How to REALLY Get That Tube Sound!
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- Опубліковано 15 кві 2023
- In this video, learn how to REALLY get that tube/valve sound. It may be easier than you think!
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I got steered to buying Dynaco in the early seventies when I was 18. I've had my ST 70 and PAS preamp of 50 years
The advantage solid state has with "fast" bass is from the higher damping factor.
I worked at an audio dealer after being a musician. I own audio research tube electronics but also a Tubeworks MosValve power amplifier which used Mosfet devices which operate closer to a tube device. I like tube and solid state. I have both.
"When tube amps distort?" - When are they not distorting. A little hum and a bit of distortion make tube amps sound sooo good. I think a tube preamp is the best way to handle tubes in a system. My next vintage receive will be a Fisher tube receiver. Good Job
I agree with this great explanation of how they sound vs solid state. Watch the whole video, he really has good advice on comparing at purchase as well as repair. Tube amps look like half enpty parking lots, from the underside, while solid state is crowded with circuit boards full of traces and solder points that can fail mysteriously. Lots of great intel here!
Thank you, JackT!
The Bottlehead kits are great and have really fantastic build instructions.
I subbed a couple of months ago and I really like the content and style of your channel so far. Keep up the good work and thanks for the videos. 👍😎
Thanks for the sub!
Love your vids Kevin! So fun and informative, and I really dig your laid back style. I'm building an amp camp amp right now. Thinking a tube kit will be next. Oh, and I just ordered a T and platter mat. Stoked!
Awesome! Thank you! That sounds fun! Will get your order sent out tomorrow.
easy to follow and "warm" delivery make this channel one of my favorites, nice job covering this subject Kevin. Now I have to check this tube sound thing out... have to check out another rabbit hole! Have a good one and keep up the fun videos!
Thank you!
Just picked up one of the last, new Primaluna Dialogue Premium amps on the planet and I'm just really impressed. Can listen to it for hours have almost no fatigue. Not the most economical, but should retain since the model has been retired. Super happy with it, along with a SS preamp..
Great breakdown between the two. Thanks !!
I started out as a kid with a Grundig Tube set... yeah, it was warm in many ways (some not so good) and only single tube output (EL 84) so very low power. Being young I just got it as-is and lived with it (and all the popping caps and terrible FM Multiplex distortion). Upgraded to a Marantz 2226B and never looked back since! Now I'm sporting two Marantz 2500s, Pioneer SX-1050 and 1250, Concept 16.5 and a Marantz 4400. I've since experimented with a few early Grundig Solid State units and WOW what an improvement over the tube stuff I've had and heard. I picked-up a few more Telefunken and Grundig tube sets and they suffer the same woes as my early Grundig with crap FM sections and just muddy sound. I just cannot warm-up to tube stuff... at least German. Early German Solid State Amplifiers (when working which is rare) sound great and warm... I'd say tube-like. I love my SV 85 Grundig console Amp, but count the days until it goes unstable and kills the output stages. Only theory I can come up with is Germanium transistors: They do have a warmer sound than modern (IMHO), but for clean, accurate and dynamic range I love the high power solid state stuff.
Your timing couldn't have been better with this one. I've been wanting to try something in the tube world for a while but really didn't know where to begin. Thanks!
Glad I could help!
You are so right about the Fisher 400 receiver!
Love that damn receiver. Does everything I need it to.
Skylabs is my favorite vintage audio UA-cam channel. Your honest easygoing presentation is the best. And today you showed my favorite Muddy Waters recording! Great video about tubes / solid state.
BTW just bought a T-shirt.
Appreciate it John. I will get your shirt sent out tomorrow. Thanks!
See you guys this Friday. Hope you have XL Ts in stock. Can't wait to see the store.
I agree. I tend towards tubes myself for the reasons you expressed, but I've heard a lot of SS I could live with 100%. My current system consists of a tube Heathkit on Klipsch Heresys. And to augment the short comings of those pieces of kit I recently added a SVS 1000 sub. It's a hybrid that diehards may dismiss but it's getting the job done for me in all so many pleasing ways. Another great video. Thanks!
Thank you, Jeff!
Thanks, Great video as usual. I don’t know much about tube gear so it was very useful for me.
Glad you enjoyed it!
I’m running a restored Fisher SA-300.
It’s my favorite amp, the only drawback is that it heats up the whole room very quickly 🔥
Thanks for another interesting video! I was not aware of the term Chi-Fi, so that has turned me on to the Chi-Fi community. I stumbled upon Chi-Fi about a year ago, when I bought a cheap tube amp. After a few months, I made some small modifications: replaced the blue power LED with a neon bulb, added VU meters to the input, an L-pad on the output, DI boxes on both the input and output for balanced connectors, and a volume knob that goes to 11. It definitely sounds different than my solid-state gear, so as an effect (hence the L-pad and DI boxes) or to directly drive speakers, it's good fun. I would be reluctant to tinker with a very expensive or rare amp, but my Chi-Fi is cheap enough and not so rare, so I can modify it without worry. I also agree that some music sounds better on tube or solid state, so having both options is the best of both worlds.
Another informative and well done video! One potentially negative thing for tube gear that I don't think you mentioned, was that they can warm a room a bit, which is a consideration in the desert sw where your are having to run a/c a lot. I know some folks that have a summer amp system. Guess that could be the same for some big class A SS amps... I am not sure I agree with your comment about the bass not being as fast with tube amps, but will be doing an a/b test with a pair of vintage tube monoblocks (mackit30s) and a solid state Bryston Amp, both driving a pair of LaScalas- I'm hoping that there is a difference, though more in a less "harshness" sound then a difference in bass....
Why do McIntosh amps have tight bass when other valve amps don't? Because they have a brilliant design called "Unity Coupling" that not only coaxes more power out of the valves at a given (and safe!🤨) B+, but does so whilst operating in pure Class B(!!!😱😏) & with a "mere" 40db(!!!) of NFB(😱😱😱) to linearise the amp. By applying 20db (10x !) more NFB than all the other valve amps did (& today's RUBBISH from Audio Research, Octave, & the makers of KRUDE SET abortions use even less than 20db; IF they use feedback at all!🤦🙉). Today's MORONS whose designs are little more than napkin scribbles made after 8 beers 🍻 at the local pub don't have NFB in them not because NFB is "bad!"; but because they're too STUPID to know HOW to use it!🤪🤤🤤🤤
So in their cases, yes; NFB is bad because their stupidity means that the NFB reveals a BAD design if it can't tolerate NFB or actually sounds worse with it added...🤦
And the sonic results of no & insufficient NFB are all your typical Valve Sound ills:
Mushy, slow, thick bass. Vague imaging. Rolled off highs. And to me, worst of all, a lack of low-level resolution of detail that valve circuits can & should absolutely clobber the tranny-trash at, but don't!🙄😮💨
That's why hybrids are the best of both worlds... tube preamplifier stage, which is the more critical part of the signal chain amplification and SS amplifier stage. With setups like this, you get a lot of the sound signature of a tube amp without the heat produced by large output tubes, and you get the efficiency and punch of an SS amp ! But if you want to go pure tube, I totally agree with Kevin's recommendations. ..
I have a amp that has tubes in the preamp and A and B in the amp and it sounds great
Precisely. I found that perfect (to me) balance using a tube-based phono preamp and a vintage Marantz receiver. Also contributing are vintage Infinity RS speakers.
SS and digital has gotten so good. don't miss them
The t-shirt you are wearing is exactly what I recently requested. Thanks for the code as I just ordered mine.
Awesome! Thank you!
I'll get it shipped out tomorrow!
@@skylabsaudio
Awesome, can't wait!
Very informative enjoyable video. Thanks
I like the combination of a tube preamp and or, a tube first driver stage in an amplifier. The output I prefer is a balanced, matched, fully complimentary- symmetry solid-state final power amplifier.
I did find the Sony V-FET integrated amplifiers from decades ago, absolutely beautiful to my ear.
I have tube manuals with complete schematics from the 70's. I would build another tube amplifier, if I felt that I could get quality impedance matching output transformers. Not mediocre ones which are more readily available.
Radio Shack also offered a tube stereo receiver in the 1960's. I believe this was actually a rebadged Kenwood receiver from that era. The Realistic STA-50Y put out about 22-24 watts per channel with good clean sound.
Fisher receivers from that time period, really sound good. All equipment from that far back will need rejuvenation if that hasn't been performed in the past couple of years. Tube receivers, amplifiers, tuners, will all drift from original values.
My grandfather made tube radios from kits, but that was the early 20s. I have one of his radios and a bunch of old tubes, doesn't work but looks interesting. BTW, you're brave posting picks of rock celebs wearing your t-shirts.
excellent advice in this one!
You mentioned V-FET amplifiers, and I happened to have the opportunity to hear the Sony V-FET amp compared to SAE and Crown on one occasion, and remembered preferring its more "liquid" and smooth presentation by comparison. I also heard the Yamaha B-1 V-FET amp, and remembered preferring its smooth, but detailed presentation compared to Yamaha's power BJT siblings and also compared to some Carver units. On both occasions, I preferred the V-FET units. Sound like tube units though? Not quite. Preferred over other SS, but no cigar for exactly copying the tube amps. Interesting time it was. (BTW, I also owned a Dynaco ST70 at the time!!)
My favorite piece of tube (Hollow State) audio gear is my Seeburg DS160, the last of the fully visual record changer, jukeboxes, as well as being full stereo.....
Very interesting video. Thanks for that.
I have the Fisher 500C as part of my vintage collection. I have had it totally restored and it sounds great. I would be very reluctant selling it as I like having the option of listening to tube or ss. I have also noticed that over the years the prices of these vintage tube receivers have not increased to the same degree ss have. But neither have they dropped in price. Definitely worth looking into if anyone is interested in vintage tube.
Agree!
They sound great, but the compromises abound that hinder their desirability: the varying degrees of availability of the 7591's & especially 7868's that are ONLY made in Pootin's 💩 RuZzia, they run hotter than a Frito roasting in the skillet of hell, & in order to make room for all its features, because a tuner uses the bulk of the available real estate because it uses so many tubes, there's little room for a sophisticated phono, line, or amplifier stage. The genius of the Fisher 400/500/800 receivers is how well their designers managed to make those incredibly simple circuits sound. The phono has barely enough gain for anything other than the highest output MM's (High-Output MC's need not apply!), the tone circuit is non-defeatable & both stages save further space by having all their resistors & capacitors built into "PEC's" (Packaged Electronic Circuit) which are custom-made ceramic substrate (😝) passive IC's. Upgrading these is sonically worthwhile but an epic pain in the arse, since you need alot more room & there's not enough as it was!
The sheer "busy-ness" of these receivers, the inability to lower the scorching bias on those rare & valuable output valves (& if you did, the very simple single 12AX7 front end won't be able to swing the additional voltage required & so the sound will go to 💩), not to mention the SHEER AWFULNESS of their large but incredibly crudely wound & very limited bandwidth OPT's, all mitigate against future exponential price increases that may yet continue to drive up Mc & Marantz prices.
Love 'em for what they are, mediocre sensitivity tuner with a beautiful sound marred by the usual 💩y multiplex tube tuners ALL have (save the 6-Valve one in the Marantz 10B!), a really sweet but low gain MM phono that still manages to compete with the very best at ANY price, nicely designed & flexible tone controls that hardly detract from the sound of the unit, & a true Fisher-sounding power amp with its BIG bass, luscious mids, sweet clear upper mids & little to no treble to speak of...🤗
A Fisher Valve receiver never sets a sonic foot down in the wrong place; unlike the horrid stereo separates of the same vintage like the truly HORRIBLE SA-12/100, SA-300, & SA-1000 (in which every valve chosen for it is a weirdo long out of production & impossible to find at almost any price: 8417's, ELL800's, & ECC808's!!!😳🤯🤪🤤🤤🤤🤦).
Thank you this great info…!
A decade or so ago I was aggressively perusing Craigslist in my quest to find decent audio gear that had long eluded me when I was younger because of cost. I got lucky and stole a bunch of great stuff!! 40 bucks for a Marantz 2240 in decent shape. 35 bucks for a Sansui G5700. I had the Marants serviced by "the guy" and it cost me 400 bucks but its good for the net 30 years now. He replaced a TON of the little electro-gizmos in it. I spent big (ha) bucks to get a Pioneer SX 980. Think that was $200. But my personal Holy Grail was a Fisher 500B with a perfect case for 35 bucks. Ten minutes from my door. I had it serviced and bought new power tubes for it. They failed within 100 hours and the originals went back in. I am not certain that the tech really did enough to the unit, however. I have that paired with a set of 700-dollar Klipsch Cornwalls now and LOVE the sound. I am an "enthusiast" but I am not upper echelon in my ability to pontificate audio...so all I can say is that it SOUNDS awesome. It's ever so slightly different than SS. I think your comment about the speed of bass notes, how they snap on and off with SS gear is dead nuts on. Not so much with the tube. But listening to an analog guitar amp hum in the background on an old Jimi Hendrix recording is very cool. I don't hear that so much on my SS gear. But my daily banger is the SX980 with KLF-30s AND a down-firing 15-inch sub. My place has a loft and very high ceilings and the bass from the KLFs just gets swallowed up. It's weird. But that sub slams onto a solid wood floor over a crawl space. With that, I can shake the whole house when I want to. Think of "Fat Man in the Bathtub" on Waiting for Columbus....the first time Kenny hits the bass in the opening. It's a very very sweet combo. Loved the vid! Thanks. My kids going to inherit a motherlode when I crap out.
Lucky kids! lol. Thanks for watching and commenting! Appreciate it
Hey Kevin, love the little rap right at the beginning 😂
Although it has been decades since I listened to tube gear, your observations seem consistent with what I remember. You made an interesting observation about "tube distortion sounds better than solid state distortion". I assume you are referring to harmonic distortion vs amplifier clipping. My question is whether tube amp clipping is any more or less hazardous to speaker components than solid state. My guess is they are the same, but I certainly could be wrong.
great vid - thanks
I had a few tube amps, a good old Leak and a class A 35 watt tube amp with current feedback, max. 0.35% distorcion. The Leak sounded "warm" and wooly. The second one almost like a SS amp, tight in the bass, very detailed like a good class D amp. The problem was that i could not find a (Brazilian) technician to repair it, need to dump it. There are not many people in this country who can serve a tube amp, even a vintage SS amp. Because of that i bought a class D el cheapo $50 Aiyima 07 and a $50 Aiyima A3 tube buffer, pre amp, changend the op amps and it sounds great, close to my class A tube amp for peanuts. This is the future. small, powerfull, real 60 watt in 8 ohm and when combined with a tube buffer, without any cold or harsh traces.
Tubes for me everytime it took me a while to get to them but now I have, I doubt I will ever go back. I don't have issues with slow or lack of Bass. I have a superb British Grant Lumley Reference ST70 which has been totally re capped with top quality Nichicon and silver Audionote parts & point to point silver rewired. It can be run in Ultra Linear or Triode mode. I have NOS tubes by RCA, GEC Mullard and Golden Lions. It takes no prisoners with bass weight or speed. Just totally amazed by the mids and highs, sound stage is superb I will never ever, sell it.😊
Sounds fun!
Best Tube VS Solid State talk I have ever heard!!!! First, lets break things down, because it's not as simple as "Tubes" verses "Transistors". If you are talking to a guitar player (like I am) a 40 watt tube amp gives you more HEADROOM (max volume) than a 200 watt transistor amp. It's limiting factor is really NOT the tubes, but the OUTPUT TRANSFORMER...yes, it is and a ROCK guitarist can vary the "crunch" or distortion at will. You need a distortion pedal to do it with a transistor amp because they don't OVERLOAD as easily as tubes and their limited power supplies. Tubes have a limited frequency response, also transistors don't so much...hence the sweetness to tube amps; they don't pass the "harshness" that transistor amps do as easily, by simple design ADVANTAGE of transistors. Remember, tubes were first in electronics design, then came transistors...because of all of the ADJANTAGES they presented manufacturers and the consumer: much more rugged, broader freq resp, LESS DISTORTION, etc, etc. Led Zep would have sucked with "clean" amplification, like Pat Boone!!!! And lets be real; how many of us listen to classical piano and flutes and accapella corrals, virus AC/DC, Zep, Kansas, YES and Emerson Lake and Palmer????? What is a "POWER CHORD Mr. Pete Townsend?...I'm dating myself, but it was OUR generation that started all of this...I am 70 years old and still ROCKIN')!!"
Please do NOT fall PREY to the "audiophile" sellers claims of some new magic circuit, nothing, I said NOTHING has been "discovered" in the tube world since 1965. It's cheep to build and you do not need to spend any money, or very little, to build Tube Gear. They get their designs from old audio patiented circuit design books, available to us ALL....certainly you do not need to spend $5,000 to $50,000 at retail, for the HONOR of the "magik" of the TUBE SOUND. This information is real and gleaned from a technical audiophile guitar player of over 50 years (ME), I'm not making a cent on this...THEY are...A LOT. When looking for a Tube like amp with all of the "transistor world" advantages over tubes, remember this...Look for Jfets in the preamplifier section (like a 12ax7 tube is always in the preamp) and MOSFETS in the power amp section (like 6L6's in the output section of a tube amp) and you will have a real winner....and it won't cost you an arm and a leg. Again, don't fall PREY to the Hi-Fi CHARLITAIONS!!!! I hope I saved you 'al a ton of money and got you closer to audio nirvania. Don't be a SNOB over something that you really don't understand, seek HONEST advice...not from PROFETEERING CHARLOTIANS! GOOD DAY
Thank you, Charles! Appreciate it! Great sound does not need to cost very much, at all.
Helpful stuff. Thanks. I have the Allied 333(I have seen one on your display shelf on certain videos.) Do you have a volume pot available for this unit? Thanks for everything.
Ours is a Knight 333 (same exact model as your Allied and the Pioneer C300). Sorry we do not :(
I own a Unison Research Unico Primo, it's a hybrid integrated with solid state amplification and a tube based pre, best of both worlds
Yes, they color the sound by way of the type of distortion they put out. It's pleasing to the ear.
Look up the Bob Carver challenge, where he dial in the transfer function to make any solidstate sound like tubes
And don't forget Tube Buffers/ PreAmp
Tube preamp and mos-fet power amp is perfect combination. In my opinion.
I have a tube preamp (Audio Research) and mono amplifiers that are solid state up to the tube outputs and OMG the bass is deep and tight and fast. I've heard very few systems that sound as real from the deep bass all the way up to my ears limits. Of course I have full range electrostatic speakers (Acoustat X). I find that while I can live with good solid state sound tubes are just more real. I do have a very good sounding solid state preamp (Rappaport modified).
Hybred is the way
excellent channel teams that are works of art!!! What opinion does the brand deserve for you? Concept 11.0 and Concept 16.5?

great info! if you want to introduce tubes into an existing system the ifi itube tube buffer is 250$ used loaded with a nos ge tube that you will never have to swap, no noise no hum no distortion no smearing just more air and realism. people spend more on cables these days.
another great option is to use a tube preamp like the schiit freya or the rogue rp 1 and a class a/b solid state power amp. it gives you the best of both worlds warmth air and realism with fast weighty bass. regarding nos or vintage tubes we are at the bottom of the barrel get'em while you can....
A tube buffer is just an added & unnecessary stage of bad amplification that no decent system either needs or benefits from. With valve phono & line stages as expensive as they often are, take the hint when you notice that all these dumb "buffers" are all cheap Chinese things.
As far as mating a valve Preamp with soiled-scrape amplification, the only advantage is that the valves are smaller & cheaper, & there's usually less of them than in a power amp. This is the entry strategy for someone who's Tube Curious but Tube Anxious at the same time. Sonically, a trans-zipster pee-amp & a Valve Amplifier make an equally compelling choice from a sonic standpoint. But if it's Valve Sound you crave, the hybrid approach is less than the sum of its parts. So if you want the other 75% or so that you won't be getting from this hybrid combo, you have to dive in 100% in order to get the full-fat experience...😉
Great info Kev! 👍
I would add that anyone not familiar with tube amps should know is, don't let a low-wattage output fool you... A 4 watt tube amp is equivalent to about a 15 - 20-watt solid state amp.
I find a tube amp acts like it has about twice solid state power.
That's true only for Push-pull circuit amps. As Kevin says, they hide their clipping very well. Single-Ended amps OTOH, don't!
Treat them as the wimpy & screwed-up sounding distortion generators that they pretty much all are!😝
It is the "damping factor" that you are hearing in bass handling difference between SS and tube gear. SS can put that speaker cone exactly where it needs to be nearly instantly. I have a Fisher 500c and a full Dynaco ST70 with preamp and tuner, both fully restored, that are in rotation with some SS gear for daily listening. Thanks for the informative vid. PS, the blues through the tube gear has a special quality all it's own.
Damping Factor is a big deal, it's what makes some speaker designs incompatible or a poor match with tube power amps, solid state not so much.
Damping factor is an issue and solid stat amps can have a high damping factor which controls the bass better but there are tube amps that can control the bass pretty well. My old Audio Research D90 when it was working had good bass control.
Damping factor is a bit of a red herring, actually. What is "Damping Factor" anyway? Simply, it's the ratio of the loudspeaker's impedance to the "Source" impedance (Step right up! Pick a damping factor! Any damping factor! And watch as Joe The Magnificent accurately guesses the damping factor that you're achieving today! "Less than 20"!🤣🤣🤣).
Note "Source Impedance". NOT "Amplifier output impedance"!🤨
Meaning, you HAVE to factor the impedance contribution of your SPEAKER CABLE as well as the amplifier's output impedance. With a typical speaker wire run (≈12ft.) & the added resistance of the mechanical connections at both ends, not to mention the runs of much thinner wire inside the amp & speakers, you're lucky if you can exceed say, 0.5Ω.
Which means that with your 1,000,000W Swiss monoblocs with their "rated" damping factor of 10 zillion, you'll ACTUALLY only get a real-world damping factor into a typical 6Ω speaker of, wait for it...TWELVE!
Now, since a Dynaco Scario 70 might have an output impedance, with that same length of our hypothetical speaker wires, of more like 0.75-1Ω, then MAYBE the fact that my damping factor would fall from a whopping 12 to just 9 or even 6, IS responsible for its looser bass.
But as a Valve Amp Designer with 40yrs. experience who's worked on & extensively upgraded & modified at least 30 Stereo 70's over the years (as one example of the hundreds of amps I've fixed, designed, & built), I can confidently state that other things make a vastly greater contribution to the quality of bass you get from a reasonably well designed valve amp (as opposed to the plethora of Audio/Mystic/Screwup-"designed" zero-NFB SE abortions🤪, which are HOPELESS!). Things like:
1) Badly chosen bias values of the Output Stage, such as fool-on Class A operation which is absolutely necessary for Single-Ended Stupid operation as well as amps that don't use fixed bias.
Which virtually EVERYBODY is guilty of, BTW.🤦
2) Lousy and/or tired passive parts; mostly lousy (failing and/or high dielectric absorption signal & PS capacitaters🪗🤧)
And those screwy oil caps that some lost souls think sound better (???) are just as bad!
3) Power supply output impedance. A tube rectum-fryer is a sure way to get gloopy, dull, vague, lifeless, & opaque sound. NOT suitable for REAL High-Fidelity, IMHO. It amazes me how everyone I interact with can't understand the difference between "amplification" & "rectification" & therefore why in this application, silicon rules!🎼🎶
4) Insufficient amount of power supply capacitance & barely adequate power transformers. Increase either or both of these & hear the magic happen!🤗
5) Improper circuit design, and/or improperly chosen operating points for the voltage amplifier, phase inverter, & driver stages. This is HUUUUUGE! as well.😳
Further proof of the above is that it's not only Valve amplifiers that have issues with the archetypal "Toob Bass".
Ever notice that 99% of Valve PREAMPS suffer the exact same ills?🤔😏
@@joerosen5464 Hi Joe. Very interesting comment! Thank you! 🙏
What would you recommend as the best (and most cost-effective) entry into tube amplification then?
I'm not looking for specific model numbers, more like topology and perhaps brands.
If you want to try tubes out. You can use a small tube preamp in you mix. These can be had for 50 bucks. They will introduce tons of second order distortion which what all the warm tube sound is . They make a huge difference for next to no dough.
A fine tube amp is about far more than just introduced second order distortion. Solid State amps cannot match the you-are-there 'palpability' and sound staging that fine tube amps reveal. That said, two paths to tube goodness: go the low power amp/high efficiency speaker route or spend serious money to get the power modern low efficiency speakers require. Check out what buyers say about Decware amps; bespoke US built, order que is a 2 yr wait and a LIFETIME warranty. If reselling, a modest reasonable charge to transfer warranty.
@@geoffreydebrito7934 I have a Decware Se-84 with every mod done to it. Soundstage is second to none. Lots of fun!
@@danmaclean1169 you lucky dog! ;-)
Great video. I’ve got a couple of SS systems right now. I’ve got a Marantz 1060 paired with a 105B tuner and an Adcom GFA5400 paired with a GFT400 tuner/ preamp. I think it would be great to add some tube gear to my system, for listening to jazz and R&B acoustic blues. I’ve been seeing a lot of info lately about finding old consoles and using the amps and preamps out of those. Is this just asking for trouble? I’ve also considered vintage Dynakit monoblocs. Any advice?
Some of those console Magnavox amps are awesome.
I have a lot of tube audio both vintage and newer..
I have HH Scott 340, 399, 299C, 222C, 299, and a pair of 210F
with a Jadis Defy 7 and several of my own design amplifiers and
in the case of the ones I designed and built as well as the Jadis, they
were built so that they reproduce music accurately with no warm
or 'tubey' sound. A good properly designed tube amp will sound little different then
a good quality solid state amp. The idea is that you don't even know
the amp is there. Just the music. Any tube amp that sounds 'warm' or
lacks bass punch is not well designed or has too small output transformers
and a weak power supply. But, my amps and the Jadis are real expensive to built.
As with anything you get what you pay for.
I had a pair of ADS L810s in the 70s and 80s.
Best of both worlds?: tube preamp for imaging and smoothness along with a transistor amp. Kinda smooth with a lot of wallop that will stay in its lane.
Very nice explanation. I have a Commodore Stereo-Matic tube radio with phono input. It plays in mono. Played As long as she need me by Sammy Davis Jr. Wow!! Big Band, Sarah Vaugn, Johnny Mathis. Cool radio!!
Love Ms Vaughn!
@@skylabsaudio The song LaBamba has a tapping sound that's pronounced with tubes. I'm like where did that come from??
Wonderful intro to tube vs solid state video! Straight & to the point, no extra unneeded fluff to muddy the confusion waters.
Let me ask you a question- what are your thoughts on 300b amps, say the Willsenton R300 for a modern example, and them seeming, at least allegedly, to have the ability to to sort of mitigate the whole "not enough low end" issue some folks have in reserve to buying tube pieces for their system?
Now I know that this huge bass they are alleged to produce isn't going to be as tight as a high current transistor amplifier, but at least the quantity is supposed to be more than adequate, from my understanding. The reason I'm asking is because I've only heard a few EL34 (push/pull & SE) & one 6L6 based push/pull before but never a classic 300b SET. I'm a huge Metallica fanboy, funny enough, and it seems to me that the "warm" sound that's also "big" everyone who hasn't heard tubes before envisions stems from 300b designs fitting that bill pretty well. I feel like some of these modern single ended variants of EL34, for example, sort of crush what people have envisioned tubes sounding like once they hear one because they lack the "big" part of the envisioned sound and really only work for acoustic or jazz, sort of like you mentioned.
If you've ever heard or serviced an old solid state MOSFET B&K ST-140 at your shop, then I feel like this is more of the sound that people have planted in their heads of what tubes are supposed to bring to the table, at least tonally. I love my ST-140 and am modding it as we speak, but am wondering if maybe a 300b might fit the bill for a first tube amp.
Again, wonderful video. Should be much higher up on the search results. Love your channel!
Thank you, Clay!
Hmm, it seems like a possible follow up video might be...:
5 (6?8?10?) Vintage Receivers That Sound The Most Tube-Like
Wel said vintage tubes needs to be purchased with caution . I purchased a pre owned tube pre amp that was in storage for years. After using it for a few days it SMOKED my speakers. The pre amp sent DC VOLTAGE to my speakers . Literally my speakers were smoking . If anything purchase a variac and introduce voltage to unit over time .
I own a HH Scott 340B which is often the recommended alternative to Fisher receivers. It's really cool but it definitely requires more maintenance than my solid state and the tubes prices have been going crazy with the Ukrainian situation.
When it's mentioned that average lifespan of a tube is around 10,000 hours, this number comes from amps that are turned on and off a few thousand times. It's the heating and cooling cycle that slowly wears on the tube. I know it's theoretically not a great idea to leave your tube equipment on, but I know a lot of people that only turn their amp on when they plan to use it that day and leave it on for many hours. This in comparison to playing music for 20 minutes and turning it off. The end result of course is much longer lasting tubes. Same goes for guitar amps, let it run for a while don't quickly use them.
Having used a Fisher for while, I'd say it's quite easy to get way too much tube sound, but just the right amount and kind is a more nuanced discussion. And as a guitarist also, I consider tube preamp sound and tube power stages rather different things -- the former is good for overt distortion but the latter is the real tone sweetener.
Many years ago I had a fisher
Studio standard amp 4 - 7591
12ax7 & 12au7 tubes .and a set of 3 way electro voice 16
Ohm speakers .
I played in a band and know all about the tube sound for instrument amps. I have heard some very nice tube stereo amps, but do not think I am ready to delve into that realm, given my experience with the tube pre-amp on my Ampeg B200 R. I like the sound on my newly refurbished Pioneer SX-650.
I get it! Thanks for the comment!
What’s the group’s take on tube hybrid amplifiers? i.e. tube preamp stage with a solid state power amp stage? I’ve seen the available for low bucks.
Carver solid state equipment was specifically engineered to have tubelike warmth with the added advantage of massive power and headroom. People crap all over his gear though and dismiss it as gimmicky, dismiss the man himself by derogatorily nicknaming him "Sideshow Bob". All because he endeavored to create gear that 1) was lightweight, remember in the day if you wanted 100W it was 100lbs. 2) able to deliver gobs of current in a instant 3) didn't cost a year's salary 4) didn't sit there and waste power at idle, and ran cool. This gear is detailed as anything else, low noise floor, and can run 2 ohm speakers with ease (not recommended though).
People can make fun of him and his stuff all day long but just go look at the prices that are now being asked for Carver pieces that are not even working. It's crazy. The truth is there are legions who love Carver gear, so all those negative ass hole corksniffing audiofools can take their stupid opinions and shove them straight up where the sun don't shine.
For my part I need big watts. I refuse to pay $25k for 12 watts per channel into 8 ohms. Also not buying Class D. My solution is Carver M500-t serviced with the Nelion Audio Mark II upgrade which gives me 395 wpc into 8 ohms and sounds warm and beautiful. It's a cool looking piece of gear also so there's that. At the end of the day it's the music I'm trying to enjoy not the gear.
Carver made incredible gear. Never heard anyone knock on it. That's news to me.
@@skylabsaudio I’m surprised you’ve never seen the Carver hate. It’s front & center on basically any audio forum on the internet.
I'll knock it then. "Sideshow Bob" was as much a carnival huckster as he was an audio designer. "Magnetic Field Power Amp". Sounds better than "Cheap unregulated SMPS in an tiny amp with lots of output devices & no heatsinks", doesn't it?😉
200 "paper" watts per channel. Maybe 20 REAL ones! I once met a guy who was driving original QUAD ESL's, which have no protection circuit built-in like the later QUAD's, happily & SAFELY running the GUTLESS WONDER into them! For several years!!!😳🤯
He was a small-ensemble/baroque classical music listener, so the utter & complete lack of bass the amp produced into them (the thinnest sound I've EVER heard from a pair of QUAD's!) didn't seem to faze him at all.
"Sounds like tubes"? If you're deaf in both ears, sure.
"t" for "transfer function". Hence, by duplicating the transfer function of a lousy funky high-power conrad-johnson Premier power amp, he claims that he can make his decidedly mediocre (in every way) power amps sound "exactly"🤨 like a Toob amp! Anybody here even know what a transfer function is???🤔
Just a fancy word for the phase shift/frequency response of a circuit; which even the biggest audio dummy knows has almost NOTHING to do with predicting the outcome of the sound of an analog circuit!
All the Carver amps I've ever heard, including the CRAP he designed for Fuzz Linear (ok, "Phase Linear"...) sound like 💩. At least the early exploding Fuzz Linear stuff was built substantially & didn't sound tinny like his tinny Carver stuff does.
If you like Carver, then there's a NAD or PS Audio Class D amp that's got your name all over it. Enjoy!😑
@@joerosen5464 LOL all that? Seek help
Yes,....It's about the music.
Sir you got my attention well said I got an Eico Pre amp that has been stored for years do you think I should restored the unit right now my Marantz 2265B is at just Audio for service and repair.
Go for it!
I think the part that has me most interested in tubes (which i wasn't totally cognizant of before watching this video) would be the simple design and simple maintenance. I love this hobby but for me, I just want something that I can settle on and live with for many, many years to come. (edit: that I can then service and maintain myself).
Old tube gear is not easy to service IMO, the component leads are often wire- wrapped around/with various other things and they really believed in a solid mechanical connection back then. Sure, it's point to point, but when the thing you need to remove is the 3rd thing in a stack of other things that were all soldering in w/no intent to ever be removed it is not fun. Next, you have the fact that most of them used those multi-capacitor cans that you either get to pay a premium to replace, take your time to gut and re-stuff, or wire under the chassis when possible, and of course, the high voltage. It could be there's some trick to removing all those wire-wrapped leads without, for instance, melting the tube socket that I simply don't know, and maybe you're a pro at that, but I find it much easier to work on SS equipment and TBH I don't (at this point, anyway) prefer the warmth or airiness of tube gear to plenty of clean headroom in a SS amp.
If you have basic electronics knowledge (the ability to identify the components, read & measure their values, & be able to follow a schematic diagram) & have a good soldering iron, it should be a breeze.
I highly recommend having access to a good tube tester if you can't find or justify the purchase for yourself. It boggles my mind how many "Toob Boobs" drop thousands of dollars on their amplification & then whine about spending a couple of hundred bucks every other year to keep the gear sounding like what they paid for!🤪🙄🤨
Guessing the condition of your tubes just adds unnecessary "tube anxiety" everytime their systems sound a bit "off" to them. Some of these 🤡s, too many IMHO, spend hundreds or thousands on precious vintage NOS Valves & then pitch 'em in the trash without testing them, because they didn't something stupid like spray too much De-Oxit on something or didn't realize that the real sonic problem came from their new kilobuck power line Shampoo & Conditioner which they never bothered to properly A/B, etc. etc.
People! Please! Don't be one of them!😬
My Fisher KX200 just went to the shop now I’m waiting anxiously to hear what it’s going to cost. I been thinking about the Chinese Oldchen 34 what’s your opinion on them?
It's not for everyone, but there are tube amplifier chassis within the older Hi Fi console stereo systems that everyone had in their living rooms back in the 60s - 70s. They range in power and design of course, I have seen some nice push pull Motorola and Magnavox stuff online come out of these monster cabinets. Mine is a bit more on the modest side, it's under 2 W per side, but it looks pretty funky and sounds really good. Definitely tube sound.
Hit up the garage sales and thrift stores and of course online and you can still find 'em. Mine was free, the guy just wanted it out of his basement. It still worked, although I have since replaced the two audio tubes.
Some of those Motorola were biamp with push pull el84 or6v6 on mono bass speaker and single end el84 for left and right.
@@johnstuchlik5828 The original 2.1 before the computer speakers.
Maybe a video could be done about using preamps and/or amplifiers with vintage stereo receivers and the different types of sound that can be achieved with different combinations. Nothing was mentioned here about using tube preamps.
Do you have a recommended switch for your amps for easy back and forth between amps or you have to plug/unplug?
Schitt Vidar 2 with Dynaco Pas M Preamp is a magic combo
I need to find which tube will give me the best 8 to 15 watts. I have tried 300b, El34, El84, Kt66 and long time ago 6550 & Kt88. I am assuming SET is best configuration. Like to hear you suggestions? Thanks!
Sunvalley (one word) and Elekit make some nice kits. Tube gear is high voltage. I feel that it is best to let pros build tube gear for safety reasons.
High voltages don’t just give you a shock - they will stop your heart from beating and you know what happens after that occurs. Sunvalley sells assembled kits and I would guess other brands do as well.
I love the sound of tube gear. It’s not for everyone but check it out.
Love your AU20000 in the background. Got one for sale?
No :(
Elvis must say... Elvis looks pretty awesome in that SkyLabs t-shirt!
I bet it's his favorite shirt! Very dapper, indeed :)
@Skylabs Audio Ding, dang, doo! Elvis needs one in blue suede, dude. Set Elvis up, Kemosabe!
Send an email, I'll hook you up!
I have a "Phonola" 1971 Amp (Philips RH590) for my Aristona 1312 turntable (Philips 312) set up with 2020 Sony bookshelf speakers with kevlar? woofers.
What about vintage tube pre amps? Any available serviced?
Tubes are for guitar amps , both in the studio and live performance where they want the ability to crank up the distortion for special effects. Solid State amps are for listeners in the home who want the sound as intended by the band when it was recorded .Tubes are to use as a space heater on cold Winter days.
Have to respectively disagree. As a guitar player I love my tube Fender Deluxe! As a studio owner/engineer tubes are all over recordings yet today. Also tube emulating VST for DAWs are there also. Revered compressors: Fairchild 607 & Teletronics La2A also tube preamps. Although most engineers are in the box these days we still use tube pres and compressors to get that warm and/or distorted sound. Listen to the clarity of the old EMI recordings made with the REDD tube console. Tubes are great for recording, mixing and playback.
@@GenrelessB But all you are doing is using tube sound in the studio to adjust the sound by introducing some types of distortion be it subtle or more dramatic to get the sound you want on the recording. I am talking about the home listener where using a tube amp will only change the original sound recording for probably the worse. No reason to use a tube amp at home for other than the 'bling" factor. I have been through the so called "audiophile" forums for years and 90% of them wouldn't know a good damping factor from a rock and also swear that spending big money on cables is the way to go and that home tube amps are better than SS.
I think some people get confused by the word distortion.
Hi Kevin! New subscriber here. Love your content and presentation! Almost makes me want to move to Des Moines from California... ;-) Would you mind sharing the title of your intro music, please? Thank you!
Let me get back to you on that. Thanks
Dave Brubeck Time Out on original mono vinyl, tube amplification. Van Halen I on vinyl or cd, solid state amplification.
one option to try is to get a tube pre-amp and run it into a SS amp to try and get the best of both worlds. my current desk-top system consists of using a ChiFi pre-amp connected to the optical out of my 2009 MacBook Pro and a vintage (1996) Cambridge SoundWorks little satellite system .....
After having lots of transistor power amps, SAE , Phase linear , Bryston Sumo class A ,Moon, Classe, my fave is the the VTL ST 150 WITH 6550 TONS OF BASS.
A TUBE pre amp with a good trans power amp is a good balance .
Agree
So what preamp do you use with your "favourite" VTL ST-150 Valve Amp then?😊
@@joerosen5464 Aesthetic Saturn with vintage tubes
I still have the MF tube buffer from 25 yrs ago.
Definitely enhanced the soundstage in certain setups... Not all.
In some, the impact is immediate, the presentation is more airy... The are more space between instruments.
Really depends on the genre n how loud one listens.
I have the Elekit 8600S and 8200 with their associated 8500 pre-amps. If you want to "get that tube sound", build them. Stereophile magazine rates the 8600S as a B, in with tube amps costing tens of thousands of dollars.
This was a great video. My challenge is just the opposite. I listen to music critically 2 to 3 hours a day but since I'm retired and I refuse to watch the tube I stream music the rest of the day. This of course limits tube life so I am looking for solid state amplifiers with a tube like tonality. I will use these amps for the part of day I stream background music.
Buy a Carver TFM series or an M500-t. You will need to have it serviced because it's 35 years old now but you will get your tubelike sound with the added benefit of lots of power, something one does not get with tube gear. Also you can run it all the time with no tubes to replace.
Even taking the extreme that you listen 3 hours a day, EVERY single day of the year, that's only 3x365=1000hrs. per year!
Even the shortest lifespan output valves like a KT-120 (2000hr. rating vs. 3000hrs. for the otherwise identical KT-150) should last you a bare minimum of 2 years. At about $300 a quad, that's $150 per year.
Your preamp valves will last a bare minimum of 3000hrs. as well, & 10,000+hrs. isn't untypical with 12AU7's & 6SN7's. So let's say that your Valve upkeep costs amount to $200/yr.
So now you want to spend gob 👃 how much 🤑💰🤑💰 to buy a trans-zipster amp with "tube-like" tonality? How much have you budgeted for that? Enough to pay for your current valve replacement schedule for the next 3 years? 5 years? More??? And what will you get? Tube "LIKE" sound. IF you can find something that isn't a joke sonically by comparison!
Good luck!🍀
Because NO trans-zipster amp sounds like a valve amp. NONE. Although for $150,000 for a pair of Soulution 711's & a matching line stage (phono stage a mere $25-30k extra) you can get what I think is the absolute closest I've ever heard transistor amplification sound like GOOD valves!
If by "background" listening you mean outside the range of direct sound, like waaaay off-axis and/or in an adjacent room; and maybe at very low volume, then maybe your choice of amplifier isn't even important at all.🤔
But maybe you're just getting a bit bored of looking at the same glowing gear, & the Racoon in you is craving some new shinier stuff?😏
@@joerosen5464 2920 hours a year, 8 x 365. I have tube equipment simply pointing out everyone doesn’t fit into the 3 hours a day plan.
you didn't mention hybrid amps like the McIntosh MC 901 and are they the best of both world's ?
Would you care to do a video about modern tubes vs NOS vintage tubes? What are your thoughts on HH Scott, and later tube amps, like Conrad-Johnson? I have a Fisher X-101 myself, $10 at the flea market, and a HH Scott LK-48, $18 at Goodwill. I am not a metal person. In the 80s, I was more into punk, and post-punk, which sound great on the Scott. For other genres I use the Fisher. I don't listen to radio, so I prefer a stand alone amp, rather than a receiver.
Nice video but one glaring error- you show a Fisher 800c receiver labeled in the caption as a Fisher 400
Been through a lot of stereo ‘valve’ amps which says a lot - I love the sound to start with, but the shortcomings are evident with prolonged use. So, I go back to solid state and the shortcomings are evident after prolonged use and vice versa. Solid state stays longer though. I’m now on class d and have been for a while with no plans to change it.
I have yet to experience a quality Class D. I know they are out there, just haven't crossed my path yet.
@@skylabsaudio Try Technics
Class D: 💩😝😝😝. NO THANKS.
@@joerosen5464 Unless you’re of the ‘look at me I’m different’ cult of the obscurist mentality there won’t be another option soon. There will remain some niche items, such as valves but the build will be more and more small scale, low development resource, high price as manufacturers realise their offerings are outperformed by and uncompetitive against the latest generic mass produced class d modules. Either that or take from the ever diminishing stock of vintage gear.
What you are saying is no thanks to any sensible, affordable, sustainable and progress orientated hobby.
I think rock, blues and metal sound fantastic on tube amps. Tubes colour the sound, just a fact. Solid state is transparent. I kinda have the opposite preference to you w.r.t. what sounds good on what. Rock and metal was all created on tube amps. No surprise it sounds great on a stereo tube amp.
Off on a side note, I also play guitar, bass and drums. I have 3 guitar amps, all are tube amps. I've tried Mullard, Tung Sol and so on and the truth is they all sound the same. The NOS seem better made and last longer but that's about it. There are a few examples and personal experiences that got fixed by old Brimand tubes, I was surprised. But for the most part, tubes generally don't matter.
With stereo tube equipment different tubes matter even less as you never intentionally push the gain to the point that you get get clipping and distortion. Sure, pushing the tubes hard sounds great and a hint of distortion sounds great. But it distorts everything which just sounds duff.
But these silly tube amps that don't heat the tubes till they get hot are gimmicks. I think folks are buying a dream when they get portable tube amp things for their phones and mp3 players. To push a tube, it takes power and high voltage. You don't get that from a few batteries or a USB cable.
American made tubes being made again, really? That truly is good news! I'm not going to hold my breath but seriously good news. That just made my day.
Question - what is tbe difference between 3 Fischer 400 and 500b?
Lots of really good info on the net that breaks those down.
For this price, I will start re using my Audible Illusion Preamp and screw it. All tubes and a complete pre amp. With what I save I take a trip to Europe.
Hello Sir.. what do you think about Fisher 500C ? Thanks
One of the all time best, IMO
@Skylabs Audio thank you Sir.. what price range will be good to buy.. there is one in local but seller hasn't told me about pricing yet.. it needs a little work.. thanks
solid state for me
I've been using a Fisher 400 for about 25 years, got it for free as it needed work and tubes were not the thing they are now. Glad to see someone picked up making the 7868, when I got the unit they were not available, picked up 3 NOS as spares at the time. Still have all three spares as I'm still using the tubes that came with it. If you are not pushing the amp really hard they will last a long time. I would note that the bias circuitry for the output tubes is crap, with the selenium rectifier it is all over the place. Mind you this might not be true of later units, mine is early, with the tube tuning indicator. The output tube bias was also set very high, which can be hard on both the tubes and transformers. I biased mine down toward the bottom of the recommended range, everything runs much cooler, and clearly has lasted a long time. So for anyone thinking of getting one of these have someone who knows what they are doing check the output bias, and adjust if required.
I have a 400 like yours and it still has the original tubes in it. A thrift shop find for $30.
I have no problem with Solid State gear... BUT I find it funny that half of the SS gear is trying to sound like a tube.
Hobby? You mean obsession. Thats a great picture of Pink Floyd. Here's the debate: Tube amp w/ solid state pre-amp vs. Solid state amp w/ tube pre amp. Also, it really depends on a few variables. What type of music you listen to, what speakers you're using and what you're using as a front end.
Tubes can make natural musical distortion (even harmonics). It can sound awesome for certain music. You can emulate it using DSP without the disadvantages of L/R differences, thermal dependencies and overall tube degradation. Now with digital music streaming dominating, it would be nice if someone could make a DSP tube emulator that allows tweaking to your preference. Some might say that real tube sound is only feasible with real tubes, but I would argue there is no reason why a DSP emulation can't be even better than the real tube sound as it can be much better tweaked to track signal amplification like a tube without any tube negatives.
It'll just have all the DSP negatives instead.😑
@@joerosen5464 What are the DSP negatives?
A truly good tube amp and a comparably good solid state amp Should sound EXACTLY THE SAME.
Of course they don't because both have minor defects.
Thus the choice needs to be made as to which kinds of defects You better tolerate.
OTL kits from Transcendent Sound are the best amplification I've owned and that includes the Class A, MOSFET output stage, Lang amp, published in the Audio Amateur that I built from circuit boards sans instruction. I employed 375,000uf double bypassed capacitance in the output stage PS, Caddock metal film Resistors in TO 220 packages on the Source of the MOSFETs, multitiered power supplies with 4 Toroids per stereo amp. Vishay aerospace Resistors in the signal path along with polystyrene MIT caps. Bias current was 4 Amps. My first TS OTL kit, the T-16 monoblocks, Class AB, with low noise option, employing 16/channel, Soviet era, 6S 19PV (russian designation) 6C19PI ( American designation) miniature triodes, originally built for Voltage regulation in Soviet military avionics with 5000 hr lifespan minimum.
The parts are nothing special, generic circuit elements. But the sound has a transparent delicacy on the top and bottom end slam that was superior to my version of the Lang. Sound stage was better, but the timbrel accuracy was what blew me away. Replacement cost for the tubes from the Russian based Tubes-store, was $2.05 per shipped. I bought 320 and have yet to replace a single one.