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I luv watching Shane's work but I always smile at myself when he starts to lose me as he goes deeper into the explanations and behond my ability to understand brilliant teacher tho
I use far red indoors at the beginning and end of the light cycle to simulate the sunrise and sunset. It will help slowly wake your plants as well as help put them to sleep much better than a sudden on/off of the lights.
Is this the Dr Bugbee video you're referring to? ua-cam.com/video/sS7aAcacfgk/v-deo.html It was recommended to me next by UA-cam so of course I had to watch it ;-) I love that guy and find him a trove of information.
@@ConsciusVeritasVids Bruce Bugbee and his team at Utah University are Geniuses doing awesome things, I watch all his videos and learn so much, he teaches like your sitting in one of his classes, great videos I suggest anyone trying to Soak up as much info on Growing as possible like I am to watch the apogee Bruce Bugbe videos, I guarentee you'll learn something new every video you watch, atleast I do, but I'm also a fairly new grower going only on my 4th yr of growing Canibus.
Of topic; he also explained the npk levels of 20-10-20 being optimal true out the grow phase. I’m still finding new content about it but it just seems so incredible. Would 20-10-20 be the perfect solution?
Mgm Grant Idk, On a big outdoors Grow one summer I used Jacks 20-20-20 and 20-6-22 switching up every 4 days or so like one watering I’d give the 20-20-20 and then like 4 days later the 20-6-22 and switch back and forth, then in Flower I used jacks 5-50-18 and I got great results, idk about 20-10-20 but it’s close to 20-6-22 which is really good!
It helps Cannabis to go to sleep... In the evening (and morning) the sun emits "more" red. 15min in the evening are enough for this... great channel. Greetings from a polish guy in germanistan
That is my understanding as well. Unfortunately, it’s only anecdotal. Most people do 12/12 to induce flowering. Years ago I heard of an acquaintance of a friend in the 39-40 latitude of Northern California using a red light at sunset to induce flowering Blue Dream during the middle of summer, rather than pulling tarps in a light dep. Have you experimented with this? I’m curious how much and how long the light would need to be on, as well as what brand/intensity. I’m assuming 15 to 30 minutes in the evening would be a good starting point to test.
@@snowsurfr ...decrease the light last 2 weeks of flowering step by step down to 10/10.30h... And wait with watering sometimes as long as all leafs start hanging... Slowly watering... If soil or coco is used of course.... Maybe youre doing this already... If not, try... As in nature, the ladies will realize time is over soon(-;
@@snowsurfr ...the dark period is crucial. Hope this is the right word. I know people doing a 12h night / 13h day... and last weeks they go down to 10/10.30h day... The darkness is important for the terps, decreasing sugar and more... What I can say definitely, LEDs with more red 660Nm - 730Nm "producing" more colourful buds... And maybe a little bit more. But the "more", if there is one, is insignificant I would say... Dont buy the cheapest LEDs if possible. Not every cheap is bad but Ive seen the difference....
There may be no studies on this for cannabis, but after using a light with 1/4 of the wattage (800w light, 200w R:FR) going to R:FR (2:1) I've noticed at minimum 10 days faster flowering on every strain I've run thus far. On my 4th run and at 50 days I'm almost all cloudy.
timing is everything. far red in early veg, to get the branches to initially stretch for shaping/training the plant, then more blue, to get a compact canopy, then back to red for flowering. KEvron
My evidence would suggest it cuts 7 to10 days off flower time when on for the last half hour of light 15 minutes either side. Meaning FR is on 15 minutes after lights out and 15 before lights out.
I've watched Bugby and Runkle, very technical and informative. You make the info much more enjoyable to listen to and user friendly. Still trying to watch all you of your content, I'm getting there. Thanks Shane
I’m a Harley smith fan, he says far red light is most effective on long day flowering plants at the end of the day rather than during the day. His reasoning for this was that in nature that’s when there’s the most far red light. I don’t know if this is correct but it’s what I remember hearing
Great info I was starting to get a little confused with all the manufacturers jumping on the IR bandwagon. I am not growing lettuce here lol Thanks, Shane You have been a great source of information. I was reading 10 year old books on the subject before I found your channel. I appreciate you decoding all of this information and explaining it in a way that people can easily understand. Great job
Me too.. especially since most have only a single ir diodes., ive made a array from diodes and an arduino board.. added i.rv to the grow tent.. total cost was $6 the I.r market hype is adding way too much cost to justify the addition imo. :)
I don't mean to be know it all, but you can check it out if you are a plant enthusiast. It's more of the type of crop you have. If you have a short day plant , an increased "dark time" that induces the flowering is not really because it "sleeps" or "rests". It's more of another photoreceptor, called phytochrome. They're quite similar to chlorophyll, wherein it absorbs certain kinds of wavelength, in this case, it's capable of absorbing red and far-red. Unlike chlorophyll however, it's purpose is not to produce energy, but to determine and signal that it's time for a developmental phenomena (e.g. flowering, germination, shade avoidance, etc.). How? Well it depends on the light composition. When red light is abundant (bright), phytochrome takes the "Pfr" form which is flower inducing to long day plants but flower inhibiting to short day plants. When far-red is abundant which is typical under darkness, phytochrome takes the "Pr" form, which in this case is flower inducing to short day and inhibiting to long day plants. Cryptochromes, blue light absorbing receptors, play also a crucial role to flower induction, they can also be a something on their own but also highly intertwined with phytochromes. How the plant translates this to the florigen production is a whole lot (and diverse)of processes from protein and genome interaction. It's an extensive field, but a lot remains elusive even within the scientific community. :)
Shane since your interview with Bruce bugbee I felt deeper into that materia .... Looked all of his presentations on UA-cam. As always very informative and good collection of content... Thanks from austria for publishing and please keep on the good work!
At 6:16 i think only photoperiod cannabis was taken into account. But autoflowers use around 18 hours of light per day, so infrared should help with flowering of autoflowers.
Good studies at Utah State. Been doing my first experiment with lots of far red. Yes, my plants are stretched, but the buds fill in all that streched out space, leaving large nugs all over my best plant. Not only that, my tricombs are almost double in size from my last grow with UV. The main test will be the product quality. If you buy a normally small auto flower, I'm guessing with far red, it will not be a small plant, it will increase the size by double.
@@drexb5213 finding that high blues with far red work best for a dense bud. High ratios of phosphorus will create large amounts of biomass, which I think is good, for extraction. @ Matthews Medicinals
You've said at the end on screen that it's not useful for short day flowering, however earlier you said there was not enough evidence on if it was or was not useful. An absence of evidence means you don't know either way surely?
@@MIGROLIGHT point was the absence of evidence means that you cannot draw conclusions about efficacy either way. You need evidence to be able to say it's not effective, just the same as you need evidence to be able to say it is effective. All you can say it you have no evidence either way.
@@TheSaak then why not put that on screen rather than assert it not useful. "Unknown efficacy for short day plants" would be the scientifically correct assertion. I just don't like bad science and Shane is normally very good, which is why I mentioned it.
Hello , thank you for sharing this but i believe that i have a total different perspective on that subject.Let me elaborate ill put also to the "for" section that u actually get a week faster on higher percentage of far red thats a plus for cannabis at least from a manufacturing perspective.Also u are actually seeing far red as a solo acting light and thats what mcree did but he had no gear or tech. i think that if u regulate the uv and blue percentage u can find a sweet spot and have the same or even better results. Lets say its even on yield and you add co2 and help the metabolism and we know it was a week early from the previous study that shows me faster metabolism of the plant in general so the additional co2 would lead to additional photosynthesis that would led to bigger plant biger overall mass and thats for me more yield.also on your "against" i would say that there is no mass production on far red so the chips are expensive and not putting that much out but i believe the market will get there as it happened with the white led chips 2 years ago. Lm301b nice chip effective and cheap but its on a production line.and if there is cell expansion why it would stop at leaves ? buds dont have cells? Its not my field of expertise but i read alot of articles and studys especially dr bugbee cause i think his research atm is top at his field.I believe we will see the first results in a month or so and will have alot of testing for companys producing cannabis in the us at least.Love to hear your opinions on the subject.Awesome videos and also would like to ask u what do u prefer atm as far as tech goes strips to cover evenly the area or board like designs? P.s Another food for thought as i would like to say . uv according to bugbee study is absorbed and the plant start to get a tolerance to it producing more trichoma etc so if we find the sweet spot on that and make a more resin trichoma plant and then we cross it again with another pheno with the same plus charachteristics wouldnt that give us a plant with higher resin and trichoma production?
Either way cell expansion in bud probably isn’t favourable unless u want airy buds but sped up metabolism accompanied with the increase of far red like u said would be beneficial and something I wouldn’t mind experimenting with
If you’d aim for enhancing flower size of a plant which a cannabis grower might want. Would it be beneficial to add far red radiation during the flower period only? I would imagine that you could get a nice compact growth during veg and then kick it off with extra levels of far red. How might this play out for sprouting plants during the cotyledons stage? With the look out on microgreens which are tightly sown. Could far red result in a more even groth? If you Push density, there are often sprouts left behind below the canopy which can start rotting.
Excellent informative video Shane. Whatcha got going on in the background? Do I see a lettuce side by side in the works? What most indoor gardeners are after is finished produce being "Sun Like". Especially growing crops like lettuce. How can you make a wrap with a bonsai sized Far-Red Deficient LED grown head of lettuce? For cannabis "compact" can me detrimental as well. Many genetics were bread to Stretch up to 3x during flip and that is where the yield comes from. Long branches with nuggets all the way down. That is the #1 complaint about most led's it that that bonsai the plant. That along with nutrient imbalances. Keep up the Great Work!
You should try and let us know ! Unfortunately nobody really tried in a scientific and significant way . No papers has been published for that. It seems like it could be a good idea. The problem I see with that is that it’s not because you have faster longer stems that the buds will actually get bigger. When cannabis is stretched during veg, it’s often a sign of not optimal growth , hence reducing the end quality of the product.
@@sigmastodon I think that if 10% far fed is enough to make your plants stretch that there is something missing in the blue range of the spectrum and I also believe that far red is more a metabolic trigger than photosynthetic. The sun depending on where you are and what the season is has far more than 10% far red and I don't think God got it wrong, Light spectrum is a recipe and if you can duplicate the sun you are doing it right.
I wonder how much of an attempt has been made by the autoflower growers. Love your channel, sir. Thank you for doing what you do. I’m Running Nextlight Mega Pros but also adding the new Nextlight plus pros and I’m almost certain I will be getting your UVB Bulbs for supplemental at the end of flower for terp production. Just can’t get away from the far red, and I am running autoflowers as well as photos. 🤔 Great video. Cheers 💨
Autoflowers are 'neutral day' plants. We extend their flowering day to 18-24 hrs of full spectrum light but we reduce PAR so their DLI's are similar. Does Far Red impact neutral day auto's the same way it impacts short day photos? I wonder if fast autos react to Far Red like long day plants and slow autos react to Far Red like short day photos?
Emerson effect ( eg .deep red 660 nm-IR 730 combo) is similar to having blue.. the ir kind of cancels out the streach. It also affects stem thickness.. And we know that nutrients are using the skin tissue to travel... From what I gathered ....
@@FinehomesofNewHampshire I'm talking about significant amounts, and can be fine tuned. How much UVB does a CDM have for example? Not a "significant" amount.
In Woodland, Bluebells flowering is triggered by %far-red which increases as leaves develop on the trees above. As you explained, far red travels through leaves, thus the full canopy forest has high far red at ground level! Theory: Establish a good canopy with your plants and keep your hands away from removing Lower leaves until flowering has been established, for a few weeks, at lower nighttime temperature = less stretch more yeild.
Could y'all but have just answered his question instead of leaving 2 useless comments? Like what was the point? Congrats you guys are smart, I hope your plants are absolutely perfect by the way you respond🤔
what country are you in? why not Meijui? ES are obvious high end beasts but you could get 2 300 equivalents for much less with the same far red diodes. Im using a name brand beside. Meiju and I'm ordering another Meijui
@@TheMusicHeals.kjhjhhg good point, ES probably has great customer service. if any part of my boards stop working I'll have to replace that part myself. Only real way to know is to buy one of each. spend 200 and see. China makes good stuff
great info as always, thank you! If I was going to add far red, as you say, it would be a small amount at the correct time to help start flowering, and then off. I wonder if a bit of far red with a bit of UV would help superboost at the end of flowering...
@Andrew Brent Yes, I've been looking into those. Unfortunately, can't get the agromax here in Canada, and any other suppliers that will bring it in are stupid expensive. Will likely be ordering some of the PowerVeg FS+UV.
If you add in additional UV with your IR would it help the photosynthetic ability of the normal PAR grow light. Given the other variables like nutrients and total environment were fair.
This video solved my biggest problem. In an earlier grow I did, I added a RapidLED deep red flowering puck to my 2x4 tent. I had (2) closet case 100’s and I had major stretch when in flower. I thought all this time it was my closet case 100’s but now I’m thinking it was the additional far red. I’ll try it without the next grow and see. Thank you for the lesson. 👽👍
Yeah, you might have run it too much, and it better for already bushy Indica's that could use some stretching. Just use it for flower initiation first (10min far red only after dark starts), and don't use it during the "day" time, or just a little bit
So this video begs the question what does this mean for the ES 180 V2 or the 300 watt version because I have the 180 V2 and I have to say I do get a bit of stretching but I still get solid flowers.But this video makes me wonder alot because as you said all indoor growers want more compact flowers with better density does the electric sky in your opinion fall into the light category that causes to much stretching?
i add a tiny amount primarilly for emerson effect. 7 watts of my 248 watts drawn is far red, only 3% a bit more if i dim my main 3500k cobs but I have no issue with plants stretching since its well within that safe range. I also run it last 15 minutes to try and trigger phytochrome switch or trigger "sleep" in plants, but running 11 on 13 off i dont think there is huge benefit to it in shortening flower period. I hear it can allow indoor flowering under 13 or 14 hours light which is a benefit/goal many growers want out of it.. but ive yet to try/likely won't as I prefer 11/13 and am not in a huge rush to shave a few days off each cycle as a homegrower
How about growing microgreens? Would giving them more far red at the beginning be good to make them stretch faster? And then less far red at the end to make the greens more compact?
the key to this is knowing when to use a specific spectrum, stack the nodes tight in veg(lots of blue) and when you switch to flower turn on the reds for a bit(first 1-2 weeks)and stretch the girls and get some space between all them nodes and then hit her full spec when shes got buds growing~ been doing this with my 2000w Sayhon. they use IR and UV. a GREAT light
had far red 740nm on my homemade led in a micro chamber for several years, because i'm an epistemologist, not a scientist. seen plant after plant grow straight up to it. i'd also use IR if i built another one.
DE HPS with the Ceramic HPS bulbs. You need a loan to buy them but that far red is extremely effective in increasing bud density. Dont put glass over the bulbs as you wouldn't with CMH, you lose the UV & some real far reds
Bonjour en tant que visionneurs français même un an après ta vidéo je te remercie pour la théorie que tu m'as appris, j'ai fait l'acquisition de barre à LED 90 cm infrarouge et ultraviolets de Cosmorrow, 🔥👌
What do you think about harvesting under far red spectrum. I've read that after a dark period plants tend to have a sweeter taste etc. Since the far red put them to sleep would it be safe to assume that waking them up to an hour of far red and another short dark cycle would enhance this effect even further and more efficiently. 🤔
Really appricate the work you put in for the public benefit.🙂 I'm thinking of setting up some microgreens/leafy greens for all year round personal food supply. As I'm trying to see what would be the best way to do this on a budget do you thing it may be worth using far red LEDs to bulk up the yeald and make it value for money? Thanks for all your work!
It would be very interesting to see how and if red lasers can boost the efficiency. You can get very cheap 5V 20mA 660nm laser line modules. If you screw off the lens, it becomes a lot wider and more even although still rather narrow beam, but how would these compare to a 660nm top bin diode? I’ve started experimenting with the this wide red laser line placed 1m above the canopy. It turns on 20 min before lights out and turns off 10 min after lights out. I’m thinking it could be very useful for bloom initiator and/or bloom enhancer. Would love to see some measurements!
Great show I love the information one aspect that I did not hear about was the use of for red for quicker flower development Bruce Bugbee reported that they are still determining but there are signs that for red helps shorten the flowering time from a personal perspective I added far read into my previous garden and noticed a week earlier flower development then from past gardens as well as you did touch on the Emerson effect with these 660 and 730 NM spectrum but I firmly feel that far red does promote earlier flower developments and hope that Bruce Is able to prove is data upon that
I have a custom made quantum board, the guy that designed it said to run the far red a week before flower, and to run it right through flower. It he off his nut or what?.
Hi Shane, have you ever done any experiments by introducing far red (~730nm), just before day end and again at start of day cycle? Some reports saying this simulates sunset and sunrise to the plant. Helps plant get to sleep a lot quicker (vastly simplifying the photochemical reactions of the plant) and wake up faster. Pro grow tip I’ve read too. If so, can you recommend a bulb? Thanks.
Those far-red percentages of light sources you have listed here are based on energy flux not photon flux, right? I've read in an article by Bugbee that natural and cool white LEDs have 20-25% red photon with R:Fr ratio of 5-6 respectively... so Fr flux of white LEDs is about 4% not 2% if we report the flux based on number of photons.
I'd love to see an experiment solely using light outside the traditional par range. Like 350nm uv light in one chamber, far red 730nm and maybe another far red 850nm.
So if i`ll add far red into my auto flower grow , my auto's can be bigger at size? In my understanding red and far red can help me to grow my autoflower bigger than they could be?
Good summary. You could have added the fact that LEDs are pretty efficient for producing far-red photons. Coupled with the Emerson effect it can potentially increase Photosynthetic Photon Efficiency up to 3 to 4 micromoles per Joule. Also quick comment : if you could not moving as much while talking, or at least if the camera was stable, the viewer could have even a better experience. Great video otherwise !
Hello, what is required minimum and optimal intensity of FR light on 1cm2, taking that the height is 40cm? How many WATT per sq. cm? Any formula? Many thanks...
If I want to block out far red LEDs from the grow light what is the best way to do it? Insulation tape? Permanent marker? Nail polish ? What would you suggest
The far-red effect is plant species dependant. NOT all plants will grow taller, some such as spinach/lettuce for example will grow broader, resulting in increased yields. Also, far-red elongation effect on the internodal spacing might be linked to an earlier flower-onset in some cultivars as well.
hey! @MIGRO please could you review this light? FSGTEK 1500w Full Spectrum COB LED Grow Light for Indoor Plants, Veg and Flower, with UV & IR Bulbs Led Plant Light, Hanging Hook Kits (Black) thanks
Another great video Shane. But I have a question what about the electric sky being used to grow cannabis? They do have high amounts of far red don't they.
What do you know about FYI led? Sound good lots of apogee instruments are they related to apogee instruments? Any reviews? They us a lot of red far red 3000k 5000k mix
Dankenstein Corsentino how come you don’t wanna smoke Ruderallis, what’s the downside, I don’t know much about Autos Ive never grown one but Im getting kinda into them and interested so I just got a few really good Auto seeds, a few Bombs seeds and a couple Barney’s farm, are you saying Autos are no good, I don’t know so I’m just wondering why you don’t like Ruderallis, like what about them specifically don’t you like, I’m just trying to learn a little something here, thanks bro!!
@@sickboy8354 autos are a special plant and it's great. ironically the ruderalis is finding it's place in the photo period strains as a fast gene so folks already smoking it and no one can tell the difference
Does a 730nm photon work with P680 or P700 in photosynthesis? I figure a 400nm photon can bounce around, lose energy, and be used by P680 or P700. But a 730nm photon must gain energy to equal the energy of a 700 or 680nm photon. Not sure how the P680 / P700 model comes into play when using photons with less energy than a 700nm photon.
you the man bronado, can we get a qb 288 lm 301h inch by inch/cm by cm, par ratings for the guys that cannot afford the hack? after being broken in, maybe an average loss of 4 - 10% effeciency. so many people looking for the best at a reasonable cost.
I once read in a maximum yield article that far red for a few minutes before dark period could cause a plant to shut down in a fraction of the time as without it. Just uimg it a few minutes before dark period. Any thoughts?
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You're one of the channels that legitimately makes me happy whenever i see a new upload. Thank you for sharing this information👍
🎯
I luv watching Shane's work but I always smile at myself when he starts to lose me as he goes deeper into the explanations and behond my ability to understand brilliant teacher tho
I use far red indoors at the beginning and end of the light cycle to simulate the sunrise and sunset. It will help slowly wake your plants as well as help put them to sleep much better than a sudden on/off of the lights.
there is zero evidence that a sudden on or off shocks the plants or causes any negative effects at all.
@@FirstLast-numba1it’s not about harm, it’s about improvement
@@ewentglobal9480 there is no evidence of improvement.
@@FirstLast-numba1 Not yet, has anyone measured it and disproved there is an improvement?
@@happycakes1946 Dr Bruce Bugbee
Bruce Bugbee is the ultimate light guru.
Great video Shane!
Dr. Bruce Bugbee has a great video on this topic on the Apogee channel, recommend for anyone looking for additional info.
Is this the Dr Bugbee video you're referring to? ua-cam.com/video/sS7aAcacfgk/v-deo.html
It was recommended to me next by UA-cam so of course I had to watch it ;-) I love that guy and find him a trove of information.
@@ConsciusVeritasVids Bruce Bugbee and his team at Utah University are Geniuses doing awesome things, I watch all his videos and learn so much, he teaches like your sitting in one of his classes, great videos I suggest anyone trying to Soak up as much info on Growing as possible like I am to watch the apogee Bruce Bugbe videos, I guarentee you'll learn something new every video you watch, atleast I do, but I'm also a fairly new grower going only on my 4th yr of growing Canibus.
@@ConsciusVeritasVids Yes, that's the video he did on Far Red, great video, so informative!!
Of topic; he also explained the npk levels of 20-10-20 being optimal true out the grow phase. I’m still finding new content about it but it just seems so incredible. Would 20-10-20 be the perfect solution?
Mgm Grant Idk, On a big outdoors Grow one summer I used Jacks 20-20-20 and 20-6-22 switching up every 4 days or so like one watering I’d give the 20-20-20 and then like 4 days later the 20-6-22 and switch back and forth, then in Flower I used jacks 5-50-18 and I got great results, idk about 20-10-20 but it’s close to 20-6-22 which is really good!
It helps Cannabis to go to sleep... In the evening (and morning) the sun emits "more" red. 15min in the evening are enough for this... great channel. Greetings from a polish guy in germanistan
That is my understanding as well. Unfortunately, it’s only anecdotal.
Most people do 12/12 to induce flowering. Years ago I heard of an acquaintance of a friend in the 39-40 latitude of Northern California using a red light at sunset to induce flowering Blue Dream during the middle of summer, rather than pulling tarps in a light dep. Have you experimented with this? I’m curious how much and how long the light would need to be on, as well as what brand/intensity. I’m assuming 15 to 30 minutes in the evening would be a good starting point to test.
@@snowsurfr ...decrease the light last 2 weeks of flowering step by step down to 10/10.30h... And wait with watering sometimes as long as all leafs start hanging... Slowly watering... If soil or coco is used of course.... Maybe youre doing this already... If not, try... As in nature, the ladies will realize time is over soon(-;
@@snowsurfr ua-cam.com/video/sS7aAcacfgk/v-deo.html
@@cza1165 good ideas. Thank you!
Can you use far red at sunset to induce flowering in the middle of summer?
@@snowsurfr ...the dark period is crucial. Hope this is the right word. I know people doing a 12h night / 13h day... and last weeks they go down to 10/10.30h day... The darkness is important for the terps, decreasing sugar and more... What I can say definitely, LEDs with more red 660Nm - 730Nm "producing" more colourful buds... And maybe a little bit more. But the "more", if there is one, is insignificant I would say... Dont buy the cheapest LEDs if possible. Not every cheap is bad but Ive seen the difference....
There may be no studies on this for cannabis, but after using a light with 1/4 of the wattage (800w light, 200w R:FR) going to R:FR (2:1) I've noticed at minimum 10 days faster flowering on every strain I've run thus far. On my 4th run and at 50 days I'm almost all cloudy.
timing is everything. far red in early veg, to get the branches to initially stretch for shaping/training the plant, then more blue, to get a compact canopy, then back to red for flowering.
KEvron
Love it, this is the best channel around for light reviews and such. Subbed
My evidence would suggest it cuts 7 to10 days off flower time when on for the last half hour of light 15 minutes either side. Meaning FR is on 15 minutes after lights out and 15 before lights out.
Very interesting. Is that still proving to be the case? 11 months later, are you still a fan of far red? Thanks
I've watched Bugby and Runkle, very technical and informative. You make the info much more enjoyable to listen to and user friendly. Still trying to watch all you of your content, I'm getting there. Thanks Shane
Thanks Brett.
I’m a Harley smith fan, he says far red light is most effective on long day flowering plants at the end of the day rather than during the day. His reasoning for this was that in nature that’s when there’s the most far red light. I don’t know if this is correct but it’s what I remember hearing
Love Harley Smith!
Love that you know your maths and statistics, Shane! I always look forward to your videos. Thank you for enlightening us all
Great info I was starting to get a little confused with all the manufacturers jumping on the IR bandwagon. I am not growing lettuce here lol Thanks, Shane You have been a great source of information. I was reading 10 year old books on the subject before I found your channel. I appreciate you decoding all of this information and explaining it in a way that people can easily understand. Great job
Me too.. especially since most have only a single ir diodes., ive made a array from diodes and an arduino board.. added i.rv to the grow tent.. total cost was $6 the I.r market hype is adding way too much cost to justify the addition imo. :)
I use it for 15 mins after lights out. I believe it puts the plants to sleep faster, so they are able the produce more Florigen and great vid Shane.
💯 Bro 👌
10
@@iritkanarik3815 no
I don't mean to be know it all, but you can check it out if you are a plant enthusiast. It's more of the type of crop you have. If you have a short day plant , an increased "dark time" that induces the flowering is not really because it "sleeps" or "rests". It's more of another photoreceptor, called phytochrome. They're quite similar to chlorophyll, wherein it absorbs certain kinds of wavelength, in this case, it's capable of absorbing red and far-red. Unlike chlorophyll however, it's purpose is not to produce energy, but to determine and signal that it's time for a developmental phenomena (e.g. flowering, germination, shade avoidance, etc.). How? Well it depends on the light composition. When red light is abundant (bright), phytochrome takes the "Pfr" form which is flower inducing to long day plants but flower inhibiting to short day plants. When far-red is abundant which is typical under darkness, phytochrome takes the "Pr" form, which in this case is flower inducing to short day and inhibiting to long day plants. Cryptochromes, blue light absorbing receptors, play also a crucial role to flower induction, they can also be a something on their own but also highly intertwined with phytochromes. How the plant translates this to the florigen production is a whole lot (and diverse)of processes from protein and genome interaction. It's an extensive field, but a lot remains elusive even within the scientific community. :)
730 nm??
Shane since your interview with Bruce bugbee I felt deeper into that materia ....
Looked all of his presentations on UA-cam.
As always very informative and good collection of content...
Thanks from austria for publishing and please keep on the good work!
Has your opinion on far-red changed? I see your new light comes with a far-red option.
No far reds on his light, only extra deep red 660nm for higher efficiency
Thank you so much shane. You're one of the pioneers of this industry.
Thanks for presenting your understanding of far red and how it might apply to cannabis.
Best informative channel on UA-cam 👍 please keep them coming
At 6:16 i think only photoperiod cannabis was taken into account. But autoflowers use around 18 hours of light per day, so infrared should help with flowering of autoflowers.
Good studies at Utah State. Been doing my first experiment with lots of far red. Yes, my plants are stretched, but the buds fill in all that streched out space, leaving large nugs all over my best plant. Not only that, my tricombs are almost double in size from my last grow with UV. The main test will be the product quality. If you buy a normally small auto flower, I'm guessing with far red, it will not be a small plant, it will increase the size by double.
I wonder how you feel 2 years and many tests after these comment. Are you still convinced by IR ?
@@drexb5213 finding that high blues with far red work best for a dense bud. High ratios of phosphorus will create large amounts of biomass, which I think is good, for extraction. @ Matthews Medicinals
@@m.feaver960 thanks for taking time to share !
Thank you Shane, I've been learning so much from your videos! I hope you can do something like this for UV-A ❤️
You've said at the end on screen that it's not useful for short day flowering, however earlier you said there was not enough evidence on if it was or was not useful. An absence of evidence means you don't know either way surely?
There is no evidence that far red promotes flowering in short day plants that I am aware of.
@@MIGROLIGHT point was the absence of evidence means that you cannot draw conclusions about efficacy either way. You need evidence to be able to say it's not effective, just the same as you need evidence to be able to say it is effective. All you can say it you have no evidence either way.
Craig Hastie I think Shane just meant that it hasn’t been proven useful for short day flowering like it is for long day flowering plants.
@@TheSaak then why not put that on screen rather than assert it not useful. "Unknown efficacy for short day plants" would be the scientifically correct assertion. I just don't like bad science and Shane is normally very good, which is why I mentioned it.
@@MIGROLIGHT what about autoflowers?
The whole video was amazingly informative and high quality. Thank you!
Fascinating, really appreciate your posts thank you Shane
What about how IR affects plants during dark cycle? Like an IR security camera per say? Any Information on that?
Hello , thank you for sharing this but i believe that i have a total different perspective on that subject.Let me elaborate ill put also to the "for" section that u actually get a week faster on higher percentage of far red thats a plus for cannabis at least from a manufacturing perspective.Also u are actually seeing far red as a solo acting light and thats what mcree did but he had no gear or tech. i think that if u regulate the uv and blue percentage u can find a sweet spot and have the same or even better results. Lets say its even on yield and you add co2 and help the metabolism and we know it was a week early from the previous study that shows me faster metabolism of the plant in general so the additional co2 would lead to additional photosynthesis that would led to bigger plant biger overall mass and thats for me more yield.also on your "against" i would say that there is no mass production on far red so the chips are expensive and not putting that much out but i believe the market will get there as it happened with the white led chips 2 years ago. Lm301b nice chip effective and cheap but its on a production line.and if there is cell expansion why it would stop at leaves ? buds dont have cells? Its not my field of expertise but i read alot of articles and studys especially dr bugbee cause i think his research atm is top at his field.I believe we will see the first results in a month or so and will have alot of testing for companys producing cannabis in the us at least.Love to hear your opinions on the subject.Awesome videos and also would like to ask u what do u prefer atm as far as tech goes strips to cover evenly the area or board like designs?
P.s Another food for thought as i would like to say . uv according to bugbee study is absorbed and the plant start to get a tolerance to it producing more trichoma etc so if we find the sweet spot on that and make a more resin trichoma plant and then we cross it again with another pheno with the same plus charachteristics wouldnt that give us a plant with higher resin and trichoma production?
Either way cell expansion in bud probably isn’t favourable unless u want airy buds but sped up metabolism accompanied with the increase of far red like u said would be beneficial and something I wouldn’t mind experimenting with
If you’d aim for enhancing flower size of a plant which a cannabis grower might want. Would it be beneficial to add far red radiation during the flower period only? I would imagine that you could get a nice compact growth during veg and then kick it off with extra levels of far red.
How might this play out for sprouting plants during the cotyledons stage? With the look out on microgreens which are tightly sown. Could far red result in a more even groth? If you Push density, there are often sprouts left behind below the canopy which can start rotting.
Excellent informative video Shane. Whatcha got going on in the background? Do I see a lettuce side by side in the works? What most indoor gardeners are after is finished produce being "Sun Like". Especially growing crops like lettuce. How can you make a wrap with a bonsai sized Far-Red Deficient LED grown head of lettuce? For cannabis "compact" can me detrimental as well. Many genetics were bread to Stretch up to 3x during flip and that is where the yield comes from. Long branches with nuggets all the way down. That is the #1 complaint about most led's it that that bonsai the plant. That along with nutrient imbalances. Keep up the Great Work!
Could far red be potentially used to aid in veg for a scrog as it will fill the screen faster?
You should try and let us know ! Unfortunately nobody really tried in a scientific and significant way . No papers has been published for that. It seems like it could be a good idea. The problem I see with that is that it’s not because you have faster longer stems that the buds will actually get bigger. When cannabis is stretched during veg, it’s often a sign of not optimal growth , hence reducing the end quality of the product.
@@sigmastodon I think that if 10% far fed is enough to make your plants stretch that there is something missing in the blue range of the spectrum and I also believe that far red is more a metabolic trigger than photosynthetic. The sun depending on where you are and what the season is has far more than 10% far red and I don't think God got it wrong, Light spectrum is a recipe and if you can duplicate the sun you are doing it right.
Urban mith from '90 in my hood, far red is used to make roots stronger😂
love your vids but i'm getting sea sick!
I wonder how much of an attempt has been made by the autoflower growers.
Love your channel, sir.
Thank you for doing what you do.
I’m Running Nextlight Mega Pros but also adding the new Nextlight plus pros and I’m almost certain I will be getting your UVB Bulbs for supplemental at the end of flower for terp production.
Just can’t get away from the far red, and I am running autoflowers as well as photos.
🤔
Great video.
Cheers 💨
I'm wondering the same.
Thanks and much respect from Michigan USA!
Autoflowers are 'neutral day' plants. We extend their flowering day to 18-24 hrs of full spectrum light but we reduce PAR so their DLI's are similar. Does Far Red impact neutral day auto's the same way it impacts short day photos? I wonder if fast autos react to Far Red like long day plants and slow autos react to Far Red like short day photos?
I wish you would put out a video with more info on the migro veg vs migro 100
Emerson effect ( eg .deep red 660 nm-IR 730 combo) is similar to having blue.. the ir kind of cancels out the streach.
It also affects stem thickness..
And we know that nutrients are using the skin tissue to travel...
From what I gathered ....
Good job explaining it all Shane as usual
Thanks 👍
OK. And when do we get to see a LED that makes all the normal light that plants naturaly need?
🙏🤘
No light does, except for the Plasma light.
@@marc1speed 😂😂😂😂
@@FinehomesofNewHampshire I'm talking about significant amounts, and can be fine tuned.
How much UVB does a CDM have for example? Not a "significant" amount.
@@marc1speed 10k in small doses is what I use...floro in 10k as well. Its what every light company is missing.
In Woodland, Bluebells flowering is triggered by %far-red which increases as leaves develop on the trees above. As you explained, far red travels through leaves, thus the full canopy forest has high far red at ground level!
Theory: Establish a good canopy with your plants and keep your hands away from removing Lower leaves until flowering has been established, for a few weeks, at lower nighttime temperature = less stretch more yeild.
Aways interesting info, How about effect on autoflowers?
PATSFAN420 he is basically asking if it can improve a photo genetically modified plant for yield. Really dude is it not a question 😂😂😂😘
@@TheMusicHeals.kjhjhhg yes, it is. :)
Could y'all but have just answered his question instead of leaving 2 useless comments? Like what was the point? Congrats you guys are smart, I hope your plants are absolutely perfect by the way you respond🤔
By the logic from the video, auto's would be the optimal choice. 18/6 seed to harvest
GlockCee mine are why don’t you check them out bro.
I've seen your review on the electric sky 180 v2, I need your honest opinion on it. Is it worth me spending the cash on a ES300 and another es 180?
what country are you in? why not Meijui? ES are obvious high end beasts but you could get 2 300 equivalents for much less with the same far red diodes. Im using a name brand beside. Meiju and I'm ordering another Meijui
@@unceded yeah meijiu or kingbrite are reliable
To much cash for such little amount of light. Per Dr. Bugbee, Light spectrum is not that important. White light is white light.
@@TheMusicHeals.kjhjhhg good point, ES probably has great customer service. if any part of my boards stop working I'll have to replace that part myself. Only real way to know is to buy one of each. spend 200 and see. China makes good stuff
and thats why I asked what country he's in it could make a difference, US tariffs must be a drag.
Technically the evidence for long flowering plants does apply to cannabis bred with ruderalis.
great info as always, thank you! If I was going to add far red, as you say, it would be a small amount at the correct time to help start flowering, and then off. I wonder if a bit of far red with a bit of UV would help superboost at the end of flowering...
@Andrew Brent Yes, I've been looking into those. Unfortunately, can't get the agromax here in Canada, and any other suppliers that will bring it in are stupid expensive. Will likely be ordering some of the PowerVeg FS+UV.
If you add in additional UV with your IR would it help the photosynthetic ability of the normal PAR grow light. Given the other variables like nutrients and total environment were fair.
Pouring pure gold out here Shane, i hope you have more gold in storge :D, keep up the good work ma man!
I wish there was more information on the effect on terpenes with far red and uv
This video solved my biggest problem. In an earlier grow I did, I added a RapidLED deep red flowering puck to my 2x4 tent. I had (2) closet case 100’s and I had major stretch when in flower. I thought all this time it was my closet case 100’s but now I’m thinking it was the additional far red. I’ll try it without the next grow and see. Thank you for the lesson. 👽👍
Yeah, you might have run it too much, and it better for already bushy Indica's that could use some stretching. Just use it for flower initiation first (10min far red only after dark starts), and don't use it during the "day" time, or just a little bit
What about it's use for changing phytochrome states by introducing briefly at the end of the day?
Great video. Answers questions we've been thinking about for years
So this video begs the question what does this mean for the ES 180 V2 or the 300 watt version because I have the 180 V2 and I have to say I do get a bit of stretching but I still get solid flowers.But this video makes me wonder alot because as you said all indoor growers want more compact flowers with better density does the electric sky in your opinion fall into the light category that causes to much stretching?
No.
i add a tiny amount primarilly for emerson effect. 7 watts of my 248 watts drawn is far red, only 3% a bit more if i dim my main 3500k cobs but I have no issue with plants stretching since its well within that safe range. I also run it last 15 minutes to try and trigger phytochrome switch or trigger "sleep" in plants, but running 11 on 13 off i dont think there is huge benefit to it in shortening flower period. I hear it can allow indoor flowering under 13 or 14 hours light which is a benefit/goal many growers want out of it.. but ive yet to try/likely won't as I prefer 11/13 and am not in a huge rush to shave a few days off each cycle as a homegrower
How about growing microgreens? Would giving them more far red at the beginning be good to make them stretch faster? And then less far red at the end to make the greens more compact?
the key to this is knowing when to use a specific spectrum, stack the nodes tight in veg(lots of blue) and when you switch to flower turn on the reds for a bit(first 1-2 weeks)and stretch the girls and get some space between all them nodes and then hit her full spec when shes got buds growing~ been doing this with my 2000w Sayhon. they use IR and UV. a GREAT light
the light also creates a crazy amount of tricomes
I know this is an old comment but its exactly what I needed to read. Thank you.
had far red 740nm on my homemade led in a micro chamber for several years,
because i'm an epistemologist, not a scientist. seen plant after plant grow straight up to it. i'd also use IR if i built another one.
DE HPS with the Ceramic HPS bulbs. You need a loan to buy them but that far red is extremely effective in increasing bud density. Dont put glass over the bulbs as you wouldn't with CMH, you lose the UV & some real far reds
So I've also read that adding far red can cause shade avoidance syndrome. Do you know anything about that?
Bonjour en tant que visionneurs français même un an après ta vidéo je te remercie pour la théorie que tu m'as appris, j'ai fait l'acquisition de barre à LED 90 cm infrarouge et ultraviolets de Cosmorrow, 🔥👌
What do you think about harvesting under far red spectrum. I've read that after a dark period plants tend to have a sweeter taste etc. Since the far red put them to sleep would it be safe to assume that waking them up to an hour of far red and another short dark cycle would enhance this effect even further and more efficiently. 🤔
Really appricate the work you put in for the public benefit.🙂
I'm thinking of setting up some microgreens/leafy greens for all year round personal food supply.
As I'm trying to see what would be the best way to do this on a budget do you thing it may be worth using far red LEDs to bulk up the yeald and make it value for money?
Thanks for all your work!
It would be very interesting to see how and if red lasers can boost the efficiency. You can get very cheap 5V 20mA 660nm laser line modules. If you screw off the lens, it becomes a lot wider and more even although still rather narrow beam, but how would these compare to a 660nm top bin diode? I’ve started experimenting with the this wide red laser line placed 1m above the canopy. It turns on 20 min before lights out and turns off 10 min after lights out. I’m thinking it could be very useful for bloom initiator and/or bloom enhancer. Would love to see some measurements!
Great info thanks so much. With all your studies what grow lights do you say would be best for cannabis that has the far red spectrum??? Thanks again
Just when I plant in sun they stretch massively. Its what I do to get a little stretch to fin the area pot.
Great show I love the information one aspect that I did not hear about was the use of for red for quicker flower development Bruce Bugbee reported that they are still determining but there are signs that for red helps shorten the flowering time from a personal perspective I added far read into my previous garden and noticed a week earlier flower development then from past gardens as well as you did touch on the Emerson effect with these 660 and 730 NM spectrum but I firmly feel that far red does promote earlier flower developments and hope that Bruce Is able to prove is data upon that
I have a custom made quantum board, the guy that designed it said to run the far red a week before flower, and to run it right through flower.
It he off his nut or what?.
Hi Shane, have you ever done any experiments by introducing far red (~730nm), just before day end and again at start of day cycle? Some reports saying this simulates sunset and sunrise to the plant. Helps plant get to sleep a lot quicker (vastly simplifying the photochemical reactions of the plant) and wake up faster. Pro grow tip I’ve read too. If so, can you recommend a bulb? Thanks.
Those far-red percentages of light sources you have listed here are based on energy flux not photon flux, right? I've read in an article by Bugbee that natural and cool white LEDs have 20-25% red photon with R:Fr ratio of 5-6 respectively... so Fr flux of white LEDs is about 4% not 2% if we report the flux based on number of photons.
Is that a 315 cmh in the middle tent @Migrow
Yes.
315 cmh still the best
@@wowiealbarracinmcclaskey5392 agreed👍, best tasting bud is from cmh
Thought so, and I agree 315 is amazing for tarps and resin production
I have a question could autoflowering cannabis which likes 18 to 20 hours a day of light be benefited by the far red light spectrum?
Would dimming the fixture at certain life cycles reduce the percentage of far red?
Which meter are you using I need one that goes up to far red for testing my LED creations
I wonder if the increase in cell size is due to the increase of leaf surface temperature from the far red photons?
When looking for supplemental far red are we looking for 700-800? or would 850 also work? or is that just too far into IR?
I'd love to see an experiment solely using light outside the traditional par range. Like 350nm uv light in one chamber, far red 730nm and maybe another far red 850nm.
So if i`ll add far red into my auto flower grow , my auto's can be bigger at size? In my understanding red and far red can help me to grow my autoflower bigger than they could be?
You are awesome! Thanks you for what you do.
What app was he using to measure light spectrum above and below the canopy?
Every days a school day! Cheers Shane
Good summary. You could have added the fact that LEDs are pretty efficient for producing far-red photons. Coupled with the Emerson effect it can potentially increase Photosynthetic Photon Efficiency up to 3 to 4 micromoles per Joule. Also quick comment : if you could not moving as much while talking, or at least if the camera was stable, the viewer could have even a better experience. Great video otherwise !
Hello, what is required minimum and optimal intensity of FR light on 1cm2, taking that the height is 40cm? How many WATT per sq. cm? Any formula? Many thanks...
If I want to block out far red LEDs from the grow light what is the best way to do it? Insulation tape? Permanent marker? Nail polish ? What would you suggest
silver tape
The far-red effect is plant species dependant. NOT all plants will grow taller, some such as spinach/lettuce for example will grow broader, resulting in increased yields.
Also, far-red elongation effect on the internodal spacing might be linked to an earlier flower-onset in some cultivars as well.
What about an autoflowering cannabis plant? They have a long light cycle of 18/6
a grow shop selling a bulb that's not any good for 'short day plants) lol, I never thought I would see the day :)
hey! @MIGRO please could you review this light? FSGTEK 1500w Full Spectrum COB LED Grow Light for Indoor Plants, Veg and Flower, with UV & IR Bulbs Led Plant Light, Hanging Hook Kits (Black) thanks
What setup are used at 5:10 ?
thx
which light sensor your are using to measure the light spectrum?
ta
Another great video Shane. But I have a question what about the electric sky being used to grow cannabis? They do have high amounts of far red don't they.
Thank you for this explanation!
What app do you use for spectrum analysis
What do you know about FYI led?
Sound good lots of apogee instruments are they related to apogee instruments?
Any reviews?
They us a lot of red far red 3000k 5000k mix
What spectrum of light is emitted by biochar?
Hooray for the auto flower! the long day flowering cannabis plant!
Agreed!!
Dankenstein Corsentino how come you don’t wanna smoke Ruderallis, what’s the downside, I don’t know much about Autos Ive never grown one but Im getting kinda into them and interested so I just got a few really good Auto seeds, a few Bombs seeds and a couple Barney’s farm, are you saying Autos are no good, I don’t know so I’m just wondering why you don’t like Ruderallis, like what about them specifically don’t you like, I’m just trying to learn a little something here, thanks bro!!
@@sickboy8354 autos are a special plant and it's great. ironically the ruderalis is finding it's place in the photo period strains as a fast gene so folks already smoking it and no one can tell the difference
either way the research is exciting, cheers
Unceded oh ok, Yea I get what your saying!!
太棒太專業了!!! 非常感謝你的付出!~
Does a 730nm photon work with P680 or P700 in photosynthesis? I figure a 400nm photon can bounce around, lose energy, and be used by P680 or P700. But a 730nm photon must gain energy to equal the energy of a 700 or 680nm photon. Not sure how the P680 / P700 model comes into play when using photons with less energy than a 700nm photon.
Seems good for cucumbers then,I'm gunna try that this year to get the stalk going
you the man bronado, can we get a qb 288 lm 301h inch by inch/cm by cm, par ratings for the guys that cannot afford the hack? after being broken in, maybe an average loss of 4 - 10% effeciency. so many people looking for the best at a reasonable cost.
Hi, may i know the device you are using to measure the lights? How can i get them? Thanks
It's an apogee FAR-PAR sensor. They are upwards of $800.
I once read in a maximum yield article that far red for a few minutes before dark period could cause a plant to shut down in a fraction of the time as without it. Just uimg it a few minutes before dark period. Any thoughts?
#migro