Dr. Flowers after watching your videos I ordered a copy of your book the Potter's Promise. I'm about halfway through and it's been a great read. I've never been a Calvinist but I'm still finding the book very interesting. Thanks for your ministry brother.
I read Potter's Promise by Dr. Flowers, and also "The Potter's Freedom" by Dr. White. I will say with all honesty that Dr. Flower's book is totally honest with the Scriptures in context; and so, as a consequence, his wisdom and logic in presenting his case is excellent. Dr. White is quoting isolated texts and then supplies his own doctrinal bias, which is upsetting.
I'll say that everytime I hear "people are so depraved that they are uncapable of of even wanting or understanding the gospel and Jesus, unless God makes a miracle, people will never repent" I hear also "The person is so lazy that she's uncapable of wanting or even understanding that she can walk, unless God makes a miracle, she'll never walk. Because how deep the person's laziness is" See the flaw? Once you say that the person is uncapable, you can't say is laziness that's keeping her from walking nor depravity that's keeping her from repentance
John McCarthur has two audiences..most of the year he is speaking on the radio to average uninformed non-Calvinist people..but during founder's week at the church, the ultra wealthy are there & he preaches an ultra-Calvinist very narrow view only to them.
Charles Spurgeon believed that some were elect & predestined to be saved, but he also believed that some of the non-elect could be saved, too..evidently, John McCarthur has a similiar on-the-fence going-two-ways-at-one-time contradictory point of view.. trying to please everyone.
Yes. I’m praying for Dr. MacArthur! I truly do care for that man. That the Lord would change his heart and open his mind, and that he would openly share the truth. And I think the Lord can very much use him to bring people out of this deception of Calvinism! Wouldn’t that be awesome, saints!!? Let’s continue to pray for him with love, friends!
Incredibly contravening statements. Yet, there remains a brotherhood in arms when it comes to Calvinists...they simply close ranks and dismiss and ostracize the dissenting voices, even though the discrepancy is glaring. Just what part of our Christian faith permits us to behave in such ways?
Maybe MacArthur started listening to Leighton Flowers! 😂 Keep up the great work, Dr. Flowers, and thank you for your ministry. I believe God led me to your videos at just the right time and I am so thankful every single day.
Nope. Many Calvinists really do not believe in Calvinists in theirs hearts because the sane part of them recognizes Calvinism as trash. They have learned to parrot the lies they learned, but often the truth leaks out when they forget to parrot those lies.
MacArthur is at such an age that it is very unlikely he would change his stance on soteriology in this regard. Of course it is possible, and I hope he changes from tulip falsehoods, but nonetheless may God open his eyes
John MacArthur has no problem lying or misleading others for the purpose of an agenda. This was proven during the height of covid. The point isn't that the CDC reports were right or wrong. The point is that MacArthur flat out lied about what they said. He twisted the CDC report and its findings into what he wanted others to believe. Like I said.... The CDC reports themselves were possibly fudged on the numbers, percentages, causes of death etc. But that's neither here nor there. MacArthur lied and twisted what they said, (whether true or not), and he knew it, and took to Twitter with it. It was either that or he has a serious issue with reading comprehension. Maybe that's what's wrong with his interpretation of scripture?
After years of listening to brainwashing sermons from MacArthur, I realized after being confronted with the inconsistency of Calvinism that I had actually given my critical and discerning part of my mind over to this false teacher. Now, I thrust everything I hear, read, see and feel under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and trusted believers to either affirm or examine what we share regarding the Word and how we interpret the verses. Though, I'm sure, well meaning, Macarthur is a sinner and prone to the flesh and ego strokes, and he's getting plenty of those from his reformed pals who keep heaping praise and adoration for his ministry as though EVERYTHING he says is gospel truth. God save us from the love of men.
Red tie Macarthur is nailing it. The pastor from the Calvinist church I just left wasn't too happy with my answer when he asked, how can you listen to all of these different teachings and get one theological knowledge. I said, eat the meat and spit out the bones. He just scoffed at it during small group, though a pretty biblical and short paraphrase, test the spirits and hold fast to what is true and good, eat the meat and spit out the bones.
@@andrab1287 yes. My family and I only went there for about a year. I grew a lot and learned a ton through opposition. It forced me to get deeper into the Word as to appropriately have an answer for why I reject Calvinism even when shown and explained their prooftexts. The youth program teaching consisted of games mixed with watching Piper sermons on UA-cam. My oldest daughter has enough discernment to see the red flags and untruths though. It was getting harder on my wife to not be fed and I worried about my youngest two, so we left. A few of the other local churches, though their statement of faith was spot on, the pastor would slip some calvinistic language in at times. We did finally find a wonder church locally that is rock solid theologically. We've only gone two Sundays and a Wednesday, but I've honestly never heard teaching as simple and deep at the same time. The teaching pastors main focus is, the letters in the order they were received, and to who they were written. If the letter was to a mixed crowd, then he pinpoints where Paul makes the switches to who he's addressing. It's the way I teach, a foundation of simple truths that you start with will help understand the rest. Paul may speak about non-believers but he only ever wrote to Christians. He never used the term "elect" unless he was writing to Jews, like the Bible teaches, the elect were only and always the nation of Israel. If Paul wrote to a mixed crowd, he made sure he included specifically the Gentiles that he was speaking to.
@@berean77 So, Mr. Poopy Pants, are you really concerned about a "mocking tone" when we are talking about an evil lying heretic teaching a false gospel that is leading people to Hell? I think your concern is vastly misplaced and border line insane. Was Elijah wrong when he mocked the prophets of Baal and asked if their god was on the toilet? Was Jesus wrong when he mocked the Pharisees who asked him a trick question about paying taxes by asking them why they were carrying a a graven image of Caesar in their pocket? Grow up Karen..
Calvinists have two options: 1) preach contrary to what their stated beliefs are (and be utterly inconsistent/misleading) 2) preach faithfully to what your system teaches (and be accused of being a hyper Calvinist)
Well put. I think most calvinists must be inconsistent or then even in calvinistic camps other calvinists would accuse them of taking man's responsibility away but that is exactly what this gnostic determinism does: man has no libertarian free will so... God must decree all things.
AMEN Brother! I cannot be a calvinist because I will not blame our perfect God for my imperfect choices. He provides salvation out of love for us. We reject His provision out of love for self. So many times when I see someone who denies the deity of Jesus and His work on the cross, it's because they're reluctant to give up their sin. When they are broken and realize their sin leads to their ruin, or after reading the Word repeatedly they realize how much God really loves us, and what the cross really means, they break and submit to Jesus!
Well you deny self then - he shows us how to pray to The Father - we admit our will is fractured and fallen and we need help - and the spirit changes us into a new creation so yeah a new will based on denying the old one and old ways of thinking - surely we have a will but it’s lead us astray and we own that and his power is made perfect through our weakness not out good use of free will .
This is a very powerful method to spotlight glaring contradictions in Calvinism - by showing videos of famous Calvinists blatantly contradicting themselves. May God bless this ministry abundantly!
Macarthur did well to teach me that to be "Double tonged" disqualifies a person from the position of teacher. Funny isn't it? Jesus said "by your words you will be condemned" Houston we have a problem!
It took me a second to get it, but “Oh! Right! Why would God cut someone off for unbelief who’s been cut off from birth, or even before they were born.”
What frustrates me with calvinists is this: when they talk about God's calvinisti sovereignty and their misunderstanding of salvation they are going by tulip, but when they talk about responsibility of man to believe in Christ Jesus for eternal life and remission of sins then they contradict their own calvinistic system. Why? They should just say, to be consistent, this: hope you have been chosen of God to be saved in Christ Jesus from hellfire and in the meanwhile do whatever you wanna do since God has decreed all of your good and sinful actions.
Well you deny self then - he shows us how to pray to The Father - we admit our will is fractured and fallen and we need help - and the spirit changes us into a new creation so yeah a new will based on denying the old one and old ways of thinking - surely we have a will but it’s lead us astray and we own that and his power is made perfect through our weakness not out good use of free will .
Leighton, thank you for all your input. I had not run into too many 5-point Calvinists, but last year when I was teaching apologetics, I ran into one smack-on when it came to choice. He said we have no choice. I agree that Christ died for the entire world, including anybody and everybody, even if they rejected Christ. As you know, Jesus said, if you lift Me up, I will draw all men to Myself, and He did at the cross. God is the initiator, and we are but responders by faith, which is not a work but a response to God‘s provision through Christ. I saw this quote, and I thought it was pretty reasonable. “I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. -Galileo. I hope to help contribute to your ministry. Last point, I am so blessed to see your humility and your love for our Brothers in Christ; no matter what we agree or disagree with, it comes across clearly. May this encourage you. In His love and grace, Ken
Wow he seems to try avoiding Arminianism and walked straight into provisionism as you persistently articulate in the short time I've seen listening to you Dr Flowers, by the way thank you for not only clarifying for me why I became uncomfortable with armianism and gravitas towards calvinism. This also make sense how some brilliant Armenians will point out the contradictions between Calvin the theologian (Christian Institutes)and the exegit and expositor(Commentries).Not armianism but provisionism adresses the supposed tension. Thank you God for you sir, may God continue to bless you.
This is one of my favourite videos of your recent output Dr Flowers. Thank you for such a clear, loving description of why this matters. God bless you and your ministry. D
The Calvinist must feel so sorry and embarrassed for the apostle Paul and his naïveté, who foolishly thought that he could save people. First Corinthians 9.22. “To the weak became I as weak that I might gain the weak. I am made all things to all men that I might, by all means, save some.”
I've been wondering if any Calvinist has ever come to the conclusion of Calvinism just from reading scripture alone? If they said yes, I'd have a hard time believing it. Every Calvinist that I've talked to has a Macarthur study bible, Grudem systematic theology book, and or an ESV translation, and has also predominantly listened to Sproul, Lawson, Macarthur, or Piper for their learning. I personally have a Grudem systematic theology book, ESV bible, have listened to tons of wonderful Macarthur sermons, and some pretty bad ones. I didn't even know Driscoll was one until recently, same with one of my favorites, Alistair Begg, and Charles Spurgeon. I've listened to Louie Giglio as much as I have Greg Laurie and have never been lead to Calvinism. Simple straight reading of scripture, I've not been led to Calvinism. I've not read anything into scripture. Just do my best to understand the context, the audience, the timing, and see that it doesn't contradict elsewhere. To me, I guess I've always been a Provisionist Christian. Most of the Christians I talk with in person are too, though like me, until recently, don't actually use that label. I'm a Christian that was told I was and had to be an Arminian by Calvinists. Though I see similarities, I don't fit that mold. It seems they are veiled towards Calvinism, but by who, God, Satan, or self? My wife told me this thought that made a lot of sense. She said it's like a form of pareidolia. Like one of those paintings that you can't see, until you see, then it's hard to unsee. Someone is told to see something in scripture, "shown" Calvinism, then even when you show them that it was inserted and not really there, it sure is hard for them to unsee.
Calvinists don't believe calvinism.... Practically every calvinist preacher I've listened to, read their books, etc has contradiced calvinism regularly. Especially on the subject of determinism.
@@djohnson3093 well, I definitely cannot say you're wrong. I just listened to a Voddie Bacham sermon recently, same thing. "I believe God sovereignly made all things come to pass" next sentence, "men are responsible for their own sin"...
Good points. I wish I knew more about Calvin himself and his background to understand how he came to believing what he taught. Sure, I can see how certain passages taken by themselves could lead a person to Calvinism, but not when placed into and against the broader context of the entire narrative of scripture, because there is so much more that you would have to ignore or minimalize.
@@vn2562 I agree completely, historically. Denied the Gospel initially, Manichaean for almost 10 years while defending gnostic determinism. Became Christian, the only early church father that didn't know Greek, believed in free will, fought with Pelagian, didn't believe in free will anymore, then learned Greek.
Aside from the lessons stemming from Calvinistic teachings, I still really like macarthur. I still think he's brilliant. He's written alot of good books that have nothing to do with Calvinism that I've learned a lot from in my growing in Christ. Really love this critique of him as well. I've learned so much from your critiques of Calvinism. So good.
I find it problematic how MacArthur has consistently been covering up horrendous abuse cases in his church, even disciplining and excommunicating a woman who divorced her husband who was found guilty of sexually abusing their children.
His duplicitous treatment of Chuck Smith was grotesque as well. They had interacted at various points in their careers in positive ways. After Chuck announced he had cancer JM tried teeing off on Chuck during his anti-pentecostal, Strange Fire conference like Chuck was a charismatic nut job. I always found the Calvinist EVERYTHING IS S WORK AND CANT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION a buzzard mix with REAL BELIEVERS DON’T smoke, dance, drink, wear suits, and etc, to be a bizarre, contradictory mix. He always came off as a modern day pharisee to me. To many concerning issues for me to sit and listen to him as a pastor.
its okay if you can distinguish and as @officialDavidRees says above, able to eat the meat and spit out the bone.... many people don't know to spit out the bone and instead choke on it
Hello. I'm afraid I can't share your liking of Macarthur. I have heard him speak arrogantly and from a viewpoint that disregards Scripture but serves his own philosophical ideas. Plus, with calvinism, he teaches a different gospel that is no gospel at all.
That's that "Without lies, Islam dies." It's remarkable how much Islam and Calvinism have in common when it comes to presestination. Some high-profile gorilla of Muhammad said that even if he were with one foot in their heaven he'd be afraid Allah would go like: "Hey, dude, jk; get outta here!" Even Allah calls himself "the greatest of all deceivers". Coincidence? I think not. Given that Muhammad used Gnostic sources, and was a total illiterate (mixing Christianity with Mosaism), I am not surprised.
Even as JM is reading his own notes, it's like he's having an "illumination" moment. JM is an intelligent man, so I know he has to comprehend the duplicity of his theology.
You're right Leighton. What MacArthur said in the second clip cannot even apply to either the "elect" or the "reprobate", according to their definitions of those terms.
Dr. flowers, when will your book be available here in Philippines, im an avid watcher of your videos and I learned a lot (Glory be to the Lord) not just about the issue of calvinism, but in so many terms, especially as a Christian, i learn a lot from your journey and testimonies. bottom; i wanna read ur book. please i hope you notice this. Godbless you, ur family, and your ministry dr. flowers.
I caught that too. I noticed when they hear Scripture say it like it is, they immediately rush to qualify Scripture with Calvinism. It’s really really sad to see men do this. I know because I was once one if them.
Yes, exactly! "Now, when the Bible says 'all' in this verse, it clearly doesn't mean ALL. It obviously means "all of the elect", because determinism!"...
@Pablo Nope, not at all. I'm saying that Calvinism warps and obscures who God is, and one of the many ways that's done is by redefining biblical words.
@@Drspeiser Thank you for responding. Are you saying 'all' men can see ? What verse do you have that says all men can see ? If one can see - what 'decision to trust in Christ' is necessary? When God the Father revealed to Peter who Jesus was - did Peter then need to make a decision to believe it ? If he did then God's wasn't a very good communicator :) And if one can't see - why would they believe ?? Please explain why someone would believe if they can't see ? Where's the freedom in that? "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed."
@@Pablo-p7y When the Bible says God desires ALL people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth, the only reason to say "all" doesn't mean "all" is some external extra-biblical grid you've put in place that says God doesn't want all to be saved. When it says in 1 John 2:2 "and not for ours only, but for the whole world" there is absolutely no reason to think that it means anything other than "the whole world".
Leighton I do love how you articulate the clear contradictions within their view of electron ie. "Irresistible, unconditionally" which has never harmonized to me in reading the Scriptures since the first time i was introduced to this view... sadly it isn't always brought up in a pastors sermons immediately. So thank you for once again showing the clarity side by side!!! And being a voice in the wilderness i know it isn't easy to stand up against calvinism.... Blessings to you🌻
Unfortunately so. I was in a reformed church for 2 years and I used to listen to calvinist pastors a whole lot. They always talk about Augustine, Calvin, Spurgeon etc. How about we'd not follow J.C as in John Calvin but THE J. C that is Jesus Christ, our Lord and God?
Couldn’t have said it any better. It appears to be an arrogance there as well. I don’t know if it’s out an offense to defend the idol, or blinded by ignorance of the proper interpretation of scripture, pride, or all of the above. Either way it’s definitively an idol.
Well you deny self then - he shows us how to pray to The Father - we admit our will is fractured and fallen and we need help - and the spirit changes us into a new creation so yeah a new will based on denying the old one and old ways of thinking - surely we have a will but it’s lead us astray and we own that and his power is made perfect through our weakness not out good use of free will .
Can anyone provide the link to or date of these two MacArthur sermons? They really should have been provided as a basic footnote. It would be helpful to be able to hear them in the full context, not just a 40 second clip out of a 50 minute sermon. Thanks.
It wasn’t 40 seconds. The clip was over seven minutes long. Plenty of content to establish a clear and accurate perception of his contradicting the hours and hours of his teaching otherwise.
@@krissyyoung9264 The second clip of John MacArthur was less than 40 seconds long. Check it out for yourself. It is normal practice to cite sources, there is no good reason not to.
Would you please post a link to both sermons? I'd like to see the full context of what he is saying to make a more accurate judgement of his alleged contradiction. Thank you.
Most of my friends who are pastors (those who went to reformed seminaries and who serve in reformed denominations) minister and think non-Calvinistically almost 100% of the time, but teach Calvinism when they come to a text which they've been trained to interpret within a Calvinistic framework.
Classic example of McArthur sawing off the branch he's standing on. I am raised with Calvinistic doctrine, but by studying the critique from these respectable critics as Flowers and Winger I see more and more how Calvinism collapses like a house of cards when it comes to consistency. I still live with my parents, and they are Calvinists, so I'm gonna study as hard as possible so I can have a shot at trying to get them to think logicly. Thank you for this exelent example dr. Flowers!
The only doctrinal disagreement I’ve had with MacArthur (who is probably my favorite preacher) is Calvinism. I’m glad to see I’m in good company with MacArthur himself in disagreeing.
Lordship salvation is another one and his extreme view of charismatics, that, if I remember correctly, most of them are wrong. Extreme charismatics are messed upbut there are thinking, wise charismatics who do not think miracles are for every day, all should speak in tongues, that God wants all to be healed from every disease on this side of eternity etc. MacArthur is right on Israel and eschatology though, for that I thank God :)
@@Pablo-p7y can you tell me where the Bible states that without using philosophy? As soon as you start telling me what the Bible means when it says something you have stepped into Philosophy and I have a right to disagree with that.
@@Papasquatch73 "We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time." Rom 8:22 Why is it groaning ? When did it start groaning ? "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" Rom 5:12 How many days of creation ? If they are not days - what are they ? God says "there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God." Free willists say stuff it in your ear God - we declare libertarian free will - and we can seek if we want to!!! But God says: “I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.”
Really though this is how a lot of Calvinist preachers will preach. "Believe like a Calvinist, preach like an Arminian. After someone converts as a result of a message like this, then they'll be hit with the "doctrines of grace".
Which invokes one of Jesus' rebukes to the scribes and Pharisees: "you travel land and sea to win one proselyte and when he is won you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are."
One thing that struck me is MacArthur was using “ you “ statements to his congregation. So he’s seeming to be speaking to Calvinists. So he also negates another tulip tenant if inability to resist grace. He says there’s a time when you can no longer believe then , a Calvinist CAN RESIST God’s grace which by is the whole point of this discussion. Salvation is offers to all and it is up to each individual to become a whosever and accept that free grace gift. Therefore, a Calvinist will also run out of time eventually to get saved. He totally disproved the core of Calvinism by this very contradiction.
I have seen both Calvinism and the pre-trib rapture flourish in my lifetime. Having said that, in my studies and experience, I believe they are both man-made lies. Calvinism, and many Calvinists, have just become boorish to me. Anybody who has seen humanity, with the true love of God in their heart, knows of God's indescribable love for us and plan of salvation. The fact that God, Himself, would humble Himself to point of death, for us, is mind-boggling. The thought of a god, who could save everyone, yet chooses not to do so, is not real. Sure, we must wrestle with some scriptures, but that wrestling need not end in anybody thinking that God made us to be mere puppets with no chance of hearing and receiving His free gift. Receiving a free gift is not a work and all the glory goes to the Savior. Wake up.
Pre-trib Rapture has a 0% batting average since it was made up in the 1800's. Reminds me of the cults on the college quad - they always knew exactly when something was going to happen, until it didn't.
I struggle to understand why there are so many MacArthur fan boys when he is so wrong about his insistence on Calvinism, which turns God into a sick monster. What else has he gotten completely wrong? Why should we believe that is the only thing?
Could the people follow someone and not become like them? Look at the brothers and sisters who follow MacArthur. It is not creating monsters. They are God-honoring people.
JM has plenty of material over the years giving the exact same contradictory teachings, so no one can claim he is getting old and hast lost his fastball.
He misquoted 1 Corinthians. It never says that natural man can't understand things of God. It say he can't understand things of the Spirit. Very important distinction.
Well Holy Spirit is God(see Acts 5 and Romans 8 for one), 3rd person of trinity. Now 1 Cor. 2 is about theological, biblical matters of faith. A born again christian can help an unbeliever to understand the things of God. No unsaved man can understand the Bible on his or her own without aid from Holy Spirit. (Btw. I am no calvinist)
@@peterfox7663 It's not without a difference. Understanding the concept of God, creation, authority, heaven, life etc is far different than the discernment and leading of the Holy Spirit.
I understand Calvinism causing you to doubt the goodness of God. Went through that myself. But why would Lordship salvation? My understanding of that is that you fully submit to God as Lord of your life and deny yourself and the desires of the flesh. I think that reflects the goodness of God. It's sanctification that conforms us to the image of Jesus.
@@ddr5138 right, we don't because we still have to deal with our sin nature even after we are saved. But the point is that full submission to Jesus should be the goal, however badly we mess it up. Would you agree?
It seems that every Calvinist I have had a conversation with ends up contradicting themselves. My favorite is when someone was trying to defend their stance on predestination and then she ended by saying, "Oh, how I wish everyone would see this wonderful truth." Mind boggling!
[Rom 9:3 KJV] 3 "For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:" You must think this verse is mind boggling as well. Why in the world would Paul wish for something he knew was an impossibility? Why does anyone wish for anything they know is an impossibility? The heart wants what it wants. There is nothing mind boggling nor contradictory in wishing for something one knows is an impossibility. It's simply a desire that can never be fulfilled. It's quite a common occurrence for the human race given our weaknesses.
Oh my gosh I am so glad you did this!! I just listened to that sermon a few days so and was thinking this EXACT thing!!!! Total contradiction on his part!
Probably the same way they've answered in the past. Macarthur would say, "It's not a contradiction, it fits, I don't know how, but it does, I'm not God." White would say, "Leighton is misrepresenting Calvinists again, he just doesn't know Calvinism."
It doesn’t say the sinner is unable, it says the mind set on the flesh is unable. That just means the mind cannot simultaneously be set on the flesh and the things of God… always making something plain into some kind of hidden truth….
Anybody know what McArthur message this was from? My Calvinist friend that I shared the information with and questioned him about it. He wants to listen to the entire message he says in context !
Leighton, could you please provide the link to the MacArthur sermon in the second clip where you say that he is actually teaching provisionism? I just want to be a good Berean & listen to the full sermon to get the full context to make sure that what you are saying is true. It's very hard to be sure of that from such a short clip. Thank You.
Mmhm, that is it. They wanna keep man responsible for sin and to personally believe but their own theological system has taken it away so they are inconsistent and hence have cognitive dissonance on simple logic in God's absolute sovereignty and man's free will responsibility. It would be like if I made a computer program and everything were determined by me. Then I tell them in the game that the bots are responsible for their own actions and they should and they can choose to do what I want, well... if I habe determined some bots to not choose what I want then logically they have no choice but to resist my will.
It blows my mind how calvinist can twist scripture. The simplest scripture like the tree of good and evil in the garden shows man had a choice to obey God or do what we choose to do
Catholics place their faith in their church, their works, their “saints” etc. , not on Christ alone, calvinists place their faith on regeneration and according to what I’ve learnt from them, their works are the evidence of their faith, seems a little like works salvation to me, kinda catholic
@shawnmason that's the reality that Scripture describes even if you don't understand it.....And it is the reality of all those people in tribes that NEVER heard the gospel and died in unbelief. They are responsible even though they never heard the gospel.
@@christianmama2441 that’s the reality of a Calvinistic interpretation of scripture, not the reality of scripture, not a single passage in scripture says that a person can’t want to believe when the gospel is presented clearly.
I think McArthur must've hit his head before he preached in that last clip! He didn't start out as a Calvinist but ended up going that direction. Leighton has a full sermon on his channel where McArthur preaches much like he does in the 2nd clip. It's amazing! Everyone needs to hear it. I wonder if McArthur got a lot of questions after that message. The strange thing is that many Calvinists will preach like this from time to time & then when asked a question about their doctrine, will revert back to their TULIP theology & contradict what they previously had preached. The funny thing is, I would like to see Leighton play this clip for McArthur & ask him to respond to it. I would suspect he wouldn't even admit that he was contradicting himself! Then again, he may just fall silent! At any rate, I'd love to see a response from him! Good job, Dr. Flowers! Would like to see more like this!
I had a friend send me one of your videos (the 5 points that led me out of calvinism) and I must say, I thought it was excellent. Very nice job with your approach and not being divisive with the brethren!! Let me give you a gentle challenge. I just had to stop at the 10 minute mark to make a respectful comment. You are speaking for John MacArthur in this video. Remember, he was preaching a sermon and not defending or teaching his views on Calvinism. I am currently studying both sides of this argument and that is why I am listening to this video now. Learning sooo much. I think your comments are probably more appropriate for a hyper-calvinist, perhaps. There is no one who takes "biblical Calvinism" seriously that would say we do not have to evangelize. They would say we Must evangelize, because there are sheep that still have not come into the fold yet. Only God Himself knows who they are, and we may be the only Bible they ever hear. Just because someone is not saved today, it does not mean they will not be saved five years from now. In my opinion, he is preaching to those who sit in churches all over our country who are not Yet born again. I am not sure how we would ever know, when talking to an unbeliever, if they will ever be saved. Through the lens of the Calvinist, if they are among the elect. Through the lens of an Arminian, if they will ever freely choose Him. In your other video that I liked so much you mentioned that most Calvinists say that all Arminians say and assume that "God looks through the tunnel of time and... Well, this seems like you are slipping a little into that same frame of mind on your side of the arguement. Most Calvinists would defend John as I have above and Not just say he mis-spoke. I would say he spoke truth, very clearly, and we need to remember that we take the gospel of Jesus Christ to all the lost world. Only God alone knows who will ultimately respond to His voice and exactly When they will do so. Let me know your thoughts, by all means! Once again, I appreciate and respect you! Eric
This was a contradiction. A Calvinist cannot honestly claim that God will allow someone to repent at one point only to block them later on. They claim that each persons decisions were determined long ago so this whole message is inconsistent with Determinism. If a person is 'elect' they cannot refuse His call in the first place so that is another inconsistency with Calvinism.
Why would some people reject the gospel and others do not? Can you provide an answer of why someone who choose not to accept the gospel when they can someone able to accept it?
Dr. Flowers, I just want to say I appreciate the work you do here on your channel. Please help me understand provisionism a little better. Is provisionism the belief that we are all sinners and if we repent and out our faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior we will be saved, and that a true believer can’t lose their salvation? Thank you for your time.
Very well done. I was a Calvinist for a short time and it was not until I heard Frank Turek give the best explanation of Predestination vs Free will. and if I remember correctly, I believe Turek learned this from you Dr. Flowers! at times when I was a Calvinist, some things still didn't add up with the theology but after going through the scriptures, heard what Turek said about it and discovered Dr. Flowers, it makes perfect that Calvinism is a theology with inconsistencies and even obvious contradictions....now I won't go around and say that Calvinism is a false doctrine because i truly it is not since Calvinists do have a correct view on salvation (by God's grace through Faith alone in Christ Alone) but I do believe that Calvinism, in the regard that God has already predetermined who's going to Heaven and Hell is unintentionally taken out of context
I'm curious about the starting position of each clip. In the first JMac clip, was JMac starting with the presupposition of his Total Depravity doctrine when citing his proof texts? Whereas in the 2nd clip, he wasn't attempting to address Total Depravity but some other topic? It's been my experience with Calvinists that they pick and choose when to apply they're doctrine. Hence it can be confusing when hearing contradictory sermons. Often my experience.
Blessed is the man that *endureth temptation* for *when he is tried* he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to *them that love him* {James 1:12}
MacArthur is a legalist. He rightly opposes sin and is against these woke movements and anti-biblical nonsense of our era, but lordship salvation is not the Gospel of Christ and it leads to legalism for those who are truly saved in Christ Jesus by grace alone and faith alone
Well, yeah, a kind of Provisionism, but the later clip shows a cuckoo, cognitive dissonance. On the one hand, John Mac pleads with the sinner to believe. On the other hand, in the same video, he explains the sinner's total inability without effectual grace to believe. I will not preach *this* inconsistent message.
Blatant contradictions. Thank you for showing this. I was recently labelled as having a poor understanding of scripture for pointing out things like this about Calvinism
Dr. Flowers after watching your videos I ordered a copy of your book the Potter's Promise. I'm about halfway through and it's been a great read. I've never been a Calvinist but I'm still finding the book very interesting. Thanks for your ministry brother.
I read Potter's Promise by Dr. Flowers, and also "The Potter's Freedom" by Dr. White. I will say with all honesty that Dr. Flower's book is totally honest with the Scriptures in context; and so, as a consequence, his wisdom and logic in presenting his case is excellent. Dr. White is quoting isolated texts and then supplies his own doctrinal bias, which is upsetting.
Great book
I'll say that everytime I hear "people are so depraved that they are uncapable of of even wanting or understanding the gospel and Jesus, unless God makes a miracle, people will never repent" I hear also
"The person is so lazy that she's uncapable of wanting or even understanding that she can walk, unless God makes a miracle, she'll never walk. Because how deep the person's laziness is"
See the flaw? Once you say that the person is uncapable, you can't say is laziness that's keeping her from walking nor depravity that's keeping her from repentance
John McCarthur has two audiences..most of the year he is speaking on the radio
to average uninformed non-Calvinist people..but during founder's week at the church, the ultra wealthy are there & he preaches an ultra-Calvinist very narrow view only to them.
Charles Spurgeon believed that some were elect & predestined to be saved, but he also believed that some of the non-elect could be saved, too..evidently, John McCarthur has a similiar on-the-fence
going-two-ways-at-one-time
contradictory point of view..
trying to please everyone.
He truly did contradict Calvinism. The reason he did is because scripture contracted it on this point!
Yes. I’m praying for Dr. MacArthur! I truly do care for that man. That the Lord would change his heart and open his mind, and that he would openly share the truth. And I think the Lord can very much use him to bring people out of this deception of Calvinism! Wouldn’t that be awesome, saints!!? Let’s continue to pray for him with love, friends!
They flip flop like crazy
They use Calvinism to cork the flow.
Scripture contradicts Calvinism on all 5 points of tulip.
Incredibly contravening statements. Yet, there remains a brotherhood in arms when it comes to Calvinists...they simply close ranks and dismiss and ostracize the dissenting voices, even though the discrepancy is glaring. Just what part of our Christian faith permits us to behave in such ways?
I truly appreciate the charitable manner in which you approach correcting Calvinistic doctrine. Calm, cool and collected. Keep up the excellent work!
It's refreshing, isn't it? I came to his channel looking for answers to my questions and stayed because he speaks with love and gentleness.
@@heathereads9594agree!!! Yesss!!!
Is this what they call a straw man argument?
Maybe MacArthur started listening to Leighton Flowers! 😂 Keep up the great work, Dr. Flowers, and thank you for your ministry. I believe God led me to your videos at just the right time and I am so thankful every single day.
Nope. Many Calvinists really do not believe in Calvinists in theirs hearts because the sane part of them recognizes Calvinism as trash. They have learned to parrot the lies they learned, but often the truth leaks out when they forget to parrot those lies.
MacArthur is at such an age that it is very unlikely he would change his stance on soteriology in this regard. Of course it is possible, and I hope he changes from tulip falsehoods, but nonetheless may God open his eyes
John MacArthur has no problem lying or misleading others for the purpose of an agenda.
This was proven during the height of covid.
The point isn't that the CDC reports were right or wrong.
The point is that MacArthur flat out lied about what they said.
He twisted the CDC report and its findings into what he wanted others to believe.
Like I said.... The CDC reports themselves were possibly fudged on the numbers, percentages, causes of death etc. But that's neither here nor there.
MacArthur lied and twisted what they said, (whether true or not), and he knew it, and took to Twitter with it.
It was either that or he has a serious issue with reading comprehension. Maybe that's what's wrong with his interpretation of scripture?
After years of listening to brainwashing sermons from MacArthur, I realized after being confronted with the inconsistency of Calvinism that I had actually given my critical and discerning part of my mind over to this false teacher. Now, I thrust everything I hear, read, see and feel under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and trusted believers to either affirm or examine what we share regarding the Word and how we interpret the verses. Though, I'm sure, well meaning, Macarthur is a sinner and prone to the flesh and ego strokes, and he's getting plenty of those from his reformed pals who keep heaping praise and adoration for his ministry as though EVERYTHING he says is gospel truth. God save us from the love of men.
@@eugenejoseph7076 💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯
Red tie Macarthur is nailing it. The pastor from the Calvinist church I just left wasn't too happy with my answer when he asked, how can you listen to all of these different teachings and get one theological knowledge. I said, eat the meat and spit out the bones. He just scoffed at it during small group, though a pretty biblical and short paraphrase, test the spirits and hold fast to what is true and good, eat the meat and spit out the bones.
So, you left it ?! 😅
"Eat the meat and spit out the bones". Good one. 😅
@@andrab1287 yes. My family and I only went there for about a year. I grew a lot and learned a ton through opposition. It forced me to get deeper into the Word as to appropriately have an answer for why I reject Calvinism even when shown and explained their prooftexts. The youth program teaching consisted of games mixed with watching Piper sermons on UA-cam. My oldest daughter has enough discernment to see the red flags and untruths though. It was getting harder on my wife to not be fed and I worried about my youngest two, so we left. A few of the other local churches, though their statement of faith was spot on, the pastor would slip some calvinistic language in at times. We did finally find a wonder church locally that is rock solid theologically. We've only gone two Sundays and a Wednesday, but I've honestly never heard teaching as simple and deep at the same time. The teaching pastors main focus is, the letters in the order they were received, and to who they were written. If the letter was to a mixed crowd, then he pinpoints where Paul makes the switches to who he's addressing. It's the way I teach, a foundation of simple truths that you start with will help understand the rest. Paul may speak about non-believers but he only ever wrote to Christians. He never used the term "elect" unless he was writing to Jews, like the Bible teaches, the elect were only and always the nation of Israel. If Paul wrote to a mixed crowd, he made sure he included specifically the Gentiles that he was speaking to.
The 2nd clip from MacArthur not only contradicts total inability as Dr Flowers said, but it also contradicts irresistible grace.
So all he's left with is ULP, which is the sound you make when you know you've messed up.
Proves MacArthur isn't a true Calvinist.
@patrickbarnes9874 Yep! It sure does! Good catch!
As always - truth wrapped in gentle, kind, and rightly-divided rebuke - THANK YOU, Dr Flowers!
This was a masterful rebuttal to Calvinism. Thank you for posting, Dr. Flowers. Press on, brother!
"Inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument" - James White, Calvinist
😭😭
Even a stopped clock is right twice in 24 hours
Jimmy boy should know. He is consistently inconsistent.
@@johnbreitmeier3268 Why the mocking tone? Is that Christlike?
@@berean77 So, Mr. Poopy Pants, are you really concerned about a "mocking tone" when we are talking about an evil lying heretic teaching a false gospel that is leading people to Hell? I think your concern is vastly misplaced and border line insane.
Was Elijah wrong when he mocked the prophets of Baal and asked if their god was on the toilet? Was Jesus wrong when he mocked the Pharisees who asked him a trick question about paying taxes by asking them why they were carrying a a graven image of Caesar in their pocket? Grow up Karen..
Calvinists have two options:
1) preach contrary to what their stated beliefs are (and be utterly inconsistent/misleading)
2) preach faithfully to what your system teaches (and be accused of being a hyper Calvinist)
Well put. I think most calvinists must be inconsistent or then even in calvinistic camps other calvinists would accuse them of taking man's responsibility away but that is exactly what this gnostic determinism does: man has no libertarian free will so... God must decree all things.
"Because they did not and would not receive".
"So believe while you can."
Yup. Sounds like a call to repentance.
AMEN Brother! I cannot be a calvinist because I will not blame our perfect God for my imperfect choices. He provides salvation out of love for us. We reject His provision out of love for self. So many times when I see someone who denies the deity of Jesus and His work on the cross, it's because they're reluctant to give up their sin. When they are broken and realize their sin leads to their ruin, or after reading the Word repeatedly they realize how much God really loves us, and what the cross really means, they break and submit to Jesus!
Well you deny self then - he shows us how to pray to The Father - we admit our will is fractured and fallen and we need help - and the spirit changes us into a new creation so yeah a new will based on denying the old one and old ways of thinking - surely we have a will but it’s lead us astray and we own that and his power is made perfect through our weakness not out good use of free will .
*our
This is a very powerful method to spotlight glaring contradictions in Calvinism - by showing videos of famous Calvinists blatantly contradicting themselves.
May God bless this ministry abundantly!
Macarthur did well to teach me that to be "Double tonged" disqualifies a person from the position of teacher. Funny isn't it? Jesus said "by your words you will be condemned" Houston we have a problem!
It took me a second to get it, but “Oh! Right! Why would God cut someone off for unbelief who’s been cut off from birth, or even before they were born.”
@borntofly9438 Yep! No need to cut somebody off if their already cut off!
What frustrates me with calvinists is this: when they talk about God's calvinisti sovereignty and their misunderstanding of salvation they are going by tulip, but when they talk about responsibility of man to believe in Christ Jesus for eternal life and remission of sins then they contradict their own calvinistic system. Why? They should just say, to be consistent, this: hope you have been chosen of God to be saved in Christ Jesus from hellfire and in the meanwhile do whatever you wanna do since God has decreed all of your good and sinful actions.
Well you deny self then - he shows us how to pray to The Father - we admit our will is fractured and fallen and we need help - and the spirit changes us into a new creation so yeah a new will based on denying the old one and old ways of thinking - surely we have a will but it’s lead us astray and we own that and his power is made perfect through our weakness not out good use of free will .
*our
So very very thankful for your video! I "was" a total Sinner, but have come to realize my Sin and come to repentance! Praise the Lord! Wow!
Leighton, thank you for all your input. I had not run into too many 5-point Calvinists, but last year when I was teaching apologetics, I ran into one smack-on when it came to choice. He said we have no choice. I agree that Christ died for the entire world, including anybody and everybody, even if they rejected Christ. As you know, Jesus said, if you lift Me up, I will draw all men to Myself, and He did at the cross. God is the initiator, and we are but responders by faith, which is not a work but a response to God‘s provision through Christ. I saw this quote, and I thought it was pretty reasonable. “I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. -Galileo. I hope to help contribute to your ministry. Last point, I am so blessed to see your humility and your love for our Brothers in Christ; no matter what we agree or disagree with, it comes across clearly. May this encourage you. In His love and grace, Ken
Is this a straw man argument since MacArthur isn't preaching Calvinism when he "contradicts" himself? Isn't what an Arminian does?
Wow he seems to try avoiding Arminianism and walked straight into provisionism as you persistently articulate in the short time I've seen listening to you Dr Flowers, by the way thank you for not only clarifying for me why I became uncomfortable with armianism and gravitas towards calvinism. This also make sense how some brilliant Armenians will point out the contradictions between Calvin the theologian (Christian Institutes)and the exegit and expositor(Commentries).Not armianism but provisionism adresses the supposed tension. Thank you God for you sir, may God continue to bless you.
I like it when a Calvinist has to look at the limb he didn't realize he was sawing off. 🐘
😂
This is one of my favourite videos of your recent output Dr Flowers.
Thank you for such a clear, loving description of why this matters.
God bless you and your ministry.
D
The Calvinist must feel so sorry and embarrassed for the apostle Paul and his naïveté, who foolishly thought that he could save people. First Corinthians 9.22. “To the weak became I as weak that I might gain the weak. I am made all things to all men that I might, by all means, save some.”
...great point!...
I've been wondering if any Calvinist has ever come to the conclusion of Calvinism just from reading scripture alone? If they said yes, I'd have a hard time believing it. Every Calvinist that I've talked to has a Macarthur study bible, Grudem systematic theology book, and or an ESV translation, and has also predominantly listened to Sproul, Lawson, Macarthur, or Piper for their learning.
I personally have a Grudem systematic theology book, ESV bible, have listened to tons of wonderful Macarthur sermons, and some pretty bad ones. I didn't even know Driscoll was one until recently, same with one of my favorites, Alistair Begg, and Charles Spurgeon. I've listened to Louie Giglio as much as I have Greg Laurie and have never been lead to Calvinism. Simple straight reading of scripture, I've not been led to Calvinism. I've not read anything into scripture. Just do my best to understand the context, the audience, the timing, and see that it doesn't contradict elsewhere. To me, I guess I've always been a Provisionist Christian. Most of the Christians I talk with in person are too, though like me, until recently, don't actually use that label. I'm a Christian that was told I was and had to be an Arminian by Calvinists. Though I see similarities, I don't fit that mold.
It seems they are veiled towards Calvinism, but by who, God, Satan, or self? My wife told me this thought that made a lot of sense. She said it's like a form of pareidolia. Like one of those paintings that you can't see, until you see, then it's hard to unsee. Someone is told to see something in scripture, "shown" Calvinism, then even when you show them that it was inserted and not really there, it sure is hard for them to unsee.
Calvinists don't believe calvinism....
Practically every calvinist preacher I've listened to, read their books, etc has contradiced calvinism regularly. Especially on the subject of determinism.
@@djohnson3093 well, I definitely cannot say you're wrong. I just listened to a Voddie Bacham sermon recently, same thing. "I believe God sovereignly made all things come to pass" next sentence, "men are responsible for their own sin"...
Good points. I wish I knew more about Calvin himself and his background to understand how he came to believing what he taught. Sure, I can see how certain passages taken by themselves could lead a person to Calvinism, but not when placed into and against the broader context of the entire narrative of scripture, because there is so much more that you would have to ignore or minimalize.
@jonhilderbrand4615 Calvin got it from Augustine who had a gnostic, manichaean and pantheistic background mixed into his theology.
@@vn2562 I agree completely, historically. Denied the Gospel initially, Manichaean for almost 10 years while defending gnostic determinism. Became Christian, the only early church father that didn't know Greek, believed in free will, fought with Pelagian, didn't believe in free will anymore, then learned Greek.
MacArthur appeared to be getting revelation whilst he was preaching that sermon. But will he reject the teaching of Calvinism?
Aside from the lessons stemming from Calvinistic teachings, I still really like macarthur. I still think he's brilliant. He's written alot of good books that have nothing to do with Calvinism that I've learned a lot from in my growing in Christ. Really love this critique of him as well. I've learned so much from your critiques of Calvinism. So good.
I find it problematic how MacArthur has consistently been covering up horrendous abuse cases in his church, even disciplining and excommunicating a woman who divorced her husband who was found guilty of sexually abusing their children.
@@heathereads9594 oh yeah absolutely that's a bad situation for sure. No doubt about it.
His duplicitous treatment of Chuck Smith was grotesque as well. They had interacted at various points in their careers in positive ways. After Chuck announced he had cancer JM tried teeing off on Chuck during his anti-pentecostal, Strange Fire conference like Chuck was a charismatic nut job.
I always found the Calvinist EVERYTHING IS S WORK AND CANT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION a buzzard mix with REAL BELIEVERS DON’T smoke, dance, drink, wear suits, and etc, to be a bizarre, contradictory mix.
He always came off as a modern day pharisee to me. To many concerning issues for me to sit and listen to him as a pastor.
its okay if you can distinguish and as @officialDavidRees says above, able to eat the meat and spit out the bone.... many people don't know to spit out the bone and instead choke on it
Hello. I'm afraid I can't share your liking of Macarthur. I have heard him speak arrogantly and from a viewpoint that disregards Scripture but serves his own philosophical ideas. Plus, with calvinism, he teaches a different gospel that is no gospel at all.
Without contradictions and lies, Calvinism dies.
That's that "Without lies, Islam dies."
It's remarkable how much Islam and Calvinism have in common when it comes to presestination. Some high-profile gorilla of Muhammad said that even if he were with one foot in their heaven he'd be afraid Allah would go like: "Hey, dude, jk; get outta here!"
Even Allah calls himself "the greatest of all deceivers".
Coincidence? I think not.
Given that Muhammad used Gnostic sources, and was a total illiterate (mixing Christianity with Mosaism), I am not surprised.
Even as JM is reading his own notes, it's like he's having an "illumination" moment. JM is an intelligent man, so I know he has to comprehend the duplicity of his theology.
Maybe he is starting to wake up from the delusion
You're right Leighton. What MacArthur said in the second clip cannot even apply to either the "elect" or the "reprobate", according to their definitions of those terms.
Dr. flowers, when will your book be available here in Philippines, im an avid watcher of your videos and I learned a lot (Glory be to the Lord) not just about the issue of calvinism, but in so many terms, especially as a Christian, i learn a lot from your journey and testimonies.
bottom; i wanna read ur book. please i hope you notice this. Godbless you, ur family, and your ministry dr. flowers.
I caught that too. I noticed when they hear Scripture say it like it is, they immediately rush to qualify Scripture with Calvinism.
It’s really really sad to see men do this. I know because I was once one if them.
Yes, exactly! "Now, when the Bible says 'all' in this verse, it clearly doesn't mean ALL. It obviously means "all of the elect", because determinism!"...
@@Drspeiser Are you saying God doesn't hold all things together by the Word of His power ?
@Pablo Nope, not at all. I'm saying that Calvinism warps and obscures who God is, and one of the many ways that's done is by redefining biblical words.
@@Drspeiser Thank you for responding. Are you saying 'all' men can see ? What verse do you have that says all men can see ? If one can see - what 'decision to trust in Christ' is necessary? When God the Father revealed to Peter who Jesus was - did Peter then need to make a decision to believe it ? If he did then God's wasn't a very good communicator :)
And if one can't see - why would they believe ?? Please explain why someone would believe if they can't see ? Where's the freedom in that?
"If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed."
@@Pablo-p7y When the Bible says God desires ALL people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth, the only reason to say "all" doesn't mean "all" is some external extra-biblical grid you've put in place that says God doesn't want all to be saved. When it says in 1 John 2:2 "and not for ours only, but for the whole world" there is absolutely no reason to think that it means anything other than "the whole world".
Calvinism; the "dissociative identity disorder" of Christian theology.
Amen! DSM worthy.
Another crushing blow.
"Somethings dont need to refuted, just adequately explained "
Brilliant sir. Praise God for your insight and guidance
Leighton I do love how you articulate the clear contradictions within their view of electron ie. "Irresistible, unconditionally" which has never harmonized to me in reading the Scriptures since the first time i was introduced to this view... sadly it isn't always brought up in a pastors sermons immediately. So thank you for once again showing the clarity side by side!!! And being a voice in the wilderness i know it isn't easy to stand up against calvinism....
Blessings to you🌻
Calvinism has made determinism an idol
Unfortunately so. I was in a reformed church for 2 years and I used to listen to calvinist pastors a whole lot. They always talk about Augustine, Calvin, Spurgeon etc. How about we'd not follow J.C as in John Calvin but THE J. C that is Jesus Christ, our Lord and God?
Couldn’t have said it any better. It appears to be an arrogance there as well. I don’t know if it’s out an offense to defend the idol, or blinded by ignorance of the proper interpretation of scripture, pride, or all of the above. Either way it’s definitively an idol.
@@Jquarles1973 I do think self righteous people love Calvisim. They love being the chosen ones.
Well you deny self then - he shows us how to pray to The Father - we admit our will is fractured and fallen and we need help - and the spirit changes us into a new creation so yeah a new will based on denying the old one and old ways of thinking - surely we have a will but it’s lead us astray and we own that and his power is made perfect through our weakness not out good use of free will .
*our
Can anyone provide the link to or date of these two MacArthur sermons? They really should have been provided as a basic footnote. It would be helpful to be able to hear them in the full context, not just a 40 second clip out of a 50 minute sermon. Thanks.
It wasn’t 40 seconds. The clip was over seven minutes long. Plenty of content to establish a clear and accurate perception of his contradicting the hours and hours of his teaching otherwise.
@@krissyyoung9264 The second clip of John MacArthur was less than 40 seconds long. Check it out for yourself.
It is normal practice to cite sources, there is no good reason not to.
Best explanation for Calvinists is that the other McArthur is the alter ego.
Would you please post a link to both sermons? I'd like to see the full context of what he is saying to make a more accurate judgement of his alleged contradiction. Thank you.
Most of my friends who are pastors (those who went to reformed seminaries and who serve in reformed denominations) minister and think non-Calvinistically almost 100% of the time, but teach Calvinism when they come to a text which they've been trained to interpret within a Calvinistic framework.
Classic example of McArthur sawing off the branch he's standing on. I am raised with Calvinistic doctrine, but by studying the critique from these respectable critics as Flowers and Winger I see more and more how Calvinism collapses like a house of cards when it comes to consistency. I still live with my parents, and they are Calvinists, so I'm gonna study as hard as possible so I can have a shot at trying to get them to think logicly. Thank you for this exelent example dr. Flowers!
The only doctrinal disagreement I’ve had with MacArthur (who is probably my favorite preacher) is Calvinism. I’m glad to see I’m in good company with MacArthur himself in disagreeing.
Lordship salvation is another one and his extreme view of charismatics, that, if I remember correctly, most of them are wrong. Extreme charismatics are messed upbut there are thinking, wise charismatics who do not think miracles are for every day, all should speak in tongues, that God wants all to be healed from every disease on this side of eternity etc.
MacArthur is right on Israel and eschatology though, for that I thank God :)
I find myself agreeing with MacArthur quite a bit. But I don’t agree with them on young earth creationism either. But that’s just me.
@@Papasquatch73 "But I don’t agree with them on young earth creationism either"
Then you don't believe your Bible.
@@Pablo-p7y can you tell me where the Bible states that without using philosophy? As soon as you start telling me what the Bible means when it says something you have stepped into Philosophy and I have a right to disagree with that.
@@Papasquatch73
"We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time." Rom 8:22
Why is it groaning ?
When did it start groaning ?
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" Rom 5:12
How many days of creation ?
If they are not days - what are they ?
God says "there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God."
Free willists say stuff it in your ear God - we declare libertarian free will - and we can seek if we want to!!!
But God says: “I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.”
Really though this is how a lot of Calvinist preachers will preach. "Believe like a Calvinist, preach like an Arminian. After someone converts as a result of a message like this, then they'll be hit with the "doctrines of grace".
Which invokes one of Jesus' rebukes to the scribes and Pharisees: "you travel land and sea to win one proselyte and when he is won you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are."
@@DamonNomad82 Amen on that!
One thing that struck me is MacArthur was using
“ you “ statements to his congregation. So he’s seeming to be speaking to Calvinists. So he also negates another tulip tenant if inability to resist grace. He says there’s a time when you can no longer believe then , a Calvinist CAN RESIST God’s grace which by is the whole point of this discussion.
Salvation is offers to all and it is up to each individual to become a whosever and accept that free grace gift. Therefore, a Calvinist will also run out of time eventually to get saved.
He totally disproved the core of Calvinism by this very contradiction.
John’s two favorite lines are, “It’s either all God, or it’s all man” (referring to salvation); and “man is unwilling because he is unable”.
Could you please provide links for these referenced sermons?
Not trying to cause trouble, just interested in hearing the whole context of the messages.
Don't mind me being like the persistent widow, but could you at least give the dates and sermon titles/text that you are referencing?
I have seen both Calvinism and the pre-trib rapture flourish in my lifetime. Having said that, in my studies and experience, I believe they are both man-made lies. Calvinism, and many Calvinists, have just become boorish to me. Anybody who has seen humanity, with the true love of God in their heart, knows of God's indescribable love for us and plan of salvation. The fact that God, Himself, would humble Himself to point of death, for us, is mind-boggling. The thought of a god, who could save everyone, yet chooses not to do so, is not real. Sure, we must wrestle with some scriptures, but that wrestling need not end in anybody thinking that God made us to be mere puppets with no chance of hearing and receiving His free gift. Receiving a free gift is not a work and all the glory goes to the Savior. Wake up.
Pre-trib Rapture has a 0% batting average since it was made up in the 1800's. Reminds me of the cults on the college quad - they always knew exactly when something was going to happen, until it didn't.
If God love everyone - why will He cast those He loves into the Lake of Fire ?
@@Pablo-p7y He loves those cast into the lake of fire. Person made the choice not to love God, and God ultimately honors their choice. God is Love!
@@Pablo-p7y He honors their choice to disobey Him and doesn't force anyone to love Him back. It is simple, really.
@@billpletikapich5640 So you would cast those you love into hell - just to honor them :) ok
I struggle to understand why there are so many MacArthur fan boys when he is so wrong about his insistence on Calvinism, which turns God into a sick monster. What else has he gotten completely wrong? Why should we believe that is the only thing?
I also disagree with his hyper-literal reading of cosmological and apocalyptic texts in the bible, because that is out of context.
Could the people follow someone and not become like them? Look at the brothers and sisters who follow MacArthur. It is not creating monsters. They are God-honoring people.
@@yesitis1395
Mormons are also God honoring people. Does that mean that what they teach is correct ?
He has also said you can take the Mark of the Beast and still be saved - when the Bible says you can't.
Great catch Leighton! Keep doing Gods work! We really appreciate it 🙏😊
JM has plenty of material over the years giving the exact same contradictory teachings, so no one can claim he is getting old and hast lost his fastball.
He misquoted 1 Corinthians. It never says that natural man can't understand things of God. It say he can't understand things of the Spirit. Very important distinction.
Seems a distinction without a difference
Well Holy Spirit is God(see Acts 5 and Romans 8 for one), 3rd person of trinity.
Now 1 Cor. 2 is about theological, biblical matters of faith. A born again christian can help an unbeliever to understand the things of God. No unsaved man can understand the Bible on his or her own without aid from Holy Spirit. (Btw. I am no calvinist)
@@NikoFinn Yes people can understand the Bible without any special enabling.
@@peterfox7663 It's not without a difference. Understanding the concept of God, creation, authority, heaven, life etc is far different than the discernment and leading of the Holy Spirit.
John MacArthur / Calvinism / Lordship salvation caused me to doubt my salvation and the Goodness of God
I understand Calvinism causing you to doubt the goodness of God. Went through that myself. But why would Lordship salvation? My understanding of that is that you fully submit to God as Lord of your life and deny yourself and the desires of the flesh. I think that reflects the goodness of God. It's sanctification that conforms us to the image of Jesus.
@@calegrandy7197 if one "fully submits "
one is Sinless and Perfect practically
@@andrewlineberger7544 And what is the problem with that?
@@calegrandy7197 Nobody ever "fully submits". Not me, you or John MacArthur.
@@ddr5138 right, we don't because we still have to deal with our sin nature even after we are saved. But the point is that full submission to Jesus should be the goal, however badly we mess it up. Would you agree?
Oh boy, John Mac just got Leighton'd!
👏
Enleightonment.
It seems that every Calvinist I have had a conversation with ends up contradicting themselves. My favorite is when someone was trying to defend their stance on predestination and then she ended by saying, "Oh, how I wish everyone would see this wonderful truth." Mind boggling!
[Rom 9:3 KJV] 3 "For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:" You must think this verse is mind boggling as well. Why in the world would Paul wish for something he knew was an impossibility? Why does anyone wish for anything they know is an impossibility? The heart wants what it wants. There is nothing mind boggling nor contradictory in wishing for something one knows is an impossibility. It's simply a desire that can never be fulfilled. It's quite a common occurrence for the human race given our weaknesses.
Thank you Dr. Flowers.
God bless you.
Oh my gosh I am so glad you did this!! I just listened to that sermon a few days so and was thinking this EXACT thing!!!! Total contradiction on his part!
Do you have a link to this sermon? Im trying to find it but having no luck.
I wonder how James White will respond to this ?
Me to
I’d like to hear how MacArthur himself would respond to this.
He’ll shrug his shoulders, and say, “Well, maybe you’re not chosen, John.”
😂 Who knows?
Probably the same way they've answered in the past.
Macarthur would say, "It's not a contradiction, it fits, I don't know how, but it does, I'm not God."
White would say, "Leighton is misrepresenting Calvinists again, he just doesn't know Calvinism."
It doesn’t say the sinner is unable, it says the mind set on the flesh is unable. That just means the mind cannot simultaneously be set on the flesh and the things of God… always making something plain into some kind of hidden truth….
The older that MacArthur gets, the harder it gets to cover up the contradictions of Calvinism vs the plain teachings of the scriptures.
Mr Flowers would you send me the link from the second video. Please.
Anybody know what McArthur message this was from? My Calvinist friend that I shared the information with and questioned him about it. He wants to listen to the entire message he says in context !
Leighton, could you please provide the link to the MacArthur sermon in the second clip where you say that he is actually teaching provisionism? I just want to be a good Berean & listen to the full sermon to get the full context to make sure that what you are saying is true. It's very hard to be sure of that from such a short clip.
Thank You.
I think this is when they (Calvinist) say that they don’t know who are the elect.
Mmhm, that is it. They wanna keep man responsible for sin and to personally believe but their own theological system has taken it away so they are inconsistent and hence have cognitive dissonance on simple logic in God's absolute sovereignty and man's free will responsibility. It would be like if I made a computer program and everything were determined by me. Then I tell them in the game that the bots are responsible for their own actions and they should and they can choose to do what I want, well... if I habe determined some bots to not choose what I want then logically they have no choice but to resist my will.
Not fair traveling to alternate universe and taking a clip from Provisionist MacArthur like that.
Lol
Love the cups, Dr Flowers! Grateful for your illustration and it's good to be reminded.
It blows my mind how calvinist can twist scripture. The simplest scripture like the tree of good and evil in the garden shows man had a choice to obey God or do what we choose to do
This is what is so confusing about Calvinism. How can it be our fault if we don’t place our faith in Jesus?
Catholics place their faith in Jesus too - man generated faith never saved anyone.
Catholics place their faith in their church, their works, their “saints” etc. , not on Christ alone, calvinists place their faith on regeneration and according to what I’ve learnt from them, their works are the evidence of their faith, seems a little like works salvation to me, kinda catholic
@shawnmason that's the reality that Scripture describes even if you don't understand it.....And it is the reality of all those people in tribes that NEVER heard the gospel and died in unbelief. They are responsible even though they never heard the gospel.
@@christianmama2441 that’s the reality of a Calvinistic interpretation of scripture, not the reality of scripture, not a single passage in scripture says that a person can’t want to believe when the gospel is presented clearly.
@@Pablo-p7y Any faith never saves anyone. God alone saves.
I think McArthur must've hit his head before he preached in that last clip!
He didn't start out as a Calvinist but ended up going that direction. Leighton has a full sermon on his channel where McArthur preaches much like he does in the 2nd clip. It's amazing! Everyone needs to hear it.
I wonder if McArthur got a lot of questions after that message. The strange thing is that many Calvinists will preach like this from time to time & then when asked a question about their doctrine, will revert back to their TULIP theology & contradict what they previously had preached.
The funny thing is, I would like to see Leighton play this clip for McArthur & ask him to respond to it. I would suspect he wouldn't even admit that he was contradicting himself! Then again, he may just fall silent! At any rate, I'd love to see a response from him!
Good job, Dr. Flowers! Would like to see more like this!
Is he quoting a verse in the second clip? I can’t find it 🤦🏻♀️
I've never seen a Calvinist who teaches like a Calvinist on any subject outside of teaching about Calvinism.
Amen amen amen!! I’m so thankful for you!!
I had a friend send me one of your videos (the 5 points that led me out of calvinism) and I must say, I thought it was excellent. Very nice job with your approach and not being divisive with the brethren!! Let me give you a gentle challenge. I just had to stop at the 10 minute mark to make a respectful comment. You are speaking for John MacArthur in this video. Remember, he was preaching a sermon and not defending or teaching his views on Calvinism. I am currently studying both sides of this argument and that is why I am listening to this video now. Learning sooo much. I think your comments are probably more appropriate for a hyper-calvinist, perhaps. There is no one who takes "biblical Calvinism" seriously that would say we do not have to evangelize. They would say we Must evangelize, because there are sheep that still have not come into the fold yet. Only God Himself knows who they are, and we may be the only Bible they ever hear. Just because someone is not saved today, it does not mean they will not be saved five years from now. In my opinion, he is preaching to those who sit in churches all over our country who are not Yet born again. I am not sure how we would ever know, when talking to an unbeliever, if they will ever be saved. Through the lens of the Calvinist, if they are among the elect. Through the lens of an Arminian, if they will ever freely choose Him. In your other video that I liked so much you mentioned that most Calvinists say that all Arminians say and assume that "God looks through the tunnel of time and... Well, this seems like you are slipping a little into that same frame of mind on your side of the arguement. Most Calvinists would defend John as I have above and Not just say he mis-spoke. I would say he spoke truth, very clearly, and we need to remember that we take the gospel of Jesus Christ to all the lost world. Only God alone knows who will ultimately respond to His voice and exactly When they will do so. Let me know your thoughts, by all means!
Once again, I appreciate and respect you!
Eric
This was a contradiction. A Calvinist cannot honestly claim that God will allow someone to repent at one point only to block them later on. They claim that each persons decisions were determined long ago so this whole message is inconsistent with Determinism. If a person is 'elect' they cannot refuse His call in the first place so that is another inconsistency with Calvinism.
What verses are MacArthur walking through? What sermon is this? Does anyone have a link to this sermon?
Can you please link the sermons used in the clip?
Does anyone have the link to the original inconsistent message? I need this to share with a loved one. Thanks
Does anyone have the links to the John MacArthur videos?
I pray for the confused man.
Thank You for your Ministry !
Another great video brother ❤
If a calvinist after watching this video does not walk away from calvinism, I dont know what to say /.........
Why would some people reject the gospel and others do not? Can you provide an answer of why someone who choose not to accept the gospel when they can someone able to accept it?
I think the verse about the leopard is in Jeremiah
The best kind of Calvanist is one that accepts scripture and contradicts Calvanism.
Dr. Flowers, I just want to say I appreciate the work you do here on your channel. Please help me understand provisionism a little better. Is provisionism the belief that we are all sinners and if we repent and out our faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior we will be saved, and that a true believer can’t lose their salvation? Thank you for your time.
What are the years between these 2 clips? If there is time perhaps he is growing?
How can one access online studies
Very well done. I was a Calvinist for a short time and it was not until I heard Frank Turek give the best explanation of Predestination vs Free will. and if I remember correctly, I believe Turek learned this from you Dr. Flowers!
at times when I was a Calvinist, some things still didn't add up with the theology but after going through the scriptures, heard what Turek said about it and discovered Dr. Flowers, it makes perfect that Calvinism is a theology with inconsistencies and even obvious contradictions....now I won't go around and say that Calvinism is a false doctrine because i truly it is not since Calvinists do have a correct view on salvation (by God's grace through Faith alone in Christ Alone) but I do believe that Calvinism, in the regard that God has already predetermined who's going to Heaven and Hell is unintentionally taken out of context
I'm curious about the starting position of each clip. In the first JMac clip, was JMac starting with the presupposition of his Total Depravity doctrine when citing his proof texts? Whereas in the 2nd clip, he wasn't attempting to address Total Depravity but some other topic?
It's been my experience with Calvinists that they pick and choose when to apply they're doctrine. Hence it can be confusing when hearing contradictory sermons. Often my experience.
Can you please link the sermon of Pastor John? Thanks
My environment ist like undercover calvinistic. I am so happy I didn't end up in the calvinistic philosophy, because I was open for it earlier.
Its far more than a tendency. That it contradicts itself is a certainty on every single point, no matter what they talk about.
Blessed is the man that *endureth temptation* for *when he is tried* he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to *them that love him*
{James 1:12}
Thank you pastor the truth of salvation Well.said GOD WONT NEVER REJECT ANYONE AMEN
it was decreed that I comment a word of encouragement to you, Brother Leighton.
Actually, I chose to comment on my own free will.
With his biased defenses down the truth of scripture caught him off guard.
MacArthur actually preaches the Gospel correctly many times; that's how people get roped into buying his books, which contain the deceit.
MacArthur is a legalist. He rightly opposes sin and is against these woke movements and anti-biblical nonsense of our era, but lordship salvation is not the Gospel of Christ and it leads to legalism for those who are truly saved in Christ Jesus by grace alone and faith alone
Well, yeah, a kind of Provisionism, but the later clip shows a cuckoo, cognitive dissonance. On the one hand, John Mac pleads with the sinner to believe. On the other hand, in the same video, he explains the sinner's total inability without effectual grace to believe. I will not preach *this* inconsistent message.
I really really really really love this.!
Wow. This is really revealing. It seems he (MacArthur) really doesn't believe his own theology. Hmmm.
That confirms my understanding of calvinism. I now know i am not a calvinist and im very happy to know
Blatant contradictions. Thank you for showing this. I was recently labelled as having a poor understanding of scripture for pointing out things like this about Calvinism
When did John MacArthur say this?