"Sometimes a view doesn't need to be refuted. Sometimes it just needs to be clearly stated/explained." How very true. This is the second best reason to reject Calvinism after the Scriptures (in context) themselves. I've concluded that the second best path to rejecting Calvinism is simply to understand it.
@@reynaldodavid2913Jo that all events are predetermined or pre-ordained. True to a degree, but free will is the flesh the sin nature, meaning you can't fulfill the lords commands by your own free will without gods encouragement. So determinism is a philosophical phrase that says something is in control of all outcomes and possibilities in the calvanist case God, but the issue with the calvanist tulip 5 points is they claim gods only Sovereign towards the elect that's pride so their whole 5 points are utterly meaningless and promotes legalism and a sense of spiritual pride that is not just dangerous but blasphemous.
@@reynaldodavid2913Jo Aha. But even if I explain Determinism to you, you won't believe it or understand it unless you've been Determined to do so... Determinism is basically just Fatalism by another name. In essence, it is the belief that all things which come to pass were decided and ordained from the beginning of reality. In Calvinism, the one who Ordains all things is God. Interestingly enough, Atheists also believe in Determinism, but they believe that the Ordaining factor is Science.
@@GhostBearCommander atheistic determinism is explained as cause and effect with the the first cause being the original mover. how are you just gonna say science?
The fact that somebody bases their thinking on the teachings of a man that came 1500 years after the birth of Jesus, rather than on Jesus Himself, should set the alarm bells ringing.
God sends his ministers and prophets throughout all ages. Sometimes more public. Augustine, Calvin, Owen these were public ministers. HUNDREDS more whose names you've never heard because persecuted by the Pharisees during their day.
James White: "God decreed it, so He is not responsible. If He didn't decree it, then He would be responsible." What kind of twisted and boneheaded logic is that???
James White reminds me a lot of an old Loony Tunes cartoon character called "Elmer Fuddstone" (a caveman version of Elmer Fudd who hunted the "saber-toothed wabbit", aka Bugs Bunny with much longer front teeth). Elmer Fuddstone was smart enough, in the stone age, to invent gunpowder just from having it suggested to him, but was dumb enough to take the "saber-toothed wabbit's" advice on which way to have the gun barrel point, so that he would hit himself rather than his target when he shot the gun. In the same way, James White is smart enough to work his way to the top of the pecking order of the Calvinistic wing of the Baptists, but dumb enough to hold laughably illogical positions like the one you quoted above...
Exactly right... sometimes you have to right these things out to see how absurd it is. His argument is something like: 1. Evil only has purpose and meaning if God causes it to happen. 2. God causes evil. Therefore evil has purpose and meaning. I deny both premises.
@@martytu20 I like what you did there! Allow me to elaborate on it: "Generalissimo Blanco, Commander of the Strawman army of the West, packs all of his fallacious artillery shells with the powder of cognitive dissonance and lobs his ludicrous munitions at imaginary targets in the fog."
@@garyleemusic Seems like circular reasoning: Evil can only have a purpose if God decrees it -> assumes that men cannot have purposes for committing evil acts --> assumes that God decrees evil acts.
Wow! I praise GOD who gave you a sense of humor, and I despise White not for his nature, but for his apparent total depravity which he has reached through his communion with his demons.
@@joshualeibrant3443 Romans 11:1-2) I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he "FOREKNEW" (Romans 8:29) For whom he did "FOREKNOW" he also did predestinate to be CONFORMED to the IMAGE OF HIS SON (Ephesians 1:4-5) According as he hath "CHOSEN US" in him BEFORE the foundation of the world, that WE should be HOLY and without blame before him in love having "PREDESTINATED US" unto the "ADOPTION" of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will ☝️ Ethnic Israel is predestined - it's pretty simple
@@isaiah345-6 "We are all GOD's offspring" Paul told the pagan Athenians. You do not know the word behind "adoption" is literally "son placed" which is where a natural son of his father was placed in position to receive his inheritance? What, do you believe that the devil creates sons for himself? You then believe in two creators do ya now?
@@joshualeibrant3443 Just a heads-up: "True Gospel" is one of the many accounts made by a troll I call CWN (short for "Cricket-Worshiping Nimrod") due to his frequent use of the word "Crickets" as a reply when he's called on his garbage, and once used it as a reply when another poster asked who his god was, and due to the fact that he, like the Biblical Nimrod, is a son of Cush who tried to usurp the power/identity of God's people (as he is one of the self-described "Hebrew Israelite" cultists). I suggest ignoring him.
@@jibblecain that’s not what that means. It’s narrow because it’s only Jesus, not some obscure path. Thank God theological precision isn’t required to be saved. I guarantee you you’ve got a lot wrong with your theology just as Calvinists do.
@@florida8953 SALVATION IS ETHNIC ISRAEL BEING SAVED FROM THEIR ENEMIES (Luke 1:68-72) Blessed be the Lord God of ISRAEL; for he hath visited and redeemed HIS PEOPLE and hath raised up an horn of "SALVATION" for "US" that WE should be SAVED from OUR "ENEMIES", and from the hand of all that HATE "US" to perform the mercy promised to OUR FATHERS, and to remember his holy COVENANT LIST OF ETHNICITIES THAT HATE GOD (Psalm 83:1-8) hold not thy peace, and be not still, O God For, lo, THINE ENEMIES make a tumult: and THEY that HATE THEE have lifted up the head They have taken crafty counsel against THY PEOPLE, and consulted against thy hidden ones. They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance the tabernacles of E. D. O. M and the Ishmaelites; of Moab, and the Hagarenes Gebal, and Ammon, and Amalek; the Philistines with the inhabitants of Tyre; Assur also is joined with them: they have holpen the children of Lot. Selah
@@florida8953 but also, they’re correct because plenty of professing Christians never find the real gate. They follow a Jesus of their own making instead
I don't believe I can be more loving than my God. I can't believe that people admit "this is evil" but it's ok because it's God doing it. With all the overwhelming mercy and loving kindness you can read in passage after passage in the Bible, with the very gift of His Son and then to say "oh but just for the elect." Nobody else actually had a chance. I believe in the justice of God and the coming judgement. I admit there are parts of the Bible I don't really understand. But I will trust in God's love, keep studying His Word and pray to become more conformed to the likeness of Jesus.
When I was in the Jehovah's Witnesses cult..... occasionally people would say to me "Do you realize your in a cult".... I absolutely REJECTED that accusation BUT when I read the Bible without the lens of being in a cult.... it was only then that I saw scripture in a clear view.....this channel helped me significantly as reading through all the comments as well. The Calvinist remind me of a cult, they seem to follow the teachings of John Calvin instead of Jesus Christ. Reading in context matters!!!!! I've had to learn that myself. ❤
They seem to follow the teachings of John Calvin instead of Jesus Christ. Exactly! Calvinism isn't Christianity! And so does the other isms in there! I believe God left some things hard to understand so that we leave room for faith and walk with Christ even with the confusion so that we don't put Him in a box and say "I have it all figured out! I have contained Christ in TULIP/DAISY!". I believe God designed it so that we also have room to exercise love and humility!
Calvinism is many-faceted, ranging from sincere Christians who have bad doctrine when it comes to soteriology to all-out JW-grade cultists. Unlike the JWs, though, the extremist Calvinists' cult leaders aren't a living group of rich guys getting fat off those they have deceived, but a bunch of long-dead thinkers, philosophers and theologians that I refer to as DCPs (short for "dead Calvinists on Pedestals", with examples including the likes of Jonathan Edwards, Charles Spurgeon, JW Pink, RC Sproul, and, of course, John Calvin himself) whose teachings these Calvinists idealize to the point that if you dispute them, they act like you're disputing the Bible itself.
@@barryclevenger7456 False! Calvin created a system based primarily on Augustine's Manichean Gnostic blasphemies that falsely attributed aspects of pagan Greek gods to the Christian God and ripped bits and pieces of Paul's teachings completely out of their original context, redefined multiple words Paul used to mean something entirely different, and used the bits and pieces to "support" his false and demonic doctrines. He was hardly the first to do so, as Peter warned of false teachers in his time doing the same thing: "consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation-as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures." (2 Peter 3:15-16)
@@barryclevenger7456 Wrong again! Augustine initially converted to Christianity from Manicheanism, but when he got into his dispute with Pelagius, he went back to his Manichean roots and borrowed several false teachings from it, including the idea that guilt for wrongdoing could be passed from ancestors to descendants (which blatantly contradicts many Scriptures, notably Ezekiel Chapter 18), the idea that humans are born with a "sin nature", and the idea that God has a feeble, insecure "sovereignty" like that of the pagan Greek gods, that depends on micromanaging every atom of creation. Augustine then "re-packaged" these false teachings in a "Christian" tone, using out-of-context Bible verses to falsely support them. Pelagius never taught the things Augustine falsely accused him of teaching. The only doctrine Pelagius actually taught that was considered "unorthodox" was his emphasis that the rich needed to give all or most of their earthly possessions to the poor. Augustine tried and failed not once, but twice, to have Pelagius convicted of heresies by Church councils. The Bishop of Rome of the day even reprimanded Augustine for his treatment of Pelagius, though Honorius, one of the last and weakest western Roman Emperors, was a great admirer of Augustine and forced the Bishop of Rome to withdraw his reprimand. Augustine and his cronies then held their own council, made up an imaginary "heresy" that supposedly taught 14 doctrines, and called it "Pelagianism" out of sheer spite. Pelagius only partially agreed with one point out of the 14 and completely rejected the rest. This slander was widely successful at the time due to Augustine's popularity within the church of the day, but has been exposed. As for Arminius, he didn't take anything from Pelagius' teachings, real or imagined. Instead, he took John Calvin's teachings and tried to soften them up, while still remaining a devout Calvinist, and Augustinian, his entire life. It was only years after Arminius' death that the mainstream Calvinists held the Synod of Dort to address his teachings, which they chose to reject utterly in favor of "doubling down" on the more odious of Calvin's heresies.
You're right my friend and there's not a single explicit passage to back it up but there's so very many explicit full atonement passages that make it known by GOD that CHRIST truly died for all like HE said that HE came to do . CHRIST wouldn't tell HIS apostles to go into the whole world and preach the gospel to EVERY CREATURE if the HIS gospel wasn't for every creature. GOD bless you and I hope that you do come out of calvinism brother because when held in contrast to scripture it is blasphemy against the very character of GOD .
Keep searching the scriptures and keep praying for wisdom. The atonement is what broke the first chain for me too! God is light and in him there is no darkness at all.
I hate to break it to you, but you're going to find that limited atonement is not going to be the only thing you're going to be doubting about calvinism. You will be doubting all five points of TULIP because you'll find that it is not biblical. Depravity is biblical, not total depravity. Election is biblical, not unconditional election. Atonement is biblical, not limited atonement. Grace is biblical, not irresistible grace. The saints is biblical, not perseverance of the saints. You'll find that calvinism just hyperliteralizes the text, by eisegeting one passage into another, when both passages have nothing to do with each other. That's because calvinism literally redefines every single biblical term there is in order to avoid having their doctrine contradicted. It's a false doctrine, pure and simple.
James White said, “There is no reason for despair.” Calvinism itself is a System of despair. Thank you for your work. You are a good and faithful brother, Leighton.
Amen. The bottom line is, you could call on the name of The Lord for salvation, putting your whole trust on his finished work on the cross but never know if you are saved because their god may have determined for you to be deceived and determined your destination, hell. That is despair.
@@dirtyburd71yeah considering the holy spirits hiding nature, I never sense the presence of God when I see a calvanist speaker or teacher and that makes me uncertain and nervous. They're like the pharisees thinking they can police gods spiritual gifts well when you do that it ends up with them blaspheming the holy spirit. You can't hide what's inside, God is always right. Like new age making a false Jesus in their head, Calvanism like any other legalistic religious doctrine paints a false image of God. Might as well be Muslim then.
@@dirtyburd71 yes and not only this, but ironically when they employ their favorite strawman argument (aka the whole "you can claim credit" bit) they deny themselves the one thing that anchors a person's assurance of salvation to reality. Namely, that you met God's condition for forgiveness.
@@dirtyburd71 THANK YOU, for proving that you do NOT understand Calvinism/the reformed position. God isn’t going to trick you. If you’ve come to Christ, believed in Christ, trusted in Christ, then you are saved. You can’t even come to Christ unless the Father has drawn you to Him, and He will raise you up. Rest assured you are United with Christ, He is sure to raise you up. What you’ve described is literally not Calvinism. It’s not a roll of the dice. God isn’t cruel. Yes, YOU chose God, YOU came to Christ, YOU put your trust in Christ, it’s true! You just did all those things because God FIRST opened your eyes to the truth of Christ when he didn’t have to. If he is obligated to show you mercy and grace then it’s no longer mercy and grace. That’s why Flower’s wasn’t ever really reformed and this channel is whacky. Flowers actually made me reformed 😂His positions are weak and don’t make any sense.
As Grudem states on page 330 of his Systematic Theology text, “We confess that we do not understand how it is that God can ordain that we carry out evil deeds and yet hold us accountable for them and not be blamed Himself."
Which mystery seem more tenable; how God can have foreknowledge and us have free will at the same time or how God can decree our actions, thoughts and cells while not being held culpable for us having lustful thoughts to our stepmother?
In actuality, he is mocking God because, by Calvinistic determinism, he is making light of God’s decree of you not to believe in Calvinism. Nothing but nonsense and it attacks the very character of God and His love for mankind.
Like actually wtf is wrong we you. What a disgusting view point on other Christians. Because so believe God has ultimate control then those people are devils. The same way you judge other Christians you will be judged
@@ifthatthenthis3797 Believing Jesus only died for some people who are shown partiality and that the Gospel is actually terrible news for everyone God created reprobate destined for eternal punishment is pretty bad.
@@obrien709 no it isn't God has ultimate authority over us he can do what he wants. Who am I to tell God that He can create some for salvation and some for destruction
@@ericstephenson9038when we say our will is not free, we're also saying our will is not in bondage to sin. To be an image bearer is to have autonomy. If we can't love God of our own free will, we also can't sin of our own free will. Beings that don't have free will have never heard of free will.
, we do not love God of our own free will, but we love God because we responded in faith to His call to repentance and we believed that Christ died for us to redeem us from the bondage of sin. Because we are in Christ the old self was crucified with Christ and a new man came to life. So, we love Him because He loved us first, meaning we responded to His call and to His love with faith, with repentance and with continual love by being submitted to His will which He has revealed in His Word. So, if we responded freely to His call to repentance and faith in order to come to salvation, we can also freely love Him and we do it because it is His commandment to love Him, because HE is the One who initiated this relationship. If we weren't free to respond to His commandment, then our love would not be genuine. If He MADE US love Him, without us having any say in it, then it would not be us loving Him but rather it would be Him loving Himself through us. That would make His commandment to us to love Him pointless and it would also make God the greatest narcissist in all of existence. That would be Richard Dawkins's god.
If we don't have free will our love is worthless,our faith means nothing. Our prayers are not sincere. Our charity is pointless. Then all I could say is that God made me do it. I'm not to blame. I didn't want to do evil but God had already declared it so what choice did I have but to do it. Calvinism is evil.
White has mocked Dr Flowers as not being a “real” Dr, and so forth. It’s funny how uncharitable White is. He just represents this cartoonish amalgamation and caricature of every interaction I’ve had with some Calvinist. Like, every cocky, self assured Calvinist I’ve dealt with draws from this collection of least enjoyable Calvinistic traits.
Oh my goodness...this is so scary. We are not accountable for our actions because everything we do is "determined". What a crafty way to feel comforted with your decisions. Ugh. Come, Lord Jesus!
A member of my aunt's Calvinist church justified his marital affairs with determinism. I know most Calvinists would not do that. But Calvinism leaves the door wide open for it. Scripture does not.
@@dver89 The only way a Calvinist would not do the same as your friend's ex is by denying determinism. If a Calvinist believes that we should take comfort in God causing us to trust in Him without consent, they will also have to take comfort in God causing us to have an affair, be addicted to drugs, have cancer, or even commit murder or rape. Calvinism is so disgusting that it's equivalent to swallowing dung. The only way to become a Calvinist is to willingly swallow it...we are what we FREELY EAT! Genesis 2:16 “And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest FREELY EAT:” Genesis 3:6 “And when the woman saw that the tree was GOOD FOR FOOD, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree TO BE DESIRED TO MAKE ONE WISE, she took of the fruit thereof, and DID EAT, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he DID EAT.” Romans 1:22 “Professing themselves to be wise, they BECAME FOOLS,” John 6 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man EAT of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. We ARE what we EAT! There are two servings to choose from. The wisdom of the world and you will become of the world, and the wisdom of God and you will become of God. Simple. 💌
Most Calvinists don’t take Calvinism to its logical conclusion, most are 3 point Tulips kind of a thing, and I’m thankful for that because Calvinisms logical conclusion is nihilism. Usually people won’t take it to its logical conclusion because deep down they believe and operate like they have free will and are responsible for their actions, but it’s a crazy reality of Calvinisms systematic. Moral relativism can even be reinserted into the equation because if everything is deterministic, then what you want, what you do, what you think is Gods will, not yours. Again, Calvinists don’t actually live life and think like that for the most part because everything from the soles of our feet to the top of our head and tips of our fingers, and everything around us tells us we live in a creation where we are granted a measure of free will and we are responsible for our actions. So, on Calvinism, people believing in their hearts and operating on the basis of a lie according to Calvin (that free will is real) is what in reality ultimately helps keeps people in line and civil. How slippery a slope to believe in a deterministic creation; I have no doubt when Calvin killed his theological rival, he most certainly felt it was the will of God. Anyhow people, including Calvinists live like they have free will. A friend of mine, who thankfully is logically consistent with his Calvinism, which makes for good conversation and debates, absolutely believes that determinism is what we live with. I asked him then what then does that mean when we go to heaven, are we going to be meticulously controlled by Gods sovereign will there too? He said yes. My jaw dropped. I said, wait, what’s the point of any of this, let alone heaven if all we are is meat puppets. To his credit he holds to this position. Philosophically, and more importantly, biblically, it makes absolutely no sense. But that’s fine. Talking with logically consistent Calvinists is actually nice because you can dig into the hard bits that less consistent Calvinists simply shy away from.
I keep coming back to this... Jesus said, "A house divided itself can not stand." Does God the Father decree it when someone blasphemes the Holy Spirit?
Why do Calvinists have to lie about their beliefs to defend them? Because when they are honest, people rightly reject their ideas as a smear of God, a vile and contemptible lie.
Where do Calvinists get the authority or right to speak out against evil if the god they worship decreed evil? How do you show empathy to someone suffering from disease if you believe God decreed that said person be afflicted with said disease? To feel sorry for that person is to imply that said disease should not have occurred, or that said disease is bad, but if God desired it to be so and decreed it, how could a Calvinist say otherwise?
In the same way that people would have sorrowed over Jesus being crucified and all the evil that was done to him in that even though God had predestined it to occur.
@@innovationhq8230 You miss the point. From the Calvinist view, the people who sorrowed of Jesus's death sorrowed in error for it was God who willed his suffering in death. They sorrowed because they believed that it should not* have happened. Likewise people who sorrow of evil in this world are equally in err, for it is God who decreed it and no man should dare disagree or imply that it should not have come to pass. You should not be in sorrow over God's sovereign decision that is rebellion in the heart.
@innovation HQ it baffles me that calvinists can't see the difference between GOD predestinating HIS OWN suffering and other things that HE predestinated and the eternal damnation of most of mankind with mankind having no chance to do other. This includes sin, such as child rape and torture and then the tortured child to hell afterward, lust , pride .. etc.. . Things the Bible explicitly tells us that GOD does not predetermine, things it plainly tells us that do not come from GOD . These calvinistic claims are blasphemous and are a corrupt portrayal of CHRIST our SAVIOR . GOD bless you
When you have an entire system of belief, based on one man's or thousands of men's philosophy, you have a cult. Listen to the language of Calvin. Rape murder whatever evil God did it. Actually, all the bad of the world comes from free will. God does not ordain sin.
It seems like some teachers are financially tied to the way they understand the Bible. Even if they know they’re wrong, they stick to their guns because that’s how they pay the bills
It's not always money. Pride is another major factor, and to be fair, is not limited to Calvinists and others with false beliefs as one with correct doctrine could also be caught in that trap. Highly regarded leaders within a system, such as James White, often have a towering arrogance about their own level of knowledge. For such individuals, to lose face and admit they were mistaken, even secretly to themselves, would be far more painful than to live in poverty.
If God brings about immoral and evil acts, how are we able to recognize it as immoral and evil if God hasn't already revealed to us that its immoral ? Therefore how does the Calvinist declare God's goodness?
DW: Excellent point! And this is what C.S. Lewis meant when he said: "If God’s moral judgement differs from ours so that our ‘black’ may be His ‘white’, we can mean nothing by calling Him good; for to say ‘God is good’, while asserting that His goodness is wholly other than ours, is really only to say ‘God is we know not what’. And an utterly unknown quality in God cannot give us moral grounds for loving or obeying Him. If He is not (in our sense) ‘good’ we shall obey, if at all, only through fear - and should be equally ready to obey an omnipotent Fiend."
Thank you Leighton. So many calvinists don't know this about Calvinism. I can't tell you how many four-point calvinist I know. The calvinist lies would be a lot less palatable if they would just come out front with this in the beginning. They have to deceive people into believing it, so they never come out with this at the first.
@@jeremiah5319 is this question begging incoming? I myself was 20. I humbled myself when God spoke to me and told me to repent. I decided God was right I am wrong and gave my life to Him. I humbled myself (which God calls us to do in scripture) and obeyed the conviction of the Holy Spirit after resisting (which we can do according to Stephen the martyr) Him for a couple years. God did not “make me believe”. We can choose humility even though other people do not and they resist the Holy Spirit. So yes I chose to be more humble than some of my peers.
@@thomasdaniel22 Only if your a Calvinist with the same confirmation bias. All JW does with Leighton is avoid his points and deflect with typical bad debate topics. The fundamental building blocks of a true doctrine should stand on their own. They should require unique Greek, assumption, other texts to be read in, forceful reading or a sudden refusal to take OT quotes back to the original text.
This is why I say Calvinism is a worldview not just a soteriology, because they have a noticeably different view of who God is than non-Calvinist does.
I think that’s what kept me from actually embracing Calvinism. It contradicts the character of God in such a way that I couldn’t really make sense of it.
Such a worldview is not divorced from atheists or spiritualists reading astrology charts. Even CRT has a degree of determinism built in, even if I agree with the thesis that racist laws came from a racist society and had a perverse influence on lives of minorities growing up. Here’s the funny part, even leaving Calvinism still leaves you engrained with the Calvinistic presupposition. Listen to Derek Webb carefully; you’ll notice that he still holds to the Calvinistic worldview, but concluded he was a reprobate.
@@lancesteinke3732 (Romans 11:1-2) I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he "FOREKNEW" (Romans 8:29) For whom he did "FOREKNOW" he also did predestinate to be CONFORMED to the IMAGE OF HIS SON (Ephesians 1:4-5) According as he hath "CHOSEN US" in him BEFORE the foundation of the world, that WE should be HOLY and without blame before him in love having "PREDESTINATED US" unto the "ADOPTION" of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will ☝️ Ethnic Israel is predestined - it's pretty simple
@@yeahboee (Romans 11:1-2) I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he "FOREKNEW" (Romans 8:29) For whom he did "FOREKNOW" he also did predestinate to be CONFORMED to the IMAGE OF HIS SON (Ephesians 1:4-5) According as he hath "CHOSEN US" in him BEFORE the foundation of the world, that WE should be HOLY and without blame before him in love having "PREDESTINATED US" unto the "ADOPTION" of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will ☝️ Ethnic Israel is predestined - it's pretty simple - it's what's written it's not another gospel
@@lesliewilliam3777 where and when does he say that. God’s election is in the entirety of scripture. We know not who they are so we freely offer the gospel to all! Only God can awaken a sinner. It’s His gift.
@@dfischer5878 Per definizioni, a Calvinist must believe that those in hell are there because God purposely DID NOT choose them (when he could plainly and easily have done so). By choosing you, and not me, for no reason other than God himself (especially any reason to do with the chosen person himself!), then, logically, God's choice CANNOT be anything but arbitrary. (It would make no logical sense to say God's choice is caused by something inside of God himself. If it were, rationally what would that be? Hence, the arbitrary nature of God's "choice" if he only willed some to be saved and others to perish.) Here's the Calvinist's dilemma: God wants all men to be saved but can't because not every man wants to be saved Vs God could save all men but won't because he does not want all men to be saved and thus only saves a few while allowing the many to perish. Which I ask, in the service of logic, follows Scripture the more faithfully (esp. "In the sight of God our saviour this is undoubtedly the right thing to pray for; for his purpose is that all men should be saved and come to realise the truth"): the former or the latter? My jibe, that you question, still stands: Look, God chose me but not you!
@@ethanmulvihill7177 In this display of arrogance and intellectual dishonesty you ignored the Calvinist dilemma. I'll repeat it (not that I expect an honest response): God wants all men to be saved but can't because not every man wants to be saved Vs God could save all men but won't because he does not want all men to be saved and thus only saves a few while allowing the many to perish.
In a few minutes, there will come along at least one Calvinist to state that Leighton does not understand calvinism and neither do we. Don't know how much clearer these calvinists leaders can make it, and by extension, they prove that there is no reason to worship their god.
DW: The Calvinist practice of evading and denying their own doctrine is well established. That is why Calvinism has a well earned reputation for having a language of DOUBLE-SPEAK. Jame's mind is so totally ensnared by that DOUBLE-SPEAK - that his mind is completely unable to discern it. His mind has become conditioned to not be able to think rationally.
calvinists constantly give God a bad name ... it's depressing to know their views land on unbelievers ears, and they shun The Lord b/c of how insanely unjust and perceived evil he is in that system.
Some years ago I read the novel "The Disappearance" by Philip Wylie, published in 1951. One of the minor characters is a clergyman who seems to have a rather negative view of God, who comes across as a deterministic tyrant. Neither the clergyman or God are mentioned much in the novel, but there was enough there to lead me to deduce that Mr. Wylie probably grew up under a harsh Calvinism that emphasized the sovereignty of God, without emphasizing His love. I looked at his Wikipedia entry, and it says that Mr. Wylie was the son of a Presbyterian minister--indeed. It's amazing how many people never grow out of the ideas about God that they're fed in childhood.
Calvinism isn't just horrible Theology, ( which, of course, it is) it is blasphemy against the very nature and character of God! As a result of examining Calvinism for the last 20 years or so, I can't think of even ONE good fruit that it has produced, NOT ONE!
Hey Leighton, for those of us de-converting in the context of a Calvinistic, reformed church (Presbyterian in my case), how should we navigate & think about church membership? Could be a good video topic.
Romans 9 argues that it’s not ethnic Israel. This is corporate election you are talking about. But the whole world is corporately elected according to the Bible, but not the whole world is saved, you missed the verses that state specific people being predestined.
@@casenswartz7278 When it says "they are not all Israel which are of Israel" in Romans 9 - it's speaking of people like the Herod's who were ruling over Israel in the times of Christ and Paul - the scriptures presented in my comment as well as the verses before Romans 9:6 make it clear that ethnic bloodline Israel is "elect" and "predestined" what's wrong with you (Isaiah 45:4) for Jacob my servants sake and ISRAEL mine "ELECT" (Romans 9:3-5) For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for MY BRETHREN, my kinsmen according to the "FLESH" who are ISRAELITES; to whom pertaineth the ADOPTION, and the GLORY, and the "COVENANTS" and the giving of the LAW, and the service of God, and the "PROMISES" whose are the fathers, and of WHOM AS CONCERNING THE "FLESH" CHRIST CAME
I love that Dr. Leighton's surname is Flowers which interestingly is what Calvinists and Armenianists subscribe to TULIP and DAISY respectively. I think you sir were "determined" by God to debunk these for us. Kidding aside, thank you for doing this and help us wrestle with these confusions! God bless you!
Spot on Leighton. To me, determinism reduces God's sovereignty, as it reduces him to a scriptwriter or filmmaker rather than a creator. And it makes a mockery of so many scriptures that talk about human choice and responsibility and accountability to God. Heartfelt appeals to repent and obey don't make any sense if we are robots.
@jokinghazard4022 the very purpose of this video is to point out that the Calvinist perspective, according to Calvin, White, and the other scholar I am not familiar with, is that God decreed every single thing that every single person does. Logically, that would mean that we are essentially robots, having been preprogrammed to do whatever God decreed for us to do. Is that not what Calvinism teaches? Are the 3 scholars mentioned in the video misrepresenting Calvinism in some way? What are your thoughts?
@Christopher Walls Hi Christopher, yes, exactly and well explained. I did use the word determinism, and when I listen to people who advocate that explain it, that is exactly what they are saying: every single thing, good or bad, has been pre ordained and predetermined by God. In which case, as Leighton Flowers often points out, you and I are obviously pre determined not to believe that! So, there is no need for anyone to argue with us!
@jokinghazard4022 Apparently Calvinism does have a set view on determinism, if John Calvin says that God predetermines all things that all people will ever do. It is a soteriological issue if the Calvinist says that people are predetermined by God to not be able to believe (not be saved), and other people are predetermined by God to not be able to not believe (be saved). That would be extremely pertinent to the doctrine of salvation (soteriology). The questions still stand: are the three scholars in the video misrepresenting Calvinism with their view of determinism? Is it not the Calvinistic view that God determines who will be saved? Is it not, then, also the Calvinistic view that God determines all other thoughts and deeds of a person? Finally, per the original comment, wouldn't that mean that we are essentially robots, doing only what God predetermined for us to do?
@jokinghazard4022 Now I'm confused at the purpose of your original response: "You really do not understand calvinism, we do not argue anything that would make humans robots." But your position is that God's omniscience and omnipotence demand determinism, where God has predetermined all of our actions, thus making us robots.
@jokinghazard We have to believe the scriptures as they are and live in the light of them, not a philosophical system. "They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal- something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind," Jeremiah 19:5 NIV "They have built also the high places of Baal to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind". KJV That in no way says God was the primary cause and predetermined their sin. It couldn't be clearer in ruling that out. "nor did it enter my mind." How do you reconcile ,"nor did it enter my mind " , with your statement, "God decreed everything that came to pass" ? How did God decree that they would burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal without commanding it, speaking it, or it entering His mind" ? How do you believe He did that, without maligning His character or contradicting His clear statement through the prophet?
The more I learn about Calvinism, the more I hate it. Shocking that so many people buy into this, and i sense there is a pride in their perceived election, even though they use the sovereignty of God to try and display humility. THIS IS ABSOLUTE INSANITY.
A single verse is enough to answer this... "And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin." Jeremiah 32:35
Hi Leighton, the one point in all you excellent talks is the fact the all the cults, Mormons, JWs etc have one major thing in common. They all follow the teaching of one person. It is surely the starting point in examining the teachings being put forward by Calvin. Look at the mans fruit
The fact that God is sovereign doesn't necessitate that He be a micromanager. This is just one of many reasons that Calvinist arguments do not carry weight with me.
Time-stamps: 5:02, 5:45 - Bignon’s view of determinism 6:20, 6:34 - Bignon is a leading scholar of Calvinism 7:10, 8:08 - John Calvin on God’s decree (Institutes of Christian Religion) 8:40 - James White’s view in a 2003 debate 9:53 - response
Time-stamp 8:10 - In John Calvin’s view, “… thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 5).
The entire point of Christianity is that we have sinned and so we are not worthy of entering paradise/heaven. So by doing one bad thing we are no longer good. So if God does one bad thing, how could he still be good? The entire point of Jesus' atonement for our sins is that he was never corrupted by sin. So he was the perfect sacrifice that didnt deserve what he got. But Jesus is God, so if God caused all the bad things, then Jesus caused all the bad things. So he would no longer be a perfect atonement for our sins.
So God can be responsible for rape, murder, and molestation, but not despair per James White at 9:50. Just out of curiosity, how are the people who were picked for hell from eternity past supposed to feel?
James 1:13 13. Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14. But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. 16. Do not err, my beloved brethren. 17. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. 18. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
13:20 ironically enough, that's basically the conclusion of Gnosticism. It's interesting at the beginning of this whole clip Leighton refers to the TikTok guy because White had recent discussion with. Of course White and Durbin destroyed his "arguments" but all I could think about the whole time is: on Calvinism God decreed his apostasy.
Calvinism historically descends from gnosticism. Augustine first taught a biblical predestination, election and free will. But late in life, around the time of his argument with Pelagius, he changed the doctrine into one that was like the doctrine of the Manichaean gnostics he'd belonged to for 9 years. Historical fact; see book by Dr. Ken Wilson. Maybe this explains why Jesus is the image of the invisible (biblical) God, but Calvinism's god looks a lot more like a ruthless, "thumbs down", Roman emperor. Spirits take advantage of opportunities, you know.
@@innovationhq8230 A random internet Aug-Gnostic describing a highly qualified scholar with a doctorate from Oxford as "not credible"? Hmm, I wonder which one has the better credentials and is therefore much more likely to be credible than the other...
I made this statement to my wife and daughter who are tired of my anti Calvin goggles talk any time we are discussing any theological perspectives etc... I guess in their opinion I am a clanging gong... My statement was that I will no longer fight against the theology of a dead man...but instead promote the theology of the Living God. Everyone seems to have their own understanding and often it will take the Holy Spirit to guide them in all truth AND their willingness to receive correction... 😇🙏💪
We all see and hear what we want to see and hear. It's a dangerous thing. May the LORD deliver us all from that fault and give us ears and eyes and hearts that seek only the truth!
I recommend reading the latter part of Irenaus' Against Heresies Book 2. He addresses the claim of some gnostics that some people are just born evil or born good. He, unlike most of his other rebuttals, answers with a call to being comfortable not knowing, just as some things in Scripture and the world are beyond our understanding, though we learn as much as we can. He also makes several statements that sound very non-Calvinistic, but to be fair, that could be just him not being precise but using his understanding of Scripture (as opposed to perhaps some other Christians somewhere). This is instructive, because Irenaeus is an early church father who, based on reading his book, is clearly immersed in Scripture. You would think that if Scripture was SO obvious and that the apostles all taught Calvinism then it would be a widespread belief and clearly taught by the early fathers, or at least some of them. Leighton has discussed this historical argument before. James White even has a clip of him saying that the early church fell into man centered theology early. I just don't think that is quite correct because a better argument needs to be made than that.
@@OnTheThirdDay God is going to be able to be heard through His Word or not.... if we believe that all Scripture is God breathed and useful for training as well as rebuke and His Word won't return void....why do we need or should desire to point to other literary works to bring us more truth or clarity? I'm not making an idol out of the Bible as I know that the Bible didn't bleed and die for my sins to be forgiven...yet it is Scripture that Jesus combatted satan with when tempted by satan to prove who He is by actions purposed by satan.... I think we tend to go through periods of finding our life in Christ and then instead of continuing with the Comforter we sometimes find comfort in the denominational think tanks that will rest in their camps...meanwhile neglecting the sanctification process where we grow more Christlike in our faith without trying to usurp His authority... John the Baptist was okay with being the "Lesser" when some of his disciples moved forward with Jesus.... We should all be about that Gospel life and letting the One that paid for us in full be allowed access to this vessel that is no longer ours...but His...are we doing what we are told to? Death to the carnal "old nature" ....daily if need be? The old nature wants to continue to rule and reign in the vessel it was once in control of...I believe this is the "thorn in the flesh" Paul spoke of.... Anyways...just got out of church and in between services and gonna get back into God's Word. God's Only Son Permits Eternal Life! 😇🙏💪
@@mrupholsteryman Ok, thanks. I am sure that you have listened to sermons or read a book about the Bible. That is how I view the church fathers, except they have the benefit of having had their pastors either be the Disciples or disciples of Christ who learned from the Disciples. Irenaeus heard Polycarp preach. Polycarp was a student of John. I don't place him above Scripture but as a pastor of the flock that God chose during very early and tumultuous times for the Church.
I'm no scholar but when the bible says "Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter" ISAIAH 5:20 That alone, for me, collapses this belief of "determinism" because God does not contradict himself, and ever will. Because if he purposely decreed or determined an evil act, only to bring good from it, how is that any different from those evil in the world, who intentionally create evil problems, just so they can offer the solution for the calamity they've caused to look like the hero, and the one who is good, to receive praise? That screams out a God who is unstable in all his ways, and doesn't demonstrate the God of the bible, and his true nature, that I've come to know and understand. I believe absolutely, that because we have free will, that WHEN someone commits an evil act, that God can take that awful situation and turn it into good, for HIS glory, to demonstrate to us his nature. But I do not believe that he would purposely be the one who puppeteered the person into doing the evil act in order to glorify himself that way, that does not honour who God is, and how big he is. I like Dr James White, as he has a lot of sound scripture teachings, but this right here with his Calvanism belief and view, I'll have to respectfully pass on.
Bryson: But to blame God, which is what a decree does, to blame God for the rape of a child is a horrible attack on the very character and love of God! This sums it all up for me. James 1:13 “God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one."‘ I used to be a confused believer because of this Calvinism and Armenianism debate. I couldn't completely agree on either side but there are some things I agree on both sides. What I learned is that, it doesn't have to be an OR it can be God's responsibility AND man's responsibility!
Jesus put to bed the whole does God decree evil. Matthew 6:13 KJV *_And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil:_* For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Many heresies occur because people can’t wrap their minds around paradoxes. God’s ways are not our ways, and so some struggle with faith/works, free will/predestination, etc. None of this is hard for God. Calvinism is heresy.
Could it be that Calvinists define "moral evil" as only "creatures disobeying God's revealed commandments" and nothing more, completely ignoring the question of trying to understand why God commands certain things and forbids others? In declaring God's will incomprehensible, do they give up on knowing God's character that motivates his commandments? I'm trying to understand this cognitive defect.
@cdr 777 I’d have to say we day and wonder the same. I’m not a scholar just a student of the book. I fought against the doctrines of grace for years. Once I removed the presupposition I was approaching scripture with the veil was lifted and the reformed teachings taught as it is in scripture.
The problem with Calvinism is that the doctrine was created by a psychopath. Do a study on John Calvin, and he followed the methods of the Roman Catholic Church. Yet Calvin was an outcast of Catholicism. He was expelled due to his doctrine from Cathloic seminary. He murdered his friend for disagreements with his teaching. All tallied fifty-five people were dragged from their homes,while their family watched and burned at the stake. Some will say we'll he did not do it himself. No He ordered their death because he ruled the religion of Geneva. Some say he had a gre😢at part in the Reformation. He plagiarized Augustines work and incorporated it in his doctrines, and made notes to go into the Geneva Bible. These notes were problematic because they promoted another Gospel. King James did not ban the Geneva Bible, nor did he punish those who read it. King James banned the printing of the Geneva Bible, yet the Puritians held on to Calvin's notes, and believed America was promised to them, and burning along with murder of Native people was destiny, after the Natives saved thir lives of course. The Salem witch trials were also inspired by some ignorant people who thought a birthmark or accusations were evidence to burn women at the stake. When I watch Calvinest discernment clips that are filled with lies and snippets out of context I know where they found the inspiration to slander anyone who is not Calvinest
Totally depraved does not mean to our full capacity. It means our desires are tainted by our sin nature. God restrains the evil in the world keeping us from being totally consumed by evil. You know the God who is in total control and not relying on man to help Him achieve His goals.
"Totally depraved does not mean to our full capacity. It means our desires are tainted by our sin nature." Just about any Christian would agree that our desires are "tainted". Your system teaches that humanity is completely, totally unable to apprehend the things of God without God's direct intervention. That is contradicted by Paul's sermon in Athens in Acts 17 and Romans 1. Calvinism always hedges by saying "we aren't as bad as we could be" which is another version of your "total doesn't mean full capacity", which is another instance of Calvinist redefinition.
@DFischer Actually, Calvinism's Total Depravity does indeed teach that mankind is completely and utterly depraved to the point that not only does mankind have no desire to seek out God, but actually cannot due to the depths of their depravity. Besides, the definition of Total Depravity is a moot point given the Deterministic Will of God and how Calvinists define the Sovereignty of God as being meticulous control over every aspect of creation, no matter how small. R.C. Sproul once said that if there was even a single rogue molecule, then God is not sovereign. Given that definition, Mankind isn't Totally Depraved, nor can they be Totally Depraved, because no one can act outside the will of God. This means that the thoughts, behaviors, and actions defined under Total Depravity actually come from God himself, which means that mankind is in complete obedience to God's will. Calvinism shoots itself with Determinism.
The first person He revealed Himself as "the Way" to the Father was to the woman at the well. Yeah...nah! Not a bigot And Paul said, "Youre all sons", elevating women with the men as equal in the eyes of God.
Two women were the first witnesses to the resurrection of Jesus, in a time Josephus described “women as being worth half a man, and their testimony not to be trusted”. Calling Jesus a bigot because he referred to his own mother as “woman” shows a level of historical ignorance and contextual understanding of a redditor who is a regular on /r/atheism.
@@martytu20 So true! Jesus was just using common vernacular of the time. The problem today, as I see it, is that (so called) Christians have used Scripture to validate mistreating/abusing women. Kind of the same issue with all the killing in the Name of God, ie: the Crusades for example. There's plenty of material anti-theists (which is a better descriptiin) can draw from, claiming just the opposite of what Scripture actually says. They don't (want to) separate the true signal from the noise. And those who aren't anti-theist per se, but are non- believers hear all these things and think that that is true Christianity. I find this very frustrating. But Jesus being a bigot is patently absurd.
Don’t know if you’ve ever thought of this Leighton, I’m sure you have, but if God determines every single thing that happens, that means anything and everything you do is the will of God which effectively makes your will and desires equal to Gods will and desires, effectively making you in some sense God. Literally every choice, thought and action you do becomes the will of god. It’s kind of sickening to think about. I can do anything I want without restraint and turn right around and say god made me do it, because I am only capable of doing gods will. This type of thinking is what you see in people with psychosis, they literally believe they are god, a Calvinist would never claim to be god but their system teaches every action or thought is the same as gods because god caused you to do or have it and you can do nothing but what god has willed. Extremely sick belief system.
It’s very prideful. The whole “I’m chosen and you’re not” is the exactly the kind of pride we see that God is against over and over again in the Bible, among those who have completely missed the point of who God is and what his message is. With Calvinism, we’re once again seeing the same pride that God calls out continually in both the OT and NT. The Jews prideful they’re picked. Then Paul addressing the pride of the Gentiles feeling they’re picked. Now Calvinists feeling they’re picked. All totally missing the point. No one was picked fir salvation, but picked to carry God’s message to the world. It’s just such a sophomoric and anti biblical theology.
@@rmike298 I know I'm considered one of God's generals, but it's all for his glory and his namesake, I counter it with childlike faith I have fun with it.
@@rmike298 moreover the logical conclusion of Calvinist views will logically lead you to pride and sectarianism.. They like to accuse non Calvinist people of pride yet they're the guilty of not owning their position and deflection.
Let's follow their illogical conclusion. How dare you say sin is wrong, God decreed that we all sin! God sits in Heaven and does as He wills! Why must Jesus die for our sins if Jesus is the one predetermining us to sin?
God does not even tempt men to sin, let alone cause evil. Matthew 6:13 KJV *_And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil:_* For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Does James White honestly not notice that all this time, Leighton is simply presenting what consistent Calvinism would sound like? James makes one large presupposition there; He assumes that either God brought about evil things because of a determined decree OR God brought about evil things but with no purpose. Calvinism IS Theistic Determinism, if you are going to be consistent with your Calvinism, then you have to adopt Theistic Determinism, which presupposes that God decrees evil. But, Traditional Christianity has always argued that neither are true. But, God has sown the field with wheat, and His angels came to Him and said "there are thorns growing in the field" and He said to them "an enemy has done this..." Traditional Christianity has always understood that God is not tempted nor does He temp anyone, that God is not the author of evil, but in His rightful rule, sovereignty and providence, He uses all things for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. I will not accept the man-made philosophy of Calvinism which is an extra-biblical form of theistic determinism not coming from scripture.
Decreeing moral wrong and allowing moral wrong are two different things. All moral wrong will face justice at some point, therefore one is wise to accept that justice that was meted out on Jesus Christ.
@@danstone8783 Acts 2:23 seems to say differently. Talking about the crucifixion it says that Jesus was "Delivered up according to the PREDETERMINED plan of God." Other translations says that Jesus was crucified according to the "DEFINITE plan of God. The Romans were clearly sinning and doing moral wrong when they killed Jesus. And this verse seems to say that this was predetermined by God, that it was God's plan before the foundation of the world for Jesus to be crucified.
Imagine this: It's 1795 and a delegation from these (13) United States goes to England to ask George III to resume reigning the US as king over the colonies. Can we do a mulligan? The policies of George Washington were so odious that, after his death, his cadaver is exhumed, given a "proper beheading," and thrown on a dung pile. Thus, after a decade of republic, we repudiate our decision to abolish the monarchy here and wish it re-established over us. With apologies to Washington for the unflattering caricature used for illustration, that gives you and idea of Britain from late 1640s to early 1660s and the protectorate of Oliver Cromwell from 1653 to 1658 as well as Britain's national repentance after abolishing the monarchy! Churchill criticizes the Cromwell dictatorship as lowering the British quality of life beyond anything before or since. When Calvinists are in charge, they don't play nice. We've heard about this with the Massachusetts puritans, the English did puritanism on steroids!
I love these shorter videos. I usually don't have the time to watch the ones that go over 30 minutes, and I never can watch the ones that go over an hour.
James white knows that you've got him beat scripturally and therefore is to much of a coward to come on your show to have a brotherly bibl8cal discussion. It fill me with anger to hear Jim lie about GOD , saying that HE predetermines the rape and murder of children, making HIM the cause of sin and the lust that fuels it . GOD bless you brother Leighton. Thank you
@innovation HQ why don't you just answer the long standing question my friend ? Why won't White come on Leighton's show and have a l9ving brotherly discussion ? It's clear to see that WHITE isn't a loving brother and it's also clear how ridiculous White behaves in debates . Why not just have a discussion where they can get right down to the nitty gritty of it but in a loving way ? We're searching for truth, not to see who can bob and weave through a debate like White always does when debating sotierology . Don't get me wrong, I love to watch White destroy Muslims , atheist, JW'S , etc.. but this should be a brotherly discussion, don't you agree ?
Dr Flowers, you can make (provide) into an acrostic for a flower (orchids) as follows with minimal changes: O - Open Door (O) R - Responsible (R) C - Christ's Atonement (V) H - Heaven/eternal life (E) I - Illuminating Grace (I) D - Destroyed (D) S - Sin (P) Keep it up -- a brother in Christ
Everyone agrees that God allows, evil and sin to take place. But the question is does God cause evil and sin to take place? Or does God predetermine that it will happen?
@@deespence8629 How do you interpret Acts 2:23? Talking about the crucifixion of Jesus it says that Jesus was crucified "According to the PREDETERMINED plan of God." Other translations say that Jesus was murdered according to the DEFINITE PLAN of God. You said that God doesn't predetermine evil or sin, but the crucifixion of Jesus was one of the most evil acts to have happened. The Romans were clearly sinning when they killed Jesus. And this was predetermined to take place before the foundation of the world.
@@rpvideos4118 I did not make myself clear- I was not speaking of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I assumed we were speaking of fallen man… of course God had a plan before the foundation of the world and He knew mankind would fall. So yes He predetermined that Jesus would take on the sin of the world and the horrific death we all deserve! But praise Jesus- He made a way for us to the Father❤️✝️🙏
@@deespence8629 I agree that God predetermined that Jesus would save the world. But you said that God doesn't predetermine sin. But the Romans were sinning. So that is just one example where God does foreordain and predetermine sin to take place. What about the Flood then? Did it surprise God when the flood came and killed everyone on earth except the people on the Ark? Or did God predetermine that many would die? Before the world was created God also knew about all of the wars that were going to take place, are you saying that God did not predestine these things to take place?
I applaud your tireless efforts to respond to White - even though it's never going to convince him or any other committed "5-pointer" to admit the rediculousness of determinism. Like Sisyphus, you will never get that rock to the top of the hill.
So, the Calvinists don't believe their own doctrine. Which suggests that they're in it for the money. Or maybe they just like making people miserable. Sounds legit.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Calvinism in all of its tenants are supported by philosophical assumptions, not the plain word of God. Nearly every time James white opens his mouth he talks in circles and ends up saying Calvin ism must be true because... philosophy.
Paul’s epistle to the Colossians addresses all such deliberate attempts to make the gospel seem complex or ostentatious. Of all the apostles, the Holy Spirit chose Paul, the profound scholar, to defend the gospel’s simplicity against any hint of academic elitism or philosophical gentrification. This is McAuthor's statement in one of his books on Paul. Yet what Calvinists do, is make it complicated. Got to know Greek and Hebrew to get it right. That way you can preach another Gospel.
There's a reason why Jesus told us to pray to the Father that "thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven." In Heaven his will is done absolutely, on the earth not so much. If God's will was done on earth absolutely, or as decreed, why would we have to pray in that fashion?
I'm an incest and rape victim, this is what makes me hate the God of Calvinism! I know it's the devil not God in heaven. Because the God in heaven does not determine evil, but God does have foreknowledge of evil, He can redeem and turn evil to good. It's not foreknowledge if you can only know it if you ordained it.
The God of the Bible is Holy, Righteous, and PERFECT. He does not want people to sin, nor does He cause them to sin. In fact, it would not be sin if God causes it. It would simply be His will being accomplished. How can there be any sin if God's will is always being done in EVERY situation, ALL of the time? Calvinism fails because it doesn't grasp that God is 100 percent sovereign, and in His complete sovereignty, He chooses to give humans some degree of free will to choose to accept or reject Christ, to say yes or no to God's commandments, to be obedient or not. That's why scripture says over and over things like, "Whosover will..and choose you this day...and repent...and lean not on your own understanding...and preach the gospel to the whole world.
IF God's will is always being done, an awful lot of evil is being done by God: I don't believe it for one second. God won't tell us not to sin and then make us sin, not the God of the Bible, and not the God I worship and love.
White is not a Christian apologist. White is an apologist for Calvinist soteriology. John Calvin is his God, because he interprets what God has said through the screen of what Calvin says, not what God says. Whoever's word is your truth, that is your God.
Its so strange. My old home church was pastored by calvinists, but they didnt preach calvinism much at all. My pastor made sure to present the Gospel at the end of each service, and I always wondered how he squared that circle, but he's still my brother in Christ.
Some Calvinists (the ones who are Christians first and Calvinists second) do contradict their own beliefs and sincerely preach the true Gospel, either ignoring or shrugging off the inconsistencies that it creates. Charles Spurgeon was such a Calvinist, despite the quote of his that internet Calvinists like to quote like it's some kind of Bible verse about Calvinism being the Gospel, he also noted the conflict between Calvinism and Biblical teaching and sided firmly with the Bible on the issue.
The weight of Scripture declaring God's holiness, goodness, kindness, mercy, love and inability to do evil is so overwhelming that it is inconceivable to me how any Christian can profess that the LORD of the Bible who created all things is the author of sin and evil. Sorry, their Calvi-god is a little "g" god. My God is the great, I AM!|
God does decree evil in that He chooses when to allow His creatures to do evil, to accomplish His purposes. He’s not BEHIND the evil choices of men, but he is OVER those choices.
How anyone can take James White seriously is beyond me. No reason for despair, James? God causes the rape of a child (And also predestined most for hell) But there's no reason for despair! This is so far removed from sounding like anything in the Bible it's insane.
Just because God allows evil doesn’t mean he wills it. God allowed David to commit adultery and murder but he didn’t make David do it. God also allowed Jesus the opportunity to sin by allowing Satan to tempt him but Jesus instead overcame those temptations and conquered Satan and death.
I hear James White and I just want to ask his listeners if they hear the fruit of the Spirit and a person living out the principles of 1 John in his tone and way of speaking. Where is the love? Where is the joy of the Lord? It is one of the rarest things ever for me to hear someone who identifies as a Calvinist have any hint of joy in the sound of their voice.
Precisely! The relationship most internet Calvinists and leading Calvinist preachers have toward their badly distorted view of God is that of toadies to a bully rather than redeemed prodigal sons and daughters to a loving, forgiving Father.
Always has been. This world has simply replaced God with Government. Working on the sabbath and eating pigs used to be wrong. Now it isn't. Because Right and Wrong is whatever God says.
@@thomasdaniel22 Nice try! You're intentionally using a linguistically obsolete translation in an attempt to exploit 4 centuries of changes to the English language and pretending the text says something it doesn't. That's on the same level as implying that the old Christmas song "Deck the Halls" is encouraging people to dress up in rainbow clothes and attend a pride parade based on the line "Don we now our gay apparel". The verse is clearly referring to "calamity/disaster/misfortune", not to moral wrongdoing. Here is the same verse in several examples of more 21st Century-accurate English: NKJV: "If a trumpet is blown in a city, will not the people be afraid? If there is calamity in a city, will not the Lord have done it?" NIV: "When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it?" ESV: "Is a trumpet blown in a city, and the people are not afraid? Does disaster come to a city, unless the Lord has done it?" NASV: "If a trumpet is blown in a city, will the people not tremble? If a disaster occurs in a city, has the Lord not brought it about?" Orthodox Jewish Bible: "Shall a shofar be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? Shall there be disaster in a city, and Hashem hath not caused it?"
@@thomasdaniel22 That's a bifurcation fallacy. You're implying that the only choices are "bringing disaster on someone is never morally evil" and "bringing disaster on someone is always morally evil", when in fact the correct fact is that bringing disaster on someone may or may not be morally evil, depending on who is doing so and for what reason. I "undercut" nothing but your satanic tactics of telling blasphemous lies and deliberate deceptions about God supposedly committing moral evils against people.
It is AMAZING to see how James White can't seem to understand that you are presenting what a Calvinistic conclusion would be. Does he honestly not even realize that those are tongue-in-cheek representations? Calvinism's determinism basically HAS to say exactly what the letter of James says not to do: "No one is to say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone." (Unless you stick to your determinism: because then God IS determining for you to be tempted, even if you concede that God isn't directly tempting.) Pretty sure James would be shaking his head and disappointed that you can't seem to understand his letter.
If you believe in Calvinistic determinism then you have no right to have a issue with anything anyone says or does. Just keep your mouth shut for you are now finding fault with the work of God.
Calvin's thoughts and that of Bignon, are simply put, absurd, self-defeating, blasphemous (as Wesley declared) and seem to even border on a kind of theological insanity.
"Sometimes a view doesn't need to be refuted. Sometimes it just needs to be clearly stated/explained."
How very true.
This is the second best reason to reject Calvinism after the Scriptures (in context) themselves.
I've concluded that the second best path to rejecting Calvinism is simply to understand it.
Nah the best way is to avoid it. If it causes uncertainty in your spirit that's a sign you should flee. Don't even look into it just flee.
@@reynaldodavid2913Jo that all events are predetermined or pre-ordained. True to a degree, but free will is the flesh the sin nature, meaning you can't fulfill the lords commands by your own free will without gods encouragement. So determinism is a philosophical phrase that says something is in control of all outcomes and possibilities in the calvanist case God, but the issue with the calvanist tulip 5 points is they claim gods only Sovereign towards the elect that's pride so their whole 5 points are utterly meaningless and promotes legalism and a sense of spiritual pride that is not just dangerous but blasphemous.
Very well said, Jacob!
@@reynaldodavid2913Jo Aha.
But even if I explain Determinism to you, you won't believe it or understand it unless you've been Determined to do so...
Determinism is basically just Fatalism by another name. In essence, it is the belief that all things which come to pass were decided and ordained from the beginning of reality.
In Calvinism, the one who Ordains all things is God.
Interestingly enough, Atheists also believe in Determinism, but they believe that the Ordaining factor is Science.
@@GhostBearCommander atheistic determinism is explained as cause and effect with the the first cause being the original mover. how are you just gonna say science?
The fact that somebody bases their thinking on the teachings of a man that came 1500 years after the birth of Jesus, rather than on Jesus Himself, should set the alarm bells ringing.
God sends his ministers and prophets throughout all ages. Sometimes more public. Augustine, Calvin, Owen these were public ministers. HUNDREDS more whose names you've never heard because persecuted by the Pharisees during their day.
James White: "God decreed it, so He is not responsible. If He didn't decree it, then He would be responsible." What kind of twisted and boneheaded logic is that???
Generalissimo Blanco and his feared rhetoric cannon fired by cognitive dissonance.
James White reminds me a lot of an old Loony Tunes cartoon character called "Elmer Fuddstone" (a caveman version of Elmer Fudd who hunted the "saber-toothed wabbit", aka Bugs Bunny with much longer front teeth). Elmer Fuddstone was smart enough, in the stone age, to invent gunpowder just from having it suggested to him, but was dumb enough to take the "saber-toothed wabbit's" advice on which way to have the gun barrel point, so that he would hit himself rather than his target when he shot the gun. In the same way, James White is smart enough to work his way to the top of the pecking order of the Calvinistic wing of the Baptists, but dumb enough to hold laughably illogical positions like the one you quoted above...
Exactly right... sometimes you have to right these things out to see how absurd it is.
His argument is something like:
1. Evil only has purpose and meaning if God causes it to happen.
2. God causes evil.
Therefore evil has purpose and meaning.
I deny both premises.
@@martytu20 I like what you did there! Allow me to elaborate on it: "Generalissimo Blanco, Commander of the Strawman army of the West, packs all of his fallacious artillery shells with the powder of cognitive dissonance and lobs his ludicrous munitions at imaginary targets in the fog."
@@garyleemusic Seems like circular reasoning: Evil can only have a purpose if God decrees it -> assumes that men cannot have purposes for committing evil acts --> assumes that God decrees evil acts.
Mr. White comes across cocky and condescending.
All calvinist do
He does. It’s intellectual pride.
I must say, his mannerisms are also effeminate.
@@orlando9923 All or are you using hyperbole?
@@OvercomeComeOver Very judge mental. Doesn’t the Bible teach us to not judge off appearances?
“God, PLEASE stop determining Leighton to make me look like a half wit” James White.
💯
Wow! I praise GOD who gave you a sense of humor, and I despise White not for his nature, but for his apparent total depravity which he has reached through his communion with his demons.
@@joshualeibrant3443
Romans 11:1-2) I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
God hath not cast away his people which he "FOREKNEW"
(Romans 8:29) For whom he did "FOREKNOW" he also did predestinate to be CONFORMED to the IMAGE OF HIS SON
(Ephesians 1:4-5) According as he hath "CHOSEN US" in him BEFORE the foundation of the world, that WE should be HOLY and without blame before him in love having "PREDESTINATED US" unto the "ADOPTION" of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will
☝️ Ethnic Israel is predestined - it's pretty simple
@@isaiah345-6 "We are all GOD's offspring" Paul told the pagan Athenians. You do not know the word behind "adoption" is literally "son placed" which is where a natural son of his father was placed in position to receive his inheritance? What, do you believe that the devil creates sons for himself? You then believe in two creators do ya now?
@@joshualeibrant3443 Just a heads-up: "True Gospel" is one of the many accounts made by a troll I call CWN (short for "Cricket-Worshiping Nimrod") due to his frequent use of the word "Crickets" as a reply when he's called on his garbage, and once used it as a reply when another poster asked who his god was, and due to the fact that he, like the Biblical Nimrod, is a son of Cush who tried to usurp the power/identity of God's people (as he is one of the self-described "Hebrew Israelite" cultists). I suggest ignoring him.
The mental gymnastics required for believing Calvinism is bonkers
@@jibblecain that’s not what that means. It’s narrow because it’s only Jesus, not some obscure path. Thank God theological precision isn’t required to be saved. I guarantee you you’ve got a lot wrong with your theology just as Calvinists do.
@@florida8953
SALVATION IS ETHNIC ISRAEL BEING SAVED FROM THEIR ENEMIES
(Luke 1:68-72) Blessed be the Lord God of ISRAEL; for he hath visited and redeemed HIS PEOPLE and hath raised up an horn of "SALVATION" for "US" that WE should be SAVED from OUR "ENEMIES", and from the hand of all that HATE "US" to perform the mercy promised to OUR FATHERS, and to remember his holy COVENANT
LIST OF ETHNICITIES THAT HATE GOD
(Psalm 83:1-8) hold not thy peace, and be not still, O God For, lo, THINE ENEMIES make a tumult: and THEY that HATE THEE have lifted up the head They have taken crafty counsel against THY PEOPLE, and consulted against thy hidden ones. They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance the tabernacles of
E. D. O. M and the Ishmaelites; of Moab, and the Hagarenes Gebal, and Ammon, and Amalek; the Philistines with the inhabitants of Tyre;
Assur also is joined with them: they have holpen the children of Lot. Selah
Because Calvinism is heretical.
Completely agree. Best, concise description of it, 'bonkers'
@@florida8953 but also, they’re correct because plenty of professing Christians never find the real gate. They follow a Jesus of their own making instead
I don't believe I can be more loving than my God. I can't believe that people admit "this is evil" but it's ok because it's God doing it.
With all the overwhelming mercy and loving kindness you can read in passage after passage in the Bible, with the very gift of His Son and then to say "oh but just for the elect." Nobody else actually had a chance.
I believe in the justice of God and the coming judgement. I admit there are parts of the Bible I don't really understand.
But I will trust in God's love, keep studying His Word and pray to become more conformed to the likeness of Jesus.
🙌
When I was in the Jehovah's Witnesses cult..... occasionally people would say to me "Do you realize your in a cult".... I absolutely REJECTED that accusation BUT when I read the Bible without the lens of being in a cult.... it was only then that I saw scripture in a clear view.....this channel helped me significantly as reading through all the comments as well. The Calvinist remind me of a cult, they seem to follow the teachings of John Calvin instead of Jesus Christ. Reading in context matters!!!!! I've had to learn that myself. ❤
They seem to follow the teachings of John Calvin instead of Jesus Christ.
Exactly! Calvinism isn't Christianity! And so does the other isms in there! I believe God left some things hard to understand so that we leave room for faith and walk with Christ even with the confusion so that we don't put Him in a box and say "I have it all figured out! I have contained Christ in TULIP/DAISY!".
I believe God designed it so that we also have room to exercise love and humility!
Calvinism is many-faceted, ranging from sincere Christians who have bad doctrine when it comes to soteriology to all-out JW-grade cultists. Unlike the JWs, though, the extremist Calvinists' cult leaders aren't a living group of rich guys getting fat off those they have deceived, but a bunch of long-dead thinkers, philosophers and theologians that I refer to as DCPs (short for "dead Calvinists on Pedestals", with examples including the likes of Jonathan Edwards, Charles Spurgeon, JW Pink, RC Sproul, and, of course, John Calvin himself) whose teachings these Calvinists idealize to the point that if you dispute them, they act like you're disputing the Bible itself.
@@barryclevenger7456 False! Calvin created a system based primarily on Augustine's Manichean Gnostic blasphemies that falsely attributed aspects of pagan Greek gods to the Christian God and ripped bits and pieces of Paul's teachings completely out of their original context, redefined multiple words Paul used to mean something entirely different, and used the bits and pieces to "support" his false and demonic doctrines. He was hardly the first to do so, as Peter warned of false teachers in his time doing the same thing: "consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation-as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures." (2 Peter 3:15-16)
@@barryclevenger7456 clear as mud.
@@barryclevenger7456 Wrong again! Augustine initially converted to Christianity from Manicheanism, but when he got into his dispute with Pelagius, he went back to his Manichean roots and borrowed several false teachings from it, including the idea that guilt for wrongdoing could be passed from ancestors to descendants (which blatantly contradicts many Scriptures, notably Ezekiel Chapter 18), the idea that humans are born with a "sin nature", and the idea that God has a feeble, insecure "sovereignty" like that of the pagan Greek gods, that depends on micromanaging every atom of creation. Augustine then "re-packaged" these false teachings in a "Christian" tone, using out-of-context Bible verses to falsely support them. Pelagius never taught the things Augustine falsely accused him of teaching. The only doctrine Pelagius actually taught that was considered "unorthodox" was his emphasis that the rich needed to give all or most of their earthly possessions to the poor. Augustine tried and failed not once, but twice, to have Pelagius convicted of heresies by Church councils. The Bishop of Rome of the day even reprimanded Augustine for his treatment of Pelagius, though Honorius, one of the last and weakest western Roman Emperors, was a great admirer of Augustine and forced the Bishop of Rome to withdraw his reprimand. Augustine and his cronies then held their own council, made up an imaginary "heresy" that supposedly taught 14 doctrines, and called it "Pelagianism" out of sheer spite. Pelagius only partially agreed with one point out of the 14 and completely rejected the rest. This slander was widely successful at the time due to Augustine's popularity within the church of the day, but has been exposed. As for Arminius, he didn't take anything from Pelagius' teachings, real or imagined. Instead, he took John Calvin's teachings and tried to soften them up, while still remaining a devout Calvinist, and Augustinian, his entire life. It was only years after Arminius' death that the mainstream Calvinists held the Synod of Dort to address his teachings, which they chose to reject utterly in favor of "doubling down" on the more odious of Calvin's heresies.
I’m a Calvinist and I’m starting to doubt it. Limited atonement is more philosophical than biblical.
You're right my friend and there's not a single explicit passage to back it up but there's so very many explicit full atonement passages that make it known by GOD that CHRIST truly died for all like HE said that HE came to do . CHRIST wouldn't tell HIS apostles to go into the whole world and preach the gospel to EVERY CREATURE if the HIS gospel wasn't for every creature.
GOD bless you and I hope that you do come out of calvinism brother because when held in contrast to scripture it is blasphemy against the very character of GOD .
Keep doubting, please!!!
You are pretty much right.
Keep searching the scriptures and keep praying for wisdom. The atonement is what broke the first chain for me too! God is light and in him there is no darkness at all.
I hate to break it to you, but you're going to find that limited atonement is not going to be the only thing you're going to be doubting about calvinism. You will be doubting all five points of TULIP because you'll find that it is not biblical.
Depravity is biblical, not total depravity.
Election is biblical, not unconditional election.
Atonement is biblical, not limited atonement.
Grace is biblical, not irresistible grace.
The saints is biblical, not perseverance of the saints.
You'll find that calvinism just hyperliteralizes the text, by eisegeting one passage into another, when both passages have nothing to do with each other. That's because calvinism literally redefines every single biblical term there is in order to avoid having their doctrine contradicted. It's a false doctrine, pure and simple.
James White said, “There is no reason for despair.” Calvinism itself is a System of despair.
Thank you for your work. You are a good and faithful brother, Leighton.
and God ordained some Christians to despair ... so they have no choice
Amen. The bottom line is, you could call on the name of The Lord for salvation, putting your whole trust on his finished work on the cross but never know if you are saved because their god may have determined for you to be deceived and determined your destination, hell. That is despair.
@@dirtyburd71yeah considering the holy spirits hiding nature, I never sense the presence of God when I see a calvanist speaker or teacher and that makes me uncertain and nervous. They're like the pharisees thinking they can police gods spiritual gifts well when you do that it ends up with them blaspheming the holy spirit. You can't hide what's inside, God is always right. Like new age making a false Jesus in their head, Calvanism like any other legalistic religious doctrine paints a false image of God. Might as well be Muslim then.
@@dirtyburd71 yes and not only this, but ironically when they employ their favorite strawman argument (aka the whole "you can claim credit" bit) they deny themselves the one thing that anchors a person's assurance of salvation to reality. Namely, that you met God's condition for forgiveness.
@@dirtyburd71 THANK YOU, for proving that you do NOT understand Calvinism/the reformed position. God isn’t going to trick you. If you’ve come to Christ, believed in Christ, trusted in Christ, then you are saved. You can’t even come to Christ unless the Father has drawn you to Him, and He will raise you up. Rest assured you are United with Christ, He is sure to raise you up.
What you’ve described is literally not Calvinism. It’s not a roll of the dice. God isn’t cruel.
Yes, YOU chose God, YOU came to Christ, YOU put your trust in Christ, it’s true! You just did all those things because God FIRST opened your eyes to the truth of Christ when he didn’t have to. If he is obligated to show you mercy and grace then it’s no longer mercy and grace.
That’s why Flower’s wasn’t ever really reformed and this channel is whacky. Flowers actually made me reformed 😂His positions are weak and don’t make any sense.
As Grudem states on page 330 of his Systematic Theology text, “We confess that we do not understand how it is that God can ordain that we carry out evil deeds and yet hold us accountable for them and not be blamed Himself."
He does not rely on the Calvinist old faithful of IT A MYSTERY?
@@jeffreybomba I mean, that is essentially what Grudem says, “it’s a mystery!”
Which mystery seem more tenable; how God can have foreknowledge and us have free will at the same time or how God can decree our actions, thoughts and cells while not being held culpable for us having lustful thoughts to our stepmother?
WOW! According to Grudem God FORCES us to commit evil. Then blames us for it.
@@garyleemusic
Exactly - who can resist God's will
In actuality, he is mocking God because, by Calvinistic determinism, he is making light of God’s decree of you not to believe in Calvinism. Nothing but nonsense and it attacks the very character of God and His love for mankind.
Amen brother
I think I could give my life up if it meant the end of the devilish Calvinism. Utterly a shameful disgrace to Christ. Please keep going Laton!
Like actually wtf is wrong we you.
What a disgusting view point on other Christians.
Because so believe God has ultimate control then those people are devils.
The same way you judge other Christians you will be judged
It was not said without some serious thinking. So much could be said but here is not the place.
@@AaronShellMusic but it is the time an place to call other Christians devilish
Because they believe God ultimately controls everything.
@@ifthatthenthis3797 Believing Jesus only died for some people who are shown partiality and that the Gospel is actually terrible news for everyone God created reprobate destined for eternal punishment is pretty bad.
@@obrien709 no it isn't
God has ultimate authority over us he can do what he wants.
Who am I to tell God that He can create some for salvation and some for destruction
How can anyone love God if we don't have a free will? Calvenism is a horrible heresy!
Because our will is not free. Our will is in bondage to sin. We can not love God of our own will.
@@ericstephenson9038when we say our will is not free, we're also saying our will is not in bondage to sin. To be an image bearer is to have autonomy. If we can't love God of our own free will, we also can't sin of our own free will. Beings that don't have free will have never heard of free will.
, we do not love God of our own free will, but we love God because we responded in faith to His call to repentance and we believed that Christ died for us to redeem us from the bondage of sin. Because we are in Christ the old self was crucified with Christ and a new man came to life. So, we love Him because He loved us first, meaning we responded to His call and to His love with faith, with repentance and with continual love by being submitted to His will which He has revealed in His Word.
So, if we responded freely to His call to repentance and faith in order to come to salvation, we can also freely love Him and we do it because it is His commandment to love Him, because HE is the One who initiated this relationship. If we weren't free to respond to His commandment, then our love would not be genuine. If He MADE US love Him, without us having any say in it, then it would not be us loving Him but rather it would be Him loving Himself through us.
That would make His commandment to us to love Him pointless and it would also make God the greatest narcissist in all of existence. That would be Richard Dawkins's god.
If we don't have free will our love is worthless,our faith means nothing. Our prayers are not sincere. Our charity is pointless. Then all I could say is that God made me do it. I'm not to blame. I didn't want to do evil but God had already declared it so what choice did I have but to do it. Calvinism is evil.
Does anyone notice White always refers to Dr Flowers as Leighton, but Leighton refers to James White, as Dr White.
🥲
White has mocked Dr Flowers as not being a “real” Dr, and so forth. It’s funny how uncharitable White is. He just represents this cartoonish amalgamation and caricature of every interaction I’ve had with some Calvinist. Like, every cocky, self assured Calvinist I’ve dealt with draws from this collection of least enjoyable Calvinistic traits.
Oh my goodness...this is so scary.
We are not accountable for our actions because everything we do is "determined".
What a crafty way to feel comforted with your decisions.
Ugh.
Come, Lord Jesus!
A member of my aunt's Calvinist church justified his marital affairs with determinism. I know most Calvinists would not do that. But Calvinism leaves the door wide open for it. Scripture does not.
@@dver89 The only way a Calvinist would not do the same as your friend's ex is by denying determinism.
If a Calvinist believes that we should take comfort in God causing us to trust in Him without consent, they will also have to take comfort in God causing us to have an affair, be addicted to drugs, have cancer, or even commit murder or rape.
Calvinism is so disgusting that it's equivalent to swallowing dung.
The only way to become a Calvinist is to willingly swallow it...we are what we FREELY EAT!
Genesis 2:16
“And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest FREELY EAT:”
Genesis 3:6
“And when the woman saw that the tree was GOOD FOR FOOD, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree TO BE DESIRED TO MAKE ONE WISE, she took of the fruit thereof, and DID EAT, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he DID EAT.”
Romans 1:22
“Professing themselves to be wise, they BECAME FOOLS,”
John 6
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man EAT of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
We ARE what we EAT!
There are two servings to choose from.
The wisdom of the world and you will become of the world, and the wisdom of God and you will become of God.
Simple.
💌
Most Calvinists don’t take Calvinism to its logical conclusion, most are 3 point Tulips kind of a thing, and I’m thankful for that because Calvinisms logical conclusion is nihilism.
Usually people won’t take it to its logical conclusion because deep down they believe and operate like they have free will and are responsible for their actions, but it’s a crazy reality of Calvinisms systematic.
Moral relativism can even be reinserted into the equation because if everything is deterministic, then what you want, what you do, what you think is Gods will, not yours. Again, Calvinists don’t actually live life and think like that for the most part because everything from the soles of our feet to the top of our head and tips of our fingers, and everything around us tells us we live in a creation where we are granted a measure of free will and we are responsible for our actions.
So, on Calvinism, people believing in their hearts and operating on the basis of a lie according to Calvin (that free will is real) is what in reality ultimately helps keeps people in line and civil.
How slippery a slope to believe in a deterministic creation; I have no doubt when Calvin killed his theological rival, he most certainly felt it was the will of God.
Anyhow people, including Calvinists live like they have free will.
A friend of mine, who thankfully is logically consistent with his Calvinism, which makes for good conversation and debates, absolutely believes that determinism is what we live with. I asked him then what then does that mean when we go to heaven, are we going to be meticulously controlled by Gods sovereign will there too? He said yes. My jaw dropped. I said, wait, what’s the point of any of this, let alone heaven if all we are is meat puppets. To his credit he holds to this position. Philosophically, and more importantly, biblically, it makes absolutely no sense. But that’s fine. Talking with logically consistent Calvinists is actually nice because you can dig into the hard bits that less consistent Calvinists simply shy away from.
this is not what calvinism teaches….
I keep coming back to this... Jesus said, "A house divided itself can not stand." Does God the Father decree it when someone blasphemes the Holy Spirit?
Why do Calvinists have to lie about their beliefs to defend them? Because when they are honest, people rightly reject their ideas as a smear of God, a vile and contemptible lie.
Where do Calvinists get the authority or right to speak out against evil if the god they worship decreed evil?
How do you show empathy to someone suffering from disease if you believe God decreed that said person be afflicted with said disease? To feel sorry for that person is to imply that said disease should not have occurred, or that said disease is bad, but if God desired it to be so and decreed it, how could a Calvinist say otherwise?
Exactly ! That would mean that they love man more than GOD if that were the case.
In the same way that people would have sorrowed over Jesus being crucified and all the evil that was done to him in that even though God had predestined it to occur.
@@innovationhq8230 You miss the point. From the Calvinist view, the people who sorrowed of Jesus's death sorrowed in error for it was God who willed his suffering in death. They sorrowed because they believed that it should not* have happened. Likewise people who sorrow of evil in this world are equally in err, for it is God who decreed it and no man should dare disagree or imply that it should not have come to pass.
You should not be in sorrow over God's sovereign decision that is rebellion in the heart.
@innovation HQ it baffles me that calvinists can't see the difference between GOD predestinating HIS OWN suffering and other things that HE predestinated and the eternal damnation of most of mankind with mankind having no chance to do other. This includes sin, such as child rape and torture and then the tortured child to hell afterward, lust , pride .. etc.. . Things the Bible explicitly tells us that GOD does not predetermine, things it plainly tells us that do not come from GOD . These calvinistic claims are blasphemous and are a corrupt portrayal of CHRIST our SAVIOR .
GOD bless you
So, Calvinists made an entire system out of what John Calvin didn’t know… 🤔🙋🏻♂️
That’s why they have been using “election” more since John Calvin wasn’t in the Bible and cannot access everything.
How so?
When you have an entire system of belief, based on one man's or thousands of men's philosophy, you have a cult.
Listen to the language of Calvin.
Rape murder whatever evil God did it.
Actually, all the bad of the world comes from free will.
God does not ordain sin.
Incorrect. Our system comes from scripture, and THAT God is beyond our comprehension being infinite is no great surprise to us who WORSHIP Him.
@ethanjames1646 you got grit reading these comments, it's hard lolol
It seems like some teachers are financially tied to the way they understand the Bible. Even if they know they’re wrong, they stick to their guns because that’s how they pay the bills
James White is not making oodles of money bro
It's not always money. Pride is another major factor, and to be fair, is not limited to Calvinists and others with false beliefs as one with correct doctrine could also be caught in that trap. Highly regarded leaders within a system, such as James White, often have a towering arrogance about their own level of knowledge. For such individuals, to lose face and admit they were mistaken, even secretly to themselves, would be far more painful than to live in poverty.
@@DamonNomad82 I can sum up pride in a nutshell. It gives me anxiety lol better off without it.
Facts!
@@UltraAar you don't need to make oodles of money. He makes enough.
If God brings about immoral and evil acts, how are we able to recognize it as immoral and evil if God hasn't already revealed to us that its immoral ? Therefore how does the Calvinist declare God's goodness?
They ignore scriptural portrayal of GOD'S CHARACTER and replace it with gnostic philosophy my friend .
@@cecilspurlockjr.9421 Incorrect, ignorant talker.
By the moral law of God.
DW: Excellent point! And this is what C.S. Lewis meant when he said: "If God’s moral judgement differs from ours so that our ‘black’ may be His ‘white’, we can mean nothing by calling Him good; for to say ‘God is good’, while asserting that His goodness is wholly other than ours, is really only to say ‘God is we know not what’. And an utterly unknown quality in God cannot give us moral grounds for loving or obeying Him. If He is not (in our sense) ‘good’ we shall obey, if at all, only through fear - and should be equally ready to obey an omnipotent Fiend."
Thank you Leighton.
So many calvinists don't know this about Calvinism.
I can't tell you how many four-point calvinist I know.
The calvinist lies would be a lot less palatable if they would just come out front with this in the beginning.
They have to deceive people into believing it, so they never come out with this at the first.
At what age did you choose to follow Jesus? And what brought you to that decision?
@@jeremiah5319 is this question begging incoming? I myself was 20. I humbled myself when God spoke to me and told me to repent. I decided God was right I am wrong and gave my life to Him. I humbled myself (which God calls us to do in scripture) and obeyed the conviction of the Holy Spirit after resisting (which we can do according to Stephen the martyr) Him for a couple years. God did not “make me believe”. We can choose humility even though other people do not and they resist the Holy Spirit. So yes I chose to be more humble than some of my peers.
3, 4, 5 and 7 point calvinism....what else do we have?
James White is inconsistent because Calvinism is inconsistent
James White is inconsistent because he is dishonest. Bignon is consistent because he is honest in his theology (though mistaken, in my view).
James White has a PHd in Cognitive Dissonance!
@@mager888 Your caps lock key is stuck. You might want to take care of that, bless your precious little heart!
@@mager888 I guess you did not watch the video.
@@thomasdaniel22 Only if your a Calvinist with the same confirmation bias. All JW does with Leighton is avoid his points and deflect with typical bad debate topics.
The fundamental building blocks of a true doctrine should stand on their own. They should require unique Greek, assumption, other texts to be read in, forceful reading or a sudden refusal to take OT quotes back to the original text.
James white doesn't have a PHD
In your dreams
This is why I say Calvinism is a worldview not just a soteriology, because they have a noticeably different view of who God is than non-Calvinist does.
I think that’s what kept me from actually embracing Calvinism. It contradicts the character of God in such a way that I couldn’t really make sense of it.
Such a worldview is not divorced from atheists or spiritualists reading astrology charts. Even CRT has a degree of determinism built in, even if I agree with the thesis that racist laws came from a racist society and had a perverse influence on lives of minorities growing up.
Here’s the funny part, even leaving Calvinism still leaves you engrained with the Calvinistic presupposition. Listen to Derek Webb carefully; you’ll notice that he still holds to the Calvinistic worldview, but concluded he was a reprobate.
“Any other gospel…”
@@lancesteinke3732
(Romans 11:1-2) I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
God hath not cast away his people which he "FOREKNEW"
(Romans 8:29) For whom he did "FOREKNOW" he also did predestinate to be CONFORMED to the IMAGE OF HIS SON
(Ephesians 1:4-5) According as he hath "CHOSEN US" in him BEFORE the foundation of the world, that WE should be HOLY and without blame before him in love having "PREDESTINATED US" unto the "ADOPTION" of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will
☝️ Ethnic Israel is predestined - it's pretty simple
@@yeahboee
(Romans 11:1-2) I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
God hath not cast away his people which he "FOREKNEW"
(Romans 8:29) For whom he did "FOREKNOW" he also did predestinate to be CONFORMED to the IMAGE OF HIS SON
(Ephesians 1:4-5) According as he hath "CHOSEN US" in him BEFORE the foundation of the world, that WE should be HOLY and without blame before him in love having "PREDESTINATED US" unto the "ADOPTION" of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will
☝️ Ethnic Israel is predestined - it's pretty simple - it's what's written it's not another gospel
Jim has so poisoned himself with his Calvinistic view, even when he proclaims the truth I hear the hiss of the serpent.
Look at me, look at me. He's chosen me but not you.
@@lesliewilliam3777 where and when does he say that. God’s election is in the entirety of scripture. We know not who they are so we freely offer the gospel to all!
Only God can awaken a sinner. It’s His gift.
@@dfischer5878 Per definizioni, a Calvinist must believe that those in hell are there because God purposely DID NOT choose them (when he could plainly and easily have done so). By choosing you, and not me, for no reason other than God himself (especially any reason to do with the chosen person himself!), then, logically, God's choice CANNOT be anything but arbitrary. (It would make no logical sense to say God's choice is caused by something inside of God himself. If it were, rationally what would that be? Hence, the arbitrary nature of God's "choice" if he only willed some to be saved and others to perish.)
Here's the Calvinist's dilemma:
God wants all men to be saved but can't because not every man wants to be saved
Vs
God could save all men but won't because he does not want all men to be saved and thus only saves a few while allowing the many to perish.
Which I ask, in the service of logic, follows Scripture the more faithfully (esp. "In the sight of God our saviour this is undoubtedly the right thing to pray for; for his purpose is that all men should be saved and come to realise the truth"): the former or the latter?
My jibe, that you question, still stands: Look, God chose me but not you!
@@lesliewilliam3777Look at you look at you. You chose God and millions didn't.
@@ethanmulvihill7177 In this display of arrogance and intellectual dishonesty you ignored the Calvinist dilemma. I'll repeat it (not that I expect an honest response):
God wants all men to be saved but can't because not every man wants to be saved
Vs
God could save all men but won't because he does not want all men to be saved and thus only saves a few while allowing the many to perish.
In a few minutes, there will come along at least one Calvinist to state that Leighton does not understand calvinism and neither do we.
Don't know how much clearer these calvinists leaders can make it, and by extension, they prove that there is no reason to worship their god.
But God decreed for us not to understand. ;)
is that sort of like catholics , when discussed , they all say , we dont worship Mary, then they say the rosary.
@@Myrdden71 LOL. That's what they say. Apparently he decreed that THEY wouldn't understand calvinism and only a select few calvinist scholars would.
@@Myrdden71 😏
Me @ 8:41 I guess James White doesn't understand Calvinism either
Me @10:16 🤦🏽♂️I guess James White is just a disingenuous rhetorician then
You can add "I guess James White is the only one qualified to classify who is and is not a calvinist," although it doesn't appear in this video.
DW: The Calvinist practice of evading and denying their own doctrine is well established. That is why Calvinism has a well earned reputation for having a language of DOUBLE-SPEAK. Jame's mind is so totally ensnared by that DOUBLE-SPEAK - that his mind is completely unable to discern it. His mind has become conditioned to not be able to think rationally.
@@dw6528 to quote the movie Water Boy: "Something's wrong with his madulla oblongata!"
@@a.k.7840 DW: Good one! :-D
calvinists constantly give God a bad name ... it's depressing to know their views land on unbelievers ears, and they shun The Lord b/c of how insanely unjust and perceived evil he is in that system.
At this very time of apostasy, when so many are turning away from God, positively hating Him.
Some years ago I read the novel "The Disappearance" by Philip Wylie, published in 1951. One of the minor characters is a clergyman who seems to have a rather negative view of God, who comes across as a deterministic tyrant. Neither the clergyman or God are mentioned much in the novel, but there was enough there to lead me to deduce that Mr. Wylie probably grew up under a harsh Calvinism that emphasized the sovereignty of God, without emphasizing His love. I looked at his Wikipedia entry, and it says that Mr. Wylie was the son of a Presbyterian minister--indeed. It's amazing how many people never grow out of the ideas about God that they're fed in childhood.
Calvinism isn't just horrible Theology, ( which, of course, it is) it is blasphemy against the very nature and character of God! As a result of examining Calvinism for the last 20 years or so, I can't think of even ONE good fruit that it has produced, NOT ONE!
Hey Leighton, for those of us de-converting in the context of a Calvinistic, reformed church (Presbyterian in my case), how should we navigate & think about church membership? Could be a good video topic.
No such thing as I am a member of X church. You are automatically a member of the one and only church where you live.
This was a huge mind game for me when I was at a Calvin's church. I couldn't understand their explanation of predestination and determinism.
It's rather quite simple
Romans 9 argues that it’s not ethnic Israel. This is corporate election you are talking about. But the whole world is corporately elected according to the Bible, but not the whole world is saved, you missed the verses that state specific people being predestined.
@@casenswartz7278
When it says "they are not all Israel which are of Israel" in Romans 9 - it's speaking of people like the Herod's who were ruling over Israel in the times of Christ and Paul - the scriptures presented in my comment as well as the verses before Romans 9:6 make it clear that ethnic bloodline Israel is "elect" and "predestined" what's wrong with you
(Isaiah 45:4) for Jacob my servants sake and ISRAEL mine "ELECT"
(Romans 9:3-5) For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for MY BRETHREN, my kinsmen according to the "FLESH" who are ISRAELITES; to whom pertaineth the ADOPTION, and the GLORY, and the "COVENANTS" and the giving of the LAW, and the service of God, and the "PROMISES" whose are the fathers, and of WHOM AS CONCERNING THE "FLESH" CHRIST CAME
It was predestined and predetermined that you wouldn't understand it.😅
@cdr 777
(Isaiah 45:4) for Jacob my servants sake and ISRAEL mine "ELECT"
(Isaiah 44:1) for Jacob my servants sake and ISRAEL whom I have "CHOSEN"
I love that Dr. Leighton's surname is Flowers which interestingly is what Calvinists and Armenianists subscribe to TULIP and DAISY respectively. I think you sir were "determined" by God to debunk these for us.
Kidding aside, thank you for doing this and help us wrestle with these confusions! God bless you!
Flowers is more Biblically FLOWERY than any Tulip can ever be!
Score Card:
Flowers -1
Tulip -0
CASE CLOSED
Never thought of "Flowers," associated with TULIP. Funny.
I was raised Arminian & have never heard of the DAISY acronym. I’m 60+ years old now, so… 🤷♀️
Funny.
I was just thinking of "trent horn" whose channel is "counsel of trent" who also has a funnily fitting name.
Funny.
I was just thinking of "trent horn" whose channel is "counsel of trent" who also has a funnily fitting name.
Thank you, Leighton.
Spot on Leighton. To me, determinism reduces God's sovereignty, as it reduces him to a scriptwriter or filmmaker rather than a creator. And it makes a mockery of so many scriptures that talk about human choice and responsibility and accountability to God. Heartfelt appeals to repent and obey don't make any sense if we are robots.
@jokinghazard4022 the very purpose of this video is to point out that the Calvinist perspective, according to Calvin, White, and the other scholar I am not familiar with, is that God decreed every single thing that every single person does. Logically, that would mean that we are essentially robots, having been preprogrammed to do whatever God decreed for us to do.
Is that not what Calvinism teaches? Are the 3 scholars mentioned in the video misrepresenting Calvinism in some way? What are your thoughts?
@Christopher Walls Hi Christopher, yes, exactly and well explained. I did use the word determinism, and when I listen to people who advocate that explain it, that is exactly what they are saying: every single thing, good or bad, has been pre ordained and predetermined by God. In which case, as Leighton Flowers often points out, you and I are obviously pre determined not to believe that! So, there is no need for anyone to argue with us!
@jokinghazard4022 Apparently Calvinism does have a set view on determinism, if John Calvin says that God predetermines all things that all people will ever do. It is a soteriological issue if the Calvinist says that people are predetermined by God to not be able to believe (not be saved), and other people are predetermined by God to not be able to not believe (be saved). That would be extremely pertinent to the doctrine of salvation (soteriology).
The questions still stand: are the three scholars in the video misrepresenting Calvinism with their view of determinism? Is it not the Calvinistic view that God determines who will be saved? Is it not, then, also the Calvinistic view that God determines all other thoughts and deeds of a person? Finally, per the original comment, wouldn't that mean that we are essentially robots, doing only what God predetermined for us to do?
@jokinghazard4022 Now I'm confused at the purpose of your original response:
"You really do not understand calvinism, we do not argue anything that would make humans robots."
But your position is that God's omniscience and omnipotence demand determinism, where God has predetermined all of our actions, thus making us robots.
@jokinghazard We have to believe the scriptures as they are and live in the light of them, not a philosophical system.
"They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal- something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind," Jeremiah 19:5 NIV
"They have built also the high places of Baal to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind". KJV
That in no way says God was the primary cause and predetermined their sin. It couldn't be clearer in ruling that out. "nor did it enter my mind."
How do you reconcile ,"nor did it enter my mind " , with your statement, "God decreed everything that came to pass" ?
How did God decree that they would burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal without commanding it, speaking it, or it entering His mind" ? How do you believe He did that, without maligning His character or contradicting His clear statement through the prophet?
The more I learn about Calvinism, the more I hate it. Shocking that so many people buy into this, and i sense there is a pride in their perceived election, even though they use the sovereignty of God to try and display humility. THIS IS ABSOLUTE INSANITY.
Amen!
A single verse is enough to answer this...
"And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin." Jeremiah 32:35
Yes, those arguing for determinism are rejecting that verse, which couldn't be stated more clearly or strongly.
@@matt76716 Yes, this would make Lord a liar in this verse - God forbid! Thankfully it's not true and is just philosophical eisegesis.
Hi Leighton, the one point in all you excellent talks is the fact the all the cults, Mormons, JWs etc have one major thing in common. They all follow the teaching of one person. It is surely the starting point in examining the teachings being put forward by Calvin. Look at the mans fruit
and Luther
The fact that God is sovereign doesn't necessitate that He be a micromanager. This is just one of many reasons that Calvinist arguments do not carry weight with me.
Time-stamps:
5:02, 5:45 - Bignon’s view of determinism
6:20, 6:34 - Bignon is a leading scholar of Calvinism
7:10, 8:08 - John Calvin on God’s decree (Institutes of Christian Religion)
8:40 - James White’s view in a 2003 debate
9:53 - response
Time-stamp
8:10 - In John Calvin’s view, “… thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict.”
(John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 5).
The entire point of Christianity is that we have sinned and so we are not worthy of entering paradise/heaven. So by doing one bad thing we are no longer good. So if God does one bad thing, how could he still be good?
The entire point of Jesus' atonement for our sins is that he was never corrupted by sin. So he was the perfect sacrifice that didnt deserve what he got. But Jesus is God, so if God caused all the bad things, then Jesus caused all the bad things. So he would no longer be a perfect atonement for our sins.
Yes, correct. Calvanism maligns the character of God.
So God can be responsible for rape, murder, and molestation, but not despair per James White at 9:50. Just out of curiosity, how are the people who were picked for hell from eternity past supposed to feel?
James 1:13
13. Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14. But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16. Do not err, my beloved brethren.
17. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
18. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
13:20 ironically enough, that's basically the conclusion of Gnosticism.
It's interesting at the beginning of this whole clip Leighton refers to the TikTok guy because White had recent discussion with. Of course White and Durbin destroyed his "arguments" but all I could think about the whole time is: on Calvinism God decreed his apostasy.
When you say God decrees His apostasy, what exactly do you mean by that? Are you implying Calvinists believe God made and caused him to be that way?
Calvinism historically descends from gnosticism. Augustine first taught a biblical predestination, election and free will. But late in life, around the time of his argument with Pelagius, he changed the doctrine into one that was like the doctrine of the Manichaean gnostics he'd belonged to for 9 years. Historical fact; see book by Dr. Ken Wilson.
Maybe this explains why Jesus is the image of the invisible (biblical) God, but Calvinism's god looks a lot more like a ruthless, "thumbs down", Roman emperor. Spirits take advantage of opportunities, you know.
@@lindajohnson4204 I see you lower cased the g. Are you saying Calvinists aren’t saved?
@@lindajohnson4204 Ken Wilson is not credible.
@@innovationhq8230 A random internet Aug-Gnostic describing a highly qualified scholar with a doctorate from Oxford as "not credible"? Hmm, I wonder which one has the better credentials and is therefore much more likely to be credible than the other...
ISAIAH 40:8
The grass withers and the *flowers fall* , but the word of our God stands forever.”
I made this statement to my wife and daughter who are tired of my anti Calvin goggles talk any time we are discussing any theological perspectives etc... I guess in their opinion I am a clanging gong...
My statement was that I will no longer fight against the theology of a dead man...but instead promote the theology of the Living God.
Everyone seems to have their own understanding and often it will take the Holy Spirit to guide them in all truth AND their willingness to receive correction...
😇🙏💪
We all see and hear what we want to see and hear. It's a dangerous thing. May the LORD deliver us all from that fault and give us ears and eyes and hearts that seek only the truth!
I recommend reading the latter part of Irenaus' Against Heresies Book 2.
He addresses the claim of some gnostics that some people are just born evil or born good.
He, unlike most of his other rebuttals, answers with a call to being comfortable not knowing, just as some things in Scripture and the world are beyond our understanding, though we learn as much as we can.
He also makes several statements that sound very non-Calvinistic, but to be fair, that could be just him not being precise but using his understanding of Scripture (as opposed to perhaps some other Christians somewhere).
This is instructive, because Irenaeus is an early church father who, based on reading his book, is clearly immersed in Scripture.
You would think that if Scripture was SO obvious and that the apostles all taught Calvinism then it would be a widespread belief and clearly taught by the early fathers, or at least some of them.
Leighton has discussed this historical argument before.
James White even has a clip of him saying that the early church fell into man centered theology early.
I just don't think that is quite correct because a better argument needs to be made than that.
@@OnTheThirdDay God is going to be able to be heard through His Word or not.... if we believe that all Scripture is God breathed and useful for training as well as rebuke and His Word won't return void....why do we need or should desire to point to other literary works to bring us more truth or clarity?
I'm not making an idol out of the Bible as I know that the Bible didn't bleed and die for my sins to be forgiven...yet it is Scripture that Jesus combatted satan with when tempted by satan to prove who He is by actions purposed by satan....
I think we tend to go through periods of finding our life in Christ and then instead of continuing with the Comforter we sometimes find comfort in the denominational think tanks that will rest in their camps...meanwhile neglecting the sanctification process where we grow more Christlike in our faith without trying to usurp His authority...
John the Baptist was okay with being the "Lesser" when some of his disciples moved forward with Jesus....
We should all be about that Gospel life and letting the One that paid for us in full be allowed access to this vessel that is no longer ours...but His...are we doing what we are told to? Death to the carnal "old nature" ....daily if need be? The old nature wants to continue to rule and reign in the vessel it was once in control of...I believe this is the "thorn in the flesh" Paul spoke of....
Anyways...just got out of church and in between services and gonna get back into God's Word.
God's Only Son Permits Eternal Life!
😇🙏💪
@@mrupholsteryman
Ok, thanks.
I am sure that you have listened to sermons or read a book about the Bible.
That is how I view the church fathers, except they have the benefit of having had their pastors either be the Disciples or disciples of Christ who learned from the Disciples.
Irenaeus heard Polycarp preach. Polycarp was a student of John.
I don't place him above Scripture but as a pastor of the flock that God chose during very early and tumultuous times for the Church.
@@OnTheThirdDay realized I had a typo...changed BA into BE. Knowing I am not perfect still and hoping to not cause others to stumble.
I'm no scholar but when the bible says
"Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter" ISAIAH 5:20 That alone, for me, collapses this belief of "determinism" because God does not contradict himself, and ever will. Because if he purposely decreed or determined an evil act, only to bring good from it, how is that any different from those evil in the world, who intentionally create evil problems, just so they can offer the solution for the calamity they've caused to look like the hero, and the one who is good, to receive praise?
That screams out a God who is unstable in all his ways, and doesn't demonstrate the God of the bible, and his true nature, that I've come to know and understand. I believe absolutely, that because we have free will, that WHEN someone commits an evil act, that God can take that awful situation and turn it into good, for HIS glory, to demonstrate to us his nature. But I do not believe that he would purposely be the one who puppeteered the person into doing the evil act in order to glorify himself that way, that does not honour who God is, and how big he is.
I like Dr James White, as he has a lot of sound scripture teachings, but this right here with his Calvanism belief and view, I'll have to respectfully pass on.
Bryson: But to blame God, which is what a decree does, to blame God for the rape of a child is a horrible attack on the very character and love of God!
This sums it all up for me. James 1:13 “God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one."‘
I used to be a confused believer because of this Calvinism and Armenianism debate. I couldn't completely agree on either side but there are some things I agree on both sides. What I learned is that, it doesn't have to be an OR it can be God's responsibility AND man's responsibility!
Jesus put to bed the whole does God decree evil.
Matthew 6:13 KJV
*_And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil:_* For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
@SB calvinist ignore that passage like they do so many others my friend .
Many heresies occur because people can’t wrap their minds around paradoxes. God’s ways are not our ways, and so some struggle with faith/works, free will/predestination, etc. None of this is hard for God. Calvinism is heresy.
Could it be that Calvinists define "moral evil" as only "creatures disobeying God's revealed commandments" and nothing more, completely ignoring the question of trying to understand why God commands certain things and forbids others? In declaring God's will incomprehensible, do they give up on knowing God's character that motivates his commandments? I'm trying to understand this cognitive defect.
@cdr 777 I’d have to say we day and wonder the same. I’m not a scholar just a student of the book. I fought against the doctrines of grace for years. Once I removed the presupposition I was approaching scripture with the veil was lifted and the reformed teachings taught as it is in scripture.
The problem with Calvinism is that the doctrine was created by a psychopath.
Do a study on John Calvin, and he followed the methods of the Roman Catholic Church.
Yet Calvin was an outcast of Catholicism.
He was expelled due to his doctrine from Cathloic seminary.
He murdered his friend for disagreements with his teaching.
All tallied fifty-five people were dragged from their homes,while their family watched and burned at the stake.
Some will say we'll he did not do it himself.
No He ordered their death because he ruled the religion of Geneva.
Some say he had a gre😢at part in the Reformation.
He plagiarized Augustines work and incorporated it in his doctrines, and made notes to go into the Geneva Bible.
These notes were problematic because they promoted another Gospel.
King James did not ban the Geneva Bible, nor did he punish those who read it.
King James banned the printing of the Geneva Bible, yet the Puritians held on to Calvin's notes, and believed America was promised to them, and burning along with murder of Native people was destiny, after the Natives saved thir lives of course.
The Salem witch trials were also inspired by some ignorant people who thought a birthmark or accusations were evidence to burn women at the stake.
When I watch Calvinest discernment clips that are filled with lies and snippets out of context I know where they found the inspiration to slander anyone who is not Calvinest
If God decrees all things, then Fallen Man which they claim are Totally Depraved are actually obeying God. Hence, they really aren't Totally Depraved.
Totally depraved does not mean to our full capacity. It means our desires are tainted by our sin nature.
God restrains the evil in the world keeping us from being totally consumed by evil.
You know the God who is in total control and not relying on man to help Him achieve His goals.
"Totally depraved does not mean to our full capacity. It means our desires are tainted by our sin nature."
Just about any Christian would agree that our desires are "tainted". Your system teaches that humanity is completely, totally unable to apprehend the things of God without God's direct intervention. That is contradicted by Paul's sermon in Athens in Acts 17 and Romans 1. Calvinism always hedges by saying "we aren't as bad as we could be" which is another version of your "total doesn't mean full capacity", which is another instance of Calvinist redefinition.
@DFischer Actually, Calvinism's Total Depravity does indeed teach that mankind is completely and utterly depraved to the point that not only does mankind have no desire to seek out God, but actually cannot due to the depths of their depravity. Besides, the definition of Total Depravity is a moot point given the Deterministic Will of God and how Calvinists define the Sovereignty of God as being meticulous control over every aspect of creation, no matter how small. R.C. Sproul once said that if there was even a single rogue molecule, then God is not sovereign. Given that definition, Mankind isn't Totally Depraved, nor can they be Totally Depraved, because no one can act outside the will of God. This means that the thoughts, behaviors, and actions defined under Total Depravity actually come from God himself, which means that mankind is in complete obedience to God's will.
Calvinism shoots itself with Determinism.
@@grahck4391 and bam. shots just fired.
@@thomasdaniel22 Know the difference between what you want scripture to teach and what it actually teaches. The Bible doesn't teach Calvinism.
"Not what I think..What YOU Believe Dr. White"
Thats exactly rite
Thanks Leighton from Denver North Carolina
Exactly! Instead of assuming God can do the illogical and or impossible, maybe we should assume that we have misunderstood the text...
😂😂😂
The first person He revealed Himself as "the Way" to the Father was to the woman at the well.
Yeah...nah!
Not a bigot
And Paul said, "Youre all sons", elevating women with the men as equal in the eyes of God.
Two women were the first witnesses to the resurrection of Jesus, in a time Josephus described “women as being worth half a man, and their testimony not to be trusted”.
Calling Jesus a bigot because he referred to his own mother as “woman” shows a level of historical ignorance and contextual understanding of a redditor who is a regular on /r/atheism.
@@martytu20
So true!
Jesus was just using common vernacular of the time.
The problem today, as I see it, is that (so called) Christians have used Scripture to validate mistreating/abusing women.
Kind of the same issue with all the killing in the Name of God, ie: the Crusades for example.
There's plenty of material anti-theists (which is a better descriptiin) can draw from, claiming just the opposite of what Scripture actually says.
They don't (want to) separate the true signal from the noise.
And those who aren't anti-theist per se, but are non- believers hear all these things and think that that is true Christianity.
I find this very frustrating.
But Jesus being a bigot is patently absurd.
Don’t know if you’ve ever thought of this Leighton, I’m sure you have, but if God determines every single thing that happens, that means anything and everything you do is the will of God which effectively makes your will and desires equal to Gods will and desires, effectively making you in some sense God. Literally every choice, thought and action you do becomes the will of god. It’s kind of sickening to think about. I can do anything I want without restraint and turn right around and say god made me do it, because I am only capable of doing gods will. This type of thinking is what you see in people with psychosis, they literally believe they are god, a Calvinist would never claim to be god but their system teaches every action or thought is the same as gods because god caused you to do or have it and you can do nothing but what god has willed. Extremely sick belief system.
Thank you for speaking up against the spiritual toxicity of Calvinism!
What is toxic about calvinism?
@@jibblecain it’s a psychopathic theology
It’s very prideful. The whole “I’m chosen and you’re not” is the exactly the kind of pride we see that God is against over and over again in the Bible, among those who have completely missed the point of who God is and what his message is.
With Calvinism, we’re once again seeing the same pride that God calls out continually in both the OT and NT.
The Jews prideful they’re picked. Then Paul addressing the pride of the Gentiles feeling they’re picked.
Now Calvinists feeling they’re picked.
All totally missing the point. No one was picked fir salvation, but picked to carry God’s message to the world.
It’s just such a sophomoric and anti biblical theology.
@@rmike298 I know I'm considered one of God's generals, but it's all for his glory and his namesake, I counter it with childlike faith I have fun with it.
@@rmike298 moreover the logical conclusion of Calvinist views will logically lead you to pride and sectarianism..
They like to accuse non Calvinist people of pride yet they're the guilty of not owning their position and deflection.
Let's follow their illogical conclusion.
How dare you say sin is wrong, God decreed that we all sin!
God sits in Heaven and does as He wills!
Why must Jesus die for our sins if Jesus is the one predetermining us to sin?
You, frank turek and William lane craig helped me so much.
I felt sympathetic for the atheist when he said 'God did it"
Now I get where he comes from
God does not even tempt men to sin, let alone cause evil.
Matthew 6:13 KJV
*_And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil:_* For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Does James White honestly not notice that all this time, Leighton is simply presenting what consistent Calvinism would sound like?
James makes one large presupposition there;
He assumes that either God brought about evil things because of a determined decree OR God brought about evil things but with no purpose.
Calvinism IS Theistic Determinism, if you are going to be consistent with your Calvinism, then you have to adopt Theistic Determinism, which presupposes that God decrees evil.
But,
Traditional Christianity has always argued that neither are true.
But, God has sown the field with wheat, and His angels came to Him and said "there are thorns growing in the field" and He said to them "an enemy has done this..."
Traditional Christianity has always understood that God is not tempted nor does He temp anyone, that God is not the author of evil, but in His rightful rule, sovereignty and providence, He uses all things for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose.
I will not accept the man-made philosophy of Calvinism which is an extra-biblical form of theistic determinism not coming from scripture.
Decreeing moral wrong and allowing moral wrong are two different things. All moral wrong will face justice at some point, therefore one is wise to accept that justice that was meted out on Jesus Christ.
In your opinion does God decree/predetermine moral wrong to happen?
@@rpvideos4118 No
@@danstone8783 Acts 2:23 seems to say differently. Talking about the crucifixion it says that Jesus was "Delivered up according to the PREDETERMINED plan of God." Other translations says that Jesus was crucified according to the "DEFINITE plan of God.
The Romans were clearly sinning and doing moral wrong when they killed Jesus. And this verse seems to say that this was predetermined by God, that it was God's plan before the foundation of the world for Jesus to be crucified.
@@rpvideos4118 Moral wrong is sin and God cannot sin
Imagine this: It's 1795 and a delegation from these (13) United States goes to England to ask George III to resume reigning the US as king over the colonies. Can we do a mulligan? The policies of George Washington were so odious that, after his death, his cadaver is exhumed, given a "proper beheading," and thrown on a dung pile. Thus, after a decade of republic, we repudiate our decision to abolish the monarchy here and wish it re-established over us.
With apologies to Washington for the unflattering caricature used for illustration, that gives you and idea of Britain from late 1640s to early 1660s and the protectorate of Oliver Cromwell from 1653 to 1658 as well as Britain's national repentance after abolishing the monarchy! Churchill criticizes the Cromwell dictatorship as lowering the British quality of life beyond anything before or since.
When Calvinists are in charge, they don't play nice. We've heard about this with the Massachusetts puritans, the English did puritanism on steroids!
I love these shorter videos. I usually don't have the time to watch the ones that go over 30 minutes, and I never can watch the ones that go over an hour.
James white knows that you've got him beat scripturally and therefore is to much of a coward to come on your show to have a brotherly bibl8cal discussion. It fill me with anger to hear Jim lie about GOD , saying that HE predetermines the rape and murder of children, making HIM the cause of sin and the lust that fuels it .
GOD bless you brother Leighton. Thank you
He has said multiple times that he will debate Leighton with both of them only having the greek text so why won't Leighton do it?
@innovation HQ why don't you just answer the long standing question my friend ? Why won't White come on Leighton's show and have a l9ving brotherly discussion ? It's clear to see that WHITE isn't a loving brother and it's also clear how ridiculous White behaves in debates . Why not just have a discussion where they can get right down to the nitty gritty of it but in a loving way ? We're searching for truth, not to see who can bob and weave through a debate like White always does when debating sotierology . Don't get me wrong, I love to watch White destroy Muslims , atheist, JW'S , etc.. but this should be a brotherly discussion, don't you agree ?
@@innovationhq8230 also leighton has never in a debate with James walked through an entire book in context.
Why is God responsible for evil? So bizarre. Calvinists are sick.
James White can you hear yourself?
9:21
“Meaningless! Meaningless!”
says the Teacher.
“Utterly meaningless!
Everything is meaningless.”
This is such great content. How is this channel not at 500k+ subscribers?!
Algorithm
The Calvinist channels are being promoted by the internet and UA-cam. Somethings not right with it.
You know Everybody reject the Truth.
Dr Flowers, you can make (provide) into an acrostic for a flower (orchids) as follows with minimal changes:
O - Open Door (O)
R - Responsible (R)
C - Christ's Atonement (V)
H - Heaven/eternal life (E)
I - Illuminating Grace (I)
D - Destroyed (D)
S - Sin (P)
Keep it up -- a brother in Christ
My understanding of evil has always been that God allows evil-He doesn’t condone evil…
Everyone agrees that God allows, evil and sin to take place. But the question is does God cause evil and sin to take place? Or does God predetermine that it will happen?
@@rpvideos4118 doesn’t cause and predetermine mean the same thing? I don’t believe that God causes or predetermines evil or sin.
@@deespence8629 How do you interpret Acts 2:23? Talking about the crucifixion of Jesus it says that Jesus was crucified "According to the PREDETERMINED plan of God." Other translations say that Jesus was murdered according to the DEFINITE PLAN of God. You said that God doesn't predetermine evil or sin, but the crucifixion of Jesus was one of the most evil acts to have happened. The Romans were clearly sinning when they killed Jesus. And this was predetermined to take place before the foundation of the world.
@@rpvideos4118 I did not make myself clear- I was not speaking of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I assumed we were speaking of fallen man… of course God had a plan before the foundation of the world and He knew mankind would fall. So yes He predetermined that Jesus would take on the sin of the world and the horrific death we all deserve! But praise Jesus- He made a way for us to the Father❤️✝️🙏
@@deespence8629 I agree that God predetermined that Jesus would save the world. But you said that God doesn't predetermine sin. But the Romans were sinning. So that is just one example where God does foreordain and predetermine sin to take place. What about the Flood then? Did it surprise God when the flood came and killed everyone on earth except the people on the Ark? Or did God predetermine that many would die? Before the world was created God also knew about all of the wars that were going to take place, are you saying that God did not predestine these things to take place?
I applaud your tireless efforts to respond to White - even though it's never going to convince him or any other committed "5-pointer" to admit the rediculousness of determinism. Like Sisyphus, you will never get that rock to the top of the hill.
We get messages daily from Calvinists who’ve left Calvinism.
@@Soteriology101 So, there IS hope?
So, the Calvinists don't believe their own doctrine. Which suggests that they're in it for the money. Or maybe they just like making people miserable. Sounds legit.
Brother Leighton flowers GOD bless you . For playing their audio so we can here for ourselves be blessed always .
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Calvinism in all of its tenants are supported by philosophical assumptions, not the plain word of God. Nearly every time James white opens his mouth he talks in circles and ends up saying Calvin ism must be true because... philosophy.
It'll be fun to watch White respond to this. Love the DL!
Leighton gets under his skin.
White doesn't really respond in any meaningful way. He just slings mud.
Paul’s epistle to the Colossians addresses all such deliberate attempts to make the gospel seem complex or ostentatious. Of all the apostles, the Holy Spirit chose Paul, the profound scholar, to defend the gospel’s simplicity against any hint of academic elitism or philosophical gentrification. This is McAuthor's statement in one of his books on Paul. Yet what Calvinists do, is make it complicated. Got to know Greek and Hebrew to get it right. That way you can preach another Gospel.
People argue about things they made up words for...
Where you determined or free to make that comment?
@@ajsirch 😂 ....Calvin made me do it...
There's a reason why Jesus told us to pray to the Father that "thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven." In Heaven his will is done absolutely, on the earth not so much. If God's will was done on earth absolutely, or as decreed, why would we have to pray in that fashion?
I'm an incest and rape victim, this is what makes me hate the God of Calvinism! I know it's the devil not God in heaven. Because the God in heaven does not determine evil, but God does have foreknowledge of evil, He can redeem and turn evil to good. It's not foreknowledge if you can only know it if you ordained it.
All correct except reformed theology does not teach God decreed the evil done to you.
Calvinism itself is a System of despair.
The God of the Bible is Holy, Righteous, and PERFECT. He does not want people to sin, nor does He cause them to sin. In fact, it would not be sin if God causes it. It would simply be His will being accomplished. How can there be any sin if God's will is always being done in EVERY situation, ALL of the time? Calvinism fails because it doesn't grasp that God is 100 percent sovereign, and in His complete sovereignty, He chooses to give humans some degree of free will to choose to accept or reject Christ, to say yes or no to God's commandments, to be obedient or not. That's why scripture says over and over things like, "Whosover will..and choose you this day...and repent...and lean not on your own understanding...and preach the gospel to the whole world.
IF God's will is always being done, an awful lot of evil is being done by God: I don't believe it for one second. God won't tell us not to sin and then make us sin, not the God of the Bible, and not the God I worship and love.
White is not a Christian apologist. White is an apologist for Calvinist soteriology. John Calvin is his God, because he interprets what God has said through the screen of what Calvin says, not what God says. Whoever's word is your truth, that is your God.
Its so strange. My old home church was pastored by calvinists, but they didnt preach calvinism much at all. My pastor made sure to present the Gospel at the end of each service, and I always wondered how he squared that circle, but he's still my brother in Christ.
And if he preached Calvinism, would he still be a brother?
The other day, someone quoted Steve Lawson as saying the gospel was "calling" people to be saved.
@@SSNBN777 I think he would
Some Calvinists (the ones who are Christians first and Calvinists second) do contradict their own beliefs and sincerely preach the true Gospel, either ignoring or shrugging off the inconsistencies that it creates. Charles Spurgeon was such a Calvinist, despite the quote of his that internet Calvinists like to quote like it's some kind of Bible verse about Calvinism being the Gospel, he also noted the conflict between Calvinism and Biblical teaching and sided firmly with the Bible on the issue.
A lot of people call themselves Calvinists but really don’t understand what Calvinism actually teaches.
There is a cultic group for everyone - they're called denominations...
The weight of Scripture declaring God's holiness, goodness, kindness, mercy, love and inability to do evil is so overwhelming that it is inconceivable to me how any Christian can profess that the LORD of the Bible who created all things is the author of sin and evil. Sorry, their Calvi-god is a little "g" god. My God is the great, I AM!|
God does decree evil in that He chooses when to allow His creatures to do evil, to accomplish His purposes. He’s not BEHIND the evil choices of men, but he is OVER those choices.
ALL Calvinists by definition are Calvinists , therefore misrepresenting the HOLY character of GOD.
How anyone can take James White seriously is beyond me. No reason for despair, James? God causes the rape of a child (And also predestined most for hell) But there's no reason for despair! This is so far removed from sounding like anything in the Bible it's insane.
James white is a guy I clearly stay away from!
Just because God allows evil doesn’t mean he wills it. God allowed David to commit adultery and murder but he didn’t make David do it. God also allowed Jesus the opportunity to sin by allowing Satan to tempt him but Jesus instead overcame those temptations and conquered Satan and death.
If determinism is true, why does mankind need the Cross?
Was just listening to this with my kids around. My 12 year old daughter asked me your exact question.
I hear James White and I just want to ask his listeners if they hear the fruit of the Spirit and a person living out the principles of 1 John in his tone and way of speaking. Where is the love? Where is the joy of the Lord? It is one of the rarest things ever for me to hear someone who identifies as a Calvinist have any hint of joy in the sound of their voice.
So basically it’s “Might makes right” with Calvinists
Precisely! The relationship most internet Calvinists and leading Calvinist preachers have toward their badly distorted view of God is that of toadies to a bully rather than redeemed prodigal sons and daughters to a loving, forgiving Father.
Always has been. This world has simply replaced God with Government.
Working on the sabbath and eating pigs used to be wrong.
Now it isn't.
Because Right and Wrong is whatever God says.
Precisely. God is merely an omnipotent fiend in that system.
@@thomasdaniel22 Nice try! You're intentionally using a linguistically obsolete translation in an attempt to exploit 4 centuries of changes to the English language and pretending the text says something it doesn't. That's on the same level as implying that the old Christmas song "Deck the Halls" is encouraging people to dress up in rainbow clothes and attend a pride parade based on the line "Don we now our gay apparel". The verse is clearly referring to "calamity/disaster/misfortune", not to moral wrongdoing. Here is the same verse in several examples of more 21st Century-accurate English:
NKJV: "If a trumpet is blown in a city, will not the people be afraid?
If there is calamity in a city, will not the Lord have done it?"
NIV: "When a trumpet sounds in a city,
do not the people tremble?
When disaster comes to a city,
has not the Lord caused it?"
ESV: "Is a trumpet blown in a city,
and the people are not afraid?
Does disaster come to a city,
unless the Lord has done it?"
NASV: "If a trumpet is blown in a city, will the people not tremble?
If a disaster occurs in a city, has the Lord not brought it about?"
Orthodox Jewish Bible: "Shall a shofar be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? Shall there be disaster in a city, and Hashem hath not caused it?"
@@thomasdaniel22 That's a bifurcation fallacy. You're implying that the only choices are "bringing disaster on someone is never morally evil" and "bringing disaster on someone is always morally evil", when in fact the correct fact is that bringing disaster on someone may or may not be morally evil, depending on who is doing so and for what reason. I "undercut" nothing but your satanic tactics of telling blasphemous lies and deliberate deceptions about God supposedly committing moral evils against people.
It is AMAZING to see how James White can't seem to understand that you are presenting what a Calvinistic conclusion would be.
Does he honestly not even realize that those are tongue-in-cheek representations?
Calvinism's determinism basically HAS to say exactly what the letter of James says not to do:
"No one is to say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone."
(Unless you stick to your determinism: because then God IS determining for you to be tempted, even if you concede that God isn't directly tempting.)
Pretty sure James would be shaking his head and disappointed that you can't seem to understand his letter.
If you believe in Calvinistic determinism then you have no right to have a issue with anything anyone says or does. Just keep your mouth shut for you are now finding fault with the work of God.
James White is a prime example of someone who's gotten so smart, that he's ok with being stupid.
The Bible asks the questions should we sin so that grace may abound? If you’re a Calvinist, you have to say yes, even though the Bible says no.
Ugh please elaborate on how you come to that conclusion. As it stands now your statement is void of any understanding of reformed theology.
Calvin's thoughts and that of Bignon, are simply put, absurd, self-defeating, blasphemous (as Wesley declared) and seem to even border on a kind of theological insanity.
When you have to appeal to antimony all the time just to keep your theological bucket from leaking... yes it is a kind of madness.