The Problem with Museums
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- Опубліковано 11 вер 2024
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Are museum collections ethical? How did these institutions end up with their vast array of artifacts and remains from every corner of the globe? Well, chances are there was some definite shadiness involved. Today, Danielle examines this complicated debate and looks closely at the cases of Saartjie Baartman and Chang and Eng Bunker. What do you think? Should objects be repatriated, left on display, or something in between?
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Created and Hosted by Danielle Bainbridge
Produced by Complexly for PBS Digital Studios
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Works Cited:
Neumeier E. Mediating legacies of empire in the post-imperial museum. History & Anthropology. 2019;30(4):406-420. doi:10.1080/02757206.2019.1611573
MacRae, Christina, Abigail Hackett, Rachel Holmes, and Liz Jones. 2018. “Vibrancy, Repetition and Movement: Posthuman Theories for Reconceptualising Young Children in Museums.” Children’s Geographies 16 (5): 503-15. doi:10.1080/14733285.2017.1409884.
Wilkins, Annabelle. 2018. “The Ethics of Collaboration with Museums: Researching, Archiving and Displaying Home and Migration.” Area 50 (3): 418-25. doi:10.1111/area.12415.
Bramlett, Katie. 2018. “Legible Sovereignties: Rhetoric, Representations, and Native American Museums.” Composition Studies 46 (2): 219-22. search.ebscohos....
Burritt, Amanda Maree. 2018. “Pedagogies of the Object: Artifact, Context and Purpose.” Journal of Museum Education 43 (3): 228-35. doi:10.1080/10598650.2018.1469909.
Gann, Jack, and Lauren Padgett. 2018. “Understanding the Victorians through Museum Displays.” Journal of Victorian Culture 23 (2): 170-86. doi:10.1093/jvcult/vcx016.
Lester, Peter. 2018. “Of Mind and Matter: The Archive as Object.” Archives & Records 39 (1): 73-87. doi:10.1080/23257962.2017.1407748.
Sex Museums: The Politics and Performance of Display Jennifer Tyburczy
Duncan F Cameron “The Museum, a Temple or the Forum”
Clifford, James. “Museums as Contact Zones.” Routes: Travel and Translation in the late 20th Century. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1997.
Macdonald, Sharon. A Companion to Museum Studies. Malden, MA ; Oxford: Blackwell Pub., 2006. Blackwell Companions in Cultural Studies ; 12. Web.
Monstrous Intimacies Christina Sharpe
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Professor: “How did England get such great and filled museums”
England: “The secret ingredient is crime”
Really annoys me how you spelt secret
James Sorry English isn’t my first language thanks for pointing it out
@@yaqub5447 no worries, didn't mean to be rude
@Luís Filipe Andrade conquest is just a pretty word for going to foreign lands and stealing their wealth and natural resources.rape is just a pretty word for forcefully fucking a person 🤮
@@James-ip8xs and yet you were🤦🏽♀️
I think about how the parthanon museum in Athens has big empty displays with signs saying something along the lines of "This is where we would display the sculptures from the parthanon if the British museum would give them back to us." And I think that example really drives home some of the unethical nature of museums, because the British museum can't even argue that they are preserving the artifacts better when the Greeks have a spot in their own museum to put them.
No that doesn't count, it isn't African
ilovebats10 The Greeks wouldn’t look after them properly, just look at their economy or plates on a dinner table, greeks break shit
@Speaking Truth Really? Where's your evidence that's the case? Not some random anecdote btw, but actual numbers showing all or even most of the stuff they've returned has been "destroyed, lost or sold off".
@@ByddinRhyddidCymru the dish breaking thing is only meant for certain situations. We dont break our dinner plates. They are specific plates for breaking.
@@spuilloh2637 the greek artifacts were stolen from them by the turkish and the British bought it from them.
They literally cut up Baartman's corpse to investigate her as a missing link between animal and human......really think about that for a second.
After an adult life stripped of all human dignity, she wasn't even be allowed to die with some.
I know that history is full of this stuff and worse, but that one just really gets to me.
Ugh, it's enough to make your stomach turn...
🤷yolo?
Who owns a corpse? I think this is a question at the center of the entire debate over her body. I think Vsauce made a video about the subject.
I love when people act as if they arent animals “Devine purpose”
@@diegogonzales6447 In a legal sense it probably does center on that, but morally I think the center of the issue is this was someone stolen in life. Now that we as a society think that's unacceptable, it should be an easy fix to make. I'll have to check out the other video because idk how that could even be a debate in this day and age.
I love how every time Killmonger made a good point, they had him murder someone to remind you he was the bad guy.
Wesley Morgan he had some good and interesting ideas, but his methods were awful. That’s what makes him an interesting villain.
He was a good guy I wanted him to spread the war.... I wanted to see the reactions
Yeah, his character didn't make much sense. I think the writers were wanting to make some ethical points about this world and for some crazy reason had this villian be the spokesman.
Wesley Morgan Some of his points were good points it’s just that his plans to enact his ideals were really stupid.
questionable politics in that movie, having the guy who's based on and inspired by the actual black panthers be a crazed terrorist while the hero's arc is literally to collaborate with the CIA... big side-eye
It depends. There are many museums in my country, and due to the fact that my country did not invade any other country in it's history, our collections are entirely from our own cultures. The problem lies when imperialistic countries keep artifacts that were stolen or trafficked. Mexico has been asking Austria to give back Moctezuma's headdress for years, and the argument is that Mexico cannot possibly care for the object like they can. Wrong and patronising.
Imo in that situation Austria should give it to a Mexican museum, tell them how they've been keeping it preserved or just trust Mexico to be able to care for it's own property, for they currently do have museums and obviously know how to care for artifacts. Lol
Are you trying to say that Mexico never invaded anyone?
Wasn't it founded by invading Spanish armies? And before that, are you trying to say that the Aztecs were peace loving?
I agree that the French don't have a claim on indigenous art, but I'm not sure that the "powers that be" in Mexico actually represent the indigenous people either... After all, Mexico was founded by the very people that tried to wipe out those first Americans' way of life.
Lol, just like the USA:)
If course, if there is a specific Aztec run museum that you're talking about, I take all of this back:)
@Abidjanaise So the LAND is the rightful owner? I don't think I was clear about my point:
I'm pretty sure it would be going to a group of humans. And would it actually be the Aztecs? Or the Europeans who stayed in Mexico?
It's not like Mexico gave back all the Aztec land, or that the Aztecs are have sovereign nation anywhere. The people in power in Mexico generally are not their descendents.
Again, wouldn't we just be returning the artifacts to thieves who now call themselves Mexican?
If someone invades my house and kicks me out of it, I don't think he deserves to keep my stuff, too! Just because he now has my address doesn't mean he is entitled to my TV.
@Abidjanaise I agree it should be given to a Mexican museum to care for being it is important to them as a sacred piece of their history. But if the culture has no desire for the return of said artifact i believe it should stay in museum to promote education of that cultures history and customs to others looking to learn. Of course with the country or culture or origin being in involved with the latter.
Also it's awful to generalize ALL Europeans (anyone for that matter) in you're comment as one thing or another. I wouldn't think youd like to generalized.
@Abidjanaise No need to be hostile! There is no call for that. You are disagreeing with me, and I'm not telling you to shut up. I'm trying to understand your viewpoint, even though you are completely ignoring mine.
I do agree that if all other things are equal, then a geographically convenient location for the Aztec descendents has merit.
I'm not sure why you can't understand my point:
My point was that "Mexico" was not the owner of the item. "Mexico" was another nation complicit in destroying the people to whom it belonged.
I’m Nigerian and went to a museum to other day, like 50% of the artefacts were “acquired” by the British empire from my country
Lmao stay mad
@@bitcoinzoomer9994 with a solar flare Bitcoin is worthless
@@VincentGonzalezVeg and bank accounts too, so that is kinda moot.
@@bitcoinzoomer9994 cringe
@@bitcoinzoomer9994 shut up beans on toast
I'm from South Africa, the fact that Saartjie's body was kept in a museum kinda breaks my heart. I'm so glad she got burried here.
Me too! It is horrifying what she endured during her lifetime. She at least deserved to be brought home; I'm glad she is home now.
En raai wie het dit veroorsaak
Im american and have no idea who you're talking about but that
That sounds horrible ;-;
I just got to the part explaining it, what the actual frick
Was she from a tribe?
Native Americans have been asking for spiritual and ancestral artifacts back since Europeans arrived.
And that's bullshit. They need to have their ancestral items back.
Okay cool, and?
Ruben De la Cruz they deserve to have their property return to them.
Ruben De la Cruz Imagine if some shit heads set up shops in your house steal artifacts with significants to you and put them on display for tourists to gawk at
And Christians have been trying to get Constantinople back from Muslims, but that's not going to happen.
I’ve recently been to a museum in Cambridge and found their solution very clever - they returned the original items that had been unethically taken from the Sami people and then paid Sami artists to recreate those items for the museum. I thought that was a great approach because it actively supports the culture and its peoples, and at the same time still allows people who cannot travel to Norway to still learn about that culture. However, the downside of course is that museums unfortunately don’t have much money, so they probably cannot afford to do that for all their artefacts.
LOVE IT! I worked in museums for many years and minored in art history during college, so this conversation came up numerous times. Personally, I'm not opposed to having accurate replicas in museums and repatriating the originals to the places of origin, as long as they are clearly indicated as replicas.
As a museum specialist, I totally agree. Museums in North America are more focused on the narrative than the artifacts but in Europe, it's still not the case. Just looking at the British Museum or the Louvre, they still rely on the aesthetic of the artifacts rather than the interpretation.
Does anyone know how many countries do NOT charge to visit museums? I confess that I’ve only visited a few “Natural History” type museums & only in a handful of different countries. If memory serves, England is the only place that entrance was free (& only in some museums/galleries)
What a nice idea.
exactly! I was thinking about replicas too, and with the new 3d printing technology it would be even easier to make extremely accurate replicas and return the originals to the rightful owners. this would also be great for the pieces themselves (because they would be safe from light and air exposure)
and to some iconic pieces, museums could colab and do a "world tour", that would make them even more special
That's what I think should be done with the Elgin Marbles specifically, but many other things could also be replicated. These days, they could make a replica that looks so authentic, you wouldn't know to look at it. But I think the British Museum is too greedy about it, the Marbles bring in a lot of tourists. Even without an entry fee, tourists always spend money. They've also spent a lot of money preserving them, promoting them, insuring them, etc. I think museum directors forget that we are just passing through the lives of these great objects. We only take care of them briefly. Any museum is only a passing thing to the Elgin marbles, they will likely remain until the end of human life. So the Museum is being too precious about it. The point is to learn and gain wisdom from things like the Marbles, but the Museum is so mightily worried about having the originals. The money is more important than the ethics of it, as usual.
I'm an art historian. My personal view as that each item (or sometimes, collections of items that go together) should be evaluated on a case per case basis. Human remains and sacred objects should be given highest priority. Sometimes, there is no community left to return objects to, sometimes there is. Often, objects are displayed with no context and stripped of any meaning. So many things in museums were obtained through looting or other shady means, it's hard to even estimate their numbers. But it's only ethical to try and correct at least some of these wrongs. Some people worry that our museums will empty out, and there will be nothing left, but that clearly won't be the case. If the past was a mad obsession with collecting at any cost, the future can be rectifying mistakes, ethical means of displaying what we have, returning things that make sense to return, and building relationships with the cultures that provided those objects.
Well said
@ Any stolen objects are morally wrong, especially when it means an entire culture was destroyed. I don't know where you're trying to go with this fantasy scenario. History happened the way it happened. I don't deal in impossibilities.
@@shariwelch8760You feel like that just because you are ignorant.
@ I'm ignorant? That's a laugh. "My opinion" that objects should be evaluated on a case by case basis is already being implemented by museums, so I don't know why you think it wouldn't be valid. You have some airy-fairy ideas about how the world runs. Go talk to some people from these cultures that you are fantasizing about, and ask them what they think about your ideas of their cultural objects and how they should be treated and where they belong. Until then, you're just an asshole rando on the internet with no valid opinion
@ Item are evaluated by museum curators and people from the area the artifacts came from, or descendants of the people who made the artifacts. That's why it has to be case-by-case. Sometimes there are descendants, sometimes there aren't. Sometimes we listen to people coming from that country if there are no cultural descendants. And they try to come together to decide the most ethical solution to handling stolen property.
This video could be summarized in a line from Disney’s movie Atlantis the lost empire. When Milo protests how commander Rourke is willing to steal the Atlantian life force crystal, Rourke responds with something along the lines of “come on Milo, as an academic you should understand that if you returned every stolen artifact in a museum, you’d be left with an empty building”. I’m 22 now but that line stuck out to me as an 11 year old.
Here’s the link to the clip: ua-cam.com/video/UP18jR-nLeA/v-deo.html
thought that said the Albanian life force crystal
Shout out to Tab Murphy, an absolute legend of a human being and (co?) writer of Atlantis.
Thankfully, that's not the case with most museums
Right on point with your example
I'm pretty sure that in this day and age, it's possible to recreate models of most stolen artifacts and return those original stolen artifacts to their rightful owners without having to sacrifice the quality of the exhibits as long as the correct context is given. As such, nobody would necessarily have to be left with an "empty building" even today for the sake of making humanity right as long as an effort is made to ensure that both parties get what they want to a reasonable extent.
I never did consider the ethics of musuems until that scene in Black Panther. Huh. Thank you for the info!
Honey Queen ikr. Makes u question a lot of things now...
Same actually!
Just another example out of many, how powerful and important *Black Panther* is. When a movie starts to effect our reality/real life. It's only more proof, why that movie is so *special.* Wakanda Forever.
WAKANDA FOREVER
I did once I learned about Sarah Baartman. Literally had human remains on display because they were in awe of a black woman's curves. She was even paraded around like a circus freak before she died.
People want to say colonialism was long time ago when it is not the case. If we look at them by generations rather than years, history is pretty recent. For instance, my grandparents were born under colonialism and most of them are still alive.
When I saw a French documentary about human zoos, I couldn't help but wonder. Is one of my ancestor's remains locked in a closet of an European museum ?
What I think about this is that they definitely should get repatriated. When 90% of African cultural heritage is not in Africa, there's a huge problem.
Personally in my opinion artifacts should be kept in a country that will take care of that artifact and make sure its safe while also making donation to the country that artifact is from. And alot of countries in africa are very corrupt and have civil wars so many artifacts would not be safe.
My father was born in the final years of colonialism. it is so recent.
@Valerie Faye. I wholeheartedly disagree. It is not the responsibility of the countries that stole the artifacts to decide how they should be cared for. The belief that the direct descendants of the people who created the artifacts will not care for them is patronizing. People should give back what was stolen/"unethically acquired"
Alex N. Even if it is your ancestor, it’s not you, so don’t worry about it
@@tav7312 Ma'am, the thief should not have a say on the stolen goods. Simply put.
South African here , Nelson Mandela asked for Sarah remains and she was brought to her native land in the Eastern Cape and was buried by her descendants
This is exactly the type of conversation people who like museums need to be having. Past mistakes need to be openly acknowledged, the public needs to be educated, and better practice/updated procedures need to be put in place. There’s absolutely a need for museums, but problematic acquisition practices of the past need to be left there...in the past.
These were usually acquired during war times, unless they wanna go to war for these items back it's not worth it
Hara Yanto Not necessarily. Illegal excavation and looting have been and still are ongoing problems. Many collectors, including museums, are guilty of knowingly acquiring looted or illegally exported artifacts. Aside from times of war, as you mentioned, there is still the issue of colonization and best way to address this issue going forward, within the context of this conversation of course.
@ what I'm getting from your rant is that humans have been doing terrible things since the dawn of time and therefore there is no need for current generations to strive to be better than their predecessors and rectify the wrongs said predecessors inflicted on other peoples.
@ oh, just another pseudo-intellectual wanking on UA-cam, then. Carry on.
After here in switzerland we have the ethnographic museum where pieces from the world has been sent , those pieces are gifts from governments or stuff (like we have a traditional hawaiian tribe feather cape that has been donated by an hawaian or multiple traditional buddhist pieces thatbhas been donated by mongolian government) i think it should all go from the donation of the will of the people who owns the pieces
the moment when you go to the British Museum and see huge China plates broken into pieces for transportation. people died making those plates. and the oldest chinese painting damaged beyond repair because the brits didn't know how to preserve Chinese paper. they only display it two months out of twelve I believe. and there I was in a foreign country checking the calendar to see if I can glimpse at a piece of my own culture. while also learning that some British young don't even know about the opium wars.
I was hoping to watch a video about this, artifacts taken from cultures and political entities that have a continuty today like china korea or japan
they have walls of holy sites in south asia i repeat WALLS
Thats probably cause of the school system being as bad everywhere I guess I don't know what that is either but I live in Australia so I might not even know it even if I did get taught stuff more.
Wow this is horrible!!!
@@poliestotico japan has its own share of loot as a culture of piracy, later inperialist, country.
Korea? Our museums are filled with only our stuff.
Easy answer
Just make replicas and display those
That's how countries like ours handle artifacts
Countries that aren't sigma enough to conquer
@@bitcoinzoomer9994 Our Sigma Male Grindset is to not rob other nations blind just to keep our struggling economy upright that only happens to be in that state due to a sigma male grindset.
@@ilikestuff9250 what county would this be? cause i would be shocked to find a county that didnt have a shady history
@@wtf1a1a this
@@wtf1a1a also curious
What? No mention of Indiana Jones breaking into a temple to steal an idol and take to a museum?
...the opening of Raiders of the Lost Ark suddenly got really, _really_ shady.
He's white why would they mention him, plus Indiana Jones didn't question it like Killmonger, also Tomb Raider if we're at it
Indiana Jones is just the middle man it’s his employers who are shady
I guess the redeeming part of Indiana was his reward was the education such artefacts offered instead of a large chunk of money, we see that many of his companions and workers who valued the money more than the education didn’t have a good outcome on their life.
@@Hhhh22222-w Here's the difference. One of those people wants to take over the world for their race. And the other 2 uncover ancient artefacts from long dead civilisations.
0:02 “If your a big old history nerd like me?”
Answer: Yes
*you're (contraction of "YOU aRE")
"Your" is for possession.
@@alvallac2171 It's people like you that push others into being serial killers.
I read the title as "The problem with Muslims" and had to double take, that would have been a very different video
Im glad im not the only one 🤣
lol as a muslim this made me laughed
Sounds like the title of a PragerU video
@@blueluma6187 probably is one
I THOUGHT THE EXACT SAME OMG lmaooo
I literally can’t be the only person who immediately thought of just making replicas and then just giving the originals back. I seriously doubt people will care too much that those particular pieces aren’t the real ones.
And maybe look to purchase the pieces from their areas of origin with large donations. I’m sure some of the poorer nations would rather get large sums of money to build important infrastructures (like hospitals and ways of obtaining clean drinking water) than have a single object returned. But of course that would have to be their choice to sell them.
The Victoria and Albert museum in London has cast replicas for much of its displays. It's collection also contains a large assortment of interesting artifacts from the actual country its located in, which in my opinion makes it better than most the cosmopolitan art history museums around the western world.
some of the Latvian museums display reconstructions of the original items found in the ancient burial sites. It's a good way to show the visitors how their ancestors lived because they get to see something as it was when it was still new and in use. Seeing rusty, warped, and broken blades is not nearly as exciting as seeing the sword the way it might have been when the warrior was still alive.
I was able to see the recreation of King Tut's tomb; the level of detail and precision was insane, I still found myself marveling over everything.
Museums bring in lots of currency and capitalism for these countries and not as many ppl will want to see the replica, they would plan trips to the other locations to see the real... this could transfer forms of wealth to many of these poorer countries and nations if they choose to display the items themselves.
@@cairawilliams93 You're wrong, Caira. Very few people who travel, travel exclusively for museums, and people that do travel for these reasons, are either academics, or they already travel to historical sites.
Let's just call those colonial museums "loot galleries".
They are loots
Haha thats so true. Never thought of it like that.
Lol! Brilliant!😄
AMEN!
Word.
The fact that Britain has the Greek artifacts in the first place is a problem. The British have done nothing but appropriate Ancient Greece and Egypt. Britain historically had nothing to do with Greece, it’s not "oh we’re descended from western culture and we’re European" they have nothing to do with us. I’d rather have Turkey hold our artifacts seeing as Greek culture was historically just as much in Asia Minor as mainland Greece. And many modern turks are still descended from Greeks.
The UK does keep them safe though. A lot of the nations that the UK lotted from were and are in turmoil so, yeah.
@@billcipherproductions1789 Boy what are you talking about? We are not in turmoil, we literally have empty spaces in our museums, Egypt has just built one of the biggest museums in the world too. Britain just loves to steal things from other countries, why don’t you guys celebrate your own history and culture and stop stealing others? Significant artifacts belong in their homeland. End of conversation
Ikr. And tfw on our 200th year freedom anniversary Britain was like "congrats, btw we're never giving your shit back"
Venice did it better, cope and seethe
It is very sad that if you visit the Akropolis - Original parts of pillars and statues are in England - this shit is messy af
Baartman’s story is so nightmarish that it’s almost unreal. May she R.I.P.
_Storm the British Museum, they can’t colonise all of us_
*looks at history* Actually I think youll find we can
@@StinkyGoblin rise of nationalism and world war 2: Im about to end your whole career
@@crewmatewillthrowthesehand7600 nani!
@@StinkyGoblin ok, plant and grown your own food (do not import) manufacture your own clouths (not vietnam or china), manufacture everything and stop to outsource it, stop eating beans, corn, potato, tomato all from America Continent - Stop to eat garlic, onion, spring onions, and all food from abroad... and lets.
Stop to outsource and just eat and drink native food. Like... hum...carrots?
What you saying is rude and based in imperialism history that does not fit now a days!
unification, mix and respect, we are all the same boring humans!
Élcio Cruz do you have a flag?
Why does Egypt have the pyramids today?
Cuz the British couldn't carry them away 🤯
Lul
Legit, at this point i think that they would take the pyramids if they could, the same way France has Egypt's obelisk(i know they were given to france but i think you understand where im coming from, they are heavy and huge).
Because they couldn’t carry them away, the brits decided to colonize Egypt instead 😎
@@itchyro_ *exactly*
Even then the outer layers and capstones have been taken, though to be fair that wasn't to do with the British, apparently after being cracked after an earthquake they were taken to build mosques and fortresses or something like that
TLDR: Museums that respect the cultures' wishes and the artifacts, yes
The British Museum, no
The UK does keep them safe.
@@billcipherproductions1789 but it's still unethical
@@ainakbasu8398 But if it gets returned to their respective home countries, they will destroy it.
@@billcipherproductions1789 Not if its heavily guarded
@@ainakbasu8398 And do you think they'll do that?
Imagine someone stealing something and then saying you should have protected it better. 🙃 ok but you still committed a crime.
war isnt a crime
Brandon Mizon
theft is.
Besides most of the artifacts were stolen due to colonialism. Yes, there were wars. Most were brought by the colonizers as a way to take land, resources etc. It is good European countries today has moved past this and acknowledged that it was wrong. But now they have to make up for the damages they have caused. And judging by this, they haven't made it there yet.
@@janethebluemouse European countries aren't the only countries that colonised or had empires. we were just better at it than anybody else
Brandon Mizon so if someone stole the Declaration of Independence in a war then refused to give it back you’d just let it go cause they stole it fair and square?
Somehow I doubt it Hypocrite
It's usually a part of human history itself as a whole so I don't see a problem
Imagine getting your car jacked at gun-point and then when you go to the police they tell you that it was your responsability to protect yourself better 😂
LA in a nutshell
What are you talking about? Have you not heard of personal safety? Situational awareness? You better be careful who you try to jack in the US because you might get shot. That goes for the hood and the suburbs.
@@abeliiibecerra5281 bruh it's clearly an allegory for the way people have been treated after asking for the return of their rightful artifacts wtf are you on about
As though cops don't already do this... for nearly every crime committed against someone who isn't a white male...
Despite being white, when I was assaulted I was told "Next time be more careful"
Adding a controversy.
The Jikji is the first book printed in metal movable type, which beats out Gutenberg. It was wrongfully taken by the French National Library. Currently Korea is arguing it should be rightfully returned--it is a key cultural item of Korea and significant to the history. (Especially since Korea has the museum facilities to house it).
The French have (in my view wrongfully), claimed it is a "worldwide treasure that belongs to no one." in order to keep it within France.
While other texts have been repatriated, Jikji has not, mostly due to protests from the French National Library's librarians.
France has violent protests with property-damage all the time, sounds like such an unstable country can't look after priceless artifacts..
"Belongs to no one" proceeds to keep it 🤦♀️
WaveHello HAHAHAHAHAHHA there is gonna be a Strike against this comment hahhaahaha
Doesn’t surprise me. They still have sanctions on Haiti & charge their former African colonies for colonization. Also forcing (with threat of recolonization) those “independent “ African countries to keep their currency in the Bank of France.
BRING 직지 BACK
You are an amazing speaker. I love how you are able to just flow so easily in relating the subject matter. Thank you
And presented difficult subject matter at that. Very well done.
Yes! I always enjoy her presentations.
"Are museums ethical?"
Certainly not most European museums
Then again we can look into other museums in non European countries and see that they’ve taken things from places such as europe
@@GeeFreshman more like, "Things that left by European when they finally done colonialized us"
As soon as I saw the title I thought of the Benin bronzes. Like almost instantly
Says the literal communist lol
@@savagetv6460 what the fucking hell does communism have to do with anything that we’re talking about
Moctezuma's penach has been the target of a lot of strife.
It is displayed in Austria and Mexico wants it back.
True. I'm sure Mexicans would return Mozart' s piano if the Aztecs had conquered, enslaved and committed human sacrifices in Europe if the had gotten the technology (the same as they did to all tribes in the vast region of their empire in America. To bad when empires meet an even bigger empire. But the biggest one is the evil one, is it?, or is that a word that the last loser uses?)
Cristian Proust In your wild scenario you are right. It would be problematic the other way around. In the end of the day it is not okay for countries to keep and hold artifacts that they stole from a culture they conquered and exploited. Especially when the people asked for the artifact to be returned and the country holding it says that the original creators "couldn't care for it".
But here is where you are wrong: There is no such thing as a "sore looser". Colonialism was nasty and the effects are still being felt by the victims in it who had their land and culture taken away. And they should be compensated.
I respectfully disagree. For one, the “couldn’t care for it” is mostly directed to the fact countries such as Mexico can’t even deal with their gangs using their own military force. For seconds, even before colonialism every country that demands this compensation has either done the same thing in the past close to the timeline of the artifact itself, such as Alexander the Great “stealing” a lot of Asian artifacts, or they’ve simply committed crimes in wars of the past against fellow sovereign countries. Finally, close to the first point, a lot of these countries are quite unstable with their own problems. Weather or not it was caused by colonialism the fact still stands that due to internal problems these countries could have their artifacts destroyed.
@@newguy8288 while yes, Mexico is unstable because of cartels, we still have museums with artifacts and the Aztec pyramids that are preserved. Cartels aren’t targeting museums, so it would be wrong of you to assume that we can’t take care of objects with cultural significance. Especially when they are being kept in a country where it has no significance to their culture
@@newguy8288 a lot of colonizers got rich from stealing and selling stuff from people they murder or slaved, so yeah give it back
I have a love-hate relationship with museums as an indigenous man. The knowledge held within is wonderful and allowed me to be introduced to many of the cultural, spiritual and daily practices of my ancestors when I didn't have access to elders to teach me. For that I love them and am grateful.
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However, my people are still alive and we are trying to revive many of our traditional cultural practices. Museums tend to characterize indigenous peoples from a colonial viewpoint, and often don't acknowledge that we still exist, instead referring to our cultures in the past tense, furthering the government's goal of cultural genocide. We are NOT dead.
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When requesting that objects be returned, the so-called "stewards" of these objects, typically white academics with no personal ties to these cultures, believe we cannot adequately care for our sacred objects. Even while they take them apart, study them and put them crudely back together. Some indigenous groups still in negotiations with the Smithsonian today have only been allowed to "rent" their ancestors belongings and even remains for short periods.
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We hope that one day we can house our own cultural relics in permanent, living examples of our peoples and our histories.
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Thank you for this wonderfully informative video. Wela'lin.
The reason why they speak of indigenous people in past tense is because they were successful in converting most to Christianity; those that opposed were killed off, those left were swept under the rug. They've conquered and your people are no longer a threat to them.
we arnt even allowed to take pictures of the collection at the vatican, and the official story is it was giffted. disgusting
@@zamorapakalolo6699 I have some issues with the use of the word "conquered." It implies, even if only slightly, that there was a battle of equal sides. There was not. There were many strategies of genocide, including but not limited to starvation, theft of children, mass murder, relocation, religious and spiritual persecution, and biological warfare, among many others.
Though we've endured. And I would say we are becoming more and more a threat to them with every passing day... ;)
@@janmitchell3976 Disgusting and heartbreaking, disguising theft as stewardship and "care," though they did it with our children too so I can't say I'm surprised they did it to what they consider to be mere 'objects'. And speaking of children, so much of what was lost from many communities and many nations lies sleeping in those "artifacts" (I'd much rather call them relatives)... If we did have them back, their value as teachers to our children would be immeasurable.
I'm much more of the third camp. I have studied archeology and anthropology, and firmly believe we should learn all we can from not just ancient cultures, but still extant cultures, and help them preserve thier cultures. Maybe create duplicates of the items, and then send the original back, while maybe helping the original culture set up thier own museums, that way everyone benefits. There could be the added benefit that people can expand their cultural knowledge, and hopefully, one day, become more accepting of other cultures instead of wanting to destroy/change them
Hey, I work in a museum! And I agree with this video 100%. I'd also like to add (for those who don't spend much time in the museum world) that there are a lot of different kinds of museums out there. I think a lot of people have that stereotypical image of museums stuck in their heads- a huge, fancy, 100+ year old building filled with everything from dinosaurs to mummies. But most of us aren't like that. The museum I work for is a small, local museum focused on agriculture. But still, just like every other museum, we need to focus on doing things ethically.
The majority of our artifacts are farm equipment and household objects given to us by local families, very straightforward. We only have a few Native American artifacts and as far as I know they were all sourced ethically. Some years before I worked here, some human remains were given to the museum. The museum reported it to the tribe and gave her back to them. From there the tribe gave her a proper burial. I know that some people disagree with it, but it was the right thing to do.
@ What a defense! I should not be accountable for the murder I committed because as a human being you have the same potential to commit murder like I did. That's a hypothetical situation in the case of the second person. We deal with what HAS happened - not what COULD happen.
Miranda Al u clearly didn’t even read her comment lol. All she said was she works at an agricultural museum and all they have is rusty farm equipment, and ur out here drawing allegories to murder. Ik u feel really empowered cuz u just watched an educational vid but chill out
@@mirandaal4541 bruh did you even read the first sentence of her comment?
@@mercury6284 The first sentence of _whose_ comment? Now that you’re accusing me of not reading „her“comment, lemme accuse you of not reading properly. 😊 If you look again, you’ll notice that my comment was in reply to @Cristian Proust. That’s not a „her“! _His_ comment - Cristian Proust‘s comment - which I had replied to, has since been removed. You owe me an apology.🤔
There is also the fact that when the US waged wars of aggression in the Middle East, they stole many priceless artifacts, most notably from Iraq. Egypt to this day is demanding Germany return the Bust of Nefertiti. Its quite simple, really. Museums have no right to profit off of cultural artifacts that were obtained unethically. We live in the digital age. You can view pictures online. You can make replicas.
But there is constant war in the Middle East. Returning artifacts there endangers them.
@@natelogos7662 😐
Its better than having groups like Isis or the Taliban destroying artifacts because they are "unislamic"
Why should Berlin return it? Schliemann, the greatest german archiologist discovert it. Modern egyipt have nothing to do with the ancient one.
@@Gabriel-px8cv it’s like CPS, yeah you have no right to take them from their parents, but the parents might kill them.
I think it’d be a good idea if museums showed fakes of the pieces if possible, still shows the items and lets people learn but the museum’s just don’t keep the original
They do this to some extent. Only with things too large to carry. Trajan’s Column for example.
Simple solution: the colonial museums send back the ill-gotten artifacts to their home nation/territory, who make and send back replicas to display. If the argument of “the home nation lacks the means to care for the artifacts” actually rings true, then pay rent money for all artifacts from other nations for the price said nations decide. Thus allowing those wronged nations to make the money needed to facilitate proper artifact care and replication.
Better use of Western taxpayers money to let the home nations themselves pay for conservation and for the West to take care of the replicas including using original materials and techniques. That way, if the actual artifacts cannot be sustained by the home nations at least the knowledge of their age, original location and how they were made can be retained for global posterity
ill-gotten?. The Mexicans can ask Aztecs artifacts they made conquering, slaving, making human sacrifices?
The Greeks can ask their beloved objects when Alexander did the same in most Asia?.
Every single tribe that exist committed genocide,over others. There is not a single innocent soul. Only the last loser will call evil the last winner, pure pathetic moral relativism.
Most people would be saddened by replicas but mostly will not care after a few weeks
The issue we don’t take into account is embezzlement. We know that museums, particularly countries, have people who like to embezzle money, yet we decide to just hand them the money to pay back past wrongs? This is all built on promise and no real system. Replicas, however, are easier to work with, since you can’t secretly steal the only copy of- say a Greek statue, in Greece.
There also comes the point of some of these original countries either being in poverty, or in near-war conditions. That money would be better spent helping a humanitarian crisis than cleaning machines. The first and up until now only Spino skeleton discovered was bombed to dust in Germany during WW2. A warring country is a no-go since you can’t defend history from a bomb. If Britain went to war, we should bet all items be stored outside of Britain.
Okay, that is a brilliant idea, in fact that way you could make several replicas for different museums.
Yeah, British Museum should bring half of Greece back to Greece lol
You dont see her mentioning this either lol, the bias
@@Hhhh22222-w Whataboutism. You're the one with a bias
@GodF*ckdMyMom Nah dude hit it on the head. She's talking about ethical museum and their "artifacts" why does it matter to bring up Greek or African articles.
do not forget all the Italians artefacts...
The best Della Robbia's terracottas I ever saw were not in Florence, Pisa, Rome or Milan but in London, at the British Museum.
And a diamond on her crown in the middle was stolen from south Africa
As a museum and History lover, I never really thought about the ethics of museums and artifacts being in their country of origin. Mostly because I had a mindset of "as long as the history is preserved all is well" but after I dug more into the topic I now realize how important it is for these artifacts to stay by their rightfull owners (countried of origin), they have cultural importance to the people, that is not something that should be robbed.
Give the Parthenon marbles back to Greece
greece is bankrupt, like giving adopted children back to the impoverished
@@TWak4ord giving it back could bring money to the country by tourism and the marbles would return to their rightful place. If they are so worried about it they could help keep the objects safe in the place of origin Greece. It's not like they can't take care of the objects, they literally have in their museums spaces for the statues in the British museum
@@chocolatbownie35 Greece already has a lot of tourism those things wouldn't help mutch it would probably just decay like most ancient structures and artifacts in Greece do
@ Alexander's conquest bsrrely has anything to do with most greek artifacts as his empire was really short lived and then decided into several factions that didn't pay tribute or anything of the sort to Greece
Is Greece still at war with Turkey? I don't know the answer to that question, but if the Turks still fire weapons in Greek cities then I would say it's best that the marbles stay where they are so they can remain protected.
Makes me think of a Bartimaeus trilogy passage where it says something like:"tourist came in thousands to see the artifact that had been stolen from them"😂
This is such an interesting video! I'm from Mexico and some people debate over the fact that one of Moctezuma's headdresses (Moctezuma was an Aztec emperor) is currently on display on Vienna, many arguing that it should be returned to Mexico. My opinion is that it shouldn't be returned, firstly as how many people have pointed out how fragile it is, and shipping it from Austria to Mexico would severely damage it. Secondly, the fact that the headdress is in Austria in the first place is because it was a personal gift from the Aztec emperor to the Spanish king, who lived in the Holy Roman Empire, thus why it is in Vienna. Lastly, it if were to be returned to Mexico, it shouldn't be given to the Mexican government, but to the current descendants of those communities. Giving it to a Mexican museum would be counterintuitive, as Mexican museums are mostly just as colonial entities as those elsewhere (Mexican museums currently exhibit artifacts from other countries like Guatemala, which were obtained by just as colonial means)
It's often complicated. The Mona Lisa became the most famous painting in the world, in part because it was stolen at the beginning of the 20th century by an Italian patriot who believed the painting should rightfully belong in an Italian museum. It gave the painting an incredible amount of publicity. Eventually the guy was caught and the painting was returned to the Louvre.
The reason the Mona Lisa is in France in the first place is because Leonardo Da Vinci took the painting with him to France and died there. It was later sold to King Francis I. So can you really say that it is an Italian painting when Leonardo kept and finished it in France?
Your three approaches roughly parallels the three most prominent families of ethical theories: deontology, utilitarianism, and virtue ethics. Interesting.
I have no idea what these three theories are but... Cool comment 🤷🏾♀️
@@Sesi_angel_india1000 Not OP, but deontology generally says certain actions themselves are right or wrong regardless of consequence, utilitarianism says the greater good should be pursued regardless if individual actions to reach it, and virtue ethics I'm more shaky about but emphasizes cultivating certain virtues in society. How they line up with the three arguments approximately: deontology, stealing is bad, give them back; virtue ethics, preservation of history and cultivation of education is most important and shouldn't be out in jeopardy by trying to return the artifacts; utilitarianism, education is diminished with replicas and returning objects diminishes controversy that could threaten a museums longterm goals.
I love the blue in your braids!
Ikr they’re very pretty
As commander Rourke says in Atlantis "if you gave back every stolen artifact from a museum, you'd be left with an empty building"
Excellent quote from an underrated movie. FYI “stolen” means “acquired by theft” whereas “stollen” is a delicious German bread 😊
You’re so annoying and I love you
exactly you can’t fill your house with things that don’t belong to you
Museums from colonizer countries do have an ethical obligation to return what they stole from their colonies. Because currently I'd have to buy a plane ticket to England, buy a ticket to the museum and jostle around just to get a glimpse of a piece of my own Indian history. Colonial countries should return things they STOLE from our countries.
I know dissemination of knowledge is important. But how weird it is if I don't have have access to objects that will provide me with knowledge about my own culture but a bored kid from the colonizer country forced to go to a museum does.
Colonial museums are ethically difficult too with the limited involvement of locals and how some still keep perpetuating some difficult "traditions" /social exclusion.
@@fionafiona1146 Are you talking about museums in the native countries or the colonizer countries? And who is ever excluded from a museum?
tanya I can see this is a passionate issue for you, and I know this comment section isn’t gonna like this, but I have to disagree that they should HAVE to return the items. First of all, the current inhabitants of these nations aren’t the ones who pillaged. They may certainly benefit from what their ancestors did, and that needs to be acknowledged, but this negative feeling towards its current inhabitants is misguided imo. Secondly, you do not NEED to see what’s in this museum in person to learn about your heritage, I understand you’re passionate, but you make it seem like you’ll just die on the spot if you don’t have access to these items. Most modern finds are clearly photographed and labeled online. That being said, it would be really cool to have them nearer you. I think we should definitely take it piece by piece and not let emotion go too crazy. Further transportation could cause irreversible damage to what are likely frail items. Let’s also stop and be thankful that they were recovered and protected for this long... these items very well may not even exist today had they not been preserved. Just some food for thought... not everything is black and white, let’s not make irrational thought based on resentment.
@@Dumbledore6969x no food for my thoughts. You're obviously not a person who is affected by this.
So my emotions are high about this because it is something that is something that does concern me.
Of course the current citizens are not the ones who stole these things. Doesn't give them the right to keep it either.
What if I come to your house. Hurt your family, and destroy large portions of it and then I see this object that you have that means a lot to your family, maybe it's generations old, maybe you won it in some competition. I steal it. Now you keep trying to get it back but because I am richer than you, you are never really able to get it back. The police is like I don't care. Your neighbours are like that bitch stole our stuff too but all of you are powerless. Other random people tell you that it's useless and because I am rich I can take good care of it.
Then I die and people start realizing I'm terrible and start demanding that my victims be heard. And their demands met. But hey my daughter is also rich so she says no I'm not returning your things because I didn't steal it so that means they are mine. And you are too poor and economically unstable to take care of it. You say that's not true and who is my fake daughter to judge you economic status and stability.
Is that not irritating. How rich colonizing countries can come to another place. Abuse, enslave, rape and murder the people, steal resources. And then also steal important things that are dear and have meaning just because white people back home think "it's simply marvellous". And then leave but keep in tact the systems that they used to abuse nations. And then refuse to return those items because they are not done filling their coffers. And then citizens of those countries who are not even taught this part of their heinous history tell the natives that we don't deserve these things because hey you won't die if you don't see this.
I know your people have never respected my people, but I won't let you turn this into an intellectual debate where both sides have very good points. It's our stuff, plain and simple.
Edit: I am fucking livid at this so I guess I am very very irrational??? But your idea of rational is that let my country keep benefiting and you can just chill. Wow that sounds like the height of logic and rationality. Your views simply must be a heavenly amalgamation of all the enlightenment era thinkers. How do you do it? Don't you get tired of these amazing brilliant rational thoughts. *Round of applause for you my friend.
tanya Ew. I said don’t get emotional and then you cried your eyes out. Stop with the bullcrap, it’s not that important. Do something else with your life rather than feel sorry
My country's museums just keep artifacts from our own history and culture, as far as I know.
My city has a very small museum, and it's mostly just indigenous artifacts or instruments (wich were donated or gifted by the local tribes, nothing stolen that i know about). The only "stolen" piece is a hat from a Spanish soldier, from the times of the revolution. It's nice
There's like an Ice Cream Museum in the States
The only that might be unethical about them is leaving with a tummy ache
So I still have hope for the more modern museums here that are opening up
Are Museums ethical? Yes. Stealing, however, is not.
Stealing today is not. But is it still stealing if it was stolen centuries ago and neither the thief nor the victim are still alive? I think not. I think by that point the item belongs to all of humanity.
@@natelogos7662 if the item belongs to all of humanity, why are museums so reluctant to give the artifact's back to the host country, why keep it for themself?
@@phantomwarlock5002 It depends on whether the host country can keep the artifact safe and provide access to researchers. If a country regularly has bombings the artifact might not be safe there. And if political situations keep researchers out of the country then the artifact shouldn't be there.
@@natelogos7662 then let's take a country that hasn't been in war for quite some time, India. Artifacts would be kept safely there, what's your counter to that?
@@phantomwarlock5002 I don't have a counter to that. I have no objection to returning objects to nations that can keep them safe and keep them accessible for academic research.
I'm Egyptian and I have very conflicted feelings about this. A lot of our monuments have been stolen by different countries over the years, it pains me to see that, but then I see our museums back home and how neglected they are, and I can't quite decide if it's better for those historical masterpieces to be respected in some of the biggest museums all around the world, or let it be abused and mishandled in their home country because we can't afford to do it!
The West should repatriate the items AND pay for museum upgrades.
I live for part of the year in Turin and have visited the Museo Egizio many times. It's Turin's most popular tourist attraction. That said I wouldn't shed any tears to see the entire collection returned to Egypt and for Italian tax payers to be spending money on cultural artifacts produced in Italy. I am not remotely interested in visiting Egypt - too hot, too violent and too expensive to go there. If I want to know about pre--Islamic Egypt, there are plenty of books and videos which give all the information you need. I am amazed that a self-respecting Muslim country should spend so much money on preserving a pre-Islamic civilisation's artifacts. A truly devout Muslim nation would follow the example of Daesh/ISIS or the Taliban in Afghanistan. Nowadays, many Africans and African Americans claim Egypt as part of their culture. Assuming the case can be made, it is their responsibility, not that of Western governments to fund the whole "science" of Egyptology.
@@giovanniacuto2688 I don't think you realize how much Egyptians value their heritage from Ancient Egypt. Saying that we should destroy it because Egypt is a Muslim country leads me to believe that you might have a few misunderstandings as to what that means. The fact that you think ISIS or Taliban are devout Muslims in any way is very troublingly misguided and misinformed too. I'm not going to get into the whole thing, it would take away from what we're talking about. We love our ancient Egyptian heritage, we're very proud of it. The problem is not that we don't care so our museums are not cared for, it's that we can't afford it. We have so many beautiful things but not enough money to really make them shine, to do proper repairs with all the right temperatures and lights and all that. I don't live in Egypt right now, but whenever I visit, I try to sneak in some sightseeing, because even as an adult there's still some places I haven't visited or have only visited as a child and want to experience again as an adult.
@@BeautifulEarthJa we both know that's never going to happen lol.
@@NahlaAnwer we still have to know what's right and what SHOULD happen...
🤦🏿♂️ it’s not ethical because for example your using someone dead body for profit
if im dead id rather my body is being studied and showed in the future than be rotting and be eaten by insects
MATURE GAMBINO see but the difference is you have a say and many people who’s bodies are in museums right now did not.
*you're (contraction of "YOU aRE")
"Your" is for possession.
@@astoldbyt3683 they are also dead
@@FOLIPE but they didn't give their consent nor were they asked of what to do of their remains.
China asked the Britain to give the stolen Chinese artifacts back.
The Britain: if we do, there would be no artifacts in our museum.
Lol isn’t that the point?
Baartman's story is so heartbreaking...
im surprised u didnt quote the international council of museums,in their code of ethics it indicates the third point you made to solve these isssues as the correct! if the museum isnt returning the piece they must work with the communities or ethnicies they came from!!!
I think this is why I like the natural history museums where I can learn about dinosaurs and their bones…
I'm taking a class on this right now, we were at the Colorado History museum and there is a massive exhibit on the Ute Indians. They worked with the tribes of the Ute and got all of the artifacts ethically. Theres is a huge push in the US to repatriate the artifacts that were unethically acquired back to the people they belonged to. Especially when it comes to the Indian tribes.
The problem with repatriation of items back to certain areas is that they won't be kept safe. I mena a few years ago ISIS was blowing up ancient Buddhist temples
Yes! The museum in Iraq has only recently reopened after being utterly trashed! 😔
Maybe do process of returning on a case by case basis then. It's wrong to assume literally all areas in the world except these have enough strife that artifacts would be destroyed.
Fear of terrorism is not an excuse to keep what was basically stolen. Honestly. Hypothetically. Many historical items were destroyed when European nations were constantly at war with each other. It doesn't give China the right to come in & take the Mona Lisa. Because Nazi Germany was destroying artifacts.
@@joyouknow5385 so you would return a historical artifact to Syria or Somali knoeing the state of those nations. I get it but as some one that looks at the big picture some nations don't have the infrastructure. Most nations do have it the artifacts should be returned but the few maybe should remain where they are.
@@hosuerodriguez8262 Somali and Syris can do whatever they want with their returned artefacts. You don't get to dictate or strongly feel a certain way about what people do with what belongs to them.
I have one argument against the second line of thought that you mentioned. That it has been too long and the museums are preserving the objects and they are available for public consumption. When a culturally or historically important artefact is taken from one country and placed for the consumption of the public on the other side of the globe, it deprives a large portion of the population from the country/culture of origin of the artefact from consuming it. As an Indian, I have myself seen museums in my country that simply have photographs of missing objects instead of the objects themselves, with a small caption mentioning some museum in a distant country holding the original.
As an Assyrian, most of my cultures valuables were stolen or destroyed by Arabs and Turks (mainly Muslim cultures). Not sure why Europeans are demonised so badly.
My guess is because of how expansive their, especially Britiain's, colonization was and the overall lasting effects. At its height Britain had control of about 25% of the world's land.
@@TheBlkKat Being able to control more land is an indication of how successful you are, not how evil you are. You think Kim Jong Un wouldn’t want to control 100% of the worlds land if only he had the power to do so?
@@blupandax7902 I didn't say that their occupation of land was what made them evil. I was saying that they had substantial land that resulted in long last effects which means there are going to be a lot more voices expressing their distaste compared to other nations that didn't expand their reach as far.
Perhaps because as you said Arab and Turks stole/ destroyed objects of your culture. How could you not see why europeans are demonize so badly? Europeans could have shown them a thing or two about looting from around the entire world! No just one area !
@@TheBlkKat At one while it was said that the sun never set on the British empire ! So yes, as they saw it, everything and everyone was up for grabs!
I spent most of the summer exploring the museums of my home country, and had the opportunity to see exhumed human remains, jewelry, weapons, pottery, tools found in burial sites. There were also plenty replicas of what the original items would have looked like, recreations of the ancient people's homes, ancestor totems, shrines, canoes, etc. Those museums were fine to exist and fully ethical, the reason being is that they were about the ancestors of the very people who opened them. I can look at a curonian warrior's spearhead and not think that it was stolen. Because you can't steal what belongs to you. But a lot of our ancestral artefacts are missing and destroyed due to the archaeology craze in the 1800s. Much like it happened with every other "inrferior" European group, the germans who were in power over the land dug up the ancient burial sites(some of which were sacred) and exchanged them between themselves, often ending up neglecting them to the point these items are no longer in any shape worth mentioning. Not only that but they decided that this and that inferior group couldn't have _possibly_ made them and ended up telling that those items were made by someone else. It's downright disrespectful. If this is how white imperialists treated people who _looked like them_ I can't begin to imagine how bad it was for groups like the indigenous tribes of America, or Africans, etc.
Prejudice is everywhere. The "us vs them" has always been part of humanity as it is and probably will remain to be
Not far from London, there used to be a lovely little Roman town called Verulamium. After the Anglo-Saxons conquered "England", they pillaged the site in order to build the St Albans Abbey complex, of which the Cathedral still remains. England nowadays has enough cathedrals as it is. Personally I wish more of old Verulamium had remained for visitors to see. Fortunately I spend a lot of time in Italy where Roman remains are not in short supply.
You lost me at white imperialist. Literally every other race and nation has done unjustly things to each other depending if they have ad the powder to do so.
@@newguy8288 my guy your right but I don't think native Americans and native Australians where imperialist
They don’t teach you any of this in high school, thank you for the knowledge!
This is a great conversation starter, I love museums, but agree about the ethical dilemma that exists with the curation of artifacts
We watched the Black Panther scene in my History of Early Modern African to start our discussion of cultural reparations and restitutions
It's such a tough subject, and on top of all the things you mentioned I think we should consider where objects can best be preserved. Part of me wishes the Bamiyan Buddhas had been in a museum somewhere so that the Taliban wouldn't have been able to destroy them.
@EmperorJuliusCaesar except theres a very big grey area for when something is considered stolen, especially when theres been a passage of decades.
As an example the national Museum of Denmark holds some old writings from the viking age. They were written in iceland and icelands wants them back, even though culturally its just norse, which includes scandinavia. Whats more the writings were given to denmark via legal means. Should they be returned? Theres people pushing for both sides. Sometimes its obvious but not always.
@EmperorJuliusCaesar It seems as simple as that, and I agree that sometimes it really is just theft. But there are definitely tricky cases. Sometimes a list of pros and cons can easily be well matched. Often though, you are right, things were just flat out stolen.
@EmperorJuliusCaesar Lol your comment with that profile name is stupidly ironic
@@shariwelch8760 Though in some cases they were taken in times of war, other times they we illegally bought and some they just bought it from the original owners but we'll never really know which is which and what is what
Let's not forget that the root of the problem was the US funding the Taliban's predecessors and helping them gain power in the 80s.
Most of my country relics acquired by Netherlands during colonial era and kept in their museum.
I'm conflicted as I have to accept the fact that the Dutch preserve it greatly for us to study centuries later.
But those are the pride of my country.
Hope you know they destroyed and burned the original owners in order to have them?? So they would still be there anyway in those places if that didn't happened. Nothing justifies this criminality
You guys kind of missed another option. You know there are museums in Africa right. If something was stolen and taken over seas but they no longer have direct descendants and its unclear which specific communities they belonged to and its thought it'd be a good idea to keep them in a museum so they can be looked after and everyone can see them... then they don't have to stay in some American or European museum. They can be brought back to their country of origin and kept in a museum there so that the people there can benefit from being able to see them and learn about their own history and culture, without having to pay the huge expense of travelling to another country?? Just saying...
*We don't do that around here*
I agree that the people in the countries concerned should have direct access to their own artifacts. Over time the artifacts would be seen by far fewer people as many would be tourists would not consider it worth the expense to visit, for example,a museum in Benin City Nigeria, to see Benin bronzes. Moreover Nigeria is not a poor country and could afford to take on the financial burden of curating artifacts properly for the benefit of their own people.
You're so cool and smart. I love this channel. I wish more people could talk about controversial topics in such a calm, well-reasoned way.
Baartman's story is so heartbreaking. Every time I hear anything about it, it feels like a gut punch. Thank you for this. I went to an exhibit of Gaugin's art and almost bumped into a NZ Maori carving that was most definitely looted. Having lived in NZ for many years, i recognized the carving as one of a family's ancestors. These pieces are NEVER given away. They're treasures and are believed to actually inhabit the souls of ancestors. The fact that Gaugin made off with it, took it to Tahiti, and that it's now traveling the world with an art exhibit makes me sick.
Whoah, I thought about the same thing when I saw the black panther
This is something we art historians have to think about all the time. I'm really glad that the movie brought the issue to a wider audience.
The same applies to Tomb Raider and Indiana Jones
@ you are comparing empires and tribes from 18th to the 20th century, pleople aren't the same as like... 100 years ago, don't be such an ignorant asshole
I’m getting a MA in public history this is a huge discussion right now in the field. Making sure things are ethical is something I definitely want practice in my work
While I don't agree with the way every item was obtained by museums however the vast majority of people don't care nor are qualified to properly care for these priceless pieces of history
Imagine someone breaking into your home and then arguing, but I'm going to take better care of it. Theft isn't debatable on the grounds of what or how objects are cared for by the rightful owner.
@@Cha4k Actually, it's called theft if someone removes something from your front yard. It is legal to remove something from a trash container someone has put on the curb only. The equivalent of what you're claiming would be if a country shipped their antiques to you and said here is our trash, do with it as you like. Since that's not what happened, we can reason free from hypocrisy that it's theft.
Defining the "community" or descendants of the original "owners" of a lot of the pieces is going to be problematic, at best.
Population migration alone makes geographic proximity a poor method.
The first artifact pointed out in the Black Panther scene was from the Ashanti. I believe the Ashanti are the only tribe in Africa whose borders were not cut up or merged with others by Europe. The country today is Ghana. Their history should be returned.
@Mira M maybe. Imagine, however, if someone broke into your house, killed you, and took all your stuff. Not someone from another culture, but your neighbor.
A thousand years later a museum returns your stuff to their descendants. Is that really a step in the right direction?
Knowing the localities matters a little, you have a slightly better chance of hitting some degree of "proper" heirs, I suppose, but just as much a chance of hitting heirs of someone the original owner despised.
I’ve always wondered about this same thing
If you're ever in a museum, and you look at the tag and it says something like "Acquired in 1780," then definitely question how it was acquired.
@@shariwelch8760 Even if you do question it at this point why would anyone care.
@@sirsteam6455 😂 After spending years of my life in Museum Studies classes, I can tell you that thousands of people care, probably more. Just because you don't care doesn't mean nobody cares.
@@shariwelch8760 I didn't say that I said why would anyone care not no one cares you misread what I said
@@sirsteam6455 That question is astounding, I didn't even think to respond. People generally care if their cultural heritage is stolen. If you don't get that, I can't help you. Take some history classes maybe.
There was this one Scottish dude, Lord Elgin, who went to Greece and stole a ton of sculptures then sold them to the British museum. like he just straight up came with a group of artists and repair workers and ended up taking almost half of the parthenon marbles ಠ_ಥ
I don't see why colonisers should have any particular monopoly on the items they stole. Why can't cultures have their own museums, and THEN loan them out? That's how coloniser museums work with each other??
That requires the colonisers to pay for items they currently have for free so I can't see them supporting this idea.
That is starting to happen. Egypt has repatriated a lot of exhibits, and now lines them out to a rota of museums, that includes their own. :) Many more people get to enjoy and learn from these exhibits, and their museum gets a good revenue, when it's not there not with them.
Vicky Mc Egypt also had a lot of their artifacts destroyed or stolen in recent years. Those artifacts are now gone forever.
Because these cultures allowed their history to waste away while the colonizers saved them from being destroyed and forgotten. The Parthenon was used as a public urinal until the British had to explain to the Greeks the value of it
Q If a society cared about their ancient culture they wouldn’t have let foreigners take the objects away. Most ancient objects come from Muslim countries where they would have been destroyed by Islamic radicals as ‘infidel artifacts’.
I guess I feel like personal remains or belongings (such as paintings, etc., that the Nazis stole) that the family have a claim to, should be returned. But, if an artifact is in a museum, and the country to which it was obtained - even if unethically - is in danger of those artifacts risking destruction, then they should remain where they are safely preserved, such as those taken from Syria, Iraq or other areas of conflict.
Yes I guess. But there are many many many more countries that are now stable and don't make artifact destruction a habit. Those should be returned too. Why are those never included in the too dangerous for the precious artifact discussion.
@@tanya292 You're right. If the country of origin wants the artifact back, they should have it.
This is my first time watching a video on this channel but I love how the host recognizes both sides of the argument and adds a possible solution to both problems by offering a third option that pleases those on both sides of the argument
We should also make private individuals who have made their fortune by shady means give it back to the public. But under capitalist governments, that's never going to happen. Why single out museums, though?
It's a good place to start the conversation. No one is saying it has to end there.
Gotta start somewhere. If museums are easier than capitalists then so be it.
Shady means???
@@AD-jq7ow There is a whole underground of black markets which buy and sale art and artifacts to private dealers. This is one of the main reasons why artwork disappears: it's illegally in someone's private collection, which is never seen by the public! Example: WWII veterans to artwork took the US and kept it in their homes. Upon their deaths, family members found the stolen artwork and returned it to the rightful owners!
@@AD-jq7ow Inheritance of fortunes made by exploiting other people (e.g. slavery, feudalism, sweatshops) counts as 'shady means' in my opinion, especially since the same basic principle is applied to museum collections in this video.
i’m interested in how the bunkers each had a wife AND children 🤔
why?
She didn't cover the negative, like how Afghanistan artifacts are being destroyed, so how would returning a artifact to its place of origin, only to be destroyed, and how this sort of thing also must be included in the dialog and discussion where to return made artifacts.
based
Afghanistan’s political strife isn’t an excuse to not return stolen artifacts to their place of origin.
@@___zeke___7581 yes it is
@@Gabriel-px8cv they are if the country of origin or outside forces are destroying them. Example, 100s of sites and 1000s of artifacts have been destroyed by terrorist groups like ISIS. Museums,like one I know at the top of my head,the field museum, protects these artifacts from destruction.
@@Gabriel-px8cv sorry bud, human history is worth more than the wills of hateful extremists and blind nationalists.
I once watched a documentary that examined this issue. Though I can't recall a lot of details now, there are other issues that were not highlighted in this video regarding the purchase of artifacts. In western countries there are more ethical processes in place yet despite this foreign artifacts can still be robbed from areas that: have loose laws, under-value the items or unstable economic/ geopolitical environments.
I loved that scene in Black Panther. It had me wondering the exact same thing - I'm sure all of this is no accident. It was brilliant.
To be fair a lot of third world country artifacts are getting sold on the black market after all
Wow! Thanks for recognizing the ruins of Ur in your "origins of museums" blurb! I was there in 2004 with my Army unit and toured the city and climbed the ziggurat 3 times over the course of a year. The tour mentioned one of the buildings is suspected of being a museum, and also having one of the oldest, if not the oldest, stone arch doorway!
England be like:
Hippity hoppity the your national treasures are now my property
Give us back the marbles you Britrats ♥️
Totally agree but I wouldn't spend a cent on bothering to go to your country to see them
Still waiting on the khoon nath jewel on the Victoria Crown
No.
And how about you pay debts back to us first, peasent.
@@billcipherproductions1789 you aslo owe money you idiott
everyone does. And we dont even owe you that much. Aslo even if we owed you money that does not mean that it is ok to steal.
How about the Hope Diamond … That was originally from India 🇮🇳… A European explorer was rumored to have stolen it from a Indian temple and smuggled it out to Europe. The Hope Diamond was recut and ended up in the French Royal Family.
I'm excited for the future of VR in museums. Guided tours that can transport you through time to locations where the artifacts were from. All while giving audio ambiance and spoken vocal history if that's what's needed to get the full experience.
Just imagine all those germs in the headset tho 😅 oh what is covid doing to me
It's seems like a case by case basis, questioning how well the piece is represented and which party has the better means to preserve it. But like, you don't need to display the original piece to give it's message. When I was a kid I thought that all museums made copies for display purposes, and the originals were protected in some national reserve, but maybe I only have that impression because I'm from the Midwest, and a lot of bigger, fancier museums see displaying the original as a major draw for traffic. But as you demonstrated with the Portland art museum example, an object being in a museum doesn't mean they're giving proper context to the piece. I would air that a museum that cares more about having the prestige of an original piece cares more about spectacle than education, and is nothing more than a glorified Ripley's sideshow tourist trap.
As a brazilian, something we've always wanted to do was to get back the gold and jewels that we're taken illegaly from our nation, and now belong, in most part to england, in fact the british crown is made of brasilian gold, mostly, but as its something that dates the begging of the xix century, we cant really make such claims, but still would like them to understand the story behind it
"Finders keepers especially if those keepers kept the goods safe. Had they not taken them and put the effort into protecting the artifacts they would've been lost even if the UK had no interactions with the countries the artifact hails from. You know the same way the Taliban and other warlord groups routinely take a dump on historical sites or the way those local governments lack the resources to do scrap booking at this scale.
We don't want your protection. We can protect our heritage , don't make excuses , just give us our property. Why are you thinking of security of artifacts? 😂 These aren't British property.
Museums don’t have obligations to the past,
nations and people do.
Places like the British Museum and the Louvre have absolutely no excuse for holding on to stolen works. They have archives so ludicrously packed that less than 10% of their collection is actually on display.
Things in museums should be owned by there countries of origins but should remain on rotation in a current holding country
The thing is they took these a long time ago, and i dont think the current generation holders of these items feel that they should be responsible for something their ancestors did, museums should pay some kind of repatriate payment tho, but we should learn to put the past behind
@@Hhhh22222-w I completely agree , felt as if we might have been saying similar things just in another way
Between international museums they do loan out their collections to other institutions around the world for exhibitions
*their (possessive)
they're = contraction of "THEY aRE"
there: for all other uses
@@Hhhh22222-w They are responsible. They benefit from the money they are making from it. They can easily make amends for the crimes of their ancestors. But they are actually proud of their ancestors evil deeds.
England continues to keep the Kohinoor diamond instead of returning it to India, the same has happened to many other former colonies
if artifacts werent preserved in a museum they would most likely have already been destroyed by the civilisations that owned them
Never been this early.
How is everyone?
How's your family?
How's your wife?
I'm not married
@@happyfacefries 😊 amazing
Everyone is driving me mad
Family is going crazy
Wife is non-existent but still yells at me
Another issue or view, which may not be justifiable, is a concern that regions or places of origin are either not safe for the artifacts/remains/etc or the people wanting it back having no appreciation for.
For instance, Syria is currently undergoing a lot. If Syria made a claim, should we be concerned returning one of a kind archeological finds to a war ravaged and chaotic place?
Or recall the giant buddhas of Bamyan. They were DESTROYED by the Taliban who are currently resurging. Returning things to Afghanistan might be worrying then.
That's why I think each item should be evaluated individually. Countries that are war-torn usually have other things to think about than artifacts half a world away. But there are many items that can be safely returned, yet museums won't let them go.
I personally think that the people/descendents/families of the people and items stolen should be asked if they want them back or if they consent to having them in museums to educate. If the families/people want their cultural items and families back, museums should freely return them to their rightful homes, maybe they can have pictures displayed instead (with consent). And if the families/people give consent, they should have every right to revoke it. For example, the Catholic Church has in their possession cultural and historical items that were stolen from Jews, and we're still a living nation. We want our cultural items back and have been denied time and time again. If they really want, they can take photos of our items and keep those, but to ignore our calls to get back our cultural artifacts is incredibly messed up.
I used to love going to museums when I was young. Hell, I still enjoy them now. The Science Museum up here in Minnesota is really, really cool. But, when the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Tutakenaten exhibits were on rotation, I asked my dad:
"Isn't the King-bro supposed to be resting in Egypt? What's he doing way over here?" Dad didnt really have an answer for me. Haha.
But, Ive always wondered why art and objects of origin arent in their places of... Origin. (Redundancy is redundant. Sorry.) And, you look through history and find that stuff was taken and stolen and... Whatever (I'm oversimplifying), it raises some questions.
Museums make tons of money, the Science Museum does for example. It made roughly $37.5 million last year. How much was that from exhibits that dont originate from Minnesota or the US? I think someone wouldnt be willing to part with any of that to pay the originators of that art...
It's a dicey subject. Some situations are mkre clear than others, as the video has stated. Museums bring the rest of the world to people that arent able to see it (like myself haha). But is my happiness and satisfaction predicated on the notion of stolen history and art?
Id say give the art back. Or at least ask the peoples who originated the art for permission to use it. If they say no, give it back no questions asked. If they say yeah, pay em' for as long as the art has been on display.
But, like I said, people arent willing to part with cash...
I'm all for returning artifacts which have significance to a culture and want it back.
However, in defense of the egyptian stuff, ancient egypt was totally different from modern egypt. The egyptian civilisation fell and there have since been centuries of islamic occupation making it unrecognisable. When british archaeologists first began excavating tombs, the modern egyptians didn't really care aboutt the artifacts until tutankhamun made headlines and they saw all of the gold and international interest. Do any specific museums have the right to own them? No. Neither does egypt really. Just because they share the same land doesn't make ancient egyptians and modern egyptians the same people.
This is the best answer ive read on here! Colonialist mentality is clearly alive and well in these “modern times”
I mean museums may take a lot of money but trust me that doesn't usually cover the bills. The sector is chronically under funded and curators woefully underpaid considering how many degrees they often need to get the job! Conserving objects and putting them on display with a full security rosta doesn't come cheap.
That's why they get into bed witth shady oil companies and big fat capitalists: to keep the lights on.
@@louisa1514 I know I'm late in replying, but I just found this video again. Haha. But to your point, I agree and respectfully disagree at the same time. Why not let the artifacts and tombs rest where they lie? I mean, excavate and study for history and science of course, especially if people aren't around to claim it anymore. But why take it from its resting place? If the original authority isnt there to dictate what can/should happen to their artifacts and tombs, by what rights should we and others get to decide to take them from their resting place? And then sell them for profit across the globe? I'm just asking, no disrespect. I appreciate your reply!
@@SplatterInker I agree! It's a really messed up and shady business cycle. But I think the larger point that I was trying to get at, and the overall question as well, is why are museums the authority on what happens to other cultures artifacts and tombs? What makes them the authority to dictate what happens to them and why are they profiting (however much or little) on such displays?