Dudley Cook was WRONG! Straight vs Curved Axe Handles
Вставка
- Опубліковано 12 лют 2022
- After years of woodchopping the straight vs curved handles issue has bugged me, with very strong opinions either way. A lot of interesting theory on balance, however I think in most cases the curved handles has little to no effect on changing the balance point compared to straight as the controlling hands on impact are in a similar position relative to the axis as a curved handle anyway. I think it has more to do with adding control as the curve at the end acts like a crank and stops the axe twisting.
Well said Ben, Mate that was a scary glance at the end!
It happens, why I think getting chain mail is crucial. A lot of the top Aussie and Kiwi guys from the older generation are missing toes and it had nothing to do with inexperience or using the axe wrong. Its nice to have an insurance policy against it
I’ve read Cook through three times now, and I haven’t the faintest of what the axis of lateral pivot is suppose to demonstrate or, really, how to duplicate it. I suppose I could tie an axe to a string in my shop and give it a dangle and point. It’s all about the angle of the dangle. I’m still not sure what I think of this. All I know is I can’t tell the difference when I swing, but perhaps there’s some minute advantage I’m not privy to yet. Flats definitely help. I remember when Stephen said a friend of his was experimenting with flat sides. I thought hockey stick and it made sense to me. You proved to me that it’s ideal. Thanks
I have basically given up on all the theory based on physics etc because i think most of the models out there are flawed in the thinking as when you factor in the human body it becomes too complex. I just try to observe from practical experience as i think at the end of the days thats what matters.
I think that’s how hand tools were originally invented and evolved. You forge some bronze, fix it to a stick and use it. As you use it, you learn how to improve on it-and so on and so forth until you get a modern axe. Nowadays guys are thinking about the axe more than they’re using it, so naturally you’re going to get some goofy designs.
I’ve read Cook’s work. I think a straight stick has its place but the curved handle puts the wrist in a better position at the time of bit strike. And I agree a curve means less effort to resist twisting.
I think a curved handle allows you to do an underhand chop without dislocating your wrist. There's a significant difference in the way it feels, for me, when I do underhand with straight and underhand with a curved handle. The best option might be a straight handle with a nice end that curves away, but that would require a lot of wood to start with. Maybe the reason the whole handle is curved is to have that cocked palm swell without wasting lots of material?
Kind of how the Basque Handles are set up.
that's another reason I like them
Spot on
I have come to realize this past year how much I prefer certain palm swells and how much the end of the handle matters in my accuracy. I took too much material off one particular handle and I just couldn't get a firm grip and stop the axe from twisting side to side. I have yet to try a straight handle, but what you are saying sounds like it would make a lot of sense.
Ben you called Mr. Cook a "fanboy" haha! The Axe Book is a great read but it details Dudley's preferences and is a generalization into the axe world and a good one at that. There's no prefect axe or "one all". I'm happy you realize you have to take your own path and don't take it literally. His generalized information on axes is good but his "proper" axe head, weight and straight handle is his personally preference and what works for him. I don't think he was trying to be biased, that was just his way and how he felt in his own experience, not yours, mine or ours. You have much more experience with this, 99% of the time my axes are for splitting rounds, not bucking.
I need to start making my handles more flat, thanks for another great video
Yes Ben, I agree. I would add curved handles allow for some adjustment of grip which can reduce fatigue, a little weaker than straights (as a result of grain breakout on curves). But I would say that with longer axe bits they need to be flat profile handles to maintain accurate cuts.
I prefer curved handles as well, but I also really like straight handles. I’ve noticed subtle differences between using the two, but I always chalked that up to different axe heads. I might need to do an experiment using the same head on different handles.
I did notice I was slightly more accurate left handed with your Dayton. I’d love to see that experiment. That’s a good point, though. I think it’s more about how open or closed the bit is relative to the handle. I’m just not convinced it matters much, which is I think what Ben is mostly saying.
I love both. I like a good curved handle for splitting because it adds speed.
I am speaking from experience not literature or history. Straight handle works better for carpentry work, carving woodworking and with shorter handles 20" and below. For felling curved handle worked better for me. For splitting I have not decided yet.
I would agree with that, my experience is the same
I prefer straight because they are easier to make. I get the point about pressure on the wrist when bucking, but you can set the head up to ease that. I make my handles with an egg shape, so it's thicker at the back to sit in the palm and the tapers down towards the front so it fits nicely being the knuckles.
yeah more closed hang means your wrists dont have to roll over so much when bucking. In any case more important the handle fits your hand whether curved or straight, most handles are too round when new for my taste
Ive come to feel most of the time those tool patterns used most at the very end of the hand tool era (pre power tools) were by necessity the best form due to natural evolution and daily use by workers who needed the best tools.
On another note, why such short handles? Most historic pics and vids Ive seen have been very long and very thin handles used in the woods trades.
A thing to note is most old videos focus on the felling of very large trees, where a 36" handle is best. For felling and bucking trees under 12" diameter a shorter handle is better as a 36" handle only gets in the way when limbing and bucking smaller wood. 28" to 32" is the best size for a general use axe
In Chiloé (Southern Chile) there is a long tradition of the axe; the guys of the time were incredibly skilled, everything was built in wood, from small domestic "machines", furniture, utensils, to huge churches (most of them are historical monuments, it is worth taking a look). And the typical axe here was a huge one (4 1/2, 5 or even 6 pounds, wide edge, a kind of hybrid between European/Basque profiles (because of the tradition of German settlers in the area)), always with a straight and particularly long handle (never less of 70 cms, typical around 1 mt) With this type of axe, they felled trees, squared them, built beams, made details (obviously the finer details were done with some minor tools). But it is clear that all the paraphernalia around the axe is a modern question, which has more to do with a specific market niche (none of those Chilotes would be willing to pay what a luxury axe is worth today, it's just nonsense) Practical, systematic use is different from recreational use. They needed something that worked well, locally available ,without theorizing too much about it.
a 'luxury axe' costs between 1 and 3 days wages, In the past even cheap axes cost a lot more than that
Hey Ben, just sent the Firm from the "Axe Bat" a Message about what Cook says about lateral pivot and Speed wobble.
Also the studies about Baseball bats are very intesesting and sometimes contain useful Termini, concepts and Graphs.
Also its common knowledge (in the "International"..."World" Series"...lol these therms) that metal bats (alu, titan, composite) improve performance quite a lot. I read in the Stihl timbersports rule pdf and found no rules about Axe handles. Could some dedicated mans not then use a super light alu bat and improve his times "a lot"?
maybe, i dunno. ill check the rulebook
Hoi Ben, today I downloaded some FAO publications, in "introduction to ergonomics in forestry in developing countries" on page 69 there was an example of why an axe handle has this shape: An S-shape absorbs shocks.
My explanation (because there is none) is that because of the S-curve you have less fibres in your hand that go through the whole handle, seen from the side as in the picture. So this handle bounces more than a straight one.
In addition, the spring travel is greater due to the greater length resulting from the s shape - less abrupt shock.
Of course, this only applies if the s shape is sufficient.
(A minimal effect on the suspension, negligible. Rather a stronger thinner stem than a thicker more curved one).
Reissinger says that, according to Mercer, the double-curved handle was first introduced in 1856 for the sole purpose of enabling the hand to assume a more fatigue-free position. (He writes that the front counter-curvature only makes the second curvature possible, so it has nothing to do with the belly) Page 28, from the third paragraph; but look for yourself, he writes it out much better than I do here. "The care of the axe" by IFFA (I don't have it), says that the double-wound handle increases the springiness.
Mercer 1929 says the s-shaped handle does not improve the suspension properties, but fao 1992 (reference list at the bottom, but unfortunately no inline citation) says it does.
My handle should have a good knob and a good bend so that I don't have to bend my wrist too much. (The bend also helps it to slide out of my hand less) It should also be thin. (For lightness, a more forward centre of gravity and damping).
The müller ash handle is a good choice for me because it is locally available.
(The thickness of the handle and the position of the cutting edge have the greatest influence on the transmission of vibrations anyway!)
I was watching SISU and saw his axe so I Wanted that answered. Thanks.
Sorry for the question completely unrelated to the video, but what do you think are some good axe patterns or overall shapes for felling extremely hard tropical woods?
Dayton with a thicker grind, tasmanian pattern
Another great video with lots of useful comments. Liking that tool box by the way.
Cheers! my brother made it, has a bottle opener on the outside attached to it
thoughts on the scandinavian peasant axes which have a rather profound curve
Any picture example?
@@benscottwoodchopper "Norwegian peasant axe from Gudbrand Valley" i.imgur.com/NbJ5KsB.jpg
i.imgur.com/sy0LvFq.png
digitaltmuseum.no/search/?aq=descname%3A%22Bonde%C3%B8ks%22
do you have somewhere i can send a donation?
Greek statue hair, anyone else see it?
Agreed I don't think it makes a hell of alot of difference. I also don't really like a overly curved handle like a french curve, just slightly less accurate over all but that could just be purely personal preference. Get the handle that you like the most.
I've only used curved handles on axes. I recently bought a maul with a straight handle. I've only used it once, but cannot say I notice a difference.
Yeah for splitting there is zero difference. Only makes a difference when felling and to a lesser degree bucking
Another very interesting video Ben, thanks!
mostly irrelevant but I like overanalysing sometimes
@@benscottwoodchopper All good stuff, definitely keep it up!
Not that I'm anyone of note, but to me, this has always seemed like an issue of context. In particular, the context of utility vs. profession.
I'm not a logger or ranger, but I've swung plenty of axes, cleared plenty of brush, and split plenty of wood. I've used both curved and straight handles in equal measure, and I've never noticed the difference.
But, I don't swing them for a living, so I would believe a professional's word over my own experience when it comes to the long-term benefits of one handle over another.
Yeah its only a very very minor thing that you wont notice in most cases you can adapt to anyway
I wouldn’t chop wood 🪵 while standing on it 😓.
I bet those pants were a little browner after that glancing blow :-)
maybe just a little! it happens and that's why I recommend getting chain mail foot protection before attempting standing on logs. Some of the best guys in the world have lost toes from glances like that. Just shows how much control a flat curved handle gives though to resist twisting like that
Get some decent race handles mate
I have tuatahi racing handles but i dont put them on working axes, far too expensive