My Main Problem With Ben 10: Alien Force
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- Опубліковано 8 вер 2024
- I don't hate it, I just think it's kind of pretentious.
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Tracklist:
Mindfields by The Prodigy (with phasing and pitch shifting),
Hold Your Color by Pendulum,
Granite by Pendulum (with phasing and pitch shifting),
Watercolor by Pendulum (with phasing and pitch shifting),
and Space Trip Steps.. For Meteor Herd by Jun Senoue from the Sonic Adventure 2 OST
I do not own or hold claim to any footage or music whatsoever. Certain video clips used are property of Cartoon Network, Cartoon Network Studios, Warner Bros. Television Distribution, Studio Gainax, TV Tokyo, TXN, Syfy, Toonami, Adult Swim, Aniplex of America, Man of Action Studios, and Man of Action. All video and audio footage has been used for the intent of transformative commentary and is permitted by the fair use clause.
![When Ben 10 Grew Up [Ben 10: Alien Force] | Billiam](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/_z53rNkjAKw/mqdefault.jpg)
![When Ben 10 Grew Up [Ben 10: Alien Force] | Billiam](/img/tr.png)
Cut content from this video: "...I just don’t think that the Justice League style of approach really works with Ben 10, because the character isn't Superman- he's more like Billy Batson from David F. Sandberg's Shazam- he’s an ordinary kid who finds himself with superpowers and needs to learn how to be a better hero, not a perfect one."
I also wrote a paragraph or so about how Gwen and Kevin in Alien Force aren't as effective as Grandpa Max and Gwen in the 2005 series, because while you could say that Alien Force Gwen is the new Grandpa and Kevin is the new Gwen given how Gwen is now more supportive (which demonstrates her and Ben's new maturity), I don't think that's really true because 2008 Gwen doesn't feel enough like a mentor figure to really fill those shoes. Kevin may be willing to criticize Ben, but the fact that he was once a villain makes it hard to see him as having the moral high ground, something that 2005 Gwen was able to have because she was generally portrayed as being smarter than Ben. If anything, Alien Force Ben is the cousin Gwen to Kevin's 2005 Ben- their rivalry is now more friendly and Kevin is the one who needs to grow into better person while Ben is now the one with the moral high ground over him. Kevin Levin is in a better position to be the protagonist of Ben 10: Alien Force than Ben 10 himself.
...is what I would have said in the video but I felt like I'd be going off on a distracting tangent so I decided to cut it and focus on my arguments more towards Ben as the protagonist instead.
I considered following that up with "David F. Sandberg's Shazam (2019) is a better live-action Ben 10 movie than Race Against Time or Alien Swarm" but it would be more of a goof
In terms of power, Ben is pretty broken by the end of Ultimate Alien. I believe at the time(and this was counting in my head without checking), he had over 80 aliens. They added even more in Omniverse. I just don't see how the character can struggle. They kept trying to push the Omnitrix not working and giving him wrong aliens but that's not really funny or works with the narrative 4 series in.
It was a joke that worked when Ben was young but they tried to make the character mature in Alien Force and kind of went back on that in Omniverse(I didn't finish Omniverse but it seemed that way). He should have better control of the watch. Sorry for getting into other things but the show had gotten to the point where the aliens did the same things. This has been a problem since Alien Force. The powers weren't as unique. He had two aliens for speed. One that had fire and plant powers even though he had two aliens for that. Diamond Head had another alien inside of it or something? He had quite a few strength based aliens.
You're right about the series. Ben 10 doesn't work super well with the Justice League. Ben isn't perfect but he's strongest out of a lot of people in his group. Maybe Gwen could rival him? I forgot how strong her "magic" got. Kevin had the potential to be strong but for some reason he never stole powers from others, just metals. I know I went off into other things but I agree with your Shazam example.
@@sirmel11 I mean he needs to be a more selfless, morally better hero, not a more powerful hero in terms of strength (just to be clear). You do have a point about the power sets, tho- Ben's transformations should be like a toolbox of where each one performs better under different situations, and if you have tools that power creep each other, it kind of renders the other ones redundant... which is also kind of disappointing for fans of the older character designs because now they don't get to see their favorites as much.
@@Lavapasta Man I love this video please make more ben 10 character studies and how the entire franchise should have been handled.
I really liked Alien Force still do but I understand your points.
Same
Rewatching af its not bad but its not that good to me anymore
Yeah, Criticism is ok, but overall, it was,
no matter how you look at it, 'More Ben 10'.
If you get what i mean with that.
Except Season 3, it was good enough.
Omniverse meanwhile is a whole other thing.
...I just miss Gwen looking good... Ouch...
@@slevinchannel7589 bruh omniverse was great gwen still looked good and she just looks like that cuz she goes to college or boarding school whatever it is
@@watterson.darwin Its literally her worst design ever.
Omniverse is generally known by Fans to be the Red-haired Step-child of the Franchise.
It was a Mistake of dumb Creators; we even know their thought-process - and its a ridiculous one.
So the facts - why dont you know this??
Alien Force was pretty cool. I think it worked in some places and struggled in others. I liked seeing Ben being nicer to Gwen and how being the leader wasn’t easy for him.
maybe that was the struggle and movitation for ben hmm
Until season 3 which was bad
I'm only 3 and a half minutes in, so I may be jumping the gun, but I need to clarify something.
You say _Alien Force_ paints Ben as a "perfect hero" and doesn't really learn anything. Well, that's not entirely true. Or, at least, not to me.
You made a great point about how Ben in the original _Ben 10_ series wants to feel accomplished in his heroics but needs to be more responsible in the actions he takes. So, Ben had a positive change arc in the original series.
In _Alien Force,_ think of Ben as a static character (another term being a flat arc character). A character who doesn't really go through any significant change because they've either overcame the lie they initially believed or they've always had a grasp of the truth they believed through their whole life. And according to K.M. Weiland, author of the novel _"Creating Character Arcs",_ there is this giant misconception that flat arc characters are bland and unlikable because they have zero flaws. Weiland states that's not true and that static characters are just as important as characters who go through change arcs, because static characters use their truth to inspire change in other characters and the world around them, such as his and Gwen's interactions that changed Kevin for the better. But for their efforts to work properly, flat arc characters are usually put in situations where their truths are challenged.
MY problem with Ben in _Ben 10: Alien Force_ (which you may have stated in this video, but again, only 3 and a half minutes in) is after season 2, he let's his universal fame for saving the universe from the Highbreed invasion go to his head and he becomes an arrogant and pompous jackass who believes, no matter what, he'll always win. Now, I'd believe this character shift a lot more if he was 10 years old, because that's how he always was. But I feel like this was too much of a regression of his character, while at the same time, it was something Ben had never really experienced before (such as receiving so much praise for his heroics).
See this man? This man right here? He spits nothing but facts. Thank you, good sir.
Louder for the Cartoon Network Execs who forced Man of Action to make this change.
In my opinion, the regression could have actually worked for Ben IF they SHOWED how he went from humble and willing to learn from his mistakes to arrogant and unwillingness to learn from mistakes. The arrogant and annoying personality for Ben concept is actually good for season 3, but it should at least been hinted in the 1st episode of season 3(where Ben’s arrogance first came from)
What I would have done:
Season 3 ep 1 hints Ben being a bit arrogant but not to the point of making the audience want to slap him and don’t overdo it as well.
This can happen by having strangers or even random girls praising and hitting on him because he’s famous and a hero
Maybe even show how Mr Smoothy or the place he buys Chilli fries gives him free food because he’s famous and a hero
Then in later episodes in battle where Gwen or Kevin tells him to be careful of a strong villain, he says something like “please, I’ve defeated Vilgax twice and saved the world 2 times already, he isn’t even worth for me to turn into my strong hitters for” and messes up the fight due to his arrogance which gets him into hot water with Gwen and Kevin and also causes his friend Julie or his no name classmates to be injured which he is made to take responsibility for
This causes him to change or reflect and become better
k
@@cynicalducky1041 what u just said is what exactly happened in Ultimate Alien. Also hes 15, hes not in his 20's. Its natural for kids that age to get this arrogance and take into account who he beat, what hes done and the fact that he has the most powerful weapon in the universe. Take into account that ben was 10 when all those lessons were instilled in him, a 10 year old isnt gonna get that I'm sorry but it's true, a 10 year old is more likely to forget those kinda values over time. Also a kid who was able to fight intergalactic monsters losing a simple soccer game, ur kidding right. Also in the first season of AF ben might have been seen as a perfect hero but there were multiple times in multiple separate episodes where he had a childish attitude, he had flaws as a leader, he had priority issues and lets not pretend other people wouldn't have gotten as arrogant as Ben was in season 2 after what he accomplished, not only that it wasn't even in that many episodes where he was acting arrogant.
@@kingdynamo4519 From my comment I'm not implying that Ben was flawless. I only stated that he was humble and responsible for his actions. He did have flaws but it wasn't expanded upon and he had emotional maturity(knowing when to be serious in a situation that asks for it, ie: saving the world or saving someone's life)so his childishness and priority issues instantly disappeared once the situation required him to do so.
My issue is that in season 3, the show never once SHOWED how Ben went from humble to an arrogant price that makes the audience want to strangle him.
You say it's unrealistic for a a teenager to remember all those values. WELL, allow me to show you how your point about realism can be used against your points.
You say that its unrealistic for Ben to remember all those values he was taught as a 10 year old and that any teenager will become arrogant after all he accomplished. You do realise that this is a show about a kid/teenager having a science fiction watch that allows him to transform into aliens where one of them is literally omnipotent. Not to mention, he is friends/Ex rivals or enemies with an alien that can absorb any kind of material or energy and be as overpowered as he wanted to?
Also having an alien bloodline(he is 1/4 anodite after all) and having a cousin with their alien powers who can manipulate mana(the energy that supplies magic users to cast spells or magic) and is made of it.
Therefore, your realism point is moot.
One of the minor problems I had with UAF is that the transformation sequences weren't as visually interesting as the original series' and him shouting his alien's names after every transformation got old after a while. It was kinda cool the first few times but after like 5 seasons of hearing "HUUUMMOOONNGUSSAAAAUUURRRR!!!!" it's like dude, we get it. Didn't ruin the show for me or anything, just a minor detail lol
I love the music for his transformations so that was great. The transformations was one of the things I really liked but yeah I guess it can get annoying and the name shouting was dumb.
at least Gwen and Kevin joking about Ben's alien name shouting was funny to watch
After watching the classic series, then going to AF, it was honestly refreshing to see Ben being a competent hero, like we all know he has the potential to be. The problems arose when they decided to give him that ever inflating ego in the later seasons as well as UA.
Yeah, Criticism is ok, but overall, it was,
no matter how you look at it, 'More Ben 10'.
If you get what i mean with that.
Except Season 3, it was good enough.
Omniverse meanwhile is a whole other thing.
But UA was also okay. The actual damage rather started with Omniverse.
@@chiranjeevsaikia560 omniverse was also good the story was amazing and ben it less of a douche the animation is also good it's not as bad the reboot we get to see ben control alien X and in ben reboot well I think it's okay but it's not as good as the others I wish they can go back to the original timeline
@@Xx_SuperPenis_xX it seems good because what came after OV is even more atrocious. It's somewhat similar to how people started to like Ultimate Spiderman after the release of the underwhelming 2017 Spiderman Show.
Whereas in reality even Ultimate Spiderman is very much inferior in terms of story as well as storytelling when we compare it to earlier shows like Spectacular Spiderman or the 90s animated series.
@@slevinchannel7589 tbh Ben 10 OV felt more like more Ben 10. Considering the fact that it's tone had mainly been watered down to sell toys. Also if CN was actually interested in telling a decent Ben 10 story then they would have bought someone like Greg Weisman, considering how well he has handled shows like Young Justice and Spectacular Spiderman which mainly focus on teen superheroes, it would have been great to see his take on Ben 10. Instead they bought someone like Derrick J Wyatt who proves time and again that he barely knows anything about the characters and the show, most of the time ends up contradicting his own stuff in Twitter, but still tries make himself look like a wannabe Kevin Fiege for Ben 10.
Lol, the part where Ben was talking about how the sequel kind of messed it up because "it not very realistic is all I'm saying" is so relatable. That's pretty much exactly how I feel about certain character and canon changes in the Last Jedi! XD
I mean, I don't really see what TLJ changed all that much, as we were shown how the Jedi order lost their way in the prequels and Luke was always a bit of a whiny baby who rushed into situations without thinking. If anything, TRoS is the film with a lot of strange changes to the lore, but that didn't stop me from loving it.
@@genyakozlov1316 TLJ already introduced a lot of weird changes to the lore and the problem was it rolled back 3 whole movies of character development for Luke. His entire arc was about becoming a reserved, measured, but noble and kind Jedi. For TLJ to erase all that it's just illogical, it's insulting.
Combine that with Luke misrepresenting the Jedi and blaming them for his mistakes when he gave into fear (the Dark Side), Rey receiving no training, characterization, or evolution yet being stronger than ever, the entire film being a slow chase, the film failing to forward the overall story of the trilogy, just random illogicalities like Holdo not telling Poe the plane, Rose saving Finn from across the battlefield, and random kids using the Force with zero training and I'd say there are _plenty of reasons to dislike the Last Jedi._
One thing that bugged me about this series was the backgrounds. They're all the same blue and blacks. Like, I can't tell a diner scene from the highbreed homeworld.
I completely agree, AF and UA easily have the worst music and background.
When i imagine an episode of AF, a dark lack lusture background is the first thing that came into mind.
That was probably why i never really liked it during my childhood and i could never really point it out then and the transformation animations are so disappointing coming from Classic Ben 10 .
It's interesting to see a new perspective on this show. I personally think Ultimate Alien is better than Alien Force but the original is the GOAT
I'd argue that while Ben is pretty mature when it comes to being a hero, he now has to deal with human issues like his relationship with julie, ect
The way I see it, I think Alien Force took the series in the right direction. I'm a big believer in the idea that shows should mature as their audience matures and that's what Alien Force did for the most part. Ben's grown up now and he's a lot more mature than how we saw him 5 years ago which I think is great character development and we see this almost throughout the entire run of Alien Force until season 3 which kinda fucks up his development but I digress. I like Alien Force a lot and to me, it's honestly a near-perfect sequel series. I like that they go back and give us more details and explanations on stuff like Gwen's powers and Kevin's family and stuff like that while still managing to fit in the universe so it doesn't really seem like that much of a retcon. I also like how clear it is that Ben has become both smarter and stronger with his aliens, hell there are entire episodes dedicated to this. Season 3 kinda makes Ben a douche bag and I get why not a lot of people enjoy it as much. However, I do admire how in the following series, Ultimate Alien, they address this and go a step further to use it for MORE character development, especially in season 2 when shit between Ben and Kevin gets real again. To make a long story short, I thought Alien Force was a near-perfect follow up to Ben 10 classic, but that's just me.
The narrator want a high anime level character e which I do to since it's best for everyone but that's not an issue in AF it's an issue in series in fact it's an issue in entire Cartoon Network I think it's asking too much for a limited studio of show.
Exactly. I loved the running joke of Kevin getting mad when something happened to his car. And the episode where his parents find out and ground him is phenomenal.
"I'm a big believer in the idea that shows should mature as their audience matures and that's what Alien Force did for the most part." I agree, but more mature audience usually buy less toys, so Cartoon Network prioritised re-aiming Ben 10, back at kids, so they get more money from toys.
UA was much better than AF and that's a good thing. Ben became an immature again in S3 because success got into his head. Kaash na ho! UA was much better. All seasons were perfect. Especially S3
@@AquosFrost I mean hey, Ninjago got away with it and look how they’re doing
This was good. I can't believe you analyzed this whole series. It's so long!
Yeah, Criticism is ok, but overall, it was,
no matter how you look at it, 'More Ben 10'.
If you get what i mean with that.
Except Season 3, it was good enough.
Omniverse meanwhile is a whole other thing.
...I just miss Gwen looking good... Ouch...
Within the first episode of alien force they managed to set the mood for the rest of the seasons . Ben being overly attached/ needy of his Grampa as if he is his father figure; Gwen’s uncharacteristic concern for Kevin and her not really caring about Grampa Max’s whereabouts; the complete 180 for Kevin’s character and retcon of his abilities ( like at least if you want to make him good make him earn it with time and show why he’s changed , not just “I was bad now I’m good” simple logic of the show; Gwen loving Kevin as soon as the series started ; Ben’s total helplessness without his Grampa being around (when in the first series he showcased multiple times that he doesn’t need assistance); retcon of magic and the character arc of Gwen in first series; change of Ben’s mom’s hair. Also I learned that they tried to make Ben’s gf a different race because they thought they were racist (wtf)
I really enjoyed the darker topics of the show but it lacked the mix of fun and serious the first show had : watching it again when you’re not 8 really makes you pick up some points .
They actually changed his Mom's hair back to blonde it was probably just an animation error because it was the pilot episode
Julie and Kai are to different people
Julie & Kai are very different people. Actually Kai appeared before Alien Force even began. With her first appearance being in Season 3 Episode 5 of the Classic series.
And the change of mom's hair point is stupid. Not only does it not matter at all but you do realise people can dye their hair right?
Also, They do try to make up for Gwen instantly liking Kevin in Omniverse.
And that's why UA was the best show of Ben 10. It had the perfect balance of funny and dark
My BIGGEST problem with AF is at the end of “Max out” no one showed ANY emotion when max “dies” but still AF is my favorite.
But I get ur points
Yeah, that's a mistake they made.
Other than that Alien Force was really cool.
@@Osama_Rashid yea man, they could have made it supper emotional and amazing
But Nope it just felt rushed and no one was phased buy it that made me So Mad
@@luhbxbyccl8521 Indeed, maybe they should've at least let one of them cry.
Not Kevin obviously but Gwen or Ben could've cry a bit, maybe some tears.
But yeah as you said it felt rushed and no one was phased by that, it seems weird and creates confusion in the audience.
@@Osama_Rashid yep, and the episode after that Gwen was the ONLY ONE who was sad about his “death” Ben was SUNDENLY over it for SOME REASON AND u made a great point one of them should have cried and made the audience feel sad for his death cuz we all loved him in classic when I watched the end of “max out” I was not sad for his death cuz it was not a serious moment for me cuz the characters were like
“K time for the next episode” his death should have been super emotional and serious but it was NOT😡
@@luhbxbyccl8521 Yeah cuz that scene was supposed to be emotional it doesn't matter how mature someone is.
Even a drop of tear would've made the kids sad.
And I love how you put it "K, time for the next episode".
I hope someone will recreate that scene with more emotions.
I feel like this video missed Ben's character arc entirely in Alien Force. What's interesting is that at 6:30 you describe the arc of Ben in Alien Force almost perfectly. Ben's entire arc in Alien Force is about him becoming a leader, since Grandpa Max's disappearnce. Ben has to overcome not only his own insecurities about leadership but also the insecurities of his teammates the "Alien Force", he has to adapt to being the person who can handle the weight of their insecurities and trying to push them forward as well as himself forward. You state that Ben has no flaws yet one of the first episodes in the series shows his flaws as a leader which almost kills the trio. The Michel Morning Star episode.
I couldn't say it better than both of you. These points are what makes Alien Force satisfying to watch
He really doesn't actually struggle as much as you make him out to be. I completely agree with Lavapasta here. Ben is an extremely barebones character. They very quickly gloss over any instances in which he struggles as a character. An instance in which he did actually grow as a character is the AF S3 finale.
@@aaronputhalath5551
"An instance in which he did actually grow as a character is the AF S3 finale."
Which should never have happened the way it did in the first place because Ben becoming irresponsible again after all he has learned is pathetic writing.
I'll never understand people who support that sort of writing or character regression.
@@lowgunfire2671 That's....what a character arc is. If you remove S1 and S2 from the equation, it makes for a good consistent arc.
That's my point. He starts off irresponsible and becomes humble by the end in S3. That's a character arc. In S1 and S2 he starts off humble and remains that throughout. That's not s character arc. That's essentially just a character reset in a positive direction. We never see the growth of Ben from OS to AF. That's all off screen.
@@aaronputhalath5551 No u see ben already acted immature as a 10 year old for 52 episodes. Alien force made his character mature from that experience he had as a 10 year old and shows us some growth. Grandpa max is missing and there is a talk of an alien invasion so no way ben would be immature at that point
Love seeing Ben 10 video essays on UA-cam. Good shit.
I feel you man
if Ben's decision to remove the omnitrix wasn't his choice, the feedback arc would have never happened, and it was a pretty good arc
No it still easily could have, with some rewriting here and there. Besides the OV writers already confirmed that Ben losing feedback didn’t make him give up the omnitrix. He gave it up for other reasons.
Af seasons 1 and 2 are peak ben 10 for me. I loved the hybreed arc and ben having to grow up to be responsible leader but season 3 ruined all of that
ben 10 was only a mature in alien force season 1 and 2, and was more childish in the rest of the franchize. i think it's safe to say that alien force season 1 and 2 are the black sheeps
@@inenglishmynamemeansnoble5580 that's exactly why I hated omniverse. UA ben was both childish in some episodes and mature in some
@@insertnamehere658 ben was more imature for the whole franchize except alien force season 1 and 2.
alien force season 1 and 2 just makes him more mature for some reason, which is completely out of character.
@@inenglishmynamemeansnoble5580 no, if u watch ben 10 classic season 1 to 4 and af season 1 and 2, it actually felt natural. It was not out of character and it makes sense considering he's older because ben in af season 3 is just a cocky dick and in omniverse he's a dumb child. Why r u faulting season 1 and 2 for taking ben's character in a better direction?
@@insertnamehere658 kn omniverse hes not a dumb child he just has more fun with his job
Honestly it's funny that people think this show was more mature when they'd never even seen the original.
They'll also praise alien force yet it's the only show in the franchise that's tone-ally off from the rest.
I personally hate when plot points are favored above character development and character goals. Like what was Ben's overall goal?
Omniverse lack of Ben. Is more a Rook show.
@@mayotango1317 Then Alien force is more of a kevin levin show
@@COrraThereal0ne No, he is the Spike of the show.
'Its all about growing and learning as a character'
OS ben: literally forgets the lesson he learned last episode
Meanwhile...
AF Ben: Actually takes the lessons that he has learned to heart. (Minus Season 3.)
@@lowgunfire2671 Source: I made it the fuck up
@@COrraThereal0ne
That's definitely the source Lavapasta used when creating this video.
Been re-watching ben 10 lately for nostalgia. While I haven't gotten to AF yet, I've been going over it in my head, and I'm glad I'm not the only one to pick up on the anti-eugenics thing they did with the Highbreed. It's insane they managed to pull off something like that within what was basically a Saturday morning cartoon.
Yeah, Criticism is ok, but overall, it was,
no matter how you look at it, 'More Ben 10'.
If you get what i mean with that.
Except Season 3, it was good enough.
Omniverse meanwhile is a whole other thing.
...I just miss Gwen looking good... Ouch...
My main problem with Ben 10 as a franchise as a whole is how inconsistent is Ben as a character
*That's kinds the reason why I love the reboot, with all its flaws at least ben is characterized more consistent with the pass of seasons*
Here are the retcon I didn't like about the ultimate alien force :
-making ben & gwen grandma being an alien
-making
-making kevin an alien hybrid
And how Ben use master control
My favorite episodes of Alien Force:
#1: "Paradox" - Professor Paradox's origin story and the episode with the most pulp vintage sci-fi vibes, I appreciate that they put in the work to make an "old Kevin" character design, and seeing Ben drive for the first time was pretty neat because its funny and it gives him something that he's not perfect at. A-
#2: "Inside Man" - Having the episode take place from the perspective of Tyler, a fugitive on the run from the DNAliens, and seeing him get rescued by Ben and the group was really cool imo. Unfortunately, the perspective shift makes it harder to see Ben choosing Tyler's life over the oscillator key as a defining character moment and the episode could have worked even better if it was more built around Ben grappling over that sort of choice- it would have been neat if Ben and Kevin had a conversation where Kevin asks him to choose between stopping the DNAliens and saving 1 person, forcing Ben to really think about it. B+
#3: "War of the Worlds, Part 2" - The Season 2 finale where its the eleventh hour and the protagonists are at a disadvantage. I prefer it over part 1 because part 2 doesn't have the pretentious heroic walk sequences, and Ben's method of defeating the Highbreed is a really creative idea. B
#4: "The Final Battle, Part 2" - The Season 3 finale, where Ben sacrifices the Omnitrix to stop Vilgax. Big moment, I like some of the shots where Ben is miserable in the rain, but the "Azmuth, help me!' line is a bit much in my opinion. B-
#5: "Pier Pressure" - aka the Ben's date with Julie episode. Still wish the episode had been about Ben's fear of Julie finding out his secret identity and thinking it's gross/weird/less of him for it until deciding to do so bec her safety is more important than being judged, but I like the boardwalk pier carnival as a setpiece and wish that it had appeared more often. C+
Regarding Pier Pressure, you do realize that Ben did make a choice to give away his secret identity to Julie?
After Jetray's slip of the tongue, Ben could have just come up with a lie that he was friends with Ben rather than actually being Ben, but no. He settled for telling Julie what was up.
Honestly, sometimes I wonder if Alien Force critics even watch the show...
Are you sure it's pretentious? When it's just simply going all the way, while also executing it in the best way possible.
Yeah, Lavapasta was really being idiotic with this video.
@@lowgunfire2671 Yeah, because he has to agree with the consensus opinion or else he's an idiot
@@lowgunfire2671 yeah so disliking uaf is idotic. This shows you how much of that kind of fan you are " I am 14 and this deep and mature'
@@Wireseason3-4myfavficton
Stop lumping Ultimate Alien and Alien Force together. THAT is what is actually idiotic here.
Ultimate Alien is its own can of worms.
Heck, even Season 3 of Alien Force should be discarded from the first 2 seasons, which are frankly the franchise's peak.
Thinking about it Alien Force would've been better placed as the ending of the Ben 10 series, with Ben as plumber trusted with the ultimate aliens.
However Alien X is the only thing I disagree with. The point of Alien X is while it is the strongest alien Ben has, the time and convincing it should take to get both to agree is never worth it. In Alien X's first task he was lucky he had the time to stop the dam, imagine if he tried that with Vilgax in the finale. In every other use of Alien X they seem to blast past the whole point that using Alien X is an episodes worth of interesting dialogue and convincing of 2 extremes on whatever issue Ben wants them to do. Omniverse had the worst use of them just agreeing nearly instantly to fight.
I get point of Alien X was that it was a one off episode alien that they thought of with an interesting concept. But if it's going to be used in universe, it needs to be a significant point of the episode. Alien X is not inherently built to be a solution to all problems, rather an analogy to divided society itself and what it can do if joined together.
But lowkey I nearly forgot that Ben and Kevin try to hack the Omnitrix twice, then Kevin absorbs it exploding twice, and gets messed up twice. Like they did the exact same thing in series twice with the same results.
Neat take on Alien X! I still wish he was treated like an apotheosis of Ben's character, but your ideas for stories that he could be used for sound really cool too.
I honestly think that ben 10 in af shouldnt have become solely mature by the end i think it shouldve carried into ua and when he fights vilgax for the last time in that series he becomes more mature. And then in omniverse it shouldve been more of an age gap like probably 17 or 18 because that would prob explain his behavior of being quite childish because hes been on the job for most of his life and wont take it too seriously
I love alien force even though it has some flaws
The original has problems aswell.
I love all of them Omniverse really have some problems in it
@@nathanielpettersen2560 good coping
i disagree with your statement on Ben not really having any flaws and it feels like an end point. The point of the first two seasons of Alien Force were to show a teenager who for the first 5 years didn’t want to have super powers and instead a normal life. It’s only until a world shaking problem occurs is Ben forced to take on the role of the super hero position once more.
The arc for Ben is someone who was forced to take up the mantle of being a hero and his failings along the ways. Kevin and Gwen (contrary to your opinion) do act as foils to remind Ben that he isn’t perfect. Ben is forced to be this hero and the first two seasons have emphasis on Ben becoming a better leader figure. He acts out at Gwen and patronizes her, he scorns Kevin, but he does these without any basis. It’s the story of a kid who was forced to take on this leadership position and struggles to become the leader he feels Grandpa Max wants him to be. He tries so hard to be this god figure leader and ends up failing a lot. He’s harsh on himself, he sometime doesn’t trust his teams judgment, etc. The first two seasons are his growth into becoming the leader Grandpa Max wants him to be.
*4 years (cuz of omniverse)
My main problem with Ben in both Alien Force and Ultimate Alien is that it feels like they never really had a plan with Ben's character. Sometimes he's a stone cold badass, other times he's a perfect specimen of a hero, and other time he's a complete goober. Unlike the OG series and Omniverse where it feels like there was a clear direction of who they wanted Ben to be as a person.
That's bc Cartoon Network kinda forced the team to make Ben more childish for viewers.
S3 of Af got hit the worst of this.
Ben had alot of development in alien force.
Such as....name specific character beats that aren't just out of character decisions that move the plot forward
I'd argue that Ben does have an arc in Alien Force. He's had his grandfather to guide him in his path to becoming a hero up until now, but Alien Force focuses on challenging Ben to become a leader and learn how to be a hero without the continued guidance of Grandpa Max. Scenes like the flashback to when Max was teaching Ben how to ride a bike paint a vivid picture that Ben understands that now that he is older he can't always rely on his grandfather to be there to support him, and he struggles with that throughout the show. He tells Max in several scenes, "I need you", but Max knows that Ben is ready to become a leader, even if Ben doesn't want to believe it yet or can't see it yet.
Alien Force does have it's fair share of flaws but I think the argument that Ben no longer has an arc is incorrect; it's not that he no longer has one, it's that he now has a new arc, new challenges to face now that he is older. His arc changed.
I would argue the arc they tried giving him is mute as long as Grandpa Max is around. I personally think he should’ve either died or out of action due to Ben’s actions. I also would like to say a problem I have with AF is that they don’t establish who Ben is after the OS well enough. We don’t see Ben in his own element talking to people and hanging out before the main conflict starts. We need a contrast to when things hit the fan. OS Ben was quickly established in the first episode as a kid with issues who just wants to help when he can. We don’t get that with 15 year old Ben. We see him play soccer and talk a little bit with Julie which kinda establishes that things have been goin alright with Ben and that he’s not the show offy guy he was when he was 10. But that again doesn’t tell us enough. As 10 to 15 is quite a big age gap. It’ll be different if we were slowly informed how Ben’s life was since getting rid of watch and maybe give us something we haven’t seen before which is that the Omnitrix is more of a burden than the wish fulfillment we originally saw it as. Let’s see Ben more as teenager beyond the surface level. Dwayne Mcduffie showed this in Static Shock and I would’ve loved to see Ben in similar scenarios.
@@ItsMichaelReid Grandpa Max is an immortal being of unfathomable power though, so death wouldn't really be a problem for him.
I think that was actually the point. We don't need to see Ben learning to be a hero once again, he did that in the OG series. AF is about Ben (now more mature as he's 5 years older) being that "perfect hero" learning to be a leader, trusting his teammates AND HIMSELF, inspiring new heroes and that eventually leads to the season 2 finale when he assembles the Alien Force. Unfortunately in season 3 theres a character regression, where he seems to be his 10 year old self again, that's a problem too in Ultimate Alien and Omniverse mostly. Ben learning the same lesson over and over again. Using the same formula just because "it made the original work" actually ended up killing Ben's character development.
read 5yl
I don't care about what's different about Ben in Alien Force, he's fine for the most part.
I hate how Alien Force basically killed Gwen, Kevin and other characters from the original series and inserted their own fanfic versions.
Retcons like Gwen being an alien and stuff like that are just the icing on the cake.
7:41 He did tell her.
He could try to hide it but chose to share his world with her the moment he knew it would make things easier.
Facts.
I don't think Lavapasta was paying too much attention when he watched the show.
A better character development …
is for him to go through an identity crises and go through depression acting like Ben 1k (from the original) “after grandpa died”. Releasing at the end to become a hero he doesn’t have to be the perfect one, preparing for Ben Omniverse, because Ben is more child like.
The Ben of AF is the character develoment that the original show lack.
He learned his responsibility at the end of the classic series so him being mature in Alien force makes sense but that doesn't mean he doesn't have anything else to learn
He learns from being a character being a hero because of burden to being a hero because of choice. I am a 15 year old and I like many others hate Season3 because it rectons his development in season 1 and 2
Ultimate alien fixes this by making Ben have the power to change the world but he doesn't use it selfishly saying . He is not a God and it's not his right to use his powers to change everything because it is not live
Ben10 evolved into alien force
I myself went through a ton of trauma as a 6 year old and I am not as dumb as Ben in Alien force season 3
If you want Ben to grow read 5 years later by the ink tank which is a crossover between danny phantom and Ben prime as an adult in his early 20s
Ben 10 alien force season 3 has problems because of network meddling
Excuses
5:40 Art style is used in Justice League and marvel show too and we don't hear hate on it since it's a minor nitpick, CN was not invested high budget art style. I agree with Alien X but it's also "and easy way out" all the highbreed war all the plot only to Alien X to finish it in a blink seems plot gone too easy.
And Highbreed playing neo nazi type role was also very well and developed.
Kevin is like Polnareff from JoJo as a teen he shined ! His jokes, his complicated life growing up.
1:23 And how long can you run with the same schtick, By the end of season 4 the things were so dreadful in original series Gwens constantnious dweeb comment or whether it's "Villain of the week" doesn't really work. It felt like an end it felt like an "Long overdue" show and the darker Justice League approach the iconic green jacket the 2010-2012 Era will always be remembered people can come up with complains of "Ultimate forms were just for money grab" if they really were by each epsiode they would be shoving then down your throat, Point of AF and UA was to focus on a missing element form Original series and that was a "plot !" Plot is what it great, Duty of original series was to establish and Universe and it did Duty of UAF was to build a plot and it did and duty of Omniverse was to Expand it and it did (However they went to mature to non-matutre and lost it's audience out of total 80 epsiodes 6 or 7 really mattered from brilliant "Feedback arc" to Season 6 emotional "And then there were" 2 parter made Omniverse good but other then that everything else went downhill).
Your response on "I'd rather watch Alternate timeline epsiode form Omniverse" can easily be countered with "That's as far as Omniverse sealing goes" other then that unfunny epsiodes with Magister Ripjaws in undertown or "Bill Vilgax" comedy epsiodes hits massive low for Omniverse too.
And lastly show being about "Ben" it always was "Who after seeing the Jump gate opened in War of the Worlds decide to repair them it wasn't Azmuths idea it was "Ben" who took the sword of Asclon and defeated the Dagon Vilgax it was "Ben".
Each series is not perfect but the "Ultimate Izuku Mydoriya" type development that we all would've loved isn't something CN was gonna do it anyways that fact we got 2 greats plots in UAF proves it's superior to OS at the very least and hence why a lot of people loves it m.ua-cam.com/video/fWNZrr-0EIg/v-deo.html I understand you don't want to be negative about AF and want the best for Ben and do we but AF at least in the first 2 seasons and even in end of S3 out smarting Vilgax multiple times did the best job with Ben.
The aliens really bothered me for this series. They are too unoriginal and recombinations of the old ones besides spidermonkey and alien X. Takes away the need for fusions which I love.
Can someone clarify the intro clip for me? I thought Kevin was also really into Sumo Slammers. He even gets excited when Ben tells him that there'll be a live action movie.
He does but is not that obsessive as Ben. He didn't like the sequel and while he wants to watch the live action movie, he prioritize the Forever Knight first and was disappointed with Ben that he chose to watch the movie over stopping the Forever Knight or supporting Julie.
I kind of agree with some of your points but there are some that I completely disagree
I don't understand why ben would teall julie about his omnitrix when he still barely knows her and in later episodes we find out that ben enjoys having normal live which is why he keeps this a secret
Also the scene with chromastone getting killed was supposed to be shocking and make us question what is his connection with diamondhead, so why would they tell us
100% felt this
I was still an immature kid when Ben 10 Alien Force premiered , whilst Ben 10 will always have a place in my heart I think it was around this time when Ben 10 stopped being my favourite show of all time. Ben just wasn't relatable to me anymore and he felt like a completely different character (ironic since I still remember the trailer for alien force saying "same old Ben")
Maybe you should watch it now, if you are a grow up man.
@@mayotango1317 But Why should they torture themselves for a guy who thinks Amon was cool 🤣🤣🤣
@@COrraThereal0ne At least I do accept new things. I'm not one of those who put the original series on an altar and complain about everything.
i think alien force should just have gone the original route without making ben stupid on season 3, but that was a decission by CN, thinking kids didn't like the show enough because ben was smart now.
however, i understand your points, and i must add some things to your ideas:
i think ben willingly stopping to use the omnitrix is better for the character arc of confidence you want, since the plot device of he himself not wanting to use the omnitrix, could represent how he doesn't want that big responsibility anymore, and when grandpa max disappears, having him more nervous about using it again without his mentor, would have shown even more lack of confidence.
Man.. ben should have stayed with july, when he wasn't stupid ben his relationship with july was really great.. letting her out in favour of a infance crush that never really liked him in the first place..
I don’t really agree with this video. The reason Ben doesn’t really grow in the first 2 seasons is because he had already done his growing in Ben 10 classic.
Season 3 should not exist in the first place, or if it did, without Ben losing all that character development
Edit: Though the story structure you suggested is cool, if that was how Alien Force was, I would be happy
For me a great error in UAF is how the show take himself to series, that turn into a great error in AF season 3 and great part of UAF. (And the great """flaw""" of UAF...THE FANDOM PAM PAM PAM! (dramatic thunder sound effect)
0:51 "A darker tone,..."
Shows a toilet.😆
I absolutely hated Gwen and Kevin being jobbers every episode. They become doormats even a weakling villain can beat, even though they have superpowers!!!
I felt that Alien Force tried way too hard to make Ben look awesome. Kevin was basically a glorified taxi driver (his new powers sucked) while Gwen just put up her shields to block enemy fire until Ben turns into an alien to beat up the bad guys.
@@coreofthesun4156 Exactly! That’s why episodes where they split up were so much better.
I agree I wish they stick with classic style
Bens Maturity as a character in the first two seasons of AF made sense in my opinion and was a natural evolution of the character, even though he still had a lot to learn because he was only 15 years old. The most disappointing part of AF in my opinion was that bens character growth was completely reversed in season 3 and that season is definitely not my favorite due to that reason. But AF is still enjoyable and in my opinion despite its flaws.
Ben was better in S3 because it kinda got boring. It was out of character. S3 was the best season of AF. But UA was the best series because it has the perfect balance of dark and funny
@@nehh_aksat season 3 was the worst. Direspected a lot of characters, and destroyed all the logic the series had.
here's an example of why season 3, the period where Ben actually has flaws this time, still feels off- the episode where the 'Rath' transformation debuts for the first time is about how their mission keeps going off the rails because of Rath's anger problems until he ends up being the one who fixes everything by giving in to his anger again. It's an episode where Ben is flawed, but the show doesn't use it to try to have Ben learn something or grow, it just turns that flaw into a good thing that helps the group, and I think the episode would have worked better if it was about Ben wanting to keep being Rath, even though his anger keeps jeopardizing the mission, until Ben realizes that he's the one screwing things up and relents, turning into a more suitable alien to demonstrate his growth. The episode tells me that season 3 gives Ben flaws, but still doesn't use them as a baseline to have Ben become a better person as the season progresses- his only real growth moment happens at the season finale when he sacrifices the Omnitrix.
I like the Reboot and the original and i feel the Reboot is a bit closer to the Reboot. (Excluding most of season 1. Omnitricked is the only season 1 episode that fills more like the rest of the series.). Oh and Glitch is great. Oh and some of the new villians are interesting with so much potential. And people don't seem to notice that the Reboot does have mature and dark moments not many but they are there. Oh and the alien worlds videos are useful and can't forget the movie.
@@lunakingsley.7247 I think it's the new art style and making the show more childish. If they kept the old art style and didn't make it childish, people might still be watching.
I heard(this was speculation) the reboot is still going because it's popular outside of America.
@@sirmel11 yeah. Although the artstyle isn't really bad. Although the artstyle especially in and with season 1 probably make it seem more childish then it is.
He couldn't transform into another alien at the time, he in fact tried to during the episode and it didn't work because of the Omnitrix's exposure to the Tiffon that they had on their ship.
@@Plasmaster I know that- what I'm suggesting is to re-write the episode so that Ben is actively choosing to be Rath instead of being stuck as Rath.
Dimond head wasn’t on accident btw it was the omnitrix’s failsafe to stop him from dying
It's from Season 3 and onwards.
Doesn't Kevin also like sumo slammers?
Yeah, he does.
I think that Season 3 should have put more focus on the "Alien Force" aspect of the title, where instead of it just being Ben, Gwen and Kevin as our main focus, we could have gotten "Team" episodes where Ben is working with the others or going off to recruit more to their cause. Perhaps even developing some of the One-Off characters we saw from the first two seasons in a more concise manner with their own character dynamics that they have to overcome in which they work well with certain people but not with others, hell even give some interpersonal relationships to them that they need to overcome or put aside for the sake of their jobs as heroes.
Some story beats that I feel would be interesting to read about would be the story of how Manny, Helen and Pierce wound up changing as they did to become more like their alien halves, or one where the Forever Knight Squire from the Dragon episode had another reappearance where he shares info to Ben about the nature of their organization and how it split from its intended goals so dramatically: that they originally served to preserve Humanity from the threat of alien life until they were sure Mankind was mentally-prepared enough to handle the wider universe without all of the baggage of their worldly concerns that can inevitably tear them apart. Or even a continuation of the JT and Cash redemption arc where they join up with Ben in fighting back against a more local threat and showing a deeper and nuanced side to them that both we and Ben never saw before but would be in-line with everything hinted at. Maybe even an episode centering solely on Ben and Ship where Ben grows to appreciate him more and more; eventually leading to Ship seeing Ben not as the friend of Julie, but as a father figure and how Ben would react to that sort of knowledge going forwards from there.
It would breathe in more mature themes and elements while keeping to some of the same spirit we first saw when entering the series.
While Ben did technically have a character arc, I do agree with the overall point. Alien Force Ben not only has a flat character arc, he's also a bland character. The decisions he makes and the lines he delivers could be said by a million other protagonists from children or young adult media. There's nothing that makes him particularly interesting or unique aside from his powerset, which is awesome but not enough (at least for me) for an older audience that expects more out of characterization and character growth. And I know tons of characters are similar, but I could give you distinct differences between Steven Universe, Aang, OK KO, and Finn the Human even if they fit many of the same archetypes. The plot of Alien Force is great, but the main characters (aside from Kevin) lose a lot of their spark and individuality
I respect that some people like AF and I will admit, there are things I like about it:
The serious tone, Ben acting more mature and leading his team, the High Breed arc, Professor Paradox was fun and some of the new alien designs were pretty good. However, there are some things I do not like about AF and UA:
The obnoxious romance between Gwen and Kevin. They took a great villain and turn him into a brooding bad boy stereotype, some of the retcons were unnecessary, bland character designs, Vilgax being overused (and his design and voice sucks) and The Ultimatrix exits just to sell more toys.
Yeah and he wasn’t the same Vilgax as we remember from the original series and I think they were trying to make him three dimensional which I don’t think it works and since I think he was meant to be like a force for Ben to overcome.
@@srstriker6420 Fun fact the vilgax we got in af season 3 was actually not what the writers intended him to be but the network ruined it
@@robertcagatin3690 really and was it the studio that hold back Steven Blum was returning to the role?
@@srstriker6420 Not sure about the voice actor changed but dwayne mcduffie had a different vision for vilgax but due to the network meddling we got a bland mashup of thanos and darkseid
It's kinda sad to think that the most hated version of vilgax was actually not what they wanted him to be
@@robertcagatin3690 well I thought they were trying to make Vilgax complex which I don’t think it works, like the saying that not characters are created equally and especially Aku in Watcher of 2000’s top villain video.
My main problem with alien force and ultimate alien is the fact that 95% of Ben's aliens are voiced by Dee Bradley baker. I miss when each alien had a unique voice actor attached to it (Yeah I know you have some exceptions like Steve blum voicing heatblast and ghostfreak, or Jim ward as XLR8 and diamondhead). Dee Bradley baker is a talented voice actor, but there's only so many voices he can do before you start hearing the same 4 voices for every alien.
Suck that they didn’t make its animated film like the classic. Saddens me
Classic was legend...
I do agree, first 2 seasons of Ben 10 Alien Force make him seem like a really competent superhero. It would have been a great ending to the show .
One thing I didn't like about Alien Force they always fight at night then day like the original Ben 10. I like fighting in the day. I don't mind both but it's always in the evening. This is more of a darker series.
Because teenagers go out at night, and aliens are a secret.
"Ben 10 AF isn't about Ben as a character" perhaps shows your ignorance on the series, I think, most of all. Season 3 and onwards, weren't great, so disregard those for a second. But the primary show - season 1-2 - showcase a natural progression from the classic series. Ben has learned to be a hero, and is now learning to become a leader. He has to learn, ultimately, that while he can accomplish a whole lot - he needs others to help him fight, not just support him on the sidelines. He learns to be stern like Gwen, cold like Kevin, and even inspiring like Max - these seasons are all about Ben learning to step up from just being another hero - and leading all the other heroes around him - and that's why I love Alien Force - that's why you'll get so much kick back, cause it doesn't seem like you understand AF - you have a great handle on the classic series, but... you don't seem to actually think about the character arcs you get here - from Kevin's learned redemption to Gwen's realization that she is "Lucky girl" (an incomplete character arc from the classic series - which is actually helped by the Retcon). No - they don't have as good chemistry as the Classic series.... but going from Great to Good isn't a bad thing perse - because Classic series was driven by characters being made and growing - AF is driven by established characters *reacting* to things. That's my take anyways.
As many issues as people take with Omniverse, and don't get me wrong, it's messy, I vastly prefer it to Alien Force because I can feel the passion the creators had for making an enjoyable show
Omniverse is a childish annoying show. Alien Force is epic like Young Justice.
@@mayotango1317 ok boomer
@@Scrombo2 OK. Manchild.
@@Scrombo2
Boomers > Zoomers
@@lowgunfire2671 what made you think I was a zoomer/didn't hate both zoomed and boomers?
Apparently the reason Ben became childish again was because the viewings where going down so they made him wore child like to try and get people back assuming that’s what worked. I loved the first 2 seasons of alien force and I hate what they did in season 3
That's probably a good thing
I kind of just wish they gave the aliens from the original series that didn't get to be used justice, a lot of aliens were forgotten about until Omniverse. I feel like Ultimate Alien is a lot better and has more character development than Alien Force
I agree with you on ultimate alien. To me alien force felt like they focus on kevin development. Also while I do agree ultimate alien is a lot better I still like the character dynamics in alien force.
Maybe so, but one thing I was annoyed with while watching some eps of Ultimate Alien was how the evil Kevin plot line was resolved too swiftly without Ben making much of an active choice to have mercy on Kevin, it was more like Gwen did a bunch of talking until Ben was like "...ugh, fine" when it could have been more about Ben and Kevin's rivalry/friendship with Ben realizing that he really does see Kevin as his friend as his big moment, and while the Ultimate Alien finale tries to have Ben be tempted by the allure of absolute power, I don't like how Ben's friends need to convince him to do the right thing, because at that point in the story it would have been more narratively satisfying if Ben made the right decision on his own.
@@Lavapasta yeah, in terms of character development the series can be scattered but the aggregor arc for example showed a lot of character development. A lot happened in that. I'd say my main problem with Alien Force is it wasn't as creative as the other series. The other series had more creative plots/aliens and though alien force introduced a lot some of it just felt like basic alien invasion, whilst omniverse and ultimate alien, and hell the original series experimented with parallel universes, time travel, different boundaries of the universe. They also experimented more with aliens inspired from monster movies in the original series, evolution transformations in ultimate alien as well as different anatomies in omniverse.
@@TechnicalDifficulties fair point, I can get behind that
@@Lavapasta I feel like they do too many "Kevin absorbs all the aliens and goes evil" episodes. Isn't there one every series?
AF is still my fave but you make sense
I think (regarding bens character throughout AF) that they realized they had spent the original Ben 10 building his character to be a better person. So if they portrayed him as snotty and cocky at the beginning of AF, the impact of his growth as a character in the OG would’ve been lost because it apparently didn’t matter. I felt that they needed him to start out kinda like a Mary Sue and lose that along the way before redeeming him to make since with his arc in the first show.
That's a great analysis.
(And it's leagues better than the actual analysis done by Lavapasta, if I may be frank.)
If only the writers didn't take Ben's regression too far in Season 3, that development might have been tolerable.
I’m just happy hearing Ben 10 discourse in 2021
My only problem with alien force and ultimate alien was that the those shows we're very dark and you could barely see anything (ben becoming a bit annoying In later seasons).
Compared to classic and omniverse it had way less world building and character cast. Omniverse while not amazing in terms of story in every season had better better equality of serious episodes.
In my opinion omniverse and Classic are better.
Because Day is for school, and night is for tennagers.
@@mayotango1317try to defend uaf so hard huh
I agree with some of your points but I respectfully disagree with your overall claim. I think that Alien Force was a good interpretation of a much more responsible Ben forced to grow up a lot more at age 15 because of his years as an arrogant and brash kid at 10-11, based on what he's learned. Ben in Alien Force is similar to that of a FLAT CHARACTER ARC, someone who's already perfect enough and doesn't have to learn as much or grow because of the things they've already achieved before. Instead they change the world around them and the people within. He can still have problems or make mistakes but they're always more understandable and remedied. This is why in season 3, it ruins it by having Ben act like a brat after all that character development and growth, and not even how he does it in classic series. He sounds like a dumbass kid voiced by a grown ass adult. It's like if Peter Parker in Spectacular Spider-Man went from that to Drake Bell in.....Drake and Josh. It clashes badly, but it's not because of the first half's fault.
The focus being on Kevin and some of Gwen is where the show really takes the cake, it's focusing on things like criminal reform, future identities, racism, xenophobia, quantum physics, date rapists (morning star) and in terms of character dynamics goes from family archetypes to learn from, to comedic banter with clever dialogue and insightful interactions. Dwayne Mcduffie put a lot into this show like he did with Justice League and it clearly shows. Even in Omniverse, while he does slip into a childish archetype at times, he's practically self aware and can just joke about what the bad guys will do when consistent.
What I will say is the Alien X episode criticism is a fair argument, I do wish that they went into the more argumentative political side of how Ben convinces Bellicus and Serena to let him go to save the earth, changing them and himself, rather than just bickering and then insulting them to escape. It just feels contrived and a weird episode for the introduction of Ben's most powerful transformation ever. But that episode doesn't speak for the rest of the series. Neither does the 3rd season which I will say is terrible in how it muddies the plot and characters.
Call me crazy, but I think I like Ultimate Alien Force more than the classic series (in opinion). The Original is OBJECTIVELY better, obviously, but the way how the franchise just gets more into the characters and new style of things really feels more encapsulating to a broader audience. Rather than the original telling lessons and stories that I now can see coming from a mile away. It's a great series, but some episodes can be predictable or just plain baffling.
I loved Ben AF
I kinda wish Ben 10 had the same character development as spectacular spider-man
It's not a claim, an opinion
Ben's real problem in UAF and OV didn't came from himself. It came from the creator's love to centralize more the deuteragonists, such as Gwen and Kevin in UAF and Rook in OV, and not giving Ben enough screentime for himself. That's what made him unintentionally unlikable.
They also wrote him a lot dumber, meaner, and more simplistically in those later series'.
they tried to keep ben acting like a kid when the whole point of uaf and ov was kid here all grown up that is why ben suffered post original series they changed him, but then didn't want to commit to said changes
5 years csn change people for me first 2 af seasons were the most enjoyable
One thing I do agree with is the art style, its pretty stiff and boring compared to the OG series and
Unfortunately season 3 of Alien Force had some corporate meddling involved. The reason Ben regressed back into an immature jerk? Because the network said they'd sell more toys to kids if Ben acted more like he did in the original show. The writers of the show did manage to find some good in-universe reasons for Ben's change in character but that doesn't mean it still doesn't bother me when I watch episodes from season 3 onwards.
Yed your right apprently eerily on in session 3 Kevin was going to go evil from the godtgresk
I think his change worked from a narrative perspective he just saved the world he feels great it goes to his head. Then villgax attacks he wins gets even more arragant
Just shows only the last airbender is a perfect show and that is partly an accident.
And respectfully I disagree. I love the first two seasons of alien force and I feel the third is kinda the worst by reseting him.
To continue your metaphor He isn't superman or Shazam in alien force his Spider-Man. Knowing he need to be better and accept responsibility for his mistakes. Without being a total loser in his own life, like he kinda was in classic eg not getting on that baseball team, being too short for the water slide, being obsessed with cards to the point he almost values someone's life under the card.
As for flaws There's still some implusiveness to early alien force Ben. Here's where:
His first thoughts about any new incident is his grandpa despite lacking any evidence for that conclusion.
Plus his monologue at the end of all that glitters.
He is also somewhat impatient and as he says in the pilot "paranoid", being the one to wake up the robot dragon by a clumsy accident.
His always quick to fight and point fingers rather than talk or understand. In Everybody talks about the weather, the new trio just engages despite clearly being in the vicinity to hear the heatblasts concern for the knocked out police officers. Notice ben says "had enough?" Instead of "Stand down".
Ben is likely more mature than the average teen as it seems he doesn't actually have friends. Like at all even in classic and omniverse his family makes up most of his social circle. Clearly he spent most of his time with Gwen and Max post summer.
I also think your idea of linear character progression is limiting and outdated. In classic we see Ben 10 thousand has grown into new flaws dismissing his family, giving no one any respect, isolating himself etc. So growing into over confidence as you say I think continues that path. However I don't think season 3 progresses his character so much as turns him into that average teen with really no progression or event to cause it. A hero that becomes arse because of his power is something new but this isn't that, it's executives trying to boost numbers instead of caring about quality.
They do trade away the power fantasy for spy thriller. I think that the crux of your problem. I had a similar problem with omniverse until recently.
I also don't think a story has to be about it's protagonist. Pokemon, Tenet, the Handmaids Tale, the Lorax are all examples of that.
This is a very well written defence of Alien Force Ben.
.
Personally I think that by himself, he’s fine as a character and I understand what Alien Force was trying to go for. But he doesn’t feel like the same person anymore - people do indeed change over the years but I doubt that Ben would lose his core traits of being slightly cocky, impulsive and generally fun-loving. Especially since he is a teenager.
Now I’m not trying to defend Season 3 Ben either, quite honestly he felt more immature than his 10 year old self and the writers definitely overdid it. What the writers did not understand is that cockiness does not equal to immaturity. Ben is definitely capable of being cocky and mature at the same time.
Alien Force Ben felt more like a serious, introspective and slightly awkward teen when really, Ben would probably grow into a confident, fun-loving teenager with a touch of arrogance, but someone who does recognise the gravity of the situation and gets serious when he needs to. There were moments where Ultimate Alien and Omniverse nailed Ben as a character, but more often than not he either came off as silly and aloof, or overly serious to the point of being slightly edgy.
When season 3 came out the original story was scraped because of cartoon network being a jerk it was supposed to be the same,but changed.Also I love the style of alien force it gives it a darker feel when sometimes it doesnt look good it can also.
Lies
@@schemar17 Yeah, he's right.
There were some other plans for Season 3 but CN messed up.
They had plans for season 3 of alien force but Cartoon Network made them turn his character Personality back to how he was in Ben 10 classic season 1
The reason for Ben's character regression in season 3, was because of a network mandate to make the series more like classic, because the toy sales werent as high.
i think alien force was pretty good. not every character development ends up in the hero being a mature one. i've never seen in a show where they actually make the character more ignorant other then ben 10. just like in real life some people don't just stay as a good person.
Ben 10 alien force is better than the original
@@nathanielpettersen2560 edgy maybe but better no
well my problem with ben 10 along with other today super hero shows, is the comic book style writing formula it takes from previous eras of hero fiction. Its like todays writers, cant write a unique story of their own which can connect to target age audience.
I think this may stem from the fact that many of todays comic book writers are people who lack social skills or let alone have less experience with the outside world. They get their ideas of writing comic book characters from stories they have read in other fiction instead of basing their own fictional characters based on their own personal experiences through their own life stories or from meeting other people.
This is how stan lee was able to think up peter parker by basing his character design on someone he knew.
Wait, I think saying "Ben 10", meaning the franchise in general, is kind of illogical. Ultimate Alien and Alien Force really have issues but Classico and Omniverse are just great.
What about Danny Phantom?
@@Deckkkkkkk
Classic and Omniverse have their own baggage of issues. Don't treat them like Sacred Cows here.
That's really interesting, I definitely agree
Season 3 was not originally supposed to have a worse ben but yeah they try to make him more like his ten year old self to appease the audience
I really liked AF, especially Season 1&2. People like to say OS was better but I do wonder about that because Ben himself was constantly reset to relearn the same lesson again and again, I think AF was a good Sequel where ben stayed more consistent. Until the Cartoon Network Executives ruined it by making Ben regress to his 10 year old self mentally in a 15 year old body.
Alien Force was probably my favorite Ben 10 show growing up, but I think the show would be nothing without the context of the original series. The reason Ben’s character in AF doesn’t really bug me is because his personality shift feels natural based on his adventures and the influences he had in his life. I think Ultimate Alien tried to split the difference on stoic Ben and ego Ben, but not to great success. For me, AF was more an evolution of the universe and not the evolution of a person, so I see your argument.
I really like alien force. Not as good as the original but i like it. i like the points you made here though.
I remember fuming in rage seeing how much retcons and pretentious conversations this sequel force-fed me. UAF was a dark era for me.
Cof Omniverse cof
@@mayotango1317 Yeah that too, but at least Omniverse had the decency to undo Some of the garbage AF did.
@@GC-Shadow1327 It wasn't worth it. It all feels gimmicky and hardly affects the plot afterwards.
@@mayotango1317 At least omniverse is fun
@@COrraThereal0ne No for me, is more cringe.
The end of the highbreed arc is very bad. Out of nowhere the Omnitrix has an ability that we've never been introduced to before, and out of nowhere the Highbreeds become good. Also, the Highbreed who accompanied Ben on that planet full of monsters appears again out of nowhere to give a speech, that character had a lot of potential to be further developed but they didn't give him any time, and they only used him as deus ex machina in the end.
Is better that Ben as a idiot sidekick in Omniverse.
@@mayotango1317 rook is better than trying to be cool guy kevi
Why did Ben give up his powers at the end of the original series?
Malware.
This guy should really talk to Kuro The Artist
kuro is an ultimate alien stannie and honestly alien force was trash compared to ultimate alien (read: ultimate kevin arc made me cry)
@@dezzydream
Ok, ok no need to be so mean I was just saying the two would make a great debate episode
@@Omnitrickster0207 ah that makes more sense.
@@dezzydream Other way around fanboy.
@@shadowyghost2330 who you calling fanboy i'm a girl
As I said before, if you want to see Ben growing even further than how he is in Alien Force season 2 then you can read The Incredible Muffin's fanfiction Ben 10: Unlimited and its sequels.
I remember watching ben 10 as a kid, and enjoying it a ton, but then alien force came. While I enjoyed alien force as a kid, I was shocked on how much the show changed, it just
didn't feel the same enymore, so i would often rather watch the original than alien force.
Because everything changes in 5 fucking years
It is still my favorite
I'm pretty cool with his personal opinions; even as someone who thinks AF and UA are perfectly fine. But low-key I cackled when he said he'd "Rather watch Omniverse," Then I was like "Let's not take it that far."💀
omniverse is great
@@kermitgotthesickkicks4265
No it's not.
@@lowgunfire2671 yes it is, lots of great ideas and fun episodes. And at least I could see what was going on 💀
@@Mal-go5dl
Well I personally couldn't enjoy any of it due to Ben acting like a dickhead all throughout.
My main issue with alein force and ultimate alien is the animation. The characters are so static and stiff, they barely emote 90% of dialogue scenes are them standing straight moving their mouths with barely any facial expressions. Going from classic and omniverse to these two is very underwhelming, when speaking about the animation.
exactly you get it
Stunning visuals isn't all there is to a good story, you two.
@@lowgunfire2671 While somewhat true, I never brought the story up, so how is it relevant?
I personally love alien force because of its darker tone
Dude alien force is my favourite series! I liked the responsible ben and also my childhood crush, Gwen and the absolute madlad Kevin lol. Nothing compares to AF and UAF. Those shows were so emotional and helped to devolop my own character!
4:47 Here is the thing, the did have a plan that involved Ben staying mature and dealing with more challenges, but the network insisted on the creation of what we know as season 3 because they are idiots.
Because they wanted to boost the ratings of the show and sell more toys Cartoon Network doesn't care about making good shows these days
@@robertcagatin3690
Yep.
This is one of the reasons I started a rewrite series that starts after the events of Alien Force season 2.
Ben being painted like that is because of all the stuff he did as a kid, he’s known as a legend. But as alien force shows and continues to show through its run is that Ben has flaws. Take the forever knights episode in season 1 Ben is shown at points to be full of himself before he wins against the hybreed. But Ben isn’t a perfect hero and is only painted as such due to what he did as a kid. We even see Ben has trouble dealing with the hybreed in the beginning, but learns not only how to use His aliens but also his brains to think through the problem. It’s in season 3 where Ben has been praised to death gets a big head that we see he’s grown way to confident in his abilities. Argo his most harmful flaw is shinning through even more. Ben no longer needs to know how to be a better hero he’s not just starting out. It’s about him stepping up to the new and bigger challenges ahead and over coming his biggest flaw, his ego.
I think you went into too much detail. Just have Ben start the series with his season 3 flaws. He'd obviously be overconfident after unlocking Way Big and saving the Galaxy from Vilgax.
I usually don't watch reviews before I finish shows but 6 eps into Alien Force I literally started to get sick. Classic Ben was cool in 05 and holds up today, AF is boring AF (pun intended). It's like they were looking for a new audience or something, they changed everything.
I don’t have a problem the with the artstyle it’s better than Omniverse