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Stories about the Dangers of Revivalism, Pietism, and Mysticism
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- Опубліковано 12 вер 2018
- Pastor Wolfmueller visits Epiphany Lutheran Church in Castlerock, CO to talk about "Has American Christianity Failed?" and tell stories about the dangers of Revivalism, Pietism, and Mysticism. Enjoy!
The bookstore (where almost everything is free): www.wolfmueller...
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All the theological awesomeness ends up on the blog: www.wolfmueller.co
Thank you for sharing.. becoming a Lutheran after 25 years pentacostal.. was looking for Truth in my heart and the Lord heard my prayer. Led us to a Conservative Lutheran.. so thankful!
What happened? No
More pentecostal?
I also came out of pentecostal/evangelicalism, and God, really in the matter of days, showed me by grace the LCMS church and the Holy Spirit taught to trust in Christ 100%. Glad to hear that God did a similar work in your life!
Confessional Lutheran is the practice for the first 700 years or so - we read from the Greek
Will never leave Pentecostalism. God is using Pentecostalism in an unprecedented way in Indonesia and it is having a devastating impact on Islam with millions coming to Jesus. The sacramental style churches, like Lutheran, hardly any impact at all. That tells you something. In fact, Africa and other developing countries are being busted open by the Holy Spirit through Pentecostal churches more than any other church by far. Fortunately, our Pentecostal church is very deeply rooted in theology. Reading all the church fathers and the reformers. Love Luther.
@@michaelciccone2194 That's a great result !
My friend and I (regrettably) looked at a number of Pentecostal churches 35 years ago . But in process of time, we passed through that unstable phase in our faith. We later spent some time in fundamentalist style churches, including (ana)Baptist groups like the Baptists and others, but also conservative Presbyterian.
But the more we opened our hearts to Christ and His Word, and the more we studied Scripture, the easier it became. We saw the evident departure of these man made religions and sects from Christ, and I had nothing more to do with them.
Eventually, and against our struggling against the faith (in ignorance), we both came to see the truth of the Lutheran reformation. We saw that Luther really did do something wonderful by the absolute insistence of Sola Scriptura.
We also came to see the fundamental truth of the proper distinction between Law and Gospel.
The whole Pentecostal religion is one great merry go round of enthusiast religion. It's a counterfeit religion and not the truth. It robs the dinner of the true comfort that is found in Christ and the Gospel. And it teaches an altogether different Spirit in so many respects.
This is not to say that there are not real Christians caught up in such pseudo Christian sects . But loyalty to Christ and His Word will lead any Christian through sectarianism into the glorious Truth of God's Word.
"I wasn't raised Lutheran, I grew up in the ELCA" Savage.
Well, it's not wrong.
🤣
True. Sadly
As a Baptist turned Lutheran through marriage and admiration for Luther from childhood, I love this video.
Dude, you’re breaking my heart talking about your experience struggling assurance of salvation as a Baptist. I was in the same boat as you for ten years. I’m glad you made it out.
Unbelievable. You have summed up every Evangelical Non-Denominational church I have been to.. The Gospel is for nonbelievers.... and the Law is for believers. There is no Grace, only works..Tell an Evangelical you are Lutheran and they look at you sideways and say, "so you are not a Christian?" Sorry I was saved by grace, not works.. Like you I was in a pinball machine bouncing from one church to another. I came to Lutheranism after many years of searching. Thanks to God.
This is inaccurate. Grace is taught in most evangelical churches in America. However it appears that you have fallen into a hyper-grace error.
@@felixguerrero6062 Been to a lot of churches. Grace is seldom, if ever, brought up.The law is prominent in most, and/or hyper spiritualism. In an age of narcissism and entertainment, the Evangelical church fits the bill. Most people finally realize it's just a club and stop going.
The problem from my view is the message of most Fundamental Evangelicals:
„God wants you to come as you are, but you can‘t stay as you are.“
So once you are „in“, you main target is to avoid sins because you can lose your salvation by „falling back in sinful behaviour“…
(from my perspective as a German…it seems to me that most Fundamentals here want to be a 1:1 copy of their brothers in the USA)
Leaving Assembly of God behind and coming into Lutheranism was the best thing to happen to me.
22:42 as a southern baptists i cant tell you how much i relate to your story
Going back to Missouri synod. Thanks pastor
Atta girl; great choice!
I was raised Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Interesting perspectives here. Thanks for this.
I have learned profound gospel truths this video teaching. Thank you pastor wolf mueller and thank you Jesus.
Grew up church of the Nazarene. But attended lcms elementary school. Eventually my whole family was brought out of pride and despair Christianity. I’ll never go back
This was a great presentation. God's continued blessing.
Wow, that spoke exactly into my experience and situation and gives me food for thought having felt very lost and a sense of relief when I stopped going to church and stopped listening to teaching which theologicaly I know is wrong, I commented on one of your teaching videos this morning and think God put that passage in my mind as a way in to drew me to this one. I don't know where I go next yet but will definitely be thinking about your points as I seek God's guidance. I live in the UK and there are very few Lutheran churches here and I don't know what an equivalent would be but yes I could relate to the whole church hopping thing.
It’s interesting how my view has changed simply because I read the word!
I don’t agree that the title would be off-putting for non- believers. In fact, I was confused why our pastor had it and was recommending it to us... my husband coming from a baptist background. But then, my husband turned me on to your channel, Pastor, and I understood it better. We are so thankful for how you’ve helped lay out the differences. We are thankful for the Lutheran Church, also!
Just perfect! Exactly what I needed to hear. May God be praised!
The way I experienced salvation was as follows. My father was reading from the book of Hebrews the heroes of the faith. Suddenly the Holy Spirit convicted me and I felt so lost without Christ. I realized that I was an unworthy sinner and that I needed Christ. I cried for a while and I received my salvation.
Maranatha
God be praised.
Thank you pastor Wolfmueller- your videos have been so incredibly helpful .
@44:55 I had to laugh out loud.. I was baptized 3 times too.. I like to say I’m triple washed, just like a fresh pack of lettuce 😆
Chapters 1 & 2 of "Surprised by the Gospel" ;-) is golden.
Link to the book please. I can't find it.
Your theology really does shape your prayer life quite a bit
When you hear the testimonies of people who have had their lives changed during revivals, who have given up drugs and alcohol, who have turned towards Christ in faith, who dedicated themselves to be missionaries and soul winners, it's hard to be against it.
In my opinion there's a vast difference in true revival and faux "for show" revival that's planned within "certain" belief systems. A true revival is where people repent and have a true turn from sin and acceptance of The Gospel. AND the Bible as authoritative truth. See the Gospel of John chapter 16. Jesus tells his disciples that he is sending a helper, whom is The Holy Spirit, Jesus tells of what his role is and what he will do. I see none of that taking place in many churches, including the NAR or Word of Faith. The Bible is God breathed by The Holy Spirit and anyone who denies the Word of God denies the very one they claim to follow or be in the influence of. The Holy Spirit points to Christ all throught its' 66 books. Anyone who claims to be under the influence of The Holy Spirit and does not point to Christ is a false teacher. A wolf in sheep's clothing!
I know many people who were “liberated” from drugs and alcohol at revivalistic services who later rejected God and aren’t even Christians today.
@@purplestars5410 BAR and Word of Faith are definitely false teachers.
Wouldn't be better if they talked about Jesus?
I've been immersed three times, COC, SB, & FUNDAMENTAL Baptist, the WELS (WISCONSIN LUTHERAN) won't let me be rebaptized!
“One baptism for the forgiveness of sins”
Looks like you’ve got that covered, so no need for another one.
Whenever we are asked WHEN did you become a Christian or WHEN were we saved, we say: "We were saved in the Year 30, give or take." As you probably know, that's not original to us, but we learned it from a friend who is in Jews for Jesus.
I did watch the whole thing, actually took notes to, great job, subscribed!
"Trick Lutheran Bible" lol love it
Luther is to have counseled about that "warm feeling in your heart that it might be heart burn!" Where as when the heart of faith hears the word of the gospel and doesn't become enlivened then faith is not present! Be assured when you spoke of God's Gospel my heart became enlivened and excited once again!! Peace be with you and bless your message tomorrow!! Amen!
Much wisdom. Thank you.
Pride and Despair, so CRAZY TRUE….lived it!!!😢
Thank you Pastor Wolfmueller for sharing your experiences. :) Your only TTR listener from Moose Jaw!
Thoroughly enjoyed every moment of this!
These same realizations about American (baptist) revivalism pietism and mysticism came to me as soon as my kids started professing faith and I had to deal with how to talk to them about their profession.
Thank you Pastor. ...wonderful!
Thank you for Law & Gospel!
This explanation of repentance is fantastic.
This sounds like my life. I finally walked away from my non denomination church. I felt like I could never be good enough.
That was brilliant! Really enjoyed that. Greetings from a very sunny (still) Western Australia
Hope I was there with my family.
I think the title of your book is a good one. It drew ME in!
Thank you Pastor! Truth!
I’m listening. Powerful testimony of your “tower experience”
I want at least 2 thumbs up for this!!
Brilliant! Thank you.
...became Lutheran as an adult.
CHRIST NEVER FAILS EVER ❤
The gospel is for everyone outside the church but everyone inside the church it’s the law - wow! Powerful thought
Thank you for sharing this
I love Lutherans. This guys special.
This was an amazing teaching. Thank you
Tour de force there with your fiery words on repentance. Thank you.
Awesome!!!
The qna really shows how calvinism creeps into the Churches and creates doubt
The speaker himself mentions monergism, that's where his audience gets their calvinism from.
@@MrWeebablePastor Wolfmueller is NOT a Calvinist. He is a confessional Lutheran, and so is the audience. Monergism is NOT equal to Calvinism. Lutherans aren't calvinists. Two different things. Calvinists deny Sacraments, Don't like crosses and vestments in Church etc. etc.
@@Dilley_G45 how do calvinists deny the sacraments? As a presbyterian, we are taught the purpose of them. We have communion weekly (or monthly) and we do have Baptism.
@@michellesheppard9253 First the reformed Church and Presbyterian Church here rarely have Communion. And they do not see it as a sacrament. Memorial view of communion and of Baptism. Denying Baptismal regeneration and efficacy. Which they have to, as double predestination makes Baptism an empty gesture. Cause it's already predestined wonks saved and who not (in their view). Thereby neither sacrament can impart Grace. We are saved by Grace. So calvinists can't experience Grace by anything except if predestined. We as well as Orthodox and Catholics view Baptism and Eucharist AS SACRAMENTS. Because the Bible says it imparts Grace, as well as Baptismal Regeneration. Reformed theology denies the Sacrament and demotes Baptism and Eucharist to man's work as a sign
Awesome sauce.
That was a superb explanation, but arguably the best part was the distinction between the law & everlasting gospel. PS-- Calvary Chapel does *not* teach the entire Bible at all; they might be more moderate but don't let them dupe you, they are rabidly charismatic. As a former Charismatic of 21 years, I find nothing impressive about a bunch of moderate Arminians.
Followed Galvary church for a number years... You are right. They skip over a lot of the Bible.
I can’t wait to get his book.
Very good video!
I love the title and think it is perfect for the book.
Thank you for Law&Gospel
Great Sword Fight! Everyone knew how to wield the word of God! Awesome!
People conflate Christianity with Perfectionism,
with Pristine Piety,with Moralistic Purism 😶😇
The special verse you like, you cited as John 3:20 ( meaning the Gospel book). You simply forgot to say it is 1 John 3:20 "If our hearts condemn us, God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything".
At about 1:02:00, this sounds a lot like Calvinism. Our will has nothing to do with whether or not we are saved. Rather God chooses.
If you are basing your belief on a feeling, your belief is rooted in the matural body. The Bible instructs us that the spiritual is of God and the natural self is sin.
Drug addiction and sexual immorality are both tied to trying to appease the natural body. What makes me feel good at the moment.
Thank you.
Regarding mysticism, how does John of the Cross’ “Dark Night of the Soul” in the RC tradition correspond to Lutheran prayer and passive faith? Does the passivity of the dark compare to passive faith in suffering in Lutheran teaching? Are these one and the same? Roamin’ Catholic
I am a Reformed Baptist. I did choose Christ but only because Christ chose me first. As was said the new birth is monergistic resulting in faith and justification but sanctification is synergistic and involves the believer though of course God is primary. The word does the work so Philip Melanchthon was wrong about the will while Luther was right about the will. Hence his disputation with Erasmus on the bondage of the will.
I'm loving the message, but my Baptist mind is having a hard time understanding where does our repentance and believing in Jesus come into it, if our wills has nothing to do with it.
Faith is a gift (Eph 2:8-9) and we see that just as God hardened Pharaoh’s heart, the man whose son Jesus saved from a demon said “Lord I believe, but help my unbelief!”
(Mark 9:23)
So God can actually grant us stronger faith. We can pray for it!
Our will comes into play as we turn from sin and strive to obey God because we love Christ. As He says, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.”
(John 14:15)
And sometimes we’ll still need God to strengthen our will too!
God bless brother. Really ❤️
How can I get in contact with you, i’m going through what you talked about at the beginning?
I cant believe you drank the Communion wine. How did the Pastor react to that??
I wondered what was wrong with ELCA.
"if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." You know where to find that...
If Lutherans believe in Sola Fide in Christ and His merits alone how can you also say that water baptism is necessary for salvation??? I was baptized in an Assembly of God church when I was 19! I've strayed from the Lord many times since, but each time God has brought me back out of sexual or other sin and I've matured theologically? Where do I stand on baptism! Should I be baptized again? I thought I was safe in Christ
Romans 7 has some answers for you. Yes, sexual immorality is not good, but there is a process of sanctification going on. The righteous falls and stands up again, which does not mean we can do whatever we want, but which keeps the promise of god‘s mercy and forgiveness that we need every single day.
I was also baptized in a charismatic church (which was good), but we were never truly taught and that‘s what the speaker her mentions. There was this constant going back and forth in pride and despair, because of false theology.
Water baptism is not initially necessary for salvation, it is a result of your salvation, a sign of obedience. We are saved alone by grace and faith, the works and deeds are a result of salvation + faith, not works + faith = salvation. It takes a while to untangle and untrained those false teachings, but God gives us mercy and understanding.
@@frizzyrascal1493 Thank you for your help and encouragement. God bless you and yours in Christ Jesus! Amen 🙏
No one mentions here that if you're going to be Lutheran, you might as well go all way and be Roman Catholic. It doesnt make any sense to go half way and deny church authority of Rome since Peter was given the keys as they say.
Even if evil men share the Word with evil intent, the Word has affect! It goes out and does not return empty!
I think the re baptizing really comes from the fact that they believe in free will. Instead of the bondage of the will and that it took a merciful, gracious, and miraculous act from God to turn us away from our sins, to regenerate our hearts, and to ultimately save us. And if you believe in free will you don't believe in that and you start also believing that baptism is a work of faith instead of a work from God to bury our dead spirit in Christ and raise us to new life.
Hi Pastor Bryan,
You mentioned verse 1 John 3:20. Could you further explain how verse 20 and 21 go together in context? There are those that would say verse 21 means if have condemnation or doubts in heart than we are lost and without confidence.
20For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. 21Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
Wonderful Pastor! I have one question, on Matthew 4:17, Jesus began to preach, " Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near". If Repentance is work of God then what is our role or responsibility on Repentance.
This is Roger from Concordia Theological Seminary, Nagercoil, India.
Strange that, in my ELCIC days, we had a non-Lutheran youth-ministry leader, who also owned the company who was pushing our youth to do Mexico missions every year, while delivering no Bible-study and offering movie-nights and preschool-level programmes.
@ 1:10:44 you reference the question "Can you be saved apart from hearing the preaching of the name of Jesus?" In relation to that question and the questions the gentleman asked, I wondered if you had any thoughts about the "so called" Muslim having dreams of Jesus, and becoming a Christian. That seems to be a commonly referred to issue in American Christianity today.
Good question, I think. The stories among those type that I have heard about recall the dream sending the Muslim to a place where they can hear the gospel.
Jesus himself came to me and as I was caught up in a Spiritual dimension which was more vivid than any dream with lasting impacts as I was shocked by the liquid love emanating from him. I have heard countless testimonies of people who encountered the Lord himself. Maybe because no one was around that would share it (?) I was not a muslim but grew up methodist and in a dangerous situation in Aspen Co. when the clarity came. He saved me.
Jesus is the Word according to John.
@Chase Moore The proof is in the pudding. His goodness led me to repentance and I have had a wonderful life in HIM. In that encounter with Him, He actually taught me about fruit and affirmed it in the Bible the next day. You know them by their fruits. He taught me the first discernment principle right there. My Lord and King! No worries, it was HIm.
@Chase Moore Jesus never said that. Chapter and verse? If one comes preaching another gospel? This was not another gospel.
How did you overcome all the teachings you absorbed in your younger years?
God opens our eyes... No matter how clouded American Christianity makes them.
As someone who grew up Southern Baptist, I have zero idea when you got some of your ideas about evangelical theology from. No Baptist pastor or lay person I have ever know or have heard of would have just baptized somebody in a bathroom. Indeed it goes against the very theology that Baptists preach, that baptism is a PUBLIC display of faith. Also, while yes the Baptist do view the Supper as symbolic, that was strangely combative and not something I saw in my time with the SBC.
Yeah. It's all anecdotal. No real evidence.
You may have been raised in an ordinary baptist church, others didn‘t. Where I‘m from, baptists, Pentecostals and charismatics are deeply mixed up and almost named interchangeably.
What he said hit home on so many levels, be glad you weren‘t subjected to these weird and mostly false teachings.
Jesus says that he is bread in John 6, “I am the bread that came down from heaven (John 6:41)” but I doubt you think Jesus is bread ‘because the Bible says it.’ They were eating a Passover meal when Jesus gave the new covenant. A meal where everything had its own significance ties to the exodus, in that context he did not mean that the bread was literally his flesh.
I’m afraid I gave up after 20 minutes - I was expecting a talk about American Christianity and all I heard was you talking about yourself - or perhaps this is the problem with American Christianity? Should I listen to more?
He is giving his example (which is VERY VERY VERY common) so as to help people understand what he is saying. The problem of American Christianity is in Revivalism, Pietism, and Mysticism which he does cover. He tells you of his experience in this to help you understand what it means, as he points later to the explanation of the pendulum of pride and despair.
Stick with it. Hear it for what it is, and not for what you want it to be friend.
@@davidturner1079 thanks - I should have listened further. I have heard too many sermons when the main topic of the pastor is themselves and not the Scriptures. His title also put me off. The revivals in Wales had much good fruit as did the Methodist revival at times when the Church was pretty dead - perhaps distinguish revival from revivalism? The Pietism of Spener is good - without true Pietism Lutheranism is basically scholasticism. Without true mysticism Lutheranism and Christianity become mere philosophy. There are obviously bad examples of revivalism, pietism and mysticism and we then arrive at American and contemporary Christianity. We must not throw the baby out with the bath water. I bought his book!
How do you know you are saved?
“The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:”
Romans 8:16 KJV
I'm inspired to evangelize baptists and hypercharismatics lol
Where can we get your book? P.s. what seminary did u go to. I'm a first year @ CTSFW
Here's all the info: wolfmueller.co/product/american-christianity-failed/
They should have it at the seminary book store! If not, you shaould ask them to order it. I also went to CTSFW, class of 2005.
In his prayer he said "that can snatch our hearts away from Jesus". I thought the bible says NOTHING can snatch us.
Brooke Medaris in Pastor Wolfmullers closing prayer he ask that we be kept in the faith. We can tell God that we don’t want or need his gift of salvation. Sometimes the riches of the world entices us to think we don’t need God. He will never leave us or forsake us but we can leave him. Or the devil entices with sin. Not just sin but with the celebration of our sin. The devil is very good at saying “Did God really say.” Even though He doesn’t give up on us, He will never forsake us.
@@debbiefogarty51
If nothing can snatch us out of his hands, for those that are truly saved, that would include the devil. In fact, if ANYTHING could snatch us, it would be Satan. Nothing can snatch us out of his hand. I do understand that there are many many warnings that seem to indicate that a true believer can be lost again, but if you read those passages in context not only within the same chapter, but the whole book as one and even with whole picture of the bible, it is clear that the warnings are there for 2 reasons. First, for us to examine our faith to be sure it is real. Second, to examine others to be sure that they are real. Scripture is abundantly clear that those who are called, are also justified and those who are justified are ALSO glorified. Romans 8:29. This is unbroken. All that the father gives to the son, he will lose none. Not one. A person who has their faith in Jesus Christ is sealed with the holy spirit as a promise.
@@debbiefogarty51
Also, I was referring to the gentleman who prayed in the beginning. He referred to being snatched, which cannot happen. He will finish what he began in us. That is a promise.
Brooke W
By default (believing) we belong to Jesus. ❤️✝️🕊🙏📖
“My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father-Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.”
1 John 2:1-2 NIV
But sadly, we can fall away...
(Once SAVED/Aways saved is a lie)!
“We must pay the most careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away.”
Hebrews 2:1 NIV
“Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.”
Luke 8:12 NIV
“Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.”
Romans 10:17 NIV
Stay planted in the WORD...
“The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.”
2 Corinthians 4:4 NIV
"But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."
-John 20:31
“Here is a trustworthy saying:
~If we died with him, we will also live with him;
~if we endure, we will also reign with him.
~If we disown him, he will also disown us;
~if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself.”
2 Timothy 2:11-13 NIV
The Prodigal "Came to himself", not his senses- a major distortion of modern versions.God made who he was
I love this but i have a question. As we compare the dangers you have stated, what are we as LCMS members. Do we have a class or department you put us in? Blessings!
love the book by the way!
Bryan, what's a 'winkle' mate?
Pastors meetings. We get together once a month for Bible Study
According to Melanchthon’s Loci (in all five editions), Melanchthon does not affirm free will in a man in spiritual things before to conversion, but only in regenerate man as he is lead by the Holy Spirit through the Word. Passive righteousness in a man, the active righteousness of God. God to man, not man to God. Melanchthon was definitely not a synergist. Melanchthon always maintained that unregenerate have no free will and therefore cannot repent or turn to God.
Is this available anywhere in audio format, by chance?
My brother-in-law, wants to be rebaptized because he didn't "feel" anything the first time. He was an Adult the first time.
@John SluderAny Christian can baptize. But you're right, no need to "re-baptize".
@John SluderThe power of baptism rests in Jesus’ promise (John 3:5; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 3:21), not in the person doing the baptizing. For that reason, the Lutheran church recognizes the validity of baptisms performed by laypeople. This often happens (and properly so) when there is an emergency, i.e., a situation where the candidate’s survival is in doubt. Most of the time a pastor will do it to maintain "good order" in the church, after all it is he who does have a special responsibility to care for the flock given to him by God. If you are ever in the Daytona Beach area, stop by Our Savior's Lutheran Church and ask for Ray Brown, and we can talk about it some more. Your's in Christ Jesus...
@John Sluder It's not actually a new trend. Philip (one of the first deacons set apart by the Apostles in Acts 6 to care for the poor so the Apostles could continue their ministry) baptized the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8. Baptismal Sponsors? Adiaphora. What you are talking about are traditions, nice ones at that...but traditions nonetheless. Unless you could point out the existence of baptismal sponsors in the Bible. If old fashioned = conservative, you're probably going to find, of the large Lutheran synods, the Wisconsin is the most conservative. This is where I went to the seminary and this is whom I am a minister for … peace, Ray Brown.
@John SluderI did not say I was a Lutheran pastor. I am a WELS lay minister (Congregational Assistant). I graduated from the Pastoral Studies Institute of the Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary after a 4-year program in the Class of 2010. I also attended Martin Lutheran College in New Ulm, Minnesota. I have studied the Book of Concord and, a scribbled up copy of it is about three feet from me. In fact, I quoted the text of the official WELS Q&A to the question, Who can baptize? Go back in this thread to see my answer and compare it with this: wels.net/faq/who-can-baptize/. Who is your pastor? I'd love to talk to him. John Sluder, where do you live and what is your background? I've given you mine. Nothing to hide. Just the truth. Peace, Ray.
@John SluderBTW, with regards to your concern about the Bible, (1) you did not answer about where does it say in the Bible that only pastors can baptize? (2) you did not answer why it is recorded in the Bible that a Deacon ( a position similar to what I hold) named Philip (Acts 8) could baptize? and (3) where does the Bible say you must have baptismal sponsors? As I said, earlier in this thread, don't mix traditions with clear Biblical teaching.
I agree with a lot you say, but not everything. Americanism has infected Christianity in America. Feelings are a rip off...
Yeah, that's exactly what he said too.
Anyone who thinks that Christian mysticism is a danger is crazy.
I like ‘the trick Lutheran Bible’ 🤣🤣
Is there a single case of a baby being baptized in the entire Bible? What is implicit faith how does that relate to baptism and where is that in the Bible? Church of Christ people believe in baptismal regeneration as well but only after confession of faith. Did Luthier believe in baptizing baby’s because of the Bible or because of his Roman catholic tradition?
The answer to your first question is we don't know. Several whole households are baptized in the Bible. Were there infants in any of those households? Were those infants included, or only adults? We don't know.
Lutherans believe in origional sin and Baptismal regeneration. If babies are innocent, when do we become responsible for our sins? Since Baptism is for the forgiveness of sins and we sin from birth, infants need to be baptized.
@@markhorton3994 i’m really not sure, I’m trying to figure all this out myself. Is it the act of baptism that is salvific in and of itself? Is there such a thing as implicit faith? Is it really the faith of the parents that is the means of salvation in the case of infants that are baptized? What is really going on in baptism? Are baptism and communion a means of justifying grace or sanctifying grace? I’m trying to figure out how and why they are sacramental. I have a high view of baptism and communion, and I do believe that both communion and baptism are sacramental and not merely memorial ordinances but seek to derive my theology from the Scriptures. What is the biblical perspective because I also hold to Sola Scriptura?
@kevin carney I am just a layman who comments too much. Most of the time I am passing on what others gave taught me. Verified by my own reading of the Bible. In practice, Sola Scriptura means "anything contrary to Scripture must be discarded," and I stand by that as much as Luther did. (Although he faced the probability of death for doing so, and I only hope I would).
The best source for the answers you seek is Pastor Wiedmuller's videos on the subject. As always, read the Bible citations included for yourself in context. Another source of sound Lutheran theology is Dr. Pastor Jordan Cooper, "Saint & Sinner" although many of his videos are on the level of advanced Seminary lectures.
To the point, the ACT of Baptism does not save in the manner of a magic ritual. Baptism, Communion, and formal confession and absolution are "means of grace." Sacraments are Biblically ordered acts with physical and spiritual elements by which God delivers His Grace. Absolution is not often called a Sacrament because it lacks a physical element, but it delivers forgiveness of sins. Whatever one calls it just pouring water on someone or dunking them in it is not Baptism. Baptism is " water and the word" in infant Baptism, the faith of the parents is not necessary. They could be Athiests or Satanists, although that would put the Christian education of the child in jeopardy. The faith of the celebrant ( usually a pastor but any believer) makes Baptism a Sacrament.
@@markhorton3994 You may technically be a layman, but you seem quite knowledgeable in many ways. I have an ordination and am an elder in a reformed Baptist Church, but I have never been to seminary and have learned most everything on my own through personal study and reading and bible study so I guess technically I’m also a layman. Either way, I appreciate the dialogue and any perspective you may add to my quest for knowledge/enlightenment/revelation. I also appreciate your high view of Scripture, which is of course my own perspective. I’ve never really considered absolution as a sacrament to be honest. I know the Bible says at James 5:16 “Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another that you may be healed…”, but I’d always seen that more as a means of accountability and humility than a sacrament. Of course, in one sense, all of life is sacramental for the believer if you know what I mean. All of life is a means of grace according to Romans 8:26, though I would also say that the sacraments are a specific means of Grace. Of course, God in his sovereignty can act through means, without means, or even contrary to means. Perhaps the only answer to my queries is given below by Saint Augustine as quoted by John Calvin.
"We have come into the way of faith," says Augustine: "let us constantly adhere to it. It leads to the chambers of the king, in which are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. For our Lord Jesus Christ did not speak invidiously to his great and most select disciples when he said, I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now,' (John 16:12). We must walk, advance, increase, that our hearts may be able to comprehend those things which they cannot now comprehend. But if the last day shall find us making progress, we shall there learn what here we could not," (August. Hom. in Joann).
Grace and peace to you my friend.
@kevin carney Your idea of ordained clergy is very different from mine. I am confessional Lutheran. Lutheran clergy are not ordained without graduating from seminary. They know enough Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek to at least discussions of subtle meanings of Biblical word choice. They are thoroughly trained in all aspects of theology, church history, how to write and deliver a sermon ( by doing it), details of Scripture, the writings of early Christians (church fathers) and, almost, everything else needed to be a pastor. Jesus personally trained the first church leaders. Part of Paul's training of Timothy and Titus is preserved in Scripture. Luther, Zwingli, Calvin and others were all trained RCC clergy. Luther, and I think the others, was a teaching Doctor of Divinity. They were each thrown out for not finding Papal authority in the Bible. Anyone can, and everyone should spread the good news, Gospel, and we should all help each other grow in understanding, but the gap in knowledge between me and a qualified pastor ( shephard) is imense.
Lutherans do normally count 2 Sacraments occasionally 2 1/2. Absolution is definitely a means of Grace because sins are forgiven. It fails the test as Sacrament because it lacks a physical element. You are, of course, correct that we should confess to and forgive each other. Formal confession and absolution is based on Jesus's telling first Peter and then all the disciples that whatever they forgive on Earth is forgiven in Heaven and whatever they do not forgive on Earth is not forgiven in Heaven. We like the RCC call this the Office of the Keys, but they go far beyond Scripture with it. Your church, in ordaining you, has given you this responsibility, use it faithfully. Christ has forgiven us all our sins. The only time I have ever seen this used negatively, and not by a Lutheran, was when someone was not repentant and openly rebellious to pastoral authority. He was also excommunicated.
As I said the first time you should seek qualified theologians' views and then judge them by Scripture. I could be wrong.
God bless you, brother.
“I didn’t grow up Lutheran, I grew up in the Eavgelical Lutheran Church of America..”
😂 The same with Presbyterians.
“ I didn’t grow up Presbyterian, I grew up PC (USA).” 😂
Paul said, marry who you want. Just make sure you're marrying a Christian... simple! Nothing mystical...I used to have a problem with that...
Hi Pastor, can I become a Lutheran but not believe in transubstantiation?
Lutherans don’t believe in Transubstantiation friend
I believe EXTRA STICC that he is asking if he can be Lutheran without believing our beliefs on the eucharist.
It is true that we do not believe in transubstantiation, but I would encourage you not to discredit our belief so quickly, without fully knowing it.
It is written in 1 Cor 10
Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?
The next verse he says:
Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.
He makes sure to point that there is only one loaf of bread. It is referring of course to the Body of Christ (because he said the verse before "is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ"). We are one body when we all share of the one loaf. When we partake of his Body. This is true because Jesus himself also said in John 6:22-45-60
:
Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me. Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God; he has seen the Father. Very truly, I tell you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats of this bread will live for ever; and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.’
The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, ‘How can this man give us his flesh to eat?’ So Jesus said to them, ‘Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day; for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me, and I in them. Just as the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever eats me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like that which your ancestors ate, and they died. But the one who eats this bread will live for ever.’ He said these things while he was teaching in the synagogue at Capernaum.
When many of his disciples heard it, they said, ‘This teaching is difficult; who can accept it?’
My friend, Jesus said of HIMSELF that we MUST eat his body and blood and believe it is him.
Remember, Christ is the LAMB of God. The altar sacrifice. Did the Jews eat of the sacrifice of the Lamb? ABSOLUTELY. They also ate of the Passover Lamb as well. When we partake, we eat of the Lamb of the new covenant.
I encourage you to dive deeper in your faith, and if you have questions about the Lutheran belief on this, to ask an LCMS pastor near you about it.
Blessings brother.
That woman @ 1:11:41 who said that Romans 3 was sarcastic and was not saying what it said, needs a verse by verse exegesis given to her. How could one read that chapter and think that it is a rhetorical device that is being used? Not but a few verses later he goes on to say "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." was that also mocking and sarcastic?
Man. Some people need to read more.
I know I'm being harsh on her, but... YIKES.
"Because if you keep reading, it's mocking that whole concept."
Man. She's lucky I wasn't there.
What kind of wanton heresy is she believing where what the Good Word of the solid GOSPEL isn't what it says (PLAINLY) in context.
YIKES!