Christopher Hitchens & Tariq Ali Debate 2002 Washington
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- Опубліковано 23 лип 2023
- Christopher Hitchens & Tariq Ali Iraq War Debate on the War on Terror. April 17, 2002 at the ICC Auditorium of Georgetown University, Washington DC. Reposted from a previous (deleted) UA-cam video.
Huge fan of Christopher’s views on religion but he was clearly wrong on the Iraq war and held many absurd neoconservative geopolitical positions. Tariq Ali is a worthy opponent here
A third right, a third wrong and a third wrong.
We need more people like Hitchens. I am a fan too but no slavish adherent to every eloquent argument of his.
Prayers and thoughts for the millions of dead and damaged because they, as always are predominantly the ones with the least interest and least agency in the horrible cold game of geopolitical slaughter and destruction.
❤❤😅😅😅
What was he clearly wrong about?
Like what absurd arguments? No one can answer that question.
Thanks for uploading - I've never forgotten their tense exchange on democracynow.
Wow, I love hitchens but I have to agree with Tariq on most of the points he made.
What points?
@@1984isnotamanualPay attention to the video and you won’t need to ask others.
@@cyrus2546 I did and I actually fact checked too. Tariq Ali literally was pro-Bin Laden and said 9/11 was an attack by the colonized of the American empire. Thats an insane view, as well as an immoral one.
Thank you for sharing. Never heard this before.
*It's been available here on YT for many years.*
Rational thinking comes from a finite mind where there is a reduced capacity to understand and comprehend spiritual truth. Good News but not common knowledge
Mr Josh Timonen helped Richard Dawkins with his website and he also helped him produce documentaries and sell merchandise. Josh Timonen had been Richard Dawkins right hand man for many years and for this loyalty, Richard gave special thanks to Josh in his book “God Delusion” published 2nd Oct 2006, another invention of Richard’s carrying no substance but his opinions, fancies and whims, he further dedicated another book to him called “The Greatest Show on Earth” published on the 3rd Sept 2009. Richard’s interpretation of life.
Mr Josh Timonen has today become a born again believer in Jesus Christ, this must have really hurt Richard Dawkins and his crusade against the God he hates without a legitimate cause. How that his books could not capture the heart of Josh, but when he truly came under the sound of the gospel, he became broken in heart and spirit giving his heart to the Lord. The Bible is the book of life. In the parable of the wheat and tares the servant came to the land owner saying did you not sow good seed upon your land, how is it that there are tares among the wheat. The Master said an enemy hath done this. The servant said shall I pull up the tares from among the wheat. The Master said wisely, let both grow together until harvest, lest you pull up some of the wheat with the tares. Josh Timonen appeared to be a tare but turned out to be wheat. Let us continue to pray for Richard Dawkins, that he will repent, for it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God!
The Bible can seriously damage your health, so if you are an atheist or agnostic, don’t go near it as its truth is eternal in duration when it comes to spiritual truth manifested in the life of Jesus. Josh now believes in loving God and loving his neighbour as himself. What a wonderful change in his life has been wrought since Jesus came into his heart.
The Bible is the book that the Chinese Communist Party fears more than any other book, because it tells the truth. The North Korean Communist Party fear the Bible, the Russian fear the Bible, in-fact all false religions fear the Bible and its content, because there is power in the loving words of Jesus to change lives. No other religion teaches thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all of your heart, mind, soul, spirit and strength and thou shalt love thy neighbour as thy self. Jesus went further, if you want to be disciples of mine, then you must love your enemies, and as we abide in Jesus daily he enables us to love our enemies, something we could not do in the natural, but when the supernatural is allowed to be imposed on the natural then we are changed into new creatures in Christ. This is why Christians are persecuted and imprisoned for distributing Bibles and preaching the gospel of God’s love and wisdom through Jesus Christ. Fear paralyses communist countries and all false man- made religions.
In short people are afraid of the Bible otherwise they would leave Christians alone. Many people read the Bible to find fault with it! A Pharisee named Ga-ma’liel a doctor of the law gave sound advice to the religious hierarchy in Jerusalem saying: Refrain from these men, and let them alone, for if this council or work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God [Acts 5:38-39]. What sound advice but they didn’t take heed. It is still the same today. Satanists in their temples and those involved witchcraft burn Bibles on a regular basis because of its contents. The devil and demons are consumed by great fear because they know that their time is short. The prophetic word will be fulfilled despite all the sufferings of Christians who have taken up the cross and followed Jesus to eternal glory. Kind Regards
@@MattSingh1 the video link didn't always work.
Thanks for this debate. History has shown Tariq was right about the war. Hitchens was great on religion. We need these debates now with Ukraine, US and Russia.
Not even history, it was quite obvious at the time.. he was so horny to shit on islam he couldnt help himself for whatever reason even though he was right to recognize islam as an enemy of humanity
What was Tariq right about?
He was right about the Iraq war. But wrong about Afghanistan. Alqaeda and Osama perpetrated 9/11. We targeted them specifically as Tariq suggested we should. But the Taliban refused to extradite them. So we went in to retrieve them by force and failed due to radical Islamic opposition.
@@BobDingus-bh3pd we failed because the Taliban are lead by religious leaders and it’s very hard to get Afghan to fight against that for some nation state that they don’t really have loyalty too and are just fighting for a paycheck. Also the fact that the Taliban could just jump the border into Pakistan (and helped by the ISI and the Pakistani Taliban). Also a Lesser thing is we burned their only cash cropped Opium, and let all the money from it go to the Taliban. Btw I can send you video of Hitchens saying that Iraq is more likely to be a success than Afghanistan. So he really wasn’t that wrong about it, he knew how backwards and tribal Afghanistan was compared to Iraq.
@@BobDingus-bh3pd and no he wasn’t right about Iraq. He wanted Kerry to withdrawal in 2004 which would have handed the country over to al zarqawi and his jihad group that became Al Queda in Mesopotamia (and other horrible groups). That would have been an even bigger catastrophe than what happened. I could go on. Please tell me what about IRAQ he was right about?
Looking back 21 years later, our mistakes GLARE as we continue to make them.😢
Helping Ukraine, a sovereign nation begging our help as they suffer an explicitly declared genocide, is not a mistake. It isn't a mistake on fiscal/self-interest grounds and it damn sure isn't a mistake on humanitarian grounds. It has nothing whatsoever in common with Iraq or Afghanistan.
@@vigilante8374 Helping 🇺🇦 Ukrain is NOT one of our mistakes. ❤
Hitchens and his arch English cynicism and arrogance.
Did no one any service regarding this illegal and racist war.
Mistakes? No, deliberate
@@vigilante8374”nothing in common with Iraq” sure bro
21 years on and we find ourselves still bogged down with the same s**t with nothing but the actors replaced.
Except Europe is now flooded with the so called Islam aliens. Prove me wrong if them don't loath their own land, regime. No one likes to talk about the fact people are running away from Asia to Europe.
Hitchens has aged incredibly poorly. I'd also recommend tracking down his debate with Michael Parenti, from a few years later when the criminal Iraq war that he supported was already well underway.
How was it criminal?
@@1984isnotamanual Is this a serious question ? over a milllion Iraqi dead for starters
@@2001lextalionis it wasn’t over a million first of all. It was a few hundred thousand at most and we didn’t do most of that killing btw. We’re not responsible for Al Zawari’s massacres and killings.
And second, so you’d have rather the many thousands dying every month of the sanctions and Sadam which was what was happening before we got there then? And according to you we shouldn’t have fought Hitler because thousands of Americans and Germans died in that effort? Or is it only ok to you to save white people from tyranny?
So, try again big boy? What was wrong about removing Saddam?
@1984isnotamanual It's not the few hundred thousands at most but at the least. "Population-based studies produce estimates of the number of Iraq War casualties ranging from 151,000 violent deaths as of June 2006 (per the Iraq Family Health Survey) to 1,033,000 excess deaths (per the 2007 Opinion Research Business (ORB) survey). Other survey-based studies covering different time-spans find 461,000 total deaths (over 60% of them violent) as of June 2011 (per PLOS Medicine 2013), and 655,000 total deaths (over 90% of them violent) as of June 2006 (per the 2006 Lancet study). Body counts counted at least 110,600 violent deaths as of April 2009 (Associated Press)." But ofcourse a hitchens supporter is gonna downplay the death toll of the Iraq war.
@@Arjmmno im not downplaying anything. Alot of those numbers arw garbage. Im curious, if all you care about is the number of dead, we shouldnt have fought Hitler in WW2 because millions of germans and others died?
As someone who loves Christopher Hitchens, it feels masochistic to listen to his debates about Iraq and Afghanistan. I agree with so many of his points and opinions in this audio and elsewhere, but his “the ends justify the means” arguments and transparent, weak appeals to emotion remind me that you can’t accept the assertions of your heroes uncritically.
Frankly, this debate is the poorest argument I’ve ever heard out of Hitch. It’s so disappointing. He literally suggests that a lack of outrage from people in the distant corners of the world is somehow evidence that the U.S. was obligated to declare state-sanctioned “war” against Afghanistan and Iraq. There are plenty of reasonable arguments that could have been made, but he chose the most feeble ones of the lot.
It’s difficult to hear. I still love him, though.
When did he say lack of outrage?
About the only thing I disagreed with Hitch on Tariq is correct on this completely!!!
"Completely" is a very strong word. Iraq was an extremely stupid idea. I said so at the time and I'll say it again now. Agreeing with that much is easy.
But Ali is a highly sinister individual. If you don't believe me, you've only to read what he's written about Ukraine and Kosovo. He is emphatically against America preventing genocides even when an entire nation is on its knees begging us for help.
Should have, for example left his son and likely successor to carry on kidnapping and raping schoolgirls.
@@vigilante8374
I don’t recall entire nations being on their knees begging for help?
I do however remember some 80 democracy’s being overthrown by America with Wests backing for financial gain??
I miss Hitchens and have always enjoyed his wit and commentary. I must say I think he met his match in Mr Ali. I'd lean Ali 70-30 if this was a boxing natch.
What did Ali say that was so convincing to you?
How history has proven Hitchens’ depth and understanding of the next clash of civilizations, a visionary.
Lol
Yea he was right about that, also he was right about Iraq being the country that was the more important one to rescue from collapse and islamic jihadism and he even said, in 07 or something, that its more likely we will have a stable Iraq and a chaotic Afghanistan
Hitchens was really badly beaten here. TBH if this was a boxing match then Hitchen's corner would have thrown in the white towel. Hitchen's makes too many mistakes and one that keeps on appearing is Hitch thinks Tariq Ali is Muslim. He is not. He is an Aetheist
Equate the actually existing wars with the ideal inside your head, the better to swap in the ideal inside your head whenever someone launches a knockdown critique of the actually existing wars.
Note the sophistry behind Hitch’s eloquent rhetoric.
The first questioner was almost prophetic
Tariq Ali is my hero in this, Christopher is a establishmentarian
Gross. Go see what he's saying nowadays about Ukraine, or what he said about Serbia and Kosovo. The man is a straight-up apologist for genocide and doesn't want us to help even when 85%+ of a country is begging for our help to literally save their children from being kidnapped and murdered.
You can hold the opinion that Iraq was a stupid idea and still not give into the rabid, absurdist anti-American tripe that Ali is selling.
You clearly know nothing about Christopher
@@prashants5071Of course he is. He is not an outlier, hitchens is popular because he serves up views and opinions that the masses eat up. Religious groups, foreigners are nice easy targets for bigots if you have enough charisma
@@aarononeill3 No one in any establishment supports atheism. Every idiot who has political ambition needs to cling to some stupid bs religion. Was especially true in his time. he was leftist and he went against his own political group when they showed no spine during the Salman Rushdie fatwa. He just spoke truth as he saw it. That is why he is hated by all, except for just a few who arent biased towards one side, and taught themselves to think for themselves. He is the farthest thing from establishment man that you can get. Just because he supported the war in Iraq, you are conditioned by your echo chambers to believe that he was an establishment man.
On a more interesting note, is "Foreigners" one whole homogenous group in your view. Since you categorize us with 'religious groups', i must ask, do you think that we all have a similar belief system, the way religious have in the context of their respective Gods? I saw memes that a lot Americans thought very less of people outside their country, but this is my first firsthand experience with this level of ignorance and narcissism. Your brain must be very agile because of the kind of mental gymnastics you have to do on a regular basis to reconcile reality with this sort of thought pattern. It is really refreshing to me to have come across someone so stupid as you. Reminds me of the statement Hitchens made about the religious, "you never know what they will say next". This is my first experience with idiocy so profound and so far removed from reason that seems to dictate daily conversations about the world. No wonder your country is a political dumpster fire.
FYI: over the past year Tariq Ali has been busy whining about how it's not fair to the poor Ukrainians that we're helping them defend themselves and their children from overt genocide, that it's just needless bloodshed (and nevermind the fact that 85%+ want to keep fighting Russia.) I checked and he did the exact same thing when Serbia was conducting its own genocide in Kosovo, far worse in print than he said here.
My point is that to the extent Ali was "right" about Iraq (and this is a debatable extent), he was only right for all the wrong reasons. To the extent that Hitchens was wrong about Iraq, he was at least wrong for all the right reasons. Christopher's main sin was to think too highly of the cohesion of Iraqi civil society, and to overrate the USA's ability to go off nation-building. Where's Ali's sin is that nothing he says is ever rooted in any logic or sentiment other than "fuck America".
nice argument
You'll find in time he is right on Ukraine too. Only those that refuse to properly investigate the war think Ukraine's regime is innocent or that this is not a US proxy war that will only end when truth is told and Kiev negotiates.
@@finbarmarkey Of course it's a proxy war. This is a good thing. Proxy wars vs. the USSR are what led to its breakup. Proxy wars are the reason why South Korea is a vibrant, incredibly important nation while North Korea is a hell on Earth. Useful idiots (a phrase and concept Russians invented) have seen one or two Vietnam movies and have a laughable, kindergarten level understanding of what actually happened and what the scoreboard actually reads. Our proxy war disasters weren't nearly as bad as portrayed. And our massive, MASSIVE proxy war victories (for the countries themselvse as well as the world) are barely mentioned at all.
I dont think he says 'fuck america' he says 'fuck americas fucking foreign policy blunders'
Just accept that your hero Chris Hitchens is shown up in this debate as not exactly the brilliant intellectual you thought he was.
Hitchens is brilliant here abour Islam. Tariq points to the American war machine and hypocrisy therein. They are both correct.
Hitchens is the GOAT.
He's fooled about 9/11 buildings collapse and attack
@@davidwelch5186 Bad bot.
He did nothing but BAA BAAA BAAA in this case
You mean a goat, cos he was "meh" in this
Hitches is fantastic when he speaks about religion - ALL religions. He is clearly out of his element in geopolitics. I wonder what he’d have to say about the present day situation.
Score: Tariq Ali 4/5 Christopher Hitchens 2/5.
Every other day I wonder what Hitchens would think about Christian nationalism and fundamentalism in here in America, but also George Carlin and Bill Hicks. I don’t think they would believe it.
@@Maintainingabadtrip - He would probably exaggerate the "threat" of a fringe of the Christian/Catholic Church. "Christian Nationalism" is a buzzword to fearmonger the Left against the Right. Cheap, divisive propaganda. It is good to not be in Denial of all bad actors, Christian and Atheist, but one must strive to put things into proper proportion. Hitchens wasn't always good at that, though he was an effective and necessary voice in serious discussions.
@@machtnichtsseimann Christian Nationalism may used as a buzzword but you’ve heard of Silver Shirts and such groups haven’t you? Evangelicals, is that a buzzword? The ideologies of Christians is broad? I believe there are common and popular beliefs; that’s what I’m referencing. The Marjorie Taylor Greene’s. Turning Point USA. Qanon.
Hitchens isn't even that great on religion, if you read what he's saying without the wit and charisma of his delivery you're left with not much of anything worth using to defend atheism. Might be unpopular opinion but not impressed with Hitchens, charm and charisma aplenty, smoke and mirrors for me.
It's interesting to hear these debate with the wisdom of hindsight.
Hitchen morphed into a worshipper of the US state in his later day's.
What's Hitchen's argument?
There's a growing fundamentalistic islamic (and/or religious) that can't be understood?
We should never support religious forces?
-History proved him wrong, to say the least (Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Somalia).
The UK and the US have always preferred the religious reactionary forces before secular nationalism (think the Gulf States).
Today It's Ukraine (speaking of neo-nazis) - not a perfect analogue but there's similarities.
Let me make a prediction- Ukraine will go down the toilet (written in sep 2023), US will throw them under the bus and pretend it never happened.
Propaganda and worshipping the state is still in full bloom.
Hitchens made some great points about religion. Big deal though. It does not take much to point out the shortcomings of cults and outside of that arena Hitchens was an insufferably British smug dolt.
Blah blah blah