Mid 24th century: "section 31 managed to remain a secret for 200 years and nobody has known it!" Mid 23rd century: "oh you have a black badge, you of course work for section 31!" Me: "wtf did they do to my star trek?"
@@kouroshmarx8646 they prolly meant the people didn't fully watch the stuff or even if they watched it they forgot when they got the chance to work on it
Georgiou: I have my Section 31 travel cup, my T-shirt, my baseball cap, mouse pad... Saru: What IS Section 31? Georgiou: I can't tell you. It's a secret.
@@Stubbino Anyone can have patches printed up, and doing so is common practice within obscure military units of any kind. Those serve as mementos or status symbols but are not part of uniform nor worn at all.
Honestly, I think the biggest mistake was to make this show a prequel. You could transplant the basic story about 40 or so years after the events of DS9, and I think it would work well enough. Just change the Klingons to some recently discovered (possibly extra-galactic) civilization, then remove Pike and change Michael's backstory. Not only would the holograms, mycelial drive, and section 31 make more sense, but season one's dark tone would then become an outgrowth of the Dominion war and a more militant Starfleet.
@@vinayn9110 - Let's be honest, Star Trek was ruined long before Bad Robot got involved. Enterprise was breaking continuity and shitting on beloved Trek Lore when Kurtzman was producing Xena: Warrior Princess. And before that, it was Voyager.
"Trust me with this Project, I saw every Star Trek Episode. My favourite Characters are Colonel O'Neil and the black Guy with that Worm in his Stomach"
I mean the writers claimed they didn’t think Control was like the Borg when it uses nanomachines to assimilate drones. I honestly don’t think they knew about the world at all.
It's bad when these guys make JJ Abrams looks like a hardcore Trekkie. Say what you want about the 2009 movie, even that showed more love and respect for the franchise than this garbage. At least that movie had the decency to take place in an alternate universe and not fuck with the continuity.
I'm just waiting for STD to bring omega particles and have literally every body on the ship know what they are including the janitors , maintence crews and cooks on ship.
Honestly the coolest thing about Section 31is you can talk to a random citizen of the Federation about certain subjects and it goes like: Obsidian Order, "Oh the Gestapo for Cardassians? Yeah terrifying they torture their own people for being slightly suspicious." Tal Shiar, "Romulan spy organization, yeah. Hope I don't ever end up on their bad side." Section 31, "Who?" Section 31 has been around since the birth of Starfleet and has been almost a galaxy-wide secret because of it's design of few agents with specialized skills. Who work for the Utopian faction and are willing to get their hands absolutely filthy to protect it. You are in for a world of agony if you get in the way and you probably won't even realize you are until one day your tea tastes different. And now that got thrown out the window.
To be fair in Lower Decks they also are openly discussing Section 31, but I guess they are just making fun of the incostencies of the lore, thus if they had at least make the excuse like some kind of terroristic attack or an huge intelligence leak by some rogue faction it would have sellable....hell i can see Mariner pulling that off....or perhaps we found out that Section 14 has subsidize Section 31, I don't know if I am overthinking but somehow I think that section 14 treatment of the poor Starfleet limbless members is more a move to obtain sentient guinea pigs and Section 14 is in fact the United Federation WMD Development Center......pity we never had Garak commenting about Section 31
*"So which timeline are you in?"* "Let's just say I belong to... another branch of the Star Trek canon... our official designation is... STD." *"Never heard of it."*
@@username82765 agreed its a shame they did not go farther into the war and how it completely change starfleet but IMO starfleet would have been wiped out before TOS
@ you must have never served in the arm forces. He reminded me of so many of officers I served under who have been through some real $h!t. A good, kind man harden by war and loss (war with the Borg). Taking on a more pragmatic unless ideological approach in this new war.
second rule of Section 31 is to tell everyone incl family, friends, the bloke down the pub, your old piano teacher, your mistress who doesn't listen to you anymore; about section 31.. without comprising the first rule ofc
I remember at the time thinking that DS9 was an insult to Gene's vision of the future, but now I realise that it's just a different way of exploring it. We see the strength of these characters, and of humanity itself, when it is pushed to it's very limits. STD doesn't. It doesn't show the moral outrage at Section 31 or its tactics, or the desire to fight it. It just shows it as a badass super spy group.
This might be a hot take, but while I love what Gene Roddenberry made, DS9 improved upon the world that TOS and TNG built in many ways. It provided depth and intrigue to the federation, an organization that was largely one dimensional prior to DS9. It challenged the feasibility of the utopian idealized society by asserting that section 31 had been keeping things afloat behind the scenes via less than savory tactics. It explored what a terrible tole large scale war can take on a idealistic organization such as starfleet; an organization who only later in DS9 starts making more militarized starships i.e. Defiant. It also had far less issues with internal consistency than both TOS and TNG. The biggest meme being that depending on the episode or movie, money is either a commenly understood reality in the galaxy or just that thing people used to use that confuses the main cast for a moment.
Yes but no, DS9 S31 is exponentially superior over STD S31 because they acknowledge how spy agencies actually work; they are not overt in their identity, they do not assume an identity which is uniquely distinct; they do their best to look as unassuming and mundane as possible while working with as many assets as possible to serve their mission/agenda.
Deep Space 9 continues to remain the best written Star Trek series imo, and Discovery ironically pin points why, look at the way Discovery portrays Section 31, not just as the worst kept secret in the federation, but as just 'doing the difficult parts' of the Federation's work, they just concede that they're not so great and move on. In DS9 Section 31 shattered the ideals of Deep Space 9's characters, made them question the Federation and what was right and wrong, it was not just intrigue, but questions of values, morals, it was kept in complete secret because by all Federation principles it should not exist, it's not just the 'Space CIA' that butts heads with Starfleet personnel, it was a careful rebuttal to the idea of a completely noble and morally upright utopian superpower, whilst directly challenging the assertions that such a Superpower couldn't ever adhere to morals. By making Section 31 standard form for the Federation, Star Trek Discovery's Federation becomes simply benign and effectively unwilling to uphold their own moral principles, so many of Discovery's characters seem to pretty much wholly tolerate their presence which is not only a striking and far worse revisionism of Gene Roddenberry's vision of humanity, but by extension changes the moral character of star trek's message itself, a series that always taught ends do not justify means suddenly throws up its hands and says "well we gotta do it, cause shits tough", do these people even watch star trek? I dont mind continuity eras so much as the complete assault on Star Trek's morality and character at every level
In Discovery whenever ash is first introduced to section 31 he said I’ve heard rumors but I didn’t think they were true Ironically this video left that part out.
good, we dont need fuckin purists like you, a real trek fan would recognice that EACH trek series was different from another, but i guess its to much to ask for
It has to do with who owns star trek. The company that owned star trek was split into two: The part that owns it, doesn't want to make more trek. The part that doesn't own it does want to make more trek. In order to get the rights to make more trek, they had to agree to make it distinct from trek. Hence the new movie timeline and the various differences present in ST:D
Odo: "If it is Section 31, they've learned to cover their tracks very well". Discovery: Officer wears BIG Black Section 31 badge. A true Trek fan: Laughs hysterically at the juxtaposition of the two scenes AND dies ever so slightly on the inside .....
115 years between the two, a lot has changed. They used to wear badges but they've learned to hide and cover their tracks. Perhaps Discovery will tell us why they they changed?
"Black badges" what a crock. So they wear their secret credentials on their chest now. There are plenty of races with longer lifespans who would remember all these inconsistencies. Jadzia for example through past lives and remembers the Kirk days of the Federation, vullcans, the klingons are shown to live a while because one of Kirk's old enemies (cant remember the name) a Klingon "master" shows up on DS9, etc. Biggest one would be the use of holographic communications everywhere then at some point switching to screens.
It was Kor, Kang and Koloth from TOS who all appeared in DS9. Kor appeared three times. Blood Oath, The Sword of Kahless and Once more unto the breach.
A short list of people who are long-lived enough: Soval T'Pol Jonathan Archer (2112 - 2245) Kang Kor Koloth Dr. McCoy Scotty (Emony - Curzon) Dax Sarek Spock
Section 31 was incompatible with Starfleet canon, but writers decided to add it. Whether something fits in the story is not dependent on whether or not you LIKE it. yes, "Turnabout Intruder" (TOS) and "Threshold" (VOY) are still canon, no matter how terrible they are. DSC is also still canon, regardless of whether you want it to be or not. DSC is simply suffering the same negative backlash that EVERY new Star Trek show did in its first seasons (except Voyager, but its also the only one that didn't really improve much during its run). The TNG and DS9 hate was fierce, and surely we haven't forgotten the hate Enterprise got in its first seasons. But, today's Humans forget things after only 10 years, much less 100.
K1productions +section 31 was added to the starfleet charter in 2161 and its origins are before first contact with the vulcans as earth was interplanetary as early as 2018.
K1productions +sure it is,so much that theyre literality sending discovery into the future.maybe it will show up a thousand yrs from now when canon wont matter.
@@k1productions87 STD is suffering negative backlash because the writing is SHIT, the characters are unlikable, and they wipe their asses with canon like it's a roll of toilet paper.
I feel like you have no idea what you are talking about. The creator of Star Trek has always changed lore and never cared about continuity. The original series isn't even canon according to him and so are more shows and movies. He just did what he wanted and changed the lore accordingly and he advises future creators for the franchise to do the same.
Noticed how much they've wanted Fan's to accept this show but they didn't follow visuals Cannon or even story continuity, it's sad even The Kelvin universe tried harder than this show to at least look like Star trek and the Kelvin Klingons looked more like a Klingon than the STD KlingOrcs
Ds9 was so much smarter and intelligent, intellectually satisfying. Dumbed down modern star trek is depressing and has nothing to do with its Orginal ideas
John Lenin 30 years in the past! You mean like when Trek was actually an intelligent show!?! Instead of this modern dumbed down STD garbage for the stupid masses? You’re a moron.
Ah, back when Star Trek was clever and intelligent. The 31 episodes were some of the best! The hwole mystique surrounding 31 was part of their appeal and what made them interesting. STD however. They're boring and frankly, I can't see much distinction between normal Starfleet and 31 in STD.
They are now extremists stereotypes who are supposed so interesting because they so "badass" and breaking the rules (because rules are for CIS white males), not to mention have all kinds of technology regular Starfleet doesn't have. And you are right, what is the difference between Discovery's Starfleet and Section 31.
@@TheDutchGhost That is the most unfortunate. For a series that is supposedly full of political correctness and criticism of the conservative right, they are giving the message that it is okay for a military force or a government organization to do murally dubious actions. Like not only is acceptable to torture and kill to protect your nation, but it is also "badass" and "sexy."
They’re basically Cerberus from the awful Mass Effect sequels, where instead of being a high-level intelligence agency, they’re basically a much better equipped semi-secret paramilitary organisation. What I want to know who the fuck keeps cramming such organisations into settings where they don’t belong. What’s their appeal?
@@Ebalosus In fairness, Cerberus worked in Mass Effect. They weren't an intelligence agency per se', nor were they that secret. Everyone knew about them. They were a pro-human organisation, they had more in common with Terra Prime. I guess they kinda were a mash of the two if you want to compare. In fairness, Picard ripped off Mass Effect so, maybe that is where the getting their inspiration? I should really play Mass Effect again! Lol :-P
I really don't understand it. Current continuity is: Enterprise Discovery TOS TNG DS9/Voyager (With films inbetween of course) And section 31 started off as a top secret no one knows organisation in Enterprise. Then basically became a household name in discovery then back to top secret nobody knows. Why?!
There isn’t any real sense of consistency and adhering to the Star Trek name, they think it’s just names, species, and organizations without understanding the themes and nuances of it all.
or even put in any real thought into it. A clandestine organization doesn't operate in the open with headquarters. It compartmentalizes & spreads out operations while hiding in plain sight. It uses existing resources rather than fabricating new ones that can be easily traced back to them. Groups that operate in the open aren't for governments like the Federation. They're for the Romulans or Cardassians who wear their totalitarianism on their sleeve.
With one exception: If a 40k inquisitor fucks up badly, the inquisitor gets removed from office / killed (like when first encountering the tyrannids). With section 31, they can fuck up all they want and seem to get away with it.
Section 31 must have been erased from the logs about the same time Starfleet stopped letting women captain ships and the Klingons decided they didn't take hostages.
@@john-lenin and your a troll, the amount of comments where you keep calling others 'InCel' is crazy. Take a chill pill my dude, we all have different opinions and that's okay. Have a good day!
John clearly can't handle a sound argument. Just attacks people without any kind of actual intelligent counter argument, probably because there isn't one!
@@patrickfrost9405 How dare you! I've met many young people who are medically considered to be mentally retarded and not one of them would be as nasty, stupid or dim-witted as that mouth breathing loser.
I am watching DS9 since the corona virus started spreading in the world. And today I watched the Episode "Inquisition" in the 6th season. Thats the episode Section 31 was mentioned the very first time
which also completely shoots STD in the knee and brings it down as BS. Into Darkness no one had a clue about Section 31 until Khan opened his mouth to Kirk.
It also made more sense that 31 stepped up their operations. In the wake of Vulcan (one of the core Fed planets) being obliterated and its race brought to the brink of extinction, it would be expected that 31 would go into absolute overdrive. The Vengeance, superwarp, advanced long-range torpedoes, all of it, designed off of the back of the advances of the Narada and utilized to defend the Federation from a galaxy where absolutely anything could come at them next. And with all of this, they still managed to stay secretive until Marcus spoke to Kirk. I imagine Kelvin Timeline Section 31 was "officially" disbanded after their masterpiece ship ended up wrecking downtown San Francisco and killing thousands. Though, truly disbanding Section 31 would be nearly impossible since it would be insanely difficult to track down its members and confiscate its research and documents.
When Georgio flashed the black badge and Michael recognized the super secret organization. I was like: "of course Burnum knows all about 31 a lowly lieutenant commander (once) that has known more secrets than most admirals!" #marysueburnum
Burnham was a Lt Cmdr, and first officer. She was probably privy to the existence of Section 31. Any officers who knew Tyler didn't blab about it. A frontier doctor not knowing about them 100 years later doesn't bother me.
The issue is no one knew about it, sisko didnt, the romulans didnt even the dominion didnt. Burnham should have no idea about it since she is not a top official of the federation. Also like it is pointed out in the video, they are talking like section 31 is smth everyone knows about and gergiou is literally going around saying section 31 to people
Pretty much ALL of Discovery conflicts with the entire Star Trek world. Including the very basis of the show - that fact that humanity only reached the stars because they stopped bickering and having conflicts between humans. In Discovery they fight all time between each other like school children.
Even Abrams' Star Trek makes more sense than Discovery. You can argue that the timeline split caused by the arrival of the Romulan ship scared the Federation into giving Section 31 greater legitimacy
Well... Sloan and his 2 Security NPCs in the background did wear those black Section 31 Uniforms. It isn't that far of a stretch to add a Logo/Insignia/Combadge thing to a Uniform. Going around flashing it around and people instantly knowing at the sight of the thing "oh that is Section 31, yes i totally know about that!" ... THAT is the stupid part.
Congratulations on having the most retarded UA-cam video comment _!_ FYI, (just ask any real soldier), there is just an absolutely massive galaxy of a difference between wearing a nondescript BDU without any designation or rank and going around flashing shiny canon-shattering badges of sjw'ness. Hate to break it to you, but you're dumb and your point is just utterly pointless! 😉
I mean wearing a black uniform around select people is one thing. Creating an insignia for a branch that isn't supposed to exist is pretty fucking stupid on their part
They are only ever seen wearing the uniform when no one besides the person they are talking to is present. Sloan wore a disguise on Romulus so I doubt they wear their "uniform" in public.
Section 31 in DS9: A creature so secretive that it barely moves a finger above ground for a new threat only ever showing its hand for extreme threats Section 31 in STD: Comperable to a lizard on its sun rock with its agents being known from their intensive use of their shiny badge, and its actions being as hidden as a black spot on a spotless white void
For a secret organization, they SURE do like to talk about it in public alot. Maybe the writers should get a clue and write it like a secret organization. A secret organization would not wear a badge telling everyone who they were. THIS IS SO STUPID!!!!!!!!!
Well, lets not forget, over that same space of time, Starfleet officers forgot what Klingons looked like... and that WASN'T a secret. Unless Kirk's crew neglected to inform Starfleet about their four separate encounters with smooth-headed Klingons, and their sudden difference in appearance a couple decades later.
It's almost like the writers of Discovery don't care about Star Trek lore in the slightest and forgot that the Federation isn't suppose to have a secret police operating in the open with official sanction. I actually liked the concept of Section 31 as it was in DS9 and ENT, after all it's a bit unrealistic to expect an organization like the Federation to keep its position against the major hostile powers that surround it without getting its hands dirty on occasion, even if it disagreed with Roddenberry's vision. But how Discovery does it goes so far against everything that Roddenberry imagined the Federation to be and represent.
Cellulanus I agree. I never liked the concept of Sec. 31 from the get-go. It is a low-hanging fruit for lazy writers and it has more appearances in the shows and film than than even the Borg.
There's a massive difference in the level of writing. On DS9, there was a real sense of mystery to 31. For me the biggest part of that is the question of Sisko's involvement. It always seemed to me that Sisko was in on it. Every time Bashir came to him about 31 Sisko was always like "Yeah you should totally accept that mission they gave you". But they never came out and said it. Discovery just puked section 31 all over the place. It's like they went "We should use Section 31, because Section 31 is cool!' But no one outside of the DS9 writers room ever seemed to understand WHY it was cool,
You know… two of the three Section 31 episodes were great and could have been amazingly ambiguous. After the Romulan episode and Sloan was vaporized, they really should have kept it as “did 31 really exist or was it Sloan’s revenge”? Then, never mention 31 ever again. That would have made it absolutely amazing! …but 31 is a gun a child’s (writers) hand and they can’t resist.
BUT YOU GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!!! Discovery is an experimental ship! So it's okay for everything to be incosistent and super futuristic compared to everything else in the show's universe!!!!!!! YOU GUYSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!! EXPERIMENTAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm withholding judgement until I see it. Admittedly that's what I did with STD, and it turned out to be terrible, but still I think its a bit counter-productive to dismiss it when its not even started filming yet. As fans, all we can do is try to make our voices heard - I think that is happening indirectly via the popularity of the Orville, which is why STD is trying to ret-con its own discontinuities, and is making some attempts to return to the values and tone of older iterations of Trek. Perhaps with the Picard series they'll have learned from their mistakes.
@@monkeymox2544 Haven't you seen him talking about the new series? He has said it won't be the Picard people knew from before, etc., and he's a major SJW in real life and has implied that's what the new show will have in it.
@@MaestroTJS well of course it'll be different, it's set 20 years after nemesis - he will have changed, as will the federation. And I'm very much in favour of social justice, given that that's what Trek has always been about. I hate discovery precisely because it's NOT about morality, or how we can hope to create a better society. It's not about a better future populated by better people, it's about a dark future where humans are still basically shit.
so far there was no real reason for them to even use section 31 in the story , they only threw them into the mix for the name recognition and the cool factor
It's beyond Top Secret. It is a shadow organization. Those who knows of its existence would deny its existence, unless granted special permission. Agents hide in plan sight, but do not show that they have rank or affiliation with any such organization.
@@Hugh_I Yes there is. It is mentioned in DS9 that Section 31 had operated in secret since the charter was drafted and were excellent at covering their tracks as a result. By the time of DS9, knowledge of section 31 is restricted even moreso than the damn Omega Directive. The idea that Sec 31 would proudly reveal themselves constantly around lower level grunts and crew members (not counting geniuses like Bashir) is anti-antithetical to everything built up in DS9 and Enterprise.
@@johnchristina1340 The universe that Discovery is in. After the split of the old Viacom in 2005, CBS acquired the rights to Star Trek. That's like giving someone a car, who doesn't know how to drive stick. They allowed Paramount, under the company Bad Robot, to make Star Trek under an alternate license, that, in order for Paramount to make any merchandising money, had to be at least 25% different from the Star Trek that had come before it. Star Trek 2009, Into Darkness, and Beyond were made under that license. Star Trek Discovery, because it's being made by Paramount, also has to be 25% different to monetize it. The problem is, they tried to use wordplay to convince people that Discovery is in the same timeline as the 1964-2005 shows and movies, when it's nothing of the sort.
@@MKDumas1981 None of that matters unless you own star trek, do you? no you are a troll repeating lines from a youtuber about IP law which you also have no understanding of. Final word goes to who owns the thing so either accept it or move on to something new or start a business or a family or something. No "gotcha" fact is going to change ownership of something. What they do now doesn't affect any enjoyment you had 15 years ago....
Now we know why Pike suffered his radiation “accident” and Michael Burnham was erased from history; they knew too much about Section 31! Seriously, the presentation of Section 31 in Enterprise and STD is just bad writing. The writers on those shows simply aren’t smart enough to pull off the subtle mind fucks within mind fucks that we saw with Section 31 on DS9.
Enterprise is okay. They were still the "skunkworks black ops of Starfleet" (Overlord DVD's words). This whole non-secret secret of Discovery is irritating. Just another example of them taking something they know the original fans like, and making it 25% different.
@Idazmi7 if you are trying to imply that Section 31 manipulated Kirk into carrying out their agenda as it did Bashir, I don't buy it; those sort of psychological tactics would only work on someone who is fundamentally insecure with an underdeveloped ego, like Bashir; Kirk is too self-confident and assertive to be vulnerable to such suasion. If you are suggesting that Kirk would willingly work with Section 31, again, I don't buy it. Kirk would consider Section 31's methods repugnant, and its agents would know that; they would never let Kirk know about their existence because the risk of him exposing them would be too high. If you are suggesting that Spock was working with Section 31, and perhaps tricked Kirk into thinking that the theft of the cloaking device was a Starfleet plan, again, I don't find that plausible. Spock's Vulcan pacifism would make Section 31's 'end justifies the means' approach abhorrent to him as well. Remember how he wanted to frighten Taurus II's primitive native inhabitants rather than attack them directly, during "The Galileo Seven?" There is no way Spock would ever go along with Section 31's callous disregard for sentient life, and its agents would know that they could not entrust knowledge of their existence to him. EDIT: On the other hand, I could buy the idea that Section 31 manipulated a Starfleet admiral into sending the Enterprise on the mission to steal the cloaking device. But then again, the episode did not delve into the behind-the-scenes politics at Starfleet Command that led to the mission, so that would be sheer speculation :)
I loved the old recut at the end. And today I learned that Section 31 (the real Section 31) probably had a hand in the destruction of Romulus. I wonder if they took part in elevating Shinzon or helping him destroy the Senate.
The big thing is it really show the moral disconnect between now and 15-20 years ago, where morality has changed, that in DS9 the were antagonists dare I say villains, and in discovery they are cool to be part of section 31.
because the discovery writers only care about the reference, not actually weaving into the actual universe. its been this way since the first ep: remember the klingons? well they are completely different now. remember spock? he has an adopted sister we never heard about. remember the mirror universe? well now people have crossed over before TOS. section 31 is just the latest casualty.
Well said. DIS writers are like "Hey, here's a reference for the ST nerds to get excited about" and they think they're doing us a favor...when all they're doing is really slapping us upside the face with it and then not understanding why we're not happy. It's like when your family bought you something that was ALMOST what you wanted at Christmas, but not the real thing. And then didn't understand why you weren't happy with the PlayBox 64 instead of a Playstation or N64. Sounded close enough, right? Wrong. It's not just the thing, but all the continuity that goes with that thing. If you're going to play the "make references to previous ST shows" game to try to appease the viewers with nostalgia, don't kill that nostalgia right away by making the viewer go "Wait.....that's not right....none of this is right....this isn't the Star Trek I know!"
@@DECODEDVFX i never mentioned the klingons look(which is terrible btw), i said they were different, as in they are almost a completely different from their portrayal in the rest of the shows. and if you have to bring up star trek V, the least liked movie, to defend michael well then thats on you pal.
This show isn’t written by true fans. They’re people who saw a couple episodes of Star Trek and the Kelvin films and thought they understood the universe.
While there are many plot holes in STD, we don't know what happens in the 100 years separating the two shows. ENT was full of plot holes at first but managed to patch most of them up as well as fixing pre-existing continuity errors before it ended. The story of how they go from just an arm of SFI to a "no such agency" is apparently the plot of the upcoming S31 spin off. All they need to do is have them very publicly fuck up and be officially disbanded.
Except the time period Enterprise took place in was largely unexplored. This was the pre-federation Era and a lot of "plot holes" could be explained away as not being documented correctly (like early contact with Ferengi) or being kept under wraps before the Federation was officially formed. Discovery takes place only a few years before The Original series and thus inconsistencies and plotholes mean a lot more since information from other series was already available to the writers.
Some of the writers worked on Gilmore Girls. If you look on IMDB at what the other writers worked on previously, it is all either teen girl or cop shows. No decent sci fi at all.
@@stevenobrien557 and before best of both worlds Michael Pillar wrote for cops shows and dukes of hazzard, Melinda M. Snodgrass who wrote Measure of a man, Sarek, Tin Man, and so many others had no tv/movie writing experience. Go blow the shitty youtubers you are repeating.
Hilarious, STD really is a joke, they don't care a bit about continuity, canon, or even respect towards Star Trek. At this point the next seasons will probably have Romulans, Delta Quadrant, Augment virus, Q, and why not Founders and Jem'hadars vs the Federation 🤣 PS : Love your clips, keep up the good work 😉
@@billkerman7733 Yes it was, and I wouldn't be surprised STD succeed using it to make another continuity idiocy, they'll probably manage to find a way 😄
The main issue is, that Section31 in Discovery is made for a Teletubby audience. Even the worst of the James Bond movies demands a modicum of intelligence from it's audience. Hell even Dr. Evils organization does.
The people who write and make trek these days aren't actual fans - they just partially read trek wiki entries and write episodes. That's why there is zero continuity in JJ trek and STD.
Star Trek Discovery is NOT in any way anything remotely to do with the Star Trek universe! I'm not saying it's a bad show, I reckon it would be fine as a stand alone show, but it has no place in the actual Star Trek universe.
gosh just because YOU dont want it to be, doesent mean it is that way, canon is what paramount shows on the screen, not what fookin purists want it to be. if you dont like the show, fine but is is star trek. a real trek fan would know this....BECAUSE EVERY STAR TREK SHOW WAS DIFFERENT FROM ANOTHER
You do realize that same exact thing was said when The Next Generation started, and then again with Deep Space Nine, and then said ad nauseum with Enterprise. not only could Starfleet forget about Section 31 in 100 years, people today forget about things in TEN years. I was PART of the DS9 hate bandwagon in its early seasons, so I know damned well how real it was (and swore I would never be that person ever again)
@@peterpeet4061 You are deluding yourself. I doubt you were even alive when TNG first came out. I was, and I saw it for myself. The only difference is, social media as we know it did not exist, so you had to actually get articles expressing such negativity published in newspapers or magazines. This required far more effort than just commenting on a UA-cam or a Facebook, and did not allow the anonymity you enjoy. So no, I am not wrong, and actual legitimate facts back me up. You can go ahead and continue to hide behind your no-avatar no-content UA-cam account while the rest of us adults live in the world of reality.
They couldn't just say it's an alternative universe or actually come up with an original and new sci-fi space series. Let's fuck up the original timeline even more and get endless criticism from fans who destroy all the inconsistencies the writers make.
Exactly. It would still have a lot of problems on it's own, but less than it does now with trying to fit into the rest of canon, for sure. I could accept it much more were it yet another reimagining of the Star Trek mythos.
It's simple: STD simply posits that since all the FANS know about it, all the characters do. They are mixing OOC with IC ... because they're worthless hacks.
Clandestine organizations change over time - the Discovery version of Section 31 may have been less covert than it's DS9 counterpart. Section 31 in the Discovery era seems a bit more like the CIA of today, but later on became a bit more "black hat" with additional autonomy and less visibility.
@@gups4963 I would say they were once a more or less recognized part of Starfleet, and then at some later point they were officially disbanded but unofficially just passed out of view and continued operating without official sanction. Over time knowledge of them sort of faded away, and they went from being as recognized as the CIA is today to something more akin to a secret society or conspiracy theory type of organization.
They very well could have been a subgroup top starfleet's intelligence, but at some point they went rogue. I used the CIA example in another thread. I pretty much agree with everything in this comment. The events of "Into Darkness" and what is on DSC put it into common knowledge that at most needed a little research. If your example happened it was originally represented as a group that Starfleet intel kept secret and had never done anything showy that got their name out. Keep in mind how little we know of what the CIA does, then add in a specialist group that is only lightly overseen. Then they disappear. That knowledge would be held back barring a city blowing up ;)
@@xandercorp6175 Another point in agreement with you is that when organizations are reorganized or phased out they generally change their name- like how the Office of Strategic Services (OSS) became the CIA or in Great Britain the Secret Service Bureau became the Secret Intelligence Service (MI6). Even if Section 31 had been relatively well known but then fallen from grace in the 100 years before DS9 lifespans of enough species (including humans by the 23rd and 24th century) are long enough that it would have had to change its name to avoid recognition even if just from rumors and stories from individuals that were alive during the mid 23rd century.
The only way to save that would be if that entire "section 31" operation were fabricated by 1 person who will purposefully go down and destroy all credibility of claims of a grander conspiracy in the process.
even lazy fanfic has better writing. STD is just a generic sci-fi show with some references to Star Trek and a Star Trek sticker on it ment to cash grab on an amazing franchise and getting people to sub to CBS lol CBS would have to pay me to watch this crap
You do realize that DS9 is over 100 years later, right? Do you remember ANYTHING from 100 years ago? Hell, we can barely keep straight what happened 50 years ago. And while we're on that subject, that same man (Bashir) didn't recognize that "those are Klingons?" even though it was his JOB to know all about anatomy. At the same time he idolized only the most famous Captain in Starfleet history who encountered those smooth-headed Klingons on no less than four separate occasions. If they can forget what Klingons looked like, then an organization that makes it their mission to cover their tracks and remain secret can surely accomplish that goal. When you WANT to find discontinuity, you can find it everywhere. TNG is incompatible with TOS continuity for frak sake. Even Voyager is. Hell, TNG even became incompatible with its OWN continuity when they made First Contact. When you have a 50 year old franchise, there is always discontinuity, mostly because in the early days the writers simply didn't think of these things yet. And if you were to ask these same writers decades later, most of them would tell you to get a life. If you don't want to like the show, then just don't watch it. There is no rule that says you have to. But stop wasting your time trying to convince others to not like it too. I remember when that happened when TNG and DS9 first started. Hell, i was PART of the DS9 hate bandwagon in its early years, and I swore I would never be that person ever again. I don't care for DSC's first season, but I will still defend it like I would for any Star Trek. It is no more of a problem now than it ever was. And when the show starts improving, just like TNG and DS9, and even ENT did, I almost guarantee that most of the detractors will hypocritically turn around and say "What? I never had anything bad to say, I supported it from the beginning" just like they did with TNG and DS9. At least I have the balls to admit I was wrong.
@@peterpeet4061 Actually, even 40 years is a lot in the world of Star Trek, as they claimed we would have interplanetary vessels by the mid 1990's (specifically, the DY-100 class as seen in "Space Seed") when by the time Star Trek was cancelled after its third season, we still hadn't landed on the moon yet.
To some credit some of these differences could be chalked up to the time difference. Remembering STD is placed long before Kirk. There may very well be an explanation within the 150 year gap we are left with. A true separation of section 31 from starfleet may have happened. Making it the rogue organisation seen in DS9. However it could not be chalked up to the interference of Nero in the Kelvin timeline as despite STD being said to be a prequel to the Kelvin timeline. It would technically be a precursor to the old timeline too as Nero isn’t even a sparkle yet. The clips comparing the Kelvin Movies could be disregarded however due to timeline interference and depending on how kind you feel the comparisons made for STD can be disregarded through the shear amount of time between the Section 31’s we see.
-frost- - I’m sure no one in STD outside of starfleet knows of it? And in DS9 it’s not like it’s retroactive. Whether it gets exposed in DS9 has little consequence to STD.
Except Section 31 was established in Enterprise as a completely black organization as well. There is no continuity where Section 31 officers operating openly makes sense.
While I think Discovery is the worse adaptation of Trek I have ever seen. None of what you showed here today is evidence of incompatibility. In fact to me in makes lots of sense. Discovery is a Section 31 mission/project was since the first season, nobody knows acceot those high up in Star Fleet, the Admiral would be high up in Star Fleet, Pike was briefed on the nature of Discovery's original mission so would be privy to the existence of Section 31, The Empress had absolutely zero idea who they were, Tyler knew because he was a member of Discovery's crew and therefore like Pike privy to knowledge of their existence, Archer was before this so the knowledge of their existence would be a rumor Federation wide as he created the Federation and his logs would still exist, and DS9 is centuries after Discovery. That much time would be easy for an organization like Section 31 could easily slip back in the shadows after stepping forward during a time of war.
Section 31 is just a perfect example of Discovery in general. The show wanted to be different in every possible way it could. They wanted to change everything, from the events and characters to every design, to technology and organisations.... Discovery is an insult to Star Trek and like the sequals in Star Wars, it spits on what came before instead of adding something good to the franchise. Lower Decks is 10 times more what Star Trek should be than discovery is and even the Kelvin timeline is better
section 31 was the tal shiar/odsidian order , of starfleet , everyone knew about them , amnd then they went underground and all records were scrubbed , BOOM inconsistancy explained
@@waynehayes912 Uhhhh what? 100 years is not a large gap by ANY means. There would literally still be people alive that had first hand experience with section 31. It would definitely not go from walking through the halls with overt badges, to Nobody has ever heard of them or seen them, in a mere 100 years.
It makes sense that Section 31 has more of a presence in the early years of the Federation, and just because Bashir has never heard of them doesn't mean the top brass of Starfleet didn't. The name 'Section 31' is part of the charter so it is more unusual for people of Starfleet to not know about them.
nope: S31 is not Tal Shiar/Obsidian order: t is an illegal entity, which works for the interest of the Federation, but when we look at Enterprise then DS9, we realize that it is older than the Federation and was probably created at the time of the formation of the World Government of the United Earth. Sloane expresses in DS9 that the Section exists for the Moral Federation to exist, but it is false, inherently, it would comfort the positions of Romulans, Klingons, Cardassians and many people who see the Federation as a distrust. an entity as harmful as the Borg or the Dominion itself, since a validation of Section 31 would be no different from the latter. I also recall that since the time of Archer, they were illegal and in the shade ... in the clear, they were not known, and were already acting, they say it themselves: they exist since well before Starfleet and the government united ..... basically, it's a reliquat of a bygone era, which was grafted on The United Government and then on Starfleet, obviously using propaganda and all that there is in it power to ensure its functioning but also its interests: and they go from peers with those of the Federation, except that they, they think they must work despite the founding values of Starfleet, even if it destroys the latter obviously: they have no responsibilities, and pay no consequences, worse yet, they do not matter to anyone, let alone the Federation and Starfleet. We already know that Section 31 monitors the enemies of the Federation but also the Federation itself and those who compose it (Vulcans, Andorians, ect): be it the high command, the Presidence, ect .... and we also knows that it does not answer for any responsibilities: which shows that it is particularly dangerous for the political and social stability of the Federation: you believe what will happen what if the Vulcans, the Betazoides or the Bajorans learned that the Federation has access to acts such as murder, political assassination, kidnapping, brainwashing, plundering of resources and technologies, going against all existing treaties with various cultures and peoples? . When the Federation was created, Ethics and morality, was not taken as a luxury, as a value that can be set aside when needed, nope, it was a resource to be an integral part of the foundations of the Federation, a pillar of its construction. If the Federation even validated Section 31, it would make it an even more dangerous and corrupt entity than the Terran Empire, except that it would be particularly hypocritical and deceptive: basically "join us or we'll kill you ".... It would totally validate Eddington's speech and make Bashir and Sisko's acts completely useless in DS9. Certainly, we do not win a war with flowers, but Archer and those who founded the Federation, had the idea of creating an entity over the long or very long term, Section 31 acts on terms, without really reflecting on long-term implications (the case of Senator Cretak is particularly obvious, as well as the genocide of the Founders) and especially without taking part in the responsibilities and consequences of her actions: Clearly, Section 31 is irresponsible in its short-term political vision, and it's Starfleet as well as thousands of innocent people who are paying the price for their illegal actions. Sloan balances what he thinks, but that does not mean that he is telling the truth, but it shows in particular how much he is convinced that the Section is doing good, while no .... in terms, in the long run: this will invariably create a schism or even the collapse or corruption of the Federation. This is why the bias of STD is stupid without name, because the Federation in STD is no longer a utopia (and all that this underlies for its creation), but a Counter Utopia or Dystopia. Worse still, STD makes Section 31 particularly stupid: just to see leland be completely dubbed like a moron by a Georgian Emperor: we're talking about a paranoid entity, overseeing all aspects of the Federation and the guys do not know anything about the Talosians? Nah, it's just stupid. So no, Section 31 is not the NSA, the CIA, the Tal Shiar or other entities: it acts for itself, for its own purposes, under the pretext of "protecting the Federation and its interests" .... except that until proven otherwise, she acts mostly for herself, as she oversees the high command of Starfleet, the Presidence, its founding allies and so on ..... For an entity to protect the values of the Federation, it is not acceptable, and that says a lot about the type of people who support this kind of action: it would be a return to the dark hours before the Federation, and a total rejection of all that has It has been built since Archer, basically: Spit on all the sacrifices, on all the dead, on all those who have worked for the peace and prosperity of the Federation.
Sec31 is often utilized only during times of crisis or instability. The Klingon War and recovery might qualify, no? And they only ever mention it openly (the argument made by all the "Never heard of it" responses in the video) when on the Discovery (which was made classified by penalty of life in prison or death, as I recall, leading to secrecy if not total historical loss with time), and the crews that took part via the USS NCC-1701 Enterprise (who would be held to that same standard). Basically, it fits because they popped up when they always said they would, and were lost to time because the only discussions that occurred were with those on clandestine missions and were sworn to secrecy on their lives in a society that no longer held a death penalty. It fits, so suck it up, buttercups.
How? Some species like Vulcans do live that long. Spock was still around while the Dominion War was going on. They might remember those people with special badges who didnt change their name while going underground.
Mid 24th century: "section 31 managed to remain a secret for 200 years and nobody has known it!"
Mid 23rd century: "oh you have a black badge, you of course work for section 31!"
Me: "wtf did they do to my star trek?"
It was probably the same amnesia that made everyone between Star Wars Episodes III and IV forget Jedi were real.
Section 31 represents the CIA/NSA. US intel controls all channels of media now. Just how it is.
@@walterhartman and what exactly does that have to do with what I wrote?
@@kouroshmarx8646 they prolly meant the people didn't fully watch the stuff or even if they watched it they forgot when they got the chance to work on it
Section 31 is the Space Gestapo in STD. Sigh.
Georgiou: I have my Section 31 travel cup, my T-shirt, my baseball cap, mouse pad...
Saru: What IS Section 31?
Georgiou: I can't tell you. It's a secret.
@@Stubbino Thanks for the link. That was cool to read!
I just want section 31 the flamethrower
@@AsianTheDomination Don't forget Section 31 the Lunchbox! Merchandising!
@@Stubbino Anyone can have patches printed up, and doing so is common practice within obscure military units of any kind. Those serve as mementos or status symbols but are not part of uniform nor worn at all.
@@AsianTheDomination Dammit, you beat me to it. Take your upvote and begone.
Honestly, I think the biggest mistake was to make this show a prequel. You could transplant the basic story about 40 or so years after the events of DS9, and I think it would work well enough. Just change the Klingons to some recently discovered (possibly extra-galactic) civilization, then remove Pike and change Michael's backstory. Not only would the holograms, mycelial drive, and section 31 make more sense, but season one's dark tone would then become an outgrowth of the Dominion war and a more militant Starfleet.
You'd still have the problem of the writers being total morons.
Honestly I think the biggest mistake was in ever making this show.
The biggest mistake was to involve Kurtzmann, bad Robot is bad and is ruining Star Trek.
@@vinayn9110 - Let's be honest, Star Trek was ruined long before Bad Robot got involved. Enterprise was breaking continuity and shitting on beloved Trek Lore when Kurtzman was producing Xena: Warrior Princess. And before that, it was Voyager.
Yeah let's go back to the Pussy Picardverse. The Dominion war was biggest joke of Douchetrek of all.
Makes you wonder if all the writers of STD just saw the Delta, a starship, and Spock, and said "yeah, we know all about Star Wars"
We know all about lego ninjago
"Trust me with this Project, I saw every Star Trek Episode. My favourite Characters are Colonel O'Neil and the black Guy with that Worm in his Stomach"
I mean the writers claimed they didn’t think Control was like the Borg when it uses nanomachines to assimilate drones.
I honestly don’t think they knew about the world at all.
@@ahabduennschitz7670 this hurts so much.
It's bad when these guys make JJ Abrams looks like a hardcore Trekkie. Say what you want about the 2009 movie, even that showed more love and respect for the franchise than this garbage. At least that movie had the decency to take place in an alternate universe and not fuck with the continuity.
Star Trek Proper: Section 31? What the hell is that?
Discovery: Oh cool, you're in Section 31! Everybody knows them.
They have recruitment posters everywhere and ads on the future internet.
I'm just waiting for STD to bring omega particles and have literally every body on the ship know what they are including the janitors , maintence crews and cooks on ship.
@@DenverStarkey Omega™️ Cleaning Spray! Removes even the most stubborn of stains
Honestly the coolest thing about Section 31is you can talk to a random citizen of the Federation about certain subjects and it goes like:
Obsidian Order, "Oh the Gestapo for Cardassians? Yeah terrifying they torture their own people for being slightly suspicious."
Tal Shiar, "Romulan spy organization, yeah. Hope I don't ever end up on their bad side."
Section 31, "Who?"
Section 31 has been around since the birth of Starfleet and has been almost a galaxy-wide secret because of it's design of few agents with specialized skills. Who work for the Utopian faction and are willing to get their hands absolutely filthy to protect it. You are in for a world of agony if you get in the way and you probably won't even realize you are until one day your tea tastes different.
And now that got thrown out the window.
To be fair in Lower Decks they also are openly discussing Section 31, but I guess they are just making fun of the incostencies of the lore, thus if they had at least make the excuse like some kind of terroristic attack or an huge intelligence leak by some rogue faction it would have sellable....hell i can see Mariner pulling that off....or perhaps we found out that Section 14 has subsidize Section 31, I don't know if I am overthinking but somehow I think that section 14 treatment of the poor Starfleet limbless members is more a move to obtain sentient guinea pigs and Section 14 is in fact the United Federation WMD Development Center......pity we never had Garak commenting about Section 31
*"So which timeline are you in?"*
"Let's just say I belong to... another branch of the Star Trek canon... our official designation is... STD."
*"Never heard of it."*
Underrated comment
We keep a low profile
"Wish I never heard of it."
Your designation is . . . *watches an episode* AIDS confirmed.
"STD? It sounds irritating, unpleasant and something like a groin-oriented, flesh-eating virus..."
Man I miss DS9. Brilliant, indepth storytelling.
no it wasn't lol half the seasons are full of boring filler
@@Cheese_Boi1986 there was definitely filler episodes and almost the entire season of filler near the end. However, when it was good it was GREAT!!!!
@@username82765 agreed its a shame they did not go farther into the war and how it completely change starfleet but IMO starfleet would have been wiped out before TOS
@ you must have never served in the arm forces. He reminded me of so many of officers I served under who have been through some real $h!t. A good, kind man harden by war and loss (war with the Borg). Taking on a more pragmatic unless ideological approach in this new war.
@ Acting is subjective and my life experiences made me enjoy his portrayal of Commander Sisko. That's it. Calm down it's just an actor from a show.
"Because nothing says 'secret agency' like carrying around a friggin' badge"- bowlestrek
Makes interrogation easier, once caught. "I'm not a spy". 'And I'm not a tailor...'
Section 31 is incompatible with everything. The first rule of Section 31 is we don't talk about Section 31.
first rule of section 31 is if you even think about breathing a whisper about it you will wind up in a transporter accident.
theloniousMac There is no section 31! That’s the real secret!
Section 31 is bad writing.
second rule of Section 31 is to tell everyone incl family, friends, the bloke down the pub, your old piano teacher, your mistress who doesn't listen to you anymore; about section 31.. without comprising the first rule ofc
Isn't that fight club?
I remember at the time thinking that DS9 was an insult to Gene's vision of the future, but now I realise that it's just a different way of exploring it. We see the strength of these characters, and of humanity itself, when it is pushed to it's very limits. STD doesn't. It doesn't show the moral outrage at Section 31 or its tactics, or the desire to fight it. It just shows it as a badass super spy group.
This might be a hot take, but while I love what Gene Roddenberry made, DS9 improved upon the world that TOS and TNG built in many ways. It provided depth and intrigue to the federation, an organization that was largely one dimensional prior to DS9. It challenged the feasibility of the utopian idealized society by asserting that section 31 had been keeping things afloat behind the scenes via less than savory tactics. It explored what a terrible tole large scale war can take on a idealistic organization such as starfleet; an organization who only later in DS9 starts making more militarized starships i.e. Defiant. It also had far less issues with internal consistency than both TOS and TNG. The biggest meme being that depending on the episode or movie, money is either a commenly understood reality in the galaxy or just that thing people used to use that confuses the main cast for a moment.
Yes but no, DS9 S31 is exponentially superior over STD S31 because they acknowledge how spy agencies actually work; they are not overt in their identity, they do not assume an identity which is uniquely distinct; they do their best to look as unassuming and mundane as possible while working with as many assets as possible to serve their mission/agenda.
I thought the same about Enterprise, but looking back, man It wasn't any where near as bad as Discovery.
Deep Space 9 continues to remain the best written Star Trek series imo, and Discovery ironically pin points why, look at the way Discovery portrays Section 31, not just as the worst kept secret in the federation, but as just 'doing the difficult parts' of the Federation's work, they just concede that they're not so great and move on. In DS9 Section 31 shattered the ideals of Deep Space 9's characters, made them question the Federation and what was right and wrong, it was not just intrigue, but questions of values, morals, it was kept in complete secret because by all Federation principles it should not exist, it's not just the 'Space CIA' that butts heads with Starfleet personnel, it was a careful rebuttal to the idea of a completely noble and morally upright utopian superpower, whilst directly challenging the assertions that such a Superpower couldn't ever adhere to morals.
By making Section 31 standard form for the Federation, Star Trek Discovery's Federation becomes simply benign and effectively unwilling to uphold their own moral principles, so many of Discovery's characters seem to pretty much wholly tolerate their presence which is not only a striking and far worse revisionism of Gene Roddenberry's vision of humanity, but by extension changes the moral character of star trek's message itself, a series that always taught ends do not justify means suddenly throws up its hands and says "well we gotta do it, cause shits tough", do these people even watch star trek? I dont mind continuity eras so much as the complete assault on Star Trek's morality and character at every level
In Discovery whenever ash is first introduced to section 31 he said I’ve heard rumors but I didn’t think they were true Ironically this video left that part out.
@@jonathanking9954 But Star Trek Discovery still makes Section 31 seem like a well known rumor rather than a top secret, rogue group within Starfleet.
My thoughts on STD: “It’s a FAAAAAAKE!”
Best episode of DS9.
You win the internet for today my friend! Oh that made me laugh.
@@pittland44 you have a fake STD sorry about that
DanTastic I second that.
"It's a made up tale, a total fabrication"
Star Trek: Discovery?.....Never heard of it.
A Netflix Series
@@darthstorm6924 u didn't get the joke did u?
Yeah, who’s got the worst Trek series now?!
good, we dont need fuckin purists like you, a real trek fan would recognice that EACH trek series was different from another, but i guess its to much to ask for
oh, how I wish that were true...sigh
Who else gets the feeling that the writers just look up facts on Memory-Alpha and Memory-Beta and regurgitate them in the scripts?
they seem not to read them all the way through though. just the first 2-3 lines and ignore the rest
Let’s be honest, a roomful of monkeys on keyboards could write better episodes than the ‘professional’ writers at STD could ever do.
@TheBobBrom This is probably closer to reality, yes.
It has to do with who owns star trek. The company that owned star trek was split into two: The part that owns it, doesn't want to make more trek. The part that doesn't own it does want to make more trek. In order to get the rights to make more trek, they had to agree to make it distinct from trek. Hence the new movie timeline and the various differences present in ST:D
Barely two seasons and they’ve already f’d up canon worse than my show!
Odo: "If it is Section 31, they've learned to cover their tracks very well".
Discovery: Officer wears BIG Black Section 31 badge.
A true Trek fan: Laughs hysterically at the juxtaposition of the two scenes AND dies ever so slightly on the inside .....
They don't wear those badges. Have you actually watched it?
@@Cupit29 nope why would he when he can ride the hate train in order to sound cool which is what alot of people are doing
115 years between the two, a lot has changed. They used to wear badges but they've learned to hide and cover their tracks. Perhaps Discovery will tell us why they they changed?
@@mathiasadderley2988 I've been thinking that too. I wasn't exactly keen on Discovery at first either, but I kept watching and it's grown on me.
John Chilton come to think about it, JJ did a good job on Section 31..
"Black badges" what a crock. So they wear their secret credentials on their chest now. There are plenty of races with longer lifespans who would remember all these inconsistencies. Jadzia for example through past lives and remembers the Kirk days of the Federation, vullcans, the klingons are shown to live a while because one of Kirk's old enemies (cant remember the name) a Klingon "master" shows up on DS9, etc. Biggest one would be the use of holographic communications everywhere then at some point switching to screens.
It was Kor, Kang and Koloth from TOS who all appeared in DS9.
Kor appeared three times. Blood Oath, The Sword of Kahless and Once more unto the breach.
Black badges? That's racist.
@@burdickd2 black alert is worse
A short list of people who are long-lived enough:
Soval
T'Pol
Jonathan Archer (2112 - 2245)
Kang
Kor
Koloth
Dr. McCoy
Scotty
(Emony - Curzon) Dax
Sarek
Spock
section 31, supposed to allow them to operate as though they arent part of the federation.... has federation symbol shaped badges.
dumb
as
helll
I like it when Bashir starts yelling at non-mutants.
Before he took over the league of shadows (with Section 31 help, of course).
"Non mutants" fucking great
@@scarface1138 lol
Star trek discovery is incompatible with starfleet canon period.
Section 31 was incompatible with Starfleet canon, but writers decided to add it. Whether something fits in the story is not dependent on whether or not you LIKE it. yes, "Turnabout Intruder" (TOS) and "Threshold" (VOY) are still canon, no matter how terrible they are. DSC is also still canon, regardless of whether you want it to be or not.
DSC is simply suffering the same negative backlash that EVERY new Star Trek show did in its first seasons (except Voyager, but its also the only one that didn't really improve much during its run). The TNG and DS9 hate was fierce, and surely we haven't forgotten the hate Enterprise got in its first seasons.
But, today's Humans forget things after only 10 years, much less 100.
K1productions +section 31 was added to the starfleet charter in 2161 and its origins are before first contact with the vulcans as earth was interplanetary as early as 2018.
K1productions +sure it is,so much that theyre literality sending discovery into the future.maybe it will show up a thousand yrs from now when canon wont matter.
@@k1productions87 STD is suffering negative backlash because the writing is SHIT, the characters are unlikable, and they wipe their asses with canon like it's a roll of toilet paper.
I feel like you have no idea what you are talking about. The creator of Star Trek has always changed lore and never cared about continuity. The original series isn't even canon according to him and so are more shows and movies. He just did what he wanted and changed the lore accordingly and he advises future creators for the franchise to do the same.
Noticed how much they've wanted Fan's to accept this show but they didn't follow visuals Cannon or even story continuity, it's sad even The Kelvin universe tried harder than this show to at least look like Star trek and the Kelvin Klingons looked more like a Klingon than the STD KlingOrcs
Ds9 was so much smarter and intelligent, intellectually satisfying.
Dumbed down modern star trek is depressing and has nothing to do with its Orginal ideas
Thanks for the douchebag InCel perspective cretin. You're a middle-aged loser living 30 years in the past.
@@john-lenin whatever, I'm no dumb fuck like you that's for certain.
John Lenin 30 years in the past! You mean like when Trek was actually an intelligent show!?! Instead of this modern dumbed down STD garbage for the stupid masses?
You’re a moron.
@DevMag 52 not really, you are just stupid as fuck
DS9 is still IMO the best sci-fi show that exists.
Ah, back when Star Trek was clever and intelligent. The 31 episodes were some of the best! The hwole mystique surrounding 31 was part of their appeal and what made them interesting. STD however. They're boring and frankly, I can't see much distinction between normal Starfleet and 31 in STD.
They are now extremists stereotypes who are supposed so interesting because they so "badass" and breaking the rules (because rules are for CIS white males), not to mention have all kinds of technology regular Starfleet doesn't have.
And you are right, what is the difference between Discovery's Starfleet and Section 31.
@@TheDutchGhost That is the most unfortunate. For a series that is supposedly full of political correctness and criticism of the conservative right, they are giving the message that it is okay for a military force or a government organization to do murally dubious actions.
Like not only is acceptable to torture and kill to protect your nation, but it is also "badass" and "sexy."
They’re basically Cerberus from the awful Mass Effect sequels, where instead of being a high-level intelligence agency, they’re basically a much better equipped semi-secret paramilitary organisation.
What I want to know who the fuck keeps cramming such organisations into settings where they don’t belong. What’s their appeal?
@@Ebalosus In fairness, Cerberus worked in Mass Effect. They weren't an intelligence agency per se', nor were they that secret. Everyone knew about them. They were a pro-human organisation, they had more in common with Terra Prime. I guess they kinda were a mash of the two if you want to compare.
In fairness, Picard ripped off Mass Effect so, maybe that is where the getting their inspiration?
I should really play Mass Effect again! Lol :-P
I really don't understand it. Current continuity is:
Enterprise
Discovery
TOS
TNG
DS9/Voyager
(With films inbetween of course)
And section 31 started off as a top secret no one knows organisation in Enterprise. Then basically became a household name in discovery then back to top secret nobody knows.
Why?!
There isn’t any real sense of consistency and adhering to the Star Trek name, they think it’s just names, species, and organizations without understanding the themes and nuances of it all.
Continuity isn’t consistent.
Every time time travel takes place, a new continuity is created.
The moment you start to think about an STD plot, the whole thing collapses into a giant black hole of stupidity.
This highlights my issues concerning the Section 31 plotline in STD. It is almost as if they have never watched any of the source material at all.
or even put in any real thought into it. A clandestine organization doesn't operate in the open with headquarters. It compartmentalizes & spreads out operations while hiding in plain sight. It uses existing resources rather than fabricating new ones that can be easily traced back to them.
Groups that operate in the open aren't for governments like the Federation. They're for the Romulans or Cardassians who wear their totalitarianism on their sleeve.
this entire show is just poorly written fan-fiction
Written by low-I.Q. SJW non-fans.
Star trek fan fiction written by an actual fan would be way more respectful to the previous shows than this.
Yes that's what Discovery reads like, written by people who only see how 'popular' Star Trek is and thus how much money it can make them
*ahem* axanar.
It's not even fan fiction. It's some other show they just slapped the Star Trek name on...
They turned Section 31 into the Warhammer 40,000's Imperial Inquisition with the whole throwing around the rosette.
With one exception: If a 40k inquisitor fucks up badly, the inquisitor gets removed from office / killed (like when first encountering the tyrannids).
With section 31, they can fuck up all they want and seem to get away with it.
When someone asks me a Star Trek question I sometimes just feel like Picard... confused by all those timelines.
It's easy to remember: The Pussy Picardverse (and its spinoffs) are for InCels.
only realy confusuin is Discovery all the other shows where pretty much spot on
Section 31 must have been erased from the logs about the same time Starfleet stopped letting women captain ships and the Klingons decided they didn't take hostages.
Another InCel gets triggered! You really are a fucking loser.
@@john-lenin and your a troll, the amount of comments where you keep calling others 'InCel' is crazy. Take a chill pill my dude, we all have different opinions and that's okay. Have a good day!
John clearly can't handle a sound argument. Just attacks people without any kind of actual intelligent counter argument, probably because there isn't one!
@@john-lenin lol, your troll is ineffective and sophomoric...you really should try harder if you want to trigger someone...loser.
@@patrickfrost9405 How dare you! I've met many young people who are medically considered to be mentally retarded and not one of them would be as nasty, stupid or dim-witted as that mouth breathing loser.
I can't continue watching this because it will just make me want to watch DS9 for the 13th time.
Watch it again!
I am watching DS9 since the corona virus started spreading in the world. And today I watched the Episode "Inquisition" in the 6th season. Thats the episode Section 31 was mentioned the very first time
"Our heroes don't sneak around." - Gene Roddenberry
Gene woukd have hated the very idea of section 31
@@mrizwan7566 Tough, because it is one the best parts of the star trek universe.
I completely forgot into darkness has a section 31 reference
which also completely shoots STD in the knee and brings it down as BS. Into Darkness no one had a clue about Section 31 until Khan opened his mouth to Kirk.
It also made more sense that 31 stepped up their operations. In the wake of Vulcan (one of the core Fed planets) being obliterated and its race brought to the brink of extinction, it would be expected that 31 would go into absolute overdrive. The Vengeance, superwarp, advanced long-range torpedoes, all of it, designed off of the back of the advances of the Narada and utilized to defend the Federation from a galaxy where absolutely anything could come at them next. And with all of this, they still managed to stay secretive until Marcus spoke to Kirk.
I imagine Kelvin Timeline Section 31 was "officially" disbanded after their masterpiece ship ended up wrecking downtown San Francisco and killing thousands. Though, truly disbanding Section 31 would be nearly impossible since it would be insanely difficult to track down its members and confiscate its research and documents.
When Georgio flashed the black badge and Michael recognized the super secret organization. I was like: "of course Burnum knows all about 31 a lowly lieutenant commander (once) that has known more secrets than most admirals!" #marysueburnum
Burnham was a Lt Cmdr, and first officer. She was probably privy to the existence of Section 31. Any officers who knew Tyler didn't blab about it. A frontier doctor not knowing about them 100 years later doesn't bother me.
The issue is no one knew about it, sisko didnt, the romulans didnt even the dominion didnt. Burnham should have no idea about it since she is not a top official of the federation. Also like it is pointed out in the video, they are talking like section 31 is smth everyone knows about and gergiou is literally going around saying section 31 to people
I don’t think you know what a marry sue is
Pretty much ALL of Discovery conflicts with the entire Star Trek world. Including the very basis of the show - that fact that humanity only reached the stars because they stopped bickering and having conflicts between humans. In Discovery they fight all time between each other like school children.
Even Abrams' Star Trek makes more sense than Discovery. You can argue that the timeline split caused by the arrival of the Romulan ship scared the Federation into giving Section 31 greater legitimacy
Ikr. What an irony, yet the Abram movies were better than STD in my opinion
Well... Sloan and his 2 Security NPCs in the background did wear those black Section 31 Uniforms.
It isn't that far of a stretch to add a Logo/Insignia/Combadge thing to a Uniform.
Going around flashing it around and people instantly knowing at the sight of the thing "oh that is Section 31, yes i totally know about that!" ... THAT is the stupid part.
Congratulations on having the most retarded UA-cam video comment _!_ FYI, (just ask any real soldier), there is just an absolutely massive galaxy of a difference between wearing a nondescript BDU without any designation or rank and going around flashing shiny canon-shattering badges of sjw'ness. Hate to break it to you, but you're dumb and your point is just utterly pointless! 😉
I mean wearing a black uniform around select people is one thing. Creating an insignia for a branch that isn't supposed to exist is pretty fucking stupid on their part
They are only ever seen wearing the uniform when no one besides the person they are talking to is present. Sloan wore a disguise on Romulus so I doubt they wear their "uniform" in public.
Discovery had section 31 security on board at the start.
Yes but the DS9 folks didn't wear black badges and so blended in seamlessly with neonazi rallies.
Section 31 in DS9: A creature so secretive that it barely moves a finger above ground for a new threat only ever showing its hand for extreme threats
Section 31 in STD: Comperable to a lizard on its sun rock with its agents being known from their intensive use of their shiny badge, and its actions being as hidden as a black spot on a spotless white void
It's amazing how much better a created narrative can be if you spend more than two minutes thinking about it ahead of time. Miss you DS9!
There was supposed to be a Section 31 spinoff staring Michelle Yeoh. I really hope it doesn’t happen.
Discovery is based over 100 years before DS9. DS9 crew not knowing about section 31 doesn't break continuity.
But site to site transport being done casually does, them using the wrong warp scale does. Spocks sister does. Half the damn show does.
I like that in Discovery, we've got the Gestapo in space. Just flash a badge and everyone shuts up and does what they want.
"That torpedo did not self destruct, you heard it strike the vessel. You heard the vessel break up. And I.....was never here." #redoctober
Didn't know Section 31 kills jews...
Discovery writer's room: "Continuity....never heard of it."
Secret organisation that everyone has heard of, hmmmm….
Was DIS is set 120 before ds9, things could have changed
"We deal with them... quietly" meanwhile in in STD they flash it around like the FBI badge on a bad crime show.
For a secret organization, they SURE do like to talk about it in public alot. Maybe the writers should get a clue and write it like a secret organization. A secret organization would not wear a badge telling everyone who they were. THIS IS SO STUPID!!!!!!!!!
Well, lets not forget, over that same space of time, Starfleet officers forgot what Klingons looked like... and that WASN'T a secret. Unless Kirk's crew neglected to inform Starfleet about their four separate encounters with smooth-headed Klingons, and their sudden difference in appearance a couple decades later.
@@k1productions87 Maybe those aliens from TNG with the memory erasure rays did a drive-by test on Earth during the early days of the Federation.
The incompetency of NuTrek writers...
It's almost like the writers of Discovery don't care about Star Trek lore in the slightest and forgot that the Federation isn't suppose to have a secret police operating in the open with official sanction.
I actually liked the concept of Section 31 as it was in DS9 and ENT, after all it's a bit unrealistic to expect an organization like the Federation to keep its position against the major hostile powers that surround it without getting its hands dirty on occasion, even if it disagreed with Roddenberry's vision. But how Discovery does it goes so far against everything that Roddenberry imagined the Federation to be and represent.
Cellulanus I agree. I never liked the concept of Sec. 31 from the get-go. It is a low-hanging fruit for lazy writers and it has more appearances in the shows and film than than even the Borg.
Yes indeed - the idea that a secret group would have special badges is absurd. Nor would they go around casually saying that they worked for it.
Very true…good conspiracies don’t have names, either. Section 31 “swag”…I can’t imagine.
There's a massive difference in the level of writing. On DS9, there was a real sense of mystery to 31. For me the biggest part of that is the question of Sisko's involvement. It always seemed to me that Sisko was in on it. Every time Bashir came to him about 31 Sisko was always like "Yeah you should totally accept that mission they gave you". But they never came out and said it. Discovery just puked section 31 all over the place. It's like they went "We should use Section 31, because Section 31 is cool!' But no one outside of the DS9 writers room ever seemed to understand WHY it was cool,
Star Trek Discovery is Incompatible in general. At least for me.
You know… two of the three Section 31 episodes were great and could have been amazingly ambiguous. After the Romulan episode and Sloan was vaporized, they really should have kept it as “did 31 really exist or was it Sloan’s revenge”? Then, never mention 31 ever again. That would have made it absolutely amazing!
…but 31 is a gun a child’s (writers) hand and they can’t resist.
BUT YOU GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!!! Discovery is an experimental ship! So it's okay for everything to be incosistent and super futuristic compared to everything else in the show's universe!!!!!!! YOU GUYSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!! EXPERIMENTAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'd sooner watch a 12-hour loop of Picard tapping LaForge on the shoulder than what the Picard series is likely to be.
I'm withholding judgement until I see it. Admittedly that's what I did with STD, and it turned out to be terrible, but still I think its a bit counter-productive to dismiss it when its not even started filming yet. As fans, all we can do is try to make our voices heard - I think that is happening indirectly via the popularity of the Orville, which is why STD is trying to ret-con its own discontinuities, and is making some attempts to return to the values and tone of older iterations of Trek. Perhaps with the Picard series they'll have learned from their mistakes.
@@monkeymox2544 Haven't you seen him talking about the new series? He has said it won't be the Picard people knew from before, etc., and he's a major SJW in real life and has implied that's what the new show will have in it.
Its Picard so at worst just accept it as a different universe Picard if it isnt good.
@@MaestroTJS well of course it'll be different, it's set 20 years after nemesis - he will have changed, as will the federation. And I'm very much in favour of social justice, given that that's what Trek has always been about. I hate discovery precisely because it's NOT about morality, or how we can hope to create a better society. It's not about a better future populated by better people, it's about a dark future where humans are still basically shit.
@@monkeymox2544 social justice Marxism
Deep Space 9 was so damn good. Section 31 is fascinating there. I almost started watching STD for Section 31 then heard what a shitshow they made it.
so far there was no real reason for them to even use section 31 in the story , they only threw them into the mix for the name recognition and the cool factor
The first rule of section 31: tell everyone about section 31!
You know just to spread the rumour and get the word of mouth going that there is a secret elite called Section 31.
Section 31 is supposed to be Top Secret. They just flash their badges and brag abut being 31.
It's beyond Top Secret. It is a shadow organization. Those who knows of its existence would deny its existence, unless granted special permission. Agents hide in plan sight, but do not show that they have rank or affiliation with any such organization.
@@conroypaw it is that way, but 100 years later. There's no canon for section 31 during the discovery / TOS time period. Things can change.
@@Hugh_I Yes there is. It is mentioned in DS9 that Section 31 had operated in secret since the charter was drafted and were excellent at covering their tracks as a result. By the time of DS9, knowledge of section 31 is restricted even moreso than the damn Omega Directive. The idea that Sec 31 would proudly reveal themselves constantly around lower level grunts and crew members (not counting geniuses like Bashir) is anti-antithetical to everything built up in DS9 and Enterprise.
prime is not canon. prime is about money. canon is about the fans
What's prime?
@@johnchristina1340 The universe that Discovery is in.
After the split of the old Viacom in 2005, CBS acquired the rights to Star Trek. That's like giving someone a car, who doesn't know how to drive stick. They allowed Paramount, under the company Bad Robot, to make Star Trek under an alternate license, that, in order for Paramount to make any merchandising money, had to be at least 25% different from the Star Trek that had come before it. Star Trek 2009, Into Darkness, and Beyond were made under that license. Star Trek Discovery, because it's being made by Paramount, also has to be 25% different to monetize it. The problem is, they tried to use wordplay to convince people that Discovery is in the same timeline as the 1964-2005 shows and movies, when it's nothing of the sort.
@@MKDumas1981 I thought it was called something else. The word prime just sounded weird to me. That's what I really meant.
@@MKDumas1981 true and sad
@@MKDumas1981 None of that matters unless you own star trek, do you? no you are a troll repeating lines from a youtuber about IP law which you also have no understanding of. Final word goes to who owns the thing so either accept it or move on to something new or start a business or a family or something. No "gotcha" fact is going to change ownership of something. What they do now doesn't affect any enjoyment you had 15 years ago....
Love the ending
:D it's so funny ahah
Now we know why Pike suffered his radiation “accident” and Michael Burnham was erased from history; they knew too much about Section 31! Seriously, the presentation of Section 31 in Enterprise and STD is just bad writing. The writers on those shows simply aren’t smart enough to pull off the subtle mind fucks within mind fucks that we saw with Section 31 on DS9.
Enterprise is okay. They were still the "skunkworks black ops of Starfleet" (Overlord DVD's words). This whole non-secret secret of Discovery is irritating. Just another example of them taking something they know the original fans like, and making it 25% different.
Ever seen _The Enterprise Incident?_
@Idazmi7 yes, many times. Why do you ask?
@@Martiandawn
Rewatch it with DS9's Section 31 in the back of your mind.
@Idazmi7 if you are trying to imply that Section 31 manipulated Kirk into carrying out their agenda as it did Bashir, I don't buy it; those sort of psychological tactics would only work on someone who is fundamentally insecure with an underdeveloped ego, like Bashir; Kirk is too self-confident and assertive to be vulnerable to such suasion. If you are suggesting that Kirk would willingly work with Section 31, again, I don't buy it. Kirk would consider Section 31's methods repugnant, and its agents would know that; they would never let Kirk know about their existence because the risk of him exposing them would be too high.
If you are suggesting that Spock was working with Section 31, and perhaps tricked Kirk into thinking that the theft of the cloaking device was a Starfleet plan, again, I don't find that plausible. Spock's Vulcan pacifism would make Section 31's 'end justifies the means' approach abhorrent to him as well. Remember how he wanted to frighten Taurus II's primitive native inhabitants rather than attack them directly, during "The Galileo Seven?" There is no way Spock would ever go along with Section 31's callous disregard for sentient life, and its agents would know that they could not entrust knowledge of their existence to him.
EDIT: On the other hand, I could buy the idea that Section 31 manipulated a Starfleet admiral into sending the Enterprise on the mission to steal the cloaking device. But then again, the episode did not delve into the behind-the-scenes politics at Starfleet Command that led to the mission, so that would be sheer speculation :)
Remember when section 31 was ultra secret and devious? Discovery doesn't
I loved the old recut at the end. And today I learned that Section 31 (the real Section 31) probably had a hand in the destruction of Romulus.
I wonder if they took part in elevating Shinzon or helping him destroy the Senate.
You mean an average doctor in Starfleet does not know section 31!! But captains and first officers do? THE HORROR!
To be fair, virtually nothing about STD is compatible with the rest of trek.
Same exact thing was said about TNG, DS9 and especially ENT when they first started
The big thing is it really show the moral disconnect between now and 15-20 years ago, where morality has changed, that in DS9 the were antagonists dare I say villains, and in discovery they are cool to be part of section 31.
That ending will be the new Picard show, just trust me.
ahah
that ending was better than the entire Picard show
The Section 31 badges is the stupidest thing in the world.
because the discovery writers only care about the reference, not actually weaving into the actual universe. its been this way since the first ep: remember the klingons? well they are completely different now. remember spock? he has an adopted sister we never heard about. remember the mirror universe? well now people have crossed over before TOS. section 31 is just the latest casualty.
Well said. DIS writers are like "Hey, here's a reference for the ST nerds to get excited about" and they think they're doing us a favor...when all they're doing is really slapping us upside the face with it and then not understanding why we're not happy.
It's like when your family bought you something that was ALMOST what you wanted at Christmas, but not the real thing. And then didn't understand why you weren't happy with the PlayBox 64 instead of a Playstation or N64. Sounded close enough, right? Wrong.
It's not just the thing, but all the continuity that goes with that thing. If you're going to play the "make references to previous ST shows" game to try to appease the viewers with nostalgia, don't kill that nostalgia right away by making the viewer go "Wait.....that's not right....none of this is right....this isn't the Star Trek I know!"
Good job old star trek never changed the way klingons looked or introduce a sibling Spock never mentioned before... Wait a minute.
@@DECODEDVFX i never mentioned the klingons look(which is terrible btw), i said they were different, as in they are almost a completely different from their portrayal in the rest of the shows. and if you have to bring up star trek V, the least liked movie, to defend michael well then thats on you pal.
Well, that really baffled me in discovery as well. How does everyone just FUCKING KNOW what section 31 is ?
Easy explanation, it's just not a very good show.
This show isn’t written by true fans. They’re people who saw a couple episodes of Star Trek and the Kelvin films and thought they understood the universe.
At least with JJ's movies you have the excuse of it being an entirely different timeline
"New Trek has a hard on for Section 31" -Rich Evans
Essentially skip over Star Trek Discovery and pretend it never existed 🙂
While there are many plot holes in STD, we don't know what happens in the 100 years separating the two shows. ENT was full of plot holes at first but managed to patch most of them up as well as fixing pre-existing continuity errors before it ended. The story of how they go from just an arm of SFI to a "no such agency" is apparently the plot of the upcoming S31 spin off.
All they need to do is have them very publicly fuck up and be officially disbanded.
Except the time period Enterprise took place in was largely unexplored. This was the pre-federation Era and a lot of "plot holes" could be explained away as not being documented correctly (like early contact with Ferengi) or being kept under wraps before the Federation was officially formed. Discovery takes place only a few years before The Original series and thus inconsistencies and plotholes mean a lot more since information from other series was already available to the writers.
STD is not Star Trek. Its Gilmore Girls in space.
Gilmore Girls at least was capable of giving you the feels.
Some of the writers worked on Gilmore Girls. If you look on IMDB at what the other writers worked on previously, it is all either teen girl or cop shows. No decent sci fi at all.
Hey, don’t drag the awesome gilmore girls into this!
@@stevenobrien557 and before best of both worlds Michael Pillar wrote for cops shows and dukes of hazzard, Melinda M. Snodgrass who wrote Measure of a man, Sarek, Tin Man, and so many others had no tv/movie writing experience. Go blow the shitty youtubers you are repeating.
That's so fucking hilarious! InCels can make jokes. Who knew. Crawl back into your basement.
Truth be told, Porthos is Section 31.
Kurtzman trek is not real trek
I missed the part where Sloan showed his shitty little 2-color badge. Oh right, because it didn’t happen.
Hilarious, STD really is a joke, they don't care a bit about continuity, canon, or even respect towards Star Trek.
At this point the next seasons will probably have Romulans, Delta Quadrant, Augment virus, Q, and why not Founders and Jem'hadars vs the Federation 🤣
PS : Love your clips, keep up the good work 😉
they'll also show the Ferengi but make their ears 25% bigger , and the Jem'hadar will be pink and an all female species who lay eggs
@@MajorGrin
Fem'hadars then, and they will be the masters, founders will be called Patriarchs etc...
I totally see it coming now 😄
@@billkerman7733
Yes it was, and I wouldn't be surprised STD succeed using it to make another continuity idiocy, they'll probably manage to find a way 😄
Don't forget about the Borg. Who the Federation learn the value of unquestioning collectivism from.
And we had sound waves in space lol wtf is happening? lol
The main issue is, that Section31 in Discovery is made for a Teletubby audience. Even the worst of the James Bond movies demands a modicum of intelligence from it's audience. Hell even Dr. Evils organization does.
The people who write and make trek these days aren't actual fans - they just partially read trek wiki entries and write episodes. That's why there is zero continuity in JJ trek and STD.
They ruined the Klingons
They ruined the Romulans
They ruined Section 31
Is there anything they won't ruin?
Star Trek Discovery is NOT in any way anything remotely to do with the Star Trek universe! I'm not saying it's a bad show, I reckon it would be fine as a stand alone show, but it has no place in the actual Star Trek universe.
gosh just because YOU dont want it to be, doesent mean it is that way, canon is what paramount shows on the screen, not what fookin purists want it to be.
if you dont like the show, fine but is is star trek. a real trek fan would know this....BECAUSE EVERY STAR TREK SHOW WAS DIFFERENT FROM ANOTHER
What are you on about? It ties in to the original series.
You do realize that same exact thing was said when The Next Generation started, and then again with Deep Space Nine, and then said ad nauseum with Enterprise.
not only could Starfleet forget about Section 31 in 100 years, people today forget about things in TEN years. I was PART of the DS9 hate bandwagon in its early seasons, so I know damned well how real it was (and swore I would never be that person ever again)
@@k1productions87 Sorry but you're wrong
@@peterpeet4061 You are deluding yourself. I doubt you were even alive when TNG first came out. I was, and I saw it for myself. The only difference is, social media as we know it did not exist, so you had to actually get articles expressing such negativity published in newspapers or magazines. This required far more effort than just commenting on a UA-cam or a Facebook, and did not allow the anonymity you enjoy.
So no, I am not wrong, and actual legitimate facts back me up. You can go ahead and continue to hide behind your no-avatar no-content UA-cam account while the rest of us adults live in the world of reality.
They couldn't just say it's an alternative universe or actually come up with an original and new sci-fi space series. Let's fuck up the original timeline even more and get endless criticism from fans who destroy all the inconsistencies the writers make.
Exactly. It would still have a lot of problems on it's own, but less than it does now with trying to fit into the rest of canon, for sure.
I could accept it much more were it yet another reimagining of the Star Trek mythos.
Halfway through: "Okay okay I'll watch the DS9 episode, stop spoiling it!"
They said the loud part quiet and the quiet part loud.
It's simple: STD simply posits that since all the FANS know about it, all the characters do. They are mixing OOC with IC ... because they're worthless hacks.
We could power an advanced civilization by converting the currently spinning in his grave Gene Roddenberry into a generator.
I know that. I haven't completely lost my mind, you know.
lol
Well, since DIS is not never have been and never will be canon by any standards as it is incompatible with all Star Trek.
Clandestine organizations change over time - the Discovery version of Section 31 may have been less covert than it's DS9 counterpart. Section 31 in the Discovery era seems a bit more like the CIA of today, but later on became a bit more "black hat" with additional autonomy and less visibility.
That doesn't explain the lack of knowing who the hell they were in DS9
@@gups4963 I would say they were once a more or less recognized part of Starfleet, and then at some later point they were officially disbanded but unofficially just passed out of view and continued operating without official sanction. Over time knowledge of them sort of faded away, and they went from being as recognized as the CIA is today to something more akin to a secret society or conspiracy theory type of organization.
They very well could have been a subgroup top starfleet's intelligence, but at some point they went rogue. I used the CIA example in another thread. I pretty much agree with everything in this comment. The events of "Into Darkness" and what is on DSC put it into common knowledge that at most needed a little research. If your example happened it was originally represented as a group that Starfleet intel kept secret and had never done anything showy that got their name out. Keep in mind how little we know of what the CIA does, then add in a specialist group that is only lightly overseen. Then they disappear. That knowledge would be held back barring a city blowing up ;)
A counterpoint is the many, many long-lived species and databases in the Galaxy. Once well-known, it would not suddenly become forgotten among these.
@@xandercorp6175 Another point in agreement with you is that when organizations are reorganized or phased out they generally change their name- like how the Office of Strategic Services (OSS) became the CIA or in Great Britain the Secret Service Bureau became the Secret Intelligence Service (MI6). Even if Section 31 had been relatively well known but then fallen from grace in the 100 years before DS9 lifespans of enough species (including humans by the 23rd and 24th century) are long enough that it would have had to change its name to avoid recognition even if just from rumors and stories from individuals that were alive during the mid 23rd century.
Everything about Discovery in incompatible with Star Trek. What good is having a covert organization if everyone knows about it.
Some continuity issues can't be avoided. But this is just lazy. Lazy like fanfic. Is quality going down that heavy?
The only way to save that would be if that entire "section 31" operation were fabricated by 1 person who will purposefully go down and destroy all credibility of claims of a grander conspiracy in the process.
@@InfernosReaper that wouldn't fix the basic technology issues, site to site transport and many many other things
@@RageUnchained No, it wouldn't. I was just talking about plot holes of overt covert agencies.
@@InfernosReaper the biggest plot hole in this show is in the writers heads
even lazy fanfic has better writing. STD is just a generic sci-fi show with some references to Star Trek and a Star Trek sticker on it ment to cash grab on an amazing franchise and getting people to sub to CBS lol CBS would have to pay me to watch this crap
You do realize that DS9 is over 100 years later, right? Do you remember ANYTHING from 100 years ago? Hell, we can barely keep straight what happened 50 years ago. And while we're on that subject, that same man (Bashir) didn't recognize that "those are Klingons?" even though it was his JOB to know all about anatomy. At the same time he idolized only the most famous Captain in Starfleet history who encountered those smooth-headed Klingons on no less than four separate occasions.
If they can forget what Klingons looked like, then an organization that makes it their mission to cover their tracks and remain secret can surely accomplish that goal.
When you WANT to find discontinuity, you can find it everywhere. TNG is incompatible with TOS continuity for frak sake. Even Voyager is. Hell, TNG even became incompatible with its OWN continuity when they made First Contact.
When you have a 50 year old franchise, there is always discontinuity, mostly because in the early days the writers simply didn't think of these things yet. And if you were to ask these same writers decades later, most of them would tell you to get a life.
If you don't want to like the show, then just don't watch it. There is no rule that says you have to. But stop wasting your time trying to convince others to not like it too. I remember when that happened when TNG and DS9 first started. Hell, i was PART of the DS9 hate bandwagon in its early years, and I swore I would never be that person ever again. I don't care for DSC's first season, but I will still defend it like I would for any Star Trek. It is no more of a problem now than it ever was. And when the show starts improving, just like TNG and DS9, and even ENT did, I almost guarantee that most of the detractors will hypocritically turn around and say "What? I never had anything bad to say, I supported it from the beginning" just like they did with TNG and DS9. At least I have the balls to admit I was wrong.
shut up you repeat the same and the same message. 100 years in nothing in the world of Star Trek
@@peterpeet4061 Actually, even 40 years is a lot in the world of Star Trek, as they claimed we would have interplanetary vessels by the mid 1990's (specifically, the DY-100 class as seen in "Space Seed") when by the time Star Trek was cancelled after its third season, we still hadn't landed on the moon yet.
To some credit some of these differences could be chalked up to the time difference. Remembering STD is placed long before Kirk. There may very well be an explanation within the 150 year gap we are left with. A true separation of section 31 from starfleet may have happened. Making it the rogue organisation seen in DS9.
However it could not be chalked up to the interference of Nero in the Kelvin timeline as despite STD being said to be a prequel to the Kelvin timeline. It would technically be a precursor to the old timeline too as Nero isn’t even a sparkle yet.
The clips comparing the Kelvin Movies could be disregarded however due to timeline interference and depending on how kind you feel the comparisons made for STD can be disregarded through the shear amount of time between the Section 31’s we see.
STD is timed 10 years before TOS.
Even if people in Starfleet forgot about section 31 the other waring powers wouldn't and there lies the problem
-frost- - I’m sure no one in STD outside of starfleet knows of it? And in DS9 it’s not like it’s retroactive. Whether it gets exposed in DS9 has little consequence to STD.
Except Section 31 was established in Enterprise as a completely black organization as well. There is no continuity where Section 31 officers operating openly makes sense.
Soon, STD will be forgotten like it never existed.
While I think Discovery is the worse adaptation of Trek I have ever seen. None of what you showed here today is evidence of incompatibility. In fact to me in makes lots of sense. Discovery is a Section 31 mission/project was since the first season, nobody knows acceot those high up in Star Fleet, the Admiral would be high up in Star Fleet, Pike was briefed on the nature of Discovery's original mission so would be privy to the existence of Section 31, The Empress had absolutely zero idea who they were, Tyler knew because he was a member of Discovery's crew and therefore like Pike privy to knowledge of their existence, Archer was before this so the knowledge of their existence would be a rumor Federation wide as he created the Federation and his logs would still exist, and DS9 is centuries after Discovery. That much time would be easy for an organization like Section 31 could easily slip back in the shadows after stepping forward during a time of war.
Section 31 is just a perfect example of Discovery in general. The show wanted to be different in every possible way it could. They wanted to change everything, from the events and characters to every design, to technology and organisations.... Discovery is an insult to Star Trek and like the sequals in Star Wars, it spits on what came before instead of adding something good to the franchise. Lower Decks is 10 times more what Star Trek should be than discovery is and even the Kelvin timeline is better
😂😂😂😂🥱
section 31 was the tal shiar/odsidian order , of starfleet , everyone knew about them , amnd then they went underground and all records were scrubbed , BOOM inconsistancy explained
Time gap wasn't anywhere near large enough for that to be plausible
@@sciencefictiongeek14 it was 100 years between Discovery and Deep Space Nine that's a pretty big gap
@@waynehayes912 Uhhhh what? 100 years is not a large gap by ANY means. There would literally still be people alive that had first hand experience with section 31. It would definitely not go from walking through the halls with overt badges, to Nobody has ever heard of them or seen them, in a mere 100 years.
It makes sense that Section 31 has more of a presence in the early years of the Federation, and just because Bashir has never heard of them doesn't mean the top brass of Starfleet didn't. The name 'Section 31' is part of the charter so it is more unusual for people of Starfleet to not know about them.
nope: S31 is not Tal Shiar/Obsidian order: t is an illegal entity, which works for the interest of the Federation, but when we look at Enterprise then DS9, we realize that it is older than the Federation and was probably created at the time of the formation of the World Government of the United Earth.
Sloane expresses in DS9 that the Section exists for the Moral Federation to exist, but it is false, inherently, it would comfort the positions of Romulans, Klingons, Cardassians and many people who see the Federation as a distrust. an entity as harmful as the Borg or the Dominion itself, since a validation of Section 31 would be no different from the latter. I also recall that since the time of Archer, they were illegal and in the shade ... in the clear, they were not known, and were already acting, they say it themselves: they exist since well before Starfleet and the government united ..... basically, it's a reliquat of a bygone era, which was grafted on The United Government and then on Starfleet, obviously using propaganda and all that there is in it power to ensure its functioning but also its interests: and they go from peers with those of the Federation, except that they, they think they must work despite the founding values of Starfleet, even if it destroys the latter obviously: they have no responsibilities, and pay no consequences, worse yet, they do not matter to anyone, let alone the Federation and Starfleet.
We already know that Section 31 monitors the enemies of the Federation but also the Federation itself and those who compose it (Vulcans, Andorians, ect): be it the high command, the Presidence, ect .... and we also knows that it does not answer for any responsibilities: which shows that it is particularly dangerous for the political and social stability of the Federation: you believe what will happen what if the Vulcans, the Betazoides or the Bajorans learned that the Federation has access to acts such as murder, political assassination, kidnapping, brainwashing, plundering of resources and technologies, going against all existing treaties with various cultures and peoples? .
When the Federation was created, Ethics and morality, was not taken as a luxury, as a value that can be set aside when needed, nope, it was a resource to be an integral part of the foundations of the Federation, a pillar of its construction.
If the Federation even validated Section 31, it would make it an even more dangerous and corrupt entity than the Terran Empire, except that it would be particularly hypocritical and deceptive: basically "join us or we'll kill you ".... It would totally validate Eddington's speech and make Bashir and Sisko's acts completely useless in DS9. Certainly, we do not win a war with flowers, but Archer and those who founded the Federation, had the idea of creating an entity over the long or very long term, Section 31 acts on terms, without really reflecting on long-term implications (the case of Senator Cretak is particularly obvious, as well as the genocide of the Founders) and especially without taking part in the responsibilities and consequences of her actions: Clearly, Section 31 is irresponsible in its short-term political vision, and it's Starfleet as well as thousands of innocent people who are paying the price for their illegal actions. Sloan balances what he thinks, but that does not mean that he is telling the truth, but it shows in particular how much he is convinced that the Section is doing good, while no .... in terms, in the long run: this will invariably create a schism or even the collapse or corruption of the Federation.
This is why the bias of STD is stupid without name, because the Federation in STD is no longer a utopia (and all that this underlies for its creation), but a Counter Utopia or Dystopia.
Worse still, STD makes Section 31 particularly stupid: just to see leland be completely dubbed like a moron by a Georgian Emperor: we're talking about a paranoid entity, overseeing all aspects of the Federation and the guys do not know anything about the Talosians?
Nah, it's just stupid.
So no, Section 31 is not the NSA, the CIA, the Tal Shiar or other entities: it acts for itself, for its own purposes, under the pretext of "protecting the Federation and its interests" .... except that until proven otherwise, she acts mostly for herself, as she oversees the high command of Starfleet, the Presidence, its founding allies and so on ..... For an entity to protect the values of the Federation, it is not acceptable, and that says a lot about the type of people who support this kind of action: it would be a return to the dark hours before the Federation, and a total rejection of all that has It has been built since Archer, basically: Spit on all the sacrifices, on all the dead, on all those who have worked for the peace and prosperity of the Federation.
Sec31 is often utilized only during times of crisis or instability. The Klingon War and recovery might qualify, no? And they only ever mention it openly (the argument made by all the "Never heard of it" responses in the video) when on the Discovery (which was made classified by penalty of life in prison or death, as I recall, leading to secrecy if not total historical loss with time), and the crews that took part via the USS NCC-1701 Enterprise (who would be held to that same standard).
Basically, it fits because they popped up when they always said they would, and were lost to time because the only discussions that occurred were with those on clandestine missions and were sworn to secrecy on their lives in a society that no longer held a death penalty.
It fits, so suck it up, buttercups.
Writers for Enterprise: that was a crappy show we made.
Writers for STD: hold my beer
There is a 100+ year gap between both, you can easily suppress information in that time frame.
How? Some species like Vulcans do live that long. Spock was still around while the Dominion War was going on. They might remember those people with special badges who didnt change their name while going underground.