I think that a person can develop an 'Avoidant personality disorder' as a result of being exposed to a person with a narcissistic personality disorder over a prolonged period of time. For example a child or sibling of a narcissist
I think you're right. When I realized that I have AvPD and read up as to what could cause it, I understood that it was most likely my narcissistic brother that instilled all of these feelings of being inadequate, inferior and useless into me. He was essentially bullying and abusing me throughout my childhood.
I have this. For years I thought that I was a narcissist, but growing up in a family where neglect and narcissistic abuse has occured for decades, I've become this numb person who fears rejection and abandonment. Helped me a lot to realize this. Now I'm on my journey to recovery and making peace with the situation and most of all, myself.
I think it's the construct of covert narcissism that has people confused, Dr. Grande. Many descriptions of covert narcissists online describe them as shy, timid, fearful with low self-esteem. Researchers need to get to the bottom of what covert narcissism is and how it presents vs other personality types or the confusion will continue.
This is excellent. As a "typical guy" I have been labeled as "covert narc" by an angrey spouse before. I read a recent book on it; reckon i am more likely "dismissive avoidant "/ i.e. normal male, pysch/culture-aware, without clinical morbidities.
I agree that Vulnerable narcissism and Avoidant Personality Disorder could be confused. I recall hearing that often people high in trait narcissism will swing between Grandiose and Vulnerable states over time. It may be that patients are diagnosed with Avoidant Personality Disorder during a period of Vulnerable narcissism and Narcissistic Personality Disorder during a period where they are expressing grandiose traits. I wonder if maladaptive shame-processing links Narcissistic Personality Disorder and Avoidant Personality Disorder. People with Avoidant seem to aim a lot of aggression and criticism inwards and are hypersensitive to experiencing shame. Conversely, people with Narcissistic and Antisocial seem to externalise their aggression by victimising and shaming others.
this is just my opinion based of my own observation / experience, but this is my sound judgement on what i have known / what research explains. if timorous schizotypals are not vulnerable narcissists, then vulnerable narcissist concept should be removed entirely because it's not helpful, and just vague. people might as well stick to the covert vs overt ways of addressing "narcissism". that way, it can be better understood as the same condition or problem, much the same way with ADD vs ADHD which recently up to this point, a lot of people seem to believe ADD is actually the newer SCT condition ( sluggish cognitive tempo ) when clearly Barkley's research shows qualitative differences and ADD is just ADHD manifested a little differently, but the core of the disorder still is the same. that's why it's sort of useless to say something like is ADHD different in girls, well, the answer to that is not anymore different than someone who likes to eat pizzas instead of burgers, in other words, it doesn't matter... researchers aren't gonna get to the bottom line of it unless people like me can get accepted for research to educate them on these things and give the truth. do you know how sad it is to know about something your whole life that's extremely important to society and your own cause but never having the option of getting it acknowledged properly, and that thing in particular is my research survey which could have educated people better but unfortunately, because i don't have the requirements such as being in a university or college entity, financial reasons, and just other people being stupid, my study is basically sitting there in the dust never able to get any participants and published, while i have to watch regularly all these years these worthless stupid studies that often aren't even done on clinical populations. so a bigger answer to your question is clinical population research surveys are the problem, not being able to target these people and / or getting enough of a sample size / putting it out there to get people is the problem, as a result, the few studies that do get the samples tend to be biased and / or not representing things accurately.
i was called a covert narcissist by my ex gf because i didn't want to go to her parents for christmas. Before that i had no interest in any of this stuff and i didn't think there was much wrong with me but when she started going through the symptoms and psychoanalyzing me and watching youtube videos about covert narcissism i started to recognize some of my symptoms and she talked me into believing i had just about all of them and my avoidance was actually a wounded ego that couldn't tolerate rejection. I went to see a counselor and thankfully in my first meeting she put my mind at ease when she said a narcissist wouldn't have come so easily. In the end i was diagnosed with AVPD and it worked out well because it's better for me to be aware of it so i can try to manage myself better but be careful because most of these amateur psychoanalysts and so called narc survivalists are probably narcs themselves; gaslighting is just another way for a narcissist to abuse and control their victims and really why would any normal person have such an interest in psychology and weaponizing it to label other people?
Where I believe theses separate disorders can get confused is in the area of "narcissistic wounding". Both disorders result in increased sensitivity to preceived slights and where these individuals over react in very defensive manners, including rage, passive aggressiveness, devalue and discard of personal relationships.
Thank you, Dr. Grande! I guess that an avoidant person can be more readily confused with a "thin-skinned", or vulnerable narcissist (as opposed to an arrogant or "thick-skinned" narcissist). At a risk of simplifying, I would propose that one important difference between an avoidant person and a vulnerable narcissist is that the latter would think indignantly, "They do not understand or accept me; what's wrong with them!", while the former would think pensively, "They do not understand or accept me; what's wrong with me?" Ironically, and notwithstanding all the narcissistic claims of self-sufficiently and independence, the avoidant position seems to be more powerful of the two, because if something is wrong with me, then I can do at least something about it. The narcissistic externalization of blame for being misunderstood seems to be a much weaker stance, since it places all locus of personal control on other ("cruel" and "miserable") people. Does this make sense at all?
You're welcome! Yes, your personality disorder conceptualization makes sense. Often, personality disorders can be differentiated by looking at the underlying thoughts and rationale rather than feelings and behaviors, because the feelings and behaviors may be similar or identical from one personality disorder presentation to the next.
This is a perfect way to see the difference between them! This was the difference between me and my former best friend. When we were students, we were similar. But she always seemed stronger than me, was surrounded by many friends who admired her radiant personality. But when we hit our 30’s, her personality became difficult for me. I noticed that she always blamed others for her problems. Also, she started to blame me, and my first reaction is to think about it, whether there’s something true about it. And eventually i got tired from her lack of responsibility over herself and putting the blame on others and left her. She gave me one last tantrum about me being illoyal and a false friend for leaving her in a moment, where she needs support (socially isolated at workplace, living in a different country, permanent conflicts with her partner, having health problems). Why i feel no guilt is: she had used these reasons before to legitimate her aggressive behavior towards me and i had offered her my advice to think about her tribute to her conflicts with partner and colleagues - and i told her about a job vacancy at my company, so she doesn’t have to work abroad anymore with all those „difficult“ foreign people. I am shy, but i don’t disrupt the social dynamics in my company, nevertheless leave a general good impression and i am very liked by colleagues who know me better, because i work good, i am helpful, and never impose myself on others. So, you’re very right about everything. When the APD managed to overcome their fears, they overtake themselves and a narcissist.
To me it sounds like avoidants are like textbook examples of what Craig Malkin calls "echoist", people who are the opposite of narcissists. They feel very uncomfortable if they get any admiration or attention. They would like to be invisible. For a narcissist being invisible would be like death.
I worry sometimes that I have both. Can a person with narcissistic personality disorder have dependent disorder as well? I definitely have dependent disorder. I think my isolation from AvPD causes me to fantasize about a reality where I am successful and admired. Sometimes I think if I didn't have this avoidant disorder that I could do important things that would change society. Then I think I don't really have the skills to pull it off, but I enjoy the fantasy.
"All narcissists are codependent, but not all codependents are narcissists." The difference is that narcissists are entitled and exploitative. Your run of the mill codependent is not.
great piece. when you are raised by a NPD, you often question your own self and motives .. always afraid you will also be NPD I think the difference between daydreaming & grandioso is also overlooked Someone who avoids, isolates, also uses daydreaming as an escape It is not the same as dreaming of being great & powerful, as in grandioso NPD From where I’m standing, I see how the differences are overlooked ... you made some great distinctions, comparisons, & points Thank you for making these videos :) 🙏
Wouldn't it make sense for someone with AvPD to be envious of others? AvPD patients do want connections with others but struggle to form them and/or feel they aren't worthy of them. Logically wouldn't AvPD patients be jealous of people who are able to form meaningful relationships?
This presents a good argument for careful and ongoing assessment. I see how certain criteria (arrogance, entitlement, and lack of empathy) may seem characteristic of avoidant as well as narcissistic, yet it is a misperception of avoidant personality. This misperception along with comorbidity with others disorders, can create confusion. I also see why it is important to make certain of other criteria, more distinct, for the disorder. The criteria of admiration and exploitation consistent with narcissistic are contrary to avoidant personality disorder and the criteria of inept and inferior consistent with avoidant are contrary to narcissistic.
Thank you for making all of your vids Dr Grande, this one especially. For the longest time I thought that I was a narcissist like uncles and aunts on both sides of my family. It’s a relief to think that I was mistaken and I have Avoidant. Pardon my phrases here but I would rather be a shut in than a diabolical figure any day. Much less guilt.
It's very simple. Narcissists are never anxious or fearful, they lack a fear response in the brain. Avoidants are nothing but anxious and fearful. Might I suggest that APD is caused by Narcissistic Abuse in the first place. Was wondering when APD first shows itself. I was outgoing and confident before the age of five and very slowly became avoidant after prolonged Narcissistic Abuse.
Rapunzel Mane I heard the two are connected. I have a covert malignant narcissist mother, and I am pretty sure I have avoidant personality. Also we end up doing it to ourselves. I always felt like I wasn't human. Mom is emotionally and psychically abusive.
Narcissists do fear being exposed. They just .....are incapable of realizing that their own behavior, LOL, is what always exposes them. They... Learn to fear exposure only because of past failed attempts at controlling a target. When the target abandons them they "FEAR" that happening the next time, but again, they don't change the behavior that caused the first target to leave in the first place. They do however learn to become more covert in the beginning of a "relationship. IMO, Covert narcissistic behavior is absolutely a narcissist showing "fear" in their own way.
Rapunzel Mane your comment gave me much to think about..thank you! I'm APD, raised by NPD, wasnt allowed to have needs, show emotion ever. I've dated the same alcoholic narcissist over and over my entire life. I'm learning. Healing.
I respectfully disagree. The fight or flight mechanism is stuck in the on position for narcs sociopaths. Normal people in a burning theatre will trample others without a thought to escape. Later looking back a person will secretly feel bad about it but keep it to themselves in shame. Secretly narcs and sociopaths feel bad too but it's them or me. Same as the theatre goer.
I really struggled to see in my life that I had narcistic traits because I think they were masked by some other or overlapping issues such as anxiety and avoidant traits. I was always a very scared child, my mum was anxious and my dad was scary. I was bullied and did some bullying too. I developed panic and agoraphobia quite young age 13 and it had times it was better (not cured) and other times debilitating. I can't pinpoint was my defense mechanisms/narcisistic traits appeared but I put a lot of my behaviour down to being anxious and thought I had an anxious/fearful attachment style. I would start fights with my ex as to avoid social situations or family meals, I would feel scared to meet her friends and family and knew I always put a front on and felt inferior whilst lying and saying I was confident. I'd say I'm introverted and that's silly I don't want to go when I was scared. I was manipulative because I didn't know how to express myself or emotions and thought that this was a way not to appear weak when it's clear I just want to feel accepted. I'm still trying to get to the bottom of which of my behaviours come from which disorder or trait and try to prevent myself from doing them. I realise when I'm not pretending to be confident I become very avoidant and quite dependant on others which I am very ashamed about. maybe I have never got over my agoraphobia because I was actually scared to. putting on my narc suit definitely feels comfortable and if it didn't hurt others and meant I could show love and affection and have a full life I think I'd walk around with it on all the time. looking underneath is a very painful experience. looking back over the years I feel kind of stupid for not knowing this although I knew my behaviour wasn't normal for someone of my age. I hope one day I can be like others and not make people feel small so I feel bigger because them feeling small is the feeling I'm constantly running away from. I am not excusing my behaviour and anyone with these personality traits would get huge amounts of sympathy if it wasn't for the fact that others get hurt by this. hopefully this awakening is the start of my road to a more fulfilling life. I'd like to thank you dr Grande as your videos have been very helpful to me in helping to try and decide what I feel.
There's no comparison in my humble opinion. I have avoidant PD. Edited. There is a post with a gent stating that NPS & Avoidant PD similarities are similar such as extreme sensitivity to criticism. This is true. I do not even want to think my avoidant PD is even in the same time zone with traits similar to narcissism. Ugh. #vomit
Thank you, thank you, thank you for this. I wish I had your words to share when I lost my own ability to speak back 15+ yrs ago. My life imploded and hasn't recovered. I couldn't even utter the words "Please help me" because the narcissistic ex targeting me was so very effective.
Not much time or thought is put into assessment. People wind up on disability and lost in the mental health system. This happens due to lack of money for proper treatment. I have to figure out myself on UA-cam. But I do thank god for that since I can't afford treatment education etc. That is the life of people from several dysfunctional families who can't catch a break or get even minimal preparation education for life. And if I hear that"all families are dysfunctional" line again. Some are beyond that. Not much time spent on "assessment." people are often pigeon hole early on.
..I want to see how a narcissistic parent..or an alcoholic parent..or childhood abuse and/or emotional neglect.. I want to see how those similar types of parents contribute to dysfunctional children including the initial trauma that causes another generation of narcissism or the other split..avoidant personality
My wife is narcissistic and I am avoidant. No medically diagnosed just my opinion. Does this make sense that we get along. I feel shes so preoccupied with herself that she doesnt pay me much attention and I dont like attention.
Ryan Fausnaugh it makes sense why you would be together but it’s not a healthy relationship. You are probably being abused by her in ways that validate your beliefs about yourself.
Could also be schizoid PD. I don't think avoidants hate attention from everyone, it's just they don't like it with strangers and people they don't feel comfortable with. I see myself as avoidant, not diagnosed and I mostly don't like attention but there are very few people who I would love to get their attention. Especially in a romantic relationship, I can be avoidant at the beginning but once I feel comfortable and trust the partner I don't avoid their attention. It's just that I need some time for myself from time to time. And you not liking the attention from your wife is a bit confusing to me and seems like something a schizoid will say because a schizoid really don't care about getting attention or not, they even prefer without any attention and also they have difficulties to bond to people emotionally. They don't lack empathy they just can't see any point in having emotional relationships. Avoidants don't have a problem of bonding but they have a fear of bonding to the wrong people because they have been badly hurt by in their past. Avoidants actually CRAVE healthy relationships. It can be you're avoidant and because of your narcissistic wife, she "groomed" you to not like her attention so you won't bother her. Narcissists see giving others attention as a chore and they try to avoid it most of the time and give you little crumbs so you won't complain. So it could be that she gave you negative attention to the point that you don't like and want it anymore. Narcissists groom their victims to behave as they want. And it's hard to recognize it. Try to think of who you were before her with different people in your life and try to see what has changed in you and try even to see how you behave with other people now when your wife is not there. People change drastically when they are with narcissists. Make sure you haven't changed because of her.
The covert narc doesn't appear arrogant, he/she maintains a controlled attitude of false empathy and concern. The overt in my experience is very arrogant.
We see quite a few diffrences between AvPD and NPD when comparing AvPD to grandiose narcissism, but when we compare AvPD to COVERT narcissism - There are very little diffrences.
Haven’t listened but this is what I need to understand. I am a recovering avoidant working overtime to heal myself. I think I’ve been discarded by a narcissist. Sadly I’ve demonstrated some immature traits during our short time together. Because of this the situation isn’t Black and white. I feel like I’ve exposed myself and admitted that I’ve reacted out of fear. I also see a therapist every week to help me get better. He on the other hand hasn’t admitted to being weird due to fear or feelings. He keeps it all to himself. He has however apologized and shown effort when I’ve spoken up. I don’t know what to do. I just don’t know.
I might be a INTP, ACE:7, schzoid, cptsd, avoidant, depressed vulnerable narcissist, mild-mannered psychopath or just a Native person in a very sick world.
In my understanding both narcissistic and avoidant personality disorders tend not to look for help. With narcissistic they don't acknowledge there is a problem and feeling of superiority. With avoidant they stay isolated and avoid making contact with others in fear of being criticised and the constant believe of inferiority. Have they both come to terms this behaviour is unhealthy and problematic, it's possible they do become envious, on the understanding what you lack and others have bases. Both are in their own way loners though. Thank you Dr. Todd Grande for laying out the symptoms and criteria in comparison. As a man with a recently diagnosed AvPD I watch these videos for educational purposes. My kind regards to you from Holland.
I would appreciate a separate video on covert narcissism vs avoidant attachment because there seems to be far more overlap in primary traits for these two. The lack of empathy, selfishness, silent treatment to those who disagree with or confront them, etc... I’m struggling to sort this out with my partner to know how best to approach the situation.
Same exact thing here. I keep going back and forth between "he's a covert narc" and "he has avoidant attachment." At the end of the day, due to the overlap, I'm thinking it's both. IDK if I'm just fooling myself but no matter how much I research and analyze, at the end of the day it seems to me that I cannot conclude this dude is a FULL blown narc, with NPD and all. So when I say "it's both" I mean just that: avoidants have narcissistic tendencies. Some will display it a lot more than others. But this doesn't mean they have an actual personality disorder with practically no hope of reversing their patterns. Where I have to be careful is in thinking that I have to help fix him or something. Nope. I concentrate on myself only. And I help when needed, just not at the expense of my own needs. Don't tolerate bad behavior, doesn't matter if the person isn't a full blown narc and is just an avoidant with narc traits. We deserve better. So be careful and take good care of yourself. Set and maintain boundaries.
But people with avpd generally don’t lack empathy. Of anything they have a lot of it. It least for me. I always feel guilty, even for things i know aren’t really my fault.
I’d like to understand the differentiation better also. They seem to be one in the same! Especially when it comes to lack of empathy. I don’t think you could give someone the silent treatment without a pretty high level of entitlement and low level of empathy.
@@heretolearn7813 if someone treats you like shit, should you start argueing like a fool or be silent, the best way is to set boundaries ofc, but avpd people are to afraid to do that
AVP can come across as quite similar to vulnerable narcissism. The introverted, shy, brooding, sensitive aspects in particular. And I think AVP is what all narcissists truly feel on the inside if you can ever see past their vicious outer shell.
I was diagnosed with AVPD by my psychiatrist a couple of years ago now and have been constantly plagued with worries about what kind of person I truly am. I'm fearful of losing people around me, of upsetting them, offending them and I can't help but analyse myself, am I selfish? Am I inconsiderate? When I came across an article about 'covert narcissism' I become so fearful that I am a narcissist that I honestly didn't know what to do with myself. Ever since I read that, I question my behaviour further and am filled with worry, am I horrible person? What are my motives? Am I being manipulative? Do I deserve this life of isolation because I'm a terrible, self-obsessed person? It confuses and upsets me a hell of a lot. I have no idea who I am.
this is very helpful. i have signs of narcissism and personality changes that happened after a spinal cord injury and head injury and avoidant personality disorder seems to be more fitting than NPD.
Chief, I think you may have responded to a mistake in the question. Could it be that the questioner was asking about the difference between avoidant _attachment_ style and NPD, which is sometimes described as an extreme version of the same? For instance, the confusion between anger as a distancing behaviour and narcissistic rage. I too would appreciate a careful differentiation. Thank you.
I have OCPD and also avoidant features. Yes, when I was not aware I had this I appeared narcissistic in that I had no empathy for others, I would split and run due to fear, shame, and anxiety. Can you please, please, please teach us how to stop being avoidant? Maybe make a video to help people?
I thought it was interesting that someone could be diagnosed as having Avoidant Personality Disorder and Narcissistic Personality Disorder but realistically only have one of the disorders. Disorders in the same cluster are usually co-morbid.
I’ve been diagnosed as both AVPD and bipolar type 2. During a hypomanic stretch my ego soars to infinity and I experience a lot of grandiosity, to the point where I think I’m the next Buddha or Steve Jobs. But most of the time just hate myself. But I also have very high empathy.
I actually think that it is very probable to have both narcissistic and avoidant. for example, one with narcissistic might feel deeply ashamed for it, and so instead of trying to deal with it he would strugle to hide it from his environment and himself by avoiding social interaction, thus forming avoidant personality disorder.
Lets moral they for starters dont believe have any pd, narcissitic for sure not. They are not ashemed of what they did. They spin the narrative to be an innocent victim who was wronged and abandoned by all these horrible people. There is nothing wrong with them in their mind. And without others admiration they would starve to mental death.
@@CanaryBlack0 Validation is seen as a positive thing. What is different with Avoidant, if I understand it correctly, is they do not actively seek it and it is actually uncomfortable instead of pleasurable. I wouldn't think that the motive for all relationships can be reduced to a need for validation either.
This was so helpful. Thank you for being so clear. My question is, how would you differentiate between an avoidant personality type and a covert narcissist? Or are they one in the same?
I think Dismissive Avoidants are Narcissistic, the type to "breadcrumb" in relationships and Fearful Avoidants just have trust issues and open up when it's safe.
This is very timely - i have just been researching this topic the last couple of weeks trying to work out if my girl is a covert somatic narcisscist or a AVpd sufferer
And? Did you found out? I'm trying to find it out for my ex bf as well..I might accuse him wrongly being a narcissist..he might have AVPD..so confusing
@@eyeoffthetiger2691 what's the difference? you'd accuse him of being narcissistic but you wouldn't accouse him of being AVPD? He's screwed if either of your hunches are correct.
I'm odd eccentric, worried fearful. Not dramatic erratic. I am inept too. I am dx ASD, moderate intellectual disability. Oh and pragmatic social communication disorder. Substance use common in avpd. I've heard vulnerable narcissism very close to avpd but some differences. Doesn't everyone have grandiose fantasies for entertainment or to feel good? Very interesting!
Hmm. I've watched it twice and still can't work out which my ex-husband was. He did think he was better than others, but he still feared rejection and judgment. He would be angry with other people for their perceived judgment of him, and dump on them in private. He isolated me the more he feared my rejection of him. He would woo people by eliciting their pity. That's why I married him. (Aww the cute talented shy man.) But he definitely avoided jobs where he might be rejected. Very fragile ego. However when he was working with people, and doing well, he felt an inflated ego, which some found off-putting.
C H, Kevin was referring to vulnerable/covert narcissism which is not yet a diagnosis in the DSM, it does exist however and has been decently researched in the field. It may likely be the case that there is overlap between the constructs of vulnerable narcissism and AvPD, or as he suggested a high comorbidity
EyeOff TheTiger easy! Does he show sincere empathy or remorse? If not: narc. Does he need cronies and supporters needs others attention? If yes a narc. Does this person admit to his faults and changes behavior accordingly? If not: a narc. Does this person verbally/emotionally/financially/sexually abuse you? If yes: a narc.
Is there a similar issue with a crossover in BPD and OCPD and how certain criteria can be perceived as being from one PD when it may belong to the other PD depending on how things are interpreted?
It also stresses the need for getting a 2nd opinion. Also, I'm thinking that 2 people with Avoidant Personality Disorder that liked each other, would never be able to get together & therefore would need to choose partners who were extroverts.
I have heard that narcissitics personality disorder has different subcategories, including one in which the person feels inferior and thus have to act in a way that makes them seen. Couldn't that be an overlap to AvPD?
How to distinguish between narcissistic and avoiding type disorder ? Look at where the anger is directed. Narcissistic direct anger and other ppl, it's all other ppl's fault. For ppl with avoidant disorder the anger is directed inward-it is all my fault
Hmm... Elements of this plus my high narcissism explains the conundrum of personal responsibility I have. I try my best to to what is necessary such that I make no mistakes, and so I have a hard time dealing with the fact that sometimes people or things get in my way, and that's where I get upset and feel no real fault. At the same time, I consider things I could have done differently so I don't end up there, and that's where the regret abd feelings of inadequacy come in. Kind of a tense battle going on in my head when something happens to me.
There is good cross over when looked at from the lens of attachment research with the "disorganized attachment" showing a possibility for cluster b and c traits together going through shifts. At what level these show up as dsm classified personality disorders is another matter, but none the less this also could account for the likelihood of these traits coming in cycles or one individual
you just described me completely. i have a fearful avoidant attachment, and generally avoid romance because i either feel insecure or smothered. half the time i feel worried about ridicule and the other half of the time i feel like i’m the hottest in the room. anything is possible really.
What about someone who uses the one close person in there life but avoiding close interpersonal relationships with any one else while also seeking validation from strangers?
I started to think I was a narcissist because I have a narcissist father and I thought my ex was one too but I think he may have been an avoidant his parents are also narcissist. He has learned how to make a narcissist suffer ... I reminded him of his mother and he cut me off . Because I wanted a commitment. He thought I wanted to control him. He only accused me of being a narcissist when I accused him... I’m a empath so can’t possibly be a narcissist thank god lol.
They're both personality disorders; therefore, it would be virtually miraculous for them to realize their illness and find the courage and desire to become a completely different person.
If you have been with a narcissist for long period of time (parent, long relationship) u learn how to mirror them and how they treat people . I was a total narc toward my next lover . But inside my empath feelings were crushed . Only because he reminded me of my narc . Trying to control me by guilt tripping me for not reciprocating his love and affection... narcs don’t show love like that but I was so sure he was one I made sure to give no attention and show very little love and affection. Just enough to keep him around . I was becoming a narc but only on the outside inside I felt empathy and knew I was wrong . That’s why a love avoidant may seem like a narc. But inside ... they are just protecting themselves ..
What about Dependant PD vs NPD ? Are they commorbid ? Seems to me I know one person with BOTH these disorders at the same time .... Dr Grande could you please make a separate video and elaborate on that ?
I was first diagnosed with NPD, I mean not really diagnosed but my therapist thought that would be it. Then the other therapist after a lot of talks wih me diagnosed me with AvPD
I’m pretty sure I’m avoidant. I don’t view myself as better but it’s like I look down on people because most lack something (most likely intellect). I don’t think My personality or appearance is superior but I still devalue them. I know I’m shit inside and out but I can’t help but to think I’m better in some complex way. What does this mean? Is there a disorder that is connected to this?( yes I feel all this while feeling Profoundly inept)
I have been to many doctors and received a few different diagnosis. There is always the regular attention deficit, but if I’m not labeled as bipolar or borderline within the first five minutes just because of my boobs, I get a diagnosis of npd and avpd. Do you think attention deficit and ptsd could mimic some of the symptoms of avpd? The trouble initiating new relationships, avoiding relationships unless you know you will be liked, the feelings of ineptitude and inferiority, not trying new things due to fear of embarrassment, etc? I genuinely feel like doctors do not want to diagnose me with just npd since I’m not a cisgender man.
But wouldn't someone with AVPD, who fears rejection and that is the worst thing that could happen, also come across as craving attention/ narcissistic/ arrogant as they will go to extremes to "fit in" and lose their entire identity for the sake of approval from other people??
Losing youre entire idendity in what sense? We all but on masks and avpds will put on more mask because of fear, but they have strong boundaries what you cant cross, even though they let you go quite far because they dont like confrotation
Can NPD be misdiagnosed as APD when a narcissist has had a narcissistic injury (ie their mask was lifted, and others discovered their covert narcissistic behavior)? I'm asking because someone close to me displayed classic NPD behavior, but was outed for infidelity with picture evidence. Now, this person acts like a completely changed individual, but I have read that NPD rarely remits, and that those who have NPD can become more covert after a narcissistic injury.
Would it be fair to say that someone could have either NPD or AvPD, and then have subclinical presentation of the other one? such as someone who meets the criteria for AvPD but who has the fantasies of unlimited success? Think of "The Secret Life of Walter Mitty" by James Thurber. Or someone who meets criteria of NPD but who has great anxiety about possible failures (conscious or not) and engages in some significant avoidant behavior? Of how about being subclinical in both? What about someone who is incredibly gifted in one area of ability, and extremely proud of it, feeling superior to others and having vast dreams of where it could take them in life, while being below average in some other skill areas, uncomfortable, embarrassed that someone as great as them could perform so poorly anywhere, and tends to actively avoid the activities they are bad at? (leading to some really dysfunctional avoidant behaviors) Could someone in that situation present as nearly but not quite meeting the criteria for both disorders, thus understandably being overdiagnosed as actually having both?
Walter MItty makes one think of maladaptive daydreaming too. I don't know if he'd meet all the criteria for AvPD. But he seems to use his daydreaming to escape, and seems to engage in avoidant behavior by mentally checking out to escape his wife, while seeming to have limited social support.
Thanks to all the comments from others i understand how anyone can ever mix up an avoidant with a (vulnerable, covert) narcissist. What really confuses me are narcissists and histrionics. Both strive for admiration, and i understand that narcs do it because they feel entitled and better than others, and histrionics want that because they long for attention. But are histrionics as unempathetic and exploitative as narcissists?
Suedetussy i'm no authority, but i watched an overtly sexual and flirtatious attention seeker individual, possible histrionic, engage in relationships were money was flowing her way. She pretty much played damsel in distress but possible she felt entitled for financial gain for her favors. And it was not a job for her, it was a chosen lifestyle.
Hi Todd. My girl always tells me that she doesnt get excited about anything and is scared of the future? Would that be avpd or npd specific? Some other details she is a professional belly dancer but is terrified of situations that require interpersonal interaction. She acts cold and arrogant sometimes and can be very insensitive and hurtful however i think this may be her way of protecting herself and pushing me away.. as such from all the above i was thinking she might be a covert somatic narcissist but avpd seems to fit. Any thoughts? ..
I am closer to avoidant but, I don’t think I have a personality disorder. I just don’t like being with people and wasting time, when I could be working on personal projects and being productive. I’m no psychologist but, I wonder whether substance abuse has anything to do with lack of substance abuse. I know that sounded strange but, here’s what I mean. Substance abuse is usually associated with alcohol and drug abuse and is self destructive. But, are things like refusing to be diagnosed and taking medication also considered to be as self destructive? I ask because my mother is a covert/overt narcissist (dependent on the day and situation) who is diabetic and has memory loss and neuropathic feet. She has rotted out her teeth, as well. Now, I do know that there might be natural tooth decay and loss as we age. But, there was a time I took her to the store and she disappeared. I found her in the candy aisle. As I know her better than anyone, although I am finding out that I have to learn more about her as she ages and changes, I could see that, despite the fact that she knew her teeth were rotting, there was an absolute, zombie-like dependence upon obtaining the candy and my feeling is that it was paired with lack of basic oral care. As I don’t live with her, there was not much I could do. Last year, she was diagnosed with diabetes and prescribed metformin but has not renewed her prescription, no matter how often I’ve inquired. Before you wonder how my comment even got here, it is because I realized that she was a self-destructive, family-destructive, narcissist who was triangulating my sister and I. While she has memory loss/dementia, she’s not always that innocent. Getting back on topic, regarding self destruction, her replies to me coercing her to have her blood sugar tested and likely having metformin re-prescribed have been thwarted by it being a “new” conversation each time - backed up by the fact that she says she doesn’t want to take Mentax for her feet, as well as metformin, when the metformin addresses the most likely original source of her neuropathy and likely some of her brain fog and bad behavior. For her, having yet another conversation regarding her diabetes and also accepting me taking her to see a neurologist ends up being more of a conversation where I am to be manipulated into exasperation, than the situation being solved. Underneath it all, the solution for her is not to be diagnosed with dementia and/or diabetes. For her, the solution is to be the absolute wrecking ball of her life and her children’s lives, while being in denial that anything is wrong, despite the fact that even her plumber and her accountant have let me know she has issues, as well. As I am low contact with her and won’t let her ruin my life, without her suffering severe consequences, I’ve let her know that, if she decides not to accept professional help, not take medication she needs, decides to work towards her own deterioration, that is her option. That it will be her crawling around on her knees once her feet have been amputated, while I and my sister continue our working lives as, we don’t have any other choices. But, again, it feels as if “lack of substance abuse” for lack of a better term at the moment, can be just as destructive as substance abuse.
Is CPTSD often komorbid with the avoidant personality disorder? I wonder for i never heard of it before but, feel, that that is just me.... I am diagnosed CPTSD, only one time a doctor thought it could be borderline, i understand that these two are very close, but different. I seem to get in touch with all kinds of cluster b personalities, they just love me and caused me so much pain.... I am very fearful of many things, very insecure and on the other hand searching and fighting. What can i do to get over this? IEMDR helped in one case, but still i tend to give in to relationships with highly manipulative people. Which appear very nice, charming, intelligent, etc. at first, but then they become so vicious, steal, lie.... and i always doubt myself. Even after physical abuse. I did so much work, longterm psychotherapy, meditation..... again i am hooked into a toxic relationship... When i am overwhelmed i tend to abuse of substances... Nearly 40 years now. If i wasn`t a mother i`d love to just die. Here in germany there is not that much of information available... Any recommendation?
When I spoke to my M.D. about narcissists harassing me it appeared that she didn’t like it.hmmmmmm. I think she was expecting what she misread as my sycophant personality; but instead, she spoke to me. She didn’t like it. I can only conclude that some Dr. (by Law) have to ask if you are safe, but don’t want to know if you are or not. Odd behaviors for a Physician.
wrong. i have had avoidant personality disorder since i can remember as well as body dysmorphia. BUT i fluctuate between feelings of inferiority and superiority constantly. anything is possible.
Both "personality" & "Personality disorders" (PD) are situational. He hinted this with drug (substance abuse) affected persons. So the person then assumes the personality & PD of the drug. Without the drug, or in other situations (work, home, leisure, etc) ... Another personality & another PD appears. The clearest examples are the tobacco & cannabis users. When they use or not use, the massive changes happen.
Hi doctor may you please tell me if avoidant people also love bomb! Or is that associated with narcissists only? Would be greatly appreciated if you respond 😊😊
from my own personal experience as an avoidant I believe blank stares are often the result of performance anxiety or simply shutting down from overstimulation or desire to avoid confrontation. I'm not too sure an avoidant would necessarily resort to staring as much as looking away or focusing on some other object (like their hands for example). As I understand it, overt staring can also be a manipulative tactic used by psychopaths or sociopaths and possibly malignant narcissists to disarm others. I think that avoidants may give the silent treatment in a desperate attempt to control a relationship in a non confrontational way- yes.
Wouldn't be narcissistic disorder more similar to fearfull avoidants? Because the love bombing phase could be identified as the anxious part of feargull avoidants
I think that a person can develop an 'Avoidant personality disorder' as a result of being exposed to a person with a narcissistic personality disorder over a prolonged period of time. For example a child or sibling of a narcissist
I think you're right. When I realized that I have AvPD and read up as to what could cause it, I understood that it was most likely my narcissistic brother that instilled all of these feelings of being inadequate, inferior and useless into me. He was essentially bullying and abusing me throughout my childhood.
I have this. For years I thought that I was a narcissist, but growing up in a family where neglect and narcissistic abuse has occured for decades, I've become this numb person who fears rejection and abandonment. Helped me a lot to realize this. Now I'm on my journey to recovery and making peace with the situation and most of all, myself.
I think was on the way to it because of another person too ...
I think it's the construct of covert narcissism that has people confused, Dr. Grande. Many descriptions of covert narcissists online describe them as shy, timid, fearful with low self-esteem. Researchers need to get to the bottom of what covert narcissism is and how it presents vs other personality types or the confusion will continue.
I am always in support of more research. We have a lot to learn yet about narcissism.
This is excellent. As a "typical guy" I have been labeled as "covert narc" by an angrey spouse before. I read a recent book on it; reckon i am more likely "dismissive avoidant "/ i.e. normal male, pysch/culture-aware, without clinical morbidities.
I think that vulnerable narcissism have some similiraties with avoidanant pd.
I agree that Vulnerable narcissism and Avoidant Personality Disorder could be confused. I recall hearing that often people high in trait narcissism will swing between Grandiose and Vulnerable states over time. It may be that patients are diagnosed with Avoidant Personality Disorder during a period of Vulnerable narcissism and Narcissistic Personality Disorder during a period where they are expressing grandiose traits.
I wonder if maladaptive shame-processing links Narcissistic Personality Disorder and Avoidant Personality Disorder. People with Avoidant seem to aim a lot of aggression and criticism inwards and are hypersensitive to experiencing shame. Conversely, people with Narcissistic and Antisocial seem to externalise their aggression by victimising and shaming others.
this is just my opinion based of my own observation / experience, but this is my sound judgement on what i have known / what research explains. if timorous schizotypals are not vulnerable narcissists, then vulnerable narcissist concept should be removed entirely because it's not helpful, and just vague. people might as well stick to the covert vs overt ways of addressing "narcissism".
that way, it can be better understood as the same condition or problem, much the same way with ADD vs ADHD which recently up to this point, a lot of people seem to believe ADD is actually the newer SCT condition ( sluggish cognitive tempo ) when clearly Barkley's research shows qualitative differences and ADD is just ADHD manifested a little differently, but the core of the disorder still is the same. that's why it's sort of useless to say something like is ADHD different in girls, well, the answer to that is not anymore different than someone who likes to eat pizzas instead of burgers, in other words, it doesn't matter...
researchers aren't gonna get to the bottom line of it unless people like me can get accepted for research to educate them on these things and give the truth.
do you know how sad it is to know about something your whole life that's extremely important to society and your own cause but never having the option of getting it acknowledged properly, and that thing in particular is my research survey which could have educated people better but unfortunately, because i don't have the requirements such as being in a university or college entity, financial reasons, and just other people being stupid, my study is basically sitting there in the dust never able to get any participants and published, while i have to watch regularly all these years these worthless stupid studies that often aren't even done on clinical populations.
so a bigger answer to your question is clinical population research surveys are the problem, not being able to target these people and / or getting enough of a sample size / putting it out there to get people is the problem, as a result, the few studies that do get the samples tend to be biased and / or not representing things accurately.
i was called a covert narcissist by my ex gf because i didn't want to go to her parents for christmas. Before that i had no interest in any of this stuff and i didn't think there was much wrong with me but when she started going through the symptoms and psychoanalyzing me and watching youtube videos about covert narcissism i started to recognize some of my symptoms and she talked me into believing i had just about all of them and my avoidance was actually a wounded ego that couldn't tolerate rejection. I went to see a counselor and thankfully in my first meeting she put my mind at ease when she said a narcissist wouldn't have come so easily. In the end i was diagnosed with AVPD and it worked out well because it's better for me to be aware of it so i can try to manage myself better but be careful because most of these amateur psychoanalysts and so called narc survivalists are probably narcs themselves; gaslighting is just another way for a narcissist to abuse and control their victims and really why would any normal person have such an interest in psychology and weaponizing it to label other people?
Where I believe theses separate disorders can get confused is in the area of "narcissistic wounding". Both disorders result in increased sensitivity to preceived slights and where these individuals over react in very defensive manners, including rage, passive aggressiveness, devalue and discard of personal relationships.
Very well said!
Wait, what about avoidant Vs COVERT narcissism? These 2 seem more similar & hard to discern.
I'm trying to figure out someone
Thank you, Dr. Grande! I guess that an avoidant person can be more readily confused with a "thin-skinned", or vulnerable narcissist (as opposed to an arrogant or "thick-skinned" narcissist). At a risk of simplifying, I would propose that one important difference between an avoidant person and a vulnerable narcissist is that the latter would think indignantly, "They do not understand or accept me; what's wrong with them!", while the former would think pensively, "They do not understand or accept me; what's wrong with me?" Ironically, and notwithstanding all the narcissistic claims of self-sufficiently and independence, the avoidant position seems to be more powerful of the two, because if something is wrong with me, then I can do at least something about it. The narcissistic externalization of blame for being misunderstood seems to be a much weaker stance, since it places all locus of personal control on other ("cruel" and "miserable") people. Does this make sense at all?
You're welcome! Yes, your personality disorder conceptualization makes sense. Often, personality disorders can be differentiated by looking at the underlying thoughts and rationale rather than feelings and behaviors, because the feelings and behaviors may be similar or identical from one personality disorder presentation to the next.
Todd Grande thank you for sharing your knowledge , very insightful way of explaining this and your other mental health video topics .
Makes great sense to me.
This is a perfect way to see the difference between them!
This was the difference between me and my former best friend.
When we were students, we were similar. But she always seemed stronger than me, was surrounded by many friends who admired her radiant personality.
But when we hit our 30’s, her personality became difficult for me. I noticed that she always blamed others for her problems. Also, she started to blame me, and my first reaction is to think about it, whether there’s something true about it.
And eventually i got tired from her lack of responsibility over herself and putting the blame on others and left her.
She gave me one last tantrum about me being illoyal and a false friend for leaving her in a moment, where she needs support (socially isolated at workplace, living in a different country, permanent conflicts with her partner, having health problems).
Why i feel no guilt is: she had used these reasons before to legitimate her aggressive behavior towards me and i had offered her my advice to think about her tribute to her conflicts with partner and colleagues - and i told her about a job vacancy at my company, so she doesn’t have to work abroad anymore with all those „difficult“ foreign people.
I am shy, but i don’t disrupt the social dynamics in my company, nevertheless leave a general good impression and i am very liked by colleagues who know me better, because i work good, i am helpful, and never impose myself on others.
So, you’re very right about everything. When the APD managed to overcome their fears, they overtake themselves and a narcissist.
You explained that really well
I believe I have avoidant traits and it’s due to narcissistic parenting.
Same
Same.
Same
Mine is due to an abusive brother.. I’m completely avoidant and lack a lot empathy. Also have been diagnosed with depression and PTSD.
My whole family is very superficial and narcicisrtic
To me it sounds like avoidants are like textbook examples of what Craig Malkin calls "echoist", people who are the opposite of narcissists. They feel very uncomfortable if they get any admiration or attention. They would like to be invisible. For a narcissist being invisible would be like death.
Dear Dr. Grande, could you make a video about childhood emotional neglect ? Can it effect to personality disorder ? Thank you..
Sunset Rose try books by Alice Miller
I worry sometimes that I have both. Can a person with narcissistic personality disorder have dependent disorder as well? I definitely have dependent disorder. I think my isolation from AvPD causes me to fantasize about a reality where I am successful and admired. Sometimes I think if I didn't have this avoidant disorder that I could do important things that would change society. Then I think I don't really have the skills to pull it off, but I enjoy the fantasy.
Zartan You heard of codependency right. I also fantasize too, I heard most avoidants do.
Z you’re similar to me
"All narcissists are codependent, but not all codependents are narcissists." The difference is that narcissists are entitled and exploitative. Your run of the mill codependent is not.
I have the same. I feel i have so much potential. And i think about how good my life could have been. But i don’t think i feel beter then others.
@@ShadowsMasquerade You are 1000 percent right .🙏
great piece.
when you are raised by a NPD, you often question your own self and motives .. always afraid you will also be NPD
I think the difference between daydreaming & grandioso is also overlooked
Someone who avoids, isolates, also uses daydreaming as an escape
It is not the same as dreaming of being great & powerful, as in grandioso NPD
From where I’m standing, I see how the differences are overlooked ... you made some great distinctions, comparisons, & points
Thank you for making these videos :) 🙏
Wouldn't it make sense for someone with AvPD to be envious of others? AvPD patients do want connections with others but struggle to form them and/or feel they aren't worthy of them. Logically wouldn't AvPD patients be jealous of people who are able to form meaningful relationships?
"Dramatic and erratic" - yep, that sums it up perfectly!
This presents a good argument for careful and ongoing assessment. I see how certain criteria (arrogance, entitlement, and lack of empathy) may seem characteristic of avoidant as well as narcissistic, yet it is a misperception of avoidant personality. This misperception along with comorbidity with others disorders, can create confusion. I also see why it is important to make certain of other criteria, more distinct, for the disorder. The criteria of admiration and exploitation consistent with narcissistic are contrary to avoidant personality disorder and the criteria of inept and inferior consistent with avoidant are contrary to narcissistic.
Thank you for making all of your vids Dr Grande, this one especially. For the longest time I thought that I was a narcissist like uncles and aunts on both sides of my family. It’s a relief to think that I was mistaken and I have Avoidant. Pardon my phrases here but I would rather be a shut in than a diabolical figure any day. Much less guilt.
It's very simple. Narcissists are never anxious or fearful, they lack a fear response in the brain. Avoidants are nothing but anxious and fearful. Might I suggest that APD is caused by Narcissistic Abuse in the first place. Was wondering when APD first shows itself. I was outgoing and confident before the age of five and very slowly became avoidant after prolonged Narcissistic Abuse.
Rapunzel Mane I heard the two are connected. I have a covert malignant narcissist mother, and I am pretty sure I have avoidant personality. Also we end up doing it to ourselves. I always felt like I wasn't human. Mom is emotionally and psychically abusive.
Narcissists do fear being exposed. They just .....are incapable of realizing that their own behavior, LOL, is what always exposes them. They... Learn to fear exposure only because of past failed attempts at controlling a target. When the target abandons them they "FEAR" that happening the next time, but again, they don't change the behavior that caused the first target to leave in the first place. They do however learn to become more covert in the beginning of a "relationship. IMO, Covert narcissistic behavior is absolutely a narcissist showing "fear" in their own way.
Rapunzel Mane your comment gave me much to think about..thank you! I'm APD, raised by NPD, wasnt allowed to have needs, show emotion ever. I've dated the same alcoholic narcissist over and over my entire life. I'm learning. Healing.
Same here
I respectfully disagree. The fight or flight mechanism is stuck in the on position for narcs sociopaths. Normal people in a burning theatre will trample others without a thought to escape. Later looking back a person will secretly feel bad about it but keep it to themselves in shame. Secretly narcs and sociopaths feel bad too but it's them or me. Same as the theatre goer.
I really struggled to see in my life that I had narcistic traits because I think they were masked by some other or overlapping issues such as anxiety and avoidant traits. I was always a very scared child, my mum was anxious and my dad was scary. I was bullied and did some bullying too. I developed panic and agoraphobia quite young age 13 and it had times it was better (not cured) and other times debilitating. I can't pinpoint was my defense mechanisms/narcisistic traits appeared but I put a lot of my behaviour down to being anxious and thought I had an anxious/fearful attachment style. I would start fights with my ex as to avoid social situations or family meals, I would feel scared to meet her friends and family and knew I always put a front on and felt inferior whilst lying and saying I was confident. I'd say I'm introverted and that's silly I don't want to go when I was scared. I was manipulative because I didn't know how to express myself or emotions and thought that this was a way not to appear weak when it's clear I just want to feel accepted. I'm still trying to get to the bottom of which of my behaviours come from which disorder or trait and try to prevent myself from doing them. I realise when I'm not pretending to be confident I become very avoidant and quite dependant on others which I am very ashamed about. maybe I have never got over my agoraphobia because I was actually scared to. putting on my narc suit definitely feels comfortable and if it didn't hurt others and meant I could show love and affection and have a full life I think I'd walk around with it on all the time. looking underneath is a very painful experience. looking back over the years I feel kind of stupid for not knowing this although I knew my behaviour wasn't normal for someone of my age. I hope one day I can be like others and not make people feel small so I feel bigger because them feeling small is the feeling I'm constantly running away from. I am not excusing my behaviour and anyone with these personality traits would get huge amounts of sympathy if it wasn't for the fact that others get hurt by this. hopefully this awakening is the start of my road to a more fulfilling life. I'd like to thank you dr Grande as your videos have been very helpful to me in helping to try and decide what I feel.
Thank you for the clear descriptions. ☺
There's no comparison in my humble opinion. I have avoidant PD.
Edited. There is a post with a gent stating that NPS & Avoidant PD similarities are similar such as extreme sensitivity to criticism. This is true.
I do not even want to think my avoidant PD is even in the same time zone with traits similar to narcissism.
Ugh. #vomit
Thank you, thank you, thank you for this. I wish I had your words to share when I lost my own ability to speak back 15+ yrs ago. My life imploded and hasn't recovered. I couldn't even utter the words "Please help me" because the narcissistic ex targeting me was so very effective.
Sounds like every politician and rock star has the whole cluster B.
Not much time or thought is put into assessment. People wind up on disability and lost in the mental health system. This happens due to lack of money for proper treatment. I have to figure out myself on UA-cam. But I do thank god for that since I can't afford treatment education etc. That is the life of people from several dysfunctional families who can't catch a break or get even minimal preparation education for life. And if I hear that"all families are dysfunctional" line again. Some are beyond that.
Not much time spent on "assessment." people are often pigeon hole early on.
Raphaela Velasquez hear hear.
..I want to see how a narcissistic parent..or an alcoholic parent..or childhood abuse and/or emotional neglect.. I want to see how those similar types of parents contribute to dysfunctional children including the initial trauma that causes another generation of narcissism or the other split..avoidant personality
My wife is narcissistic and I am avoidant. No medically diagnosed just my opinion. Does this make sense that we get along. I feel shes so preoccupied with herself that she doesnt pay me much attention and I dont like attention.
Ryan Fausnaugh it makes sense why you would be together but it’s not a healthy relationship. You are probably being abused by her in ways that validate your beliefs about yourself.
@@Uvvibes I don't see how this should be unhealthy as much as I don't quite understand the difference yet.
Could also be schizoid PD. I don't think avoidants hate attention from everyone, it's just they don't like it with strangers and people they don't feel comfortable with. I see myself as avoidant, not diagnosed and I mostly don't like attention but there are very few people who I would love to get their attention. Especially in a romantic relationship, I can be avoidant at the beginning but once I feel comfortable and trust the partner I don't avoid their attention. It's just that I need some time for myself from time to time. And you not liking the attention from your wife is a bit confusing to me and seems like something a schizoid will say because a schizoid really don't care about getting attention or not, they even prefer without any attention and also they have difficulties to bond to people emotionally. They don't lack empathy they just can't see any point in having emotional relationships. Avoidants don't have a problem of bonding but they have a fear of bonding to the wrong people because they have been badly hurt by in their past. Avoidants actually CRAVE healthy relationships. It can be you're avoidant and because of your narcissistic wife, she "groomed" you to not like her attention so you won't bother her. Narcissists see giving others attention as a chore and they try to avoid it most of the time and give you little crumbs so you won't complain. So it could be that she gave you negative attention to the point that you don't like and want it anymore. Narcissists groom their victims to behave as they want. And it's hard to recognize it. Try to think of who you were before her with different people in your life and try to see what has changed in you and try even to see how you behave with other people now when your wife is not there. People change drastically when they are with narcissists. Make sure you haven't changed because of her.
Match made in ....well not heaven but Stasis land. Very sterile.
i am looking to write a book about a nacisist and an avoidant
The covert narc doesn't appear arrogant, he/she maintains a controlled attitude of false empathy and concern. The overt in my experience is very arrogant.
We see quite a few diffrences between AvPD and NPD when comparing AvPD to grandiose narcissism, but when we compare AvPD to COVERT narcissism - There are very little diffrences.
Haven’t listened but this is what I need to understand. I am a recovering avoidant working overtime to heal myself. I think I’ve been discarded by a narcissist. Sadly I’ve demonstrated some immature traits during our short time together. Because of this the situation isn’t Black and white. I feel like I’ve exposed myself and admitted that I’ve reacted out of fear. I also see a therapist every week to help me get better. He on the other hand hasn’t admitted to being weird due to fear or feelings. He keeps it all to himself. He has however apologized and shown effort when I’ve spoken up. I don’t know what to do. I just don’t know.
I might be a INTP, ACE:7, schzoid, cptsd, avoidant, depressed vulnerable narcissist, mild-mannered psychopath or just a Native person in a very sick world.
Thank you todd. Very clear exposition.
In my understanding both narcissistic and avoidant personality disorders tend not to look for help. With narcissistic they don't acknowledge there is a problem and feeling of superiority. With avoidant they stay isolated and avoid making contact with others in fear of being criticised and the constant believe of inferiority. Have they both come to terms this behaviour is unhealthy and problematic, it's possible they do become envious, on the understanding what you lack and others have bases. Both are in their own way loners though.
Thank you Dr. Todd Grande for laying out the symptoms and criteria in comparison. As a man with a recently diagnosed AvPD I watch these videos for educational purposes. My kind regards to you from Holland.
I would appreciate a separate video on covert narcissism vs avoidant attachment because there seems to be far more overlap in primary traits for these two. The lack of empathy, selfishness, silent treatment to those who disagree with or confront them, etc... I’m struggling to sort this out with my partner to know how best to approach the situation.
Same exact thing here. I keep going back and forth between "he's a covert narc" and "he has avoidant attachment." At the end of the day, due to the overlap, I'm thinking it's both. IDK if I'm just fooling myself but no matter how much I research and analyze, at the end of the day it seems to me that I cannot conclude this dude is a FULL blown narc, with NPD and all. So when I say "it's both" I mean just that: avoidants have narcissistic tendencies. Some will display it a lot more than others. But this doesn't mean they have an actual personality disorder with practically no hope of reversing their patterns. Where I have to be careful is in thinking that I have to help fix him or something. Nope. I concentrate on myself only. And I help when needed, just not at the expense of my own needs. Don't tolerate bad behavior, doesn't matter if the person isn't a full blown narc and is just an avoidant with narc traits. We deserve better. So be careful and take good care of yourself. Set and maintain boundaries.
But people with avpd generally don’t lack empathy. Of anything they have a lot of it. It least for me. I always feel guilty, even for things i know aren’t really my fault.
I’d like to understand the differentiation better also. They seem to be one in the same! Especially when it comes to lack of empathy. I don’t think you could give someone the silent treatment without a pretty high level of entitlement and low level of empathy.
@@heretolearn7813 if someone treats you like shit, should you start argueing like a fool or be silent, the best way is to set boundaries ofc, but avpd people are to afraid to do that
beyondios, check out this link: www.social-anxiety.com/avoidance-dependence/narcissistic-thinking-in-an-avoidance-vortex
AVP can come across as quite similar to vulnerable narcissism. The introverted, shy, brooding, sensitive aspects in particular. And I think AVP is what all narcissists truly feel on the inside if you can ever see past their vicious outer shell.
I was diagnosed with AVPD by my psychiatrist a couple of years ago now and have been constantly plagued with worries about what kind of person I truly am. I'm fearful of losing people around me, of upsetting them, offending them and I can't help but analyse myself, am I selfish? Am I inconsiderate? When I came across an article about 'covert narcissism' I become so fearful that I am a narcissist that I honestly didn't know what to do with myself. Ever since I read that, I question my behaviour further and am filled with worry, am I horrible person? What are my motives? Am I being manipulative? Do I deserve this life of isolation because I'm a terrible, self-obsessed person? It confuses and upsets me a hell of a lot. I have no idea who I am.
You need more therapy and to talk to a good professional.
this is very helpful. i have signs of narcissism and personality changes that happened after a spinal cord injury and head injury and avoidant personality disorder seems to be more fitting than NPD.
Chief, I think you may have responded to a mistake in the question. Could it be that the questioner was asking about the difference between avoidant _attachment_ style and NPD, which is sometimes described as an extreme version of the same? For instance, the confusion between anger as a distancing behaviour and narcissistic rage. I too would appreciate a careful differentiation. Thank you.
I once raised my arm alot, then never raised it.
I guess that was the day my demon was born.
Thanks Dr.Grande Love your videos. Thanks for enlightening us.
I’m an ACOA - it’s scary what neglect can do and how the overlap with PDs are actually a fine line
I have OCPD and also avoidant features. Yes, when I was not aware I had this I appeared narcissistic in that I had no empathy for others, I would split and run due to fear, shame, and anxiety. Can you please, please, please teach us how to stop being avoidant? Maybe make a video to help people?
I thought it was interesting that someone could be diagnosed as having Avoidant Personality Disorder and Narcissistic Personality Disorder but realistically only have one of the disorders. Disorders in the same cluster are usually co-morbid.
I’ve been diagnosed as both AVPD and bipolar type 2. During a hypomanic stretch my ego soars to infinity and I experience a lot of grandiosity, to the point where I think I’m the next Buddha or Steve Jobs. But most of the time just hate myself. But I also have very high empathy.
I actually think that it is very probable to have both narcissistic and avoidant.
for example, one with narcissistic might feel deeply ashamed for it, and so instead of trying to deal with it he would strugle to hide it from his environment and himself by avoiding social interaction, thus forming avoidant personality disorder.
Narcisstic people need validation from outside, avpd dont, its simple as that.
Lets moral they for starters dont believe have any pd, narcissitic for sure not. They are not ashemed of what they did. They spin the narrative to be an innocent victim who was wronged and abandoned by all these horrible people. There is nothing wrong with them in their mind. And without others admiration they would starve to mental death.
@@terehommikust1718 AvPDs only get involve with ppl if they are certain of being liked, so they do need validation from outside.
@@CanaryBlack0 Validation is seen as a positive thing. What is different with Avoidant, if I understand it correctly, is they do not actively seek it and it is actually uncomfortable instead of pleasurable. I wouldn't think that the motive for all relationships can be reduced to a need for validation either.
Great video, very factual in comparison to all the research i have done on NPD!
This was so helpful. Thank you for being so clear.
My question is, how would you differentiate between an avoidant personality type and a covert narcissist? Or are they one in the same?
Excellent question - I will add your idea to the production list.
Dr. Todd Grande awesome! Thanks 🙏🏻
@@heretolearn7813 they arent even close tp being one and the same
Differentiate in your rear view mirror and you drive away from both.
Eye opening and it explained a lot...
👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
I think Dismissive Avoidants are Narcissistic, the type to "breadcrumb" in relationships
and Fearful Avoidants just have trust issues and open up when it's safe.
This is very timely - i have just been researching this topic the last couple of weeks trying to work out if my girl is a covert somatic narcisscist or a AVpd sufferer
And? Did you found out? I'm trying to find it out for my ex bf as well..I might accuse him wrongly being a narcissist..he might have AVPD..so confusing
@@eyeoffthetiger2691 what's the difference? you'd accuse him of being narcissistic but you wouldn't accouse him of being AVPD? He's screwed if either of your hunches are correct.
Unless one studies, these subjects are confusing to nonspecislists and i really appreciate your clarification attempts.
I'm odd eccentric, worried fearful. Not dramatic erratic. I am inept too. I am dx ASD, moderate intellectual disability. Oh and pragmatic social communication disorder. Substance use common in avpd. I've heard vulnerable narcissism very close to avpd but some differences. Doesn't everyone have grandiose fantasies for entertainment or to feel good? Very interesting!
Hmm. I've watched it twice and still can't work out which my ex-husband was. He did think he was better than others, but he still feared rejection and judgment. He would be angry with other people for their perceived judgment of him, and dump on them in private. He isolated me the more he feared my rejection of him. He would woo people by eliciting their pity. That's why I married him. (Aww the cute talented shy man.) But he definitely avoided jobs where he might be rejected. Very fragile ego. However when he was working with people, and doing well, he felt an inflated ego, which some found off-putting.
Can you do a video on the difference between PTSD and CPTSD or something on ptsd ? I would find that interesting
Here you go: ua-cam.com/video/T41Pn3rIis4/v-deo.html
I think vulnerable/covert narcissism could very well be comorbid with AvPD.
Im so confused now..😩😦 i really need to know if my ex is really a narc or if he has AvPD? Could be both..
C H, Kevin was referring to vulnerable/covert narcissism which is not yet a diagnosis in the DSM, it does exist however and has been decently researched in the field. It may likely be the case that there is overlap between the constructs of vulnerable narcissism and AvPD, or as he suggested a high comorbidity
@@eyeoffthetiger2691 I took an online test that suggested I am a sadistic narcissist but also paranoid and avoidant, not at all histrionic.
EyeOff TheTiger easy! Does he show sincere empathy or remorse? If not: narc. Does he need cronies and supporters needs others attention? If yes a narc. Does this person admit to his faults and changes behavior accordingly? If not: a narc. Does this person verbally/emotionally/financially/sexually abuse you? If yes: a narc.
Is there a similar issue with a crossover in BPD and OCPD and how certain criteria can be perceived as being from one PD when it may belong to the other PD depending on how things are interpreted?
It also stresses the need for getting a 2nd opinion. Also, I'm thinking that 2 people with Avoidant Personality Disorder that liked each other, would never be able to get together & therefore would need to choose partners who were extroverts.
Interesting as always.. thank you Doc 😀
Very detailed information that is truly helpful for the course final.
I have heard that narcissitics personality disorder has different subcategories, including one in which the person feels inferior and thus have to act in a way that makes them seen. Couldn't that be an overlap to AvPD?
How to distinguish between narcissistic and avoiding type disorder ? Look at where the anger is directed. Narcissistic direct anger and other ppl, it's all other ppl's fault. For ppl with avoidant disorder the anger is directed inward-it is all my fault
Hmm... Elements of this plus my high narcissism explains the conundrum of personal responsibility I have. I try my best to to what is necessary such that I make no mistakes, and so I have a hard time dealing with the fact that sometimes people or things get in my way, and that's where I get upset and feel no real fault. At the same time, I consider things I could have done differently so I don't end up there, and that's where the regret abd feelings of inadequacy come in. Kind of a tense battle going on in my head when something happens to me.
Why would one want to be in a relationship with someone who doesn't like he/she?
I have APD, good analysis.
Hi there thanks for posting and making it easy to understand
There is good cross over when looked at from the lens of attachment research with the "disorganized attachment" showing a possibility for cluster b and c traits together going through shifts. At what level these show up as dsm classified personality disorders is another matter, but none the less this also could account for the likelihood of these traits coming in cycles or one individual
you just described me completely. i have a fearful avoidant attachment, and generally avoid romance because i either feel insecure or smothered. half the time i feel worried about ridicule and the other half of the time i feel like i’m the hottest in the room. anything is possible really.
What about someone who uses the one close person in there life but avoiding close interpersonal relationships with any one else while also seeking validation from strangers?
I started to think I was a narcissist because I have a narcissist father and I thought my ex was one too but I think he may have been an avoidant his parents are also narcissist. He has learned how to make a narcissist suffer ... I reminded him of his mother and he cut me off . Because I wanted a commitment. He thought I wanted to control him. He only accused me of being a narcissist when I accused him... I’m a empath so can’t possibly be a narcissist thank god lol.
They're both personality disorders; therefore, it would be virtually miraculous for them to realize their illness and find the courage and desire to become a completely different person.
Very informative!
Thank u so much for making these videos
Pure gold!
I need to talk to someone like this guy
They certainly don’t get along well in a relationship
If you have been with a narcissist for long period of time (parent, long relationship) u learn how to mirror them and how they treat people . I was a total narc toward my next lover . But inside my empath feelings were crushed . Only because he reminded me of my narc . Trying to control me by guilt tripping me for not reciprocating his love and affection... narcs don’t show love like that but I was so sure he was one I made sure to give no attention and show very little love and affection. Just enough to keep him around . I was becoming a narc but only on the outside inside I felt empathy and knew I was wrong . That’s why a love avoidant may seem like a narc. But inside ... they are just protecting themselves ..
What about Dependant PD vs NPD ? Are they commorbid ?
Seems to me I know one person with BOTH these disorders at the same time ....
Dr Grande could you please make a separate video and elaborate on that ?
Is there anger in the avoidant pd because of all the inhibitions and not having the close-ness that they want?
Helpful, thanks for sharing
I was first diagnosed with NPD, I mean not really diagnosed but my therapist thought that would be it. Then the other therapist after a lot of talks wih me diagnosed me with AvPD
There is a LOT of crossover between the two tbh
I’m pretty sure I’m avoidant. I don’t view myself as better but it’s like I look down on people because most lack something (most likely intellect). I don’t think My personality or appearance is superior but I still devalue them. I know I’m shit inside and out but I can’t help but to think I’m better in some complex way. What does this mean? Is there a disorder that is connected to this?( yes I feel all this while feeling Profoundly inept)
A video on discernment between C-PTSD and AvPD - just an idea
I have been to many doctors and received a few different diagnosis. There is always the regular attention deficit, but if I’m not labeled as bipolar or borderline within the first five minutes just because of my boobs, I get a diagnosis of npd and avpd. Do you think attention deficit and ptsd could mimic some of the symptoms of avpd? The trouble initiating new relationships, avoiding relationships unless you know you will be liked, the feelings of ineptitude and inferiority, not trying new things due to fear of embarrassment, etc? I genuinely feel like doctors do not want to diagnose me with just npd since I’m not a cisgender man.
But wouldn't someone with AVPD, who fears rejection and that is the worst thing that could happen, also come across as craving attention/ narcissistic/ arrogant as they will go to extremes to "fit in" and lose their entire identity for the sake of approval from other people??
Losing youre entire idendity in what sense? We all but on masks and avpds will put on more mask because of fear, but they have strong boundaries what you cant cross, even though they let you go quite far because they dont like confrotation
Can NPD be misdiagnosed as APD when a narcissist has had a narcissistic injury (ie their mask was lifted, and others discovered their covert narcissistic behavior)? I'm asking because someone close to me displayed classic NPD behavior, but was outed for infidelity with picture evidence. Now, this person acts like a completely changed individual, but I have read that NPD rarely remits, and that those who have NPD can become more covert after a narcissistic injury.
Would it be fair to say that someone could have either NPD or AvPD, and then have subclinical presentation of the other one? such as someone who meets the criteria for AvPD but who has the fantasies of unlimited success? Think of "The Secret Life of Walter Mitty" by James Thurber. Or someone who meets criteria of NPD but who has great anxiety about possible failures (conscious or not) and engages in some significant avoidant behavior? Of how about being subclinical in both? What about someone who is incredibly gifted in one area of ability, and extremely proud of it, feeling superior to others and having vast dreams of where it could take them in life, while being below average in some other skill areas, uncomfortable, embarrassed that someone as great as them could perform so poorly anywhere, and tends to actively avoid the activities they are bad at? (leading to some really dysfunctional avoidant behaviors) Could someone in that situation present as nearly but not quite meeting the criteria for both disorders, thus understandably being overdiagnosed as actually having both?
Walter MItty makes one think of maladaptive daydreaming too. I don't know if he'd meet all the criteria for AvPD. But he seems to use his daydreaming to escape, and seems to engage in avoidant behavior by mentally checking out to escape his wife, while seeming to have limited social support.
Thanks to all the comments from others i understand how anyone can ever mix up an avoidant with a (vulnerable, covert) narcissist.
What really confuses me are narcissists and histrionics. Both strive for admiration, and i understand that narcs do it because they feel entitled and better than others, and histrionics want that because they long for attention.
But are histrionics as unempathetic and exploitative as narcissists?
Suedetussy i'm no authority, but i watched an overtly sexual and flirtatious attention seeker individual, possible histrionic, engage in relationships were money was flowing her way. She pretty much played damsel in distress but possible she felt entitled for financial gain for her favors. And it was not a job for her, it was a chosen lifestyle.
Hi Todd. My girl always tells me that she doesnt get excited about anything and is scared of the future? Would that be avpd or npd specific? Some other details she is a professional belly dancer but is terrified of situations that require interpersonal interaction. She acts cold and arrogant sometimes and can be very insensitive and hurtful however i think this may be her way of protecting herself and pushing me away.. as such from all the above i was thinking she might be a covert somatic narcissist but avpd seems to fit. Any thoughts? ..
Daniel Hackett he’s a professional psychiatrist. It would be unethical to diagnose someone who is not his patient.
Well that’s me explained.!👍
I am wondering if a covert narcissist could be mistaken as an avoidant?
How does Gender Dysphoria effect diagnoses of personality disorders?
I am closer to avoidant but, I don’t think I have a personality disorder. I just don’t like being with people and wasting time, when I could be working on personal projects and being productive.
I’m no psychologist but, I wonder whether substance abuse has anything to do with lack of substance abuse. I know that sounded strange but, here’s what I mean. Substance abuse is usually associated with alcohol and drug abuse and is self destructive. But, are things like refusing to be diagnosed and taking medication also considered to be as self destructive?
I ask because my mother is a covert/overt narcissist (dependent on the day and situation) who is diabetic and has memory loss and neuropathic feet. She has rotted out her teeth, as well. Now, I do know that there might be natural tooth decay and loss as we age. But, there was a time I took her to the store and she disappeared. I found her in the candy aisle. As I know her better than anyone, although I am finding out that I have to learn more about her as she ages and changes, I could see that, despite the fact that she knew her teeth were rotting, there was an absolute, zombie-like dependence upon obtaining the candy and my feeling is that it was paired with lack of basic oral care. As I don’t live with her, there was not much I could do.
Last year, she was diagnosed with diabetes and prescribed metformin but has not renewed her prescription, no matter how often I’ve inquired. Before you wonder how my comment even got here, it is because I realized that she was a self-destructive, family-destructive, narcissist who was triangulating my sister and I. While she has memory loss/dementia, she’s not always that innocent.
Getting back on topic, regarding self destruction, her replies to me coercing her to have her blood sugar tested and likely having metformin re-prescribed have been thwarted by it being a “new” conversation each time - backed up by the fact that she says she doesn’t want to take Mentax for her feet, as well as metformin, when the metformin addresses the most likely original source of her neuropathy and likely some of her brain fog and bad behavior. For her, having yet another conversation regarding her diabetes and also accepting me taking her to see a neurologist ends up being more of a conversation where I am to be manipulated into exasperation, than the situation being solved. Underneath it all, the solution for her is not to be diagnosed with dementia and/or diabetes. For her, the solution is to be the absolute wrecking ball of her life and her children’s lives, while being in denial that anything is wrong, despite the fact that even her plumber and her accountant have let me know she has issues, as well.
As I am low contact with her and won’t let her ruin my life, without her suffering severe consequences, I’ve let her know that, if she decides not to accept professional help, not take medication she needs, decides to work towards her own deterioration, that is her option. That it will be her crawling around on her knees once her feet have been amputated, while I and my sister continue our working lives as, we don’t have any other choices.
But, again, it feels as if “lack of substance abuse” for lack of a better term at the moment, can be just as destructive as substance abuse.
Could Avoidant personality could be comorbid with Bipolar Disorder?
if you have this do you also have an avoidant attachment type? they seem pretty similar if not the same.
Is CPTSD often komorbid with the avoidant personality disorder? I wonder for i never heard of it before but, feel, that that is just me.... I am diagnosed CPTSD, only one time a doctor thought it could be borderline, i understand that these two are very close, but different. I seem to get in touch with all kinds of cluster b personalities, they just love me and caused me so much pain.... I am very fearful of many things, very insecure and on the other hand searching and fighting. What can i do to get over this? IEMDR helped in one case, but still i tend to give in to relationships with highly manipulative people. Which appear very nice, charming, intelligent, etc. at first, but then they become so vicious, steal, lie.... and i always doubt myself. Even after physical abuse. I did so much work, longterm psychotherapy, meditation..... again i am hooked into a toxic relationship... When i am overwhelmed i tend to abuse of substances... Nearly 40 years now. If i wasn`t a mother i`d love to just die. Here in germany there is not that much of information available... Any recommendation?
When I spoke to my M.D. about narcissists harassing me it appeared that she didn’t like it.hmmmmmm. I think she was expecting what she misread as my sycophant personality; but instead, she spoke to me. She didn’t like it. I can only conclude that some Dr. (by Law) have to ask if you are safe, but don’t want to know if you are or not. Odd behaviors for a Physician.
Would two people with APD be inclined to form codependency?
wrong. i have had avoidant personality disorder since i can remember as well as body dysmorphia. BUT i fluctuate between feelings of inferiority and superiority constantly. anything is possible.
Hoe Bag , good point! Maybe a different disorder not yet studied (?). I also believe that symptoms could change, as well as disorders.
I’m in the same boat. Depending on the day, I can either feel like I’m being mistreated, or that I deserve it.
Both "personality" & "Personality disorders" (PD) are situational. He hinted this with drug (substance abuse) affected persons. So the person then assumes the personality & PD of the drug. Without the drug, or in other situations (work, home, leisure, etc) ... Another personality & another PD appears.
The clearest examples are the tobacco & cannabis users. When they use or not use, the massive changes happen.
Hi doctor may you please tell me if avoidant people also love bomb! Or is that associated with narcissists only? Would be greatly appreciated if you respond 😊😊
Do Avoidants give blank stares? And give the silent treatment out of fear? Or do only narcissist do this?
from my own personal experience as an avoidant I believe blank stares are often the result of performance anxiety or simply shutting down from overstimulation or desire to avoid confrontation. I'm not too sure an avoidant would necessarily resort to staring as much as looking away or focusing on some other object (like their hands for example). As I understand it, overt staring can also be a manipulative tactic used by psychopaths or sociopaths and possibly malignant narcissists to disarm others. I think that avoidants may give the silent treatment in a desperate attempt to control a relationship in a non confrontational way- yes.
No
How are these two disorders diagnosed clinically?
Can you make a video about recovery from cluster c disorders? Thanks.
Wouldn't be narcissistic disorder more similar to fearfull avoidants? Because the love bombing phase could be identified as the anxious part of feargull avoidants