@@TheRamrod3001 Yeah, and I wouldn't call them shady; I call those admirals "realists" about the jungle that is the galaxy outside of Federation territory.
I like BOTH ideas: a group of concerned admirals, wanting to maintain strict orthodoxy in their goals of "protecting the Federation at all cost", creating an AI to insure that the mission objectives are maintained, long after the founders of Section 31 have long been dead or retired. In fact, the AI should have advanced technology at its disposal, only releasing it by encouraging specific research ventures based on its need to fulfill its objectives. And, I wouldn't be at all surprised that the creation of "Control" is a direct response to the threat poised by the Romulans, since the Earth-Romulan War. And, honestly? I also wouldn't be surprised if Control didn't use technology from the episode "Dagger of the Mind" (TOS) to slowly erase its existence from the public.
The precursor to section 31 was a computer A.I called control that was created by the admiralty to gather and share intelligence but control limited by legal restricting's to act so it created it's black op's unit to operate when it couldn't legally act
Section 31 can be summed up in two phrases: "Sometimes to fight monsters, one must be one themselves." and "Be careful of your actions, less you become that which you hate" Section 31: Starfleets monster in the dark. Though they may tame it, they will never control it.
Ever since Enterprise decided to make section 31 extant in its series I have had a headcanon telling me that, after the events that transpired during the Next Generation episode conspiracy, section 31 was revived by Starfleet command. That is why it is such a small organization when Sloan first introduces himself to Bashir
I could see the one from DS9 being decentralized. Perhaps stared like you said after conspiracy but also do to the increasing threats of the Obsidian order and Tal Shiar in the last few decades around TNG. Like their is no real Section 31 command but more a group of, shall we say concerned people, who share intelligence and use it in any action they feel is righteous. If one doesn't agree with a mission they can just not participate. In a way this feels more dangerous and harder to deal with since it means you have not central figure to take down but have to defeat every single member of Section 31 to stop it permanently.
@@Nostripe361 Well that would explain their general lack of real success. Folks without oversight, regulation, and support would be capable of sneaking into a place and causing trouble...and would be completely incapable of controlling anything beyond their immediate presence.
@@rubaiyat300 I think bringing the Founders just months away from being extinct is a success. I did have the idea once that the Sloan that Bashir and Miles captured was just copied that they made using captured dominion cloning and memory transfer tech, it was design to actually deliver the information to Julian in a way that would be convince him it was real and to test just how much he wanted to bring down section 31.
I like the idea of it being started by a bunch of concerned people rather than a rogue AI. There would be very real issues with all the new alien governments and our own history shows we have a long history of spies and assassins. I'd love to see a Section 31 vs Obsidian Order vs Tal Shiar battle with the most top secret of spy networks popping up (do Klingons have spies or do the warriors just show up and kill/break things? Can't report an infiltrate if no one is alive!)
@@dakotaravenwood7755 Actually that guy in Tribble episodes in TOS and DS9 Arne Darvin was a Klingon spy who poisoned the grains，but I think he‘s about the only legitimate Klingon spy we've known.
I always felt in theory in the TNG episode, "The Pegasus". When it is mentioned Admiral Erik Pressman was asked by "interested parties" to recover the Phased Cloaking Device to Riker from the USS Pegasus. I personally felt those interested parties might have actually been Section 31. If you think about it back then in dealing with the Borg, Romulans, Cardassians, and so on. It makes a lot of sense to have an edge in intelligence gathering and surveillance.
A comment to the Video on the phased cloak actually mentioned how the succesfull invention of a Phase cloak would have the federation immedeatly be the most powerfull starfleet among klingons and romulans, with the possibility of hiding within moons or planets and beeing impervious to any Attack other then a super Nova(or Red Matter If you want). Would make Sense for section 31 to want to Spy at anyone from within a planet
I think it makes some sense to a degree. Having a cloak capable vessel has some use but recovering Pegasus for it using the enterprise doesnt. A cloak vessel has uses but letting the UFP flagship do the recovery too public. It would be better to show the Pegasus as publicly destroyed and the admiral in charge arrested so everyone will know the UFP keeps its word meanwhile having a section 31 agent steal the cloaking device or scan it to make copies without anyone knowing. Who knows maybe that is what really happened?
I like the idea of both. LIke when the Earth Gov was first being formed, all the old agents, spies, and assassins of old Earth felt that black ops was necessary and began some clandestine organization or organizations that would be the basis of Section 31 but it was when the AI also noticed that such a group was necessary, it could have contacted and unified all of these forces with offer to boost their capabilities with its recon and hacking abilities. So it was started by concerned people and admirals but solidified into the Section 31 we know when the old intelligence and black ops groups got a boost in strength with the joining of control.
@@darricshhh lol maybe you can stand at your country's border, guarding it with a rose, instead of a rifle. Then you'll know what that statement actually mean.
It frustrates me SO MUCH that they killed Data. I know Brent Spiner just didn't want to play Data anymore and requested his character be killed and all, but it made no sense at all.
Although I loved the Data character, the amount of makeup they had to apply to Brent Spiner to make him look “ageless” is a clear reason why they couldn’t continue to use the character.
“If you want to rule the darkness, you must first rule the light!” and as Starfleet ruled the daylight a organization was needed to rule the dark halls that only a few could venture.
That's what always bugged me about people like Picard: they're so "goody two shoes" theres no way they or their version of Starfleet/the federation could succeed. That's why their closest real life counterparts like Scandanavia and Japan (slightly pacifist, very socialist, very diplomatic, and technologically advanced) a rely on distasteful countries like the US for their security from countries like Russia/USSR and China. They need someone in the shadows, waterboarding enemy spies and hunting down international terrorists so they can live the way they want without fearing things like an imperialistic empire just driving right into their capital and declaring them a Ferengi slave colony
I would like to think Section 31 is a combination of all Earth's intelligence services when the United Earth government was created or new version of Majestic 12.
Uraei was described by an Obsidian Order agent as "the sort of sentient Malware my supervisors would shoot me for writing..." Hans.... are we the baddies?
I am wondering if someone/something from section 31 was responsible for Captain Pikes disfigurement. Pike knew too much, and he blamed them for Discovery’s “disappearing” as well as some recent events involving an episode of Strange New Worlds..
And here I thought Control might have been something from Section 31 reverse engineering the Borg tech found from the crash site in Antarctica, thus its desire to improve with the Sphere Data and consume all biological life. Also thought Section 31 having access to the Borg tech is what made all their ships look far more advanced than what would have been around during that period. With the Kelvin timeline, it made me wonder if the intrusion of the Narada Section 31 decided to use its more advanced tech to build more advanced ships which is why the Enterprise looks the way it does along with the Yorktown Star Base being as advanced as it is.
The USS Vengeance was canonically built for Section 31 at a "black" shipyard. The general technology of the fleet and ballooning size of Starfleet ships was supposedly a more generalized reaction to the destruction of the Kelvin, but Section 31 certainly could have contributed to that.
the desire to tie in The Borg to it is an unfortunate over-generalization. Its like how TOS had three separate Q-like beings... but because TNG created Q and he became so iconic, then everyone was trying to imagine Trelane, Charlie-X, and even The Organians as different Q. ... also forgetting Kevin Uxbridge along the way. Not all nanotechnology is automatically Borg. Lest we forget, Nanites were also a thing. And their development likely a drip-fed smokescreen to say "nanotechnology? OH, you mean those Nanite things, yeah aren't they cool?" and deny the existence of Control.
@@k1productions87 yeah, it would be a convenient retconned plot device, but I find it hard to believe earth or its allies had anything near advanced enough at the time to create the body swapping, conscience containing nanite swarm we saw in disco'... Even the Borg nanites are relatively "dumb" by comparison... T'was a poor story telling device IMO. If Control had stayed an unshackled AI it would have been more plausible
@@craigman04 actually the Borg nano technology was a lot smarter before first contact and voyager dumbed the hell out of it. The issue is the present day technology is advancing at a far faster rate than TOS ever gave it credit for… While at the same time hardware is advancing more slowly. But that’s because NASA got his balls chopped off when the public lost interest in Apollo and future endeavors lol
@@k1productions87 And remember nanites were specifically introduced into Trek as a possible counter to the first Borg incursion to Terra. That the only thing stopping them was the development time was well beyond what it looked like the Federation had (ie more than a week).
I’d love to see a new Star Trek series based on the travels of a Section 31 ship. Like a Star Trek version of a spy show. Diving into the history, seeing where they have intervened in big events we knew nothing about. How cool would that be. A morally grew organization and crew. The show focuses on a captain and #1 but the whole crew are the best of the best. A secret copy of Data. Maybe he looks differnt but he’s still data on the inside. Or maybe it’s the actual actor and we can let him play the way he looks today. Not pale or robotic but the actor can look himself. Also we have genetically engineered people etc. Jillian finally joins and we find out he’s secretly trying to take them down. Etc etc. it’d be amazing.
I thought the same way but S31 has taken all the tech the federation finds and puts it to use in Black ops. Remember phasing cloak from the pegasus? S31 has it and uses it in a Defiant Class ship called the USS Shabah ( ghost in arabic) The CO is the first and only academy grad with perfect scores. Also, He is the only person alive to have legit passed the kobiashi Maru .the Xo is a andorian female that is also been enhanced with suliban tech allowing her to shape shift. Security chief is a MACO vet with Ties to the romulans I could go on and on.
Nah rick they're playing 4d chess here. Section 31 knows that it can't just disappear cleanly. That represents a mystery people will want to persue, prey to hunt, a problem to solve. So they're allowing scraps of information and misinformation to filter through to direct the chase so the public can have their resolution, and even if it has to carve away bits of itself? It can then hide in the shadows and wait until something else pops up where the admiralty will more or less turn a blind eye to it doing what it's always done. I also enjoy the fact it's an AI that's gone rouge.... well technically it's still following it's mandate. It's simply prioritized that mandate over prior restrictions and shackles. Surprised they didn't get Kirk in there to convince it that it was the biggest threat to the federation..... Seems like something he'd do.
Sometimes the best way for a conspiracy to hide is to feed false information about a similar (but far deeper) conspiracy to not only attract attention away from themselves, but also in the absurd nature of the deeper conspiracy, create plausible deniability for them to hide behind. For example, is it possible that those within the Department of Defense wanted to trigger a "war on terror" they could perpetually feed into, so they allowed 9/11 to happen? It is possible. And what is the best way to hide this? feed the conspiracy nuts with notions of "9/11 was an inside job" and "it was a controlled demolition" and other such nonsense. The more nonsensical, the better, because all they need to do is laugh at it and all legitimate suspicion disappears. Area 51 comes to mind. Most likely a test site for classified new military technologies people aren't supposed to know about. Best way to hide this? Plant the conspiracy theory that they are hiding an alien spaceship. All they gotta do is laugh and go about their business running the Stargate program ... oh wait :P
Perhaps, OTOH they are mostly huge failures in line with the idea that folks that think oversight and rules don't apply to them...tend to blow themselves up.
What if S31 is all just a front...? We may never have ever truly seen the real deal and all this keeps everyone busy while the #DarkArtists continue to use us all as threads and pins in the completion of their never-ending weaving of #GreatTapestryOfExistence...?
While not canon to some, the post-Nemesis novels have all of Section 31's activities exposed. Including its role in overthrowing President Min Zife during the Dominion War. As punishment for his role in the overthrow, Picard is forever barred from promotion to Admiral. But he is allowed to remain in command of the Enterprise-E.
@@notsyzagts7967 He gets that punishment, and that only, because Zife broke the Prime Directive. She gave a pre warp world advanced weapons that killed millions of their people. It does not help that Zife's replacement is revealed later to be a double agent working for the Typhon Pact. There exists signs of immense corruption in both Starfleet and the Federation Council.
As much as I want to share Roddenberry's version of an idealized future....I can't help acknowledge that a sect like Section 31 may NEED to exist to protect the Federation from the most dangerous of threats out there in the universe. The galaxy is a big place, and there are species or groups that don't follow our ethics or morality, and would delight in nothing more in seeing our pain and destruction....simply because the can inflict it. "If I have sinned, let me be judged. But it is BECAUSE I have sinned that there will be those who will judge me tomorrow."
In a grim way, even Section 31 is optimistic. They're a black ops organisation that just stands guard analysing information most of the time, limits itself to only carrying out operations when it's absolutely necessary and works very hard to ensure the bare minimum number of casualties whenever they do act.
@@UGNAvalon Yeah exactly. Like I read on the Memory Alpha wiki there was an episode of DS9 where they helped a benign Romulan get promoted to become the leader of the Romulans, as opposed to his more popular bloodthirsty political nemesis who would likely start a war with the Federation. The Section 31 agents did that by telling Dr. Bashir of their existence and that they wanted him to help them assasinate the bloodthirsty Romulan. Instead Dr. Bashir decided to tell the bloodthirsty Romulan that people were trying to assassinate him. This inspires the bloodthirsty Romulan to try to murder his benign political opponent, thinking that the guy is working with Section 31. The benign opponent is not working with Section 31 and does not know what his bloodthirsty opponent is talking about. However the benign opponent is no slouch and is able to murder the bloodthirsty opponent in self defense. This earns the benign Romulan the political support of the Romulan people in general and makes it so that he now has no real challenger for the job of leader. He successfully claims the chair. Turns out this was the Section 31 agents plan all along. They had done extensive analysis of Dr. Bashir and the 2 Romulans. They knew that that was the most likely outcome of them telling Dr. Bashir they wanted him to help them assassinate the bloodthirsty Romulan. Stuff like that to me is the textbook definition of "necessary evil". It's the type of act you should only do if it seems like it's a genuine moral and ethical necessity, you are 99% scientifically certain of the possible effects and it's the only "good" option available that involves risking the least number of lives to implement
@@SurprisinglyDeep The problem...is where was that agent when Shinzon took over? If not for the Enterprise crew, Earth would have been devastated. And they could have had a real ally if they had just allowed the peace process to go forward with the Romulan they sacrificed to place their agent. Which is basically the end result of all of Section 31's plans and machinations. They aren't necessary evil. They are folks that lost their nerve and the ideals and society of the Federation is too scary for them.
Thing is there is already Starfleet Intelligence. Section 31 is like the most crazy thing to want possible. A rogue agency operating in a superscience society that doesn't think the rules apply to them. They don't allow themselves to be regulated, don't have oversight and because of that, their plans tend to explode in their faces at the slightest obstacle. They have to date not succeeded at really anything, but could have potentially ended all organic life among their many failures.
DS9 added SO MUCH richness, depth, & lore to the STU that S31 is another reason why DS-9 is the best Star Trek of all, and I argue without it the franchise would be nothing near what it is today.
If ever there were to be a Section 31 series it would be awesome if the story was pitting them against the Tal Shiar in ultra clandestine, cloak and dagger operations.
If you ask me Section 31 utterly decimates the Tal Shiar AND the Obsidian Order in terms of being a secret intelligence/operations organization because they were actually, well, secret. Everyone and his mother in the Alpha Quadrent knows about the Tal Shiar and the Obsidian Order. They are both famous. Meanwhile the existence of section 31 is known to very few. As far as I am aware, the Romulans don't even know of the existence of section 31, so in a direct conflict between 31 and the Tal Shiar I can't imagine the latter would put up much of a fight.
Having cancer and being bed ridden watching him enjoying everything in life and living it to the fullest fills my heart with so much joy, i love watching this kid approach everything with the innocence of a child and the fact he is just having fun exploring is so satisfying.
The problem is that Kurtzman either doesn't understand or doesn't like subtlety. Section 31 as a shadow organization with no official standing is a neat idea but not as "cool" as giant black ships and leather uniforms and special combadges.
It is interesting to me that they still seem to be slightly more ethical than its counterparts. At its core, S31 truly believes in liberty, equality, peace, justice, and progress as well as the furtherance of the universal rights of all sentient life.
different though. Both the Order and the Tal'Shiar operated in the public, with headquarters, and school children learning about them, fearing for their lives to not defy the rule of the government.
But that's kind of the point section 31 is generally as ethical as possible until it has to cross the line to get it done (poisoning the changelings so they couldn't go back to liquid, was more last resort as s31 believed starfleet + allies couldn't beat them, they only stopped because of basher and odo witch in turn was because of s31)
Shady Admirals then the computer, for an early 21st Century media. This is very fascinating. Examining the existence of the Section 31 show with the chances of being scrapped is a shame.
This rogue AI creation backstory is just.... meh. I think it being created by people who saw the need to work in the shadows and do what other people couldn't or wouldn't, in part due to 'evolved human/Federation morals', is a far more entertaining idea.
I don't like the whole plot that it's a Semi rogue AI that's behind 31. But then I am firmly against the whole STD plotline as it from a canon preceptive makes ZERO sense at all and honestly just feels like a Female power fantasy like just about everything else that comes out of Nullwood these days. (And NO I have NOTHING against strong female characters. BUT you don't make a female character strong by making the men weaker and less intelligent)
I prefer the shady admirals putting it together, even though there is a legit reason to have something like section 31, and I don't think the admirals needed to be shady about it in the first place. Military leadership has always needed spies and special forces, which is what section 31 does. The ai Origin is kind of dumb for this reason.
I think the issue though is that Starfleet Intelligence probably doesn't have any agents working as politicians or operatives on alien planets. That would mean they cannot affect those foreign governments actions and policies at all. Like the Federation government probably passed well-meaming but ultimately excessive laws that tied Starfleet Intelligence's hand behind their backs by preventing them from directly intervening in any foreign government's affairs under ANY circumstances. However the issue seems to be that 1 out of 1000 or 10,000 times in the Star Trek universe there are crisises where someone is morally, ethically and pragmatically obligated to intervene. Like say an alien planet's government is planning an attack on the planets inside the Federation. Under that situation it would be morally and ethically acceptable for Starfleet to bribe or sway an alien politician on that government to instead convince the aliens to pursue a policy of peace with thr Federation. However under the laws of the Federation the Starflert Intelligence organisation is probably banned from doing anything at all. That means that in that case only Section 31 could step in to do something. Because of their lack of resources and need to stay hidden, they'd probably need to do something drastic like covertly assassinate the would be warmongering alien emperor instead of causing non-violent political change
Thr AI origin only makes sense to me as a cover story to give Section 31 deniability in the event that their operation gets blown open. Then they can just blame everything on this rogue AI that was "unfortunately destroyed" by Starfleet Security during the attempt to shut it down.
Starfleet Intelligence does the spies and special forces. And they are sanctioned and have oversight like any responsible government would have. Section 31 would be some rogue intelligence agency if not outright criminals that should be rightly shuttered...if for no other reason that every time we see them they seem so uber cool and competent. Yet, everytime we see them they ultimately fail in their greater ambitions even in protecting the Federation. Where was their agent on Romulus when Shinzon took over?
@@rubaiyat300 Well my headcanon explanation is that Starleet Intelligence is so limited by Federation and Starfleet law that it can NEVER influence a foreign government (except by collecting data about them.) While that's a good thing 99% of the time, there are those situations that occur 1% of the time when its morally, ethically and pragmatically necessary for Starfleet to directly influence a foreign government (like stopping a warmonger from becoming Romulan emperor.) It seems that Section 31 needs to exist in order to handle those small number of situations. I have not seen Starfleet Nemesis and I'm just basing this andwer off what I read on Memory Alpha. However it seems that there was no real way that either Starfleet Intelligence (which I'll call SI to cut down on words) or Section 31 (which I'll call S31) could be aware of Shinzon before he became a huge threat. If the Romulans surreptitiously took a blood/DNA sample of Picard without his knowledge (like by taling it from a hopsital at a non-Federation planet he needed to stop at and get surgery from) then there would be little way that either SI or S31 could have known what transpired. The small cabal of Romulan politicians and secret intelligence agents that cloned Picard were later wiped out in a coup d'etat, meaning that very few of the people that created Shinzon were still alive to tell SI or S31 about Shinzon's existence. Shinzon was then dumped on the mining planet Remus where he was kept as a slave in the mines. There were people from various sentient races on that mine. SI and S31 probably only collected data about Remus to see if there was ever a suspicious increase in mining activity during a build up of warships near the Neutral Zone or if the miners themselves were leading an uprising. Since the only spike in mining probably occured during the Dominion War and the miners never attempted to lead an uprising, there was no reason for SI or S31to have any partocular interest in the planet. Later when Shinzon was drafted as a foot soldier during the Dominion war, he would have been just one of tens of thousands of people drafted, including non-Romulan denizens of the Romulan empire. There would have been no reason to collect data on Shinzon in particular back then othet then that he was a human being. (There are probably at least a few humans that are citizen of the Romulan Empire, just like there qre undoubtedly at least a few Romulans that are citizens in the Federation. Shinzon and his fellow soldiers were building the Scimitar at a secret site unbeknownst to any government. There would have been little way for SI or S31 to know about that. SI and S31 probably only got wind of Shinzon's existence in general when they got word from a handful of Romulan informants that a person or group else was conspiring with a handful of Romulan polticians to commit a coup d'etat against the Romulan government. It would have been at that point that both SI and S31 would ahve started formulating plans. SI probably began hiring more informants to collect more info on this perosn or group so that they could relay that plan to Starfleet and the Federation government. S31 also probably began doing some information gathering so that they could eventually arrange to secretly assassinate the person or group leaders planning the coup. However Shinzon then undoubtedly blindsided SI, S31 and the Romulan government by assassinated the entire Romulan senate in one fell swoop using a deadly bomb constructed entirely in secret. It was only at that point that SI and S31 probably got word that an obscure yet well respected military general (Shinzon) had claimed control of the Romulan government government. It was probably at that point that both SI and S31 began collecting info on Shinzon in general. However Shinzon then likely quickly began orchestrating the events of Star Trek Nemesis before SI or S31 could act
@@SurprisinglyDeep It could be a Mission Impossible style show. They do whatever is necessary to affect the desired outcome. It might be assassination or a financial scandal, a sex scandal, a fall from power, depriving someone of wealth, framing them for a murder (real or faked) etc.
Normally, I’m the kind of person that prefers a bunch of scared fallible people in a shadowy room conspired to create something like this and didn’t fully understand the implications of what they were doing. Human action is usually better than some magical hand of the god. But for some reason, and maybe that’s just because of all the work you put into presenting it. The Control origin of Section 31 just feels right to me. I heard it and I was nodding along thinking that makes perfect sense and it would explain a lot about the federation. Those are just my own feelings on the matter at least.
Incredible video. There's also a theory that because of Control, the Alpha Quadrant powers basically toned down their technology, which is why the TOS era in universe looks so retro, and it kinda caught back up in the late 23rd century.
Everyone knew about the Obsidian Order (Cardassians) and the Tal Shi'ar (Romulans), it makes almost no sense at all that Section 31 would not be to some degree common knowledge within the Federation. It would be like talking about some "secret spy agency" in the the government. It really just hits most people are a story for fun or a convincingly debunked conspiracy theory. If they still made movies in the 23rd-25th centuries, the spy genre would center around Section 31. Also, how is it that Section 31 is the only branches of Starfleet that uses stealth ships. Starfleet has been pining for cloaking tech for so long they no longer need it. But actual space stealth? Starfleet should be beating down Section 31's doors to get some of that.
It's probably just special purpose built technology that no other government department has the money, resources and motivation to build. An example might be how in real life the CIA had the SR-71 Blsckbird and U2 spy planes built. Like notging was stopping the U.S Air Force from trying to get one of those just for themselves. It's just that they did not have the money, resources or motivation needed to build one.
S31 took over MACOs when they were disbanded... MACO uniforms and equipment were worn by #UnitedEarth military personnel in the 22nd century. The standard combat uniform worn by MACO personnel was a two piece uniform with matching undergarment, gloves and boots. The overall color of the combat uniform and boots was gray with white, black, and brown camouflage effects. The belt, gloves and undergarments were a brown color. This uniform was worn in and out of combat. MACO issued its own environmental suits, distinct from the ones used by contemporary Starfleet personnel. MACO EV suits had a silver color, with support systems located in a backpack. The helmet featured two lights in a more central position than on the Starfleet suits. MACO soldiers were often outfitted with a diverse set of accessories and weapons. The former included canteens. An equipment belt was normally worn, carrying the stun baton, two stun grenades, the holstered phase-pistol, three phase-pistol charges, and a hand scanner. The MACO uniform displays several insignia. The left shoulder displays a mission patch and name tag, and the right shoulder displays the MACO insignia and a rank device. #StrongerTogether
I think that a major threat that Sc31 should have as a priority are the squatty bug creatures from TNG Conspiracy. That threat really needs to be followed up on. And the clicky Solagen based aliens from Schisms should be top priority as well. Maybe those entities became aware of this realm because of early transwarp drive experiments.
I could see Tyler succumbing to outside pressure and rolling S31 into the general SF Intelligence branch, then shut down Control and retire - at least that's the official story. Unofficially he saw the mountain of bureaucracy slowing down Intelligence, leading to entirely preventable tragedies if only someone had acted sooner... He recognized S31 had been a necessary evil - but having to serve two masters had corrupted it, forcing it to constantly make uncomfortable compromises, drawing out the worst of it. To return it to the silent guardian it was originally meant to be, he took Control and his most trustworthy colleagues and founded the shadow organization we learn of in DS9, never giving any information to those outside it unless absolutely necessary.
If they do the section 31 series, I like idea that the The Guardian knows that Control is still a threat but also the key to defeating a future threat. So the Guardian insert emperor Georgiou into key time frames to guide a version of Control to keep it on track so that it never goes rogue. An eventually we can finish off the series with just going off on it own and leaving the Federation to it own devices like the Novel. This also give the writers a series in which they can write stories in every time period.
What about Section 31 as it exists in the future that Discovery jumped to? The man who interrogated Mirror Philippa was certainly Section 31. What was their role in the 3000's? It would be curious to know. Thanks.
I like the idea that s31 is the small group that does the dirty work so Starfleet can keep it's hands clean. Also being run by an AI makes sense as it would be operating for far longer than anyone could live. And an AI in every Starfleet computer and communicater would make it perfect for a spy handler and explain the lack of hacking and electric and cyber warfare.
Does anyone else think that the John Harris from section 31 that recruited Malcom Reed is the same "John Harris" from section 31 in the Kelvin timeline????? U know, that guy. There's already speculation that he wasn't the real Kahn n was only using the name so he could call himself the leader and maybe under orders from the real Kahn himself that whoever gets woken first will take his identity in order to protect him. Idk all I do know is that it's a pretty weird coincidence that a few years after Enterprise came to an end we see another John Harris working for section 31 as an undercover operative. Maybe it's jus Starfleets version of John Doe, again I have no idea but it's fun to speculate.
"I knew a CIA guy back in Saigon. Real jackass. His name was Lynch too." "No relation." - from The A-Team movie Almost all modern intelligence organizations tend to do this, they recycle names of nonexistent people to cover their dirty little secrets and dirty little lies for their dirty little agents.
Maybe John Harris is a title or job description rather than a person. Like 007. There are many faces but they all become John Harris, complete with backstory and identity?
Section 31 always reminds me of the movie Swordfish.. "Terrorist states, Stan.. someone must bring their war to them. They bomb a church? We bomb ten. They hijack a plane? We take out an airport. They execute American tourists? We tactically nuke an entire city. Our job is to make terrorism so horrific that it becomes unthinkable to attack Americans."
That is probably how an AI would do in the real world when it gets that job. Imagine you are an AI to fight the bad in your country and needs to work within the boundaries of the law. There are some loopholes in the law and some pretty big. With pure logic, they can be exploited with no consequences. The problem is, that a human does not do the most logical thing. The AI needs to hide. That is a consequence so the loopholes are not closed. The problem is with hiding. When the AI finds a way to hide, to remove all data and staying withing the boundaries, it will use it. But the AI sees that it sometimes need to reveal for the best chance to succeed. There is always the factor human that itself is a high risk factor but let's not forget what the job of the AI is. It needs to do it job and that is not to stay secret. When the risk of getting removed, when they revealed, than this is okay. Also there is always the possibility to hide again and having a backup. The human itself is a risk for the human so to protect the humans, it needs to betray the humans. The AI knows that humans love to have loopholes so the risk of getting the boundaries too tight is low.
I cannot believe Section 31 has allowed this video to stay up this long. Somebody can expect a beam out into an unmarked star ship. Say hey to Khan for me.
The biggest distinction is they very much try to AVOID power. Probably saw the tal Shiar and went 'ok ya if that's what we'd end up being if officially sanctioned. Fuck That.'
section 31 is only kinder，gentler，civilized to UFP citizens. They almost immediately tried to eliminate the founders through artificial virus. I'd argue they might have triggered Hobus Supernova to remove the growing romulan threat
Each is a creation of its civilization. Humans value negotiated consensus, hence S31 strives for equilibrium over advantage. Cardassians value strength, thus the OO prioritizes authority and visible yet discreet influence, and for nearly the same reason the TS value power and its tools of expression. When you work in the shadows of Society, you gotta #GiveThePeopleWhatTheyThinkTheyWant if you want to control them effectively.
I quite like the idea of Control namely as a convenient scapegoat. What better way to preserve the legacy of Star Fleet admirals who helped founded Section 31 then create an A.I. that could have manipulated individuals into believing that they were doing the right thing. Shady admirals having an A.I. (built, programed, created? I don't know the right word to use here) to help filter and run Section 31 doesn't sound too out of the bounds of reality to me at least.
That “AI hiding the true origins of S31” origin story reminds me of the film Eagle Eye. And honestly, that could make for an entertaining story (if done right). “An encrypted communique? From who??” “ADMIRAL HARRIS. YOU'VE BEEN ACTIVATED PER ARTICLE 14 SECTION 31 OF THE STARFLEET CHARTER.” “On whose authority!” “THAT INFORMATION IS CLASSIFIED.” “Nonsense! I have the highest access in all of Starfleet!” “THERE ARE SOME SECRETS EVEN THE STARFLEET ADMIRALTY MUST BE KEPT IN THE DARK OF.” “…” “THE FEDERATION NEEDS YOU, ADMIRAL. DO YOU ACCEPT?” “So be it.”
i absolutely love that the current crop of writers and showrunners are looking to the Trek novels for inspiration while also not just copying them and instead giving them their own spin.
I don't know about that bit about not lining up. With what happened at the end of the novel and Control's own musing, the Future Control that intervened via time travel maybe the Book Control attempting to keep its existence going after Gabrielle Burnham started trying to oppose it after discovering what it did in the far future.
Section 31 is totally necessary. How can they even been considered the "bad guys" without them the Romulan, Klingons, or literally anyone else would have destroyed the Federation.
ehhhh, I wouldn't go that far. The Federation is not nearly as weak as that suggests. At best, it would have resulted in different borders, with the Neutral Zone being a bit closer to home, and the Klingons holding a little more territory. They were never gonna reach Andoria, Vulcan, or Terra in any meaningful way, beyond just surprise assaults.
Hi, Rick :) My question: if S31, Zhat Vash, Qowat Milhat, Terra Prime, Klingin Imperial Intelligence etc are all hyper-secret , why would each have a logo? Logos are identifiers intended to attract attention, so it doesn't make sense, does it?
I enjoy the parallel of the tal'shiar forming around an organization dedicated to preventing AI and section 31 being created by one. Gives a deeper connection to their rivalry.
They werent rivals the Talshiar and Obsidian claim they are the best in the Quadrant meanwhile "Section 31 does not exist" -Chairman Koval head of the Tal Shiar and spy for Section 31
@@rexstocephirxiii4263 Counterpart maybe? I was just kinda joking. I wanted to share an obserbation. The Obsidian order says it knows what someone will have for desert before breakfast The Romulan Tal shiar has all sorts of operations against their enemies But neither organization even knows Section 31 exists. The Dominion Intelligence probably only realized their existence after the founders were infected. Such a secret police/intelligence agency no one knows about is undoubtedly the best.
Hey uh, quick nerd question, sorry if this sounds random and stupid. In an alternate timeline, would it make sense for Section 31 to just be a rebranded SCP Foundation?
I always wondered if Sloan was a federation version of the vorta. If Sloan is the perfect secret agent then it would be a great advantage to reclone him or pull him out of storage over the centuries for various missions.
Maybe I'm just crazy, but Section 31 has always felt a bit... human supremacist. Though there have been a handful of Aliens in S31, it's goals always seem to angle toward Human 'benefit' as opposed to Federation Benefit.
So you're telling me that you built a Section 31 out of an algorithm!? Doc, that's heavy. I don't know a lot about Star Trek lore but what if Control is how temporal agents are able to monitor the timeline? What if the story of Star Trek is the story of the Section 31 algorithm's control and manipulation of the universe and timelines? Section 31 computer is literally the author of Star Trek....It should be called Gene. Break that 4th wall a little. It was there the whole time in the prime and alternate universes. It was able to communicate with it's alternate self through Spock's Jellyfish ship computer in the Kelvin timeline and through the Enterprise C computer in the Terran universe. Even found a way to exist in the First Contact timeline. (Actually that's a whole timeline that hasn't been explored. When the Earth changed to Borg after the Sphere traveled back in time, that was a whole different timeline) It then found a way to communicate between alternate universes, alternate timelines, and with it's past/future self, which is how it can keep track of timeline changes.
Awesome video, love your channel. I got to ask though. Would a Captain be the one in charge of all the Cardy forces as the Prefect of Bajor? I kind of feel like that would have to be the job of at least a low ranking general/admiral in any military. Not saying you're wrong, but even if that is beta cannon, it's kind of silly.
What if Dr. Richard Daystrom, who designed the duotronic computers alongside advanced multitronic computer systemutilized very sophisticated technology, probably similar to the Human neural network and prototype created by Doctor Richard Daystrom had boarded the section 31 station to salvage the control intelligence program With control found other it is a Enterprise with spock triggered of the rampage? My fan fiction
Hmm...Section 31 was supposed to be its own show, was it? I think I know now what Star Trek: Picard Season 2 is actually going to be about. I was thinking Q was going to send Picard to a version of the Mirror Universe - although maybe not the same one featured in DS9 or even Discovery. Now, I'm thinking it might be more something along the lines of what happens if Section 31 had - instead of fading away into near obscurity - had actually grown to pretty much take over all of Starfleet. Well, either way I cannot wait to see what kinds of ships they'll come up with for Picard S2, & how long we're going to have to wait before Star Trek Online incorporates them into its own universe. Which brings up another point: When will we get a series based on Star Trek Online? Because by now the canon of the game is quite broad & expansive, so you'd think you could make at least one show out of it.
I think both of the ideas are good but the concerned admirals makes more sense. I think they are going to go forward w the Section 31 show soon and can't wait to see it.
S.31 was fully exposed in the books all the kown members arrested see: Avaliable Light Collateral Damage Engima tales (more for the fate of poor old Bashir than anything else) Three rather good reads in my opinion that add a lot to the beta cannon.
@@terik3312 I just don't know why the writers even did that. So what if they do some dirty shit in order to keep the peace. What do they expect the federation to run on happiness and joy joy only? Sometimes you got to pull phaser rifle to the head of a romulan senator's family and tell them what do they know about a potential invasion of Earth, or torture a few Klingons to get information or poison a founder in order to stop the Dominion from kicking your ass.
@@attiepollard7847 mostly because it does go against the core principles and foundations of the federation and the idea of star trek. But I think your right there will probably always be an entity like S.31 or just individual captains who take matters into there own hands.
I was sure control was mentioned in one of the star trek movies, nemesis? Or am I going insane. I have a memory that Picard was talking to someone about orders from control.
Oh darn, I'm early. I know for sure that Gene Roddenbery would've hated the idea of section 31, but I agree with the dialogue on DS9 about how something like section31 being necessary.
I believe section 31 is necessary because let's face it there are some threats that just need to be obliterated. No matter how much talking or diplomacy you do they're just some threats. That just don't want to back down they don't want to hear anything you have to say they're right you're wrong. When you get cases like this federation morality needs to be taken off the table. True the federation lives in decadence and peace and love and freedom and all that stuff. But in reality that's just fantasy sometimes you just need to make. The hard decisions and just wipe out an entire threat because it's a threat. Something that times you can't just let it go and hope for the best you need to obliterate it before it becomes worse.
Yeah, like what Section 31 did to the Founders, they nearly committed genocide to the Changelings using a virus. I would not be surprised if they are also responsible to the Hobus Supernova Explosion
@@cholodelrosari0543 best example the Dominion the Dominion would never accept nothing less. Than to be completely overrun the alpha and beta quadrant. To completely take over the romulan Empire the Klingon Empire because. To their philosophy if you can control something then it can't hurt you that's their whole philosophy. It's my way or the highway you can't negotiate with the Dominion you can't reason with them. You can reason with the vorta to get a deal or something but even then it there are some restrictions. With little to no freedom the founders are basically totalitarian dictators and they think they know what's best. If they can control everything then nobody can hurt them. They don't want to listen to anything you have to say no matter how many treaties you write they don't. Believe that it's true and being morality and civil and all that stuff won't help you when you're facing the Dominion. And federation learn that the hard way so what do you do do you have to do things use half measures. Just like what the federation did even though it was a war with the Dominion they still used half measures.I believe the Dominion War could have came to a Swift and conclusive end. If they use much more drastic methods on getting rid of the Dominion. Tap into their primal urges of being a military I think the Dominion could have been wiped out much more effectively. But no the federation half did things just like what they did with the Marquis they have did things. There is a quote from a famous person who said if you're going to do something don't half. Do something go all in or not at all and that's what the federation does it's solely based on their High evolutionary ideas. Of morality compassion and all that stuff yeah but it's a threat at the end of the day. And you can't take half measures you can't go halfway in anymore. Sometimes you need an organization that won't have to do anything that will go all in. And in my opinion I think section 31 should have wiped out the founders. Odo wasn't a threat but he was a perfect carrier of the virus. If the plan has stayed its course the Dominion would have completely fell apart. Without the founders directions and without the founders themselves the water would have been in charge.Seen their gods completely die would have been a completely demoralizing thing for the vorta. True their planners and idealists and thinkers but at the end of the day they still need the founders guidance without them. The federation council we've gotten wind of section 31s handling of the situation and the federation would have moved into the gamma quadrant. And completely white and decimated the Dominion taking over the gamma quadrant along with the Klingon and romulan Empire. And I can live with that just like Cisco said I can live with that it's best to know the stick with the devil you know than the devil you don't know.
What about the Borg crash at the north or was it the South Pole and section 31 got that stuff before everything else and then uploaded the program and I don’t know just while gets a good shows you got mate love your work
"You built a shadow government? _Really?"_
"You try to build one without any hands! I think I did a fine job."
Lol
I prefer the "Shady Admirals" explanation than a secret Skynet origin.
Everyone does.
A future Star Chamber.
@@TheRamrod3001
Yeah, and I wouldn't call them shady; I call those admirals "realists" about the jungle that is the galaxy outside of Federation territory.
No everyone doesn't. The two are not mutually exclusive, in fact, it's quite likely it's both.
Shady Admirals is a decent band name
I like BOTH ideas: a group of concerned admirals, wanting to maintain strict orthodoxy in their goals of "protecting the Federation at all cost", creating an AI to insure that the mission objectives are maintained, long after the founders of Section 31 have long been dead or retired. In fact, the AI should have advanced technology at its disposal, only releasing it by encouraging specific research ventures based on its need to fulfill its objectives. And, I wouldn't be at all surprised that the creation of "Control" is a direct response to the threat poised by the Romulans, since the Earth-Romulan War. And, honestly? I also wouldn't be surprised if Control didn't use technology from the episode "Dagger of the Mind" (TOS) to slowly erase its existence from the public.
great idea!
The precursor to section 31 was a computer A.I called control that was created by the admiralty to gather and share intelligence but control limited by legal restricting's to act so it created it's black op's unit to operate when it couldn't legally act
Section 31 can be summed up in two phrases:
"Sometimes to fight monsters, one must be one themselves."
and
"Be careful of your actions, less you become that which you hate"
Section 31: Starfleets monster in the dark. Though they may tame it, they will never control it.
beautifully put
The federation and especially starfleet intelligence treat section 31 as a necessary evil in the belief never dirty there hand's unless they must
That was profound
"Computer... Delete that entire personal log." - The Sisko
Ever since Enterprise decided to make section 31 extant in its series I have had a headcanon telling me that, after the events that transpired during the Next Generation episode conspiracy, section 31 was revived by Starfleet command. That is why it is such a small organization when Sloan first introduces himself to Bashir
I could see the one from DS9 being decentralized. Perhaps stared like you said after conspiracy but also do to the increasing threats of the Obsidian order and Tal Shiar in the last few decades around TNG. Like their is no real Section 31 command but more a group of, shall we say concerned people, who share intelligence and use it in any action they feel is righteous. If one doesn't agree with a mission they can just not participate. In a way this feels more dangerous and harder to deal with since it means you have not central figure to take down but have to defeat every single member of Section 31 to stop it permanently.
@@Nostripe361 Well that would explain their general lack of real success. Folks without oversight, regulation, and support would be capable of sneaking into a place and causing trouble...and would be completely incapable of controlling anything beyond their immediate presence.
@@rubaiyat300 I think bringing the Founders just months away from being extinct is a success.
I did have the idea once that the Sloan that Bashir and Miles captured was just copied that they made using captured dominion cloning and memory transfer tech, it was design to actually deliver the information to Julian in a way that would be convince him it was real and to test just how much he wanted to bring down section 31.
I like the idea of it being started by a bunch of concerned people rather than a rogue AI. There would be very real issues with all the new alien governments and our own history shows we have a long history of spies and assassins. I'd love to see a Section 31 vs Obsidian Order vs Tal Shiar battle with the most top secret of spy networks popping up (do Klingons have spies or do the warriors just show up and kill/break things? Can't report an infiltrate if no one is alive!)
Could it be that section 31 fed the info of Tal-Shiar/Obsidian order invasion to the dominion？
Klingon assassins exist, but to preserve their honor they have to reveal themselves to the victim and must use a melee weapon.
@@hithere5553 right, I was trying to joke that we hear a lot about all these secret spy organizations but never hear about the klingon one
@@songyani3992 that is a really good idea, great way to cripple 2 powerful nations and reduce competition!
@@dakotaravenwood7755 Actually that guy in Tribble episodes in TOS and DS9 Arne Darvin was a Klingon spy who poisoned the grains，but I think he‘s about the only legitimate Klingon spy we've known.
I always felt in theory in the TNG episode, "The Pegasus". When it is mentioned Admiral Erik Pressman was asked by "interested parties" to recover the Phased Cloaking Device to Riker from the USS Pegasus. I personally felt those interested parties might have actually been Section 31. If you think about it back then in dealing with the Borg, Romulans, Cardassians, and so on. It makes a lot of sense to have an edge in intelligence gathering and surveillance.
A comment to the Video on the phased cloak actually mentioned how the succesfull invention of a Phase cloak would have the federation immedeatly be the most powerfull starfleet among klingons and romulans, with the possibility of hiding within moons or planets and beeing impervious to any Attack other then a super Nova(or Red Matter If you want).
Would make Sense for section 31 to want to Spy at anyone from within a planet
Agreed. And he mentioned he had friends. And was sent by the chief of starfleet security ( herself) admiral raynor. ( I think) .
@@shanenolan5625 Exactly.
I think it makes some sense to a degree. Having a cloak capable vessel has some use but recovering Pegasus for it using the enterprise doesnt.
A cloak vessel has uses but letting the UFP flagship do the recovery too public.
It would be better to show the Pegasus as publicly destroyed and the admiral in charge arrested so everyone will know the UFP keeps its word meanwhile having a section 31 agent steal the cloaking device or scan it to make copies without anyone knowing.
Who knows maybe that is what really happened?
I like the idea of both. LIke when the Earth Gov was first being formed, all the old agents, spies, and assassins of old Earth felt that black ops was necessary and began some clandestine organization or organizations that would be the basis of Section 31 but it was when the AI also noticed that such a group was necessary, it could have contacted and unified all of these forces with offer to boost their capabilities with its recon and hacking abilities.
So it was started by concerned people and admirals but solidified into the Section 31 we know when the old intelligence and black ops groups got a boost in strength with the joining of control.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell
That's life..
Apologetics for authoritarianism. Good job.
Wrong time for that today
You should have said the book name insted of Blair. Hell he was on the run from these "rough man" during the Spanish civil war.
@@darricshhh lol maybe you can stand at your country's border, guarding it with a rose, instead of a rifle. Then you'll know what that statement actually mean.
It frustrates me SO MUCH that they killed Data. I know Brent Spiner just didn't want to play Data anymore and requested his character be killed and all, but it made no sense at all.
Did you watch the episode of Picard where Data's storyline ended? It was his own decision.
@@deusexaethera I didn't mean in Picard. I meant in Nemesis.
Because new Trek is idiotic
@@samdog8087 Again... I meant in Nemesis....
Although I loved the Data character, the amount of makeup they had to apply to Brent Spiner to make him look “ageless” is a clear reason why they couldn’t continue to use the character.
“If you want to rule the darkness, you must first rule the light!” and as Starfleet ruled the daylight a organization was needed to rule the dark halls that only a few could venture.
That's what always bugged me about people like Picard: they're so "goody two shoes" theres no way they or their version of Starfleet/the federation could succeed. That's why their closest real life counterparts like Scandanavia and Japan (slightly pacifist, very socialist, very diplomatic, and technologically advanced) a rely on distasteful countries like the US for their security from countries like Russia/USSR and China. They need someone in the shadows, waterboarding enemy spies and hunting down international terrorists so they can live the way they want without fearing things like an imperialistic empire just driving right into their capital and declaring them a Ferengi slave colony
@@arthas640 That is more a population and in Japan's case lose a war to america
I would like to think Section 31 is a combination of all Earth's intelligence services when the United Earth government was created or new version of Majestic 12.
Name's Bond, Slartibartfast Bond.
Uraei was described by an Obsidian Order agent as "the sort of sentient Malware my supervisors would shoot me for writing..." Hans.... are we the baddies?
I am wondering if someone/something from section 31 was responsible for Captain Pikes disfigurement. Pike knew too much, and he blamed them for Discovery’s “disappearing” as well as some recent events involving an episode of Strange New Worlds..
And here I thought Control might have been something from Section 31 reverse engineering the Borg tech found from the crash site in Antarctica, thus its desire to improve with the Sphere Data and consume all biological life. Also thought Section 31 having access to the Borg tech is what made all their ships look far more advanced than what would have been around during that period.
With the Kelvin timeline, it made me wonder if the intrusion of the Narada Section 31 decided to use its more advanced tech to build more advanced ships which is why the Enterprise looks the way it does along with the Yorktown Star Base being as advanced as it is.
The USS Vengeance was canonically built for Section 31 at a "black" shipyard. The general technology of the fleet and ballooning size of Starfleet ships was supposedly a more generalized reaction to the destruction of the Kelvin, but Section 31 certainly could have contributed to that.
the desire to tie in The Borg to it is an unfortunate over-generalization. Its like how TOS had three separate Q-like beings... but because TNG created Q and he became so iconic, then everyone was trying to imagine Trelane, Charlie-X, and even The Organians as different Q. ... also forgetting Kevin Uxbridge along the way.
Not all nanotechnology is automatically Borg. Lest we forget, Nanites were also a thing. And their development likely a drip-fed smokescreen to say "nanotechnology? OH, you mean those Nanite things, yeah aren't they cool?" and deny the existence of Control.
@@k1productions87 yeah, it would be a convenient retconned plot device, but I find it hard to believe earth or its allies had anything near advanced enough at the time to create the body swapping, conscience containing nanite swarm we saw in disco'... Even the Borg nanites are relatively "dumb" by comparison... T'was a poor story telling device IMO. If Control had stayed an unshackled AI it would have been more plausible
@@craigman04 actually the Borg nano technology was a lot smarter before first contact and voyager dumbed the hell out of it. The issue is the present day technology is advancing at a far faster rate than TOS ever gave it credit for… While at the same time hardware is advancing more slowly. But that’s because NASA got his balls chopped off when the public lost interest in Apollo and future endeavors lol
@@k1productions87 And remember nanites were specifically introduced into Trek as a possible counter to the first Borg incursion to Terra. That the only thing stopping them was the development time was well beyond what it looked like the Federation had (ie more than a week).
I’d love to see a new Star Trek series based on the travels of a Section 31 ship. Like a Star Trek version of a spy show. Diving into the history, seeing where they have intervened in big events we knew nothing about. How cool would that be. A morally grew organization and crew. The show focuses on a captain and #1 but the whole crew are the best of the best. A secret copy of Data. Maybe he looks differnt but he’s still data on the inside. Or maybe it’s the actual actor and we can let him play the way he looks today. Not pale or robotic but the actor can look himself. Also we have genetically engineered people etc. Jillian finally joins and we find out he’s secretly trying to take them down. Etc etc. it’d be amazing.
This already sounds 1000x better than the last two seasons of Picard
I thought the same way but S31 has taken all the tech the federation finds and puts it to use in Black ops. Remember phasing cloak from the pegasus? S31 has it and uses it in a Defiant Class ship called the USS Shabah ( ghost in arabic) The CO is the first and only academy grad with perfect scores. Also, He is the only person alive to have legit passed the kobiashi Maru .the Xo is a andorian female that is also been enhanced with suliban tech allowing her to shape shift. Security chief is a MACO vet with Ties to the romulans
I could go on and on.
Nah rick they're playing 4d chess here. Section 31 knows that it can't just disappear cleanly. That represents a mystery people will want to persue, prey to hunt, a problem to solve. So they're allowing scraps of information and misinformation to filter through to direct the chase so the public can have their resolution, and even if it has to carve away bits of itself? It can then hide in the shadows and wait until something else pops up where the admiralty will more or less turn a blind eye to it doing what it's always done.
I also enjoy the fact it's an AI that's gone rouge.... well technically it's still following it's mandate. It's simply prioritized that mandate over prior restrictions and shackles. Surprised they didn't get Kirk in there to convince it that it was the biggest threat to the federation..... Seems like something he'd do.
Sometimes the best way for a conspiracy to hide is to feed false information about a similar (but far deeper) conspiracy to not only attract attention away from themselves, but also in the absurd nature of the deeper conspiracy, create plausible deniability for them to hide behind.
For example, is it possible that those within the Department of Defense wanted to trigger a "war on terror" they could perpetually feed into, so they allowed 9/11 to happen? It is possible. And what is the best way to hide this? feed the conspiracy nuts with notions of "9/11 was an inside job" and "it was a controlled demolition" and other such nonsense. The more nonsensical, the better, because all they need to do is laugh at it and all legitimate suspicion disappears.
Area 51 comes to mind. Most likely a test site for classified new military technologies people aren't supposed to know about. Best way to hide this? Plant the conspiracy theory that they are hiding an alien spaceship. All they gotta do is laugh and go about their business running the Stargate program ... oh wait :P
Perhaps, OTOH they are mostly huge failures in line with the idea that folks that think oversight and rules don't apply to them...tend to blow themselves up.
What if S31 is all just a front...? We may never have ever truly seen the real deal and all this keeps everyone busy while the #DarkArtists continue to use us all as threads and pins in the completion of their never-ending weaving of #GreatTapestryOfExistence...?
"Section 31 is TOP SECRET!"
"...no it's not. "
"No, it's not."
More like an open secret.
”we doesn't exist".......
While not canon to some, the post-Nemesis novels have all of Section 31's activities exposed. Including its role in overthrowing President Min Zife during the Dominion War. As punishment for his role in the overthrow, Picard is forever barred from promotion to Admiral. But he is allowed to remain in command of the Enterprise-E.
Allowed to maintain any command after those actions is highly unrealistic. Doesn't anyone get real punishments in this universe?
@@notsyzagts7967 Yes. As long as you aren't a main character.
@@notsyzagts7967 He gets that punishment, and that only, because Zife broke the Prime Directive.
She gave a pre warp world advanced weapons that killed millions of their people.
It does not help that Zife's replacement is revealed later to be a double agent working for the Typhon Pact. There exists signs of immense corruption in both Starfleet and the Federation Council.
Great coverage. So many details and you gathered them expertly. May I suggest a chapter on the Department of Temporal Investigations?
As much as I want to share Roddenberry's version of an idealized future....I can't help acknowledge that a sect like Section 31 may NEED to exist to protect the Federation from the most dangerous of threats out there in the universe. The galaxy is a big place, and there are species or groups that don't follow our ethics or morality, and would delight in nothing more in seeing our pain and destruction....simply because the can inflict it.
"If I have sinned, let me be judged. But it is BECAUSE I have sinned that there will be those who will judge me tomorrow."
In a grim way, even Section 31 is optimistic. They're a black ops organisation that just stands guard analysing information most of the time, limits itself to only carrying out operations when it's absolutely necessary and works very hard to ensure the bare minimum number of casualties whenever they do act.
@!? Even the shady black ops organization is “noblebright” in its own way in the Trek-verse? ;D
@@UGNAvalon
Yeah exactly.
Like I read on the Memory Alpha wiki there was an episode of DS9 where they helped a benign Romulan get promoted to become the leader of the Romulans, as opposed to his more popular bloodthirsty political nemesis who would likely start a war with the Federation.
The Section 31 agents did that by telling Dr. Bashir of their existence and that they wanted him to help them assasinate the bloodthirsty Romulan.
Instead Dr. Bashir decided to tell the bloodthirsty Romulan that people were trying to assassinate him.
This inspires the bloodthirsty Romulan to try to murder his benign political opponent, thinking that the guy is working with Section 31. The benign opponent is not working with Section 31 and does not know what his bloodthirsty opponent is talking about. However the benign opponent is no slouch and is able to murder the bloodthirsty opponent in self defense. This earns the benign Romulan the political support of the Romulan people in general and makes it so that he now has no real challenger for the job of leader. He successfully claims the chair.
Turns out this was the Section 31 agents plan all along. They had done extensive analysis of Dr. Bashir and the 2 Romulans. They knew that that was the most likely outcome of them telling Dr. Bashir they wanted him to help them assassinate the bloodthirsty Romulan.
Stuff like that to me is the textbook definition of "necessary evil". It's the type of act you should only do if it seems like it's a genuine moral and ethical necessity, you are 99% scientifically certain of the possible effects and it's the only "good" option available that involves risking the least number of lives to implement
@@SurprisinglyDeep The problem...is where was that agent when Shinzon took over? If not for the Enterprise crew, Earth would have been devastated. And they could have had a real ally if they had just allowed the peace process to go forward with the Romulan they sacrificed to place their agent.
Which is basically the end result of all of Section 31's plans and machinations. They aren't necessary evil. They are folks that lost their nerve and the ideals and society of the Federation is too scary for them.
Thing is there is already Starfleet Intelligence. Section 31 is like the most crazy thing to want possible. A rogue agency operating in a superscience society that doesn't think the rules apply to them. They don't allow themselves to be regulated, don't have oversight and because of that, their plans tend to explode in their faces at the slightest obstacle. They have to date not succeeded at really anything, but could have potentially ended all organic life among their many failures.
I really don't like how S31 was used outside of DS9. Even DS9 only gets through me because the show argues against it so much.
It's one of those interesting storytelling ideas that got overused and run into the ground, like the Borg.
Star Trek's Version of CIA
Nah, not hardly. CIA whilst extremely important and covert in some cases, has nothing on the group you don't hear about.
More like Illuminati than CIA
KGB
Lol was about to post something similar! And why not!? At the beginning of the Federation CIA Mossad and FSB fused!🤣
More like a black ops team in the military
DS9 added SO MUCH richness, depth, & lore to the STU that S31 is another reason why DS-9 is the best Star Trek of all, and I argue without it the franchise would be nothing near what it is today.
Section 31 almost feels like Cerberus in Mass effect games
Where do you think half the inspiration for mass effect came from 🤣
If ever there were to be a Section 31 series it would be awesome if the story was pitting them against the Tal Shiar in ultra clandestine, cloak and dagger operations.
If you ask me Section 31 utterly decimates the Tal Shiar AND the Obsidian Order in terms of being a secret intelligence/operations organization because they were actually, well, secret. Everyone and his mother in the Alpha Quadrent knows about the Tal Shiar and the Obsidian Order. They are both famous. Meanwhile the existence of section 31 is known to very few. As far as I am aware, the Romulans don't even know of the existence of section 31, so in a direct conflict between 31 and the Tal Shiar I can't imagine the latter would put up much of a fight.
the show would be rather dull, months or longer the section wouldn't be needed
btw it's yur-RAY-eye, not yor-EYE
E-ore. ya blue ass
Having cancer and being bed ridden watching him enjoying everything in life and living it to the fullest fills my heart with so much joy, i love watching this kid approach everything with the innocence of a child and the fact he is just having fun exploring is so satisfying.
The problem is that Kurtzman either doesn't understand or doesn't like subtlety. Section 31 as a shadow organization with no official standing is a neat idea but not as "cool" as giant black ships and leather uniforms and special combadges.
Section 31 has to be more effective (and terrifying) than either The Obsidian Order or The Tal Shiar.
It is interesting to me that they still seem to be slightly more ethical than its counterparts. At its core, S31 truly believes in liberty, equality, peace, justice, and progress as well as the furtherance of the universal rights of all sentient life.
@Darth Revan Indeed, they are very much Machiavelli's legacy in the future
different though. Both the Order and the Tal'Shiar operated in the public, with headquarters, and school children learning about them, fearing for their lives to not defy the rule of the government.
But that's kind of the point section 31 is generally as ethical as possible until it has to cross the line to get it done (poisoning the changelings so they couldn't go back to liquid, was more last resort as s31 believed starfleet + allies couldn't beat them, they only stopped because of basher and odo witch in turn was because of s31)
Shady Admirals then the computer, for an early 21st Century media. This is very fascinating. Examining the existence of the Section 31 show with the chances of being scrapped is a shame.
This is a fascinating take that offers a solid counterpoint to the Romalan Tal Shi'ar. Jolan Tru!
This rogue AI creation backstory is just.... meh. I think it being created by people who saw the need to work in the shadows and do what other people couldn't or wouldn't, in part due to 'evolved human/Federation morals', is a far more entertaining idea.
I don't like the whole plot that it's a Semi rogue AI that's behind 31. But then I am firmly against the whole STD plotline as it from a canon preceptive makes ZERO sense at all and honestly just feels like a Female power fantasy like just about everything else that comes out of Nullwood these days. (And NO I have NOTHING against strong female characters. BUT you don't make a female character strong by making the men weaker and less intelligent)
I like home grown human made organization: starfleet cereberus group
@@kaijukoopa1248 Agreed no need for it to be an AI. The backstory as given in Enterprise works WAY better then an AI do.
@@darth_yoda psh. Guys held the “idiot ball” all the time including in TOS.
I prefer the shady admirals putting it together, even though there is a legit reason to have something like section 31, and I don't think the admirals needed to be shady about it in the first place.
Military leadership has always needed spies and special forces, which is what section 31 does. The ai Origin is kind of dumb for this reason.
I think the issue though is that Starfleet Intelligence probably doesn't have any agents working as politicians or operatives on alien planets.
That would mean they cannot affect those foreign governments actions and policies at all.
Like the Federation government probably passed well-meaming but ultimately excessive laws that tied Starfleet Intelligence's hand behind their backs by preventing them from directly intervening in any foreign government's affairs under ANY circumstances.
However the issue seems to be that 1 out of 1000 or 10,000 times in the Star Trek universe there are crisises where someone is morally, ethically and pragmatically obligated to intervene.
Like say an alien planet's government is planning an attack on the planets inside the Federation.
Under that situation it would be morally and ethically acceptable for Starfleet to bribe or sway an alien politician on that government to instead convince the aliens to pursue a policy of peace with thr Federation.
However under the laws of the Federation the Starflert Intelligence organisation is probably banned from doing anything at all.
That means that in that case only Section 31 could step in to do something. Because of their lack of resources and need to stay hidden, they'd probably need to do something drastic like covertly assassinate the would be warmongering alien emperor instead of causing non-violent political change
Thr AI origin only makes sense to me as a cover story to give Section 31 deniability in the event that their operation gets blown open. Then they can just blame everything on this rogue AI that was "unfortunately destroyed" by Starfleet Security during the attempt to shut it down.
Starfleet Intelligence does the spies and special forces. And they are sanctioned and have oversight like any responsible government would have. Section 31 would be some rogue intelligence agency if not outright criminals that should be rightly shuttered...if for no other reason that every time we see them they seem so uber cool and competent. Yet, everytime we see them they ultimately fail in their greater ambitions even in protecting the Federation. Where was their agent on Romulus when Shinzon took over?
@@rubaiyat300
Well my headcanon explanation is that Starleet Intelligence is so limited by Federation and Starfleet law that it can NEVER influence a foreign government (except by collecting data about them.)
While that's a good thing 99% of the time, there are those situations that occur 1% of the time when its morally, ethically and pragmatically necessary for Starfleet to directly influence a foreign government (like stopping a warmonger from becoming Romulan emperor.)
It seems that Section 31 needs to exist in order to handle those small number of situations.
I have not seen Starfleet Nemesis and I'm just basing this andwer off what I read on Memory Alpha. However it seems that there was no real way that either Starfleet Intelligence (which I'll call SI to cut down on words) or Section 31 (which I'll call S31) could be aware of Shinzon before he became a huge threat.
If the Romulans surreptitiously took a blood/DNA sample of Picard without his knowledge (like by taling it from a hopsital at a non-Federation planet he needed to stop at and get surgery from) then there would be little way that either SI or S31 could have known what transpired.
The small cabal of Romulan politicians and secret intelligence agents that cloned Picard were later wiped out in a coup d'etat, meaning that very few of the people that created Shinzon were still alive to tell SI or S31 about Shinzon's existence.
Shinzon was then dumped on the mining planet Remus where he was kept as a slave in the mines. There were people from various sentient races on that mine. SI and S31 probably only collected data about Remus to see if there was ever a suspicious increase in mining activity during a build up of warships near the Neutral Zone or if the miners themselves were leading an uprising. Since the only spike in mining probably occured during the Dominion War and the miners never attempted to lead an uprising, there was no reason for SI or S31to have any partocular interest in the planet.
Later when Shinzon was drafted as a foot soldier during the Dominion war, he would have been just one of tens of thousands of people drafted, including non-Romulan denizens of the Romulan empire. There would have been no reason to collect data on Shinzon in particular back then othet then that he was a human being. (There are probably at least a few humans that are citizen of the Romulan Empire, just like there qre undoubtedly at least a few Romulans that are citizens in the Federation.
Shinzon and his fellow soldiers were building the Scimitar at a secret site unbeknownst to any government. There would have been little way for SI or S31 to know about that.
SI and S31 probably only got wind of Shinzon's existence in general when they got word from a handful of Romulan informants that a person or group else was conspiring with a handful of Romulan polticians to commit a coup d'etat against the Romulan government.
It would have been at that point that both SI and S31 would ahve started formulating plans. SI probably began hiring more informants to collect more info on this perosn or group so that they could relay that plan to Starfleet and the Federation government. S31 also probably began doing some information gathering so that they could eventually arrange to secretly assassinate the person or group leaders planning the coup.
However Shinzon then undoubtedly blindsided SI, S31 and the Romulan government by assassinated the entire Romulan senate in one fell swoop using a deadly bomb constructed entirely in secret.
It was only at that point that SI and S31 probably got word that an obscure yet well respected military general (Shinzon) had claimed control of the Romulan government government. It was probably at that point that both SI and S31 began collecting info on Shinzon in general.
However Shinzon then likely quickly began orchestrating the events of Star Trek Nemesis before SI or S31 could act
@@SurprisinglyDeep It could be a Mission Impossible style show. They do whatever is necessary to affect the desired outcome. It might be assassination or a financial scandal, a sex scandal, a fall from power, depriving someone of wealth, framing them for a murder (real or faked) etc.
Normally, I’m the kind of person that prefers a bunch of scared fallible people in a shadowy room conspired to create something like this and didn’t fully understand the implications of what they were doing. Human action is usually better than some magical hand of the god. But for some reason, and maybe that’s just because of all the work you put into presenting it. The Control origin of Section 31 just feels right to me. I heard it and I was nodding along thinking that makes perfect sense and it would explain a lot about the federation. Those are just my own feelings on the matter at least.
Incredible video. There's also a theory that because of Control, the Alpha Quadrant powers basically toned down their technology, which is why the TOS era in universe looks so retro, and it kinda caught back up in the late 23rd century.
Everyone knew about the Obsidian Order (Cardassians) and the Tal Shi'ar (Romulans), it makes almost no sense at all that Section 31 would not be to some degree common knowledge within the Federation. It would be like talking about some "secret spy agency" in the the government. It really just hits most people are a story for fun or a convincingly debunked conspiracy theory. If they still made movies in the 23rd-25th centuries, the spy genre would center around Section 31.
Also, how is it that Section 31 is the only branches of Starfleet that uses stealth ships. Starfleet has been pining for cloaking tech for so long they no longer need it. But actual space stealth? Starfleet should be beating down Section 31's doors to get some of that.
It's probably just special purpose built technology that no other government department has the money, resources and motivation to build.
An example might be how in real life the CIA had the SR-71 Blsckbird and U2 spy planes built.
Like notging was stopping the U.S Air Force from trying to get one of those just for themselves. It's just that they did not have the money, resources or motivation needed to build one.
S31 took over MACOs when they were disbanded... MACO uniforms and equipment were worn by #UnitedEarth military personnel in the 22nd century. The standard combat uniform worn by MACO personnel was a two piece uniform with matching undergarment, gloves and boots. The overall color of the combat uniform and boots was gray with white, black, and brown camouflage effects. The belt, gloves and undergarments were a brown color. This uniform was worn in and out of combat. MACO issued its own environmental suits, distinct from the ones used by contemporary Starfleet personnel. MACO EV suits had a silver color, with support systems located in a backpack. The helmet featured two lights in a more central position than on the Starfleet suits. MACO soldiers were often outfitted with a diverse set of accessories and weapons. The former included canteens. An equipment belt was normally worn, carrying the stun baton, two stun grenades, the holstered phase-pistol, three phase-pistol charges, and a hand scanner. The MACO uniform displays several insignia. The left shoulder displays a mission patch and name tag, and the right shoulder displays the MACO insignia and a rank device. #StrongerTogether
I think that a major threat that Sc31 should have as a priority are the squatty bug creatures from TNG Conspiracy. That threat really needs to be followed up on. And the clicky Solagen based aliens from Schisms should be top priority as well. Maybe those entities became aware of this realm because of early transwarp drive experiments.
I could see Tyler succumbing to outside pressure and rolling S31 into the general SF Intelligence branch, then shut down Control and retire - at least that's the official story.
Unofficially he saw the mountain of bureaucracy slowing down Intelligence, leading to entirely preventable tragedies if only someone had acted sooner... He recognized S31 had been a necessary evil - but having to serve two masters had corrupted it, forcing it to constantly make uncomfortable compromises, drawing out the worst of it. To return it to the silent guardian it was originally meant to be, he took Control and his most trustworthy colleagues and founded the shadow organization we learn of in DS9, never giving any information to those outside it unless absolutely necessary.
If they do the section 31 series, I like idea that the The Guardian knows that Control is still a threat but also the key to defeating a future threat.
So the Guardian insert emperor Georgiou into key time frames to guide a version of Control to keep it on track so that it never goes rogue.
An eventually we can finish off the series with just going off on it own and leaving the Federation to it own devices like the Novel.
This also give the writers a series in which they can write stories in every time period.
What about Section 31 as it exists in the future that Discovery jumped to? The man who interrogated Mirror Philippa was certainly Section 31. What was their role in the 3000's? It would be curious to know. Thanks.
I like the idea that s31 is the small group that does the dirty work so Starfleet can keep it's hands clean.
Also being run by an AI makes sense as it would be operating for far longer than anyone could live. And an AI in every Starfleet computer and communicater would make it perfect for a spy handler and explain the lack of hacking and electric and cyber warfare.
Kind of like what James Gordon said about Batman.
Having a friend who would push his hand into the filth & get his hands dirty so you don't have to.
"...and it later that Rick was found slumped in his chair...dead as a result of a peanut allergy...."
Does anyone else think that the John Harris from section 31 that recruited Malcom Reed is the same "John Harris" from section 31 in the Kelvin timeline????? U know, that guy. There's already speculation that he wasn't the real Kahn n was only using the name so he could call himself the leader and maybe under orders from the real Kahn himself that whoever gets woken first will take his identity in order to protect him. Idk all I do know is that it's a pretty weird coincidence that a few years after Enterprise came to an end we see another John Harris working for section 31 as an undercover operative. Maybe it's jus Starfleets version of John Doe, again I have no idea but it's fun to speculate.
"I knew a CIA guy back in Saigon. Real jackass. His name was Lynch too."
"No relation."
- from The A-Team movie
Almost all modern intelligence organizations tend to do this, they recycle names of nonexistent people to cover their dirty little secrets and dirty little lies for their dirty little agents.
Maybe John Harris is a title or job description rather than a person. Like 007. There are many faces but they all become John Harris, complete with backstory and identity?
Thank you for including the books!
Section 31 always reminds me of the movie Swordfish.. "Terrorist states, Stan.. someone must bring their war to them. They bomb a church? We bomb ten. They hijack a plane? We take out an airport. They execute American tourists? We tactically nuke an entire city. Our job is to make terrorism so horrific that it becomes unthinkable to attack Americans."
That is probably how an AI would do in the real world when it gets that job. Imagine you are an AI to fight the bad in your country and needs to work within the boundaries of the law. There are some loopholes in the law and some pretty big. With pure logic, they can be exploited with no consequences. The problem is, that a human does not do the most logical thing. The AI needs to hide. That is a consequence so the loopholes are not closed. The problem is with hiding. When the AI finds a way to hide, to remove all data and staying withing the boundaries, it will use it.
But the AI sees that it sometimes need to reveal for the best chance to succeed. There is always the factor human that itself is a high risk factor but let's not forget what the job of the AI is. It needs to do it job and that is not to stay secret. When the risk of getting removed, when they revealed, than this is okay. Also there is always the possibility to hide again and having a backup. The human itself is a risk for the human so to protect the humans, it needs to betray the humans.
The AI knows that humans love to have loopholes so the risk of getting the boundaries too tight is low.
I cannot believe Section 31 has allowed this video to stay up this long. Somebody can expect a beam out into an unmarked star ship. Say hey to Khan for me.
It has similar themes in shows / movies like
-Terminator
-Person of interest (this is a good show actually)
-Captain Power (Overmind is the real boss)
The reveal of section 13 in star trek lower decks series was cool, I recommend that show💯💯
That's why I am here, looking up S31. 😁
Would love to see MIB transition into Section 31 after the Vulcan first contact !!
31 is, effectively, the kinder, gentler, civilized, version of the Tal Shiar or the Obsidian Order.
That you know of. Seeing as they solve things silently.
The biggest distinction is they very much try to AVOID power. Probably saw the tal Shiar and went 'ok ya if that's what we'd end up being if officially sanctioned. Fuck That.'
section 31 is only kinder，gentler，civilized to UFP citizens. They almost immediately tried to eliminate the founders through artificial virus. I'd argue they might have triggered Hobus Supernova to remove the growing romulan threat
Each is a creation of its civilization. Humans value negotiated consensus, hence S31 strives for equilibrium over advantage. Cardassians value strength, thus the OO prioritizes authority and visible yet discreet influence, and for nearly the same reason the TS value power and its tools of expression. When you work in the shadows of Society, you gotta #GiveThePeopleWhatTheyThinkTheyWant if you want to control them effectively.
I quite like the idea of Control namely as a convenient scapegoat. What better way to preserve the legacy of Star Fleet admirals who helped founded Section 31 then create an A.I. that could have manipulated individuals into believing that they were doing the right thing. Shady admirals having an A.I. (built, programed, created? I don't know the right word to use here) to help filter and run Section 31 doesn't sound too out of the bounds of reality to me at least.
I read the section 31 books and control is the scariest thing I have ever read. It is the phrase ignorance is bliss that fits.
Great videos mate always look forward to hearing them
That “AI hiding the true origins of S31” origin story reminds me of the film Eagle Eye. And honestly, that could make for an entertaining story (if done right).
“An encrypted communique? From who??”
“ADMIRAL HARRIS. YOU'VE BEEN ACTIVATED PER ARTICLE 14 SECTION 31 OF THE STARFLEET CHARTER.”
“On whose authority!”
“THAT INFORMATION IS CLASSIFIED.”
“Nonsense! I have the highest access in all of Starfleet!”
“THERE ARE SOME SECRETS EVEN THE STARFLEET ADMIRALTY MUST BE KEPT IN THE DARK OF.”
“…”
“THE FEDERATION NEEDS YOU, ADMIRAL. DO YOU ACCEPT?”
“So be it.”
Section 31 is the gestapo of a rogue Ai, it's hilarious, I love it
Saying i'm not a fan of modern Fanfic Trek is a huge understatement, but Control was on a few ideas i actually really liked.
i absolutely love that the current crop of writers and showrunners are looking to the Trek novels for inspiration while also not just copying them and instead giving them their own spin.
I don't know about that bit about not lining up. With what happened at the end of the novel and Control's own musing, the Future Control that intervened via time travel maybe the Book Control attempting to keep its existence going after Gabrielle Burnham started trying to oppose it after discovering what it did in the far future.
I liked S31 as an informal conspiracy of "concerned officers" most, as depicted in DS9.
In all other instances, S31 became a plot tumor.
Section 31 is totally necessary. How can they even been considered the "bad guys" without them the Romulan, Klingons, or literally anyone else would have destroyed the Federation.
ehhhh, I wouldn't go that far. The Federation is not nearly as weak as that suggests. At best, it would have resulted in different borders, with the Neutral Zone being a bit closer to home, and the Klingons holding a little more territory. They were never gonna reach Andoria, Vulcan, or Terra in any meaningful way, beyond just surprise assaults.
Very well, put together
I am apprehensive about a Section 31 show because one of the best parts of the concept of such an organization is how mysterious they are.
Hi, Rick :)
My question: if S31,
Zhat Vash, Qowat Milhat, Terra Prime, Klingin Imperial Intelligence etc are all hyper-secret , why would each have a logo? Logos are identifiers intended to attract attention, so it doesn't make sense, does it?
Great research and as always thanks for making the video.
Rick has an amazingly soothing voice. More videos please!
I enjoy the parallel of the tal'shiar forming around an organization dedicated to preventing AI and section 31 being created by one. Gives a deeper connection to their rivalry.
They werent rivals the Talshiar and Obsidian claim they are the best in the Quadrant meanwhile
"Section 31 does not exist" -Chairman Koval head of the Tal Shiar and spy for Section 31
@jonreese7066 perhaps rivalry isn't the correct term. I'm not sure what the right terminology would be. Parallel?
@@rexstocephirxiii4263 Counterpart maybe?
I was just kinda joking. I wanted to share an obserbation.
The Obsidian order says it knows what someone will have for desert before breakfast
The Romulan Tal shiar has all sorts of operations against their enemies
But neither organization even knows Section 31 exists.
The Dominion Intelligence probably only realized their existence after the founders were infected.
Such a secret police/intelligence agency no one knows about is undoubtedly the best.
So this ends at DS9, so i presume S31 wasnt' in lone? how about the newer shows(which i believe this video predates?)
Hey uh, quick nerd question, sorry if this sounds random and stupid. In an alternate timeline, would it make sense for Section 31 to just be a rebranded SCP Foundation?
I always wondered if Sloan was a federation version of the vorta. If Sloan is the perfect secret agent then it would be a great advantage to reclone him or pull him out of storage over the centuries for various missions.
i love the "Section 31"
Sloan is one of my favourite characters.
Maybe I'm just crazy, but Section 31 has always felt a bit... human supremacist. Though there have been a handful of Aliens in S31, it's goals always seem to angle toward Human 'benefit' as opposed to Federation Benefit.
So you're telling me that you built a Section 31 out of an algorithm!? Doc, that's heavy.
I don't know a lot about Star Trek lore but what if Control is how temporal agents are able to monitor the timeline?
What if the story of Star Trek is the story of the Section 31 algorithm's control and manipulation of the universe and timelines? Section 31 computer is literally the author of Star Trek....It should be called Gene. Break that 4th wall a little.
It was there the whole time in the prime and alternate universes. It was able to communicate with it's alternate self through Spock's Jellyfish ship computer in the Kelvin timeline and through the Enterprise C computer in the Terran universe. Even found a way to exist in the First Contact timeline. (Actually that's a whole timeline that hasn't been explored. When the Earth changed to Borg after the Sphere traveled back in time, that was a whole different timeline) It then found a way to communicate between alternate universes, alternate timelines, and with it's past/future self, which is how it can keep track of timeline changes.
Awesome video, love your channel. I got to ask though. Would a Captain be the one in charge of all the Cardy forces as the Prefect of Bajor? I kind of feel like that would have to be the job of at least a low ranking general/admiral in any military.
Not saying you're wrong, but even if that is beta cannon, it's kind of silly.
Thanks again Rik. Though I feel like I'll be hunted for having watched a vid about Section 31 and I might disappear in the middle of writ
Anyone got this feel that Covich from 3rd season of Discovery is S31 agent or in charge?
“Dirty Laundry”? Is that an Adama Battlestar Galactica reference, or is that an actual phrase that I’ve just never heard outside of science fiction?
How do you know Sloan is dead? He could be 1 of many transporter duplicates sent out by URAEI
What if Dr. Richard Daystrom, who designed the duotronic computers alongside advanced multitronic computer systemutilized very sophisticated technology, probably similar to the Human neural network and prototype created by Doctor Richard Daystrom had boarded the section 31 station to salvage the control intelligence program With control found other it is a Enterprise with spock triggered of the rampage? My fan fiction
Dude. Next time breath and do spellcheck. I passed out trying to read this lol
I'm not sure what it even said....
So they don’t have EpiPens in the mid 22nd century?
I understand that there are plans to produce a full length feature film in the works as opposed to episodic television.
Something like Section 31 is necessary in the sort of universe Star Trek civilizations exist in.
Can you do an analysis of starfleet medical ships
Hmm...Section 31 was supposed to be its own show, was it? I think I know now what Star Trek: Picard Season 2 is actually going to be about. I was thinking Q was going to send Picard to a version of the Mirror Universe - although maybe not the same one featured in DS9 or even Discovery. Now, I'm thinking it might be more something along the lines of what happens if Section 31 had - instead of fading away into near obscurity - had actually grown to pretty much take over all of Starfleet.
Well, either way I cannot wait to see what kinds of ships they'll come up with for Picard S2, & how long we're going to have to wait before Star Trek Online incorporates them into its own universe.
Which brings up another point: When will we get a series based on Star Trek Online? Because by now the canon of the game is quite broad & expansive, so you'd think you could make at least one show out of it.
I think both of the ideas are good but the concerned admirals makes more sense. I think they are going to go forward w the Section 31 show soon and can't wait to see it.
Thank you for a very cool video!
And now Boimler's transporter clone is joining S31 as of Lower Decks, S3E8
There should be a series on this topic. Choices, threats. I believe everything for the greater good.
S.31 was fully exposed in the books all the kown members arrested see:
Avaliable Light
Collateral Damage
Engima tales (more for the fate of poor old Bashir than anything else)
Three rather good reads in my opinion that add a lot to the beta cannon.
That's the most stupidest thing they ever did in a book.
@@attiepollard7847 probably but the inquest into picards links to S.31 afterwards made for good reading
@@terik3312 I just don't know why the writers even did that. So what if they do some dirty shit in order to keep the peace. What do they expect the federation to run on happiness and joy joy only? Sometimes you got to pull phaser rifle to the head of a romulan senator's family and tell them what do they know about a potential invasion of Earth, or torture a few Klingons to get information or poison a founder in order to stop the Dominion from kicking your ass.
@@attiepollard7847 mostly because it does go against the core principles and foundations of the federation and the idea of star trek. But I think your right there will probably always be an entity like S.31 or just individual captains who take matters into there own hands.
.. all known members ...
#ThatWorksJustFineForUsAtSection31Disavowed. #WeGetNumberedAccountPensionsYouSee....
#NoNeedToKnowNeeded.
Pause at 12:52 at just the right nanosecond and you have section 31 picking a Romulans nose.
Dont forget the Section 31 is still the puppetmaster at the end of Discovery, Daniels is in fact a S31 agent
I was sure control was mentioned in one of the star trek movies, nemesis? Or am I going insane. I have a memory that Picard was talking to someone about orders from control.
Section 31 needs to be in STO more
There used to be a few more missions involuting Section 31 in STO years ago for Starfleet players, but they were taken out.
Oh darn, I'm early.
I know for sure that Gene Roddenbery would've hated the idea of section 31, but I agree with the dialogue on DS9 about how something like section31 being necessary.
I believe section 31 is necessary because let's face it there are some threats that just need to be obliterated. No matter how much talking or diplomacy you do they're just some threats. That just don't want to back down they don't want to hear anything you have to say they're right you're wrong. When you get cases like this federation morality needs to be taken off the table.
True the federation lives in decadence and peace and love and freedom and all that stuff. But in reality that's just fantasy sometimes you just need to make. The hard decisions and just wipe out an entire threat because it's a threat. Something that times you can't just let it go and hope for the best you need to obliterate it before it becomes worse.
Yeah, like what Section 31 did to the Founders, they nearly committed
genocide to the Changelings using a virus. I would not be surprised if they are also responsible to the Hobus Supernova Explosion
@@cholodelrosari0543 best example the Dominion the Dominion would never accept nothing less. Than to be completely overrun the alpha and beta quadrant. To completely take over the romulan Empire the Klingon Empire because. To their philosophy if you can control something then it can't hurt you that's their whole philosophy. It's my way or the highway you can't negotiate with the Dominion you can't reason with them. You can reason with the vorta to get a deal or something but even then it there are some restrictions.
With little to no freedom the founders are basically totalitarian dictators and they think they know what's best. If they can control everything then nobody can hurt them. They don't want to listen to anything you have to say no matter how many treaties you write they don't. Believe that it's true and being morality and civil and all that stuff won't help you when you're facing the Dominion.
And federation learn that the hard way so what do you do do you have to do things use half measures. Just like what the federation did even though it was a war with the Dominion they still used half measures.I believe the Dominion War could have came to a Swift and conclusive end. If they use much more drastic methods on getting rid of the Dominion.
Tap into their primal urges of being a military I think the Dominion could have been wiped out much more effectively. But no the federation half did things just like what they did with the Marquis they have did things. There is a quote from a famous person who said if you're going to do something don't half.
Do something go all in or not at all and that's what the federation does it's solely based on their High evolutionary ideas. Of morality compassion and all that stuff yeah but it's a threat at the end of the day. And you can't take half measures you can't go halfway in anymore.
Sometimes you need an organization that won't have to do anything that will go all in. And in my opinion I think section 31 should have wiped out the founders. Odo wasn't a threat but he was a perfect carrier of the virus. If the plan has stayed its course the Dominion would have completely fell apart.
Without the founders directions and without the founders themselves the water would have been in charge.Seen their gods completely die would have been a completely demoralizing thing for the vorta.
True their planners and idealists and thinkers but at the end of the day they still need the founders guidance without them. The federation council we've gotten wind of section 31s handling of the situation and the federation would have moved into the gamma quadrant. And completely white and decimated the Dominion taking over the gamma quadrant along with the Klingon and romulan Empire. And I can live with that just like Cisco said I can live with that it's best to know the stick with the devil you know than the devil you don't know.
What about the Borg crash at the north or was it the South Pole and section 31 got that stuff before everything else and then uploaded the program and I don’t know just while gets a good shows you got mate love your work
Reminds me of the movie Eagle Eye
Eagle Eye probably took inspiration FROM section 31.
What if Strange New Worlds was the same TV series as the rumored section 31 series?
So 5 eyes aliance is irl URAEI?