@@robertlemaster7525 No. While Underwood is not a SAAMI member company, they do claim on all their boxes this: "_Underwood Ammo_ precision ammunition is manufactured with absolute care using the finest components available-under SAAMI specifications. All primers are non-corrosive. We produce our ammunition with the utmost care and pride to deliver a product you can be confident in." This leads me to believe that they are not exceeding specifications on +P.
@@GunSam well I asked for a couple of reasons, one was that it appears that it is marked +P on the box during the intro, & I also know that most smaller manufactures of ammo are not commonly affiliated with SAAMI. I didn't know if you weren't SAAMI, that you could still claim that a product was plus p. I don't necessarily worry about a manufacturer being SAAMI involved as I have read that it is a very expensive process. Almost like a "barrier to entry" or cartel as much as anything else.
@@robertlemaster7525 Even European CIP standards if I remember correctly simply rate a "38 Special" with no pluses and P's in their designation, as a max pressure of 21,700.
That is some powerful .38. On a side note, when I see you handling that snubbie, I can't help but think about the practicality of a gun like that. It goes places a bigger gun can't. It might lack capacity, but we're talking a defensive gun. Make your shots count and get out of there.
@@LionquestFitness My favorite round when going to the snub nose .357 is the Gold Dot short barrel, as it's averaging 400 ft lbs, it's a step above the 9mm too but not by much. Also the Golden Saber and Hornady American Gunner .357's are near identical in recoil and energy. I would say those are the 3 best snub nose .357 loads. I usually don't go to .38+P in a .357, so those low end magnums are nice options.
@@GunSam I had a S&W scandium J frame in .357 mag. That was about 10 years ago. I did research on loads, to find out Masoud Ayoob (I think) had already researched and tested.He stated Winchester Silvertip 147 gr. had less recoil and flash from powder than others. He also deer hunted with it. The bullet stopped in opposite side hide with a clean kill. The deer was estimated at 175 lbs. ( Combat Handguns magazine).
Hard cast semi-wadcutters driven to maximum velocities are awsome loads. They hit hard and penetrate to next week. Hard cast semi-wadcutters loaded at subsonic velocities are just plain fun to shoot. I wish more guys would test them against those expensive HSTs, GDs, and those Phillips screwdriver bullets. I suspect the results would be surprising. Thanks for the vid.
I agree entirely. I think in our world of modern magic bullets, we overlook some of these great rounds. Plus, in a defense situation, I firmly believe an exit hole is going to add to the stopping power.
Back in 1974 I remember a Ammo company named Super Vel , 38sp 125gn JHP. Today, I still hand load for the 357 magnum. Sidearm, 4in SS, and Rifle, single shot, break action, 22in barrel. With my 22's I'll never go hungry, if and when I have to step it up a bit, I reach for my 357. AND all of the 38sp ammo can be used.
Anyone else get flashbacks of Paul Harrell as he read the chronograph numbers? Sam - I truly enjoy that you are shooting this ammo over the chronograph, and that you are using your own unique test medium. Too many UA-cam channels just talk about specs and numbers. Keep up the good work, and comparing you to PH is one of the highest compliments I can give!
Thank you. Most of it is coincidental as I was shooting water jugs on my channel years before I ever heard of Paul Harrell. When I first got a chronograph I did not read the numbers until I had a secondary camera failure, and was home trying to edit a video and had no information at all. Reading the numbers provides a backup and also confirms to my viewers that i'm not making up the numbers with the secondary camera.
Watching again. Still really sweet to see my Chrony results confirmed with the 2" barrel. This is a legit 400+ ft-lbs 38 snubnose load! Alaskan game guides should give it a look, lol!
What these are is a re-creation of the old .38-44 loads from 1930 onward, before the introduction of the 357 Mag in 1935. They would get 1100+ fps with a 158 gr bullet. Various handloads can do the same, usually with 2400 powder. Many handloaders make them for use in 357 mag revolvers. Pretty useful, great for a woods load and for animal defense. For self defense i would say cast the bullet a little softer, lower the velocity by 100 fps or so, and drill a hollow point in the nose. They would probably be ideal. Pretty nice load. When i start handloading, i plan to make a fair bit of .38-44 loads for my magnum guns. They will be in +p stamped brass and clearly labeled on their boxes for magnum chambers only. I figure 1100-1150 fps will be plenty. Luckily i saved a magazine article with specific load data about 10 years ago. One of the commenters said he used these types of loads in the 80's for hiking in the mountains. Excellent choice.
@@painmt651 no. They would probably be +p+ by today's standards. Which is why, back then, they were only supposed to be shot in guns with 44 frames, hence the name. The larger cylinders had thicker chamber walls in 38 cal in order to contain the higher pressures. Modern +p specs came into existence in 1972 with the introduction of the "FBI load" - 158 gr +P LSWCHP. And it was still only rated at 890 FPS from a 4" barrel. But it worked well
Hi Sam, I have actually pressure tested this round with other brands and models by Underwood. I have also deconstructed and reconstructed this particular round to try and determine the loading. I think I have the answer (I test my reconstructions and theories for pressure and velocity): It's 6.9 gr of Power Pistol powder. Regarding pressures -- by my equipment it shows very close to 26,000 psig. You will probably know that SAAMI rating for 38+P is 18,500 up to 20,000 psig depending on your source. This load definitely exceeds SAAMI max ave working pressure - but not in the respect that it appears to obey the limit for the 38+P proof test. Proof testing is usually conducted at 130% of the former pressure. 130% of 20,000 psi is 26,000 psi. I have also tested Underwood's 38+P 158 gr LSWCHP and it comes in around 19,000 psi by my equipment, and out of my 4" 686 clocks 911 fps. I do believe this Underwood LSWC (Not HP) load is the exception, not the rule - even for Underwood in the 38 class. This video is NOT meant to suggest that anyone should go out and load 26,000 psi 38+P rounds like Underwood, and I am certainly not a testing lab. But, if I'm right it might provide some input. Your mileage may vary.
MANY OF THEM ARE DUPLEX LOADS THAT THE AVERAGE RELOADER LIKE ME SIMPLY CANNOT REPRODUCE -- THOUGHT ABOUT IT SOME BUT THEN ENVISIONED MY REVOLVERS AS FRAGMENTATION GRENADES IN MY HAND & JUST WENT WITH THE MANUALS 😁 BUT YEAH - WITH A 140-158 KEITH STYLE HARD CAST SOME OF MY LOADS ARE SERIOUS PENETRATORS
Back in the 80's, after reading Elmer Keith, I loaded 12 grains 2400 in a 38 case w/ 158 swcl. Just for fun we got as I recall 1250 fps out of an L frame 6"... Lots of fun for a back pack gun in Commie4nia, Sierra Nv. Mts.
Gave my brother my .44 Anaconda earlier this year as my arthritic hands can’t do that kinda recoil anymore, so I needed a good woods gun for black bear defense in deer season. Bought 2 boxes of these today (black cherry flavor, UW’s new coating) and will be using them from now on in my S&W 4” Mod 10. Have no doubt they’ll give a bear reason to pause if delivered in a frontal 6-round volley, as it only takes one in the right place to do the job. Thanks for this excellent video Sam, very informative! 👍
@Bill Randall Lever guns are brush guns with brush cartridges. What are you shooting at 600 meters with a bullet that small? Either way your question isn't really relevant to any of this.
@Bill Randall because most deer kills are less that 100 yards in wooded areas and i'd rather use a 158gn bullet going 1800 fps than a fragile 55 gn .22 caliber at 3000 fps that deer going down hard in hits tracks with the slower heavier bullet that will expand and have enough penetration to hit the vitals.
@@Ford360CID Another thing to remember there are some states that have limits on which type of gun/ammo can be used, for instance, in my state, depending on what area you hunt, there are limits as to what type of gun you can use. In some parts only shotguns, in other parts only straight wall cartridges.
That bullet was used as a benchmark in the Royal Canadian Mounted Police ammo tests back in the 90's as told in the book--Stopping Power by Marshall and Sanow!! That book is full of ammo tests by other agencies other than the FBI and is a good historical read.
This is an excellent load in 38. And used to be really cheap/plentiful. I still have a box laying around somewhere, they're basically a 357. Magnum just downloaded a hair. I was impressed the first time I shot one and hit a steel plate. Great review 👏
That's one HELL of a round thinking about picking some up with a sp101 for hiking. You sir are increasing my love of 38 and revolvers in general thank you.
It's a pretty hot load when you consider that in the 1930's the 38/44 Heavy duty factory load (Very Hot Loaded .38spl) was a 158gr gas checked semi-wadcutter at 1125fps. I have duplicated that load (the factory load) from my 4" 38/44 (gun was manufactured in 1952) and its stout, but not excessive and the cases eject clean. Thank you for the very useful data. It is much appreciated.
Thanks for demonstrating that a .38 special +P is an even more effective round when pushed to maximum powder loads with a semi-wadcutter type bullet. Agree with those that said that round would be really effective in a lever action; will have to get some and try it out. Probably have to order it as I do not see Underwood ammo a lot where I am. Thanks again Gun Sam.
One of the best gun channel for using perfect camera angle and split screen. Also, putting time to set up perfect target practice. Appriciate your work.
Gun Sam _Revolver Aficionado_ - Well, I agree however if and when you’re in a life or death, fight or flight kinda situation, I don’t expect to feel the recoil, as you said. ✌️🇺🇸
Thank you Sam for that fantastic test of the Underwood .38 special. I like hiking the Pennsylvania woods and I usually carry my S&W model 66 with a 3 inch barrel and I would consider that round to be a good bear defense round. PS, I am addicted to your ammo tests.
A consideration is when this is used in J frame 357 snubs or similar, most don't have long enough ejection rods to fully eject 357 cases. It will, however, fully eject 38 Special cases, so reloading will be facilitated.
I have heard this but haven't tested that out myself. I'm sort of the do it myself type of person, so my experience will vary. I do however think that the old style of tilting and slapping the ejector can be completely changed to a different technique with the way a lot of ammo is loaded. Pretty much anything that's in nickel plated cases that's not too hot will darn near fall out and even with a 90 degree tilt one touch on the ejector spits out all the brass. So it's funny as years ago nickel plated brass with modest loads wasn't really a thing, but now days it is. Sort of funny to try to make a modern take on using such an old system.
Just tested this round versus some 4" x 6" pressure treated pine which was shot from the side at an angle in order to increase the length of the bullet path, since it was passing through the 6" width at 0° obliquity. Total penetration was 7+ inches. This is out of a 2" bbl. S &W... and is definitely the hottest .38 Special load I have ever encountered over the last 60 years!
Looking at these loads today from Underwood at my local outdoor range was a lot of fun. I ran a cylinder of 125 grain +p gold dots thru my j frame and my ria 206 with no issue. For over 430 ft pds of energy and 1250 fps this round performs like a .357 mag too. I don’t recommend a steady diet of nuclear ammo like this round but sparingly you’ll be fine.
Yes they seemed to be good. That tells me right there that Underwood is indeed pushing the loads. Usually when you go max pressure you get more consistent velocity.
Thank you. If I remember right, GeographyCzar tested this ammo in I believe a .38 Special only LCR. His reactions to the recoil in his hand were priceless.
I have 2 and a half boxes of Federal law enforcement only 110 gr. Jacketed +p+ that are super hot that I have shot and carry in my pristine 1967 Colt Dec.Spec.I don't know the velocity but there is some speed there.Im glad there is a set of pachmieyer grips on it .I got them in 1980 ,don't know when they where made.
Thanks. Yeah I always had a problem with gel as there's nothing hard in gel. I could not poke through my bologna pack plastic then through the fiber board with my finger, much how I could not do that to a human body. I see people put their fingers through gel without even a starting hole....so it's like...okay?
Only speculation, but I think its cost. I have dissected a lot of the mainstream .38's and what's in there is often the same powder and powder charge as their 9mm rounds. This way the companies that run 9mm constantly can leave the powder throw the same. Switching it up is time and money. Underwood is a small company not running millions of rounds. Easy to take time and make a good product for all their calibers.
Liability. These are specialty rounds for dedicated enthusiasts, not for a mass market. These rounds would be specifically useful for hunters who wanted a powerful backup round for defense against wild board, bears, ect. These rounds are not for personal defense like the soft lead variety by the same company; they're not for home defense, as they don't mitigate over penetration, and they're certainly not for daily practice. Sold indiscriminately on the mass market, people would be putting these heavyweight rounds into their antique revolves and blowing them up, resulting in lawsuits. The box says .38 special, while most every other .38 special round yields ~ 200 lb/ft of energy, so these rounds are a surprise just waiting to happen for somebody.
In a recent email from Underwood, they told me this round was rated at 1250 FPS thru a 6 inch barrel. Velocity of their other 38 special Ammo is measured with a 4” barrel gun. I shot one round of Underwood’s Keith load thru my 642 air lite j frame. That was the upper limit for me. Much more pleasant to shoot in my steel model 64 K frame, which often accompanies me while walking in the woods.
It's funny because Underwood's .38 Special+P is more powerful than Buffalo Bore's, but then when it comes to their .357 Mag ammo such as the 180 gr hard cast flat nose, Buffalo Bore and Underwood's version are both 180 gr rated at 1,400 FPS. I tested both in my 4.12" S&W 686 here, the Buffalo Bore version gave me 1,387 FPS while Underwood's only gave me 1,221 FPS.
I suppose a tumbling projectile with enough energy behind it could be compared to a bullet that expanded to the same width as this bullet was long. Trouble is you can't depend on it tumbling predictably. Either way impressive results; credible video.
Short of bumping up to .357 Mag, it's mighty hard to come up with a more versatile/useful handgun chambering than .38 Special. Between the two of them, you're talking about the handgun equivalent of .30-06 - from snakes to two-legged goblins to deer to grizzly bear, there's a load for it.
matching muzzle velocity -"They might have used a six inch barrel!" ...or maybe they had no 3.5 yard gap between the muzzle and the chronograph. Perhaps they had their muzzle right up to their chronograph. I've never seen you do that. Thanks for the effort. I really dig all your videos, including this one!
True muzzle velocity is impossible with firearms with this chronograph. Either the flash will read at like 9,999 FPS, or the smoke will read at like 75 FPS. I don't know what ammunition factories use to rate velocity, but I do know from 5 yards, the muzzle velocity would be changed very little compared to the muzzle.
My wife purchased me a Taurus 605 for Christmas it has the custom trigger and hammer springs it also came with three different grips but had the hogue grips on it. I recently purchased the ATI scorpion X2 small frame grips and let me tell you they make a world of difference my whole hand fits perfectly. If you have bigger hands I strongly recommend the scorpion X2 small frame from ATI
@@wehrewulf you've been listening to too many stupid ass influencers, it's really hard to fuck up a revolver. Also seeing how most guns are CNC cut now most brands don't make bad guns. Unless it's some piece of shit Glock.
Yes, hopefully they stay. I am what people call a "natural" subscription channel, as I don't do sub for sub, giveaways or fancy screen shots. If they had to recount or anything of that nature, I doubt i'd lose many subs.
Very impressive velocity consistency and high velocity. The smoke is probably the bullet lube or coating. If you get errors on the chrony, back up a few feet. I have found that the muzzle blast causes error readings. Excellent test procedure.
I have never heard of round this powerful for 38 special. I heard about the 135 grain which was said to be strongest. I think this must be newer round created.
Great video and just goes to show us the range of power for any given caliber and why I don’t particularly pay too much attention when someone speaks in absolutes when they say one caliber is better than the other. 👍
I just tested their bonded .38+P today but only in the 4" and that was nice as well. It has the 125 gr Gold Dot bullet and I got 1,075 FPS or so average for I think it was 320 ft lbs. I need to test it in the snub nose too. BTW their bonded 9mm 124+P gave me 1,207 FPS average in my 4" Ruger pistol and the 125 gr .357 Underwood bonded gave me 1,475 FPS average in the 4" 686, all pretty impressive. I recently tested their LSWCHP standard pressure 158 gr and again, very good performance and no smoke with that one.
Nice review! The avg velocity & fpe out of the 4" is impressive. They're probably not something I would use for edc, but I'm sure they would be worthy to keep around for general purpose needs.
I've heard people actually say that a 38 is weaker than a 380, a 380 isn't much of a threat, and a 9mm is a poor substitute for a rifle. I on the other hand, wouldn't want to have any kind of lead pointed towards my body, and this 38 load is certainly no slouch. However, my line to people is usually "You can kill the CRAP out of someone with a 38 dude"
.38 Special has many load levels, but the key is +P. At standard pressure you're lucky to top 250 ft lbs in a 4" barrel with typical more like 200. With +P, going up to 20,000 PSI you start to average 280 ft lbs for the regular old +P loads like Winchester or Remington, and with the right powder you get 300, 400, 500 ft lbs. The 9mm is fine, but I hear a lot of "9mm is as powerful as .357 Magnum". Well, I finally tested the Buffalo Bore 115 gr 9mm+P+ load in a full 5" barrel and it was like 550 ft lbs. Not bad, but Buffalo Bore 125 gr .357 is 800 ft lbs in my 4" revolver. The .380 is fine, but the .380 is actually in the real world the power level people SAY the .38 Special is. Something like 150 to 250 ft lbs even in a 3" to 4" barrel.
Just a guess, but I suspect the bullet traveling through the shorter barrel didn't pick up as much spin as it did through the longer barrel, due to the shorter transit time and slightly lower velocity. As a result, it lacked the stability to prevent it from tumbling once it met some resistance. Just my theory.
Those are some smokin' hot velocities from a snub-nosed revolver. I've loaded some 180 grain hard-cast lead flat nosed bullets for .38 special, and they kick like the proverbial mule out of a Taurus 605. Not fun to shoot at all. Liked your vid - nicely done. Cheers.
I use Underwood Ammo in my little LCR. They offer a hard cast full wadcutter that's not a reduced target load, it's full power, just under +P level. This adds a whole new level of effectiveness to the .38 Special. That WILL penetrate to the vital organs & cut it's way through getting there. I have a high level of confidence in the round if I'm unfortunate enough to have use them.
I have had a few people tell me about that one. I think they could go to ultimate awesome if they loaded that backwards as it wouldn't over-expand being so hard but still expand some. I think Atomic ammo is the only brand to offer something like that. But regular wadcutter would be good too as they seem to just move straight even after glancing off of something.
@@GunSam well Sam, that's an old reloading trick, but I'll stick with the wadcutters loaded full power like Underwood does it. They would definitely penetrate to vital organs cutting through everything on the way. I imagine quick follow-up shots wouldn't be much of an issue. I must add that I truly hope I never have to use that ammo.
*I've got the 1200 fps 125 gr solid copper underwoods in my 38+p smithy 14.7 oz neked 360J for carry and around the house and thats about as hot as I would wanna go. I also got a box of their solid copper 95 gr 1300 fps 38+p and I only shot one of those 😂*
I know this is an old video & you may not remember , do you think it's possible the bullet skidded on the rifling & didn't get the full spin speed ? If the rifling was shallow and or the coating was stripped off VS locked in the rifling ? Some will skid for a bit then lock in , but with a very short barrel , it may not have locked in very well . One sign would have been on the bullet , I think you may see some of the engraving is narrow ( Normal ) & some are wide = the skid . You may also see leading in the barrel , more than normal for hard cast flat base , normal = likely very little ?? If I were to buy a 38 for carry I would get a >> SIX > 9mm , 40 S&W , 45 acp . I think that frame could take full power rounds well >> ua-cam.com/video/LT8d5qni9vg/v-deo.html
Just shot 15 rounds of this yesterday through my Airweight 637 snubby. Holy moly! It wasn't fun at all. It was hard to keep a follow-through. My right hand is still sore.
Packing something like this would clearly enable you to protect yourself against a javelina on a 3 day crack binge that just got evicted from it's government housing unit.
Nice. I'm really torn between 38 special and 357 right now. I'm getting a 3" so this is nice to see I'd probably be high 400s in FTLB. and I imagine a 357 in 3" would be unbearable to shoot.
I load some spicy .38 spl. hy-tec coated 158 grain Acme bullets but I don't think I have reached 1200 fps yet. But they are fine shooters out of the mods 60, 66 snubbys and mod 19 and gp100. It was big fun to watch your demonstration, one more fine Gun Sam video.
520 ft/lbs is high end .40 / .45 and low end 10mm and .357 territory. You are the first reviewer I've heard mention the "different" smell of the UW powder.
Gun Sam _Revolver Aficionado_ I’ve been using Remington (+P) 110 HTP in my 340PD b/c it’s easy to control, comes in 50 round boxes and is easy to find around here.
It did well, however I have had issues with some of their other ammo, 250 FPS lower than rated velocity with some of it, even in a 4" barrel that far below.
It’s all about selecting the most efficient powder for a given bullet weight. Powders these days are pretty good. Out of my Glock 33 357 Sig with a 3.4” barrel I can get 1380 fps with a 125 gr bullet with my reloads.
Love this 38. Load. I'd feel comfortable carrying it in light woods areas. Deer, medium sized pigs, coyotes. I think it'd even defend against a bear. But I'd rather have the 180 grain 357. Just to be sure
They all laugh at me for carrying my 1950s vintage mint stock .38 blue smith chiefs special model 36. Then we all go to the range and i almost get the same groupings as them. Them being my group of friends with their 9mm sigs, glocks...
I carry my dads old "chief" it is stock, maybe a little polishing of trigger parts, and it still shoots just fine, just has holster wear on the frame, from "protecting and defending" for over 20 yrs. I've been asked if "that old gun was still safe to shoot?" they stop asking when they see the groups. new is not always better, It was the first handgun I ever shot, and lets me feel as silly as it may be, like dad is still here.
I don't know if Buffalo Bore makes a 38 special version of this round or not, but they make a 180gr 357 LFN slugs. Those things are the best 357 rounds I've ever seen. Granted it's a Taurus, but my shooting just a couple cylinders of that fucked up my Taurus 605 (5 shot J frame size 357 mag). Every time I got to the same chamber when I pulled the trigger it wouldn't go back, but if I let off and pulled again then it would go. I put some empty casings in it and worked it out in a couple days, but damn those rounds are powerful! I love them. That's what I have in my 605. I keep it at home for home defense purposes so I don't have to turn over one of my nice Smiths to the police if I ever need it lol. I love revolvers. Grew up shooting and hating them and now it's about all I own.
Sounds like you have one chamber that's slightly tighter. I have seen hot rounds do this, especially when loaded in regular non nickel plated brass. The expansion of the brass in a tight chamber causes all sorts of issues like that.
I honestly don't really sight them in. They typically shoot fine how they come, but I do sometimes do micro adjustments and as long as at 7 yards they are on, i'm good with that.
1250fps isn’t more powerful than a .357 magnum. You would have to have a 180 grain bullet to get that slow out of a .357. They can go up to 1650 fps with 125 grain bullets. Great test, great video; and I’ll have to grab some Underwood ammo!
it's been years since I watched my own video like this. But if I ever said 1,250 FPS in a 158 gr is more powerful than .357 Magnum, it generally is. The standard forever has been 125 gr at 1,450 FPS and 158 gr at 1,240 FPS from 4" barrels.
I thought I would mention something relevant here. The Remington HTP 158 gr SJHP .357 Magnum round I spoke of is no slouch, it's a full house Magnum round. Here's how this 158 gr .38 Special round compares in 5 shot averages: In the 4" 686 the Remington .357 Mag gave me 1,240 FPS/539 ft lbs energy. The Underwood .38 SPL gave me 1,217 FPS/520 ft lbs energy. Here's the funny part, in the 2" Taurus the Remington .357 Mag gave me 1,103 FPS/427 FPE while the Underwood .38 SPL gave me.....1,103 FPS/427 FPE. What's interesting is that in the snub nose the .38 Special had less recoil than the .357 Mag. I suspect this is because the .38 Special is "less" powerful and achieved it's extra velocity from the bullet not being jacketed so it's "slipperier" in contrast to a copper jacket. So less going on in the gun with the same effect on target as far as energy is concerned.
This is just speculation. But the shorter case of the 38 SPl probably allowed for a smaller powder charge and greater efficiency. The muzzle pressure was probably lower and that would lead to less felt recoil. Either way, that was a very impressive load. Don't want to be in the way of that freight train.
also Sam your using less powder in the 38spl case vs a .357 magnum case so less powder same velocity and i bet that powder charge is just touching the bottom of that lswc bullet.
The .357 needs a longer barrel to realize the increase, that’s kind of why I laugh at people suggesting a 357 magnum snubnose revolver, not only will the muzzle blast blind you at night, you will be completely deaf for a while with really no gain.
@@humpy936 You've never fired a magnum with a short barrel at night, have you? If you did, you wouldn't be saying that. One, the muzzle blast, while impressive, is not bright enough to kill your night vision. Two, even though you do get a lot of recoil and lose a lot of energy, a 2" .357 magnum is still throwing a heavier bullet faster than a 9mm+P. The only way a 9mm can really come close is if you shoot it through a service length barrel and use a short barrel loading on the 357.
Fudmottin You’re funny, of course I have or I wouldn’t have mentioned it, it damn well sure does destroy your night vision, it makes you deaf for a while also, don’t know where you got the 9 mm bullshit because I never even mentioned that, were comparing 357 versus 38 special. By the way same goes for 44 magnum versus 44 special out of a snubby.
I have used them in a Rossi 92, Marlin 1894. In the levers they do not feed well due to OAL of the round being a bit too long for the lifters to cycle properly. The 180gr loads will not fit in the 1873 lever rifle lifter at all, to long. I do know of some guys who had Winchester 94's in .357 and used the 180's without any issues. The 94 had a bad reputation with shorter rounds and reliable cycling and they are not that common now.
That's what happens when it hits a bad guy in the pump as well it splatters back just like shooting a stack of bottles . No if ands or butts left standing . I was using 38' Smith & Wesson police special with a 4.5 " inch barrel. It's the best 38' I've ever shot for sure . It was actually my Duty weapon , even though I purchased it myself and had it griped and weighted etc. Myself .
I have noted that if you take handgun projectiles penetration in water jugs in inches and multiply by .66 or 2/3, you'll be pretty close to penetration depth in ballistic gelatin. I've no idea what your baloney and particle board pack does to penetration, but it's not a bad idea.
I thank you for your good work in championing the .38 special, the greatest cartridge. Be encouraged to get more pieces in .38 special only. Too many people do not appreciate a special chambered gun because they can’t imagine themselves w/o magnum capability. I will not change their minds. But since you already love this cartridge and you already have a .357, there’s no reason not to. I have a Smith model 67 and love it. This K-frame is a monster for the caliber but can take a steady diet of any .38 you would want to feed it. I’ll be getting custom grips and cutting the cylinder for moon clips. It would handle light magnum were it magnum chambered, but the shorter chamber is obviously more ideal for .38. Also just purchased the Colt Night Cobra, and I think I’ll enjoy it. And my holy grail gun would be a Colt DS stainless model SF-V1 with bobbed hammer, .38 only, of course. But if you like .357 and want to get another that hurls .38 particularly well (accuracy is seldom discussed but should be discussed a lot more in these conversations) look no further than the Smith 640 pro. I call that piece the best .38 spl. that is not a .38 spl.
I hear ya. I had made a video discussing what a ".357 Magnum" is vs a "gun chambered for .357 Magnum". Basically some are in .357 Magnum simply because the metallurgy allows for it, but these type of small revolvers are really a .38 Special than "can" fire a .357 Magnum if needed, but not many people are going to like the 15 ft lbs of recoil energy in their hand with a .357 Mag vs 5 ft lbs recoil energy of a 9mm or .38 Special.
Yes, I watched your other video and it’s right on. Perhaps you could up the ante and make a vid on reasons to get a .38 special only revolver. Don’t expect too many people to read between the lines of your .357 video.
@@jonathanvaughan453 It's an interesting concept as lets say a snubby, a .38 Special+P is right at the level needed for just enough. Like, .38 Special usually will not both penetrate well and expand, but usually a .38 Special+P will both penetrate and expand well, just that little extra of about a 125 gr HP going from 800 FPS to 900 FPS makes a huge difference. Beyond that there's only maybe 2-3 reason for .38 Special only. One, frame materials to make them light and inexpensive, two- the .38 Special as opposed to .357 Magnum is really what should be used because the .38 Special is a normal round, not am uncontrollable magnum, and three the psychological idea of using .38 in a .357 or .44 Special in a .44 Mag etc is difficult for some people.
I can think of a fourth: not all .357s will throw .38s as accurately as a .38. I’m sure you know the ballistics of this. So when purchasing a .357 the buyer would do well to inquire of its design and accuracy. A reputable maker with a precise forcing cone is an excellent start.
This, and your first point of just enough is actually an attractive feature. There is something about having no more gun than needed. Or maybe that’s just attractive to me. I’ll let you know what I think of my new Cobra when I’ve picked up and have had the chance to shoot (I live in CA and we have a waiting period).
Nice edit. You might want to think about having both Patreon and UA-cam edits for your videos so that your patrons get some added value. Then mention that in your videos so that you can perhaps get more patrons to cover your costs.
I typically try to make one video, but what I been doing is hurrying up an edit and releasing it that day to Patreon, and then after the fact watching it critically and then making an edit that's better. Maybe a much longer Patreon one would make people curious, like where I still edit the frames correctly, picture in picture etc, but leave in the 10 minutes of resetting jugs, errors in speech I make and have to reword it and edit out the bad and all of that. Might give the people who do support, the idea of how much work it takes.
BTW: PPU .380 VS .38 Special, or Golden Saber .380 VS .38 Special first? Looks like that order will arrive in a couple of days. Personally i'm really curious about the PPU.
@@GunSam I'm curious about the PPU too. I think it was the cheapest JHP Target Sports had in 380 ACP and I *think* although I'm not sure it may be sold as the Monarch brand by Academy. Isn't that what some of the other Monarch ammo has been? I'm certainly interested in the Golden Saber too. I'm not sure the order matters. I don't know if you do a batch of tests in a day or if you make a larger number of trips. This could lead to my next paragraph. Having a more "raw" cut on Patreon could work. Also you can say stuff that you would cut out later for your UA-cam upload. The only way to know if it works for you is to try it. To avoid having to heavy a workload, you might do a bunch of testing on a day and show some video for all of it in a "raw" Patreon video, or rough cut would be better. Then show your refined stuff with each individual test spaced out over time on UA-cam. I'm looking around at other "premium" 380 ACP and this video inspired me to look at Underwood. They have a 380 ACP 90gr XTP bullet load: www.underwoodammo.com/collections/handgun-ammo/products/380-acp-90-grain-xtp-jacketed-hollow-point?variant=18785729478713. It only makes it up to 210 ft-lbs advertised. I've heard good things about XTPs when they can be thrown fast enough. If they can't, they don't open. So they seem to be very velocity sensitive. Light bullets are easier to push fast. Of course lighter bullets going fast are easier to stop and I don't know if this could make the third jug or 12" in 10% gel.
@@Fudmottin Typically when it's this time of year I will do just one test per trip so I don't mess anything up. Once winter hits and I have to plan the warmest day, than on those days I sometimes do 2 or 3 videos in one trip.
@@GunSam That makes sense. I'm back on a night schedule now, so I can't even go to the range. However, I did get my Altamont grips for my PPK/S today. I'm sure I can do an utterly boring video on that topic.
Excellent work here. We appreciate it.
Thank you much Buffalo!
So is this rated at plus p plus?
@@robertlemaster7525 No. While Underwood is not a SAAMI member company, they do claim on all their boxes this: "_Underwood Ammo_ precision ammunition is manufactured with absolute care using the finest components available-under SAAMI specifications. All primers are non-corrosive. We produce our ammunition with the utmost care and pride to deliver a product you can be confident in." This leads me to believe that they are not exceeding specifications on +P.
@@GunSam well I asked for a couple of reasons, one was that it appears that it is marked +P on the box during the intro, & I also know that most smaller manufactures of ammo are not commonly affiliated with SAAMI. I didn't know if you weren't SAAMI, that you could still claim that a product was plus p.
I don't necessarily worry about a manufacturer being SAAMI involved as I have read that it is a very expensive process. Almost like a "barrier to entry" or cartel as much as anything else.
@@robertlemaster7525 Even European CIP standards if I remember correctly simply rate a "38 Special" with no pluses and P's in their designation, as a max pressure of 21,700.
That is some powerful .38. On a side note, when I see you handling that snubbie, I can't help but think about the practicality of a gun like that. It goes places a bigger gun can't. It might lack capacity, but we're talking a defensive gun. Make your shots count and get out of there.
Yeah it's a pretty good gun. I like the loads that are a step above .38+P but less than a full house magnum.
@@GunSam I've watched most of your tests. Is there an in-between hollow point you liked?
@@LionquestFitness My favorite round when going to the snub nose .357 is the Gold Dot short barrel, as it's averaging 400 ft lbs, it's a step above the 9mm too but not by much. Also the Golden Saber and Hornady American Gunner .357's are near identical in recoil and energy. I would say those are the 3 best snub nose .357 loads. I usually don't go to .38+P in a .357, so those low end magnums are nice options.
@@GunSam I had a S&W scandium J frame in .357 mag. That was about 10 years ago. I did research on loads, to find out Masoud Ayoob (I think) had already researched and tested.He stated Winchester Silvertip 147 gr. had less recoil and flash from powder than others. He also deer hunted with it. The bullet stopped in opposite side hide with a clean kill. The deer was estimated at 175 lbs. ( Combat Handguns magazine).
Greg sighting!
Hard cast semi-wadcutters driven to maximum velocities are awsome loads. They hit hard and penetrate to next week.
Hard cast semi-wadcutters loaded at subsonic velocities are just plain fun to shoot.
I wish more guys would test them against those expensive HSTs, GDs, and those Phillips screwdriver bullets. I suspect the results would be surprising. Thanks for the vid.
I agree entirely. I think in our world of modern magic bullets, we overlook some of these great rounds. Plus, in a defense situation, I firmly believe an exit hole is going to add to the stopping power.
@@timt8029 Completely agree; two leaking holes in something is always better than just one. 👍
Back in 1974 I remember a Ammo company named Super Vel , 38sp 125gn JHP.
Today, I still hand load for the 357 magnum. Sidearm, 4in SS, and Rifle, single shot, break action, 22in barrel.
With my 22's I'll never go hungry, if and when I have to step it up a bit, I reach for my 357.
AND all of the 38sp ammo can be used.
I like the fact that you use split screens. Few guys on UA-cam take advantage of this.
Thank you. I had to get a special program for editing to do it, but it was worth it.
Anyone else get flashbacks of Paul Harrell as he read the chronograph numbers? Sam - I truly enjoy that you are shooting this ammo over the chronograph, and that you are using your own unique test medium. Too many UA-cam channels just talk about specs and numbers. Keep up the good work, and comparing you to PH is one of the highest compliments I can give!
Thank you. Most of it is coincidental as I was shooting water jugs on my channel years before I ever heard of Paul Harrell. When I first got a chronograph I did not read the numbers until I had a secondary camera failure, and was home trying to edit a video and had no information at all. Reading the numbers provides a backup and also confirms to my viewers that i'm not making up the numbers with the secondary camera.
Watching again. Still really sweet to see my Chrony results confirmed with the 2" barrel. This is a legit 400+ ft-lbs 38 snubnose load! Alaskan game guides should give it a look, lol!
It's definitely a serious load.
What these are is a re-creation of the old .38-44 loads from 1930 onward, before the introduction of the 357 Mag in 1935. They would get 1100+ fps with a 158 gr bullet. Various handloads can do the same, usually with 2400 powder. Many handloaders make them for use in 357 mag revolvers. Pretty useful, great for a woods load and for animal defense. For self defense i would say cast the bullet a little softer, lower the velocity by 100 fps or so, and drill a hollow point in the nose. They would probably be ideal. Pretty nice load. When i start handloading, i plan to make a fair bit of .38-44 loads for my magnum guns. They will be in +p stamped brass and clearly labeled on their boxes for magnum chambers only. I figure 1100-1150 fps will be plenty. Luckily i saved a magazine article with specific load data about 10 years ago. One of the commenters said he used these types of loads in the 80's for hiking in the mountains. Excellent choice.
Isn’t that within the .38 special specifications?
@@painmt651 no. They would probably be +p+ by today's standards. Which is why, back then, they were only supposed to be shot in guns with 44 frames, hence the name. The larger cylinders had thicker chamber walls in 38 cal in order to contain the higher pressures. Modern +p specs came into existence in 1972 with the introduction of the "FBI load" - 158 gr +P LSWCHP. And it was still only rated at 890 FPS from a 4" barrel. But it worked well
Hi Sam, I have actually pressure tested this round with other brands and models by Underwood. I have also deconstructed and reconstructed this particular round to try and determine the loading. I think I have the answer (I test my reconstructions and theories for pressure and velocity): It's 6.9 gr of Power Pistol powder. Regarding pressures -- by my equipment it shows very close to 26,000 psig. You will probably know that SAAMI rating for 38+P is 18,500 up to 20,000 psig depending on your source. This load definitely exceeds SAAMI max ave working pressure - but not in the respect that it appears to obey the limit for the 38+P proof test. Proof testing is usually conducted at 130% of the former pressure. 130% of 20,000 psi is 26,000 psi. I have also tested Underwood's 38+P 158 gr LSWCHP and it comes in around 19,000 psi by my equipment, and out of my 4" 686 clocks 911 fps. I do believe this Underwood LSWC (Not HP) load is the exception, not the rule - even for Underwood in the 38 class. This video is NOT meant to suggest that anyone should go out and load 26,000 psi 38+P rounds like Underwood, and I am certainly not a testing lab. But, if I'm right it might provide some input. Your mileage may vary.
MANY OF THEM ARE DUPLEX LOADS THAT THE AVERAGE RELOADER LIKE ME SIMPLY CANNOT REPRODUCE -- THOUGHT ABOUT IT SOME BUT THEN ENVISIONED MY REVOLVERS AS FRAGMENTATION GRENADES IN MY HAND & JUST WENT WITH THE MANUALS 😁 BUT YEAH - WITH A 140-158 KEITH STYLE HARD CAST SOME OF MY LOADS ARE SERIOUS PENETRATORS
Back in the 80's, after reading Elmer Keith, I loaded 12 grains 2400 in a 38 case w/ 158 swcl. Just for fun we got as I recall 1250 fps out of an L frame 6"... Lots of fun for a back pack gun in Commie4nia, Sierra Nv. Mts.
I discovered these about 2 years ago. My favorite by far. Underwood hardcast bullets are the real deal.
I said “woah” when I saw your 4 inch chrono numbers. That’s smoking!
It's not bad!
Gave my brother my .44 Anaconda earlier this year as my arthritic hands can’t do that kinda recoil anymore, so I needed a good woods gun for black bear defense in deer season. Bought 2 boxes of these today (black cherry flavor, UW’s new coating) and will be using them from now on in my S&W 4” Mod 10. Have no doubt they’ll give a bear reason to pause if delivered in a frontal 6-round volley, as it only takes one in the right place to do the job. Thanks for this excellent video Sam, very informative! 👍
I have been looking for this load to be tested for a long time, thank you
That’s a hard hitting round, no doubt. Somebody here earlier said it’d be good in a lever action, and I’d have to agree.
I wonder how it would be. Depending on the powder it may or may not get a good increase in power.
@Bill Randall Lever guns are brush guns with brush cartridges. What are you shooting at 600 meters with a bullet that small? Either way your question isn't really relevant to any of this.
Tim Sharkey I've got a .38spl/.357 levergun. From my observation a 22-24inch barrel wrings out every bit of potential from each round.
@Bill Randall because most deer kills are less that 100 yards in wooded areas and i'd rather use a 158gn bullet going 1800 fps than a fragile 55 gn .22 caliber at 3000 fps that deer going down hard in hits tracks with the slower heavier bullet that will expand and have enough penetration to hit the vitals.
@@Ford360CID Another thing to remember there are some states that have limits on which type of gun/ammo can be used, for instance, in my state, depending on what area you hunt, there are limits as to what type of gun you can use. In some parts only shotguns, in other parts only straight wall cartridges.
Buffalo Bore has the same round. 38 SPL +P OUTDOORSMAN
158 gr. Hard Cast Keith.
Those companies definitely compete. Even their soft standard pressure 158 swchp both say 854 fps
That bullet was used as a benchmark in the Royal Canadian Mounted Police ammo tests back in the 90's as told in the book--Stopping Power by Marshall and Sanow!! That book is full of ammo tests by other agencies other than the FBI and is a good historical read.
This is an excellent load in 38. And used to be really cheap/plentiful. I still have a box laying around somewhere, they're basically a 357. Magnum just downloaded a hair. I was impressed the first time I shot one and hit a steel plate. Great review 👏
That's one HELL of a round thinking about picking some up with a sp101 for hiking. You sir are increasing my love of 38 and revolvers in general thank you.
It's a pretty hot load when you consider that in the 1930's the 38/44 Heavy duty factory load (Very Hot Loaded .38spl) was a 158gr gas checked semi-wadcutter at 1125fps. I have duplicated that load (the factory load) from my 4" 38/44 (gun was manufactured in 1952) and its stout, but not excessive and the cases eject clean.
Thank you for the very useful data. It is much appreciated.
Thanks for demonstrating that a .38 special +P is an even more effective round when pushed to maximum powder loads with a semi-wadcutter type bullet. Agree with those that said that round would be really effective in a lever action; will have to get some and try it out. Probably have to order it as I do not see Underwood ammo a lot where I am. Thanks again Gun Sam.
Thank you. Luckily this stuff is pretty reasonably priced.
38 specila is one of the greatest rounds ever created , when loaded to its potential its an ass kicker.
One of the best gun channel for using perfect camera angle and split screen. Also, putting time to set up perfect target practice.
Appriciate your work.
👍Good stuff. Gives me more confidence in my SW back up 38 Special. Love all the Underwood ammo. Thanks for the video👍
Thank you. It's not bad but the recoil is harsh.
Gun Sam _Revolver Aficionado_ - Well, I agree however if and when you’re in a life or death, fight or flight kinda situation, I don’t expect to feel the recoil, as you said. ✌️🇺🇸
Thank you Sam for that fantastic test of the Underwood .38 special. I like hiking the Pennsylvania woods and I usually carry my S&W model 66 with a 3 inch barrel and I would consider that round to be a good bear defense round. PS, I am addicted to your ammo tests.
A consideration is when this is used in J frame 357 snubs or similar, most don't have long enough ejection rods to fully eject 357 cases. It will, however, fully eject 38 Special cases, so reloading will be facilitated.
I have heard this but haven't tested that out myself. I'm sort of the do it myself type of person, so my experience will vary. I do however think that the old style of tilting and slapping the ejector can be completely changed to a different technique with the way a lot of ammo is loaded. Pretty much anything that's in nickel plated cases that's not too hot will darn near fall out and even with a 90 degree tilt one touch on the ejector spits out all the brass. So it's funny as years ago nickel plated brass with modest loads wasn't really a thing, but now days it is. Sort of funny to try to make a modern take on using such an old system.
Fast, hard hitting, & accurate! Great round for the trail or hunting!
Thanks for the review. Always good to see what different rounds do in similar medium.
Well done, Sam. Useful information all. Thank you.
Thanks!
Just tested this round versus some 4" x 6" pressure treated pine which was shot from the side at an angle in order to increase the length of the bullet path, since it was passing through the 6" width at 0° obliquity.
Total penetration was 7+ inches.
This is out of a 2" bbl. S &W... and is definitely the hottest .38 Special load I have ever encountered over the last 60 years!
Looking at these loads today from Underwood at my local outdoor range was a lot of fun. I ran a cylinder of 125 grain +p gold dots thru my j frame and my ria 206 with no issue. For over 430 ft pds of energy and 1250 fps this round performs like a .357 mag too. I don’t recommend a steady diet of nuclear ammo like this round but sparingly you’ll be fine.
I got some of the Underwood 158 gr. JHP which went from 1000 fps to 1160. It's now painful to shoot from an LCRx.
You got your bath for the day. The velocity speeds were very consistent.
Yes they seemed to be good. That tells me right there that Underwood is indeed pushing the loads. Usually when you go max pressure you get more consistent velocity.
The accuracy of that coated round was awesome.
Yeah not bad! Usually that 686 is accurate with everything, but this is a better one than some.
Thanks Mark C. ! Sam runs a great channel. Running that ammo in a light snub is not meant for fun! Best regards Sam!
Thank you. If I remember right, GeographyCzar tested this ammo in I believe a .38 Special only LCR. His reactions to the recoil in his hand were priceless.
I have 2 and a half boxes of Federal law enforcement only 110 gr. Jacketed +p+ that are super hot that I have shot and carry in my pristine 1967 Colt Dec.Spec.I don't know the velocity but there is some speed there.Im glad there is a set of pachmieyer grips on it .I got them in 1980 ,don't know when they where made.
I like how you test the ammunition. I also feel it's more true to form to a real world scenario than gel alone.
Thanks. Yeah I always had a problem with gel as there's nothing hard in gel. I could not poke through my bologna pack plastic then through the fiber board with my finger, much how I could not do that to a human body. I see people put their fingers through gel without even a starting hole....so it's like...okay?
Absolutely. I feel this offers a far more realistic end result.
A fan from the future has traveled back in time to say a great video, Thanks Sam.
New to 38, so my head is truly spinning with the variety of ammo. Crazy to see what they have
LOL. Going through my safe and discovered 3 boxes of this stuff that I must have bought a few years ago and forgotten about. It's a good day :)
Would fill a niche for those who only have a 38. Gotta love a hardcast bullet for penetration. Enjoyed the vid👍🏻
Thank you.
If Underwood can make 38 Special +p ammunition that performs like this, why can't Remington, Winchester, or Federal?
Only speculation, but I think its cost. I have dissected a lot of the mainstream .38's and what's in there is often the same powder and powder charge as their 9mm rounds. This way the companies that run 9mm constantly can leave the powder throw the same. Switching it up is time and money. Underwood is a small company not running millions of rounds. Easy to take time and make a good product for all their calibers.
NO, it is liability. Gun manufacturers are scared to FN death of lawyers (the scum of the earth)
@@SamofCR Bingo. The reason 357 is a longer case is so that it won't fit in a 38 spcl.
Liability. These are specialty rounds for dedicated enthusiasts, not for a mass market. These rounds would be specifically useful for hunters who wanted a powerful backup round for defense against wild board, bears, ect. These rounds are not for personal defense like the soft lead variety by the same company; they're not for home defense, as they don't mitigate over penetration, and they're certainly not for daily practice. Sold indiscriminately on the mass market, people would be putting these heavyweight rounds into their antique revolves and blowing them up, resulting in lawsuits. The box says .38 special, while most every other .38 special round yields ~ 200 lb/ft of energy, so these rounds are a surprise just waiting to happen for somebody.
I think it has to do with SAMMI specs
According to Underwood that 38 special +p round is suitable for hunting medium game. Some people call this load the "357 Short".
Yeah it probably would work well.
In a recent email from Underwood, they told me this round was rated at 1250 FPS thru a 6 inch barrel.
Velocity of their other 38 special Ammo is measured with a 4” barrel gun.
I shot one round of Underwood’s Keith load thru my 642 air lite j frame. That was the upper limit for me.
Much more pleasant to shoot in my steel model 64 K frame, which often accompanies me while walking in the woods.
It's funny because Underwood's .38 Special+P is more powerful than Buffalo Bore's, but then when it comes to their .357 Mag ammo such as the 180 gr hard cast flat nose, Buffalo Bore and Underwood's version are both 180 gr rated at 1,400 FPS. I tested both in my 4.12" S&W 686 here, the Buffalo Bore version gave me 1,387 FPS while Underwood's only gave me 1,221 FPS.
I suppose a tumbling projectile with enough energy behind it could be compared to a bullet that expanded to the same width as this bullet was long. Trouble is you can't depend on it tumbling predictably. Either way impressive results; credible video.
Short of bumping up to .357 Mag, it's mighty hard to come up with a more versatile/useful handgun chambering than .38 Special. Between the two of them, you're talking about the handgun equivalent of .30-06 - from snakes to two-legged goblins to deer to grizzly bear, there's a load for it.
matching muzzle velocity -"They might have used a six inch barrel!"
...or maybe they had no 3.5 yard gap between the muzzle and the chronograph.
Perhaps they had their muzzle right up to their chronograph. I've never seen you do that.
Thanks for the effort. I really dig all your videos, including this one!
True muzzle velocity is impossible with firearms with this chronograph. Either the flash will read at like 9,999 FPS, or the smoke will read at like 75 FPS. I don't know what ammunition factories use to rate velocity, but I do know from 5 yards, the muzzle velocity would be changed very little compared to the muzzle.
I bought Underwood bullets for my 9mm and my .380. They're a little expensive, but they hit hard!
Osprexx Underwood makes a .380 a viable CC option! 👍🏻
My wife purchased me a Taurus 605 for Christmas it has the custom trigger and hammer springs it also came with three different grips but had the hogue grips on it. I recently purchased the ATI scorpion X2 small frame grips and let me tell you they make a world of difference my whole hand fits perfectly. If you have bigger hands I strongly recommend the scorpion X2 small frame from ATI
I am sorry she got you a Taurus. She meant well.
@@wehrewulf you've been listening to too many stupid ass influencers, it's really hard to fuck up a revolver. Also seeing how most guns are CNC cut now most brands don't make bad guns. Unless it's some piece of shit Glock.
A good semiwadcutter is always a good defensive round.
My backup gun is the 2017 colt cobra. I love it, it's accurate.
Sounds like a nice revolver.
Gun Sam _Revolver Aficionado_
Yes it’s a nice pistol !!!
There you go! You got your subscribers back!.👍
Yes, hopefully they stay. I am what people call a "natural" subscription channel, as I don't do sub for sub, giveaways or fancy screen shots. If they had to recount or anything of that nature, I doubt i'd lose many subs.
I’d like to see this with the top 3 strongest .357 mag rounds. Well done! 👏🏼
This is a max powered 38 special. If you max power a 357 magnum it will beat it. 357 uses hotter powder and has more room in the case.
Very impressive velocity consistency and high velocity. The smoke is probably the bullet lube or coating. If you get errors on the chrony, back up a few feet. I have found that the muzzle blast causes error readings.
Excellent test procedure.
I got to order some of them a lot of FP ENERGY in it that is some real hot ammo good video Sam 👍
Thank you.
I have never heard of round this powerful for 38 special. I heard about the 135 grain which was said to be strongest. I think this must be newer round created.
i got one of each. useful test for me.
thanks for the numbers. no further guessing necessary.
Thanks for watching!
Great video and just goes to show us the range of power for any given caliber and why I don’t particularly pay too much attention when someone speaks in absolutes when they say one caliber is better than the other. 👍
Thank you. I deal with that a lot, people telling me things like "9mm is 400 lbs and .38 is 200, you're dumb if you carry a .38".
@@GunSam
My belief is, cartridge and or bullet choice is king. That's in hunting, long distance and self defense. For most all calibers.
Shot placement really matters and penetration you can be killed with any caliber
@@raymondruiz5188 Not a brown bear though, as this is sort of the situation it's intended for. Lesser rounds might not go through the ribs.
@@raymondruiz5188
Very true. I just take practice for a given, if you are serious about a weapon.
Thx for testing these. I had been eyeing some underwood and now I am more confident that they're good quality and would work for 2" barrel.
Thanks for watching.
My S&W 686+7 3" loves these!
Wow 38+p at 9mm FPS and 40 grains heavier. I carry the 3 inch and might start looking for some Underwood.
I just tested their bonded .38+P today but only in the 4" and that was nice as well. It has the 125 gr Gold Dot bullet and I got 1,075 FPS or so average for I think it was 320 ft lbs. I need to test it in the snub nose too. BTW their bonded 9mm 124+P gave me 1,207 FPS average in my 4" Ruger pistol and the 125 gr .357 Underwood bonded gave me 1,475 FPS average in the 4" 686, all pretty impressive. I recently tested their LSWCHP standard pressure 158 gr and again, very good performance and no smoke with that one.
Nice review! The avg velocity & fpe out of the 4" is impressive. They're probably not something I would use for edc, but I'm sure they would be worthy to keep around for general purpose needs.
Thank you. They fill the niche pretty well.
I've heard people actually say that a 38 is weaker than a 380, a 380 isn't much of a threat, and a 9mm is a poor substitute for a rifle. I on the other hand, wouldn't want to have any kind of lead pointed towards my body, and this 38 load is certainly no slouch. However, my line to people is usually "You can kill the CRAP out of someone with a 38 dude"
.38 Special has many load levels, but the key is +P. At standard pressure you're lucky to top 250 ft lbs in a 4" barrel with typical more like 200. With +P, going up to 20,000 PSI you start to average 280 ft lbs for the regular old +P loads like Winchester or Remington, and with the right powder you get 300, 400, 500 ft lbs. The 9mm is fine, but I hear a lot of "9mm is as powerful as .357 Magnum". Well, I finally tested the Buffalo Bore 115 gr 9mm+P+ load in a full 5" barrel and it was like 550 ft lbs. Not bad, but Buffalo Bore 125 gr .357 is 800 ft lbs in my 4" revolver. The .380 is fine, but the .380 is actually in the real world the power level people SAY the .38 Special is. Something like 150 to 250 ft lbs even in a 3" to 4" barrel.
I love these types of videos. Nice work!
Just a guess, but I suspect the bullet traveling through the shorter barrel didn't pick up as much spin as it did through the longer barrel, due to the shorter transit time and slightly lower velocity. As a result, it lacked the stability to prevent it from tumbling once it met some resistance. Just my theory.
Yep... It says "no subscribers" on your homepage even though I'm subscribed and the bell icon is selected. Got to love youtube
It comes and goes. Its back to normal at the moment.
That is an impressive round. Thanks.
Thanks for watching. Its fun to show what's rarely seen with a .38.
Those are some smokin' hot velocities from a snub-nosed revolver. I've loaded some 180 grain hard-cast lead flat nosed bullets for .38 special, and they kick like the proverbial mule out of a Taurus 605. Not fun to shoot at all. Liked your vid - nicely done. Cheers.
I use Underwood Ammo in my little LCR. They offer a hard cast full wadcutter that's not a reduced target load, it's full power, just under +P level. This adds a whole new level of effectiveness to the .38 Special. That WILL penetrate to the vital organs & cut it's way through getting there. I have a high level of confidence in the round if I'm unfortunate enough to have use them.
I have had a few people tell me about that one. I think they could go to ultimate awesome if they loaded that backwards as it wouldn't over-expand being so hard but still expand some. I think Atomic ammo is the only brand to offer something like that. But regular wadcutter would be good too as they seem to just move straight even after glancing off of something.
@@GunSam well Sam, that's an old reloading trick, but I'll stick with the wadcutters loaded full power like Underwood does it. They would definitely penetrate to vital organs cutting through everything on the way. I imagine quick follow-up shots wouldn't be much of an issue. I must add that I truly hope I never have to use that ammo.
*I've got the 1200 fps 125 gr solid copper underwoods in my 38+p smithy 14.7 oz neked 360J for carry and around the house and thats about as hot as I would wanna go. I also got a box of their solid copper 95 gr 1300 fps 38+p and I only shot one of those 😂*
I know this is an old video & you may not remember , do you think it's possible the bullet skidded on the rifling & didn't get the full spin speed ? If the rifling was shallow and or the coating was stripped off VS locked in the rifling ? Some will skid for a bit then lock in , but with a very short barrel , it may not have locked in very well . One sign would have been on the bullet , I think you may see some of the engraving is narrow ( Normal ) & some are wide = the skid . You may also see leading in the barrel , more than normal for hard cast flat base , normal = likely very little ?? If I were to buy a 38 for carry I would get a >> SIX > 9mm , 40 S&W , 45 acp . I think that frame could take full power rounds well >> ua-cam.com/video/LT8d5qni9vg/v-deo.html
I honestly dont know
Nice ! Gonna check out them Underwoods.
Almost as powerful as that Samson! LOL. That Samson scares me.
@@GunSam lol... In a good way or a bad way ???
Been bringing your vids. I've seen you around in comments in the past. I like your testing!
Thank you, I was looking for a test like this.
Just shot 15 rounds of this yesterday through my Airweight 637 snubby. Holy moly! It wasn't fun at all. It was hard to keep a follow-through. My right hand is still sore.
Sam, any chances you could explore wadcutters for the defensive purposes? Including the hollow base ones and their impact on the structure of the gun.
I have done a little work with wadcutters and inverted ones, but not much on them in awhile.
Packing something like this would clearly enable you to protect yourself against a javelina on a 3 day crack binge that just got evicted from it's government housing unit.
In Alaska we just have girlfriends to throw at any threat while we run away with our dogs, trucks, and guns to live another day
Interesting, I never knew they had this but it seems to get good penetration!! Awesome video Sam!👍👍
Thank you. It's a funny niche round but usable.
They have a new coating now. Bought some the other day. Awesome. Good for bear defense.
Nice. I'm really torn between 38 special and 357 right now. I'm getting a 3" so this is nice to see I'd probably be high 400s in FTLB. and I imagine a 357 in 3" would be unbearable to shoot.
I've got a 3" Ruger sp101 and pop off .357s all day. That little tank with Pachmayr rubber really mitigates the recoil.
I load some spicy .38 spl. hy-tec coated 158 grain Acme bullets but I don't think I have reached 1200 fps yet. But they are fine shooters out of the mods 60, 66 snubbys and mod 19 and gp100. It was big fun to watch your demonstration, one more fine Gun Sam video.
Thank you.
520 ft/lbs is high end .40 / .45 and low end 10mm and .357 territory. You are the first reviewer I've heard mention the "different" smell of the UW powder.
Wow! Don’t believe I want to shoot that out of my 340PD. Another great video Sam.
Thanks. It's some serious stuff.
Gun Sam _Revolver Aficionado_ I’ve been using Remington (+P) 110 HTP in my 340PD b/c it’s easy to control, comes in 50 round boxes and is easy to find around here.
1,100 fps out of a 2 inch barrel? That is pretty much a testament to this company's ammo.
It did well, however I have had issues with some of their other ammo, 250 FPS lower than rated velocity with some of it, even in a 4" barrel that far below.
It’s all about selecting the most efficient powder for a given bullet weight. Powders these days are pretty good. Out of my Glock 33 357 Sig with a 3.4” barrel I can get 1380 fps with a 125 gr bullet with my reloads.
Thank you.
Love this 38. Load. I'd feel comfortable carrying it in light woods areas. Deer, medium sized pigs, coyotes. I think it'd even defend against a bear. But I'd rather have the 180 grain 357. Just to be sure
They all laugh at me for carrying my 1950s vintage mint stock .38 blue smith chiefs special model 36.
Then we all go to the range and i almost get the same groupings as them. Them being my group of friends with their 9mm sigs, glocks...
I carry my dads old "chief" it is stock, maybe a little polishing of trigger parts, and it still shoots just fine, just has holster wear on the frame, from "protecting and defending" for over 20 yrs. I've been asked if "that old gun was still safe to shoot?" they stop asking when they see the groups. new is not always better, It was the first handgun I ever shot, and lets me feel as silly as it may be, like dad is still here.
I don't know if Buffalo Bore makes a 38 special version of this round or not, but they make a 180gr 357 LFN slugs. Those things are the best 357 rounds I've ever seen. Granted it's a Taurus, but my shooting just a couple cylinders of that fucked up my Taurus 605 (5 shot J frame size 357 mag). Every time I got to the same chamber when I pulled the trigger it wouldn't go back, but if I let off and pulled again then it would go. I put some empty casings in it and worked it out in a couple days, but damn those rounds are powerful! I love them. That's what I have in my 605. I keep it at home for home defense purposes so I don't have to turn over one of my nice Smiths to the police if I ever need it lol. I love revolvers. Grew up shooting and hating them and now it's about all I own.
Sounds like you have one chamber that's slightly tighter. I have seen hot rounds do this, especially when loaded in regular non nickel plated brass. The expansion of the brass in a tight chamber causes all sorts of issues like that.
Great video. What distance do you zero your sights on your revolver?
I honestly don't really sight them in. They typically shoot fine how they come, but I do sometimes do micro adjustments and as long as at 7 yards they are on, i'm good with that.
@@GunSam thanks. I’ll try 7 yards then. Appreciate the reply👍
I bought a box of this years ago for my LCR .38. I still have 15 rounds left, lol. It's pretty painful in the LCR.
1250fps isn’t more powerful than a .357 magnum. You would have to have a 180 grain bullet to get that slow out of a .357. They can go up to 1650 fps with 125 grain bullets. Great test, great video; and I’ll have to grab some Underwood ammo!
it's been years since I watched my own video like this. But if I ever said 1,250 FPS in a 158 gr is more powerful than .357 Magnum, it generally is. The standard forever has been 125 gr at 1,450 FPS and 158 gr at 1,240 FPS from 4" barrels.
I thought I would mention something relevant here. The Remington HTP 158 gr SJHP .357 Magnum round I spoke of is no slouch, it's a full house Magnum round. Here's how this 158 gr .38 Special round compares in 5 shot averages:
In the 4" 686 the Remington .357 Mag gave me 1,240 FPS/539 ft lbs energy. The Underwood .38 SPL gave me 1,217 FPS/520 ft lbs energy.
Here's the funny part, in the 2" Taurus the Remington .357 Mag gave me 1,103 FPS/427 FPE while the Underwood .38 SPL gave me.....1,103 FPS/427 FPE.
What's interesting is that in the snub nose the .38 Special had less recoil than the .357 Mag. I suspect this is because the .38 Special is "less" powerful and achieved it's extra velocity from the bullet not being jacketed so it's "slipperier" in contrast to a copper jacket. So less going on in the gun with the same effect on target as far as energy is concerned.
This is just speculation. But the shorter case of the 38 SPl probably allowed for a smaller powder charge and greater efficiency. The muzzle pressure was probably lower and that would lead to less felt recoil. Either way, that was a very impressive load. Don't want to be in the way of that freight train.
also Sam your using less powder in the 38spl case vs a .357 magnum case so less powder same velocity and i bet that powder charge is just touching the bottom of that lswc bullet.
The .357 needs a longer barrel to realize the increase, that’s kind of why I laugh at people suggesting a 357 magnum snubnose revolver, not only will the muzzle blast blind you at night, you will be completely deaf for a while with really no gain.
@@humpy936 You've never fired a magnum with a short barrel at night, have you? If you did, you wouldn't be saying that. One, the muzzle blast, while impressive, is not bright enough to kill your night vision. Two, even though you do get a lot of recoil and lose a lot of energy, a 2" .357 magnum is still throwing a heavier bullet faster than a 9mm+P. The only way a 9mm can really come close is if you shoot it through a service length barrel and use a short barrel loading on the 357.
Fudmottin
You’re funny, of course I have or I wouldn’t have mentioned it, it damn well sure does destroy your night vision, it makes you deaf for a while also, don’t know where you got the 9 mm bullshit because I never even mentioned that, were comparing 357 versus 38 special.
By the way same goes for 44 magnum versus 44 special out of a snubby.
Great video excellent information in the round
Thank you.
So they have a 180 grain .357 round rated at 1400 fps muzzle velocity with 783 ft pds of energy. That's crazy.
Not for me lol
I have used them in a Rossi 92, Marlin 1894. In the levers they do not feed well due to OAL of the round being a bit too long for the lifters to cycle properly. The 180gr loads will not fit in the 1873 lever rifle lifter at all, to long.
I do know of some guys who had Winchester 94's in .357 and used the 180's without any issues. The 94 had a bad reputation with shorter rounds and reliable cycling and they are not that common now.
Sledgehammer rounds. It's almost like those Super Police rounds, but faster. Thank you Mark C.
That's what happens when it hits a bad guy in the pump as well it splatters back just like shooting a stack of bottles . No if ands or butts left standing . I was using 38' Smith & Wesson police special with a 4.5 " inch barrel. It's the best 38' I've ever shot for sure . It was actually my Duty weapon , even though I purchased it myself and had it griped and weighted etc. Myself .
Model 15?
I have noted that if you take handgun projectiles penetration in water jugs in inches and multiply by .66 or 2/3, you'll be pretty close to penetration depth in ballistic gelatin. I've no idea what your baloney and particle board pack does to penetration, but it's not a bad idea.
I thank you for your good work in championing the .38 special, the greatest cartridge.
Be encouraged to get more pieces in .38 special only. Too many people do not appreciate a special chambered gun because they can’t imagine themselves w/o magnum capability. I will not change their minds.
But since you already love this cartridge and you already have a .357, there’s no reason not to.
I have a Smith model 67 and love it. This K-frame is a monster for the caliber but can take a steady diet of any .38 you would want to feed it. I’ll be getting custom grips and cutting the cylinder for moon clips. It would handle light magnum were it magnum chambered, but the shorter chamber is obviously more ideal for .38.
Also just purchased the Colt Night Cobra, and I think I’ll enjoy it. And my holy grail gun would be a Colt DS stainless model SF-V1 with bobbed hammer, .38 only, of course.
But if you like .357 and want to get another that hurls .38 particularly well (accuracy is seldom discussed but should be discussed a lot more in these conversations) look no further than the Smith 640 pro. I call that piece the best .38 spl. that is not a .38 spl.
I hear ya. I had made a video discussing what a ".357 Magnum" is vs a "gun chambered for .357 Magnum". Basically some are in .357 Magnum simply because the metallurgy allows for it, but these type of small revolvers are really a .38 Special than "can" fire a .357 Magnum if needed, but not many people are going to like the 15 ft lbs of recoil energy in their hand with a .357 Mag vs 5 ft lbs recoil energy of a 9mm or .38 Special.
Yes, I watched your other video and it’s right on. Perhaps you could up the ante and make a vid on reasons to get a .38 special only revolver. Don’t expect too many people to read between the lines of your .357 video.
@@jonathanvaughan453 It's an interesting concept as lets say a snubby, a .38 Special+P is right at the level needed for just enough. Like, .38 Special usually will not both penetrate well and expand, but usually a .38 Special+P will both penetrate and expand well, just that little extra of about a 125 gr HP going from 800 FPS to 900 FPS makes a huge difference. Beyond that there's only maybe 2-3 reason for .38 Special only. One, frame materials to make them light and inexpensive, two- the .38 Special as opposed to .357 Magnum is really what should be used because the .38 Special is a normal round, not am uncontrollable magnum, and three the psychological idea of using .38 in a .357 or .44 Special in a .44 Mag etc is difficult for some people.
I can think of a fourth: not all .357s will throw .38s as accurately as a .38. I’m sure you know the ballistics of this. So when purchasing a .357 the buyer would do well to inquire of its design and accuracy. A reputable maker with a precise forcing cone is an excellent start.
This, and your first point of just enough is actually an attractive feature. There is something about having no more gun than needed. Or maybe that’s just attractive to me.
I’ll let you know what I think of my new Cobra when I’ve picked up and have had the chance to shoot (I live in CA and we have a waiting period).
Nice edit. You might want to think about having both Patreon and UA-cam edits for your videos so that your patrons get some added value. Then mention that in your videos so that you can perhaps get more patrons to cover your costs.
I typically try to make one video, but what I been doing is hurrying up an edit and releasing it that day to Patreon, and then after the fact watching it critically and then making an edit that's better. Maybe a much longer Patreon one would make people curious, like where I still edit the frames correctly, picture in picture etc, but leave in the 10 minutes of resetting jugs, errors in speech I make and have to reword it and edit out the bad and all of that. Might give the people who do support, the idea of how much work it takes.
BTW: PPU .380 VS .38 Special, or Golden Saber .380 VS .38 Special first? Looks like that order will arrive in a couple of days. Personally i'm really curious about the PPU.
@@GunSam I'm curious about the PPU too. I think it was the cheapest JHP Target Sports had in 380 ACP and I *think* although I'm not sure it may be sold as the Monarch brand by Academy. Isn't that what some of the other Monarch ammo has been? I'm certainly interested in the Golden Saber too. I'm not sure the order matters. I don't know if you do a batch of tests in a day or if you make a larger number of trips. This could lead to my next paragraph.
Having a more "raw" cut on Patreon could work. Also you can say stuff that you would cut out later for your UA-cam upload. The only way to know if it works for you is to try it. To avoid having to heavy a workload, you might do a bunch of testing on a day and show some video for all of it in a "raw" Patreon video, or rough cut would be better. Then show your refined stuff with each individual test spaced out over time on UA-cam.
I'm looking around at other "premium" 380 ACP and this video inspired me to look at Underwood. They have a 380 ACP 90gr XTP bullet load: www.underwoodammo.com/collections/handgun-ammo/products/380-acp-90-grain-xtp-jacketed-hollow-point?variant=18785729478713. It only makes it up to 210 ft-lbs advertised. I've heard good things about XTPs when they can be thrown fast enough. If they can't, they don't open. So they seem to be very velocity sensitive. Light bullets are easier to push fast. Of course lighter bullets going fast are easier to stop and I don't know if this could make the third jug or 12" in 10% gel.
@@Fudmottin Typically when it's this time of year I will do just one test per trip so I don't mess anything up. Once winter hits and I have to plan the warmest day, than on those days I sometimes do 2 or 3 videos in one trip.
@@GunSam That makes sense. I'm back on a night schedule now, so I can't even go to the range. However, I did get my Altamont grips for my PPK/S today. I'm sure I can do an utterly boring video on that topic.