Sometimes I feel like I’m the only one who liked Logan. Unlike the others, he cared about John’s philosophy. He knew he couldn’t just straight up kill the wrong-doers for what they did. He had to give Halloran’s failures a chance for freedom and redemption, unlike Amanda or Hoffman who either used traps to kill people with no escape or making clues cryptic.
Logan is definitely my favorite apprentice, Idk out of all the others he just seems like he is the most likable person and I agree that he seems to be the most faithful when it comes to jigsaw’s philosophy.
I don't want to see Logan and Lawrence fight. I want them to become an unstoppable Jigsaw team. I want Gordon to finish Nelson's rehabilitation with a kind of "healing takes time and you've had a lot of it" deal. Twice the brains, add the brawn to the experience and they'd be unstoppable. Plus they're both fathers. They'd probably bond over making a better world for their kids
I LOVE THIS IDEA!!! It's brilliant, this should be one of the premises of a new Saw movie. I haven't seen spiral yet so I don't know if this is one of the premises in that movie but yeah.
Can’t see this happening. Before Jigsaw, Lawrence was the last apprentice standing. Don’t think he would be pleased to know there’s another one out there.
"...but luckily, John realized he didn't have a fair chance, and didn't want him dying over an honest mistake..." Ironic how that's the same reason Logan got into the game in the first place. His salvation mirror's Jigsaw's condemnation by his tumor being found late, both things caused by "honest mistakes".
what was the mistake John did that after tried to rescue him? And did John know that Logan accidentely switched labels on john? Wasnt John supposed to be mad at him for this? Or he didn't know/care?
@@will-wowdk1930 I think the "honest mistake" was too high dosage of tranquilzer used on Logan. He didn't wake up while Jigsaw was talking, while he was pulled across the floor, and he barely managed to wake up to be cut up, and since Jigsaw believes that all trap victims "should have a chance" he rescued Logan, and since Logan know knew his identity he couldn't really put him in next trap
I would like to see Amanda Young's timeline; I still find it so funny how even though she was the first Jigsaw apprentice revealed to the public, she actually was one of the last to join his cause. Bonus points if you add-in the fact that she's now the embodiment of the Saw franchise in Dead by Daylight is therefore kind of the last Jigsaw apprentice still active, even after death.
Logan seems like the disciple who was the closest to what John wanted. I wanted more for him but also think it was best we didn't get too much, so they couldn't ruin him lol.
Ironically, I feel like Logan is so true to John’s vision because he was there so early and then left. John himself lost sight of it over time, without realizing or acknowledging. I don’t even know if John would’ve saved Logan if it had been later in his work.
I always liked Logan. The plot twist of him being an apprentice/the main villain I feel was more impactful than Gordon's reveal. I like Gordon's reveal because he was the main protagonist of the first movie and to find out he got recruited after that movie and was participating in all the sequels behind the scenes makes it hit hard. I think with Logan though, it's the fact that the reveal happened within the same movie along with the reveal overall being on a greater scale. I say that because while Gordon getting revealed as an accomplice is big, having your main protagonist get revealed as both the very first secret accomplice along with him being the true main villain and new Jigsaw of the movie after spending the whole movie viewing him as a hero is Knights of the Old Republic levels of mind-blowing. Him being responsible for the iconic reverse bear trap also adds to the spectacle.
I don't know about this. For me, although not kinda impressed with Lawrence Gordon's twist being an apprentice, Logan Nelson's being an apprentice didn't top Gordon's. I feel like it's a cliche plot twist considering it was released around 2017 which a lot of movies before already did that "before you, there was me." twist. And also, in Jigsaw movie, there were a lot of plotholes like traps were designed like modernistic but actually made before or during the Saw Timeline and many more.
The audio commentary for Saw 3D (what SAW: The Final Chapter is also called) even says that the two masked goons are the guys in question (Brad and Ryan), so you could argue that information is still canon (though I doubt the two of them are ‘apprentices’ as much as they were mere accomplices to Lawrence Gordon)
@@jcrews8582 to be fair costas mandylor said Hoffman was alive and the commentary said he’s dead so until there’s official confirmation we can’t know for sure if the commentary is cannon
@@jjonahjameson8934 rule 1 of films - if you dont see the death, they aint dead. Just look at the FBI girl who faked her death to trick Hoffman, only to return in the next film
I think it would be cooler if one of the apprentices was Logan, I mean it fits the timeline: in 2006 he finally recovered from ptsd rehabilitation, and in 2007 he helped Gordon to stop Hoffman
@Failingpepper 11 lol! Did you hear about a lady emptying her husband's beer (Corona) in the sink cause she thought it had the Corona Virus? Lol! (I can't remember if I saw it on FB or IG)
Gordon has an easy get out "I escaped and cauterized my wound but passed out from blood loss. When I woke I'd been nursed to health and dumped. I don't know how I got here or where I was held, but in jigsaws mind I passed and he let me go"
It would be awesome to see our boys Logan and Lawrence acting in the same time and scenario, but I don't think anyone besides John knew about Lawrence being a secret helper. It would still be awesome to see both apprentices who have medical knowledge working together (or against each other, who knows).
Fun Fact: It was revealed in an audio commentary that the two disciples with Gordon are Brad and Ryan (the two guys from the Public Execution trap in Saw 3D).
I think it’s easier to fix the timeline. While the first three Saw films came out before 2007, it is canon that the events of all the films happen in 2007! Much easier to cleanup. Jigsaw takes place in 2017, Logan gets placed in the game AFTER he returns from Iraq, so John actually does help him recover.
And why does he kill people and displays them publicly in a way that the people died in the trap he was involved in? Any explenation other than to trick us watching?
19:40 "two unknown apprentices helping him out" Brad and Ryan. Remember the love triangle trap? Those 2 homies are the 2 pig head mask with Dr. Gordon according to the producer commentary.
To be fair, they said it in the producer commentary, that isn't 100% cannon. They could still rewrite that because it was never outspokenly shown or said in one of the movies who the two other pigmasks were in that scene.
It is absolutely naive to believe that all writers throughout the franchise kept track of the previous films. The movies fall drastically apart once you turn on your brain. And thats what makes them enjoyable to me. I watch them as a comedy, since the story has become so ridiculous over the course of 8 films, that there is nothing left to do other than to laugh at it. And Jigsaw was the cherry on the cake. The movie got so ridiculous, me and my friends could not stop laughing. Apparently noone is questioning the fact that there are HD flat TVs in the trap that supposedly takes place before Saw 1 ? LOL HILARIOUS!
bomber9912 Trust me man, the fans have said so much about those flat screens that it doesn’t even matter anymore. We can go even further and say how tf did jigsaw know who was gonna fall in the leg trap that Ryan was in?That prerecorded video said him by name when it was giving the directions and Jigsaw even said that wasn’t his trap. 😂
19:19 to be fair, he says the only known survivors “among Jigsaw’s successors” are Logan and Lawrence. Daniel was never a follower of the teachings of John Kramer, so he does not apply in that sentence.
Those games are called out in the movies. Kramer literally tells her she failed at succeeding him because she didn't care enough about the game she just wanted to kill people
Wait the first game wasnt the one of Dr. Gordon and Adam, as far as I remember there have been many more before that. One with Amanda, one with the fat suicidal guy and also technically the junkie who hit Jill's stomach with the door was the first game.
Honestly nelson and gordon could make a terrifying team I'm counting on at least one of them being either the killer in spiral or have a part to play in some of it
My theory for Logan's backstory was that he served in the military before being put in Kramer's game and he met his wife right before the original series. As a result he decided to end his apprenticeship with Kramer and John was more than okay to allow it knowing his past. As for neither Hoffman, Amanda, or Gordon knowing about him Kramer simply kept Logan a secret in order to allow him to live with his wife in peace
Or John could just kept him a secret like he kept Dr. Gordon a secret in case one of his other apprentices go rogue like Hoffman, alto Hoffman was kinda faithful to John. He's kinda understandably pissed at Jill because she betrayed him and tried to kill him. If you pay attention, Jill rigged bear trap so Hoffman would not be able to win (only like six or seven seconds timer I think), yet it was his quick thinking and I guess sheer will to survive that saved him (by having bear trap stuck between those window bars) and even Jill was caught off guard.
19:41 Gordon would also know about Logan, as Kramer did say in the post mortem tape, "no more secrets", giving him an advantage and possibly any additional disciples out there. some may be able/willing to work with Gordon as well.
Man, again, the way you explain things it's incredible. I can't wait for your next video !! Also, I feel like we have met before and that would be a crazy coincidence !
Is it just me or are @CZsWorld's videos even more entertaining to watch than the movies themselves?!! Watching them definitely enrich the experience of watching any of the movies he covers!
I've been working on a Saw ttrpgs (Dungeons and Dragons like game, but using the forged in the dark system) and videos like this help me to see just how much story telling potential this series has! Keep up the great work!
The count down "then there was ___" is also a reference to the Agatha Christie novel "And Then They Was None" who is both a famous crime novel and the base for the boardgame Clue.
I love your channel so much, you have some of the most informative videos I’ve ever seen. Also, you’ve made me love the movie Jigsaw more and my favorite character out of the whole franchise is Logan Nelson. Keep up the amazing work.
It’s important to remember that with the saw time line that most of the movies took place right after another with not much of a time gap. The longest gap would be between 1 and 2 and saw 3 happened only 6 months after 2. Saw 4, 5, 6 and 7 literally happened only days apart so 10 years could be accurate.
Love the combination of humor and great intelligence in your videos. You don’t just summarize movies and such, you throw your take/opinions/analysis on them. Great content my guy
Nicely done good sir. I truly enjoyed this being a hardcore Saw fan myself, I have a few issues with what you’ve laid out but overall I’m just glad someone else appreciate John Kramer as much as I do haha.
As someone who loves the Saw Series, I appreciate this video so much helping me understand how Jigsaw connects to the other films. Keep on doing your good work!
4:34 I understand this. I am a veteran, and I had a troubled childhood. This darkness we embrace is darker than black. We feel nothing in these moments. We do what needs to be done and think about it long after. It's crazy but it's what we did in order to get our missions done.
Man I just recently started watching your vids and you deserve way more credit than you’re given now. The amount of detail, historical references, plot twists, humor and hypothetical thinking you put into these horror history vids is amazing. As a saw fan myself, I have not seen another channel cover such a complex story line with various videos explaining the franchise history and potential future references like you do. And that all takes tonssss of time, effort, research and knowledge of the actual storyline and it’s characters amongst horror films like saw. Most people look at saw as a gruesome series because of the traps and think no more or care for the complex storyline that has a warped timeline. Along with the other horror films you have covered, and ones you will make videos of in the future, you will gain more views and subscribers. Keep the vids coming man and well done on the content. 👍
love the idea of Gordan v Logan, perhaps 2 events that the police mistakenly identify as 1 that intertwines them. Rather than it being a fight, its almost a partnership that Kramer predicted all along, two medical professionals continue his legacy in the way he wanted
Ironically, I think Logan is truer to John’s vision than others is because he was there so early and left. John himself lost sight of it over time, without acknowledging. I don’t think John would’ve saved Logan from the blades later on.
I appreciate how neatly these videos are put together. Also have you ever tried expanding the little soundtrack you would use for your videos? Just curious.
lol really though. The best explanation is that Logan was saying roughly 10 years ago. A minor mess up from the movie writers but not that big of a deal to me. To others though... it ruined the whole series for them lol they have to chill out
Nelson is aight but the twist was pretty damn extra. it’s the same twist as 2, 4 and 7 - that is, the hidden apprentice that was helping all along. the different timelines twist was also used in 2. Jigsaw didn’t have any original plot points, unfortunately.
I just can't get past the fact that there's NO POINT in recreating the barn trap, an event that I remind you no one knew about and was never discovered.
I’d say the barn game would’ve been for a few reasons 1)he’s testing himself and seeing if he has what it takes to be jigsaw 2) it’s a game he has knowledge of and is the most meaningful to him. Similar to how Gordon left Hoffman in the bathroom because it was the most meaningful Logan could’ve made that game with others cause it was the first game he was in and it’d be the first one he’d make 3)no one knowing about it would help because it would just make people suspect Kramer’s back and not a copy cat cause it’s a new game no one heard about
The earliest known game is actually the razor wire trap. There had to be quite a few others before that though, since Hoffman was the only one fit enough to carry the big man into the trap and sedate him, so there had to be at least a few publicly known even before that for Hoffman to have committed his copycat pendulum trap.
I think what makes the timeline wonky is it's actually 10 years since jigsaw died and in his monologue, Logan just didn't bother with being exactly correct on when it happened. Idk about everyone else, but I find myself doing that all the time. It's currently 2024 and "10 years ago" could be any time between 2002 and 2006 if the exact year doesn't matter to the story.
1:22 words I never thought I'd hear from John Kramer, "John Kramer realized his mistake and didn't want the unfair circumstances to harm Nelson, so he entered the game and intervened to save Nelson from the spinning blades because of the delayed effect of the sedative, because it was John Kramers honest mistake and he realized that Nelson didn't have a fair chance."
I really enjoy your content and how you break down plots and theories of these movies. it's awesome, you got me hooked on the horror history installment. Keep em comin
Anyone other than me noticed the importance of Jigsaw's lesson on 'Forgiveness'? Think about it. he forgave Logan for mixing up John's x-rays, he knew Amanda Young's part in John's and Jill's unborn son's death and forgave her. Both Logan and Amanda John had confronted. John forgave Hoffman for using his serial killer nickname and MO to get away with murder, and he confronted him. Now look at Jeff's part of his and his wife's test. Jeff was forced to face everyone he felt was responsible for his son's death in order to forceo Jeff to decide for himself to forgive. Then there's Tamara's and her son's test of confronting Will who was responsible for the death of Tamara's husband by denying him health insurrance. It was if John was teaching them forgiveness the best way he learned how, by ocnfronting those he could have held responsible or had grudges against. As for the seventh movie Saw 3D if John had any part in wanting to put Bobby, his wiie, best friend, Lawyer, and publisher through the tests, I think it was too see for himself if Bobby really had what it takes to survive. Otherwise I think Hoffman just used the fact Bobbu lied about being a survivor to create a new game to lure police away from Jill so he can kill her. I say this because unlike Hoffman, Bobby wasn't hurting anyone with his lies much less killing anyone. John saw the positive impact on people Bobby's lies hadfor himself the impact of Bobby's lies in the book signing. If John wanted too he could use his knowledge of where Bobby was at and kidnap him and tested Bobby himself that evening after they met face to face.
I hope that Logan and Dr.Gordon wind up working together, ultimately becoming close friends and the jigsaw duo, and Logan is one of the people in the pig mask helping Gordon.
Simple question: Why did he kill people that looked like the real victims and displayed their bodies in the real time? What was the reason for that, when nobody else ever found the bodies before? I mean any other reason than to trick the audience...
Probably to fool the public and detective Halloran that John somehow came back to live and had conducted another game right at that moment and force them to act quickly to stop it. Remember, only Nelson and John knew about the original barn game, so Nelson could easily set it up to make it look like a completely new game. No one knew when exactly Nelson version of the game took place, so he could have just hidden the body. They might have been all dead before Nelson shot Edgar. Only after Edgar was shot did he set everything up into places.
@@markconstance186 So why make them look like the victims in the past, including killing someone to act as himself? Why not just kill some people, and frame the officer and make it not connected to Jigsaw at all? I dont see the reason for that connection other than to artificially create a twist for the viewer that nobody in the movie actually cares about. The ending doesnt make sense either, cause there is going to be an investigation that will discover the barn game. And the "new Jigsaw" - the cop - for some reason put himself in a trap and then died? What? It doesnt make any sense.
@@bomber9912 He could yeah. But if i remember correctly, these victims are connected to Halloran. They are the criminals that Halloran let go when they clearly are guilty, so it proves that Halloran has motivation to put them into the game. As for why he didn’t just kill some people and go through his way to conduct a Saw game, well Nelson said it himself. He doesn’t want to be a murderer like Amanda and Hoffman. He actually want to follow through John philosophy of giving others chance to survive. The new Jigsaw? You know that Hoffman also died as well right? No, Nelson doesn’t need Halloran to be found dead by other people. All he need is evidence to connect him as Jigsaw. Then he could make it so that Halloran has ran far away from home so he won’t be caught. Halloran then would ended up like Hoffman, disappeared without a trace.
@@markconstance186 With the "new Jigsaw" im talkikng about Halloran. Because that was the whole point of the movie. To frame him to be the new Jigsaw killer as you pointed out yourself. I think you dont remember the end of the movie correctly. Nelson made that woman follow him to that location as an aliby. So there is absolutely no way that this place would not be discovered. Even though it should have been already discovered throughout Saw 4-6, since Jigsaws wife was investigated on. But about Logan Nelson being not a murderer... How did he kill the people in real time then? Did they somehow have similar personal histories like the previous victims that would justify the ironic way of their death? And again what about the victim that "replaced" himself that he killed in order to literally just trick the audience? You can try to shift it as you wish, but the whole intention of the movie was to make people believe that the bodies that were discovered were connected to the game that we witnessed. There was never a reason in the movie to kill the guy that was supposed to act as Nelson Logans body.
Logan is my favourite, but in the end I hope they subvert from the who'll be the last one remaining, and both Logan and Gordon to team up. To aid and push one another to do so much more and be able to help one another instead of losing sight of the 'ideal' that Saw/Jigsaw wishes to follow. Don't like Saw's gore, but I love the general story in it. Thank you for letting a squeemish person like me learn it all ^^
My thoughts exactly. I've even come to like Jigsaw quite a lot the more that I study it, but it does have a couple flaws. I'll talk more about it in Saturday's video.
This video hold a wierd place in my timeline. This was the first video of yours I had seen, I was just getting into the franchise and it was the beginning Covid. Three years later and its been one hell of a ride.
Unlike Hoffman and Amanda, Logan was a proper pick for a disciple. I like his character and while the timeline is broken by this movie, I liked the games in it.
Zac, PTSD doesn't lead to sociopathy. Sociopathy develops very early in life, and is commonly correlated with an emotionally traumatic childhood. But PTSD can lead to addiction, which causes people to act as if they don't have remorse, but that's not the same thing. If an addict recovers, they will once again feel remorse, this is because addiction numbs all feelings, the whole point is to escape. Sociopaths do not ever have remorse. Sociopaths also do not seek revenge, they seek benefit and gain, they do not jeopardize themselves for things like a grudge. If they are wronged, they take it as a lesson rather than letting it scar them.
An absolutely amazing breakdown for someone who saw the first 7 movies and nothing else. I thought 1 and 2 were the best since they didn't have too many flashback inserts. Logan is definitely my favorite of the "here all along" sort of characters.
I'd call Nelson an Anti-hero rather than a villain. His victims were criminals, he's more like the Punisher than a straight-up villain. Hoffman was a real villain, he killed indiscriminately to protect himself.
It seems there might be a split between the followers of John, where Nelson focusing on "speaking for the dead" and bringing justice and Gordon focusing on rehabilitating the players, just like in most religion where they are the same, but have diffrent ways practicing it.
I think it would have made more sense that he went to war first, his ptsd and mental issues was why he was relegated to just lower level medical duties like labeling x-rays and so caused the mistake. When Kramer saved him and learned the truth, he forgave him and helped him rebuilt his life and he would have been there behind the scenes for every game since. Eventually he was deemed well enough to become a medical examiner and so we now have Logan, and Doctor Gordon working with Kramer and continuing his work after his death. In the previous Saw Movie we see that there were three figures in the pig masks and Gordon was the only one who revealed himself, supporting the theory that one of the other two is Logan and the third is a character yet to be revealed.
That would be an awesome movie to see. Two unknown apprentices of Jigsaw go at each other in a future film while seeing their backstory relationship with John Kamer, how they each view him as a mentor. I would be down to see a film like that. Thanks for uploading.
Didn’t really like the 2017 twist at all, and honestly the other movies had a nice green tint, trippy camera angles, flashbacks, and made it more scary
You are a very insightful fellow, I have to say I really enjoyed this video, I'll be watching more of your videos. I do hope the Logan character returns
@@WeirdEdz when does it say he doesnt? Thats still a canon thing, the only thing this movie did was say it took too long for the doctors to find it due to the X-Rays being flipped on accident.
Apparently the two unknown helpers of Dr Gordon were the two guys from the trap where the girl was hanging overhead in that public test and she keeps trying to talk them into saving her
I like to think the reason why those two dudes assist Gordon because the traps that they play is designed by him to settle their love triangle. So they kinda grateful for it
when college is cancled ...
horror history got you coverd
great content :)
This is the best class
Word 👏🏼
I see what you did there... "coverd" and covid.
Phoenix 205 i don’t think it’s that deep, pretty sure he just misspelled “covered” accidentally
@@silver7215 she^
Sometimes I feel like I’m the only one who liked Logan. Unlike the others, he cared about John’s philosophy. He knew he couldn’t just straight up kill the wrong-doers for what they did. He had to give Halloran’s failures a chance for freedom and redemption, unlike Amanda or Hoffman who either used traps to kill people with no escape or making clues cryptic.
Exactly.
Almost like Frank Castle with jigsaws knowledge.
For the few scenes I've watched and what I know I do prefer him over others
Logan is definitely my favorite apprentice, Idk out of all the others he just seems like he is the most likable person and I agree that he seems to be the most faithful when it comes to jigsaw’s philosophy.
He’s not really faithful because the lazer trap was inescapable
I don't want to see Logan and Lawrence fight. I want them to become an unstoppable Jigsaw team. I want Gordon to finish Nelson's rehabilitation with a kind of "healing takes time and you've had a lot of it" deal. Twice the brains, add the brawn to the experience and they'd be unstoppable. Plus they're both fathers. They'd probably bond over making a better world for their kids
They just have a talk like
"Hey, so. You like jigsaw. I like jigsaw. How about, get this, we like jigsaw together?"
"Man. Thats a great idea."
They are killers, what are you talking about
@@PearlBagelUwU it's alright so long as they kill the right people.
I LOVE THIS IDEA!!! It's brilliant, this should be one of the premises of a new Saw movie. I haven't seen spiral yet so I don't know if this is one of the premises in that movie but yeah.
Can’t see this happening. Before Jigsaw, Lawrence was the last apprentice standing. Don’t think he would be pleased to know there’s another one out there.
"...but luckily, John realized he didn't have a fair chance, and didn't want him dying over an honest mistake..."
Ironic how that's the same reason Logan got into the game in the first place. His salvation mirror's Jigsaw's condemnation by his tumor being found late, both things caused by "honest mistakes".
That's what I meant. It was Logan's honest mistake that made Jigsaw feel sorry for him.
@@CZsWorld this series and how he uses his “apprentices or helpers” is like chess and I don’t even know how to play but Ik this is it😂😂
what was the mistake John did that after tried to rescue him? And did John know that Logan accidentely switched labels on john? Wasnt John supposed to be mad at him for this? Or he didn't know/care?
@@will-wowdk1930 I think the "honest mistake" was too high dosage of tranquilzer used on Logan. He didn't wake up while Jigsaw was talking, while he was pulled across the floor, and he barely managed to wake up to be cut up, and since Jigsaw believes that all trap victims "should have a chance" he rescued Logan, and since Logan know knew his identity he couldn't really put him in next trap
@@CZsWorld by the way the 2 pig masked people that helped Gordon are Brad and Ryan from the beginning of saw 3d
I like how you show a lot of the facts in these video really show how much you are taking your time in these videos..
He's even wearing Jigsaw's suit. Total dedication.
Definitely shows he does his research
@@katienovota8870 za
I would like to see Amanda Young's timeline; I still find it so funny how even though she was the first Jigsaw apprentice revealed to the public, she actually was one of the last to join his cause. Bonus points if you add-in the fact that she's now the embodiment of the Saw franchise in Dead by Daylight is therefore kind of the last Jigsaw apprentice still active, even after death.
Amanda young is very interesting! it's cool how she's in dead by daylight haha :)
Well logan is sorta alive
I would love to see her come back somehow.
Hell yea Piggy is my favorite killer to play.
Logan and dr. Gordan are both still alive.
Logan seems like the disciple who was the closest to what John wanted. I wanted more for him but also think it was best we didn't get too much, so they couldn't ruin him lol.
I hope Logan Nelson returns in Saw X.
@@kirklynncentore532 Or the other sequels, if we get one, that is.
Ironically, I feel like Logan is so true to John’s vision because he was there so early and then left. John himself lost sight of it over time, without realizing or acknowledging. I don’t even know if John would’ve saved Logan if it had been later in his work.
I always liked Logan. The plot twist of him being an apprentice/the main villain I feel was more impactful than Gordon's reveal. I like Gordon's reveal because he was the main protagonist of the first movie and to find out he got recruited after that movie and was participating in all the sequels behind the scenes makes it hit hard. I think with Logan though, it's the fact that the reveal happened within the same movie along with the reveal overall being on a greater scale. I say that because while Gordon getting revealed as an accomplice is big, having your main protagonist get revealed as both the very first secret accomplice along with him being the true main villain and new Jigsaw of the movie after spending the whole movie viewing him as a hero is Knights of the Old Republic levels of mind-blowing. Him being responsible for the iconic reverse bear trap also adds to the spectacle.
I don't know about this. For me, although not kinda impressed with Lawrence Gordon's twist being an apprentice, Logan Nelson's being an apprentice didn't top Gordon's. I feel like it's a cliche plot twist considering it was released around 2017 which a lot of movies before already did that "before you, there was me." twist. And also, in Jigsaw movie, there were a lot of plotholes like traps were designed like modernistic but actually made before or during the Saw Timeline and many more.
Logan seems pretty calm and down to earth to me
Yeah so true
Like a psychopath?
nobody cares
@@David-kc5bo nope
Sociopath
@@Zanamo nobody cares that you dont care
Dr. Gordon’s 2 “apprentices” were originally written to be the 2 dudes who survived in the love triangle trap from SAW: The Final Chapter
The audio commentary for Saw 3D (what SAW: The Final Chapter is also called) even says that the two masked goons are the guys in question (Brad and Ryan), so you could argue that information is still canon (though I doubt the two of them are ‘apprentices’ as much as they were mere accomplices to Lawrence Gordon)
@@jcrews8582 to be fair costas mandylor said Hoffman was alive and the commentary said he’s dead so until there’s official confirmation we can’t know for sure if the commentary is cannon
@@jjonahjameson8934 rule 1 of films - if you dont see the death, they aint dead. Just look at the FBI girl who faked her death to trick Hoffman, only to return in the next film
@@AzguardMike which means Hoffman would break his foot Eric Matthews style but still locked probably
I think it would be cooler if one of the apprentices was Logan, I mean it fits the timeline: in 2006 he finally recovered from ptsd rehabilitation, and in 2007 he helped Gordon to stop Hoffman
Horror history the best thing to cure m-m-m-my corona
Haha very funny
I'm so fucking happy I'm not the only one making this joke because my husband hates it. 😂😂
This comment literally killed me
@Failingpepper 11 lol! Did you hear about a lady emptying her husband's beer (Corona) in the sink cause she thought it had the Corona Virus? Lol! (I can't remember if I saw it on FB or IG)
I love that song!
Gordon has an easy get out
"I escaped and cauterized my wound but passed out from blood loss.
When I woke I'd been nursed to health and dumped.
I don't know how I got here or where I was held, but in jigsaws mind I passed and he let me go"
His timeline fits if you consider that he blacked out his ptsd years.
When do we get a Complete Horror History of CZ's World?
When the Last Horror Story is Told in Theatres.....
Or you know, whenever CZ decides to take his talents off of Theirtube(fascist current day youtube)
Ahhh when all of us are in quarantined and we have this person....
It would be awesome to see our boys Logan and Lawrence acting in the same time and scenario, but I don't think anyone besides John knew about Lawrence being a secret helper. It would still be awesome to see both apprentices who have medical knowledge working together (or against each other, who knows).
Logan and Lawrence gordon know each other actually(both worked at the same hospital)
Fun Fact: It was revealed in an audio commentary that the two disciples with Gordon are Brad and Ryan (the two guys from the Public Execution trap in Saw 3D).
That’s awesome I never knew that, they’re buds now
Dr gordon: hey guys wanna catch a serial killer?
The bros: ok, why not?
@@shawerful5209 They could call themselves the Three Little Pigs of Jigsaw.
I think it’s easier to fix the timeline. While the first three Saw films came out before 2007, it is canon that the events of all the films happen in 2007! Much easier to cleanup. Jigsaw takes place in 2017, Logan gets placed in the game AFTER he returns from Iraq, so John actually does help him recover.
And why does he kill people and displays them publicly in a way that the people died in the trap he was involved in? Any explenation other than to trick us watching?
Unfortunately it's not that easy. If you look at my Things You Missed in Saw, you'll see that the bathroom game takes place in 2004.
@@CZsWorld jigsaw died in 2007 and theres suppossed to be a year between saw 1 and saw 3. Movie error?
@@Wyszyncygan there's a little over a year between 1 and 3.
And make saw 7 not cannon god I hated that film. No offense if you liked it though
This is the earliest I’ve ever been 😭
Welcome to the 💀🔔 club.
Lol I just put the death bell on
19:40 "two unknown apprentices helping him out" Brad and Ryan. Remember the love triangle trap? Those 2 homies are the 2 pig head mask with Dr. Gordon according to the producer commentary.
To be fair, they said it in the producer commentary, that isn't 100% cannon.
They could still rewrite that because it was never outspokenly shown or said in one of the movies who the two other pigmasks were in that scene.
It is absolutely naive to believe that all writers throughout the franchise kept track of the previous films. The movies fall drastically apart once you turn on your brain. And thats what makes them enjoyable to me. I watch them as a comedy, since the story has become so ridiculous over the course of 8 films, that there is nothing left to do other than to laugh at it. And Jigsaw was the cherry on the cake. The movie got so ridiculous, me and my friends could not stop laughing. Apparently noone is questioning the fact that there are HD flat TVs in the trap that supposedly takes place before Saw 1 ? LOL HILARIOUS!
bomber9912 Trust me man, the fans have said so much about those flat screens that it doesn’t even matter anymore. We can go even further and say how tf did jigsaw know who was gonna fall in the leg trap that Ryan was in?That prerecorded video said him by name when it was giving the directions and Jigsaw even said that wasn’t his trap. 😂
your right it is brad and Ryan the movie says if you watch with the subs on :)
@@veeva99 false. It is confirmed canon.
I’ve been waiting so long for this! Can’t wait to see what your later Saw videos will hold
Who do you want to see next?
CZsWorld hmm, there’s so many people you can choose from. Maybe the other Jigsaw apprentices
@@CZsWorld Definitely Hoffman to me one of if not the most interesting characters in the series
I like this disciple the most since Amanda Young. He kinda reminds me of dexter in some ways.
EXACTLY !!!!!!!! It’s a pretty cool and he is one of my favorite characters of the franchise and he’s underrated. Love Logan nelson
Ngl I don't mind whichever character is covered, I just need the history man, ALL OF IT! Love your content!!
Yea great video man I can’t stop binging our horror history vids !
Enjoy 💀
"Only known survivors are Logan Nelson, and Lawrence Gordon."
Daniel Matthews: am I a joke to you?
He died in Saw V I believe. Head squashed by the ice while testing the black cop.
@@SeviathTheHumanDrago no that was his dad Eric
@@soggysalmon1763 Ah my mistake. Thanks Bub.
@@SeviathTheHumanDrago no problem.
19:19 to be fair, he says the only known survivors “among Jigsaw’s successors” are Logan and Lawrence. Daniel was never a follower of the teachings of John Kramer, so he does not apply in that sentence.
This video did more to convince me of Logan's legitimacy as a Jigsaw apprentice than the movie itself did. And I liked the movie. Loved it!
Love that little ad break thing at 10:25, pretty cool tbh.
I love Logan Nelson’s character so far
The best character in the Saw's franchise.
@@kirklynncentore532hot take dude
Thank you, Cz, for giving clarity to Logan Nelson's timeline and where his story fits in the story of Saw.
Cz you forgot that Amanda made some traps unwinable when you said that Logan had the only game that could not be won
I meant as opposed to Jigsaw's games.
CZsWorld oh okay sorry
Those games are called out in the movies. Kramer literally tells her she failed at succeeding him because she didn't care enough about the game she just wanted to kill people
Damn. Never knew about Logan's big power.
It'll be cool to see him and Lawrence fight each other.
Wait the first game wasnt the one of Dr. Gordon and Adam, as far as I remember there have been many more before that. One with Amanda, one with the fat suicidal guy and also technically the junkie who hit Jill's stomach with the door was the first game.
Yea, also that dude who was in the room filled with glass and the safe and the candle
When school is canceled so you use czsworld to teach your history class.
*horror* history, that is.
Honestly nelson and gordon could make a terrifying team
I'm counting on at least one of them being either the killer in spiral or have a part to play in some of it
My theory for Logan's backstory was that he served in the military before being put in Kramer's game and he met his wife right before the original series. As a result he decided to end his apprenticeship with Kramer and John was more than okay to allow it knowing his past. As for neither Hoffman, Amanda, or Gordon knowing about him Kramer simply kept Logan a secret in order to allow him to live with his wife in peace
Or John could just kept him a secret like he kept Dr. Gordon a secret in case one of his other apprentices go rogue like Hoffman, alto Hoffman was kinda faithful to John. He's kinda understandably pissed at Jill because she betrayed him and tried to kill him. If you pay attention, Jill rigged bear trap so Hoffman would not be able to win (only like six or seven seconds timer I think), yet it was his quick thinking and I guess sheer will to survive that saved him (by having bear trap stuck between those window bars) and even Jill was caught off guard.
Do a video on the history of the Stephen King universe
19:41 Gordon would also know about Logan, as Kramer did say in the post mortem tape, "no more secrets", giving him an advantage and possibly any additional disciples out there. some may be able/willing to work with Gordon as well.
Man, again, the way you explain things it's incredible. I can't wait for your next video !!
Also, I feel like we have met before and that would be a crazy coincidence !
All I can say is WOW! So well researched.Thanks for feeding my obsession with this series!
Do Mark Hoffman
Yeaaa Hoffman
Ya ikr
Hofffman omgg the boi
I'm late to the party but yes 100%, my man Hoffman. Highkey hoping he's actually still alive.
Yeahhh do hoffmann😍
Is it just me or are @CZsWorld's videos even more entertaining to watch than the movies themselves?!! Watching them definitely enrich the experience of watching any of the movies he covers!
I've been working on a Saw ttrpgs (Dungeons and Dragons like game, but using the forged in the dark system) and videos like this help me to see just how much story telling potential this series has! Keep up the great work!
I know I’m very late, but that’s so cool!!
The count down "then there was ___" is also a reference to the Agatha Christie novel "And Then They Was None" who is both a famous crime novel and the base for the boardgame Clue.
Some ben 10 episodes are named after it too
I love your channel so much, you have some of the most informative videos I’ve ever seen. Also, you’ve made me love the movie Jigsaw more and my favorite character out of the whole franchise is Logan Nelson. Keep up the amazing work.
Ok wait so this guy was the first disciple of saw himself?
He's the OG.
@@CZsWorld great thanks.
No, he's more of a partner.
Yeah he was the pig before the pig existed
Hoffman and Gordon surpassed dude
10:58 James A. Janisse: Jigsaw Rules!!
A fellow Dead Meat fan, I see! 👍🏻👍🏻
It’s important to remember that with the saw time line that most of the movies took place right after another with not much of a time gap. The longest gap would be between 1 and 2 and saw 3 happened only 6 months after 2. Saw 4, 5, 6 and 7 literally happened only days apart so 10 years could be accurate.
I think between saw 3-7 everyone ended up dying within hours of each other
Love the combination of humor and great intelligence in your videos. You don’t just summarize movies and such, you throw your take/opinions/analysis on them. Great content my guy
Nicely done good sir. I truly enjoyed this being a hardcore Saw fan myself, I have a few issues with what you’ve laid out but overall I’m just glad someone else appreciate John Kramer as much as I do haha.
As someone who loves the Saw Series, I appreciate this video so much helping me understand how Jigsaw connects to the other films. Keep on doing your good work!
4:34 I understand this. I am a veteran, and I had a troubled childhood. This darkness we embrace is darker than black. We feel nothing in these moments. We do what needs to be done and think about it long after. It's crazy but it's what we did in order to get our missions done.
Man I just recently started watching your vids and you deserve way more credit than you’re given now. The amount of detail, historical references, plot twists, humor and hypothetical thinking you put into these horror history vids is amazing. As a saw fan myself, I have not seen another channel cover such a complex story line with various videos explaining the franchise history and potential future references like you do. And that all takes tonssss of time, effort, research and knowledge of the actual storyline and it’s characters amongst horror films like saw. Most people look at saw as a gruesome series because of the traps and think no more or care for the complex storyline that has a warped timeline. Along with the other horror films you have covered, and ones you will make videos of in the future, you will gain more views and subscribers. Keep the vids coming man and well done on the content. 👍
After seeing spiral I wonder if they plan on bringing any of these old characters back..
love the idea of Gordan v Logan, perhaps 2 events that the police mistakenly identify as 1 that intertwines them. Rather than it being a fight, its almost a partnership that Kramer predicted all along, two medical professionals continue his legacy in the way he wanted
Ironically, I think Logan is truer to John’s vision than others is because he was there so early and left. John himself lost sight of it over time, without acknowledging. I don’t think John would’ve saved Logan from the blades later on.
I appreciate how neatly these videos are put together. Also have you ever tried expanding the little soundtrack you would use for your videos? Just curious.
That “10 years” line created as much chaos as the “8 years later” in Spider-Man Homecoming.
lol really though. The best explanation is that Logan was saying roughly 10 years ago. A minor mess up from the movie writers but not that big of a deal to me. To others though... it ruined the whole series for them lol they have to chill out
Don't @ me but I like Nelson he seems pretty cool and the twist in jigsaw was pretty good
Yeah I think him and Eleanor are awesome characters.
Nelson is aight but the twist was pretty damn extra. it’s the same twist as 2, 4 and 7 - that is, the hidden apprentice that was helping all along. the different timelines twist was also used in 2. Jigsaw didn’t have any original plot points, unfortunately.
Eh yes, my favorite character from my favorite movie. I'm having a blast. Great video as always!
I love how your voice is very soothing and makes the facts and idea's sound so amazing. I blushies
I just can't get past the fact that there's NO POINT in recreating the barn trap, an event that I remind you no one knew about and was never discovered.
I’d say the barn game would’ve been for a few reasons
1)he’s testing himself and seeing if he has what it takes to be jigsaw
2) it’s a game he has knowledge of and is the most meaningful to him.
Similar to how Gordon left Hoffman in the bathroom because it was the most meaningful
Logan could’ve made that game with others cause it was the first game he was in and it’d be the first one he’d make
3)no one knowing about it would help because it would just make people suspect Kramer’s back and not a copy cat cause it’s a new game no one heard about
Im addicted to your saw videos, you do a great job 🤗☺
The earliest known game is actually the razor wire trap. There had to be quite a few others before that though, since Hoffman was the only one fit enough to carry the big man into the trap and sedate him, so there had to be at least a few publicly known even before that for Hoffman to have committed his copycat pendulum trap.
I think what makes the timeline wonky is it's actually 10 years since jigsaw died and in his monologue, Logan just didn't bother with being exactly correct on when it happened. Idk about everyone else, but I find myself doing that all the time. It's currently 2024 and "10 years ago" could be any time between 2002 and 2006 if the exact year doesn't matter to the story.
1:22 words I never thought I'd hear from John Kramer, "John Kramer realized his mistake and didn't want the unfair circumstances to harm Nelson, so he entered the game and intervened to save Nelson from the spinning blades because of the delayed effect of the sedative, because it was John Kramers honest mistake and he realized that Nelson didn't have a fair chance."
That's right
I really enjoy your content and how you break down plots and theories of these movies. it's awesome, you got me hooked on the horror history installment. Keep em comin
Anyone other than me noticed the importance of Jigsaw's lesson on 'Forgiveness'? Think about it. he forgave Logan for mixing up John's x-rays, he knew Amanda Young's part in John's and Jill's unborn son's death and forgave her. Both Logan and Amanda John had confronted. John forgave Hoffman for using his serial killer nickname and MO to get away with murder, and he confronted him.
Now look at Jeff's part of his and his wife's test. Jeff was forced to face everyone he felt was responsible for his son's death in order to forceo Jeff to decide for himself to forgive. Then there's Tamara's and her son's test of confronting Will who was responsible for the death of Tamara's husband by denying him health insurrance. It was if John was teaching them forgiveness the best way he learned how, by ocnfronting those he could have held responsible or had grudges against.
As for the seventh movie Saw 3D if John had any part in wanting to put Bobby, his wiie, best friend, Lawyer, and publisher through the tests, I think it was too see for himself if Bobby really had what it takes to survive. Otherwise I think Hoffman just used the fact Bobbu lied about being a survivor to create a new game to lure police away from Jill so he can kill her. I say this because unlike Hoffman, Bobby wasn't hurting anyone with his lies much less killing anyone. John saw the positive impact on people Bobby's lies hadfor himself the impact of Bobby's lies in the book signing. If John wanted too he could use his knowledge of where Bobby was at and kidnap him and tested Bobby himself that evening after they met face to face.
Very sad that the rest of this playlist is private, I was enjoying these! Good stuff
I hope that Logan and Dr.Gordon wind up working together, ultimately becoming close friends and the jigsaw duo, and Logan is one of the people in the pig mask helping Gordon.
Absolutely the greatest channel for horror content! Keep up the amazing work man!
Simple question: Why did he kill people that looked like the real victims and displayed their bodies in the real time? What was the reason for that, when nobody else ever found the bodies before? I mean any other reason than to trick the audience...
Probably to fool the public and detective Halloran that John somehow came back to live and had conducted another game right at that moment and force them to act quickly to stop it. Remember, only Nelson and John knew about the original barn game, so Nelson could easily set it up to make it look like a completely new game.
No one knew when exactly Nelson version of the game took place, so he could have just hidden the body. They might have been all dead before Nelson shot Edgar. Only after Edgar was shot did he set everything up into places.
@@markconstance186 So why make them look like the victims in the past, including killing someone to act as himself? Why not just kill some people, and frame the officer and make it not connected to Jigsaw at all? I dont see the reason for that connection other than to artificially create a twist for the viewer that nobody in the movie actually cares about. The ending doesnt make sense either, cause there is going to be an investigation that will discover the barn game. And the "new Jigsaw" - the cop - for some reason put himself in a trap and then died? What? It doesnt make any sense.
@@bomber9912
He could yeah. But if i remember correctly, these victims are connected to Halloran.
They are the criminals that Halloran let go when they clearly are guilty, so it proves that Halloran has motivation to put them into the game.
As for why he didn’t just kill some people and go through his way to conduct a Saw game, well Nelson said it himself. He doesn’t want to be a murderer like Amanda and Hoffman. He actually want to follow through John philosophy of giving others chance to survive.
The new Jigsaw? You know that Hoffman also died as well right? No, Nelson doesn’t need Halloran to be found dead by other people. All he need is evidence to connect him as Jigsaw. Then he could make it so that Halloran has ran far away from home so he won’t be caught. Halloran then would ended up like Hoffman, disappeared without a trace.
@@markconstance186 With the "new Jigsaw" im talkikng about Halloran. Because that was the whole point of the movie. To frame him to be the new Jigsaw killer as you pointed out yourself. I think you dont remember the end of the movie correctly. Nelson made that woman follow him to that location as an aliby. So there is absolutely no way that this place would not be discovered. Even though it should have been already discovered throughout Saw 4-6, since Jigsaws wife was investigated on. But about Logan Nelson being not a murderer... How did he kill the people in real time then? Did they somehow have similar personal histories like the previous victims that would justify the ironic way of their death? And again what about the victim that "replaced" himself that he killed in order to literally just trick the audience? You can try to shift it as you wish, but the whole intention of the movie was to make people believe that the bodies that were discovered were connected to the game that we witnessed. There was never a reason in the movie to kill the guy that was supposed to act as Nelson Logans body.
@@markconstance186 Not even gonna start about the HD TV flatscreens when this game supposedly played before SAW 1
I liked Logan. I think he was a pretty cool and intimidating apprentice to Jigsaw. I hope we see him again in a future saw movie. Maybe Saw 11?
Logan is my favourite, but in the end I hope they subvert from the who'll be the last one remaining, and both Logan and Gordon to team up. To aid and push one another to do so much more and be able to help one another instead of losing sight of the 'ideal' that Saw/Jigsaw wishes to follow. Don't like Saw's gore, but I love the general story in it. Thank you for letting a squeemish person like me learn it all ^^
This is a fantastic video, great work! I never noticed a lot of the stuff you worked to include, from Logan's files and such. Subscribed :)
Jigsaw (2017) isn’t the best, but Logan’s backstory is interesting, even if he isn’t the best apprentice. Great video, Zac!
My thoughts exactly. I've even come to like Jigsaw quite a lot the more that I study it, but it does have a couple flaws. I'll talk more about it in Saturday's video.
CZsWorld Sounds cool! Can’t wait to see it!
Jigsaw is one of the best in the series.
The more I watch this channel, the more impressed I am by the production value and on camera work.
Halloran’s test was to press his own button and admit first. He failed and sabotaged Logan
This video hold a wierd place in my timeline. This was the first video of yours I had seen, I was just getting into the franchise and it was the beginning Covid. Three years later and its been one hell of a ride.
William Shenk, Logan, and Dr. Gordon need to team up and carry on John's legacy! All 3 of these guys are bad ass and awesome.
Nah just Dr. Gordon and Dr. Nelson.
@@TheTrixster690 yes but they need a crooked cop too.
@@flightofthebumblebee9529 Shenk is a cop ?
GOD BLESS, ANOTHER UPLOAD TO KEEP ME SANE IN QUARANTINE 🤧❤️
Unlike Hoffman and Amanda, Logan was a proper pick for a disciple. I like his character and while the timeline is broken by this movie, I liked the games in it.
Just watched Jigsaw so this wouldn’t spoil things for me and I’m glad I did, that was a good movie
Keep up the great work!
Zac, PTSD doesn't lead to sociopathy. Sociopathy develops very early in life, and is commonly correlated with an emotionally traumatic childhood. But PTSD can lead to addiction, which causes people to act as if they don't have remorse, but that's not the same thing. If an addict recovers, they will once again feel remorse, this is because addiction numbs all feelings, the whole point is to escape. Sociopaths do not ever have remorse. Sociopaths also do not seek revenge, they seek benefit and gain, they do not jeopardize themselves for things like a grudge. If they are wronged, they take it as a lesson rather than letting it scar them.
An absolutely amazing breakdown for someone who saw the first 7 movies and nothing else. I thought 1 and 2 were the best since they didn't have too many flashback inserts. Logan is definitely my favorite of the "here all along" sort of characters.
I'd call Nelson an Anti-hero rather than a villain. His victims were criminals, he's more like the Punisher than a straight-up villain. Hoffman was a real villain, he killed indiscriminately to protect himself.
These are the vids that got me into CZ. Such a unique and good idea for fans alike. Really interesting content. Big up cz
I don’t think Logan strayed, Halloran broke the rules by selecting Logan to go first
It seems there might be a split between the followers of John, where Nelson focusing on "speaking for the dead" and bringing justice and Gordon focusing on rehabilitating the players, just like in most religion where they are the same, but have diffrent ways practicing it.
the two unknown apprentices are the 2 dudes at the beginning of the 7th movie. thats what the audio book said.
I think it would have made more sense that he went to war first, his ptsd and mental issues was why he was relegated to just lower level medical duties like labeling x-rays and so caused the mistake. When Kramer saved him and learned the truth, he forgave him and helped him rebuilt his life and he would have been there behind the scenes for every game since. Eventually he was deemed well enough to become a medical examiner and so we now have Logan, and Doctor Gordon working with Kramer and continuing his work after his death. In the previous Saw Movie we see that there were three figures in the pig masks and Gordon was the only one who revealed himself, supporting the theory that one of the other two is Logan and the third is a character yet to be revealed.
I really hope he makes an appearance in Spiral, even as a little cameo as a medical examiner looking at the bodies
That would be an awesome movie to see. Two unknown apprentices of Jigsaw go at each other in a future film while seeing their backstory relationship with John Kamer, how they each view him as a mentor. I would be down to see a film like that. Thanks for uploading.
Didn’t really like the 2017 twist at all, and honestly the other movies had a nice green tint, trippy camera angles, flashbacks, and made it more scary
You are a very insightful fellow, I have to say I really enjoyed this video, I'll be watching more of your videos. I do hope the Logan character returns
To be honest Logan was my least favorite of the disciples. You can tell his story was forced in.
Finally someone else agrees
Yea the whole story of jigsaw not actually having cancer doesnt really sit well with me. It takes alot of impact out of the original 3.
@@WeirdEdz when does it say he doesnt? Thats still a canon thing, the only thing this movie did was say it took too long for the doctors to find it due to the X-Rays being flipped on accident.
wow pretty crazy how well thought out this was... I wish they continued with this guy :(
Apparently the two unknown helpers of Dr Gordon were the two guys from the trap where the girl was hanging overhead in that public test and she keeps trying to talk them into saving her
Brad and Ryan
I like to think the reason why those two dudes assist Gordon because the traps that they play is designed by him to settle their love triangle. So they kinda grateful for it
@@faizalardillah1440 nah it's hoffman who set the trap.
That "he showed antisocial tendencies... much like me when I'm editing a video" line was so damn relatable 😂
However, when Jill was killed, Gordon showed no mercy on Hoffman. So.... Logan repeated how Gordan acted on Jigsaw's behalf
You deserve more subs and likes tbvh..
You put so much time and detail in this video.❤