Information in Fighting Games (and how to use it)

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  • Опубліковано 19 вер 2024
  • Twitter: / romoolla
    Twitch: / romolla

КОМЕНТАРІ • 36

  • @GriFFonRec4
    @GriFFonRec4 2 роки тому +36

    I'm definitely a slow defensive player. I've played GG for for like a decade super casually until Xrd came out (I had Isuka and me and my cousin would literally main the entire cast, whatever was fun at the time), then I tried to learn it over the course of it's life, but again, very casually. I never really got past the execution phase of the game, just trying to get combos right was hard and playing people/bots while doing it was literally impossible for me. I didn't understand fighting games until playing SFV and watching some HiFight videos, particularly the one with that game he made, Footsies. When I started playing Strive, I really focused on some of the core fundamentals while playing in the beta and it felt really good. I played May, so the execution was the LAST thing on my mind at the time (once i learned a corner wall break combo I kinda called it a day), and went in and just played a bunch of people and felt like I was laying pretty good, win or lose.
    Good story right? If it ended there, maybe I would feel more confident about my play, but ... Anyways, flash forward to now, and now I feel like I kind of missed the bus to becoming good at the game. Like I said, I was a slow defensive player and if players were the type like in the video, I could fair pretty well by just recognizing that they are doing cap shit and punish it accordingly. I'm pretty decent on capitalizing on mistakes I think. But when I fight decent people, I just get destroyed. They will just throw me over and over and when I jump they will catch it and I guess I never really learned the power of back dash because I usually just straight up get hit when I go for it. Me doing nothing in a lot of situations tells THEM that they can run all the shit they want as long as they don't do anything super unsafe. Now, I say I'm a defensive player, but my defense is probably very bad. I can block out regular strings and know when to take my turn back and how. That is how I do offense and I know what works against it for that reason. Now players who do resets and tick throws and jump catches, just run me over. It's not like I cannot do it, but it always feels so bad when I do it. Like I try to reset and they just mash and/or throw and now I'm in the corner. Maybe I get 1 tick throw, but they will counter the next attempt. I attempt a lot of frame traps but they just block that normally as it's my most used option (being the safest) but it also ends my turn immediately. Basically from my perspective, as a defensive player, against better players than me they get to just run their shit and I have to hold it. I'll block a pretty good amount of it, but they will EVENTUALLY open me up because I'm not that great at defensive play and they have so many chances to try. When I finally get their back to the wall with what feels like 10 reads in neutral, I get 1 turn to frame trap, they block and now they are still in the corner but then they just stun dipper or run up back throw (that's the true 50/50 lol), or just hit HS and counter hit when I try to go for delay HS or something.
    I say I missed the bus because I literally never got into the dolphin spam when it was good or whatever so I literally don't know why people think it's so good. I use dolphins every once in a while and I get decent rewards of it (particularly off counter hits) but I also get punished for it when I get too predictable with them, which causes me to use them less overall. Basically, I feel like if I had just went ham in the beginning of the game and did all the unsafe but good stuff and got celestial off cap shit, THEN watched this video or any of Deb's content in general and learned to temper that aggression I would be a better player than I am now. Now I look at cap shit and think, well, it doesn't work against good players and the conversation ends there. I fully understand that the option to go ham is a good option to pull out, particularly once you can layer it in with smart play so that your opponents have to worry about it, since usually it is strong in some ways, but I don't even know what that stuff is anymore nor do I have the practice of just "BEING the problem" instead of always answering other peoples problems. I wanna be that guy who takes a round off Hotashi doing cap shit, but then he schools me with a 3-0 and gives me that hard advice that I needed all along, but I can't even get Celestial to stand in the same place as good players. I feel like I'm always answering other peoples problems, and I'm not too smart at the game (I need to have someone else give me the answer like in videos like this), so it can feel frustrating just banging my head against a wall.
    At the end, I'm a very casual player. I played like 100+ hours when the game came out, then played other games and fell off for a month, then came back when GL dropped, then fell off for a few months and now I'm on my resurgence and am going hard again. I can't expect to be good when I don't play all the time. I'm probably going to take a break when Elden Ring comes out too. I guess I just kinda wish that it was easy. But then again, if it was easy, then it wouldn't be worth doing, and I know that, I just wish it was easy for me lol. My mentality is, I watch all this content and really try and soak it in, but then I get on and lose to the cap shit, which to be fair, I am getting better at punishing (as I said above). But then I almost feel like I'm helping my opponent to no benefit because then they stop doing the cap shit, but their offense is still pretty decent and I feel like I'm on the back foot again.
    Anyways I said a lot, tldr is I'm down bad and my mental is shot. I probably should rethink posting this comment at this point, but I wrote a lot and now I want to keep it. Typically my free time is shared between GGST and Overwatch nowadays, but as a support player who always blames his team (I know it's never their fault, if I was better I'd carry myself out of high gold/low plat), I cannot do that in a fighting game. As Hotashi likes to say "There is more work to be done." I just have to try and have fun along the way right?

    • @dcdusty33
      @dcdusty33 2 роки тому +3

      I can't say I've been in the exact same spot as you, I've definitely had to come at it from the perspective of starting overly aggressive and tempering it over time, but one thing that I've found worked wonders for forcing my perspective to shift and learn new skills I didn't do before is to just try to do something *really* different. Like new character or new game different. Like just try picking up someone super beligerant for a week or so and just fuck around doing really dumb shit. Pick Leo or Sol and do like run up DP or whatever. Reversal Wild Throw on your wakeup or do raw crossthrough in neutral. You're gonna lose a lot but the context switch will give you a good new starting point for learning those sorts of skills and you'll hopefully start to get a sense for where they're good and the sort of decisions your opponent tends to make when they see that you do shit like that.
      Another thing to consider is that when your opponent sees you go for something, even if it fails that's data. Like a sort of good rule of thumb for how a decently skilled player is going to act that you can follow in absence of any deeper mindgame is that if they see you fail to do something on your first attempt of it in a round, they probably think you won't go for it again. And like yeah if they hit you out of a throw that sucks, but you'll get another turn eventually and they're probably not going to mash the second one. The correlary to this is if your first attempt *works*, they'll probably think you're going to go for it again even if the second one doesn't.
      Finally, it sounds like you're mostly playing online and that's great, it's really good that you just jumped into matches and didn't worry about combos, which is a whole other conversation. But it might be good for you to just like, try to hit someone up for a longer set where they can give feedback. TBH I'd probably be down if you asked. I don't play specifically Strive that much but I know enough about the game and fighting games in general that I can usually give advice to newer players. IMHO a failing of larger fighting games for intermediate-ish players is that it's a lot harder to ask someone strong for a long set. But again, different conversation.
      Also if I just ended up repeating any advice from the video gomen, I was about to put it on but your comment grabbed my eye.

    • @GriFFonRec4
      @GriFFonRec4 2 роки тому +2

      @@dcdusty33 Good looks. I picked up Leo and then Ky a while ago. Both I used to hate fighting in Xrd and are actually really cool in this game. Leo was from watching Sonicfox pop off and Ky just has the swag and also Kizzie/Flash made me really want to practice some combos with him. All in all, when I play a different character, I can learn their combos pretty easily, but they feel so foreign when it comes to neutral that I can never get off the combos that I learn lol. I'm mostly talking about Ky, as when I play Leo I can do his ignorant stuff pretty easily, but ultimately I had my fun with him and I'm pretty done playing him, though I want to continue with Ky at some point. I'll even say that I like fighting Leo now that I have a day 2 Leo as a base. I know what his options are and even though I still get opened up like a bad of popcorn whenever he does the cross up, I never really get frustrated because I know that it's just my fault for being slow to react (and that he placed it in a spot I didn't expect). Still don't like fighting Ky players, but that's probably just jealousy at that point. I don't get opened up by him, I just get out footsied at every interaction it feels like, but again, that's just me playing bad.
      Continuing on, I do think I need to work on my analysis on whether an option is good or not. Like you said, if they counter it, they might think I won't go for it again, which may open them up to it for a "turn." Showing that I'm willing to do the option again keeps them on their toes, and if I counter the counter then I can get a good pay out for that. And of course, that is the basis of Dolphin RPS, which has eluded my all this time, as sometimes I get that counter to the counter hit, but ultimately I don't think too hard about it, so even though it was definitely a win, I don't treat it as such. Ultimately I need to work on my mid match assessment of what is going on to make it less random. When I play against my friends (who like me are very casual, but probably play less than I do), the games feel very regimented because we know what each other like to go for. The RPS is different because the situations that arise are so similar to the other hundreds of times it's happened before. I tend to win more games against them, but it's purely because I am more consistent with my big damage conversions when I do guess right and read what they were going to do.
      To your next point, maybe I'll try playing in the park, or joining a player match room and see if I can get longer sets there. Not sure I'd want to put my PSN or Steam name in a YT comment but if you have a way to privately share yours, I'll add you.
      Thank you very much for your well thought out reply. I said a lot, but ultimately I was just whining. Taking the care to read and respond in such a way makes you the real hero in the fgc!

    • @JanusIIV
      @JanusIIV 2 роки тому +4

      First off, you sound like you've done a shitton of introspection and growth to get to this point. Honestly, you sound like you've hit the plateau that most good defensive players hit: you lose to good offensive players (because they've already how to crack the nut, and restrain their wildest urges). So, y'know, good shit! You're a good defensive player! Take a deep breath and enjoy the smell of the game because, no shit, you are unbeatable to a HUGE subset of the playerbase. Don't beat yourself up too bad about not getting things, fighting games are really big on legacy skill (mentality, planning, playstyle, dealing with opponent playstyles) and a lot of the best players have been playing this stuff for years. If you're like me when this happened - you're running into a problem of being too cerebral about how the game works, and playing the game like chess instead of the high-speed Rock-Paper-Scissors simulator fighting games really are.
      Frametraps, solid blocking, tick throws are all solid options but the short version is that this is playing level-1 Rock-Paper-Scissors. Your opponent's want to press buttons, all these options beat pressing buttons. You have excellently mastered Paper, and all Rock throwers get blown up. But Scissors? That's a dark art. The thing about all the things I just listed is that they're...basically meta-fighting game options? They beat Rock because somebody looked at the properties of Rock, and constructed the perfect pulp-based counters to that shit. But imagine you have to play best-of-1 RPS against someone you've never met before. This is the RPS World Championships, with a million dollars on the line. Do you throw Rock? Everybody throws Rock, maybe you should go Paper. But what if they know that and go Scissors? In fighting games, this is something people who approach it from a defensive mindset often run into because they sort of fall into thinking about things you should/shouldn't do, but it's Rock-Paper-Scissors: sometimes, you need to throw Rock three times because they won't see it coming.
      When you're defending, sometimes you need to mash DP or 6P because goddamn it, Daisuke gave you invuln and you're gonna use it. When you're on offense, sometimes you do 2K run up throw because "fuck this guy's blocking, I'm gonna send a message". Instead of always doing your blockstring to get a safe -1, sometimes you do the first hit or two, verify they aren't getting combo'd and just...stop. Take the -4 because they aren't expecting it. Hold back to see if they mash out. Nothing? Press fS or whatever your good poke is because hey, that guy just let you steal some momentum. It's actually really simple once you get it but intuitively feels bad because it's against the stuff you've done up to this point. It can be helpful to switch to another character just to force yourself out of your normal habits and thinking, so you can actively try and be more...varied. Dice-rolley. (You're not trying to be more unsafe specifically, just do things that are higher risk and higher reward)
      P.S. Offense in Strive IMO is kinda...wack, honestly, because for most of the cast it's just Strike/Throw and rewards on Throw are "you get to do Strike/Throw again! Yay!" But if you have 50% Tension to RC, then just establishing something like fS (frametrap) 5H Special/fS dash up throw/fS (wait) can actually be very, very effective (unless you have a shitty fS; you might need a different string depending on your character). Try recording the three options in training mode and defending against it 10 times in a row, you'll see what I mean. It's much harder to defend against consistently than you'd think.

    • @Fopwn
      @Fopwn 2 роки тому +1

      What these guys said. I also think extended breaks help if you get emotional every time you play. You overthink things like me, but it sounds like you're getting there on a lot of topics. You get the most mentally overwhelmed when you're in the middle of the learning curve.

  • @deadfr0g
    @deadfr0g 2 роки тому +15

    Heh. Gathering information, you say?
    **activates Twelve’s invisibility**
    **loses**

    • @Jirudoggu
      @Jirudoggu 2 роки тому +3

      If I can't see what I'm doing, no one can

    • @deadfr0g
      @deadfr0g 2 роки тому +2

      @@Jirudoggu The blind beating the blind.

  • @LordTempest
    @LordTempest 2 роки тому +18

    Hell yeah more big brain FGC tips

  • @Breeze06
    @Breeze06 2 роки тому +7

    Forget the clock for a second, Michael. What kind of player am I? Am I an offensive man or a defensive man? That's right; I'm neither. *I play my opponent.* If he likes to attack, I force him to defend himself.If hes a cautious man, I draw him into dangerous waters. See, you get so frustrated playing defensive positions...you make stupid moves you'd never make if you were thinkin'. When you come here, boy, check that sh*t at the door. - Samuel L. Jackson in 1994's Fresh

  • @VoidEternal
    @VoidEternal 2 роки тому +6

    It's the episode in YuGiOh when each player is endlessly trapping their opponents trap card until one of them literally fucking dies.

  • @TheyCallMeContra
    @TheyCallMeContra 2 роки тому +5

    7:51 made me actually LOL
    also this is a really great and informative guide, as a high-aggression player who just kinda throws out what I think will be funny

  • @BurningWaterpark
    @BurningWaterpark 2 роки тому +3

    It's so crazy how the main idea is that adapting defensively is the wave, and just today, I had an epiphany mid game that I need to slow down and play more defensively

  • @rin-senpai7115
    @rin-senpai7115 2 роки тому +3

    Adapting quickly is an art in itself. People for example DP on their first wake-up (ignoring risk/reward), are they always gonna do it or are they faking out to be like that to get out of pressure more often for free? The answer lies probably ni how they play in other situations, so I can decide if they're a generally risky player or just trying to fool me, but it's hard in the heat of a match.

  • @barrybeakdriver
    @barrybeakdriver 2 роки тому +2

    Professor Romolla is one of the best things to come to the FGC

  • @kapralwojtek9278
    @kapralwojtek9278 2 роки тому +2

    Understanding the concept of learning by doing nothing definitely makes a huge difference in improving as a player.
    I recently started playing BBCF online a few weeks ago. Although beforehand I had done all the game and character tutorials, did some combo challenges, etc., I of course knew it wouldn't keep me from getting rolled once I went online. I'd get counter-hit almost all the time because I was just throwing out buttons. It's an extremly aggressive game after all. But once I started to play more defensively and just block or wait to see what my opponent does, that's when I started to feel like I was improving. The handful of matches I've won in BBCF so far were due to me being patient, which coaxed opponents into approaching more aggressively and more likely to choose risky options I could punish.

  • @BigNeppy
    @BigNeppy 2 роки тому +1

    your content has been fire lately, keep up the good shit

  • @cat3rdcaraccident726
    @cat3rdcaraccident726 2 роки тому

    That thumbnail is a work of art.

  • @lucasharrison6389
    @lucasharrison6389 2 роки тому +3

    Really good information that can apply to most (if not all fighting games) I just wish I could apply these concepts when I actually play fighting games. Haven't played strive yet but I hope to do so sometime soon. My problem is that I tend to forget these things when I'm in an actual match, Guilty Gear or otherwise.

  • @kpcanada6286
    @kpcanada6286 2 роки тому

    Another day, another lesson from Sensei DEB

  • @ZenGaijin
    @ZenGaijin 2 роки тому +3

    i gotta listen to this episode again but iI always had the problem of when i hear people talk it just becomes jumbles of words. I learn best in hands on or visual situations. So i need to see the lesson for it to fully click with me or i have to break the lesson down piece by piece and learn in smaller chunks. That being said, imma study this vid and try and use it to adjust my playstyle

    • @blacknerdtalks7921
      @blacknerdtalks7921 2 роки тому +1

      Think more towards learning and observing your opponent, ei they always do wake up DP/super. Rather than just trying to win, people who play a certain way have certain habits.
      Learning the habits make it easier to beat them. Does that help?

  • @hadriennogueira3726
    @hadriennogueira3726 2 роки тому

    That hotashi impression was cute lol

  • @nkirmath8621
    @nkirmath8621 2 роки тому

    Blocking all the way to 100 risk sounds like a norm when fighting against happy chaos.

  • @absoul112
    @absoul112 2 роки тому +1

    "I got a PhD in being a cow"

  • @kahsaiharmon15
    @kahsaiharmon15 2 роки тому

    Romolla the next K'

  • @osaka199
    @osaka199 2 роки тому +1

    "Romolla bolding text is like when badlands brings multiple boots" I am dead and can't extract any more information of this video 😔😔

  • @moirasandwich785
    @moirasandwich785 2 роки тому

    Honestly I have a ton of fun just going ham even if I lose horribly lol

  • @terrywong7677
    @terrywong7677 2 роки тому +2

    glasses wsshew count: 3

  • @mikejonesnoreally
    @mikejonesnoreally Рік тому

    @ 5:23 So if i want you to play defensively all i have to do is just rando special moves and unsafe stuff? o.O

  • @mabroum
    @mabroum 2 роки тому

    throw rock!

  • @macgillivray2825
    @macgillivray2825 2 роки тому +1

    jokes on you I have the information capacity of a 2 year old why do you think there are so many potemkin players

  • @jerometolentino1678
    @jerometolentino1678 2 роки тому

    like for thumb

  • @kahsaiharmon15
    @kahsaiharmon15 2 роки тому

    Algorithm comment