Good work! I'm jealous of your testing site. I think that the concept is reasonable, and your conjectures regarding it too. If this weapon had caught on and been popular for a while, it seems likely that some mention of it would have survived. If armies fought one way that worked, it would be difficult to get them to risk a major change. These cannot be used by troops in dense formations as a plumbatum can, and in more open formation a slinger can carry far more ammunition and much cheaper ammunition, and be effective at long range. This is why I think that this weapon would not have caught on. It isn't as good as a bow for hunting, and in war, if other weapons fill the same battlefield role as well or better, they will remain. I'll look out for more of your work. A cheap Go-Pro-like knock-off can be got for £30 or so and would add a lot if placed at the target end of these tests. I'd recommend getting a radio mic for better sound.
Thank you sir! These are good points, and have thought along similar lines. It is indeed a device that sits a little awkwardly between javelins, bows, and slings. I believe that if it were to be deployed, it could be given to slingers to train with, to replace the heavy stones (~350-450g) that were used against heavy infantry. The slingers will already be deployed in such a way that they have room to use them, and while the darts are a bit more expensive, the reduced weight, greater range, and increased terminal effect that a 200g dart could provide over a heavy stone, could perhaps give it a worthwhile place in the army. Thank you also for the practical suggestions!
@@gudgengrebeidk about that if the horses are used to distractions, and getting hit and have armor (which I figured they would since they are war horses) it wouldn’t do much if it’s not a well placed shot.
That sound when the one hits the target is so gratifying! I was a baseball pitcher, and then taught kids to pitch. There are a couple of techniques that could be worth trying. You're throwing technique is overall excellent, and had you grown up in the U.S. I think you would make a hell of a good pitcher. One thing to try is to bring your left arm up instead of letting it go immediately to the side, use your elbow as a quick aiming point right when you are ready to release. The aiming elbow comes up with the lower arm bent in, then as you release, the left arm straightens out, and then folds into your body. The other thing I always taught along with the elbow aim is to land your left foot straight forward and also in the direction of the target. It's pretty amazing how well these little things help. That being said, you are awesome, and I'm jealous of how well you do all of this. I love it!!
We (slinging community) have long had the conversation that we need to get someone who really understands and can execute good throwing fundamentals to pick up a sling. So the question is...have you tried slinging yet?
@@IronGoober I admire the slinging community, I think that it's an important field of study considering how little we actually know about a topic like hoplite warfare. It's really cool to see people bringing it to life again. That being said, no I haven't tried slinging, but I would love to. I'm an ancient coin conservator now, and my pitching days are behind me, but I would give slinging a try any day! There are coins that depict slingers on them, probably the best depictions are silver stater's of Aspendos in Pamphylia. They date to around the 3rd-2nd century BC, and show wrestlers grappling on one side and a slinger on the other. If you are not already familiar with them, look it up. I've owned a few over the years, they are relatively affordable.
I just found this channel and this was my first viewing of one of his video uploads. I'm skimming some of the comments, trying to find clues as to the likely filming location that he used for the upload (to see how far away it is from the area of the world where I am located), when I stumble upon these comments. My 2 cents (bc I'm qualified such that my feedback should be considered): The content-creator responsible for this channel should ABSOLUTELY reach out to Mr. Former Pitching Instructor turned Coin Conservationalist, in order to ask him to provide some freshly-filmed demonstration footage of the various suggestions that he made, for the purposes of evaluating his personal knowledge and ability on the subject of effectively pitching/throwing, and perhaps use this evaluation to determine whether he should appear in some capacity as a guest on the channel - either remotely, or in person (please opt to do this in person - provided that my intuition proves correct about the elevated likelihood of his being a potentially excellent choice as a special guest on your channel - as this would prove to be an exponentially better option, from the audience's perspective). PS: I'm located within the States - Arizona, to be precise.... Prescott, to be specific. 😜
Many thanks. As kids we used to make, what we called, ‘throwing arrows’. These were basically home made arrows, with fletchings and a weighted point, which were launched with a piece of string, knotted at one end. The string was wrapped around the arrow, just forward of the fletching, looped around the knot and pulled out to the point of the arrow and held with it. The arrow was then launched/thrown by releasing the point of the arrow but still holding onto the string. As kids we could easily throw these arrows 100 yards or more and were very accurate with practice.
that was a very interesting take on the plumbata. And i very much enjoyed every second of it. while we cannot be sure if it existed or not (in this design or similar ones) I would argue that even if this invention existed it would have not been a prevalent sight on the battlefield but rather limited. The reason: it would have been another logistical branch to take care of for a weapon that is essentialy (in my eyes) very limited for inter-unit use. the plumbata was used because it was small enough to be carried in large numbers, and can be thrown out from a tight formation. and the slingers can just throw thing that are much cheaper and faster to procure i.e. rocks, lead, clay etc. And archers have their bow, that gives them very good accuracy and range (the same goes for the manuballista). and the javelin throwers have their javelin, that would have more stopping power (especially when used with an amentum) not only in transferred energy but also because of its weight to give the enemy a hard time using their shields. But adding to your argument, that the sling-plumbata would be used complementary, I would dare to say, that all these weapon (-systems) mentioned above are already complementing themselves in a combined-arms-strategy. so opening another logistical branch for something that is more expensive than sling-ammo, less accuarte than a bow, has less stopping power than a javelin, and cannot be used within tight formations; a weapon than can do everything but nothing really better as the above mentioned weapons, would have probably not been worth it logistically, especially for the waining economy of the late roman empire of the 4th and 5th century. but that are just my thoughts on it. Again. really nice video and beautiful design none the less!
Thanks for sharing your thoughts! Some good points there. In my tests, these darts have a bit more kinetic energy than a 1kg javelin, but less momentum. Because of the higher speed, they would be more likely penetrate through a shield, but with less overall energy transfer. The real benefit I see of a javelin is how you can throw it from a tight space and easily encumber a shield, with just the one. I'm not sure whether these darts would be more useful light or heavy. Lighter makes it closer to an arrow, heavier makes it closer to a javelin. One area I could see these darts being used, is freeing up archers being used against formations. They could then be used in a role that really takes advantage of their superior accuracy.
@Archaic-Arms I would use it more for skirmishing if I was a commander It blowing a hole through a shield. Would make it quite vicious. However, it would greatly compliment javelins. And would be great in densely packed formations. Due to its mild accuracy
@Archaic-Arms I think they would be best as secondary weapons for javelinmen. You can have a quiver of them, easily increaseing the number of missiles a javelinman can carry to battle.
This is great! As kids we used a split stick and forced a stone in between the strakes to throw it a very great distance. The stick being about 40 to 50 centimeters long. To grade it up for the plumbata I would use a longer stave of up to 1,5 meter with a hook on the one end for the loop of your plumbata. Using both hands in a flip motion should lob it a long distance indeed.
It is true, that after you make the first one you don't stop, I have 7, and that's not counting the ones I took apart after trying them out and not liking them.
There is definitely historic reference to plumbata being “slung”- I have always assumed it was done with a specialized sling, pathfinder style. This make’s SIGNIFICANTLY more sense and I agree that it is likely they would have tried this. To think this was your first time using it and you got that kind of energy, range and grouping! Professional Roman sappers would absolutely be doing this.
@@thereisa6inthename that’s how a pathfinder sling works! But it takes time to set up and you have to be careful to get it right. In Caracalla’s Parthian campaign the Romans had a unique way of destroying Parthian cavalry- they arrayed sappers in a loose formation where they were weak to charges by horse. They created an immediate threat by discharging their missiles then broke ranks and fled before oncoming cavalry charges. As they did so they dropped caltrops which pierced the horse’s hooves. Mind you I think I got that from Gibbons but I always had trouble picturing what missile weapon they could have used under such pressure that posed such an immediate threat to armored cavalry but was cheap enough in material and training to risk losing on such a maneuver.
What's the reference to the plumbata being 'slung'? I know the (very limited) sources that describe plumbatae (Vegetius, De rebus bellicis, Strategicon) and none refer to such a throwing method.
Speaking of TTRPGs, way back in the day the first three editions of D&D had wizards being proficient in a limited number of weapons which included "darts". As historically ignorant kids we thought they meant modern darts and didn't understand how that could be a valid weapon. What they were referring to of course were plumbata.
Going through all your videos currently and absolutely loving your channel. Seriously amazing work on your research, craftsmanship, and presenting the information in a way that is entertaining and educational. Thank you!
In America, we had something like this back in the early 1970s. It was called "Lawn Darts." It was similar to horseshoes, but you played until only one was left standing. lol Great video. Interesting concept.
Absolutely golden content. I love the modern world. Now people like me who are very interested in ancient warfare but without the time and practice and expertise required to go and pick up a sharp stick and whirl it above my head without stabbing myself can have a reasonable idea of what these devices are capable of. More options for historians beyond reading writing and speculating is incredibly valuable. Keep up the good work!
Wow! The amount of time, effort, and thought put into this is truly impressive. It looks like most of my thoughts have already been stated in the comments. I really enjoyed the experiment, and the format in which it was conducted. Perhaps not as practical as an ancient battlefield weapon, however with all of the SHTF and bug out content out there, I could definitely see modern preppers purchasing or making this sort of thing. I really enjoy this kind of content, and how thorough you are about it. I look forward to more content. Well done indeed!
I like how you think about this period in our history. I'm quite sure that there were weapons and arms that were invented that we'll simply never know about... Rare one offs, things too brutal even for then, perhaps?! Like the diving suits and other artifact's from some of the old mouldy codices. Great content and brilliant expo of a another deadly weapon. ❤
I'm not even sure how I found this video. I only know I am grateful that I did. And even more grateful for you making it. This was Badass!! I am now a subscribed member. Again,Thank you Mate.
I find the idea of a long range plumbata that combines the momentum and penetrating power of a javelin with the range of a bow very fascinating. I do wonder if a lighter, longer and more flexible shaft could be used to good effect, and what the limit is. There is likely a limit to the length in terms of how high it could be thrown (for range). Additionally with the loop at the end and the sling-like spin before the throw, the packing of the throwers is necessarily not as dense as it would be with archers (fewer people can fit in an area, otherwise they hit each other). That is one interesting aspect and consideration that also follows along with how effective a group of slingers would be. Only so many can fit within a given area and fire at once. I would love to see future penetration tests against hard shields and to see further assessment on how this "new" plumbata could have harried an enemy by becoming embedded in their shields. Awesome stuff as always.
I hadn't ever heard of a weapon like this, but it's cool seeing it actually being used and knowing how good he is with a sling gives a lot of insight into just how difficult these projectiles were to use with any accuracy.
It just requires a little more practice to adjust the to the loop style of release. Even despite that, the second group I got was about ~1m at 40m, which considering is the first day of throwing for accuracy, is quite decent.
I was just watching a archeology channel and they unearthed some slinger ammunition. I was completely amazed, searched for Roman Slingers and found your awesome channel! Thanks for keeping this amazing piece of history alive. Totally fascinating!
The mass and speed of these could easily cause mayhem on the enemy. Great video! I would try wooden fins or any other kind of material that is stiff, good luck on attaching them on the shaft though.
Awesome. The fact that with the first proof of concept you managed to outperform (in energy and momentum) a very skilled archer like Joe Gibbs who shot with a 160 lbs bow (close to the upper limit that a person may pull) is testament to the viability of this concept. It's perfectly possible that the plumbata is a descendant of a hunting version of the kestros, since the kestros and the plumbata both appeared in the western Balkans (the non-Greek word kestros points to an origin outside of Greece/Macedonia proper). So the possibility of launching it with rotation would be integral to the use of such a weapon. IMHO the plumbata was indeed used with various throwing methods and this would have been one of them. The other would have been with an amentum and a third one would be achieved by resting the rear end of the lead weight in the "fork" between forefinger and middle finger to launch the plumbata javelin-style for better accuracy at short ranges. As for your variant I'd suggest larger and stiffer vanes/fletchings (analogous to historical hide/parchment and paper/cloth stiffened with glue) to reduce rotation and fishtailing after launch. The close proximity of the vanes to the axis of rotation means that they won't add too much drag to the initial wind-up. I'd also suggest making a variant with a ring-shaped weight. The shaft passes through the hole of the ring thus the ring-weight will be free to run up and down the shaft but won't flying off it as it will be hemmed in by the barbs of the dart-head on top of the shaft and the stiff vanes on the bottom of the shaft. When you rotate the dart the ring-weight will rise all the way to the barbs due to centrifugal force and stay close to that point until the landing and impact. When the dart penetrates the ring-weight will be pushed back improving the penetration in hard targets like a shield or armor.
@@ahmedshaharyarejaz9886 Instead of a ring a length of pipe would do Is lead piping still sold? I believe not so, to keep things simple and safe, I think that galvanized steel pipe or copper pipe can be used instead of a lead weight. This pipe will fit loosely around the shaft and be kept in place by means of wooden wedges keeping it from moving during launch. On impact these wedges will be broken or dislocated and the pipe will be pushed back to allow for deeper penetration.
@ΕρνέστοςΣμίθ well one could always use pipes of similiar weight. Probably means a longer length of pipe sections will be needed. In a worst-case scenario, it might be possible to commission a few custom lead weights.
Good prep on the introduction to the weapon and I really liked the fact you included all the target practice in period appropriate dress no less! It's amazing how quickly it aligns in flight, saw that in the slo mo. Great work on explaining the science behind this.
Also the various plumbata. The forces being spoken of should be placing it in the rough range for injury as an arrow would. With less equipment needed and less training being required... Various weights, as well, would be interesting to see tested.
gel is for weapons that shoot not for those that cut. I think you do not get the point of those gels. Puncture channel of cutting weapons is very clear.
@@KA-jm2cz What? No it's really not clear how far it would penetrate into a human body and how much damage you might expect it to do. Also, this is not a sword. Slings do not cut, they shoot... the projectiles act a lot more like bullets than any kind of cutting weapon. I haven't seen anyone use a baelic sling against ballistic gel, and although it's easy to imagine that it must be quite lethal, it's difficult to judge just how dangerous slings were without ballistic gel.
The problem with plumbata is that it is so easy to use that when used from a long distance it can easily be collected and thrown back at you by unskilled users from smaller distance, when it is more accurate and thus - dangerous. Also plumbata were used in tight formations by a soldiers using shields. This way of throwing would be impossible to deploy on a battlefield.
This right here. The point of long range missile weapons is to kill and discourage movment of troops long before melee, not arm them before melee. Bows, slings etc require a second tool to shoot arrows or sling stones back which most infantry will not have on them. That's why long range missile weapons are usually not used against other missile weapon troops but rather infantry or cavalry. Short range missile weapons are to kill, distract and break up formations that are in the final charge/contact before melee where they won't be able to pick them up and throw them back because you'll be on them shortly after. The in between zone where you're not yet in melee and the enemy has options is not where you want this type of weapon as they can be used by anyone(even without a sling)..........so you'll be arming the enemy. At least if you stick to conventional bows and slings in the in between range, they won't be able to fire the weapons back at you so easily.
Exactly. These plumbatae would have to have some kind of protection similar to what Tod from Tod's Workshop had recently done - once they hit a target or some other obstacle, the plumbatae were no longer suitable for further use without repairing them, which was important on the battlefield. BTW. Wreszcie na YT pojawił się ktoś z porządnym nazwiskiem ;)
I think that like the Roman Legion's pilum, the leaded weight combined with the impact of a hit, on a human or their armor, the barbed point and the weight would snap off. They didn't happen here, but he was also using modern materials like the carbon fiber points. I agree with the first reply in that this was to break up formations and separate a larger group into a smaller group and thus as Sun Tzu said, 'Divide and Conquer'. He does also answer the question of it being thrown back. He agreed with what I said about the plumbing and that the shift woukd be made thin enough to snap off. Nearly all militaries had some sort of throwing weapon that was used to be a formation breaker. The Frank's would hurl an axe with no handle that was designed to roll along the ground and impact at ankle or knee height, the Chinese used war hammers that were large metal balls attached with chain, they also used handfuls of darts that were sharp on both ends so that if you missed ,they buried in the ground deep enough to just expose the top point a d puncture a foot or hoof, the Visigoths would hurl flaming balls of pitch that were designed to stick onto the target and ignite it, plus they hurled chunks of obsidian which when shattered against a shield, sent razor sharp dust chunks flyng everywhere.
I'm enjoying these - your presentation is good and a bit of personality and sense of humour coming through as well but not at the expense of the content - good job 👍🏻
Lord only knows what the youtube algorithm thinks of me! 20-odd minutes ago I was watching a video about some dude's LaTeX configuration in Emacs, now I want to drink wine and make oversized darts to harass and harangue my Gaulish adversaries.
I don't know if this was in response to Tod's Workshop and his recent experiments? But if not, may I suggest you make it so. Your channel would benefit from catching the attention of his audience but more importantly I think he would be fascinated by what you've done and take in on-board. I think there are some things he would not alter: We have surviving heads of historical plumbata so we know the diameter of the wooden shaft. But I think there's plenty of room to experiemnt with the length of the shaft and the number and size of the fletchings and indeed the idea of "slinging" them. I realise you are speculating on something different than the hisrtorical examples we have, but this is useful nonetheless!
@@Bristan Yes he did, in his last video on the plumbata he said and i quote: "We have the head and the weight from archeology , we dont have any of the shaft or the fletchings, so here on end (points from end of the head to the fletchings) we dont know what wa going on, this is just, you know, my work"
Brilliant video. Small comments about the fletching. Changing the design with four feathers and making them larger would certainly equate to better stabilization for conserving short-term energy loss, but would also create more drag than the current design during the stabilized flight stage (depending on how big they were). So it would be interesting to see what the compromise point could be with the fletching sizes to leverage on for the most efficient outcome. Again great vid and amazing proof of concept.
Have you concidered using a sling stick yet? Those pieces of wood that were used to improve throwing spears ever since the late stone age. It would keep the arrow much more stabil than swinging it around, and it may even provide more acceleration and easier aiming.
@@cheeserdane Atlatl, right. I think its well possible that the Romans used them, too. But since its just a piece of wood, it may have decayed just as the shafts of the Plumbata did. Its known to nearly double the range of a spear, so why not those too?
I'm thinking something by the same principle as those tennisball-throwers you can get at the pet store. It's just an extension of your arm really, but they make it easy to throw a ball much further and with less effort. (Because retrievers demand retrieving) Instead of a cup to hold a tennis ball, there could be a fork that holds the shaft of the plumbata right behind the lead weight.
People assume plumbata would be stopped by a mail shirt. No it won't. The heads are made like a thin harpoon, out of soft iron. It would enter the rings by bending itself, and penetrate the body to the lead, but will get stuck when trying to pull out, ripping the flesh it penetrated.
This is great concept. I really wonder sometimes how many variations of darts and javelins there have been in the past. Since much of these variations in terms of shaft length, fletching, launch/release mechanisms are made of organic materials, there would be very little archeological evidence of these variations. And classical period historians do refer to this broad category of weapons as "darts" so for all we know any of these variations could have actually been used in the past. Given that our awareness of these darts really only come from written sources, the fact that there were several such variations (Plumbata, Kestros, Swiss/Dutch/Yorkshire Arrows, War darts, ) mentioned should be telling.
I’ve heard some theories that a plumbata were thrown using slings. There’s a modified version of balearic slings that can be wrapped around the shaft of the plumbata and can be used to throw it a longer distance. I think that would be an interesting experiment to try.
Interesting weapon; like the sling, it requires space to be properly manipulated while a bow allows more stealth. Thank you for the informative video and the demonstrations !
That's AMAZING. Incredible work! Lindy recommended a radio mic, but look for a well reviewed lav mic under $40, easy to plug in to a phone (make sure you get one with the right connection) and will give professional enough sounding audio for much cheaper if you don't want the financial stress. Also great for outdoor work as it will eliminate the authentic power tool noises :p
I think you proved several concepts nicely, and the variations in darts and launch methods are almost limitless. With the range demonstrated I could easily imagine several lines launching waves of these as the close quarters troops moved in or several other scenarios. I'm sure a couple well placed nicks on the shaft at the right spot would let the shafts snap off on impact so they would get fired back at you
You are really on to something with your recent output, keep the content coming and you’ll be hitting 100k+ subscribers in no time! UA-cam is at it’s best with well made, very niche stuff like this
What if you made the finger loop a bit longer to get some added leverage? For some reason I'm also curious to see what would happen if it was thrown in a figure 8 type fashion. Good video.
I was thinking the same thing a longer loop say 5 or 6 inches would increase range and accuracy a leather shoe lace would be ideal.would love to see it with the longer loop keep up the good work 👍and could be thrown over arm like a cricket player as well as under arm
Throwing it is like using a baitcaster type fishing reel. It requires release of the line/plumbata well before when it seems it should be. Once you get the hang of it, remarkable accuracy. What a great weapon! Have you tried these with a nice strong atlatl?
This was a great video! Fun to watch, interesting to listen to. The only thing I could come up with as a reason not to utilize the plumbata on a battlefield is that it takes too much space to throw. To sling a three feet long plumbata, I would assume it would take about six feet of area between each slinger. This would make the use of a 3 feet plumbata next to impossible on crowded battlefields. This is probably why no weapon utilizing a swinging motion has been widely preferred in actual battles. So, I question is, is it possible to sling a plumbata efficiently using a more vertical swing?
That's why I lean towards the idea that slingers could carry a bundle of these into battle. They'd be already deployed with enough room to use them. I've tried overhand throws, but it's not as easy with a bundle of darts in the off-hand.
@@Archaic-Arms Thank you for the reply and the insight into my question. I don't want to ask too much but I'd really enjoy watching a sequel to this video. Thanks again!
My thoughts: 1) First thing after all the testing I thought of slinging a smaller plumbata before you mentioned the Kestros. 2) Try doing away with the loop and go for a small toggle which might allow for more precise release. The loop I believe is the reason your shots initially went left. 3) Why does it need to be a solid shaft? What if sections were attached by a thin rope with wider fletchings. It could be spun up easier like a sling and the fletching adds the drag to stabilise the flight and straighten out the whole thing. 4) Try a plumbata style head with the weight closer to the head but rather than a shaft and fletching, use long wide ribbon. This ought to create the stabilising drag but also be swung about in the sling fashion you're used to. 5) Add a small notch to the front of the shaft and throw with a lever like an atlatl or something flexible and long planted into the ground and weighed down at the base. Think of bending your fingers back with a long fingernail to flick something off. A crude catapult. I quite liked the video, it also filled me with a tonne of ideas so apologies for throwing them all at you.
Like archery or even bowling, your left foot is what you adjust and not your throw or aim. It is also important to let your left foot pivot slightly during the throw, for more centrifugal power, and to keep your left knee and ankle from twisting and injuring your joints. Very interesting study. Thanks.
fantastic video. i love that you have expanded beyond just the Balearic sling. no complaints about those vids btw, they’re great too, but expanding and testing adds a lot to the Archaic Arms name beyond just the sling
I wonder about a knot rather than a loop for the release. Most slings I have seen use a knot and I wonder if it would make this more sling-like and thus not needing so much re-learning. I suppose you could put a small ball at the end of the shaft too but I think that would be less sling-like. Very cool stuff!
This is great! I literally made a similar weapon for a Dark Sun D&D campaign that had Last Oasis elements with those giant base walkers. People could throw these darts at enemy sails, put barbs on them to bleed enemies on grazing hits, clay jars of fire instead of the typical weight that could ignite oils or cloth. You did a great job actually using it and analyzing it. I think the Romans not adopting and perfecting the tech may come down to the reverence of the pilum and how it works in conjecture with shield bearing tactics. Or perhaps more specifically, the type of shield utilized? A large square shield like that would be better used as a passive. All of that needing the integration and knowledge to perfect it, perhaps they thought it not worth the time when the two were compared, or was something easily looked over for their mindset at the time? Either way, i could 100% see this as a thing that existed.
This reminds me of a dart a good friend of mine made 7yrs ago. He made a dart out of a 2ft long piece straight wood, the diameter of which was 3 inch thick. He left the base of the wood around 4 inch an tapered down the rest to a point an drilled a hole thru an attached a strong cord loop. He used Fletching 2inch under this, it looked like a dart apart from the fact the tip was the bulb and had a 6 inch blade attached. The slinging method was cord passed thru the loop. When I asked why he made it, he saz it was for elderly gentleman. The gentleman in his youth spent his youth summers with travelling romany gypsies, an the dart was made by one the leaders. Teaching the young lads part the ancient traditions, apparently they was used by warring gypsy groups in ancient times
196 yds distance is no small feat. Multiply your dart by 300-500(?) throwers and you would be raining hell down on an enemy. I know I wouldn't want to be on the receiving side! Good job!
Without any practical experience using a balearic sling or a plumbata, I'm curious about the choice to use a loop on the end. I know that a loop gives the sling a firm anchor point, and the loosing of the missile is actuated by releasing the other end of the sling. But on an elongated plumbata such as this, the loop is attached to the projectile itself. It seems that upon release, any snagging of the loop on the finger would affect the flight path of the plumbata, impacting speed, distance, accuracy... For an analogous example, "snatching" at a bowstring upon release can cause the arrow to fishtail and fly poorly. Perhaps a version with a simple knot at the end of a short cord could be interesting to test? Love the video! Super interesting content, keep it up!
Slinger, "Ooh, way to the left with that one!" One of the hundred men standing in rank with the target, "AAAAAAAAAGH!" Six shots in the experiment, and "thwack!" Ringing the bell at the end of the video gave me a good giggle.
Great tests! Greetings from a slinger. I wonder whether it would be beneficial to get rid of the shaft,and just have a piece of string attached to the lead,and "arrowhead". Or maybe just a tiny wooden peg cast in the lead,and a string tied to the wooden peg. Not sure,if it would have better range,as the rope would flop around in the wind,and most definitely would be enough to stabilize the head point first. It would be easier to carry them,but probably a bit slower to deploy.
What a great channel. Just watched with my 10 year old son. It would be very interesting so see the effect of modified flights/fletchings. Increasing the size and number could stabilise the dart but might also increase drag.
what would happen if you shortened the haft and lengthened the strap? if you had a small ring on the base could you loop leather around the ring in the base of the plumbata so that when you release it you keep the loop of leather like a sling? would that cause too much friction? if not it would allow for adjustable energies depending on available space and would make them much harder to throw back.
That was interesting! Never heard of, or noticed these, but as kids used to make something similar. A 3' bamboo cane, a cornflake packet flight at the fat end, and a lump of clay for the weight. We threw them more like a stick grenade!
Very interesting, I think with the larger flights and experimentation with the projectile length and varing the weight could result in a very effective weapon. It is already a very effective weapon
As for them throwing it back, make the loop so small as to require a launcher -- a small strip of leather that stayed with the thrower. Soon enough the enemy would adapt, but with a little ingenuity your team could stay ahead of them. You don't have to make immediate re-use impossible, just make launching it more time consuming than it is for you because of that "one secret trick".
For speed shooting, couldn’t you make a little thing to go over the index finger with a stud of some type between the knuckles on the side of the finger so you could just hook your loop, pinch your thumb and release by unpinching?
There are certainly a lot of options for a release assist. At very least, the next time I use them I will have a finger protector to increase comfort, and thus accuracy.
These types weapons were used in sustained ways by using geographic advantages. When you have the high ground you have extended range and can hold off equal range weapons. Sometimes slings can out range war bows. That’s why the lay of the land is more important than the weapons.
Great video, I think the issue is the long arrow, this gives you too much rotational force for accuracy. Could you try a very short, top heavy bolt with a string(s) /band attached? You could use your regular sling shot throw and just fully release the string (it can fly with the arrow and will stabilize the flight like the wings). I guess would be best of two worlds.
Just my armchair slinger thought: given how throwing stick improved range of spears, it would be reasonably easy to design an eighteen inch stick with a leather loop on one end to go around wrist, the other end would have a small ivory peg to hold the loop on the plumbata and the real trick is to attach a long trigger mechanism hinged somewhere near the middle of the throwing stick. At desired moment of release a finger or thumb would squeeze the long trigger and the other end of the trigger would shove the plumbata loop off the small peg. Given the length of the throwing stick the shorter plumbata you started with might be a good answer. The long trigger might be fashioned from bronze and inset into a channel in the throwing stick.
What if you used this with a staff, or a staff sling? One with a double action tip, with one side smooth, and the other concaved, for two separate release points?
That's really nice. First time coming across your channel. I don't throw darts nearly enough to say I know what I am doing and I have the same problem with them going of to the left. I feel that's because I don't throw them from center of my vision. I throw them from my right. I compensate by aiming to the lower right side of the target. And I hit pretty close to bull's eye, and often in the eye. But that's only after few tries to test the distance.
great job!!! A dart with a hazelnut shaft and a "Flu flu" fletching would be interesting. This Plumbata version would still be significantly more expensive than a sling bullet because it requires more work, I have agree with Lindybeige here. However, one must also consider from historical context that the work that was put into projectiles, arrows from the Mary Rose etc. cannot be measured using modern standards for working time costs. In ancient times, lead was a waste product from silver mining and was therefore comparatively cheap for a metal. Hazelnut grow like weeds and for a flu flu you don't even need high quality feathers like you do for triple fletching (if you want to hit). Even an imperfectly straight shaft probably wouldn't have much of an impact here.
The fast rate of fire and punch on archers range is the biggest advantage. It requires a lot of practice (comparable to a good hit pattern with a sling) to release arrows really quickly from a bow, but with it you can shoot far more than 12 per minute (however, just my opinion with thumb grip used). I'm afraid that we won't dig up something like that. Stupid natural materials that after 2000 years there won't be anything left.
Good work! I'm jealous of your testing site. I think that the concept is reasonable, and your conjectures regarding it too. If this weapon had caught on and been popular for a while, it seems likely that some mention of it would have survived. If armies fought one way that worked, it would be difficult to get them to risk a major change. These cannot be used by troops in dense formations as a plumbatum can, and in more open formation a slinger can carry far more ammunition and much cheaper ammunition, and be effective at long range. This is why I think that this weapon would not have caught on. It isn't as good as a bow for hunting, and in war, if other weapons fill the same battlefield role as well or better, they will remain. I'll look out for more of your work. A cheap Go-Pro-like knock-off can be got for £30 or so and would add a lot if placed at the target end of these tests. I'd recommend getting a radio mic for better sound.
Thank you sir! These are good points, and have thought along similar lines. It is indeed a device that sits a little awkwardly between javelins, bows, and slings. I believe that if it were to be deployed, it could be given to slingers to train with, to replace the heavy stones (~350-450g) that were used against heavy infantry. The slingers will already be deployed in such a way that they have room to use them, and while the darts are a bit more expensive, the reduced weight, greater range, and increased terminal effect that a 200g dart could provide over a heavy stone, could perhaps give it a worthwhile place in the army.
Thank you also for the practical suggestions!
Nice of you to help other people!
Perhaps they’d be effective against horses. Just hitting a horse anywhere on its body would disrupt a cavalry charge.
Lindy stepping in with the good intentions and admiration
@@gudgengrebeidk about that if the horses are used to distractions, and getting hit and have armor (which I figured they would since they are war horses) it wouldn’t do much if it’s not a well placed shot.
“We are under heavy plumbardment - send more plumbrellas”
- Roman centurion #4
In which "Asterix and Obelix" story was that...?
To avoid PUNishment?
@@bicmac333 Well - it should have been in one … but translating the French subtleties was always largely out of the window anyway …
@@davidberesford7009 The Legionaires of yesteryear would have seen what you did there … 🙌
PFPFTHTHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!
I absolutely loved this: the depth and detail along with the mix of theory, practice and historical context was just perfect.
That sound when the one hits the target is so gratifying!
I was a baseball pitcher, and then taught kids to pitch. There are a couple of techniques that could be worth trying.
You're throwing technique is overall excellent, and had you grown up in the U.S. I think you would make a hell of a good pitcher.
One thing to try is to bring your left arm up instead of letting it go immediately to the side, use your elbow as a quick aiming point right when you are ready to release. The aiming elbow comes up with the lower arm bent in, then as you release, the left arm straightens out, and then folds into your body.
The other thing I always taught along with the elbow aim is to land your left foot straight forward and also in the direction of the target. It's pretty amazing how well these little things help. That being said, you are awesome, and I'm jealous of how well you do all of this. I love it!!
We (slinging community) have long had the conversation that we need to get someone who really understands and can execute good throwing fundamentals to pick up a sling. So the question is...have you tried slinging yet?
@@IronGoober I admire the slinging community, I think that it's an important field of study considering how little we actually know about a topic like hoplite warfare. It's really cool to see people bringing it to life again. That being said, no I haven't tried slinging, but I would love to. I'm an ancient coin conservator now, and my pitching days are behind me, but I would give slinging a try any day! There are coins that depict slingers on them, probably the best depictions are silver stater's of Aspendos in Pamphylia. They date to around the 3rd-2nd century BC, and show wrestlers grappling on one side and a slinger on the other. If you are not already familiar with them, look it up. I've owned a few over the years, they are relatively affordable.
I just found this channel and this was my first viewing of one of his video uploads. I'm skimming some of the comments, trying to find clues as to the likely filming location that he used for the upload (to see how far away it is from the area of the world where I am located), when I stumble upon these comments.
My 2 cents (bc I'm qualified such that my feedback should be considered):
The content-creator responsible for this channel should ABSOLUTELY reach out to Mr. Former Pitching Instructor turned Coin Conservationalist, in order to ask him to provide some freshly-filmed demonstration footage of the various suggestions that he made, for the purposes of evaluating his personal knowledge and ability on the subject of effectively pitching/throwing, and perhaps use this evaluation to determine whether he should appear in some capacity as a guest on the channel - either remotely, or in person (please opt to do this in person - provided that my intuition proves correct about the elevated likelihood of his being a potentially excellent choice as a special guest on your channel - as this would prove to be an exponentially better option, from the audience's perspective).
PS: I'm located within the States - Arizona, to be precise....
Prescott, to be specific. 😜
*Coin Conservator
Additionally, I have some suggestions for improving the Content Creator's Plumbata Designs, in case he is listening (reading, obviously).
Many thanks. As kids we used to make, what we called, ‘throwing arrows’. These were basically home made arrows, with fletchings and a weighted point, which were launched with a piece of string, knotted at one end.
The string was wrapped around the arrow, just forward of the fletching, looped around the knot and pulled out to the point of the arrow and held with it. The arrow was then launched/thrown by releasing the point of the arrow but still holding onto the string. As kids we could easily throw these arrows 100 yards or more and were very accurate with practice.
I think tod, tod Cutler from I can't remember the rest lol but that should set you on your way. I'm about certain he has a video on such a thing
Thank you so much for bringing these stories to life. Brilliant channel, brilliant host.
Thanks for taking lawn darts to the next level.
Ahhh the good old days, when our entertainment was both fun and dangerous
And mathematics, physics and your inner Dennis the Menace
Ahahaha, this is the only reason I'm watching this
that was a very interesting take on the plumbata. And i very much enjoyed every second of it. while we cannot be sure if it existed or not (in this design or similar ones) I would argue that even if this invention existed it would have not been a prevalent sight on the battlefield but rather limited. The reason: it would have been another logistical branch to take care of for a weapon that is essentialy (in my eyes) very limited for inter-unit use. the plumbata was used because it was small enough to be carried in large numbers, and can be thrown out from a tight formation. and the slingers can just throw thing that are much cheaper and faster to procure i.e. rocks, lead, clay etc. And archers have their bow, that gives them very good accuracy and range (the same goes for the manuballista). and the javelin throwers have their javelin, that would have more stopping power (especially when used with an amentum) not only in transferred energy but also because of its weight to give the enemy a hard time using their shields.
But adding to your argument, that the sling-plumbata would be used complementary, I would dare to say, that all these weapon (-systems) mentioned above are already complementing themselves in a combined-arms-strategy.
so opening another logistical branch for something that is more expensive than sling-ammo, less accuarte than a bow, has less stopping power than a javelin, and cannot be used within tight formations; a weapon than can do everything but nothing really better as the above mentioned weapons, would have probably not been worth it logistically, especially for the waining economy of the late roman empire of the 4th and 5th century.
but that are just my thoughts on it.
Again. really nice video and beautiful design none the less!
Thanks for sharing your thoughts! Some good points there.
In my tests, these darts have a bit more kinetic energy than a 1kg javelin, but less momentum. Because of the higher speed, they would be more likely penetrate through a shield, but with less overall energy transfer. The real benefit I see of a javelin is how you can throw it from a tight space and easily encumber a shield, with just the one.
I'm not sure whether these darts would be more useful light or heavy. Lighter makes it closer to an arrow, heavier makes it closer to a javelin.
One area I could see these darts being used, is freeing up archers being used against formations. They could then be used in a role that really takes advantage of their superior accuracy.
@Archaic-Arms I would use it more for skirmishing if I was a commander It blowing a hole through a shield. Would make it quite vicious.
However, it would greatly compliment javelins. And would be great in densely packed formations. Due to its mild accuracy
@Archaic-Arms I think they would be best as secondary weapons for javelinmen. You can have a quiver of them, easily increaseing the number of missiles a javelinman can carry to battle.
This is great! As kids we used a split stick and forced a stone in between the strakes to throw it a very great distance. The stick being about 40 to 50 centimeters long.
To grade it up for the plumbata I would use a longer stave of up to 1,5 meter with a hook on the one end for the loop of your plumbata. Using both hands in a flip motion should lob it a long distance indeed.
I love your content mate. You inspired me to make my own balearic slings. I have made two now and plan to make many many more.
It is true, that after you make the first one you don't stop, I have 7, and that's not counting the ones I took apart after trying them out and not liking them.
There is definitely historic reference to plumbata being “slung”- I have always assumed it was done with a specialized sling, pathfinder style. This make’s SIGNIFICANTLY more sense and I agree that it is likely they would have tried this. To think this was your first time using it and you got that kind of energy, range and grouping! Professional Roman sappers would absolutely be doing this.
Couldn't you yeet it like an atlatl?
@@thereisa6inthename that’s how a pathfinder sling works! But it takes time to set up and you have to be careful to get it right. In Caracalla’s Parthian campaign the Romans had a unique way of destroying Parthian cavalry- they arrayed sappers in a loose formation where they were weak to charges by horse. They created an immediate threat by discharging their missiles then broke ranks and fled before oncoming cavalry charges. As they did so they dropped caltrops which pierced the horse’s hooves. Mind you I think I got that from Gibbons but I always had trouble picturing what missile weapon they could have used under such pressure that posed such an immediate threat to armored cavalry but was cheap enough in material and training to risk losing on such a maneuver.
What's the reference to the plumbata being 'slung'? I know the (very limited) sources that describe plumbatae (Vegetius, De rebus bellicis, Strategicon) and none refer to such a throwing method.
Speaking of TTRPGs, way back in the day the first three editions of D&D had wizards being proficient in a limited number of weapons which included "darts". As historically ignorant kids we thought they meant modern darts and didn't understand how that could be a valid weapon. What they were referring to of course were plumbata.
Aren’t kestros slings a thing?
Going through all your videos currently and absolutely loving your channel. Seriously amazing work on your research, craftsmanship, and presenting the information in a way that is entertaining and educational. Thank you!
In America, we had something like this back in the early 1970s. It was called "Lawn Darts." It was similar to horseshoes, but you played until only one was left standing. lol Great video. Interesting concept.
😂
[70s announcer guy] Yesteryear's ranged warfare is today's back-yard entertainment. Fun for all ages! [/announcer guy]
But you didn't have a Snuggie .
@markdavis7397
Check out David Hahn, dude built a reactor in his backyard at 17. Was nicknames the radioactive boyscout or something similar.
I'm still hard headed t😊
I think this channel can get a lot bigger if you keep making content like this. Good luck!
Absolutely golden content. I love the modern world. Now people like me who are very interested in ancient warfare but without the time and practice and expertise required to go and pick up a sharp stick and whirl it above my head without stabbing myself can have a reasonable idea of what these devices are capable of. More options for historians beyond reading writing and speculating is incredibly valuable. Keep up the good work!
This was fascinating. You went ALL IN on this project!
We had those as toys in the 70's lawn darts .... what a life we lead.
Really interesting.
I love how experimental archaeology can give us some insight into the past.
Also. Nice throws. Im really impressed.
Fantastic, love this channel very dearly.
Wow! The amount of time, effort, and thought put into this is truly impressive. It looks like most of my thoughts have already been stated in the comments. I really enjoyed the experiment, and the format in which it was conducted. Perhaps not as practical as an ancient battlefield weapon, however with all of the SHTF and bug out content out there, I could definitely see modern preppers purchasing or making this sort of thing. I really enjoy this kind of content, and how thorough you are about it. I look forward to more content. Well done indeed!
I like how you think about this period in our history.
I'm quite sure that there were weapons and arms that were invented that we'll simply never know about... Rare one offs, things too brutal even for then, perhaps?!
Like the diving suits and other artifact's from some of the old mouldy codices.
Great content and brilliant expo of a another deadly weapon. ❤
I'm not even sure how I found this video. I only know I am grateful that I did. And even more grateful for you making it. This was Badass!! I am now a subscribed member. Again,Thank you Mate.
I find the idea of a long range plumbata that combines the momentum and penetrating power of a javelin with the range of a bow very fascinating. I do wonder if a lighter, longer and more flexible shaft could be used to good effect, and what the limit is. There is likely a limit to the length in terms of how high it could be thrown (for range). Additionally with the loop at the end and the sling-like spin before the throw, the packing of the throwers is necessarily not as dense as it would be with archers (fewer people can fit in an area, otherwise they hit each other). That is one interesting aspect and consideration that also follows along with how effective a group of slingers would be. Only so many can fit within a given area and fire at once.
I would love to see future penetration tests against hard shields and to see further assessment on how this "new" plumbata could have harried an enemy by becoming embedded in their shields.
Awesome stuff as always.
I think it's more akin to a Swiss arrow than a javelin.
The way you're bent forward before throwing reminded me of bas relief of old times.
Good stuff. Thank
I hadn't ever heard of a weapon like this, but it's cool seeing it actually being used and knowing how good he is with a sling gives a lot of insight into just how difficult these projectiles were to use with any accuracy.
It just requires a little more practice to adjust the to the loop style of release. Even despite that, the second group I got was about ~1m at 40m, which considering is the first day of throwing for accuracy, is quite decent.
@Archaic-Arms could you put some string through the loop and launch it more like a sling?
I was just watching a archeology channel and they unearthed some slinger ammunition. I was completely amazed, searched for Roman Slingers and found your awesome channel!
Thanks for keeping this amazing piece of history alive.
Totally fascinating!
The mass and speed of these could easily cause mayhem on the enemy. Great video! I would try wooden fins or any other kind of material that is stiff, good luck on attaching them on the shaft though.
IMHO rawhide/Parchment or cloth/paper stiffened with glue will be easier to attach and stiff enough.
Loved the presentation and the video. I'm sure that my late friend would have loved this video as she was a professor of Roman history
Awesome. The fact that with the first proof of concept you managed to outperform (in energy and momentum) a very skilled archer like Joe Gibbs who shot with a 160 lbs bow (close to the upper limit that a person may pull) is testament to the viability of this concept.
It's perfectly possible that the plumbata is a descendant of a hunting version of the kestros, since the kestros and the plumbata both appeared in the western Balkans (the non-Greek word kestros points to an origin outside of Greece/Macedonia proper). So the possibility of launching it with rotation would be integral to the use of such a weapon.
IMHO the plumbata was indeed used with various throwing methods and this would have been one of them. The other would have been with an amentum and a third one would be achieved by resting the rear end of the lead weight in the "fork" between forefinger and middle finger to launch the plumbata javelin-style for better accuracy at short ranges.
As for your variant I'd suggest larger and stiffer vanes/fletchings (analogous to historical hide/parchment and paper/cloth stiffened with glue) to reduce rotation and fishtailing after launch. The close proximity of the vanes to the axis of rotation means that they won't add too much drag to the initial wind-up.
I'd also suggest making a variant with a ring-shaped weight. The shaft passes through the hole of the ring thus the ring-weight will be free to run up and down the shaft but won't flying off it as it will be hemmed in by the barbs of the dart-head on top of the shaft and the stiff vanes on the bottom of the shaft. When you rotate the dart the ring-weight will rise all the way to the barbs due to centrifugal force and stay close to that point until the landing and impact. When the dart penetrates the ring-weight will be pushed back improving the penetration in hard targets like a shield or armor.
Your ring weight idea is fascinating. Perhaps one could be crafted out of lead.
@@ahmedshaharyarejaz9886 Instead of a ring a length of pipe would do Is lead piping still sold? I believe not so, to keep things simple and safe, I think that galvanized steel pipe or copper pipe can be used instead of a lead weight.
This pipe will fit loosely around the shaft and be kept in place by means of wooden wedges keeping it from moving during launch. On impact these wedges will be broken or dislocated and the pipe will be pushed back to allow for deeper penetration.
@ΕρνέστοςΣμίθ oh yes ofcourse. We have access to pipes today, lol.
@@ahmedshaharyarejaz9886 lead piping is forbidden in Europe as far as i know.
@ΕρνέστοςΣμίθ well one could always use pipes of similiar weight. Probably means a longer length of pipe sections will be needed. In a worst-case scenario, it might be possible to commission a few custom lead weights.
Good prep on the introduction to the weapon and I really liked the fact you included all the target practice in period appropriate dress no less! It's amazing how quickly it aligns in flight, saw that in the slo mo. Great work on explaining the science behind this.
I'd love to see you sling things at ballistic gel. It would be really interesting to see how lethal a sling might have actually been
Also the various plumbata. The forces being spoken of should be placing it in the rough range for injury as an arrow would. With less equipment needed and less training being required...
Various weights, as well, would be interesting to see tested.
gel is for weapons that shoot not for those that cut. I think you do not get the point of those gels. Puncture channel of cutting weapons is very clear.
@@KA-jm2cz What? No it's really not clear how far it would penetrate into a human body and how much damage you might expect it to do. Also, this is not a sword. Slings do not cut, they shoot... the projectiles act a lot more like bullets than any kind of cutting weapon.
I haven't seen anyone use a baelic sling against ballistic gel, and although it's easy to imagine that it must be quite lethal, it's difficult to judge just how dangerous slings were without ballistic gel.
Some of his sling tests the projectile has about 200 joules of energy. This is about the same force as a .22 LR round out of a rifle.
Excellent idea and implementation. Thanks for your work!
The problem with plumbata is that it is so easy to use that when used from a long distance it can easily be collected and thrown back at you by unskilled users from smaller distance, when it is more accurate and thus - dangerous. Also plumbata were used in tight formations by a soldiers using shields. This way of throwing would be impossible to deploy on a battlefield.
This right here. The point of long range missile weapons is to kill and discourage movment of troops long before melee, not arm them before melee. Bows, slings etc require a second tool to shoot arrows or sling stones back which most infantry will not have on them. That's why long range missile weapons are usually not used against other missile weapon troops but rather infantry or cavalry. Short range missile weapons are to kill, distract and break up formations that are in the final charge/contact before melee where they won't be able to pick them up and throw them back because you'll be on them shortly after. The in between zone where you're not yet in melee and the enemy has options is not where you want this type of weapon as they can be used by anyone(even without a sling)..........so you'll be arming the enemy. At least if you stick to conventional bows and slings in the in between range, they won't be able to fire the weapons back at you so easily.
Maybe that was one of the reasons they were barbed.
Exactly. These plumbatae would have to have some kind of protection similar to what Tod from Tod's Workshop had recently done - once they hit a target or some other obstacle, the plumbatae were no longer suitable for further use without repairing them, which was important on the battlefield.
BTW. Wreszcie na YT pojawił się ktoś z porządnym nazwiskiem ;)
You’re forgetting about the possibility of it being a horseback weapon
I think that like the Roman Legion's pilum, the leaded weight combined with the impact of a hit, on a human or their armor, the barbed point and the weight would snap off. They didn't happen here, but he was also using modern materials like the carbon fiber points. I agree with the first reply in that this was to break up formations and separate a larger group into a smaller group and thus as Sun Tzu said, 'Divide and Conquer'. He does also answer the question of it being thrown back. He agreed with what I said about the plumbing and that the shift woukd be made thin enough to snap off. Nearly all militaries had some sort of throwing weapon that was used to be a formation breaker. The Frank's would hurl an axe with no handle that was designed to roll along the ground and impact at ankle or knee height, the Chinese used war hammers that were large metal balls attached with chain, they also used handfuls of darts that were sharp on both ends so that if you missed ,they buried in the ground deep enough to just expose the top point a d puncture a foot or hoof, the Visigoths would hurl flaming balls of pitch that were designed to stick onto the target and ignite it, plus they hurled chunks of obsidian which when shattered against a shield, sent razor sharp dust chunks flyng everywhere.
Outstanding design and testing! Seriously creative and well thought out. Love the video. Please do more.
Good work! Great quality content!
I'm enjoying these - your presentation is good and a bit of personality and sense of humour coming through as well but not at the expense of the content - good job 👍🏻
Lord only knows what the youtube algorithm thinks of me! 20-odd minutes ago I was watching a video about some dude's LaTeX configuration in Emacs, now I want to drink wine and make oversized darts to harass and harangue my Gaulish adversaries.
Omg we have exactly the same viewing habits 😂
simply judging from the effectiveness and simplicity of these weapons I can't see how this wouldn't have been used in the ancient world. Good video!
I don't know if this was in response to Tod's Workshop and his recent experiments? But if not, may I suggest you make it so. Your channel would benefit from catching the attention of his audience but more importantly I think he would be fascinated by what you've done and take in on-board.
I think there are some things he would not alter: We have surviving heads of historical plumbata so we know the diameter of the wooden shaft. But I think there's plenty of room to experiemnt with the length of the shaft and the number and size of the fletchings and indeed the idea of "slinging" them.
I realise you are speculating on something different than the hisrtorical examples we have, but this is useful nonetheless!
The head tells us the shaft diameter at the attachment, but not the taper.
@@hanelyp1 Yes, very true.
I believe Todd said he wanted to try changing the length of the shafts he was using in his last video, about a week or so ago.
@@Bristan Yes he did, in his last video on the plumbata he said and i quote:
"We have the head and the weight from archeology , we dont have any of the shaft or the fletchings, so here on end (points from end of the head to the fletchings) we dont know what wa going on, this is just, you know, my work"
@ZiddarthayFarkal I dropped a link with a short description on Tod's video, no Idea if he'll see it, but worth a shot( to this video)
That was very interesting. Thanks for taking the time to put it together.
Brilliant video.
Small comments about the fletching. Changing the design with four feathers and making them larger would certainly equate to better stabilization for conserving short-term energy loss, but would also create more drag than the current design during the stabilized flight stage (depending on how big they were).
So it would be interesting to see what the compromise point could be with the fletching sizes to leverage on for the most efficient outcome.
Again great vid and amazing proof of concept.
That tunic is so cool! I love it!
Have you concidered using a sling stick yet? Those pieces of wood that were used to improve throwing spears ever since the late stone age. It would keep the arrow much more stabil than swinging it around, and it may even provide more acceleration and easier aiming.
Different weapon concept, the atlattle or how ever its spelled was also known to be used by duck hunters in Southern America and Mexico
@@cheeserdane Atlatl, right. I think its well possible that the Romans used them, too. But since its just a piece of wood, it may have decayed just as the shafts of the Plumbata did. Its known to nearly double the range of a spear, so why not those too?
I thought that. Knowing the Romans, there'd be a carving somewhere.
@@stevemorris6855I mean...are there any period depictions of plumbatae in use?
I'm thinking something by the same principle as those tennisball-throwers you can get at the pet store. It's just an extension of your arm really, but they make it easy to throw a ball much further and with less effort. (Because retrievers demand retrieving)
Instead of a cup to hold a tennis ball, there could be a fork that holds the shaft of the plumbata right behind the lead weight.
Je trouve vos travaux passionnant. C'est clair,bien expliqué. Bravo
They definitely seem to be a nice force multiplier, something all your troops could carry and deploy to soften up an enemy formation.
100%
People assume plumbata would be stopped by a mail shirt. No it won't. The heads are made like a thin harpoon, out of soft iron. It would enter the rings by bending itself, and penetrate the body to the lead, but will get stuck when trying to pull out, ripping the flesh it penetrated.
Very interesting. I've never heard of such a thing. Thank you for your video...great job.
This is great concept. I really wonder sometimes how many variations of darts and javelins there have been in the past. Since much of these variations in terms of shaft length, fletching, launch/release mechanisms are made of organic materials, there would be very little archeological evidence of these variations. And classical period historians do refer to this broad category of weapons as "darts" so for all we know any of these variations could have actually been used in the past. Given that our awareness of these darts really only come from written sources, the fact that there were several such variations (Plumbata, Kestros, Swiss/Dutch/Yorkshire Arrows, War darts, ) mentioned should be telling.
I admire this uploader who discovered UA-cam thousands of years ago and uploaded the video.
I’ve heard some theories that a plumbata were thrown using slings. There’s a modified version of balearic slings that can be wrapped around the shaft of the plumbata and can be used to throw it a longer distance. I think that would be an interesting experiment to try.
Interesting weapon; like the sling, it requires space to be properly manipulated while a bow allows more stealth. Thank you for the informative video and the demonstrations !
That's AMAZING. Incredible work!
Lindy recommended a radio mic, but look for a well reviewed lav mic under $40, easy to plug in to a phone (make sure you get one with the right connection) and will give professional enough sounding audio for much cheaper if you don't want the financial stress. Also great for outdoor work as it will eliminate the authentic power tool noises :p
I think you proved several concepts nicely, and the variations in darts and launch methods are almost limitless. With the range demonstrated I could easily imagine several lines launching waves of these as the close quarters troops moved in or several other scenarios. I'm sure a couple well placed nicks on the shaft at the right spot would let the shafts snap off on impact so they would get fired back at you
Fangirl here....love your stuff!
You are really on to something with your recent output, keep the content coming and you’ll be hitting 100k+ subscribers in no time! UA-cam is at it’s best with well made, very niche stuff like this
What if you made the finger loop a bit longer to get some added leverage? For some reason I'm also curious to see what would happen if it was thrown in a figure 8 type fashion. Good video.
A longer loop could also perhaps make it easier to throw.
I was thinking the same thing a longer loop say 5 or 6 inches would increase range and accuracy a leather shoe lace would be ideal.would love to see it with the longer loop keep up the good work 👍and could be thrown over arm like a cricket player as well as under arm
What a great experiment, you put up a robust argument, and made me believe that this could have been a very feasible ancient weapon.
you should talk with Todd 😉
Yes, he has a great workshop
And access to a professional thrower
@@SnoopyTheBomberhe will need an diffrent thrower for, this, since this is more sling related then javelin
@@stefthorman8548 I think you're right
This was the quickest subscription to a channel I’ve ever made.
This was great! I would enjoy seeing this explored.
Great stuff, love this type of experimenting with historical weaponry
Throwing it is like using a baitcaster type fishing reel. It requires release of the line/plumbata well before when it seems it should be. Once you get the hang of it, remarkable accuracy. What a great weapon! Have you tried these with a nice strong atlatl?
I haven't tested them with an atlatl yet, but from other tests an atlatl throw doesn't compete to the speed of a sling throw.
Such a good idea to provide mas, speed, Joules, and momentum. It makes it easier to compare various projectile weapons.
Back in the day, I used to make these out of lawn jarts. All I had to do was switch out the positions of the handle with the fins.
This was a great video! Fun to watch, interesting to listen to. The only thing I could come up with as a reason not to utilize the plumbata on a battlefield is that it takes too much space to throw. To sling a three feet long plumbata, I would assume it would take about six feet of area between each slinger. This would make the use of a 3 feet plumbata next to impossible on crowded battlefields. This is probably why no weapon utilizing a swinging motion has been widely preferred in actual battles. So, I question is, is it possible to sling a plumbata efficiently using a more vertical swing?
That's why I lean towards the idea that slingers could carry a bundle of these into battle. They'd be already deployed with enough room to use them. I've tried overhand throws, but it's not as easy with a bundle of darts in the off-hand.
@@Archaic-Arms Thank you for the reply and the insight into my question. I don't want to ask too much but I'd really enjoy watching a sequel to this video. Thanks again!
Can't wait to see the next version man, cool experiment.
Ooh lawn darts, I remember these from the eighties. Seriously though, very cool content. Never knew about this one thanks for video
My thoughts:
1) First thing after all the testing I thought of slinging a smaller plumbata before you mentioned the Kestros.
2) Try doing away with the loop and go for a small toggle which might allow for more precise release. The loop I believe is the reason your shots initially went left.
3) Why does it need to be a solid shaft? What if sections were attached by a thin rope with wider fletchings. It could be spun up easier like a sling and the fletching adds the drag to stabilise the flight and straighten out the whole thing.
4) Try a plumbata style head with the weight closer to the head but rather than a shaft and fletching, use long wide ribbon. This ought to create the stabilising drag but also be swung about in the sling fashion you're used to.
5) Add a small notch to the front of the shaft and throw with a lever like an atlatl or something flexible and long planted into the ground and weighed down at the base. Think of bending your fingers back with a long fingernail to flick something off. A crude catapult.
I quite liked the video, it also filled me with a tonne of ideas so apologies for throwing them all at you.
Like archery or even bowling, your left foot is what you adjust and not your throw or aim. It is also important to let your left foot pivot slightly during the throw, for more centrifugal power, and to keep your left knee and ankle from twisting and injuring your joints. Very interesting study. Thanks.
fantastic video. i love that you have expanded beyond just the Balearic sling. no complaints about those vids btw, they’re great too, but expanding and testing adds a lot to the Archaic Arms name beyond just the sling
Love the video, love the channel, great job dude!
Had these when I was a kid; "Jarts", AKA lawn darts. We had tons of fun with them.
I wonder about a knot rather than a loop for the release. Most slings I have seen use a knot and I wonder if it would make this more sling-like and thus not needing so much re-learning. I suppose you could put a small ball at the end of the shaft too but I think that would be less sling-like.
Very cool stuff!
Baby of the 80's confirming the deadliness of Roman lawn darts
This is great! I literally made a similar weapon for a Dark Sun D&D campaign that had Last Oasis elements with those giant base walkers. People could throw these darts at enemy sails, put barbs on them to bleed enemies on grazing hits, clay jars of fire instead of the typical weight that could ignite oils or cloth. You did a great job actually using it and analyzing it.
I think the Romans not adopting and perfecting the tech may come down to the reverence of the pilum and how it works in conjecture with shield bearing tactics. Or perhaps more specifically, the type of shield utilized? A large square shield like that would be better used as a passive. All of that needing the integration and knowledge to perfect it, perhaps they thought it not worth the time when the two were compared, or was something easily looked over for their mindset at the time?
Either way, i could 100% see this as a thing that existed.
This reminds me of a dart a good friend of mine made 7yrs ago. He made a dart out of a 2ft long piece straight wood, the diameter of which was 3 inch thick. He left the base of the wood around 4 inch an tapered down the rest to a point an drilled a hole thru an attached a strong cord loop. He used Fletching 2inch under this, it looked like a dart apart from the fact the tip was the bulb and had a 6 inch blade attached. The slinging method was cord passed thru the loop. When I asked why he made it, he saz it was for elderly gentleman. The gentleman in his youth spent his youth summers with travelling romany gypsies, an the dart was made by one the leaders. Teaching the young lads part the ancient traditions, apparently they was used by warring gypsy groups in ancient times
196 yds distance is no small feat. Multiply your dart by 300-500(?) throwers and you would be raining hell down on an enemy. I know I wouldn't want to be on the receiving side!
Good job!
Without any practical experience using a balearic sling or a plumbata, I'm curious about the choice to use a loop on the end. I know that a loop gives the sling a firm anchor point, and the loosing of the missile is actuated by releasing the other end of the sling. But on an elongated plumbata such as this, the loop is attached to the projectile itself. It seems that upon release, any snagging of the loop on the finger would affect the flight path of the plumbata, impacting speed, distance, accuracy... For an analogous example, "snatching" at a bowstring upon release can cause the arrow to fishtail and fly poorly. Perhaps a version with a simple knot at the end of a short cord could be interesting to test?
Love the video! Super interesting content, keep it up!
Slinger, "Ooh, way to the left with that one!"
One of the hundred men standing in rank with the target, "AAAAAAAAAGH!"
Six shots in the experiment, and "thwack!"
Ringing the bell at the end of the video gave me a good giggle.
Great tests! Greetings from a slinger. I wonder whether it would be beneficial to get rid of the shaft,and just have a piece of string attached to the lead,and "arrowhead". Or maybe just a tiny wooden peg cast in the lead,and a string tied to the wooden peg. Not sure,if it would have better range,as the rope would flop around in the wind,and most definitely would be enough to stabilize the head point first. It would be easier to carry them,but probably a bit slower to deploy.
Great analysis. Very impressive weapon. I wonder if using a launching stick and not just the arm would give more endurance and power?
As a fantasy/historical fiction writer, such videos are gold. Subscribed.
You are right, like any new weapon, you need to find the "knack" of repetitive throwing. Good experiment well done!
What a great channel. Just watched with my 10 year old son. It would be very interesting so see the effect of modified flights/fletchings. Increasing the size and number could stabilise the dart but might also increase drag.
what would happen if you shortened the haft and lengthened the strap? if you had a small ring on the base could you loop leather around the ring in the base of the plumbata so that when you release it you keep the loop of leather like a sling? would that cause too much friction? if not it would allow for adjustable energies depending on available space and would make them much harder to throw back.
Human brilliance... Totally mind boggling design.. 👆🏾🔥🔥🔥🤯🤯🤯🤯took flight after release..
That was interesting! Never heard of, or noticed these, but as kids used to make something similar. A 3' bamboo cane, a cornflake packet flight at the fat end, and a lump of clay for the weight.
We threw them more like a stick grenade!
Very interesting, I think with the larger flights and experimentation with the projectile length and varing the weight could result in a very effective weapon. It is already a very effective weapon
As for them throwing it back, make the loop so small as to require a launcher -- a small strip of leather that stayed with the thrower. Soon enough the enemy would adapt, but with a little ingenuity your team could stay ahead of them. You don't have to make immediate re-use impossible, just make launching it more time consuming than it is for you because of that "one secret trick".
Can a plumbata be shot from a bow, or possibly thrown with an atlatl?
For speed shooting, couldn’t you make a little thing to go over the index finger with a stud of some type between the knuckles on the side of the finger so you could just hook your loop, pinch your thumb and release by unpinching?
There are certainly a lot of options for a release assist. At very least, the next time I use them I will have a finger protector to increase comfort, and thus accuracy.
These types weapons were used in sustained ways by using geographic advantages. When you have the high ground you have extended range and can hold off equal range weapons. Sometimes slings can out range war bows. That’s why the lay of the land is more important than the weapons.
0:39 the red garment while sporting a monocle and a camera angle as if you're talking down to your students would be a nice addition in future videos.
Great video, I think the issue is the long arrow, this gives you too much rotational force for accuracy. Could you try a very short, top heavy bolt with a string(s) /band attached? You could use your regular sling shot throw and just fully release the string (it can fly with the arrow and will stabilize the flight like the wings). I guess would be best of two worlds.
Just my armchair slinger thought: given how throwing stick improved range of spears, it would be reasonably easy to design an eighteen inch stick with a leather loop on one end to go around wrist, the other end would have a small ivory peg to hold the loop on the plumbata and the real trick is to attach a long trigger mechanism hinged somewhere near the middle of the throwing stick. At desired moment of release a finger or thumb would squeeze the long trigger and the other end of the trigger would shove the plumbata loop off the small peg. Given the length of the throwing stick the shorter plumbata you started with might be a good answer. The long trigger might be fashioned from bronze and inset into a channel in the throwing stick.
What if you used this with a staff, or a staff sling? One with a double action tip, with one side smooth, and the other concaved, for two separate release points?
That's really nice. First time coming across your channel.
I don't throw darts nearly enough to say I know what I am doing and I have the same problem with them going of to the left. I feel that's because I don't throw them from center of my vision. I throw them from my right. I compensate by aiming to the lower right side of the target. And I hit pretty close to bull's eye, and often in the eye. But that's only after few tries to test the distance.
This is absolutely amazing. This gives me an incredible idea for Tolkien-esque idea for a warrior society story.
great job!!! A dart with a hazelnut shaft and a "Flu flu" fletching would be interesting. This Plumbata version would still be significantly more expensive than a sling bullet because it requires more work, I have agree with Lindybeige here. However, one must also consider from historical context that the work that was put into projectiles, arrows from the Mary Rose etc. cannot be measured using modern standards for working time costs. In ancient times, lead was a waste product from silver mining and was therefore comparatively cheap for a metal. Hazelnut grow like weeds and for a flu flu you don't even need high quality feathers like you do for triple fletching (if you want to hit). Even an imperfectly straight shaft probably wouldn't have much of an impact here.
The fast rate of fire and punch on archers range is the biggest advantage. It requires a lot of practice (comparable to a good hit pattern with a sling) to release arrows really quickly from a bow, but with it you can shoot far more than 12 per minute (however, just my opinion with thumb grip used). I'm afraid that we won't dig up something like that. Stupid natural materials that after 2000 years there won't be anything left.
Outstanding job! Just need a bit of practice. I love plumbata and always thought they were under appreciated.
More please!