Here's my take on this. A 1970 Speer loading manual shows max loads for .38 Spcl the same as a +p load in the latest Speer manual. So we always had the opportunity to load +p back in the day.
Before +P my neighbor shot at two guys with a 1920s H&R 32 S&W that had broken in on him. One was hit in the chin and paralyzed for life when the projectile settled in his neck, and the other guy ran. I think my question is have criminals skin really gotten that much tougher over the years or is all this high powered stuff just an excuse for more expensive toys In the name of protection.?
The +P is more powerful, but it does make shooting a 38 a bit more snappy. Watch Paul Harrell's video on it, you can clearly tell shooting the +P rapidly would be a bit more of a problem, and he is an amazing shooter, put it in the average shooter's hands and it would be even tougher.
@@joebauers3746 So the old 32 and 38 S&W cartridges were just fine for self defense. It's all just a racket. I have handled firearms since 1970 don't need Paul or anyone else.
One of the smarter people on UA-cam. Nice to see someone actually take their time to explain the foundations of their opinions especially when it revolves around actual factual evidence. Well done sir and even 4 years later, thank you for your time!!!
When the use of microfusion (MIM) in the manufacture of firearms was generally extended by weapon manufacturers since the early 1970s, and light aluminum alloy frames became popular, they observed that although They were construction techniques that managed to make firearms cheaper and reduce production times. They had certain material weaknesses that caused some parts to suffer premature fractures, cracks and wear. As it still had to spend a lot of time improving the MIM alloys and metallurgical techniques, the "gun industry lobby" managed to make a "high handed act" and in 1972 the Permanent International Commission on Firearms Testing and the SAAMI, which is who internationally establishes the approvals for cartridges, reduced the maximum pressure values that these ammunition were capable of developing. In fact, the standard of the previous ammunition was higher to the point of being practically what is known today as "+P" (depending on the manufacturer's values) that were created for the needs of users, such as law enforcement, security professionals, armed forces, etc., who needed "full power" ammunition but with the tagline of not recommending at all the use of "+P" ammunition to avoid responsibilities in the after-sale for the deterioration of the weapons in their sales civilians under warranty. There are now many ammunitions with very powerful general purpose loads for use with any weapon thanks to metallurgical improvements and MIM process engineering by manufacturers (some more than others, as always). The fact is that the recurring question always arises whether a classic model from the "PRE-MIM" era (produced with classic forging and machining techniques) can regularly use "+P" ammunition. To answer this, it must be taken into account that for each of the ammunition manufacturers "+P" does not mean "exactly the same" and that in general, many of those ammunition are very close to the previous pressure values for that cartridge. , and for which those weapons were designed. If you get one of those weapons in almost unused condition since many people almost never shoot their weapons and end up sleeping in a nightstand drawer for years, they are inherited, and if they exist and sometimes appear on the market, it could be used "+P" ammunition with values close to those of the original standard without major concerns (do not forget that "+P" is not always the same for each manufacturer, and that is why no one undertakes to categorically say if that type of ammunition can be used in previous weapons due to the risk of a lawsuit from civilians). If we are talking about weapons whose use and history is unknown, we do not know the stress accumulated by the weapon and which generally cannot be observed with the naked eye, out of prudence I would not use "+P". If we are also talking about original models of a certain historical value for which it may even be difficult to obtain a replacement, we must be cautious and in addition to shooting it very sporadically, use the softest loads available for that cartridge. In short, use "+P" ammunition that most closely matches the original standard values of the "pre-mim" era and be aware of the condition of your weapon. Regards!
Very informative video. I carry an older Taurus Model 85 38 special steel framed 3" for edc that was made in 1992. I've never really been comfortable shooting too much +p ammo in it but I always figured that the steel frame could handle it. I especially liked how you pointed out the different frame enhancements and reinforcements on the S&W j-frame aluminum alloy frame. I've wondered how they could make an aluminum frame revolver that was stronger than a steel frame and could be rated for +P ammo. Thank you for the info.
Excellent video! I have a S&W model 60 that I bought in 1985 and fired plenty of +P to know it can withstand the pressure. Like you, I typically use the inexpensive Magtech 38 Special rounds at the range.
For the past 45 years my m36 no dash has had nothing but +P and home loads that nudge slower 357mag territory. It’s likely averaged 15 rounds a month in that time frame. My m60 no dash has had around 600 rounds of +P over the past 3 years. They both lock up as tight as my wife’s new m638. The family member and original owner of my M36 has been loading at home since the 1950s. He told me the 38Special load specs of old are every bit as hot as modern +P loadings. I don’t sweat the +P fear.
When I entered law enforcement in 1982 I carried the S&W Mal 10 with the lighter, tapered bbl. The new thing was we carried the .38 spl 158 gr LSWCHP + P load, known now as the FBI load. At that time your typical load of ammo was 18 rounds. Some carried it in loops, some in dump boxes and young whippersnappers like me, speed loaders. I was teased for carrying (gasp) a third speed loader, giving me 27 rounds. I figured if the bad guy was betting on me having 18 rounds and then rushing me he was going to retreat it. We also shot the +P loads in our off duty/ detective Chiefs special pistols. New tests show it doesn’t expand in the snub nose. I e since gone to the Remington 110 grain SJHP LOAD, hoping the lighter non + P round will expand. If anyone has done tests with this round, please let me know. I also use it in my S&W M&P pre modal 10. I have also carried my Chief Special loaded with the 148 grain wadcutter round as I understand it performs well out of the 2” bbl. The Chief of my small hometown PD carried wadcutter in his Modal 10 back in the 1960s. He said it was better than the then common 158 grain LRN cartridge. I think he was right. He did shoot a burglar several years later and the wadcutter rounds stopped him. The next morning I walked to school right by the spot and saw the blood on the pavement.
I just bought some Remington plus p fbi type ammo. That lead hollow point semi wadcutter is one nasty bullet. I think it is all you need for everyday carry. If bigger trouble is brewing I have much bigger options.
@@jenniferbeatty7545 Nickel plating is a corrosion inhibiting finish that slows rust and makes things shiny,and pretty.The same care given to a blued gun should be administered to a nickel plated gun,however.
I thought that at first while fretting over this topic but I dont let that faze me any longer so long as the arm is from Colt or S&W. I'm pretty confident their metallurgy was very good around the turn of the century and quite competent before that. If you think about it Elmer Keith was experimenting with custom hot 38special in the late 20s early 30s in a 38special gun manufactured around then. He ended up birthing 357mag out of a 38 special. Run of the mill 1930s factory 357 mag is about 200-300 fps hotter then than the big name box stuff you get at the store today according to the old timers that loaded at home since the 1950s. 38 Special+p wasnt a thing till the 1970s. You've got a few interesting things that happened then. Sue they neighbor became rampant in the USA and in the arms industry? Ammunition loading scales were changes from one system to another. From what all the old home loaders have told me all ammo loading was neutered. Especially in dimensions that had been around the longest. Theres alot of legal liability when your in the business of manufacturing arms and ammo. Nowdays I dont fret over what I stuff inside any of my wheelies when it comes to big name store bought ammo. The boutique makers like Buffalo Bore that are considered so hot? They're essentially loading stuff like grandpa used before the 1970s neutering.
Thank you for this informative video regarding the differences of ammo for 38 Special. It helped me greatly and I appreciate the time you took to explain the differences for +P. When I received the ammunition in the mail I was very concerned with the noted “full size handgun” notation.
I inherited both a 36 no dash and a 10-6. I have shot minimal +p out of both with no issues but I keep them both loaded with +p for self defense. I want 5 and 6 rounds of the best bang for my buck when its life or death and I'm positive they can both handle it.
Great video I now have a older model 36 with a 3 inch barrel, made in the early 80s I was avoiding plus p ammo but now I'll shoot some. And load it for personal protection.
When I started my career in ‘68 we were issued standard pressure 158 grain lead round nose rounds. Super Vel had a round that was as hot or hotter than anything around, but we were restricted to issued ammo and our sergeants made sure we were carrying department ammo. A wife, kids & a mortgage helped ensure I kept department rounds in my issued revolver.
You did well and i agree with your results .. You covered it very well going from standard .38 spl loading to the plus + .. And you touched on pressures of both that is true , going from standard pressure of 17,000 to 18,500 or even 19,000 i read in Lyman's fine reloading manual listed for plus + loads and std loads .. Two things jump out to me , first one is using the same powder but increasing the load 3/10 of one grain or 0.003 to make it a plus + load.. Second thing that jumped out was the increase of velocity of 47 fps .. wow now is that really worth it what the little fps you gain ? If one could pick up 100 fps more yes that's a gain and a lot of gain in fps ..Now then we would be talking plus + that would make a difference .. 3/10 of a grain of the powder is nothing to speak of and of course it depends on the burning rate of the powder but just to gain 47 fps for what ? I ask myself why and what difference is 47 fps going to make on target ? This is assuming it's a violent attack on my life and i have to stop the threat .. I would have to say with all the target material i have fired both loads into for years i see no difference in bullet performance .. True you squeeze the bottle a little tighter you get a couple more drops out of it , but is a couple more drops enough to really help you ?? But it sells more firearms as Plus + is more powerful and that's all you need to know , just don't worry about the rest of it because it does not matter ..
Shoot 'regular' ammo at the range. At the end of your session you may want to shoot some plus P so you'll be familiar with that particular rounds recoil. It is a bit more than other ammo's recoil. Get to know the round you'll be using to save you're life.
Awesome! I have been wondering about that. I have a S&W Model 60 no dash 38 spl and was told not to shoot +P ammo on it. I am going to load up and give it a try! Thanks!!
I've always shot standard pressure out of my 38 specials, but +Ps in the night stand. I do shoot +P for the last cylinder at the range and over 40 years I haven't ruined any of my pistols.
Hello from Croatia! I have Colt detective (3rd gen.), And I was shoot a few rounds of 38+P ammo. Nothing spectacular was happend. Maybe a litlle bigger BOOM 😀
I wanted a Colt like yours but bought a S&W Model 60 instead. You don’t need a 38 + P. Just use the regular 38, a very good defensive round. I wish Croatia won in 2018.
I agree 100% with everything you said. Alot of people are scared to death of plus p ammo..they think its going to turn the revolver into a hand grenade and that's simply not true. Todays plus p is not that big of a deal. I have shot some 60s era standard ammo and it was way hotter than any of todays plus p with the exception of buffalo bore. Im not saying to go firing hundreds of plus p in a non rated gun but a few here and there at the range and carrying them for self defense is not a problem. As long as the revolver is in decent condition your good to go.
@@jsmunitions1471 Read a contributor recently who seemed knowledgeable & advised not to use plus-Ps if the revolver was old enough to have a pinned bbl. .Don't recall his name.
@@cleondubois1270 Yea, the proofing info I mentioned from SAAMI is for modern .38 Special revolvers. They're required to be proofed for +P loads regardless of barrel markings. That said, standard for proofing loads is 20% above max pressure for a given cartridge. Max pressure for .38 Special vs. .38 Special +P is a 1,500 PSI difference. Would +P loads in something like a S&W 10-6 with a pinned barrel be hard on the gun? For sure. Increased wear and tear on parts would be expected in this case. However, would it be enough pressure to cause a catastrophic failure? Probably not. People were firing +P ammo in these guns long before the actual +P rating came about.
I carry a Smith & Wesson 637 J frame. The cylinder and barrel are stainless steel. Rest of it is aluminum and its +P rated right on the barrel. My carry ammo is Speer Gold Dot 135 grain +P short barrel hollow points. At the range for practice I use a mixture of Remington and Federal 130 grain FMJ standard target loads. The point I am trying to make here is I cannot feel ANY difference whatsoever in felt recoil , muzzle flip, or ability to get back on target amongst the three different loads. They all feel exactly the same to me. IMHO the +P designation is more hype then reality. They can squeeze a bit more out of your pocket by slapping the +P designation on the box while not giving you anything noticeable in return. Just my 2 cents.
Before 38 Special ammo was rated +P, standard pressure for that round was MORE than today's +P. That was the industry standard. That standard was lowered by the industry. The +P rating is a marketing term. I have a Colt Cobra, my EDC. It was made in 1954. My carry ammo is Remington Golden Saber +P.
The Golden Saber is a terrific load; I have lot # that gets 920 f.p.s. from my 1975 agent. Be aware, however, that pre-1968 Colt D Frames had .354 caliber barrels. They were not designed for jacketed bullets. I know of a case where a bullet.got lodged in the barrel of a Detective Special and a couple more bullets lodged behind it before it blew.
Yeah I don't think so. My uncle was a cop back in the 70's. The garbage ammo back then I could shoot one handed with my nails done. I can't do that with today's +p ammo.
Excellent video. I have a model 60 38 special and was going to sell it and buy a 38 special plus p now I'm not. Thanks for the clarity and you knowledge.
Absolutely agree. I have a 1977 Colt Cobra and the Colt specs in the manual back then are factory rated at pressures higher than today's +P ammo. Standard ammo for range and +P for EDC.
All good information and I agree with your opinions. I have been shooting and reloading for over 50 years and my favorite cartridge is the 38/357. My grandfather served in the NYPD for 35 years retiring in 1971 and carried a nickel plated 5" M10 in 38 Special. I inherited that M10 and along with many boxes of 158gr 38 Special ammo and liked it so much I purchased a 4" stainless M64 in the 80's used, also an NYPD (NY1) marked revolver. I also have a 642 for CCW. What I have found is that the older 38 Special ammo performs very close to the +P loads of today. The older ammo I have fried in the M64 is right there in velocity with modern +P loadings. Some of the boxes I have are also have early markings of +P in a circle, all are Winchester. Bottom line is that IMHO vintage loadings of 38 Special were much hotter than those of today and those revolvers stood up to the pressures no problem. Would I feed a steady diet to them of +P ? No, it will increase wear and that old M10 has been worked over by the armorers a lot and is a little loose anyhow but my 1994 642 is NOT marked +P but does have the newer magnum frame. Because it is one of my CCW firearms it does get fed a steady diet of +P ammo including my personal 125gr handloads, I practice with what I carry and I have put multiple thousands of +P rounds thru it without harm.
One of the best videos i have seen. if my b38 special with regular hollow points dosent stop them i will throw the empty weapon at them and run like hell.
@@nathanlambshead4778 I always wondered why Superman took 6 rounds in the chest with his hands on his hips, then ducked when the empty gun was thrown at him... 😉
So a 1976 mint Colt Cobra 38 Special Snub Nose can handle a Plus P Round? Yes, seems to be the answer you give and for that I say thanks because I agree with you whole heartedly. That old steal isn't growing weaker.
You probably have the finest steel ever smelted in your colt. A bunch of Ww2 surplus (especially warships) were being scrapped and smelted thruout the 70s. I wouldn't part with any 60s or 70s colt or Smith revolver. You got a modern heirloom quality tool that will last generations. Ain't no mim parts or communist China sourced metals in them. Top it off you've probably got a chunk of metal from a machine that helped win ww2. Cheers
Great informative video! I agree, I got two non +P guns, model 10-5 and 36-no dash. Both are snubbies. Don’t see why you couldn’t load +P’s for a defensive load only, especially the model 10.
Agree with Commander. M10's are ok for +Ps in carry. My 10-5 has hundreds thru it no issue. Pre model # models could be an issue made in 40's and 50's. Shoot regular rounds and few +Ps and carry for duty or CCW.
The blued revolver has a steel frame and the silver is Aluminum alloy that is the reason for the size difference in the frame that you noted. You also made it clear that one gun was steel and the other was aluminum alloy. Overall it was a good video review.
I totally agree with your position - shoot the inexpensive stuff at the range and just enough +P to see where it shoots. Most folks involved in a gunfight claim they didn't notice recoil, they were too busy keeping their front sight on target.
I have a 1980's 38 special model 10 and I love it. Now I shoot 38 special Plus P ammo in it from time to time with no issue. It has 38 special on the barrel but I practice with 38 special in it but keep it loaded with 38 special plus p . Plus p is only slightly more pop.
Thanks for this. I have a Ruger LCR .38 It is rated for +P ammo, it weighs almost nothing, some steel, some polymer, some aluminum. I also have an old Colt Detective Special in .38 It does not have a +P designation.. but that thing is ALL steel. Very heavy for it's size... I have not shot +P in it but I find it hard to imagine that it could not handle it. It would certainly be more comfortable than the Ruger with heavy loads.
My buddy and I were re-loading 38 and went thru 3 books Lyman, Lee and Hornady and the loads were all over the place, max loads of powder were totally different in all 3 books.........which one do you believe........I think you are 100% correct........my wife and I are trying to figure out how to post pictures of mine on the S&W channel.......we aren't great with computers ..........lol, I am an old SOB ).... 64yo.....lol
Interesting.apparently if the people who are in the industry don't seem to know nobody does. .go with your guy feeling on ammo & everything else in life for that matter.tha internet can be helpful for ideas & is entertaining but more misinformation than information by far. Your common sense ,instincts aka but feeling is best. Ps don't feel bad about not knowing everything about computers. Im50 12-20-19 & neither do I. Lucky us.know enough to get by. Good day.Burke .NC,US
I have a model 36 and I love it. The only thing I don't like about it is the accuracy, I can hardly hit a thing at a distance...guess it's just for "close and dirty"
Thanks a ton for this review 🙏 🙌 I own a snubby rossi interarms 38 special model 685 that I normally shoot Norma 158 grain fmj, 968 FPS, 329 FT-LBS and they shoot great, and they are accurate to a T, slams any target. I was apprehensive about using plus p ammo out of it but I'm sure or positive if it can handle those rounds by Norma that I normally shoot then I'm certain it can manage the Remington 125 grain semi full metal jacket hollow points that are plus p rated. The plus p Remington rounds are older but in great condition, just sat in the box, inside of a filing cabinet for about 23 year's 😒🙄🤯 Edit plus p works fine out of my gun🤘🤘🤘💯😎
out of a snubby even some plus p loads don't expand. Fed used to make a soft lead nylon coated 125 gr called nyclad in std pressure. Little short in penetration but expanded well, however some have given up the hope of expansion and use wadcutters which wont expand but will penetrate well.
All Steel Model 36 is made out of the exact same materials whether is + P rated or not +P rated. Reason the older guns were not plus P rated, it's because there was no + P ammo at the time. All steel frame model 36 and stainless steel Model 36 firearms are capable of handling plus P 38 Special. Which is only Sammy regulated up to 20,000 lb. B Model 36 was so intrinsically strong, especially considering it had no Barrel stretching inside the frame, between the frame and the cylinder, that they easily stretch the frame a little bit and loaded 357 Magnum into that gun then called it a Model 60. People were already putting really hot 38 loads through the steel frame model 36. Be particular rating that makes a gun rated for plus p is already built into the Model 36 from at least the 1950s if not earlier. The only reason they had to rate other versions of the Model 36 4 + p is because they were making some with aluminum frames and Scandium and unobtanium, and other bullshit. And then you had people in the 1980s making a few Firearms with titanium frames. They were super light. But they didn't realize it titanium is extremely soft when it's not hot. It was an exercise in utter futility. Of course that's silver gun has what looks like a heavier frame, it's not even steal. It's aluminum, it has to be thicker. Quit green apples oranges. The weakest spot on that frame is the top strap just above the front of the cylinder. That and the top strap at the rear of the cylinder is the two places those guns fail when the cylinder comes apart. The Model 36 is as strong as you can get even compared to today's firearms. It's just uncomfortable to shoot because even in steel it's pretty light firearm. I run across people who argue these points till they're blue in the face thinking they know something about firearms. 1895 the nickel steel that was used to build the first Firearms to fire smokeless ammo, made by Marlin in their 3030 the tooling and metal work does the job. And the cowboy action loads are ridiculous. They should be shooting the same load that they would shoot if they were in an actual encounter. Cosopt ask cowboy action loads are a bunch of crap.
Still a very relevant .38 Special and general revolver handgun discussion today. Though I often carry my S&W 637 or Ruger .357 LCR as EDC +P, I also carry my Colt Detective Special or my S&W Combat Masterpiece (4”) with standard .38 Special. Thanks, sir!
If your including a S&W aluminum J frame thats decades old ,or a old Colt Agent Aluminum ,you better reconsider ,I've seen both loose the top strap from Plus P loads.
Actually I was told numerous times by Smith & Wesson that they DO NOT recommend shooting +P ammo from any of their guns made prior to 1997. I have a 640 Centennial that I purchased brand new in 1991. I sent it in to Smith & Wesson just to get looked at. I’ve had no issues whatsoever with the gun. They are sending it back to me claiming that the cylinder needs to be replaced due to expanded chambers. They said that + P ammunition most likely caused the chamber damage.
That was a wonderful video with wonderful information and knowledge i really enjoyed it and learned alot about ammo thanks for the great video and information.
Except for Underwood and Buffalo Bore, I think most .38 +P brands these days are very watered down. They seem more reliant on bullet design than pure power. Except for the fore mentioned brands, i have no concerns at all shooting modern +Ps in any steel frame .38spl revolver.
I only take exception to one thing that you said, that is comparing like bullet weights and similar velocities as being the same. That is not necessarily true. You have use pressures in those rounds, not just weight and velocity. The powders used, have a major impact on pressures as some have slower or faster burn rates which effect pressures.
I have a snub nose.357 mag but I only shoot both practice and carry .38+p ammo so I ALWAYS have “peace of mind” as to the robustness and strength of my firearm. I recommend doing the same trick.
I shoot +p ammunition out of my model 10 without any issues I don’t make it a regular thing , its what load it with when its being carried for self defense or loaded and set in the night stand for home defense
Mr. Drake I’ve too have been going nuts over this issue. I have a model 10-8 smith & Wesson 38 special. I inquired through smith & Wesson about this and said no plus p. The reason being the plus p ammo was made with ball powder, and 38 special was made with flake powder. This probably cause down the road damage to the forcing cone. My model 10 does have 4 inch heavy barrel.like to hear your thoughts! Thank mike
There was an ammo company called "Super Vel" in the 1970s. Bought a box and tried a couple in my Colt Trooper Mk.3 and S&W Model 19 (2,5 bbl.). Had to use a cleaning rod and hammer to knock the spent shell casings out of the cylinders of both. I was not the only one and that company went out of business very quickly.....Never heard of that happening in today's world of +Ps etc.
This is the age old conundrum. Buy a gun and they try to make it into something else...when the something else already exists and costs about the same. Why buy a fine old .38 revolver when you can buy a fine old .357? I tend to go the other way. My favorite .38 loads are 148 gr. wadcutters with 2.5 gr Titegroup or Bullseye powder. I handload them for little more than the cost of good .22 ammunition. For my J frame M642 .38 (+P rated) I carry Buffalo Bore 158 gr. +P loads, but I do not fire a steady diet of them. Will the guns blow up with +P loads? NO! Will they wear out faster? Get end shake faster? Get out of time faster? Wear out parts and springs faster? YES! Why would you do that to a classic, fine old revolver? It is just as enjoyable to shoot with light loads. .38 Special is a wonderful and accurate cartridge which is a virtue unto itself. The .357 Magnum is available and can also shoot .38 specials if that is what you want. Same with .44 Special and .45 Colt. Both are great cartridges, but neither is a .44 Magnum. I like to own all of them.
I just read an article where federal agents that carried s&w m36's used the +p+ treasury load in them. Smith took the warranty off their firearms. But no weapons blew up. Maybe wore out faster.
I have an aluminum alloy Model 38 made early 1980's. I saw evidence online that a lot of aluminum alloy 38's made by SW developed cracks in the frame that could only be seen by taking off the side plate. Isn't this an excessive pressure problem? I liked your presentation but I would not want to take the chance of my alloy 38 special cracking and send bits of flying aluminum into my face or body. I would never take that chance just to have a hotter round for defense. Additionally I called SW tech support about shooting +P in my gun and they said the gun is not rated or tested for +P ammo.
I have one of the Taurus "Ultra-Lite" 38 special snub-nose revolvers. It's an aluminum alloy frame with stainless steel barrel and cylinder. I thought about running plus P hollow-point rounds for edc, because the standard pressure rounds are not expanding at all. Well, I didn't want to have this thing break on me at a critical self defense moment, so I tested it with some .357 magnum loads. It didn't break.
That Taurus 38 spl will or should not chamber a .357 magnum shell. The maximum SAMMI test pressures for a 38 spl is around 18,500 psi while the +P 38 spl is around 21,000 psi. Now that .357 magnum pressures are 35,500 - 36,000 psi and the shell length is almost 1/8" longer than a 38 spl shell. If your 38 spl revolver will chamber a .357 magnum, get it checked and do not use magnum ammo in it less you blow your gun up.
@@denisdegamon8224 I already knew all of this but I proved it wrong. I had to shave down the .357 bullet and the top of the case to fit it in my Taurus. I fired several rounds and it did not break. I now carry it with 4 .38 sp hollow-points and one .357. I figure as long as it ends the bad guy, I don't care if it breaks. It's a $200 gun.
A good review on the differences between standard and +P rated revolvers. I will listen again with regard to the burn-rate/expansion ratio aspects. Years ago, when Super Vel 1st came out, it was a paradigm shift change in the performance of handgun ammunition. Now that it's being manufactured again I am anxious to try it out to see how it compares to the 1970's loadings in .38 Special and .44 Magnum! When looking at current day +P comparables...I have just tested (but not chronographed yet) the Underwood 158gr.hardcast +P semi-wadcutter in a light weight S&W snub-nosed revolver that is +P rated and can tell you that the experience was memorable! My first thought was how did I get a .357 Magnum round to fit in a .38 Special cylinder! Actually, that was my 2nd thought...my first thought was 'what the hell just happened'? The target was a piece of 4 x 6 pressure treated pine and the projectile sailed right through it disappeared into the ground. The second shot (a few minutes later) was shot into the side of the block at an angle to increase the travel path into the block and the bullet almost exited in spite of that! The penetration depth was ~ 7+ inches. I would feel much better shooting that round out of an SP101 Ruger or 357 Magnum revolver...if I was shooting it on a regular basis. I would be interested to hear any feedback you all have regarding the new Super Vel or the Underwood+P 158gr. Hardcast loadings... Thanks for your time and thoughts on this in advance.
I have a M36 made in the early 60's, I like it for an EDC but the hammer spur is not good for pocket carry. I can't bring myself to bob the hammer, I need to get a 642. Thanks for the video.
One notes the 'ridge' on the since 1980 revolvers combine that ridge with the 'hilary hole'. I personally find it curious. One also notes Smith & Wesson also published a statement that 'model numbered' revolvers (all S&W revolvers since 1957 or so) are safe with +p loads. This was announced prior to the latest sale, so I cannot be sure.
Craig Benz As a matter of going to the range and practice or plinking I don’t recommend it. But if I’m going to carry this fire arm as I sometimes do it’s going to have plus P Ammo in it there’s no reason not to.
The point is they are rated for it. Just because +p isn't stamped on the barrel does not mean it is not rated for p. Back in the day they shot hotter loads than +p today.
Very well done video. I have a Model 14(basically a 6" Model 10) from the late '60s that I was wondering would be safe if I had to run some +P through it. I'd love to have a Model 36 to bring out every now and then. That said, while I typically keep autoloaders on hand for defensive use if I need to carry a snub-nosed revolver I'm going to reach for my Ruger SP101 and step up to .357 Magnum. I'm able to handle the recoil.
I have an older Smith and wesson model 12, made of aluminum alloy. I brought it used so I had to look up that you should never use +p ammo in it. I put some .38 special ammo in it with 158 grain , it did not blow up my gun , but when I tried to eject my rounds after firing. 3 rounds went out with no problem , but the other expanded in the cylinder. I had a hard time taking them out. But it did not damage the workability of my gun, thank God. But I now use nothing higher then 130 grain.
Hello' My J - frame according to serial Number! model 36 D-19 / serial number beginning with 23......shows Manufacture Date between 1952- 1953. I've confirmed 300 rounds. Of +P ammo until I realized someone at the range pointed out '' If the frame Inside by the yoke Is not marked with +P! I should not use +P rounds. with that said I still shoot +P rounds with no ongoing Issues. Because It's an Old revolver passed on by My Granpa I now shoot the revolver about every two to three years with +P ammo. I also use It as my carry from time to time. Thank you for all the Info you provided! with newer ammo today that was not available when I was 17 years of age, now 63 years of age' I still shoot Remington ammo +P 148gr or 125gr and PMC bronze 130 gr. This Is a wonderful weapon and with carry permit makes It even a better weapon.
I recently bought a Colt Police Positive chambered in calibre .38 special, with a 6 inch barrel, that, according to the serial number was manufactured in 1921... by my limited experience, but keen eye, it appears to have never been fired... it is a beautiful gun, but I carry it for self defense... I have never fired the gun myself (yet), and have a box of Winchester +P, that I would only use as SD ammo... the rest I have is standard pressure rated GECO hollow points, and some semi-wad cutters for range practice... it is a beautiful gun, and I would hate ruining it... am I safe, for SD purposes at least? I actually doubt I will ever need to use it for SD, but I live in a somewhat sketchy part of town, and carry it now, religiously... I am kinda proud to be in possession of a 102 year old virgin... I want her to be my best friend, if ya know what I mean....
My philosophy on +P is that my snubby was my Dad’s (he passed away in 2016) and I want to keep this Colt det’ spec’ as long as I can because I loved him. I’ll use .357 or 38 +P in my 4” S&W 686 for in home protection and save my snubby for posterity. Tom KC3QAC
I got a brand new Taurus 856 model in .38 Special. The owners manual says it can't fire Plus P ammo, but Taurus's website says it can. I'm a little confused. Which one is true?
Here's my take on this. A 1970 Speer loading manual shows max loads for .38 Spcl the same as a +p load in the latest Speer manual. So we always had the opportunity to load +p back in the day.
Yup and i hot loaded. So since then I have aged so not quick to experiment.😊
Before +P my neighbor shot at two guys with a 1920s H&R 32 S&W that had broken in on him. One was hit in the chin and paralyzed for life when the projectile settled in his neck, and the other guy ran. I think my question is have criminals skin really gotten that much tougher over the years or is all this high powered stuff just an excuse for more expensive toys In the name of protection.?
The +P is more powerful, but it does make shooting a 38 a bit more snappy. Watch Paul Harrell's video on it, you can clearly tell shooting the +P rapidly would be a bit more of a problem, and he is an amazing shooter, put it in the average shooter's hands and it would be even tougher.
@@joebauers3746 So the old 32 and 38 S&W cartridges were just fine for self defense. It's all just a racket. I have handled firearms since 1970 don't need Paul or anyone else.
Stopping power. Big and or faster less accuracy required.
@@1sinister80 lol 😂 right
@@1sinister80 Uh, accuracy is always required. A hit with a .32 is a lot more stopping power than a miss with a .44.
One of the smarter people on UA-cam. Nice to see someone actually take their time to explain the foundations of their opinions especially when it revolves around actual factual evidence. Well done sir and even 4 years later, thank you for your time!!!
I may be a child at heart, but the phrase "shooting hot loads" won't ever not make me giggle
When the use of microfusion (MIM) in the manufacture of firearms was generally extended by weapon manufacturers since the early 1970s, and light aluminum alloy frames became popular, they observed that although They were construction techniques that managed to make firearms cheaper and reduce production times. They had certain material weaknesses that caused some parts to suffer premature fractures, cracks and wear.
As it still had to spend a lot of time improving the MIM alloys and metallurgical techniques, the "gun industry lobby" managed to make a "high handed act" and in 1972 the Permanent International Commission on Firearms Testing and the SAAMI, which is who internationally establishes the approvals for cartridges, reduced the maximum pressure values that these ammunition were capable of developing.
In fact, the standard of the previous ammunition was higher to the point of being practically what is known today as "+P" (depending on the manufacturer's values) that were created for the needs of users, such as law enforcement, security professionals, armed forces, etc., who needed "full power" ammunition but with the tagline of not recommending at all the use of "+P" ammunition to avoid responsibilities in the after-sale for the deterioration of the weapons in their sales civilians under warranty.
There are now many ammunitions with very powerful general purpose loads for use with any weapon thanks to metallurgical improvements and MIM process engineering by manufacturers (some more than others, as always).
The fact is that the recurring question always arises whether a classic model from the "PRE-MIM" era (produced with classic forging and machining techniques) can regularly use "+P" ammunition.
To answer this, it must be taken into account that for each of the ammunition manufacturers "+P" does not mean "exactly the same" and that in general, many of those ammunition are very close to the previous pressure values for that cartridge. , and for which those weapons were designed.
If you get one of those weapons in almost unused condition since many people almost never shoot their weapons and end up sleeping in a nightstand drawer for years, they are inherited, and if they exist and sometimes appear on the market, it could be used "+P" ammunition with values close to those of the original standard without major concerns (do not forget that "+P" is not always the same for each manufacturer, and that is why no one undertakes to categorically say if that type of ammunition can be used in previous weapons due to the risk of a lawsuit from civilians).
If we are talking about weapons whose use and history is unknown, we do not know the stress accumulated by the weapon and which generally cannot be observed with the naked eye, out of prudence I would not use "+P".
If we are also talking about original models of a certain historical value for which it may even be difficult to obtain a replacement, we must be cautious and in addition to shooting it very sporadically, use the softest loads available for that cartridge.
In short, use "+P" ammunition that most closely matches the original standard values of the "pre-mim" era and be aware of the condition of your weapon.
Regards!
Thank you so much I just bought a 1963 Colt detective special 38 glad to hear +p will be ok your awesome.
it can not handle +P'as as a seady diet.....mine broke parts twice....
Don't do it. Colts were prone to getting out of time with standard pressures.
Very informative video. I carry an older Taurus Model 85 38 special steel framed 3" for edc that was made in 1992. I've never really been comfortable shooting too much +p ammo in it but I always figured that the steel frame could handle it. I especially liked how you pointed out the different frame enhancements and reinforcements on the S&W j-frame aluminum alloy frame. I've wondered how they could make an aluminum frame revolver that was stronger than a steel frame and could be rated for +P ammo. Thank you for the info.
Excellent video! I have a S&W model 60 that I bought in 1985 and fired plenty of +P to know it can withstand the pressure. Like you, I typically use the inexpensive Magtech 38 Special rounds at the range.
For the past 45 years my m36 no dash has had nothing but +P and home loads that nudge slower 357mag territory. It’s likely averaged 15 rounds a month in that time frame.
My m60 no dash has had around 600 rounds of +P over the past 3 years.
They both lock up as tight as my wife’s new m638.
The family member and original owner of my M36 has been loading at home since the 1950s. He told me the 38Special load specs of old are every bit as hot as modern +P loadings.
I don’t sweat the +P fear.
When I entered law enforcement in 1982 I carried the S&W Mal 10 with the lighter, tapered bbl. The new thing was we carried the .38 spl 158 gr LSWCHP + P load, known now as the FBI load. At that time your typical load of ammo was 18 rounds. Some carried it in loops, some in dump boxes and young whippersnappers like me, speed loaders. I was teased for carrying (gasp) a third speed loader, giving me 27 rounds. I figured if the bad guy was betting on me having 18 rounds and then rushing me he was going to retreat it. We also shot the +P loads in our off duty/ detective Chiefs special pistols. New tests show it doesn’t expand in the snub nose. I e since gone to the Remington 110 grain SJHP LOAD, hoping the lighter non + P round will expand. If anyone has done tests with this round, please let me know. I also use it in my S&W M&P pre modal 10. I have also carried my Chief Special loaded with the 148 grain wadcutter round as I understand it performs well out of the 2” bbl. The Chief of my small hometown PD carried wadcutter in his Modal 10 back in the 1960s. He said it was better than the then common 158 grain LRN cartridge. I think he was right. He did shoot a burglar several years later and the wadcutter rounds stopped him. The next morning I walked to school right by the spot and saw the blood on the pavement.
I just bought some Remington plus p fbi type ammo. That lead hollow point semi wadcutter is one nasty bullet. I think it is all you need for everyday carry. If bigger trouble is brewing I have much bigger options.
I have a nickel plated old model 10 S&W from 1957 that fires plus p like a champ. Never had a prob with the plus p. Bravo
What was the reason for nickel plating?
@@jenniferbeatty7545 Nickel plating is a corrosion inhibiting finish that slows rust and makes things shiny,and pretty.The same care given to a blued gun should be administered to a nickel plated gun,however.
Detroit PD use to issue a 5in NickelPlated 38 Spec. @@jenniferbeatty7545
my opinion is you are 100% correct. i would trust the metal in the 50's through the 70's more than the newer ones.just hard to beat a model 36 Smith.
I thought that at first while fretting over this topic but I dont let that faze me any longer so long as the arm is from Colt or S&W. I'm pretty confident their metallurgy was very good around the turn of the century and quite competent before that. If you think about it Elmer Keith was experimenting with custom hot 38special in the late 20s early 30s in a 38special gun manufactured around then. He ended up birthing 357mag out of a 38 special. Run of the mill 1930s factory 357 mag is about 200-300 fps hotter then than the big name box stuff you get at the store today according to the old timers that loaded at home since the 1950s.
38 Special+p wasnt a thing till the 1970s. You've got a few interesting things that happened then. Sue they neighbor became rampant in the USA and in the arms industry? Ammunition loading scales were changes from one system to another. From what all the old home loaders have told me all ammo loading was neutered. Especially in dimensions that had been around the longest. Theres alot of legal liability when your in the business of manufacturing arms and ammo.
Nowdays I dont fret over what I stuff inside any of my wheelies when it comes to big name store bought ammo.
The boutique makers like Buffalo Bore that are considered so hot? They're essentially loading stuff like grandpa used before the 1970s neutering.
Thank you for this informative video regarding the differences of ammo for 38 Special. It helped me greatly and I appreciate the time you took to explain the differences for +P. When I received the ammunition in the mail I was very concerned with the noted “full size handgun” notation.
I inherited both a 36 no dash and a 10-6. I have shot minimal +p out of both with no issues but I keep them both loaded with +p for self defense. I want 5 and 6 rounds of the best bang for my buck when its life or death and I'm positive they can both handle it.
Great video I now have a older model 36 with a 3 inch barrel, made in the early 80s I was avoiding plus p ammo but now I'll shoot some. And load it for personal protection.
When I started my career in ‘68 we were issued standard pressure 158 grain lead round nose rounds. Super Vel had a round that was as hot or hotter than anything around, but we were restricted to issued ammo and our sergeants made sure we were carrying department ammo. A wife, kids & a mortgage helped ensure I kept department rounds in my issued revolver.
You did well and i agree with your results .. You covered it very well going from standard .38 spl loading to the plus + .. And you touched on pressures of both that is true , going from standard pressure of 17,000 to 18,500 or even 19,000 i read in Lyman's fine reloading manual listed for plus + loads and std loads ..
Two things jump out to me , first one is using the same powder but increasing the load 3/10 of one grain or 0.003 to make it a plus + load.. Second thing that jumped out was the increase of velocity of 47 fps .. wow now is that really worth it what the little fps you gain ?
If one could pick up 100 fps more yes that's a gain and a lot of gain in fps ..Now then we would be talking plus + that would make a difference ..
3/10 of a grain of the powder is nothing to speak of and of course it depends on the burning rate of the powder but just to gain 47 fps for what ?
I ask myself why and what difference is 47 fps going to make on target ? This is assuming it's a violent attack on my life and i have to stop the threat .. I would have to say with all the target material i have fired both loads into for years i see no difference in bullet performance ..
True you squeeze the bottle a little tighter you get a couple more drops out of it , but is a couple more drops enough to really help you ?? But it sells more firearms as Plus + is more powerful and that's all you need to know , just don't worry about the rest of it because it does not matter ..
Thanks for the video, I still have my old 1980's SW model 60 and never had a problem with +P, but it great to know!
Shoot 'regular' ammo at the range. At the end of your session you may want to shoot some plus P so you'll be familiar with that particular rounds recoil. It is a bit more than other ammo's recoil. Get to know the round you'll be using to save you're life.
Awesome! I have been wondering about that. I have a S&W Model 60 no dash 38 spl and was told not to shoot +P ammo on it. I am going to load up and give it a try! Thanks!!
I've always shot standard pressure out of my 38 specials, but +Ps in the night stand. I do shoot +P for the last cylinder at the range and over 40 years I haven't ruined any of my pistols.
Hello from Croatia! I have Colt detective (3rd gen.), And I was shoot a few rounds of 38+P ammo. Nothing spectacular was happend. Maybe a litlle bigger BOOM 😀
I like Croatia. Beautiful
@@jenniferbeatty7545 thank you sir!
Hey Vladimir you Croatians build some really quality firearms over there! I have a few good work from you guys!
I wanted a Colt like yours but bought a S&W Model 60 instead. You don’t need a 38 + P. Just use the regular 38, a very good defensive round. I wish Croatia won in 2018.
I agree 100% with everything you said. Alot of people are scared to death of plus p ammo..they think its going to turn the revolver into a hand grenade and that's simply not true. Todays plus p is not that big of a deal. I have shot some 60s era standard ammo and it was way hotter than any of todays plus p with the exception of buffalo bore. Im not saying to go firing hundreds of plus p in a non rated gun but a few here and there at the range and carrying them for self defense is not a problem. As long as the revolver is in decent condition your good to go.
I looked at the proof data that SAAMI puts out and they say to use the +P proofing standard for ALL .38 Special firearms.
Ive read the same 38 special had been downgraded over the years
@@jsmunitions1471 Read a contributor recently who seemed knowledgeable & advised not to use plus-Ps if the revolver was old enough to have a pinned bbl. .Don't recall his name.
@@cleondubois1270 Yea, the proofing info I mentioned from SAAMI is for modern .38 Special revolvers. They're required to be proofed for +P loads regardless of barrel markings.
That said, standard for proofing loads is 20% above max pressure for a given cartridge. Max pressure for .38 Special vs. .38 Special +P is a 1,500 PSI difference. Would +P loads in something like a S&W 10-6 with a pinned barrel be hard on the gun? For sure. Increased wear and tear on parts would be expected in this case. However, would it be enough pressure to cause a catastrophic failure? Probably not. People were firing +P ammo in these guns long before the actual +P rating came about.
I carry a Smith & Wesson 637 J frame. The cylinder and barrel are stainless steel. Rest of it is aluminum and its +P rated right on the barrel. My carry ammo is Speer Gold Dot 135 grain +P short barrel hollow points. At the range for practice I use a mixture of Remington and Federal 130 grain FMJ standard target loads. The point I am trying to make here is I cannot feel ANY difference whatsoever in felt recoil , muzzle flip, or ability to get back on target amongst the three different loads. They all feel exactly the same to me. IMHO the +P designation is more hype then reality. They can squeeze a bit more out of your pocket by slapping the +P designation on the box while not giving you anything noticeable in return. Just my 2 cents.
Before 38 Special ammo was rated +P, standard pressure for that round was MORE than today's +P. That was the industry standard. That standard was lowered by the industry. The +P rating is a marketing term. I have a Colt Cobra, my EDC. It was made in 1954. My carry ammo is Remington Golden Saber +P.
B I N G O !!! Remington Golden Saber are great cartridges in any caliber.
Makes complete sense!
The Golden Saber is a terrific load; I have lot # that gets 920 f.p.s. from my 1975 agent. Be aware, however, that pre-1968 Colt D Frames had .354 caliber barrels. They were not designed for jacketed bullets. I know of a case where a bullet.got lodged in the barrel of a Detective Special and a couple more bullets lodged behind it before it blew.
Yeah I don't think so. My uncle was a cop back in the 70's. The garbage ammo back then I could shoot one handed with my nails done. I can't do that with today's +p ammo.
@@veganlifestyleloveanimals1744 thats a freaking awesome way to put it I'm dieing your absolutely correct tho
Excellent video. I have a model 60 38 special and was going to sell it and buy a 38 special plus p now I'm not. Thanks for the clarity and you knowledge.
Absolutely agree. I have a 1977 Colt Cobra and the Colt specs in the manual back then are factory rated at pressures higher than today's +P ammo. Standard ammo for range and +P for EDC.
One of the best discussions on an important and relevant topic thank you
All good information and I agree with your opinions. I have been shooting and reloading for over 50 years and my favorite cartridge is the 38/357. My grandfather served in the NYPD for 35 years retiring in 1971 and carried a nickel plated 5" M10 in 38 Special. I inherited that M10 and along with many boxes of 158gr 38 Special ammo and liked it so much I purchased a 4" stainless M64 in the 80's used, also an NYPD (NY1) marked revolver. I also have a 642 for CCW. What I have found is that the older 38 Special ammo performs very close to the +P loads of today. The older ammo I have fried in the M64 is right there in velocity with modern +P loadings. Some of the boxes I have are also have early markings of +P in a circle, all are Winchester. Bottom line is that IMHO vintage loadings of 38 Special were much hotter than those of today and those revolvers stood up to the pressures no problem. Would I feed a steady diet to them of +P ? No, it will increase wear and that old M10 has been worked over by the armorers a lot and is a little loose anyhow but my 1994 642 is NOT marked +P but does have the newer magnum frame. Because it is one of my CCW firearms it does get fed a steady diet of +P ammo including my personal 125gr handloads, I practice with what I carry and I have put multiple thousands of +P rounds thru it without harm.
One of the best videos i have seen. if my b38 special with regular hollow points dosent stop them i will throw the empty weapon at them and run like hell.
Throwing the gun worked even better against Superman. He had to duck it.
@@nathanlambshead4778 I always wondered why Superman took 6 rounds in the chest with his hands on his hips, then ducked when the empty gun was thrown at him... 😉
Works best in the movies
Thanks for the giggle, mate.
So a 1976 mint Colt Cobra 38 Special Snub Nose can handle a Plus P Round? Yes, seems to be the answer you give and for that I say thanks because I agree with you whole heartedly. That old steal isn't growing weaker.
You probably have the finest steel ever smelted in your colt. A bunch of Ww2 surplus (especially warships) were being scrapped and smelted thruout the 70s. I wouldn't part with any 60s or 70s colt or Smith revolver. You got a modern heirloom quality tool that will last generations. Ain't no mim parts or communist China sourced metals in them. Top it off you've probably got a chunk of metal from a machine that helped win ww2. Cheers
Good broad discussion regarding different .38 Spl revolver types focused on the snub nose including ammunition varieties. Thank You.
Great informative video! I agree, I got two non +P guns, model 10-5 and 36-no dash. Both are snubbies. Don’t see why you couldn’t load +P’s for a defensive load only, especially the model 10.
The model 10 can shoot plus P just fine
Agree with Commander. M10's are ok for +Ps in carry. My 10-5 has hundreds thru it no issue. Pre model # models could be an issue made in 40's and 50's. Shoot regular rounds and few +Ps and carry for duty or CCW.
The blued revolver has a steel frame and the silver is Aluminum alloy that is the reason for the size difference in the frame that you noted. You also made it clear that one gun was steel and the other was aluminum alloy. Overall it was a good video review.
I totally agree with your position - shoot the inexpensive stuff at the range and just enough +P to see where it shoots. Most folks involved in a gunfight claim they didn't notice recoil, they were too busy keeping their front sight on target.
I have a 1980's 38 special model 10 and I love it. Now I shoot 38 special Plus P ammo in it from time to time with no issue. It has 38 special on the barrel but I practice with 38 special in it but keep it loaded with 38 special plus p . Plus p is only slightly more pop.
One more thing to consider is today's metallurgy the metals are made stronger than past years
Thanks for this. I have a Ruger LCR .38 It is rated for +P ammo, it weighs almost nothing, some steel, some polymer, some aluminum. I also have an old Colt Detective Special in .38 It does not have a +P designation.. but that thing is ALL steel. Very heavy for it's size... I have not shot +P in it but I find it hard to imagine that it could not handle it. It would certainly be more comfortable than the Ruger with heavy loads.
Well done video. Very informative. I shoot mostly 38 special wad cutters for practice.
My buddy and I were re-loading 38 and went thru 3 books Lyman, Lee and Hornady and the loads were all over the place, max loads of powder were totally different in all 3 books.........which one do you believe........I think you are 100% correct........my wife and I are trying to figure out how to post pictures of mine on the S&W channel.......we aren't great with computers ..........lol, I am an old SOB ).... 64yo.....lol
Interesting.apparently if the people who are in the industry don't seem to know nobody does. .go with your guy feeling on ammo & everything else in life for that matter.tha internet can be helpful for ideas & is entertaining but more misinformation than information by far. Your common sense ,instincts aka but feeling is best. Ps don't feel bad about not knowing everything about computers. Im50 12-20-19 & neither do I. Lucky us.know enough to get by.
Good day.Burke .NC,US
I have a model 36 and I love it. The only thing I don't like about it is the accuracy, I can hardly hit a thing at a distance...guess it's just for "close and dirty"
Thanks a ton for this review 🙏 🙌
I own a snubby rossi interarms 38 special model 685 that I normally shoot Norma 158 grain fmj, 968 FPS, 329 FT-LBS and they shoot great, and they are accurate to a T, slams any target. I was apprehensive about using plus p ammo out of it but I'm sure or positive if it can handle those rounds by Norma that I normally shoot then I'm certain it can manage the Remington 125 grain semi full metal jacket hollow points that are plus p rated. The plus p Remington rounds are older but in great condition, just sat in the box, inside of a filing cabinet for about 23 year's 😒🙄🤯
Edit plus p works fine out of my gun🤘🤘🤘💯😎
out of a snubby even some plus p loads don't expand. Fed used to make a soft lead nylon coated 125 gr called nyclad in std pressure. Little short in penetration but expanded well, however some have given up the hope of expansion and use wadcutters which wont expand but will penetrate well.
I had a chiefs special stolen. now every time i see one i cry.
That's sad and it happened to a friend of mine and it just broke her heart as she just loved the gun and could fire it so well ..
I know how you feel!
Thank you for the educational video, I learned a lot in 20 minutes.
All Steel Model 36 is made out of the exact same materials whether is + P rated or not +P rated. Reason the older guns were not plus P rated, it's because there was no + P ammo at the time. All steel frame model 36 and stainless steel Model 36 firearms are capable of handling plus P 38 Special. Which is only Sammy regulated up to 20,000 lb. B Model 36 was so intrinsically strong, especially considering it had no Barrel stretching inside the frame, between the frame and the cylinder, that they easily stretch the frame a little bit and loaded 357 Magnum into that gun then called it a Model 60. People were already putting really hot 38 loads through the steel frame model 36. Be particular rating that makes a gun rated for plus p is already built into the Model 36 from at least the 1950s if not earlier. The only reason they had to rate other versions of the Model 36 4 + p is because they were making some with aluminum frames and Scandium and unobtanium, and other bullshit. And then you had people in the 1980s making a few Firearms with titanium frames. They were super light. But they didn't realize it titanium is extremely soft when it's not hot. It was an exercise in utter futility.
Of course that's silver gun has what looks like a heavier frame, it's not even steal. It's aluminum, it has to be thicker. Quit green apples oranges. The weakest spot on that frame is the top strap just above the front of the cylinder. That and the top strap at the rear of the cylinder is the two places those guns fail when the cylinder comes apart.
The Model 36 is as strong as you can get even compared to today's firearms. It's just uncomfortable to shoot because even in steel it's pretty light firearm.
I run across people who argue these points till they're blue in the face thinking they know something about firearms.
1895 the nickel steel that was used to build the first Firearms to fire smokeless ammo, made by Marlin in their 3030 the tooling and metal work does the job.
And the cowboy action loads are ridiculous. They should be shooting the same load that they would shoot if they were in an actual encounter. Cosopt ask cowboy action loads are a bunch of crap.
Totally agree with you completely, the most you may do is damage the forcing cone.
Still a very relevant .38 Special and general revolver handgun discussion today. Though I often carry my S&W 637 or Ruger .357 LCR as EDC +P, I also carry my Colt Detective Special or my S&W Combat Masterpiece (4”) with standard .38 Special. Thanks, sir!
If your including a S&W aluminum J frame thats decades old ,or a old Colt Agent Aluminum ,you better reconsider ,I've seen both loose the top strap from Plus P loads.
SMITH AND WESSON SAYS THAT YOU CAN SHOOT+P IF YOUR REVOLVER WAS MADE AFTER 1957. LATER.
Richard Ziemies Your right
Thank you
Actually I was told numerous times by Smith & Wesson that they DO NOT recommend shooting +P ammo from any of their guns made prior to 1997. I have a 640 Centennial that I purchased brand new in 1991. I sent it in to Smith & Wesson just to get looked at. I’ve had no issues whatsoever with the gun. They are sending it back to me claiming that the cylinder needs to be replaced due to expanded chambers. They said that + P ammunition most likely caused the chamber damage.
except for air weight ....
My FFL, a retired U.S. Marines officer, told me if your revolver is made of steel then you can shoot +P ammo.
You need to practice with your carry ammo,at least a few cylinders each month so you know what your gun will do if a confrontation occurs.
Very informative!! Thanks , I'm going down the revolver road now . Waiting for my new trade in model 10 and 37 to get here.
That was a wonderful video with wonderful information and knowledge i really enjoyed it and learned alot about ammo thanks for the great video and information.
Except for Underwood and Buffalo Bore, I think most .38 +P brands these days are very watered down. They seem more reliant on bullet design than pure power. Except for the fore mentioned brands, i have no concerns at all shooting modern +Ps in any steel frame .38spl revolver.
Key words (steel framed ) .
I only take exception to one thing that you said, that is comparing like bullet weights and similar velocities as being the same. That is not necessarily true. You have use pressures in those rounds, not just weight and velocity.
The powders used, have a major impact on pressures as some have slower or faster burn rates which effect pressures.
Great overview on this age-old subject.
I have a snub nose.357 mag but I only shoot both practice and carry .38+p ammo so I ALWAYS have “peace of mind” as to the robustness and strength of my firearm. I recommend doing the same trick.
The booklets for both of my S&Ws 60-4s both claim that they can use +p ammo.
I don't think I ever have. But I suspose I could,if need be.🤔
It's okay as long as you don't run 1 or 2 hundred rounds at a time in your handgun. Make sure you retighten the screws afterwards.
I shoot +p ammunition out of my model 10 without any issues
I don’t make it a regular thing , its what load it with when its being carried for self defense or loaded and set in the night stand for home defense
Hey, I live there! I just bought a Taurus 38 there and also an NAA 22 Magnum! Great gun shop!
Always go for having the 'edge' in anything you do.
My 1967 Diamondback seems pretty solid, if it’s down to that’s my go-to gun, I’ve got bigger problems.
Mr. Drake I’ve too have been going nuts over this issue. I have a model 10-8 smith & Wesson 38 special. I inquired through smith & Wesson about this and said no plus p. The reason being the plus p ammo was made with ball powder, and 38 special was made with flake powder. This probably cause down the road damage to the forcing cone. My model 10 does have 4 inch heavy barrel.like to hear your thoughts! Thank mike
There was an ammo company called "Super Vel" in the 1970s. Bought a box and tried a couple in my Colt Trooper Mk.3 and S&W Model 19 (2,5 bbl.). Had to use a cleaning rod and hammer to knock the spent shell casings out of the cylinders of both. I was not the only one and that company went out of business very quickly.....Never heard of that happening in today's world of +Ps etc.
I shoot +P in my Taurus 856 UL. Haven't had any complaints.
That the aluminum frame one?
Jessa Case I believe so. I have the 856 but not the UL.
dead men utter no complaints?
This is the age old conundrum. Buy a gun and they try to make it into something else...when the something else already exists and costs about the same. Why buy a fine old .38 revolver when you can buy a fine old .357? I tend to go the other way. My favorite .38 loads are 148 gr. wadcutters with 2.5 gr Titegroup or Bullseye powder. I handload them for little more than the cost of good .22 ammunition. For my J frame M642 .38 (+P rated) I carry Buffalo Bore 158 gr. +P loads, but I do not fire a steady diet of them.
Will the guns blow up with +P loads? NO! Will they wear out faster? Get end shake faster? Get out of time faster? Wear out parts and springs faster? YES! Why would you do that to a classic, fine old revolver? It is just as enjoyable to shoot with light loads.
.38 Special is a wonderful and accurate cartridge which is a virtue unto itself. The .357 Magnum is available and can also shoot .38 specials if that is what you want. Same with .44 Special and .45 Colt. Both are great cartridges, but neither is a .44 Magnum. I like to own all of them.
Wow. Sure glad I stopped in here, cleared up misgivings I had about my snub .38 special. Mine goes back b4 75'.
🗣You've explained this so beautifully...💯
I just read an article where federal agents that carried s&w m36's used the +p+ treasury load in them. Smith took the warranty off their firearms. But no weapons blew up. Maybe wore out faster.
Yes, don't beat up your .38 Special with a +P round, just buy a .357 magnum, you
can shoot .38 Special ammo in it just fine.
I have an aluminum alloy Model 38 made early 1980's. I saw evidence online that a lot of aluminum alloy 38's made by SW developed cracks in the frame that could only be seen by taking off the side plate. Isn't this an excessive pressure problem? I liked your presentation but I would not want to take the chance of my alloy 38 special cracking and send bits of flying aluminum into my face or body. I would never take that chance just to have a hotter round for defense. Additionally I called SW tech support about shooting +P in my gun and they said the gun is not rated or tested for +P ammo.
I have one of the Taurus "Ultra-Lite" 38 special snub-nose revolvers. It's an aluminum alloy frame with stainless steel barrel and cylinder. I thought about running plus P hollow-point rounds for edc, because the standard pressure rounds are not expanding at all. Well, I didn't want to have this thing break on me at a critical self defense moment, so I tested it with some .357 magnum loads. It didn't break.
That Taurus 38 spl will or should not chamber a .357 magnum shell. The maximum SAMMI test pressures for a 38 spl is around 18,500 psi while the +P 38 spl is around 21,000 psi. Now that .357 magnum pressures are 35,500 - 36,000 psi and the shell length is almost 1/8" longer than a 38 spl shell.
If your 38 spl revolver will chamber a .357 magnum, get it checked and do not use magnum ammo in it less you blow your gun up.
@@denisdegamon8224 I already knew all of this but I proved it wrong. I had to shave down the .357 bullet and the top of the case to fit it in my Taurus. I fired several rounds and it did not break. I now carry it with 4 .38 sp hollow-points and one .357. I figure as long as it ends the bad guy, I don't care if it breaks. It's a $200 gun.
A good review on the differences between standard and +P rated revolvers. I will listen again with regard to the burn-rate/expansion ratio aspects. Years ago, when Super Vel 1st came out, it was a paradigm shift change in the performance of handgun ammunition.
Now that it's being manufactured again I am anxious to try it out to see how it compares to the 1970's loadings in .38 Special and .44
Magnum! When looking at current day +P comparables...I have just tested (but not chronographed yet) the Underwood 158gr.hardcast +P semi-wadcutter in a light weight S&W snub-nosed revolver that is +P rated and can tell you that the experience was memorable! My first thought was how did I get a .357 Magnum round to fit in a .38 Special cylinder! Actually, that was my 2nd thought...my first thought was 'what the hell just happened'? The target was a piece of 4 x 6 pressure treated pine and the projectile sailed right through it disappeared into the ground. The second shot (a few minutes later) was shot into the side of the block at an angle to increase the travel path into the block and the bullet almost exited in spite of that! The penetration depth was ~ 7+ inches. I would feel much better shooting that round out of an SP101 Ruger or
357 Magnum revolver...if I was shooting it on a regular basis. I would be interested to hear any feedback you all have regarding the new Super Vel or the Underwood+P 158gr. Hardcast loadings... Thanks for your time and thoughts on this in advance.
I have a M36 made in the early 60's, I like it for an EDC but the hammer spur is not good for pocket carry.
I can't bring myself to bob the hammer, I need to get a 642.
Thanks for the video.
One notes the 'ridge' on the since 1980 revolvers combine that ridge with the 'hilary hole'. I personally find it curious.
One also notes Smith & Wesson also published a statement that 'model numbered' revolvers (all S&W revolvers since 1957 or so) are safe with +p loads. This was announced prior to the latest sale, so I cannot be sure.
Syttende Mai (May 17th). Thanks for the video. I have an S&W Model 36 currently on my hip. I also currently have +P loads in my pistol.
357 Magnum and 38 Special +P firearms are so commonly available that I can't find a reason to shoot +P in my revolvers that aren't rated for it.
Craig Benz As a matter of going to the range and practice or plinking I don’t recommend it. But if I’m going to carry this fire arm as I sometimes do it’s going to have plus P Ammo in it there’s no reason not to.
The point is they are rated for it. Just because +p isn't stamped on the barrel does not mean it is not rated for p. Back in the day they shot hotter loads than +p today.
I agree with your thoughts on this subjecet!
Very well done video. I have a Model 14(basically a 6" Model 10) from the late '60s that I was wondering would be safe if I had to run some +P through it. I'd love to have a Model 36 to bring out every now and then. That said, while I typically keep autoloaders on hand for defensive use if I need to carry a snub-nosed revolver I'm going to reach for my Ruger SP101 and step up to .357 Magnum. I'm able to handle the recoil.
I broke a cylinder stop stud shooting +P in an older 36. I had to ship it off to S&W to get repaired.
A very great posting and shooting films. A lot learned from this. Thanks
I have an older Smith and wesson model 12, made of aluminum alloy. I brought it used so I had to look up that you should never use +p ammo in it. I put some .38 special ammo in it with 158 grain , it did not blow up my gun , but when I tried to eject my rounds after firing. 3 rounds went out with no problem , but the other expanded in the cylinder. I had a hard time taking them out. But it did not damage the workability of my gun, thank God. But I now use nothing higher then 130 grain.
Key I think to the older model"s is that they are Steel.
Everything you've said here is right on.
Good video and thank you for clarification on the use of ammo to the point and with references.
EXELLENT lecture Sir, 👌
Very nice guns too!!!
Very informative; thank you.
Hello' My J - frame according to serial Number! model 36 D-19 / serial number beginning with 23......shows Manufacture Date between 1952- 1953. I've confirmed 300 rounds. Of +P ammo until I realized someone at the range pointed out '' If the frame Inside by the yoke Is not marked with +P! I should not use +P rounds.
with that said I still shoot +P rounds with no ongoing Issues. Because It's an Old revolver passed on by My Granpa I now shoot the revolver about every two to three years with +P ammo. I also use It as my carry from time to time. Thank you for all the Info you provided! with newer ammo today that was not available when I was 17 years of age, now 63 years of age' I still shoot Remington ammo +P 148gr or 125gr and PMC bronze 130 gr. This Is a wonderful weapon and with carry permit makes It even a better weapon.
when it comes to ammo, whichever one is on the best sale. who care how fast or hard the bullet hits the paper target at the range.Good info. TU
I recently bought a Colt Police Positive chambered in calibre .38 special, with a 6 inch barrel, that, according to the serial number was manufactured in 1921... by my limited experience, but keen eye, it appears to have never been fired... it is a beautiful gun, but I carry it for self defense... I have never fired the gun myself (yet), and have a box of Winchester +P, that I would only use as SD ammo... the rest I have is standard pressure rated GECO hollow points, and some semi-wad cutters for range practice... it is a beautiful gun, and I would hate ruining it... am I safe, for SD purposes at least? I actually doubt I will ever need to use it for SD, but I live in a somewhat sketchy part of town, and carry it now, religiously...
I am kinda proud to be in possession of a 102 year old virgin... I want her to be my best friend, if ya know what I mean....
I highly enjoyed your video, your logic makes sense to me.
Great vid, very imformitive older S&W 's just have class❤🔫😎
I have the same smith and Wesson but it’s a 4 inch barrel. All I’ve shot out of it is plus p rounds
Sir , I called S&W about a model 36-7 and was told that model 36-9 and newer were rated for plus P ammo.
On a side note I feel that all revolvers should have a glossy finish. Great presentation and beautiful 36 too.
I personally use Buffalo 🐃 bore semi wadcutter hallow points in +P 38 Special. You will mess someone up.
Didn’t Elmer Kieth hot load 38 special in non + P S&W revolvers back in the early 1930s inventing the 357 magnum?
My philosophy on +P is that my snubby was my Dad’s (he passed away in 2016) and I want to keep this Colt det’ spec’ as long as I can because I loved him. I’ll use .357 or 38 +P in my 4” S&W 686 for in home protection and save my snubby for posterity. Tom KC3QAC
Factory test ammo is much much hotter than store bought ammo for liability reasons.Warnings on ammo boxes are printed for liability purposes.
I had a turn of the century Iver Johnson. 1903 I believe. It cracked the cylinders 1 & 3 bowed the top strap. I was a fool kid and knew better though.
I got a brand new Taurus 856 model in .38 Special. The owners manual says it can't fire Plus P ammo, but Taurus's website says it can. I'm a little confused. Which one is true?