By what magic does a tube amplifier create holographic imaging from a recording that was probably recorded and mixed with solid state microphone preamps and mixing consoles? You must consider the quality of the entire path from the original sound to your ears including the recording microphones, the vinyl production process including signal equalization, compression, blending, and the lacquer cutting lathe, your phono cartridge, your pivoted tonearm, your turntable, your speakers, and your listening room. You have no control over the quality of the recording and you can't compensate for some properties of the recording in playback. Sometimes bad sound in playback is the more accurate reproduction of the recording, and unless you were there and have a perfect memory, you can't know the difference.
The big difference I can see is that tube output stages are basically AC current-sources, meaning that, unlike with solid state, the output voltage more-or-less 'follows' the impedance curve of the attached speakers, altering the frequency-response..
The hybrid sounds like a great solution. The SS gives all the power and the input deals with the delicate sound. And tube replacement is cost effective. I use all triode with OTL. No coloration. Transparent. Sounds pretty good. But you have regular tube replacement cost.
I had a Crown CTS 2000. That amplifier was the cleanest amp I've ever heard. It blew away a Krell KAV 250 driving my big Infinitys and also on my Carver Amazing Loudspeakers.
I have a BHK Pre and 250 amp, and the PS Audio hybrid amps are definitely holographic. Moreso when I put NOS tubes in them. Maybe not quite to the degree as full tubes, though. For pure solid state Pass, Ayre, Luxman and Bakoon are all pretty good in that respect.
Agree. Such a subjective topic - I’m sure there’ll be millions of comments! Bang for buck For me absolutely, hybrid configuration with a high quality tube-pre (well coupled) and a solid-state power-amp stage, winner winner chicken dinner! Great post.
im loving my bhk pre-amp.ive got a soft spot for tubes at the moment. ive been looking at a display cabinet for the top rare tubes that im just about to start to purchase.
Tubes are special. I sold more expensive equipment and bought much cheaper gear with tubes and the sound was much better. I agree with Paul that having just one tube component (DAC or preamp) is best and use solid state for the power amps. The DOGE DAC7 is incredible for the money. I don't care about holographic images though. For me, tubes are special because the music sounds more real.
A vacuum tube and a transistor are both devices that control the flow of power from the input to the output. There is no particular magic in either one. That being said, I do think the physical size of the tube makes it easier to transfer those electrons. What tubes do however, is force simplicity on circuit designers. When was the last time you saw an amp with 16 output tubes? It happens with transistors. I built a single ended triode amp about 25 years ago. It has 24 parts per channel, from the input jacks to the binding posts. It was, and continues to be, the best sounding amp I have ever heard, and it changed the way I think about audio forever. I also built an Amp Camp Amp designed by Nelson Pass. It is a transistor single ended amp. It shares many of the S.E.T. traits while falling short on the lifelike qualities the triode tube can produce. I was using Audio Research Classic 150 amps when I built my S.E.T.--mono, top of the line when I bought them, triode wired tetrode tubes, Class AB, and, yes, 16 total output tubes. I sold them shortly after building my S.E.T. It's not the tubes, it's the topology.
@@yuriwalter385 Glass Audio magazine. Eric Barbour-designer, "Single Ended Glory". I built it from a schematic and a parts list. It looks like hell and sounds like heaven.
@@wilcalint My primary speaker is a pair of SoundLab A-2s. I have owned them for 35 years. I have powered them with A c-j MV-75 (all tube), 2 MV-75s, the Classic 150s (ss in, tube out), a Musical Fidelity NuVista 300 (nuvister tube in, ss out) and finally Mark Levinson ML-2s (Class A solid state). I avoided the Levinsons for years, even though they are the best amplifiers (monos) I have ever heard, because I thought at 25wpc they would not power my speakers. Then I discovered they were designed on, and for electrostatics, specifically the QUAD ESL, and they pump out tons of current. They have the "magic". What I was implying by the word magic was that a tube is not inherently better than a transistor. Tubes can sound bright, tubes can sound harsh, tubes can sound inferior. Properly used, transistors can sound "tube like", and neither of them sound like live music. The big problem with S.E.T.s is they have so little power, 99.5% of all speakers need not apply. I built my own using vintage Altec drivers running in a tri-amp mode with 2 S.E.T.s on the top and my Pass ACA on the bottom because while 2 watts will drive one 15" driver, it won't drive the two per side I have installed.
I tried ss, hybrid,and all tubes. I can tell you from my experience that all tube set up will definitely the way to go. But you can also achieve similar results in a hybrid setup but you will have to spend 3x to get there.
@@MCMTL There's a whole world of DIY'ers out there building all things tubes. Some of the circuits are over 70-years old. When you see a tube power amp with two EL34/EL88/6550 your looking at a piece of history. The WIlliamson A/B amps came out of the 30's and 40's. I owned one once: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williamson_amplifier
Tubes were cool in things like my grandpops old Magnavox Astro, but despite their peculiarities transistors are just so much better and easier to use. Tubes have horrific linearity characteristics compared to transistors. And because of the property of superposition the distortion is no different than any other audio device that generates it. On top of that the characteristics are not well controlled, and feedback is minimal since each active device is basically a 40W lightbulb rather than a little blob of silicon. Seems the tubes would be better with just some orange LEDs under them for show.
@@mysock351C tubes REALLY shine in a preamp in combination with a SS power amp. Tubes for power amplifiers ….it’s not what they are inherently perfect for. Not their comfort zone so to speak. But in a properly constructed preamp….man, I never heard a ss preamp sound as open, dynamic and 3d like my tube preamp. Highly recommended combination ! You would be amazed and probably kick your solid state preamp to the curb afterwards.
@@bikemike1118 The problem is audiophiles don't realize that distortion from a tube amp DOES NOT sound good or musical. At best it will just muddy the audio. Once you know how audio works and have an understanding of psychoacoustics you immediately learn there is no such thing as a "musical" distortion. Instead the tube amp is usually just a really crappy equalizer. Your speakers already have plenty of 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortion. Why add more, along with poor channel matching, sprays of harmonics, high output impedance that causes the speakers to pull the amplifiers output all over the place? The only tube amps I like are the higher end McIntosh tube amps as they are competently designed, have good characteristics, and are gorgeous to look at. Most everything else tube is junk. The only reason it "sounds" better is due to your perception of it sounding better. That is most certainly not a myth, and applies to me, you, all of us. If we think it sounds better, it will. But if I were to take your favorite tube amp, and a standard solid state, and put them somewhere that you could not see which one you were listening to the results would be much different. The best case scenario is that you would be indifferent. More likely you would happily take the solid state one over the tube stuff any day, because of the horrible nonlinearities tubes suffer from. They are terrible in that regard. Sure tubes look sexy, but once you pull back that pretty red dress, they are hiding lots of hairy, dirty, smelly secrets underneath. Transistors in their boring gray and black pantsuits, however, are far better in every other aspect if one ignores aesthetics.
@@bikemike1118 And that's the real reason I like my solid state stuff, its invisible. I cant hear it, and it stays the hell out of the way of the music like it should.
I too grew up with tubes/valves and vinyl and have no desire to return to those days. But is is what you prefer then go with it. Just don’t get fooled by marketing hype. Room acoustics and choice of loudspeakers have way, way more effect on audio quality.
I just got rogue audio apollo dark monoblocks with the rogue audio RP9 preamp. Now still waiting for my focal sopra 3s towers to get here!All tubes and heavy metal sounds amazing !
i agree all tube amps are probablynot as duable as using tubes only in the signal area and solid state for the output stages where you have to handle substantial current. In the 90's I hada Conrad Johnson PV10A preamp driving a modified Hafler power amp. I now have a Rogue RP5 tube preamp driving a pair of M700 monoblocks. Using power tubes is fraught with problems, they will only handle high current for a while before needing replacement and a couple of pairs of power output tubes is not cheap
The preamp stage is where sound colouration occurs and where the weak input voltage is boosted. I agree with Paul on using a vacuum tube amp on the input stage and a solid state amp on the output stage. The output stage will increase the current (or power) in order to drive the speakers properly. Guitar amplifiers work in a similar way in that the pre amp stage is where the amp’s unique characteristics are imparted to the weak signal from the guitar pick ups.
your 100% right. i have all tube amps and the problem in my view that the output stage can be weak. its not about being loud. its about power to drive properly. tubes on the input stage as a preamp work best in my setup. like you said in guitar amps also. i use to play 1960 an 70's marshall half stacks. same rule applies. great discussion.
@@josephvanalstyne4049I’m mainly a headphone guy and I got converted to preamps even though the common trope is they’re not needed anymore with the high voltage of modern DACs. I bet to differ. I have a McIntosh MHA200 tube headphone amp and while it sounds great going straight to my Chord Dave, it is still a bit flat and limpwristed until I added a C2300 tube preamp into the middle of the chain. It goes from a soundstage that is more like a rectangle room to a concert hall.
It is the end result that counts! Everything must be right. If your speakers are not made correctly and do not have good sound, it does not help no matter how good amplifier you have. Same if you do not have good sound source. Many expensive speakers are unfortunately not always made so well!
My current configuration uses 2 pairs of speakers. A custom built 3 way Altec type design from decades ago each using a 15" woofer, 12" midrange and an 811 horn. The other pair are a more modern and very controversial design, Tekton Designs 2 10 Perfect set wired for Bi Amp. My present power amps (5) are 2 full tube designs and 3 more classic solid state designs. The 811 horns are driven by a Laochen (very affordable) 6wpc class A SET tube amp and the Tekton mid/high array is driven by a Wavebourn Edelweiss 3 tube amp. The 2 10" woofers per speaker in the Tektons are driven by a Crown D150A, the 12" midranges (admittedly way too large for the job) in the Altec are driven by a D150a series II, and the 15" speakers are driven by a Carver M200t. I have honestly been so pleased with this system I cannot tell you. Tubes only are fine for medium to low listening levels and higher impedance speakers. The tube details and removal of grit and sibilance on the highs with human voice mids as well as orchestral instruments become so life like you just have to hear it. Maybe you already do, so you guys will get my excitement. But the more powerful solid state amps deliver the mid bass and sub bass with such authority that all but the extremely large, and expensive and power hungry tube amps might approach this sound. I could go on but suffice it to say I am well pleased with this "hybrid" approach, but I do cringe at my power meter readings on power out of the wall. This system also has the ability to switch to just one solid state amp,, the Crown D150a and Carver C-4000t preamp and my PS Audio Gain cell DAC to use a tiny fraction of the power for everyday use. I am very power cost concerned and am looking to run this system on a stand alone solar system which would reduce my guilt for the unfortunate inefficiencies of tube designs. But tubes and solid state each have their respective superior qualities and I'm enjoying them both very much.
@OldTooly. Sounds like you have a very nice set up but there are usually draw backs to any system. For example: 1. Cost 2. Maintenance of tubes and the heat and electricity 3. You said it yourself the tubes are more for “moderate” listening levels. If you turn up too high it becomes unbearable to listen to in my experience. 4. You didn’t point this out but in my experience mixing and matching so many combinations of amps doesn’t allow for a “linear” volume level listening experience. A lot of time needs to be invested and tweaked to adjust the gains if available for each amp and to find even one level sweet spot. If you turn up the volume each different style amp responds different to the input signal. So now the midrange is overpowering the bass. Your experience may be different. So taking a step back. The key to the holographic image anybody is referring to can be achieved with almost any speaker and amp combo. The key advice is from Paul is speaker “placement”. You pull them away from the wall and you achieve the holographic image. It worked for me. My system: Bought in late 90’s. Acurus A200 and A200x3. I don’t even use 5 channels all the time. Solid state amps. I listen to just two channel. Paradigm Studio 60. M&K subwoofer. Wattage is all the same for each amp 200watts. For the other speakers all Paradigm. Studio 20 for rear and Paradigm center channel. Preamp is also Acurus solid state. So I feel the advantages of my system are as follows: 1. Cost 2. Easy maintenance. Everything has lasted for over 20 years. 3. Ease of use. One remote control. I can control subwoofer level which is all that I need. 4. Linear experience with volume change. Sounds good to me at any levels. No further tweaking necessary other than subwoofer level adjustment if that. 5. Can listen to at any time of year. Amps don’t run hot. Electricity consumption not high. I do tend to listen to more in winter because I’m simply inside the house more vs driving my cars. The holographic soundstage is there. It’s amazing as to what happens when pulling the speakers further away from the wall. So imagine that. I’ve only been following Paul for less than 2 years and I only physically moved the speakers away from the wall in that time frame. Wow. Previously the soundstage wasn’t really quite there but I achieved various satisfactory listening levels all previous 20 years or so. Now I’m extremely happy. One last note. I don’t have any noise/buzzing in my system. I also have an Acurus power conditioner. It’s important to match the brands in my opinion. I mainly listen to my music through blue tooth also and my iPhone. So convenient. It’s made my CD/DVD player obsolete. I just don’t have the desire to turn it on. Now one last note. Do I think my system sounds better than yours? No way. I don’t even have to hear it. Happy listening. 👍
@@f430ferrari5 Thanks so much for the absolutely excellent reply. I try to keep my comments short and rarely do. You brought up exactly what I wanted to say but cut the comment shorter.The matching of amps and their often varying gain structures can be a real pain. I swapped about a dozen different amps from my 50+ year collection and settled on the ones I mentioned for now. And level setting between individual speaker components took over a year before I realized no one setting was going to cover every piece of music. So I have presets for certain albums that I have spent the time to tweak. I have to mention that I am old and am left with this one hobby/lifestyle other than the darker sides of life like doctors offices, and the insanity of the present world in general. So I spend all my free time experimenting. Most folks simply have other things to do. I have add that my room is a sonic disaster so to get holophonics requires a near field speaker setup. I learned this many decades too late. I had been trying to overpower the room for years. Alas my hearing suffered. But back to the tubes. They are a pain in the butt. The little set amps are the most practical but still draw 120 watts to give 12 out. Not good. I have a 40 wpc push pull amp that draws about 140 to give 80 out. Doesn't quite sound as good with the exception of the bass quality. But 4 power tubes , one blows, buy 4. Very expensive. I am cheating now with not perfectly matched EL 34 tubes and so far have not had any problems. I suspected it would be quite audible but it isn't. But the first major change to my overblown wall of sound system I had for years came with a set tube amp and 2 little Celestion Model A compacts on a test bench. The sound field was so gorgeous and the detail was astonishing. No real bottom end but that’s by far the easiest fix with sub woofers which I immediately did. And I have continued to build upon that little systems sound. I still occasionally have to go back to it to "reset" my perception or test my aging hearing, which can vary day to day. To the guys who have lives outside of audio, a good room and good speakers placed well with clean power and a great recording can do it all. No need for all the excentricities. But I'll never stop. My next step is to install my MINIDSP , dump the crossovers and control each individual speaker components timing, volume, tone, phasing. That should keep me busy for a long time. Thanks for the reply
@@OldTooly awesome. 👍. Thank for the comment back. It’s great you have the passion to switch and adjust and replace. A true audiophile in my book. 👍 I’m just a ham and egger. 😂 I was looking at flat panel ribbon type speakers but they all seem to deteriorate over time. Ughh!!! I can’t handle that. My only issue over the years is the M&K Miller Kreisel foam surround on subs tore apart. I replaced that foam surround with a repair kit around 2 years ago I believe. It has a different sound to it. It’s like tighter. I’ve been breaking them in over time and they sound better now. Luckily the Paradigm speakers have rubber surrounds and are like brand new. You really are passionate with your sound system. Keep going. 👍
@@f430ferrari5 Any of the bi directional ribbons, panels and even electrostatics to some degree need a near perfect room based on their individual requirements to get their full potential. I had mine ordered but no matter I I tried to do this room is just too multi purpose to devote solely to speakers so I adapted and am proud of the results. I have a much younger friend who is brilliant and well versed in many scientific facts about audio theory and speaker design. He often criticizes my design choices, especially the Tekton 2 10 Perfect Set speakers. We discussed the idea behind them at length for months before I bought them and he swore that they couldn't possibly sound any good . I got them and spent a week or so moving them around, swapping amps and playing many types of music. He finally came by and I purposely left the grills on them. I sat him in the sweet spot with as few words as possible and put on a somewhat rare acoustic version of The Verve Pipe - The Freshmen. After the song was over he looked at me and I removed the grills. Not another word about how stupid the design was. Then some weeks later he quietly turned to another friend and asked him, "Did you ever think you'd get sound like this from a speaker design like that?" So I knew he was sold. Then just last week he admitted how much better they sounded than my venerable 811 Altec horns with the 16 ohm 806a original drivers. And the case is closed. I am sitting on a pair of beryllium tweeters to upgrade from the silk, but honestly, as Mr. Anderson the designer of the speakers said, I don't know what you think you will gain from this. He also questioned my bi amping them, again he was correct. I am now, as of yesterday, using them with a single full range push pull tube amp 40 wpc and I see no reason to ever change this stunning configuration. Of course I will try other things but this may be my new reference sound.
@@OldTooly yes that’s my understanding too about panels and electrostats. Thanks again for sharing such wealth of info! I really enjoy reading. 👍 Do you mind if I ask as to how much you have invested in home audio. I think you have invested more than my car. 😂🤣
I remember 20 years ago learning difference between tubes and transistors/ solid state… one advantage to tubes is as I roughly remember but not exactly. Tubes 100% isolate and don’t let any electrons to jump over, while transistors can’t do that perfectly, some unwanted electrons do slip by. (Its those unwanted electrons that slip away create distortion or noises)
I’ve heard great solid state amps and great valve amps; there isn’t a yes/no answer. Combining a random solid state power amp with a random valve preamp also doesn’t guarantee a ‘better’ system. From experience there are more all-valve amps that deliver that ‘something special’ than all solid state amps. Even a quick lash up of a valve amp can have some magic, even with relatively poor performance on paper.
The long gone company Counterpoint used to do tube-SS hybrids. I still have one of their pre-amps. It was a sort-of-neat idea back then (in the 1980's), but I've come to think that the tubes are simply a preferred euphonic path (probably due to even harmonics) for some who want to avoid the edgy reality that surrounds us.
As the tubes degrade every time they are turned on , how do you decide when its time to change them , or how do you decide how good the sound is as its changing all the time , do you just run tubes until they match solid state and upgrade the sound with new tubes again , or stick with solid state and be happy as it is what it was and is what it will be tomorrow too ...
As hifi is always very personal and subjective thing - .in regards to what sound characteristics we like or want to hear...I can only say I love the hybrid route myself ...especially for digital music, streaming and playback. As tube pre amps or having tube in the input stage can definitely bring a little more harmonic warmth and dimensionality to the sound. Ironically the same is true with my guitar amps ..as my tube amp sounds just ....right! That said...digital modeling amps are now getting very very close to being able to mimic and add that subtle tube distort/gain. But it's still nice to have that tube glow
@@wilcalint hmmm...truth is, with so many (pre recording, post production and equipment) variables involved.... I think music capture and reproduction is all a compromise of sorts. As no recording or hifi system is truly accurate or respresentative, but are however people and companies best (or worst) technical approximations! So personally I think it simply comes down to pleasing our personal hearing, preferences and tastes...and budgets 😆!
@@humanitech As I have stated 9 out of 10 listeners will prefer the sound that tube amplification produces. Did you notice that all during this video Paul used "Holographic" many times but never once "accurate". Sounds good sells. Dry, detailed, flat, unforgiving are never brought up.
@@humanitech I am a long time fan of Nelson Pass and have owned a number of his products. I still have one of his preamps. It's like a wire with gain. But it's dry, flat and unforgiving. And definitely not holographic. Unless of course the content is.
You are right that speakers, room acoustics and proper placement are the most important. But source recording, and an amp that has good detail and ambiance will put the icing on the cake. You'll know your system has reached a high level of synergy when you can't tear yourself away from it to go to work or go to bed at night. LOL It's really a wonderful feeling. And yet I still experiment all the time. Audio and music are the greatest hobbies/lifestyle ever.
Except of maybe Infinity I do not regard myself as a hifi-brand-fanboy. However I recently changed my very nice Mark Levinson #27 to the BHK 250 and do absolutely not regret this decision. Do I care for the tube pre-stage? Not to much. But does it work for me? Oh, yeeees!
Not much I wouldnt do for a pair of those new half n half bi-amp Mcintosh units : / Im also told replacing ridonkulously expensive tubes bi-annually isnt very fun either though. $60 a month to juice a pure Class A amp isnt exactly appealing as well. A pair of small preamp tubes in front of a good Class AB definitely the sweet spot!
My SET amp has more bass, than ANY solid state amp, I've owned... That really surprised me, because I heard so many say SET amp lacks bass/bottom end..
@@vinylrules4838 An old 300b chinaman.. Lot's of heavy iron.. Yarland pro 200SE(old version).. Slightly modified- I have very difficult, demanding speakers- Horning Alkibiades, with Lowther DX4's and two backfiring 12" woofers.. No other amp has been able to do what this amp does.. I used to bi amp before, because to bass needed more power.. Not anymore. Never thought, I could go with only one amp.. I get goosebumps, everytime I listen to music.. Always avoided SET amps - didn't believe the hype. I get it now.
I agree with this. My same system of nearly 25 years ago sounds better now. I believe I lost some high frequency levels but that was the part that bothered me some in the past. Slightly too bright. I had to correct in the past by leaving on the speaker grills and finding other materials to taper off some of the highs from the tweeter.
Not true. My Quicksilver V4's slam hard with the right music passages (digital or analog) with the right speakers. I only use 2 speakers (one 10" bass driver each) and hit down towards 20hz. Even the bass is warm, very tight and smooth.
I supplement my "bass weak" EL34 SET amp, diving my KEF LS50 Metas in a not so big room, with two REL subs. Bass in spades with glorious midrange and holografic soundstage is the result. Have to admit though, that my PS Audio Stellar S300 power amp in a tube hybrid setup comes very close when combined with my other pair of speakers (Magnepan MG 1.4). 🙂
Anyone tried any of the Black Ice/Jolita tube products? how do their top range sound vs PS Audio's products? I cant seem to find much about them in use by people..
One vacuum tube in series with an audio signal that has gone through a "ton" of op-amps and transistors from music production to speakers doesn't make the signal path into a vacuum tube one, and the effect can only be additive. There is nothing wrong with enjoying tube sound, which can be very musical, but please don't use the term "purist" for someone adding a tube in an otherwise already "transistorized" signal path. Tube sound can sound awesome with many genres of music giving it a more live audiophile holographic feel, and that's what matters.
vacuum tube colors the sound. what you want is as much unchanged sound as possible. if you do not get good sound with a good and expensive amplifier then the problem is speakers or sound source or music recording and not the amplifier
@@ford1546 Yes, personally I rather EQ my system for optimum neutral frequency response than add tube distortion. The former is much more “purist” than the latter, but many audiophiles got that upside-down.
@Douglas Blake I don’t use tubes but I respect those who enjoy tube sound and have experienced some music being enhanced with it. Yeah, tubes are quite terrible technically speaking with inconsistent performance over time. But if a tube makes you happy, so be it. Some people wear makeup and it’s not for me to tell them they shouldn’t.
I have a Marshall Vs100r. I love this amp so much. But i still don't understand all about tubes. I know it's a hybrid. One tube in preamp. Can someone explain if this is that perfect combination which Paul speaks about?
So, if human hearing is sensitive to natural binaural spatial cues Interaural Level Difference (ILD) and Interaural Time Difference (ITD) created by ear orientation, outer ear pinnae shape, head shadow, and the distance between the ears, and stereophonic imaging is a property of the recording created by artificial stereo channel level and time differences created by microphone directionality, microphone orientation, microphone spacing, and mixing console panpot controls, and stereo channel level and time differences are rendered by spaced directional speakers, and separate amplifier channels provide essentially identical and independent signal paths, by what magic does an amplifier create holographic imaging?
@@faludabutt8253 I absolutely agree. When this tube vs SS issue has come up in the past on Paul's videos I have suggested that he build into one of his D/A converters a DSP fuction to virtualize the sound of the more popular tubes like the 12x series, EL34/88, 6550.
Personally I think a tube pre amp is a great way to try out and experience tubes... As they give that nice rich, harmonic and 3d sound (although the caveat is... different makes and brands of tubes can change the sound quite dramatically). However pre tubes tend to be a little bit cheaper to buy and generally last longer than power tubes. So it is fun to try and find the ones that suit your taste and system.
@John Talbot Yes, you are correct, as most tubes in tube pre amps are not that expensive and lend itself to tube rolling. I've owned a VAC PA 100 100 tube amp and ARC LS15 tube preamp since the mid nineties. But recently, l bought a pair of Maggie's. 7's and acquired a high watts/current D class amp as Maggie's love watts/current!! Class D amps are not everyone's cup of tea, but l find pairing my class D amp with My ARC LS15 tube pre amp very acceptable to my ears
If I feed both left and right amplifier channels the same signal with a Y cord and I listen from a position the same distance between left and right speakers I hear a phantom stereophonic illusion in the center between left and right speakers. If I disconnect one speaker, I hear the sound from the direction of the other speaker. If, instead of disconnecting one speaker, I disconnect one amplifier channel at the amplifier input, I hear the sound from the direction of the other speaker. It sounds exactly the same as disconnecting one speaker. Identical independent amplifier channels do not create a holographic spatial effect no matter what the amplifier is. If I feed both left and right amplifier channels the same signal with a Y cord and I listen from a position the same distance between left and right speakers I hear a phantom stereophonic illusion in the center between left and right speakers. If I listen from a position closer to one speaker, I hear the sound from the direction of the closer speaker, but it does not sound the same as disconnecting one speaker. Amplitude cannot correct time. The stereo channel balance control does not correct for listening closer to one speaker. No stereo channel level or time differences can create a phantom stereophonic illusion heard from a direction to the left of the left speaker or to the right of the right speaker or behind the listener. Stereo channel level and time differences in the recording create stereophonic imaging, not magical properties of the amplifier.
My experience is that the preamp is much more important than the amplifier in this regard. I have a beautiful vintage SAE 2100L preamp in my system that images like nothing else I've tried. So over the tube thing...
@@-MarkWinston- I wouldn't say that one thing is more important than the other. It's more about the total synergy of the system and everything working together in harmony.
@@TheTruthTeller1111 objectively, pre determines the sound more than power. It plays a way bigger role and IF sound was to be manipulated with, it would be via the pre.
Thatz what this space is about. Its pretty good marketing, pushing a book(very helpful though it is) as well as showcasing your products in a folksy kind of manner. Nothing wrong with making a living.
Paul, Tubes natutally produce even order harmonics 2nd, 4th order which the Ear likes....Solid State naturally produce odd order harmonics 1st, 3 rd oder which don't possess that harmonic euphoria all due to the very voltages in Tubes....do you agree with this ?
Correct. Although SS amps/pre do create even order harmonics, they are not as prevalent as with tube amps/pre's. I have an all tube system (even the CD player has tube outputs). I have owned many SS amps/pre's. The coloration, depth and warmth, detail and sound stage is unmatched in the tube system IMO.
@@DrBroncanuus Paul mentioned that it depends on the components used, which I agree 100% with. What type of SS amp verses what type of tube preamp. Say a Mark Levinson SS amp and an Ayon tube preamp, for example may not combine well, or match very smoothly. You might get the second order harmonics, but it may still be very neutral in it's presentation. In other words, some coloration but lacking in warmth. I have used SS amps in the past matched with a Vincent hybrid pre and had this rather neutral sound stage. Still a bit of coloration, but just lacking the warmth and detail. Now I have heard a Primaluna preamp hooked up to a PS audio SS amp (Stellar series I believe) and it sounded colorful and warm, but not as colorful and warm as my current system which is for the most part "all tube". Paul once said "is there too much tubes for a hifi system?". Much like matching gear is a big part of it, so is matching tube gear along with the type of tubes as well. Tubes come in a big variety of types (pre and driver/amplifier/rectifier). Each tube has a harmonic signature (sound). The type of tube used in the signal path can make a huge difference. It depends on what your aiming for. But, for the most part, a lot of preamp/amp gear can be very limited to the type of tubes you can use. A preamp with the ability to run some of the finest tubes (12au7 or 12ax7, ect.) and some special tube that only can be 1 type of tube only (and then your very limited to the manufacturers tube only) can create a deep sense of color, warmth and detail that even hybrids can not achieve. So, it depends on what your aiming for. It also depends heavily on you speakers. What are your speakers response ranges?, there db?, ect. That plays a big part of what will match well to them. Sorry for the long winded post, but this is really just scratching the surface.
@@jayedgar2373 Jay, thank you for such a detailed response....the best soundstaging I've ever heard came from Jeff Rowland power amp with Conrad Johnson pv10A pre ,Townsend Rock TT, with Sonus Faber Extremas speakers...
I've owned five different tube amps (3 ARC, 2 Almarro) and I'm currently using a BAT 255SE SS amp. IMO, tubes do many things right. Where they are lacking is with musical "textures". They tend to "smooth" things out -to "homogenize" the sound. SS is better at textures.
Its not the tubes that makes the sound its transformers.. It adds lots of harmonics,, thats why sound get befier and smother (cuts high end with smoth unlinear slope), tubes only make distortion difrences, but when playn loudly next to speaker it vibrate itself so it makes un even microphonics (glass itself).. Thats why guitarist like them and dont know why lol.. Thats the whole secret
I haven't owned a solid state amp in over 20 years and will never again. Tube amps and preamps only in the systems here. Paul, drop the hands work. It gets old fast.
Pretty much all of Valve production is in the hands of American adversaries and world events are upping the pressure. Have you done anything to hedge your bets in this area?
@@TheDanEdwards Do you know where Tubes are manufactured? Russia and China and Czechoslovakia. The main Chinese facility burned down a few years ago. War is looming. Paranoia? Really? I have friends that make Boutique guitar amps and other tube gear. They are concerned. It's already difficult to get tubes and are having tube quality issues like never before. You probably didn't think I knew what I was talking about. (And supply issues aren't just with Tubes but with capacitors and other components.)
@@drdelewded You are right. It is now and has been for a long time the Czech Republic and Slovakia. Tubes are made in the latter country. My apologies to the two countries. In my young adult days I had a friend from Czechoslovakia and this imprinted that in my mind. It's silly I let that slip because I watched closely the events of that country during the Clinton years. It was brutal.
Anything is possible with a sound stage.... Why don't audiophile engineers make new modern ( type ) tubes? Am I wrong when I say that we have been using the same model tubes forever.
Wow..tubes towards solid..But my setup system is inverted..Solid in Tubes out..Hows dat sir..I found it.Phenomenon..btw..heres the set..Solid(dual dac+dual THX amp) To class a 4 tubes..U should try it 1st then Talk..peace!
Sound dose not go through an amplifier, electrons do. Tubes or transistors amplifies electronic waves. The sounds are all in your ears and brain, There is no difference between tube or transistor amplification.
Sorry Paul I haven't had the joy of listening to any of your amps but given the annoyance of having to replace the valves (sorry I meant tubes) I don't plan to either. They also start to loose their quality as soon as you use them such that after a year or so they are in need of replacing, whereas solid state keeps sounding as good as they did originally (or at least after you have burnt them in). It may have been that solid state wasn't as good (or natural sounding) as tubes a couple of decades ago but nowadays some are so close why would you put up with tubes? Tubes also run hot so if you are willing to put up with that inconvenience there are some Tube-sounding (or very close to them) class A amps out there that sound magical (got my eye on a Pass Labs or a Luxman class A). I would have loved a PS audio amp but I don't like Valves (as you can tell) and your other range are class D which are only mid-fi IMHO. I think PS Audio is a great company and you're a very ethical leader so I hope I haven't offended you. Just making a comment, I hope your OK with that.
Dude you are calling class D midfi xD seriously xD you haven't heard a proper D class amp. That is literally the future. Do the input properly, and class D beats class A to the ground.
@@ZaklanaCeljadd You are right class D isn't mid-fi, my comment was too harsh. In recent years class D has improved substantially, however I still prefer class A for HiFi. It's worth the power usage and heat for the musicality of the sound and if you have solar panels electricity usage is not an issue (in the present or the future).
"I replace the tubes in this system on a fairly regular basis because it just brings more life to it" So that means that at hour one of tube usage to hour 500 the tube sounds different? I suggest that's a universal yes. Does it sound different hour one to hour 500. Sure I don't think anyone would challange that. What's changing? More, or less distortion? Can the change be measured? Given a group of listeners 9 out of 10 will prefer the sound of tubes. The best place to put the tube(s) in your circuit is at the front end. The input stage, just like PS Audio does. Is the sound of a tube amp different then a Solid State amp. Read the above Is the sound more accurate in a Solid State amp. Read the above. Most listeners will prefer the tube sound as against the "dry" and "lifeless" Solid State amp. Which amp is delivering the content more accurately? Read the above.
Shouldn't a sound system be based on the type of music you listen to? Isn't there a difference between Frank Sinatra and Prog Rock? Between Jazz and Punk Rock? Doesn't the output dictate the kind of stereo gear you need to have?
Let´s talk serious guys. It all depends on your bank account. Joke. If my music would be 99% Jazz, classic etc. of course Tube Amp would be the way to go. If you hear more POP, Electronic etc. than i would go for Hybrid or solid state. It´s that easy.
Depends on your listening tastes and ability to discriminate music. I'm listening any kind of music. If you try to listen punk and metal guitars in tubes the result in comparison with a very good solid state is awfull.. But you may say.. "i dont care.. dont like this kind of music".. ok then try to listen a classic, like this ua-cam.com/video/l4zkc7KEvYM/v-deo.html and try to listen clearly the piano with.. and without tubes. You may disagree.. but i find that tubes smooth the sound against instruments discrimination.
Despite what he says they can not unless you are really rich and spend 100 grand on amps and even then still not as good. The steely state does not sound better this guy sells them and is older so his ears are not quite as good. He would probably say the solid state is better or just as good he mostly sells solid state.
![ОРБАН приехал к ПУТИНУ и "отчитался" о поездке в Киев 😁 [Пародия]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/_0ukDovOWq8/mqdefault.jpg)
By what magic does a tube amplifier create holographic imaging from a recording that was probably recorded and mixed with solid state microphone preamps and mixing consoles? You must consider the quality of the entire path from the original sound to your ears including the recording microphones, the vinyl production process including signal equalization, compression, blending, and the lacquer cutting lathe, your phono cartridge, your pivoted tonearm, your turntable, your speakers, and your listening room. You have no control over the quality of the recording and you can't compensate for some properties of the recording in playback. Sometimes bad sound in playback is the more accurate reproduction of the recording, and unless you were there and have a perfect memory, you can't know the difference.
The big difference I can see is that tube output stages are basically AC current-sources, meaning that, unlike with solid state, the output voltage more-or-less 'follows' the impedance curve of the attached speakers, altering the frequency-response..
Excellent information and easily understood.
The hybrid sounds like a great solution. The SS gives all the power and the input deals with the delicate sound. And tube replacement is cost effective.
I use all triode with OTL. No coloration. Transparent. Sounds pretty good. But you have regular tube replacement cost.
Another sales pitch from Paul.
Using a 1000 as in thousand wpc class d amp. The best amp I ever owned!
I had a Crown CTS 2000. That amplifier was the cleanest amp I've ever heard. It blew away a Krell KAV 250 driving my big Infinitys and also on my Carver Amazing Loudspeakers.
I own a hybrid amp. Tube preamp and a AB power side. I love it.
I have a BHK Pre and 250 amp, and the PS Audio hybrid amps are definitely holographic. Moreso when I put NOS tubes in them. Maybe not quite to the degree as full tubes, though. For pure solid state Pass, Ayre, Luxman and Bakoon are all pretty good in that respect.
Croft Acoustics based in the UK make very good hybrid amps. Affordable too.
Agree. Such a subjective topic - I’m sure there’ll be millions of comments! Bang for buck For me absolutely, hybrid configuration with a high quality tube-pre (well coupled) and a solid-state power-amp stage, winner winner chicken dinner! Great post.
im loving my bhk pre-amp.ive got a soft spot for tubes at the moment. ive been looking at a display cabinet for the top rare tubes that im just about to start to purchase.
Great job always a Fan.
If you're running an tube amp at least you don't have to pay for heating in the Winter months. In the Summer you need air conditioning though.
Tubes are special. I sold more expensive equipment and bought much cheaper gear with tubes and the sound was much better. I agree with Paul that having just one tube component (DAC or preamp) is best and use solid state for the power amps. The DOGE DAC7 is incredible for the money. I don't care about holographic images though. For me, tubes are special because the music sounds more real.
A vacuum tube and a transistor are both devices that control the flow of power from the input to the output. There is no particular magic in either one. That being said, I do think the physical size of the tube makes it easier to transfer those electrons. What tubes do however, is force simplicity on circuit designers. When was the last time you saw an amp with 16 output tubes? It happens with transistors. I built a single ended triode amp about 25 years ago. It has 24 parts per channel, from the input jacks to the binding posts. It was, and continues to be, the best sounding amp I have ever heard, and it changed the way I think about audio forever. I also built an Amp Camp Amp designed by Nelson Pass. It is a transistor single ended amp. It shares many of the S.E.T. traits while falling short on the lifelike qualities the triode tube can produce. I was using Audio Research Classic 150 amps when I built my S.E.T.--mono, top of the line when I bought them, triode wired tetrode tubes, Class AB, and, yes, 16 total output tubes. I sold them shortly after building my S.E.T. It's not the tubes, it's the topology.
John, the SET you built was a kit? I'm willing to try one in the near future. Could you please tell us what was the model and maker? Thanks!
"There is no particular magic in either one". Oh No. There definitely is "magic" in those tubes. But what is that "magic"? Can it be measured?
@@yuriwalter385 Glass Audio magazine. Eric Barbour-designer, "Single Ended Glory". I built it from a schematic and a parts list. It looks like hell and sounds like heaven.
@@johnlebeau5471 Great! I'll look forward. Thank you! :)
@@wilcalint My primary speaker is a pair of SoundLab A-2s. I have owned them for 35 years. I have powered them with A c-j MV-75 (all tube), 2 MV-75s, the Classic 150s (ss in, tube out), a Musical Fidelity NuVista 300 (nuvister tube in, ss out) and finally Mark Levinson ML-2s (Class A solid state). I avoided the Levinsons for years, even though they are the best amplifiers (monos) I have ever heard, because I thought at 25wpc they would not power my speakers. Then I discovered they were designed on, and for electrostatics, specifically the QUAD ESL, and they pump out tons of current. They have the "magic". What I was implying by the word magic was that a tube is not inherently better than a transistor. Tubes can sound bright, tubes can sound harsh, tubes can sound inferior. Properly used, transistors can sound "tube like", and neither of them sound like live music.
The big problem with S.E.T.s is they have so little power, 99.5% of all speakers need not apply. I built my own using vintage Altec drivers running in a tri-amp mode with 2 S.E.T.s on the top and my Pass ACA on the bottom because while 2 watts will drive one 15" driver, it won't drive the two per side I have installed.
I tried ss, hybrid,and all tubes. I can tell you from my experience that all tube set up will definitely the way to go. But you can also achieve similar results in a hybrid setup but you will have to spend 3x to get there.
What's going on here. What is the difference? Can it be measured?
@@wilcalint hahaha
Any recommendations for a tube buffer? I have beautiful gear and I'm looking to add tubey goodness to my system.
@@MCMTL There's a whole world of DIY'ers out there building all things tubes. Some of the circuits are over 70-years old. When you see a tube power amp with two EL34/EL88/6550 your looking at a piece of history. The WIlliamson A/B amps came out of the 30's and 40's. I owned one once: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williamson_amplifier
@@wilcalint ok but where can I read about tube buffers and find one to buy or build. I live in Montreal.
Placement and treatment is half the battle. If you have that down, then you can observe the holographic image.
I'm the same age as you, Paul, so I grew up with tubes -- and I am done with them. I made the transition to solid state and never looked back.
Tubes were cool in things like my grandpops old Magnavox Astro, but despite their peculiarities transistors are just so much better and easier to use. Tubes have horrific linearity characteristics compared to transistors. And because of the property of superposition the distortion is no different than any other audio device that generates it. On top of that the characteristics are not well controlled, and feedback is minimal since each active device is basically a 40W lightbulb rather than a little blob of silicon. Seems the tubes would be better with just some orange LEDs under them for show.
@@mysock351C tubes REALLY shine in a preamp in combination with a SS power amp. Tubes for power amplifiers ….it’s not what they are inherently perfect for. Not their comfort zone so to speak. But in a properly constructed preamp….man, I never heard a ss preamp sound as open, dynamic and 3d like my tube preamp. Highly recommended combination ! You would be amazed and probably kick your solid state preamp to the curb afterwards.
@@bikemike1118 The problem is audiophiles don't realize that distortion from a tube amp DOES NOT sound good or musical. At best it will just muddy the audio. Once you know how audio works and have an understanding of psychoacoustics you immediately learn there is no such thing as a "musical" distortion. Instead the tube amp is usually just a really crappy equalizer. Your speakers already have plenty of 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortion. Why add more, along with poor channel matching, sprays of harmonics, high output impedance that causes the speakers to pull the amplifiers output all over the place? The only tube amps I like are the higher end McIntosh tube amps as they are competently designed, have good characteristics, and are gorgeous to look at. Most everything else tube is junk. The only reason it "sounds" better is due to your perception of it sounding better. That is most certainly not a myth, and applies to me, you, all of us. If we think it sounds better, it will. But if I were to take your favorite tube amp, and a standard solid state, and put them somewhere that you could not see which one you were listening to the results would be much different. The best case scenario is that you would be indifferent. More likely you would happily take the solid state one over the tube stuff any day, because of the horrible nonlinearities tubes suffer from. They are terrible in that regard. Sure tubes look sexy, but once you pull back that pretty red dress, they are hiding lots of hairy, dirty, smelly secrets underneath. Transistors in their boring gray and black pantsuits, however, are far better in every other aspect if one ignores aesthetics.
@@bikemike1118 And that's the real reason I like my solid state stuff, its invisible. I cant hear it, and it stays the hell out of the way of the music like it should.
I too grew up with tubes/valves and vinyl and have no desire to return to those days. But is is what you prefer then go with it. Just don’t get fooled by marketing hype. Room acoustics and choice of loudspeakers have way, way more effect on audio quality.
I just got rogue audio apollo dark monoblocks with the rogue audio RP9 preamp. Now still waiting for my focal sopra 3s towers to get here!All tubes and heavy metal sounds amazing !
i agree all tube amps are probablynot as duable as using tubes only in the signal area and solid state for the output stages where you have to handle substantial current.
In the 90's I hada Conrad Johnson PV10A preamp driving a modified Hafler power amp. I now have a Rogue RP5 tube preamp driving a pair of M700 monoblocks. Using power tubes is fraught with problems, they will only handle high current for a while before needing replacement and a couple of pairs of power output tubes is not cheap
The preamp stage is where sound colouration occurs and where the weak input voltage is boosted.
I agree with Paul on using a vacuum tube amp on the input stage and a solid state amp on the output stage.
The output stage will increase the current (or power) in order to drive the speakers properly.
Guitar amplifiers work in a similar way in that the pre amp stage is where the amp’s unique characteristics are imparted to the weak signal from the guitar pick ups.
your 100% right. i have all tube amps and the problem in my view that the output stage can be weak. its not about being loud. its about power to drive properly. tubes on the input stage as a preamp work best in my setup. like you said in guitar amps also. i use to play 1960 an 70's marshall half stacks. same rule applies. great discussion.
@@josephvanalstyne4049I’m mainly a headphone guy and I got converted to preamps even though the common trope is they’re not needed anymore with the high voltage of modern DACs. I bet to differ. I have a McIntosh MHA200 tube headphone amp and while it sounds great going straight to my Chord Dave, it is still a bit flat and limpwristed until I added a C2300 tube preamp into the middle of the chain. It goes from a soundstage that is more like a rectangle room to a concert hall.
When using transistors, FET's are my preference for the poweramp...
It is the end result that counts! Everything must be right. If your speakers are not made correctly and do not have good sound, it does not help no matter how good amplifier you have.
Same if you do not have good sound source.
Many expensive speakers are unfortunately not always made so well!
You have some monster amps and speakers there, making the ones in my collection very puney. Like the Q&A's very interrsting.
My current configuration uses 2 pairs of speakers. A custom built 3 way Altec type design from decades ago each using a 15" woofer, 12" midrange and an 811 horn. The other pair are a more modern and very controversial design, Tekton Designs 2 10 Perfect set wired for Bi Amp. My present power amps (5) are 2 full tube designs and 3 more classic solid state designs. The 811 horns are driven by a Laochen (very affordable) 6wpc class A SET tube amp and the Tekton mid/high array is driven by a Wavebourn Edelweiss 3 tube amp. The 2 10" woofers per speaker in the Tektons are driven by a Crown D150A, the 12" midranges (admittedly way too large for the job) in the Altec are driven by a D150a series II, and the 15" speakers are driven by a Carver M200t. I have honestly been so pleased with this system I cannot tell you. Tubes only are fine for medium to low listening levels and higher impedance speakers. The tube details and removal of grit and sibilance on the highs with human voice mids as well as orchestral instruments become so life like you just have to hear it. Maybe you already do, so you guys will get my excitement. But the more powerful solid state amps deliver the mid bass and sub bass with such authority that all but the extremely large, and expensive and power hungry tube amps might approach this sound. I could go on but suffice it to say I am well pleased with this "hybrid" approach, but I do cringe at my power meter readings on power out of the wall. This system also has the ability to switch to just one solid state amp,, the Crown D150a and Carver C-4000t preamp and my PS Audio Gain cell DAC to use a tiny fraction of the power for everyday use. I am very power cost concerned and am looking to run this system on a stand alone solar system which would reduce my guilt for the unfortunate inefficiencies of tube designs. But tubes and solid state each have their respective superior qualities and I'm enjoying them both very much.
@OldTooly. Sounds like you have a very nice set up but there are usually draw backs to any system. For example:
1. Cost
2. Maintenance of tubes and the heat and electricity
3. You said it yourself the tubes are more for “moderate” listening levels. If you turn up too high it becomes unbearable to listen to in my experience.
4. You didn’t point this out but in my experience mixing and matching so many combinations of amps doesn’t allow for a “linear” volume level listening experience. A lot of time needs to be invested and tweaked to adjust the gains if available for each amp and to find even one level sweet spot. If you turn up the volume each different style amp responds different to the input signal. So now the midrange is overpowering the bass. Your experience may be different.
So taking a step back. The key to the holographic image anybody is referring to can be achieved with almost any speaker and amp combo. The key advice is from Paul is speaker “placement”. You pull them away from the wall and you achieve the holographic image. It worked for me.
My system:
Bought in late 90’s. Acurus A200 and A200x3. I don’t even use 5 channels all the time. Solid state amps. I listen to just two channel. Paradigm Studio 60. M&K subwoofer. Wattage is all the same for each amp 200watts. For the other speakers all Paradigm. Studio 20 for rear and Paradigm center channel. Preamp is also Acurus solid state.
So I feel the advantages of my system are as follows:
1. Cost
2. Easy maintenance. Everything has lasted for over 20 years.
3. Ease of use. One remote control. I can control subwoofer level which is all that I need.
4. Linear experience with volume change. Sounds good to me at any levels. No further tweaking necessary other than subwoofer level adjustment if that.
5. Can listen to at any time of year. Amps don’t run hot. Electricity consumption not high. I do tend to listen to more in winter because I’m simply inside the house more vs driving my cars.
The holographic soundstage is there. It’s amazing as to what happens when pulling the speakers further away from the wall.
So imagine that. I’ve only been following Paul for less than 2 years and I only physically moved the speakers away from the wall in that time frame. Wow.
Previously the soundstage wasn’t really quite there but I achieved various satisfactory listening levels all previous 20 years or so.
Now I’m extremely happy. One last note. I don’t have any noise/buzzing in my system. I also have an Acurus power conditioner. It’s important to match the brands in my opinion.
I mainly listen to my music through blue tooth also and my iPhone. So convenient. It’s made my CD/DVD player obsolete. I just don’t have the desire to turn it on.
Now one last note. Do I think my system sounds better than yours? No way. I don’t even have to hear it.
Happy listening. 👍
@@f430ferrari5 Thanks so much for the absolutely excellent reply. I try to keep my comments short and rarely do. You brought up exactly what I wanted to say but cut the comment shorter.The matching of amps and their often varying gain structures can be a real pain. I swapped about a dozen different amps from my 50+ year collection and settled on the ones I mentioned for now. And level setting between individual speaker components took over a year before I realized no one setting was going to cover every piece of music. So I have presets for certain albums that I have spent the time to tweak. I have to mention that I am old and am left with this one hobby/lifestyle other than the darker sides of life like doctors offices, and the insanity of the present world in general. So I spend all my free time experimenting. Most folks simply have other things to do. I have add that my room is a sonic disaster so to get holophonics requires a near field speaker setup. I learned this many decades too late. I had been trying to overpower the room for years. Alas my hearing suffered. But back to the tubes. They are a pain in the butt. The little set amps are the most practical but still draw 120 watts to give 12 out. Not good. I have a 40 wpc push pull amp that draws about 140 to give 80 out. Doesn't quite sound as good with the exception of the bass quality. But 4 power tubes , one blows, buy 4. Very expensive. I am cheating now with not perfectly matched EL 34 tubes and so far have not had any problems. I suspected it would be quite audible but it isn't. But the first major change to my overblown wall of sound system I had for years came with a set tube amp and 2 little Celestion Model A compacts on a test bench. The sound field was so gorgeous and the detail was astonishing. No real bottom end but that’s by far the easiest fix with sub woofers which I immediately did. And I have continued to build upon that little systems sound. I still occasionally have to go back to it to "reset" my perception or test my aging hearing, which can vary day to day. To the guys who have lives outside of audio, a good room and good speakers placed well with clean power and a great recording can do it all. No need for all the excentricities. But I'll never stop. My next step is to install my MINIDSP , dump the crossovers and control each individual speaker components timing, volume, tone, phasing. That should keep me busy for a long time. Thanks for the reply
@@OldTooly awesome. 👍. Thank for the comment back.
It’s great you have the passion to switch and adjust and replace. A true audiophile in my book. 👍
I’m just a ham and egger. 😂
I was looking at flat panel ribbon type speakers but they all seem to deteriorate over time. Ughh!!! I can’t handle that.
My only issue over the years is the M&K Miller Kreisel foam surround on subs tore apart. I replaced that foam surround with a repair kit around 2 years ago I believe. It has a different sound to it. It’s like tighter. I’ve been breaking them in over time and they sound better now.
Luckily the Paradigm speakers have rubber surrounds and are like brand new.
You really are passionate with your sound system. Keep going. 👍
@@f430ferrari5 Any of the bi directional ribbons, panels and even electrostatics to some degree need a near perfect room based on their individual requirements to get their full potential. I had mine ordered but no matter I I tried to do this room is just too multi purpose to devote solely to speakers so I adapted and am proud of the results. I have a much younger friend who is brilliant and well versed in many scientific facts about audio theory and speaker design. He often criticizes my design choices, especially the Tekton 2 10 Perfect Set speakers. We discussed the idea behind them at length for months before I bought them and he swore that they couldn't possibly sound any good . I got them and spent a week or so moving them around, swapping amps and playing many types of music. He finally came by and I purposely left the grills on them. I sat him in the sweet spot with as few words as possible and put on a somewhat rare acoustic version of The Verve Pipe - The Freshmen. After the song was over he looked at me and I removed the grills. Not another word about how stupid the design was. Then some weeks later he quietly turned to another friend and asked him, "Did you ever think you'd get sound like this from a speaker design like that?" So I knew he was sold. Then just last week he admitted how much better they sounded than my venerable 811 Altec horns with the 16 ohm 806a original drivers. And the case is closed. I am sitting on a pair of beryllium tweeters to upgrade from the silk, but honestly, as Mr. Anderson the designer of the speakers said, I don't know what you think you will gain from this. He also questioned my bi amping them, again he was correct. I am now, as of yesterday, using them with a single full range push pull tube amp 40 wpc and I see no reason to ever change this stunning configuration. Of course I will try other things but this may be my new reference sound.
@@OldTooly yes that’s my understanding too about panels and electrostats.
Thanks again for sharing such wealth of info! I really enjoy reading. 👍
Do you mind if I ask as to how much you have invested in home audio.
I think you have invested more than my car. 😂🤣
My solid state Soundcraftsmen Pro Power 10 amplifiers have a very tube-like sound.
I remember 20 years ago learning difference between tubes and transistors/ solid state… one advantage to tubes is as I roughly remember but not exactly. Tubes 100% isolate and don’t let any electrons to jump over, while transistors can’t do that perfectly, some unwanted electrons do slip by. (Its those unwanted electrons that slip away create distortion or noises)
Ummm... no, that's not how the universe works. It's not even how tubes work. Do you know why tubes are _vacuum_ tubes?
I’ve heard great solid state amps and great valve amps; there isn’t a yes/no answer. Combining a random solid state power amp with a random valve preamp also doesn’t guarantee a ‘better’ system. From experience there are more all-valve amps that deliver that ‘something special’ than all solid state amps. Even a quick lash up of a valve amp can have some magic, even with relatively poor performance on paper.
The long gone company Counterpoint used to do tube-SS hybrids. I still have one of their pre-amps. It was a sort-of-neat idea back then (in the 1980's), but I've come to think that the tubes are simply a preferred euphonic path (probably due to even harmonics) for some who want to avoid the edgy reality that surrounds us.
As the tubes degrade every time they are turned on , how do you decide when its time to change them , or how do you decide how good the sound is as its changing all the time , do you just run tubes until they match solid state and upgrade the sound with new tubes again , or stick with solid state and be happy as it is what it was and is what it will be tomorrow too ...
As hifi is always very personal and subjective thing - .in regards to what sound characteristics we like or want to hear...I can only say I love the hybrid route myself ...especially for digital music, streaming and playback. As tube pre amps or having tube in the input stage can definitely bring a little more harmonic warmth and dimensionality to the sound.
Ironically the same is true with my guitar amps ..as my tube amp sounds just ....right!
That said...digital modeling amps are now getting very very close to being able to mimic and add that subtle tube distort/gain. But it's still nice to have that tube glow
9 out of 10 audiophiles will prefer the sound of tubes. Is it more accurate?
@@wilcalint hmmm...truth is, with so many (pre recording, post production and equipment) variables involved.... I think music capture and reproduction is all a compromise of sorts. As no recording or hifi system is truly accurate or respresentative, but are however people and companies best (or worst) technical approximations!
So personally I think it simply comes down to pleasing our personal hearing, preferences and tastes...and budgets 😆!
@@humanitech As I have stated 9 out of 10 listeners will prefer the sound that tube amplification produces. Did you notice that all during this video Paul used "Holographic" many times but never once "accurate". Sounds good sells. Dry, detailed, flat, unforgiving are never brought up.
@@humanitech I am a long time fan of Nelson Pass and have owned a number of his products. I still have one of his preamps. It's like a wire with gain. But it's dry, flat and unforgiving. And definitely not holographic. Unless of course the content is.
I thought the stereo and holographic sound depends mainly on the speakers and the room setting.
It depends on whatever you want to explain to your declining bank account.
Sooo... A diminished bank account equates to a expanded holographic sound stage? Very interesting.
You are right that speakers, room acoustics and proper placement are the most important. But source recording, and an amp that has good detail and ambiance will put the icing on the cake. You'll know your system has reached a high level of synergy when you can't tear yourself away from it to go to work or go to bed at night. LOL It's really a wonderful feeling. And yet I still experiment all the time. Audio and music are the greatest hobbies/lifestyle ever.
At 1:02 Paul turns to the camera with his best Joe Biden impersonation.
Except of maybe Infinity I do not regard myself as a hifi-brand-fanboy. However I recently changed my very nice Mark Levinson #27 to the BHK 250 and do absolutely not regret this decision. Do I care for the tube pre-stage? Not to much. But does it work for me? Oh, yeeees!
Nelson Pass' GFA 5500 uses FETs and it holds its own.
Not much I wouldnt do for a pair of those new half n half bi-amp Mcintosh units : / Im also told replacing ridonkulously expensive tubes bi-annually isnt very fun either though. $60 a month to juice a pure Class A amp isnt exactly appealing as well. A pair of small preamp tubes in front of a good Class AB definitely the sweet spot!
Nice to see you but a speaker that fits in your room 🙂
My SET amp has more bass, than ANY solid state amp, I've owned... That really surprised me, because I heard so many say SET amp lacks bass/bottom end..
Yes, but what is the quality of the bass? Solid state tends to be cleaner, tighter and can dig deeper. What is your tube amp?
@@vinylrules4838 An old 300b chinaman.. Lot's of heavy iron.. Yarland pro 200SE(old version).. Slightly modified- I have very difficult, demanding speakers- Horning Alkibiades, with Lowther DX4's and two backfiring 12" woofers.. No other amp has been able to do what this amp does.. I used to bi amp before, because to bass needed more power.. Not anymore. Never thought, I could go with only one amp.. I get goosebumps, everytime I listen to music.. Always avoided SET amps - didn't believe the hype. I get it now.
My Stella produces a great soundstage.
The reality is that hearing ages and how things sound to you 20 years ago is different than now,
I agree with this. My same system of nearly 25 years ago sounds better now. I believe I lost some high frequency levels but that was the part that bothered me some in the past. Slightly too bright.
I had to correct in the past by leaving on the speaker grills and finding other materials to taper off some of the highs from the tweeter.
If you want the best sound from your amp, then youll know that tubes are king and replacing tubes should never be a concern to you.
It depends. I think some solid state sounds better.
Solid state on the output ( IMHO) is the way to get the bass slam present in certain music.
Not true. My Quicksilver V4's slam hard with the right music passages (digital or analog) with the right speakers. I only use 2 speakers (one 10" bass driver each) and hit down towards 20hz. Even the bass is warm, very tight and smooth.
I supplement my "bass weak" EL34 SET amp, diving my KEF LS50 Metas in a not so big room, with two REL subs. Bass in spades with glorious midrange and holografic soundstage is the result. Have to admit though, that my PS Audio Stellar S300 power amp in a tube hybrid setup comes very close when combined with my other pair of speakers (Magnepan MG 1.4). 🙂
Too many people telling other people what they (the other people) want. Listen and choose.
Anyone tried any of the Black Ice/Jolita tube products? how do their top range sound vs PS Audio's products? I cant seem to find much about them in use by people..
Crappy computer stereo speakers also can give stereo imaging. It's all about speakers & listener positions, not tube or solid state.
You have a lot to learn...
Learned enough to say. Instead if one couldn't do that, he has a lot to learn.
One vacuum tube in series with an audio signal that has gone through a "ton" of op-amps and transistors from music production to speakers doesn't make the signal path into a vacuum tube one, and the effect can only be additive. There is nothing wrong with enjoying tube sound, which can be very musical, but please don't use the term "purist" for someone adding a tube in an otherwise already "transistorized" signal path. Tube sound can sound awesome with many genres of music giving it a more live audiophile holographic feel, and that's what matters.
vacuum tube colors the sound. what you want is as much unchanged sound as possible. if you do not get good sound with a good and expensive amplifier then the problem is speakers or sound source or music recording and not the amplifier
@@ford1546 Yes, personally I rather EQ my system for optimum neutral frequency response than add tube distortion. The former is much more “purist” than the latter, but many audiophiles got that upside-down.
@Douglas Blake I don’t use tubes but I respect those who enjoy tube sound and have experienced some music being enhanced with it. Yeah, tubes are quite terrible technically speaking with inconsistent performance over time. But if a tube makes you happy, so be it. Some people wear makeup and it’s not for me to tell them they shouldn’t.
Many moons ago in a video Paul show 600 watt tube amp in the works when is this amp coming out?
I have a Marshall Vs100r. I love this amp so much. But i still don't understand all about tubes. I know it's a hybrid.
One tube in preamp. Can someone explain if this is that perfect combination which Paul speaks about?
In my two channel setup I run a Schiit tube preamp with a Crown xls power amp. The two compliment each other quite well.
There's a stain on the carpet.
How many times does this have to be answered
I think italian company Pathos made a hybrid amp before PS audio.
Hey paul, sell a fella your take outs. I bet there's plenty life left in those tubes
Those speakers look bitchin 👌
Very nice 🙂
So, if human hearing is sensitive to natural binaural spatial cues Interaural Level Difference (ILD) and Interaural Time Difference (ITD) created by ear orientation, outer ear pinnae shape, head shadow, and the distance between the ears, and stereophonic imaging is a property of the recording created by artificial stereo channel level and time differences created by microphone directionality, microphone orientation, microphone spacing, and mixing console panpot controls, and stereo channel level and time differences are rendered by spaced directional speakers, and separate amplifier channels provide essentially identical and independent signal paths, by what magic does an amplifier create holographic imaging?
It's all smoke and mirrors.
Paul have you heard Audio Note UK system?
tubes are fun because you can change the sound to your preference by changing the tubes if the amp is compatible.
"change" what is the change? Can it be measured" Is it magic? Or is it just distortion? If you change something pure arn't you just distorting it?
Dac could be changed to alter sound, same as tubes
@@faludabutt8253 I absolutely agree. When this tube vs SS issue has come up in the past on Paul's videos I have suggested that he build into one of his D/A converters a DSP fuction to virtualize the sound of the more popular tubes like the 12x series, EL34/88, 6550.
Yes Paul, you may put your feet up on the sofa and change tubes every day 😊
they can leave the power amps there but sources should move to a separate stand
Hybrids sound good.
If you go with a SS amplifier and match it with a tube preamplifier, would that be considered a good compromise?
Personally I think a tube pre amp is a great way to try out and experience tubes... As they give that nice rich, harmonic and 3d sound (although the caveat is... different makes and brands of tubes can change the sound quite dramatically). However pre tubes tend to be a little bit cheaper to buy and generally last longer than power tubes.
So it is fun to try and find the ones that suit your taste and system.
@John Talbot
Yes, you are correct, as most tubes in tube pre amps are not that expensive and lend itself to tube rolling. I've owned a VAC PA 100 100 tube amp and ARC LS15 tube preamp since the mid nineties. But recently, l bought a pair of Maggie's. 7's and acquired a high watts/current D class amp as Maggie's love watts/current!! Class D amps are not everyone's cup of tea, but l find pairing my class D amp with My ARC LS15 tube pre amp very acceptable to my ears
Why do tube amps make music so much more life-like?
you say those speakers beat IRS V? hmmmm
If I feed both left and right amplifier channels the same signal with a Y cord and I listen from a position the same distance between left and right speakers I hear a phantom stereophonic illusion in the center between left and right speakers.
If I disconnect one speaker, I hear the sound from the direction of the other speaker.
If, instead of disconnecting one speaker, I disconnect one amplifier channel at the amplifier input, I hear the sound from the direction of the other speaker. It sounds exactly the same as disconnecting one speaker. Identical independent amplifier channels do not create a holographic spatial effect no matter what the amplifier is.
If I feed both left and right amplifier channels the same signal with a Y cord and I listen from a position the same distance between left and right speakers I hear a phantom stereophonic illusion in the center between left and right speakers.
If I listen from a position closer to one speaker, I hear the sound from the direction of the closer speaker, but it does not sound the same as disconnecting one speaker.
Amplitude cannot correct time. The stereo channel balance control does not correct for listening closer to one speaker.
No stereo channel level or time differences can create a phantom stereophonic illusion heard from a direction to the left of the left speaker or to the right of the right speaker or behind the listener. Stereo channel level and time differences in the recording create stereophonic imaging, not magical properties of the amplifier.
You haven’t heard anything as good as your BHK? What about Boulder 3050, which I assume is produced in the same town?
What is Holographic Sound ??
It means when it sounds like the instruments and voices are in the same three dimensional space as you, as if you could even walk around them.
My experience is that the preamp is much more important than the amplifier in this regard. I have a beautiful vintage SAE 2100L preamp in my system that images like nothing else I've tried. So over the tube thing...
Same thing with my Soundcraftsmen gear.
Pre definitely plays a bigger role than power in this instance
@@-MarkWinston- I wouldn't say that one thing is more important than the other. It's more about the total synergy of the system and everything working together in harmony.
@@TheTruthTeller1111 objectively, pre determines the sound more than power. It plays a way bigger role and IF sound was to be manipulated with, it would be via the pre.
@@-MarkWinston- I believe the speakers make the biggest difference.
Sell your amps … it’s good for image of company to push your products to market :-)))$$$
Thatz what this space is about. Its pretty good marketing, pushing a book(very helpful though it is) as well as showcasing your products in a folksy kind of manner. Nothing wrong with making a living.
2:58 you missed this i guess
Paul, Tubes natutally produce even order harmonics 2nd, 4th order which the Ear likes....Solid State naturally produce odd order harmonics 1st, 3 rd oder which don't possess that harmonic euphoria all due to the very voltages in Tubes....do you agree with this ?
Correct. Although SS amps/pre do create even order harmonics, they are not as prevalent as with tube amps/pre's. I have an all tube system (even the CD player has tube outputs). I have owned many SS amps/pre's. The coloration, depth and warmth, detail and sound stage is unmatched in the tube system IMO.
@@jayedgar2373 Hi Jay, thank you...what are thoughts on mixing Tube Pre with Power SS ?
@@DrBroncanuus Paul mentioned that it depends on the components used, which I agree 100% with. What type of SS amp verses what type of tube preamp. Say a Mark Levinson SS amp and an Ayon tube preamp, for example may not combine well, or match very smoothly. You might get the second order harmonics, but it may still be very neutral in it's presentation. In other words, some coloration but lacking in warmth. I have used SS amps in the past matched with a Vincent hybrid pre and had this rather neutral sound stage. Still a bit of coloration, but just lacking the warmth and detail. Now I have heard a Primaluna preamp hooked up to a PS audio SS amp (Stellar series I believe) and it sounded colorful and warm, but not as colorful and warm as my current system which is for the most part "all tube". Paul once said "is there too much tubes for a hifi system?". Much like matching gear is a big part of it, so is matching tube gear along with the type of tubes as well. Tubes come in a big variety of types (pre and driver/amplifier/rectifier). Each tube has a harmonic signature (sound). The type of tube used in the signal path can make a huge difference. It depends on what your aiming for. But, for the most part, a lot of preamp/amp gear can be very limited to the type of tubes you can use. A preamp with the ability to run some of the finest tubes (12au7 or 12ax7, ect.) and some special tube that only can be 1 type of tube only (and then your very limited to the manufacturers tube only) can create a deep sense of color, warmth and detail that even hybrids can not achieve. So, it depends on what your aiming for. It also depends heavily on you speakers. What are your speakers response ranges?, there db?, ect. That plays a big part of what will match well to them. Sorry for the long winded post, but this is really just scratching the surface.
@@jayedgar2373 Jay, thank you for such a detailed response....the best soundstaging I've ever heard came from Jeff Rowland power amp with Conrad Johnson pv10A pre ,Townsend Rock TT, with Sonus Faber Extremas speakers...
one word - bryston
Great local tube amp maker... oh wait.. hhahha
I've owned five different tube amps (3 ARC, 2 Almarro) and I'm currently using a BAT 255SE SS amp. IMO, tubes do many things right. Where they are lacking is with musical "textures". They tend to "smooth" things out -to "homogenize" the sound. SS is better at textures.
I find the opposite true tubes make music steely state makes noise.
@@erics9754 You've never lived with the BAT 255SE SS amp. Pure magic. P.S. I do use tubes in my Pre.
This is arguing from a flawed premise, DOH. Logic 101.
Paul, I just don’t lean anything from you anymore. You are moderating.
Its not the tubes that makes the sound its transformers.. It adds lots of harmonics,, thats why sound get befier and smother (cuts high end with smoth unlinear slope), tubes only make distortion difrences, but when playn loudly next to speaker it vibrate itself so it makes un even microphonics (glass itself).. Thats why guitarist like them and dont know why lol.. Thats the whole secret
Googles “holographic sound”
I haven't owned a solid state amp in over 20 years and will never again. Tube amps and preamps only in the systems here. Paul, drop the hands work. It gets old fast.
Pretty much all of Valve production is in the hands of American adversaries and world events are upping the pressure. Have you done anything to hedge your bets in this area?
"Valve production is in the hands of American adversaries" - a wee bit into paranoia...
@@TheDanEdwards Do you know where Tubes are manufactured? Russia and China and Czechoslovakia. The main Chinese facility burned down a few years ago. War is looming. Paranoia? Really? I have friends that make Boutique guitar amps and other tube gear. They are concerned. It's already difficult to get tubes and are having tube quality issues like never before. You probably didn't think I knew what I was talking about. (And supply issues aren't just with Tubes but with capacitors and other components.)
@@L.Scott_Music Czechoslovakia hasn't existed for 30 years.. You might as well have called Russia the Soviet Union..
@@drdelewded You are right. It is now and has been for a long time the Czech Republic and Slovakia. Tubes are made in the latter country. My apologies to the two countries. In my young adult days I had a friend from Czechoslovakia and this imprinted that in my mind. It's silly I let that slip because I watched closely the events of that country during the Clinton years. It was brutal.
@@L.Scott_Music
I dated a Czech girl for 5 years.. and her crazy old dad made sure I knew the difference hahaha..
Tube all day long
Anything is possible with a sound stage.... Why don't audiophile engineers make new modern ( type ) tubes? Am I wrong when I say that we have been using the same model tubes forever.
That's because tube technology is really obsolete.
I think mate if I get you right I think all tubes have been done there's no variation left to consider every application using tubes has being made
Wow..tubes towards solid..But my setup system is inverted..Solid in Tubes out..Hows dat sir..I found it.Phenomenon..btw..heres the set..Solid(dual dac+dual THX amp) To class a 4 tubes..U should try it 1st then Talk..peace!
U know Y i did this??Cuz my a class tubes Only aloud Bal in n no others..N ive got this solid with bal out..Walla..phenomenon is born..peace!
McIntosh
Sound dose not go through an amplifier, electrons do. Tubes or transistors amplifies electronic waves. The sounds are all in your ears and brain, There is no difference between tube or transistor amplification.
Sorry Paul I haven't had the joy of listening to any of your amps but given the annoyance of having to replace the valves (sorry I meant tubes) I don't plan to either. They also start to loose their quality as soon as you use them such that after a year or so they are in need of replacing, whereas solid state keeps sounding as good as they did originally (or at least after you have burnt them in).
It may have been that solid state wasn't as good (or natural sounding) as tubes a couple of decades ago but nowadays some are so close why would you put up with tubes?
Tubes also run hot so if you are willing to put up with that inconvenience there are some Tube-sounding (or very close to them) class A amps out there that sound magical (got my eye on a Pass Labs or a Luxman class A). I would have loved a PS audio amp but I don't like Valves (as you can tell) and your other range are class D which are only mid-fi IMHO.
I think PS Audio is a great company and you're a very ethical leader so I hope I haven't offended you. Just making a comment, I hope your OK with that.
No. Tubes do not degrade that fast unless they are being run really hot, and/or are left on 24/7.
Dude you are calling class D midfi xD seriously xD you haven't heard a proper D class amp. That is literally the future. Do the input properly, and class D beats class A to the ground.
@@ZaklanaCeljadd You are right class D isn't mid-fi, my comment was too harsh.
In recent years class D has improved substantially, however I still prefer class A for HiFi. It's worth the power usage and heat for the musicality of the sound and if you have solar panels electricity usage is not an issue (in the present or the future).
I dare u Paul......go listen to the French Amp company: Lavardin, which is pure Solid State. ✌️♥️🇩🇰
I think toobs sound better.
"I replace the tubes in this system on a fairly regular basis because it just brings more life to it"
So that means that at hour one of tube usage to hour 500 the tube sounds different? I suggest that's a universal yes. Does it sound different hour one to hour 500. Sure I don't think anyone would challange that. What's changing? More, or less distortion? Can the change be measured?
Given a group of listeners 9 out of 10 will prefer the sound of tubes. The best place to put the tube(s) in your circuit is at the front end. The input stage, just like PS Audio does.
Is the sound of a tube amp different then a Solid State amp. Read the above
Is the sound more accurate in a Solid State amp. Read the above.
Most listeners will prefer the tube sound as against the "dry" and "lifeless" Solid State amp.
Which amp is delivering the content more accurately? Read the above.
Shouldn't a sound system be based on the type of music you listen to? Isn't there a difference between Frank Sinatra and Prog Rock? Between Jazz and Punk Rock? Doesn't the output dictate the kind of stereo gear you need to have?
Let´s talk serious guys. It all depends on your bank account. Joke. If my music would be 99% Jazz, classic etc. of course Tube Amp would be the way to go. If you hear more POP, Electronic etc. than i would go for Hybrid or solid state. It´s that easy.
Just replace the tubes. They are not expensive...
people dissing tube amps here have never heard a modern tube amp like a VTL or Manley
Depends on your listening tastes and ability to discriminate music. I'm listening any kind of music. If you try to listen punk and metal guitars in tubes the result in comparison with a very good solid state is awfull.. But you may say.. "i dont care.. dont like this kind of music".. ok then try to listen a classic, like this ua-cam.com/video/l4zkc7KEvYM/v-deo.html and try to listen clearly the piano with.. and without tubes. You may disagree.. but i find that tubes smooth the sound against instruments discrimination.
Trust your ears, not "experts".
Sir,same,cut the crap,,,all they do is amplify!...if youre a good designer you understand...reviewers dont know nothing!
Despite what he says they can not unless you are really rich and spend 100 grand on amps and even then still not as good. The steely state does not sound better this guy sells them and is older so his ears are not quite as good. He would probably say the solid state is better or just as good he mostly sells solid state.