really stupid.
When he said Destiny and Vaush I knew it was Askyourself.
It is very simple: Yes, I'm specieist. I discriminate on the basis of species, because that's the best approximation to the ability to perceive and experience suffering. I don't eat primates, dolphins, whales, corvids, or elephants. I also believe (large) mammals deserve more protections than clams, parasites, coral or bugs, but if done properly, a quick death for a mammal from a butcher or hunter is preferable to being eaten alive by a predator.
I have no problem with eating oysters with a lemon, though.
I always wonder how those vegans would deal with a tapeworm or a nematode infection. Those are animals.
Plenty of vegans also recognize degrees of sentience.
Well, I think in the modern, developed word it is our responsibility to avoid causing unnecessary suffering.
Farm animals are generally quite intelligent, especially pigs who are on par with dogs in this regard. Intelligence is just one factor, but for me personally it is enough to oppose breeding them just to kill and eat. However I also recognize that they are very differend from fish, which is why I am pescatarian. Maybe some day I will move to fully vegetarian, but today isn't that day and I know for a fact that I will never be vegan.
Vegan isn't the only option out there. Even vegetarian or pescatarian is a move in the right direction, which is less unnecessary suffering.
Queen Mediva dairy and egg industry causes a lot of unnecessary suffering. when male chicks are born, they are immediately thrown into a macerator because they are “trash” dairy cows are routinely raped to ensure that she is always pregnant and able to produce milk. when the calf is born, they are immediately separated from their mothers. if the calf is a boy, will be immediately sent to slaughter so humans can have baby cows (veal) and if she is a girl, she will go thru the same milk producing cycle as her mom for 5 years then sent to slaughter
@N S You are very welcome, milord.
@@tiena6630 I know pigs are pretty smart. I'm working on cutting it out of my diet, but I would be lying if I said I don't eat it. I can't afford organic meat yet, so I just cut my meat consumption down to 3-4 a week ~80-100g.
So if you own a home and it becomes infested with termites, the caller would continue to pay the taxes on the home to ensure the termites have a home and are not killed because he views it as the equivalent of mass murder to put a tarp over the home and get rid of the termites?
Nah they don't care about bugs just care about their delusional moral superiority argument
Ok, look here's some freeby (hopefully intelligent) arguments for any upcoming vegan/vegetarian debaters.
1) Don't try to compare eating animals to slavery or the Holocaust. Blowback effect will happen really quickly (Especially if you don't understand the arguments that well yourself).
2) Emphasize the benefits of such a lifestyle (better health, better environment, etc.)
3) Point out that the current, unsustainable meat industry is being driven by mostly affluent countries and the negative externalities are disproportionately affecting low-income countries (health issues, worsening environment, etc.) can be argued as a form of classicism. (IE Rich people saying, Screw you meat is too precious for me to give up).
4) Moral and philosophical sides is optional but you have to be really well-versed in order for it to be effective and you just have to accept that some people will probably won't listen to that argument anyway.
You vegan?
Most important is to understand the other person's views on meat. This guy came flying in not knowing how Sam felt and just spun out from there.
@@Photo-Jay Nah, probably won't be either. There are some difficulty regarding personal health that I'm just not willing to give up (Mainly calcium and tons of vitamin deficiencies). I just want people to have more honest, thought provoking discussions regarding topics that they truly believe in (and changing minds) rather than another Internet Bloodsport video. (Although, they are massively entertaining).
@@britishrocklovingyank3491 Yeah, having some basic empathy will get you far.
@@PiratesRock LOTS of healthy happy long lived vegans without vitamin or mineral deficiencies (including myself). You also mentioned fiber deficiencies. I don't think you meant that as the only place to get fiber is from plants.
This caller had the opposite effect. His terrible take makes me want to be petty and go get ribs and steak, don't worry the BBQ joint i like uses farm raised animals.
This is Ask Yourself, I recognized his voice right away.
Yup, sorry he's not my favorite vegan UA-camr.
@@veganrican606 He's not mine either.
So the guy who called in has a channel on UA-cam (I’m not gonna promote it)
He posted a video of this claiming victory over Sam and his minions are in the comment section eating it up (in a very pretentiously vegan way)
I’m not posting the link...but if you search “Sam Seder Vegan” you’ll see it
I still don't see the victory they are crowing about. I still don't understand this call.
This is bs. Whoever you think is right, this guy just kept asking the same thing after Sam already answered him. And he kept rewording it acting like Sam doesn’t get the question. Sam perfectly understood it.
Nope. You might want to listen again bud.
@@mathewdavis2427 I did and Rob is correct.
Mathew Davis I did.
Why does this guy feeling its moral to holocaust vegetables, which are as alive as any animal, to use them as food?
Can't tell if this is a troll...
He doesn't want Sam to equivocate on his complete arbitrary equivocation of all animal life as being more valid than life as a whole.
@@NamesChuck. Well yea. But in this instance no. It's a valid critique.
vegetables do not have a nervous system, nor do they have self awareness.
@@bryanseaman4611 The contention of animal ethics doesnt hinge on being "alive" it hinges on being sentient, which plants are not.
Where we draw the line is not go out of way to kill any sentient animals when we have other alternatives available.
To the entire majority report team: please realize what you are going to think when you listen to these arguments in five years’ time. Be on the right side of history and step up!
Jokes on u we're all gonna die before 5 years pass!
You think there will be a consensus on veganism in 5 years when we cant even do easy things like debunk religion? OK buddy.
Justin The Fixer totally see what you’re saying but there is a big difference between debunking religion and debating veganism - when you understand that it’s wrong to kill innocent sentient beings (those words being very important when you consider valid grey areas), there is no debate. It’s simply the least that people can do as a moral baseline. Religious vegans also have a very useful and conscientious perspective.
@@bobbyg1570 sure but the point is that the sentience discussion is still very much up for debate, not to mention the reality that even if people do discover there is some consensus on sentience, its a big assumption to think they will even care. Like I said, 5 years is incredibly lofty, people are dumb and society moves incredibly slow on even the big issues.
@@bobbyg1570 "there is a big difference between debunking religion and debating veganism" I disagree, you're debating morals and ideology, it's very much the same thing. I'm sure you have data that supports your claims, and that can be compelling and interesting, but as a society we can't even do easy things like diagnose pain,. Did you know that? the concept of "pain" has been around for tens of thousands of years, but we cant measure it. So we just can't say factually that veganism is absolutely the correct position. Maybe one day.
I used to love eating meat. Then I got gout and gave up meat for purely selfish reasons. Now I’m basically vegetarian, my moral outlook on consuming meat has changed and I feel what we humans do to animals for food is unethical. The moral of this story: no one’s morals are ever set in stone.
Why vegetarian and not vegan if the practices in the animal products industry are equally as immoral?
@@elliottbooth1969 Then comes the argument of plants. You don't think they feel pain? All living organisms do. Gotta draw the line some where. Killing each other? Bad. Killing plants and animals? Within reason. That's our society today. Want to change it? Lol good luck. I'm down for whatever I'll eat whatever as long as it helps me stay alive but I gotta say... Whatever it is I'm eating is going to be organic matter from a now dead life form...
Or partly still alive organism if we're talking cannibalism here. Never thought I'd chew on a mans neck while he was still breathing but hey, if that's the road we're headed for then god damn. Food b gettin ridiculous! And violent! lol
Way more animals are killed in plant farming than animal farming.