F-16 scrambles on a Wild Goose Chase! Intense INTERCEPTION of a piper
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- Опубліковано 31 тра 2024
- #atc #aviation #f16 Get
This was recorded on 271.0 between BIGFOOT and Band 55/56 who were flying combat air patrol (CAP) during POTUS visit to LA in MARCH 2012. A target is headed towards the TFR center and communications get a little tense during the intercept. After the target turned away, BIGFOOT advised that the target had been within "8 minutes from our protective asset". This was just before POTUS departed LAX, which is captured in updates by BIGFOOT towards the end of the recording.
Here's a breakdown of the key events:
Initial Contact: Bigfoot picks up Band 56 and relays information about a pending track (Whiskey Uniform 6-1-5) entering their airspace. Band 55 joins the conversation and is tasked with intercepting the TOI.
Intercept Attempt: Band 5-5 has trouble finding the target and requests a bullseye (location) update from Bigfoot. Bigfoot provides the location and instructs Band 5-5 to commit to a specific heading. Band 5-5 loses contact with the TOI and Bigfoot helps them reacquire it.
Communication Breakdown: Band 56 enters the conversation and Bigfoot relays information about the TOI to them. There seems to be some confusion about who should intercept the TOI (Band 5-5 or Band 5-6).
Target Lost: Band 5-5 loses contact with the TOI again and Bigfoot instructs them to work with Air Traffic Control (ATC) to descend and regain visual contact.
Meanwhile TOI turns southbound 8 min short of TFR center…after few minutes MARINE 1 departs and Band 55 receives a new mission to monitor the Point of Interest (POI)
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Initial Contact: Bigfoot picks up Band 56 and relays information about a pending track (Whiskey Uniform 6-1-5) entering their airspace. Band 55 joins the conversation and is tasked with intercepting the TOI.
Intercept Attempt: Band 5-5 has trouble finding the target and requests a bullseye (location) update from Bigfoot. Bigfoot provides the location and instructs Band 5-5 to commit to a specific heading. Band 5-5 loses contact with the TOI and Bigfoot helps them reacquire it.
Communication Breakdown: Band 56 enters the conversation and Bigfoot relays information about the TOI to them. There seems to be some confusion about who should intercept the TOI (Band 5-5 or Band 5-6).
Target Lost: Band 5-5 loses contact with the TOI again and Bigfoot instructs them to work with Air Traffic Control (ATC) to descend and regain visual contact.
Meanwhile TOI turns southbound 8 min short of TFR center…after few minutes MARINE 1 departs and Band 55 receives a new mission to monitor the Point of Interest (POI)
Surprised they have any time to fly dang airplane with all this communication.....
It was edited for time.
Right
Getting pretty old after 5 minutes. Did not know it was that hard to acquire via visual means. Sounds like the Piper was IFR.
What a mess.
You could almost hear Band 55 ready to come cross the radio with, "Bigfoot, if you think you know what you're doing, come on out here. I'll let you fly this jet for a bit and you can show me how it's done."
😂😂
I kinda got the "I'm gonna park this thing up yee ass big foot'
I remember when we would refer to Bigfoot as Clubfoot. Their comms prove we were right.
The tone of the voice of Band55 pilot is "Oh my god you have to be kidding me. You guys at Bigfoot are such idiots. I am very disappointed in your lack of situational knowledge."
1:59 he says "Bogey Dope" not "bug it up"
He calls "Target faded" meaning he no longer has the TOI on his radar, so he calls "Bogey Dope" meaning he is requesting location information on the target, which is why they respond with a BRA.
Thanks for the correction!
Bigfoot needs to go back to the deep forest and never return.
That’s why CBP uses the UH-60 for low and slow in a TFR.
What a cluster.
Indeed
Get rid of Bigfoot and just have ATC point out the acft to the F16s. They’re already on freq anyways and it seems like there’s so much more workload with Bigfoot constantly playing comm ping pong with them
ATC is on VHF, Bigfoot is on UHF.
@@user-tq9bg7dp7o as if that reduces workload
They all have the capability of using VHF.
BIGFOOT has Controlling Authority (as the Air TFC Coordinating Authority). ATC is coordinating the airspace. In the event that further action needs to be taken, the Controlling Authority, which so happens to be military, can make the call without layers of comms and delay of relay.
NORAD (BIGFOOT) did exactly what was required. And BAND55 did exactly what he needed to do - descend through the cloud deck (2500 feet) , at a speed to intercept and attempt to match the Piper (140 kts @ 1800 feet), get a visual, and divert the Piper. BIGFOOT did exactly what he was supposed to do by sounding the alarm that the Piper was moving to intercept the inner ring of the TFR, and BAND55 was moving to intercept and divert the TOI prior to that inner ring. Everyone did a phenomenal job - all this showed is the seriousness of the surveillance and diligence and movement of assets to divert a potential threat. Everyone had a job to do, and they did it well.
ATC is coordinating LAX passenger service and GA aircraft
BIGFOOT controlling the TFR Airspace
The Air Refuel Tanker is station-keeping the TFR for continuous airborne ops
BAND55 and BAND56 are station-keeping to enforce the TFR.
Excellent job all around - BIGFOOT was vital to the mission. There was no conflict, and no sarcasm was implied or delivered - explaining the situation at the tip of the spear does not mean that anyone was either rattled or annoyed. This is just the way it works (and works well)
@@billyjack3361 Conversely lots of ATC have UHF capability too.
A student pilot flying a piper outmaneuvers two highly trained F-16 pilots in the weather.
That’s legend
Such a mess
Heh… no he didn’t 🤣
There are usually 2 ‘rings’ in a Presidential VIP TFR - an inner ‘core’ (10 or 12 mile radius) and an outer ‘doughnut’ (30 mile radius), both centered on the VIP location. They usually go from the surface to 17,999’ - above that is Class A airspace to 60,000 feet, and you must be on an IFR flight plan anyway.
The inner core is usually *forbidden* for ALL air traffic except law enforcement and air ambulance coordinated with ATC, Military Ops in direct support of the VIP visit, regularly scheduled Commercial Passenger service, and Cargo Ops that are on the U.S. Govt. Approved list.
The outer doughnut (10/12 miles out to 30 miles) is *restricted* . Aircraft must be from local fields. Aircraft may not ‘loiter’. Aircraft *may* transit the outer doughnut based on ATC workload. *ALL* aircraft must have a filed IFR or VFR flight plan, maintain an assigned Squawk code, and be in two-way comms with ATC.
Flight training, instrument practice approaches, Gliders, Parachute ops, Ultralights, Hang gliding, Balloon ops, Crop dusting, Animal Control flights, Banner Towing, Sightseeing flights, Maintenance Test Flights, Model Aircraft Ops, Model Rocketry, Unmanned Aircraft systems (UAS), And Utility And Pipeline Survey Ops are *Not Authorized*
From the comms, the offending pilot was in the outer doughnut and was just about to break the inner core. Thus, the ‘expedite, max subsonic’ Bigfoot order. The issue for Band55 wasn’t necessarily getting to the intercept (whether at max Subsonic, or .5 or .6 Mach), it was slowing down quick enough to do anything once there - the point of the outer doughnut is to intercept and divert the target before the target gets to the inner core. However, things change when the inner core is broken (or just about to be broken) - which is why you heard Bigfoot explain that the TOI was 8 minutes out from center (4-5 minutes was the demarcation line at 140 kts). The ‘expedite’ call was justified, as was the ‘unable’ response.
NORAD and the two pilots did an excellent and professional job communicating their mission, even when there was a potential conflict between the intent and action request. BAND55 did an EXCELLENT job calmly fulfilling the mission! Bravo, Sir!
This Piper student pilot just failed the most basic of flight requirements - the ‘flight planning’ stage. Had the student done a proper preflight briefing, they would have been notified of the active TFR in the route of flight. What is more concerning is that the *pilot is a student* and could have had a *CFI* in the plane, instructing. While it’s not good that the student pilot made this error, it is completely unacceptable for a CFI to have made this error.
Glad to hear the positive and appropriate outcome for this incident. I’m hoping that if a CFI was involved, the CFIs license is temporarily suspended until a corrective refresher course can be administered by the local FSDO
Thank you very much for your valuable insight
@@Flight_Follower - I know it’s long, but a lot of people, it seems, are unaware of the actuality of a TFR.
Here’s an example of a recent TFR for a Presidential VIP: tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_4_1228.html
Oh, and EXCELLENT clip of a Presidential TFR bust from the perspective of NORAD and Air detail up there to enforce it. Seriously appreciated.
Not impressed by the air force on this one over a Piper. And Bigfoot is annoying. At least it is good training for a real threat.
Were you flying your BarcaLounger while listening?
They were trying to ID a very slow moving airplane below a low cloud deck. They could have easily shot the target down if they wanted to. Getting a visual identification in those conditions is next to impossible. The fighter would be operating at extremely slow speeds without a lot of room for recovery between the cloud layer and the ground. Potentially very dangerous conditions and a good recipe for an accident. Identifying the Target and shooting it down are two completely different things. One of the jets got a visual on the target, but couldn't get a visual ID because it was going so slow compared to him.
Russians and Chinese listening to this and getting ideas
What’s “Bullseye” in this context?
A fixed point in space that both GCI (Intercept Control) and Interceptor Aircraft reference to conduct the mission.
@@johnevers3531 Thank you, sir!
Is bigfoot a ground station or an actual aircraft? Thanks!
Sounds like an AWAC plane, almost.
Awacs
Ground based radar controller, similar to AWACS.
Thanks all!
JUDY!
"Sub?" and debriefs OTA? worst military radio discipline I ever recall hearing -- stan/eval needs to tighten up on WCs (or is it ABMs now)
PITIFUL, if I was doing a Stan Eval on the Controller..........BIG retraining write up!
Were they speaking English because I didn’t understand a goddamn thing 😅
Same garbage that caused the green ramp slaughter in 94...
If I were American this would not comfort me 😏
Why?
There was no danger to anyone involved. Great situational awareness by everyone involved - NORAD for identifying and tracking the target quickly, the quick and non-lethal actions of the monitoring military aircraft in TFR area orbit, the rapid response and a desire to go visual (the BRA info is to provide situational awareness to the pilots of who exactly the TOI is - who have multiple targets on their radar and need to identify the specific TOI), and the understanding of the ‘time factor’ of the potential threat - 8 minutes at 140 kts is still well within the outer ring of the TFR; the aircraft still had 4 minutes to breach the inner, forbidden core. And then another 4 minutes to center. That’s a LOT of time for lethal decisions.
To be honest, this interaction shows zero weakness that would cause sleeplessness. Perhaps in China with no remotely close concept of NORAD, or Russia where explosive drones fly into the heart of Moscow - but not the U.S. (or Canada, either - the other partner of NORAD). Understanding the behind-the-scenes stuff that makes this even possible, you’d be amazed and think it was magic.
A piper with a 30 foot wingspan and 300lb max load is certainly not what vipers were designed to intercept, and unless north korea gets really brave is also not what any military around the world would use to fight us forces. Shit most drones are twice that size, and would be handled using ground based costal defenses long before any concern.
And that's a slow-moving plane WITH a transponder. I don't think people have any idea how little defense we actually have against airborne threats. It's not like the movies.
Please tell us.
@@NFlight - weLL, AcHTuAlY….
ROFL… exactly… 🤣😁 ‘how little defense’…
He did get one thing right - It’s not like the movies…
@@arctain1 Even better is when they talk about "teh NuClEaR Codez!!!//1"
They're just trying not to run the guy over, if they wanted to use a firing solution the awacs could've literally just datalinked lethal right into the target.
ATC wanted super sonic from an F16 who was near the piper in the first place?
Good on the pilot for saying that if he did that he would run the guy over.
That's a little something called Fact.
If our military cant locate a piper though that just tells us the state it's in and that's just sad.
First GCI, NOT ATC, wanted him to push it up max SUBSONIC which was unsafe. Next, you try to VID a target in the weather, then get back to me.
My point here is that going super sonic because of a piper doing 140 knots when you were already near it is a cause for disaster. Thus, good on the pilot for saying no.
About GCI, thanks for the correction there.
@@johnevers3531once again wasn't gci, was awacs, and once again radar officer was most likely just relaying a "cleared max sub" call from their co
@@Mike.The.Jeweler If, you're the WD, you make that call, not the WAO or SD. It is your intercept and you should have a good handle on what is affecting the intercept, and conducting the intercept accordingly. Safety is paramount and the Viper Driver was correct in refusing the intercept speed change. That kind of closure rate on a VID in the weather was NOT a good decision.
@@johnevers3531 I missed the push it up call, misheard as clear max sub, I agree its entirely on the pilot on intercept speed, but yet again, i promise it was not the awacs radar officer who was pushing that call, I promise it was their co saying "FUCKING TELL HIM HURRY IT UP", not the ro just making the decision to tell them to push it up, hence why at the end conversation he says "that's why WE wanted you to push it up"
"Attempt contact TOI (Target of Interest) on Guard.". Civilian aircraft don't monitor "Guard". Also, to the Military, Guard is 243.0 MHz, a UHF frequency. Civilian aircraft don't have UHF capability. Also, civilian don't monitor the VHF Emergency frequency, 121.5 MHz unless THEY are the one having an emergency. The controllers are running the intercept as though they are dealing with military aircraft. Go Max Sub (Subsonic - approx. 600 Knots) to intercept a general aviation aircraft doing 140 Knots???. That would give him a 460 Knot closure rate, way too fast to read a tail number.
I’m a SEL in DC. Flying in the ADIZ requires us to have guard up on radio 2. Also, ATC can and do use UHF.
@@SeligTiles I am an ATP. Please tell us how they would know you are not on guard?
@@SeligTiles What if you don't have a Radio 2? I have flown a lot of Cessna's that had only one radio.
@@user-tq9bg7dp7o then you don’t get to fly in the adiz
@@NFlight They wouldn't, as a matter of course...unless something happens and they attempt to contact you on Guard and you don't respond. Then the amount of trouble you're in ratchets up. The requirement is there for a reason, and aviation being what it is, probably written in blood at some point in the past. *I* shouldn't have to tell you that. Do you routinely blow through red lights and stopsigns when you're driving and there's no traffic around, no witnesses? Just because you CAN? If that's your approach to the rules I don't EVER want to be in an airplane you're piloting!
So much wasted radio chatter
Haha yeah.. good to hear as an audience though 🙃
I don't know why they were concerned, everyone in California supports the dementia guy.
It was 2012 genius.
no we dont like trump
@@davidmoser3535 Your boy Barry and his husband Michael were in WH at the time.
Unlikely for Joe to ever be in this position since his handlers rarely let him travel further than his regular 3-day weekend in Delaware.
@@hotsoup1001 That and his daily "Hollywood Cocktail".
Seems like much ado over nothing. I wonder how many pounds of JP-8 was wasted? Two F16s and an orbiting tanker.
Station-keeping a Presidential TFR isn’t wasted fuel.
You think they just keep these planes parked otherwise? It's not the JP-8 that pisses me off when I pay my taxes! That's nothing compared to the real bs the government gives OUR money to!
Boy just wait until you hear how much is wasted in training, much less a presidential tfr
Boring
Sorry you didn’t like our content
This must be a DEI exercise....they keep talking about their Bra. Good catch.
Humor fail.
Why are there so many bullsh*t comments about dei in flight channels? Get over it and grow up
@@aaron9783 Because it is the reality. YOU get over it.
@@aaron9783 Why are there so many angry hall monitors that want to control everything? Stop muttering and grow up ya old coot.
@@NFlight Party pooper. Don’t be a stiff.
Is this in Ukraine? 😂