1) Join my new FSA Education online community for adult survivors on SUBSTACK at familyscapegoathealing.substack.com/. Subscribe for free to receive my FSA-related articles or become a paid subscriber to access Community features where you can engage with other FSA adult survivors via Group Chats and Discussion Threads. 2) Purchase my introductory book on Family Scapegoating Abuse (Rejected, Shamed, and Blamed) via this Universal Buy Link, which includes links to Amazon: books2read.com/intro2fsa.
At 63, I'm just now learning about what I went through as i grew up. I realized that I am an empath, I can feel if I'm liked or not liked by someone rather quickly, and I quickly decide if I like someone or not.
I have a chapter on being the Family Empath in my introductory book on FSA - also, a video here, search on the home page of my channel on 'Empath' and it will come up. Here's a survivor Resource list I put together in case you need more support: www.scapegoatrecovery.com/updated-fsa-recovery-resources-2023/
I know very much what you mean about this, because I am 61 years old and am just now getting a handle on what happened to me in my family of origin. I am now working on myself with help of the wise and gentle counselors found on the UA-cam. I am particularly grateful to Rebecca Mandeville for her caring counsel and listing of resources valuable to help me forward on a healing path. Many blessings and peace moving ahead.
There is a quote by the poet Charles Bukowski that I'm sure many FSA adult survivors can relate to: "Sure I like people. I just feel better when they're not around..."
I totally agree. I’m the same way. I’ve been traumatized by family members and then gravitated towards familiarity,thus recreating more trauma bonding. I now feel happier when I’m just with my cats,but it ebbs and flows with my need for attachment.
@@truthlove607I’m allergic to cats and dogs- and animal dander and pollens- It’s wonderful to have pets and also go take care of plants and garden etc., you are never alone when you have a pet.
@@melliecrann-gaoth4789 Yes,taking care of any living thing is an act of love and creates a strong bond/connection with creation itself,which surpasses human dynamics.
They’ve trapped me and I almost can’t take it anymore. It’s a very dark side of this life to have to live as the scapegoat. These malignants are so ruthless.
So very sorry to here this. Glad you're here. Linking you to my resource list for FSA survivors for more education and support: familyscapegoathealing.substack.com/p/resources
Both my parents are narcissists. At a very young age i was the first child of 4 that became aware and hense the truth teller. My parents divorced. I became my Mothers scapegoat and my Father's golden child. My 3 brothers were forbidden to have a relationship with me by my Mother. After her passing my Father then turned me into his scapegoat. My 2 sons have been drawn into this disturbing cycle despite my attempts to keep them from the dysfunction. At 58 i have withdrawn myself from all of them hoping to find some kind of peace on this earth. Such a sad story....Thank you for your video's. They help me feel less alone and validated.
You have very good insight into these complex dynamics. I do have a narcissist family system-focused playlist on the home page here, and you may want to pick up my book as well, if you haven't yet (Rejected, Shamed, and Blamed).
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse Thank you! And the same to you! Hopefully, the more we understand and talk about this, the better we can heal, and, try to break the cycles that lead to this.
I am six years into my healing journey. Someday I might figure out my family system, brother narcissist who controlled everything that fed his obsessive compulsive money hoarding. Watched him neglect and abuse our elderly blind mother causing her intense emotional pain and miserable death. I did everything in my power to try and help her, she begged me, but my brother relentlessly scapegoated me, projecting his evil intentions onto me. I'm lucky to have lived through this, but my trauma burden is high, dx of PTSD. I experience disassociation, but it a necessary protective factor, I am thankful my brain shuts down. 6 years of intense counseling and I feel like I've only scratched the surface. No contact 6 years too, best choice I've ever made. Hard to feel connected to reality when my entire first 50 years were in a faux family system. Dog and pony show.
Dr. Manderville, this topic was very, very profound. I'll have to watch it several times to really absorb it. A few years ago, my therapist told me, "Yasmine, based on the confrontation letter you wrote, your family is very enmeshed. How your fathers sees you is how everyone else sees you." She never mentioned the word scapegoat, but as I continued to become more trauma informed and started researching topics on family systems, I began to connect the dots...my poor father is indeed a narcissist and so are several of my siblings.
Hi Yasmine, you have worked very hard to understand the dynamics driving the scapegoating abuse directed at you. Connecting the dots and getting those "A-ha!" moments can be a very powerful experience during the FSA recovery and healing process.
So profoundly disappointing & life altering it is I’m sorry you, myself and others have suffered from these nasty family dynamics. The toll it takes on a growing child developing into an adult that many times attracts the same blueprint we grew up with until connecting the dots. We stop making excuses for the way our bosses, family, “friends” & spouses treat us we slowly heal enough to write a new script taking full responsibility for protecting ourselves and removing ourselves from any and all dark dynamics. I just wanted to say that’s classic narc parental control. “You must believe as I do about who’s good who’s bad or face the bullying they join in on with your propped up house of cards father to dismiss and/or gang up on you. It’s pathetic & disgusting. You know it’s not an unreasonable “fantasy” to think that your family wants the best for you especially as an infant, child or young/old adult. You cannot live in their fantasy because that’s what it is. Make believe BS. Hang in there. ❤
@@Lilrumbles hi!! Thanks so much for all of the things you've said. Those words from my therapist were spoken to me 9 years ago at the beginning of my healing journey because my family made me feel crazy. It pushed me to therapy. I'm passed "hanging in there". I've done my work and I'm thriving at this point in my life. I'm in grad school, I became an author, I'm a active member in my community, in my church, I have a cooking show, and I'm OVER my family. I love them but I don't like them. They don't get me. We don't have the same heart or the same perspective about life or about the world. They are NOT my people. In fact, after understanding family systems and generational dysfunction, I feel for them. If I had to go back, as painful as it was, I would be the scapegoat all over again because it has made me resilient. Scapegoats have the heart of Christ. I've dropped that false narrative and I've embraced my true nature; loving, kind, friendly, giving, intelligent, funny, social, cultured, and so much. I'm a recovering scapegoat and the experience forced me live my life outload, unafraid, and unashamed.
This often becomes abundantly clear when one does a family genogram; the patterns are so evident, it can help one to see how these behaviors of scapegoating abuse and other dysfunctional behaviors are passed down from generation-to-generation in a dysfunctional family system (some narcissistic family systems as well).
It makes sense now that my mother and maternal grandmother were so scared of me becoming a slut, that they basically made me seem like a slut to a man I cared for a great deal. I believe my grandmother may have been a prostitute, and my mother was shamed into despising all thing sexual because of it, which frankly really destroyed my ability to understand and enjoy it. It just simply 'didn't exist'.
There are many unknown, insidious forces that drive what I named 'family scapegoating abuse' (FSA) - and this is confirmed in my years of research on this subject.
Thanks Rebecca you have explained the different types of family systems in plain English for lay people to understand. I really appreciate this because our therapists and the educational system here does not explain any of this information. I feel we are very behind in our treatments for adult survivors so your psychological education is very well received. I had a covert mother & a sociopathic father that played all their children off each other. I have no contact with any of my family because I need to keep mysef safe from the illusion of a happy family. My struggle is with the services that are supposed to help people like me because they are very out dated and closed off to new research; maybe they are full of narcissistic professionals? They seem to be stuck on the concept that parents who are traumatised will traumatise their children which is not always the case. I am an adult survivor of sexual abuse and I have not abused my children & I have my own research on other adult survivors. Our trauma gets extended because not only did our family abuse us but our services also jump on the train wagon by falling into the shared psychosis of our family systems. I feel that I should speak up about this issue in Ireland but at the moment I don't even know we're to start? Hopefully by sharing your videos the people who are supposed to help us will re-train and up skill their services.
Nicola, your observations are both accurate and astute. I am making a note to do a video on the following (quoting from your comment): "They seem to be stuck on the concept that parents who are traumatised will traumatise their children which is not always the case" - Well said, and thank you for being here and sharing your experience, insight, and wisdom regarding FSA.
Thank you so much for speaking out on this. I have spent 49 years wondering what was wrong with me. Now I know it wasn’t me. All the signs were there but I didn’t want to believe it, I wanted to find out why? Now I know they enjoyed it.
@@tracysiegner1358 I think that is human nature asking why and people looking for solutions- I did that for decades- and in relationships beyond family- I’ve experienced unpleasantness, to put it mildly- and now I can say to that also, they did it because they liked it.
Yes! I have been fruitlessly searching for information on this. I know a situation where the child/sibling is a narcissist, but claims every one around them is a narcissist/dysfunctional or abuser of some sort, & that they are the (perpetual) scape goat.. it took me a long time to understand what was actually happening.. haplessly naive, i was.
I love this channel, and in re: to this particular question, another UA-cam therapist, Dr. Ramani has been specializing in narcissistic abuse and indeed has done a video (actually a few videos) on a narcissistic sibling. I know because I had one. I say “had” because she has now since passed away. I support I still have one, but her narcissism is now waaaaay in the background.
Of 6 girls and 1 boy, my brother was the only one who I could trust back then. Recently, he joined the rest of the family by telling me " mom never would do all of those mean things to you. She never treated me like that".
This can be so very painful - having the one "ally" in the family turn on you. For many, it can understandably feel worse than the expected / anticipated scapegoating of the other family members.
Thank You Dr. Mandeville for listening to my problem. I feel validated. I was told by mom, sis & rest of family I was crazy for over 50 yrs. I am 65 now. Everytime I tried to go back around them hoping for good things to happen, they only got worse. Thank You again ❤
I watched your video about the Martyr Parent Ploy. I enjoyed it. I left a comment the other day about my mom not having an infant photo of me in any of the photo albums. You are the Amazing Voice for any Scapegoated kid. I rushed to get married to escape the abuse only to marry an abuser. When he died, my family returned, bringing the chaos with them all over again. I am strengthened from every video you send us. I am reading the article you sent me right now. I cannot say Thank You enough ❤ I am just learning there is a name for what happened as a kid up til last yr.
In my case, it was intentional. I was chosen as the most likely candidate to be devalued, demoralized and singled out because I was aware and sensitive, logical and fair-minded. I was too aware so I had to be managed downward. I became the dumping ground for their unresolved inner blame and shame. I felt like an animal at times and as a young teen, I sometimes reacted to their insults and assaults like an animal. My parents were covert communal narcissists. For me, entertaining the notion that it wasn't intentional doesn't wash. I won't absolve their behavior that way. It was too specific to me and too chronic. It's dogged me my whole life. It was layered in with good behavior from them too, optics as you say. They hid what they were doing from others. They hid some of it from my siblings but let them hear just enough to convince them too that I was unacceptable, tainted. They lied about me to me and to other people. I believed I was "rotten" a "creep" "gutless" "garbage", etc. because they wanted me to believe those things. They needed a fall guy to expel their insecurities out of their own systems and onto a child who had no idea what they were up to. They didn't plot together but enabled each other. I believed what they said about me. It was hard to live with those bizarre judgments hammering me down. With comparison to the monster they made me out to be, they could burnish their own reputations as saintly, salts of the earth. It continues to this day. But I got out. Miles to go but I got out. Thanks for speaking about this subject. My life was saved by people in this community sharing their experiences so thank you to the community as well.
So glad you are here, Lorna. As I mentioned in this video, and in past videos, my articles, and my book, Rejected, Shamed, and Blamed, those who are scapegoated within a narcissistic family system will typically experience severe psycho-emotional abuse that is indeed conscious and intentional, when the scapegoating is driven by narcissistic parents (whether overt or covert). Siblings are often inoculated / indoctrinated into the false 'scapegoat narrative', and will go along with this narrative to remain aligned with the parent and avoid the same treatment the 'scapegoat' in the family receives. Clinically, there is often no way to recover and heal from this unless contact with abusive family members has ended. Thank you for sharing some of your story.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse Thanks for your reply because it reaffirms my decision to never talk to my three siblings again at 49-yrs-old even though I've lived 2300 miles away for decades. It took until my mid-40s for them to come out of their secretive HATER CLOSET (looking back, a few red flags and orange flags until the worst happened). Then I found out who they REALLY were and I'm never talking to them again
Like yourself, they have quite a few things to be embarrassed about in their past but it's like they take it out on us scapegoats trying to exaggerate flaws we have or make mountains out of molehills with things just to feel superior
@@NoMoreMrNiceGuy2003 It's a decision of last resort but you make it in order to save yourself. When others refuse to stop their abusive ways, you sometimes have to make it stop. It's not ideal but you can make it work. It's eventually pretty wonderful making it work.
My therapist never addressed how my family was dysfunctional and how that impacted me. I am hard pressed to say what we talked about. Yes, I talked about my family, mostly my mom, but she never explained my issues the way Rebecca does. I felt nothing was happening. I talked and never heard that my family may have been unhealthy.
Hi Nancy, sadly, this is not uncommon. In-depth Family Systems training is not a requirement with all licensing types here in the U.S. It tends to be LMFTs and LCSWs that have this in-depth training. For example, in my licensing program to be a LMFT, we had to do our own (Bowenian-style) family genogram and look for behavioral and emotional patterns going back four generations. Whereas I have had Psychologist friends of mine tell me they only had to take one brief course in Family Systems and they know very little about how to work in a family systems-informed manner.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse Thank you. I did a Google search looking for a family systems therapist. Articles came up on the subject but no list of therapists. How do I find a qualified person? I put my name on your waiting list about 6 months ago, but I am not great at technology so maybe I didn't do it correctly.
Nancy, I don't see anyone on my waiting list with your last name. I'm doing Single-Session Consultations now you might want to check out as my waiting list has become prohibitively long as I inch toward semi-retirement. More information here (people have been loving this service, btw.) www.scapegoatrecovery.com/scapegoat-recovery-consultations/ If you prefer to stay on my waiting list just use the Contact link on this same page and let me know and I will bump you up since you tried to get on it 6 months ago.
I'm inspired to share a Doc Holiday quote, paraphrased, "In order for me to feel offended (or hurt or devalued), I must first value your opinion.". I reached the point where I don't care what they or anyone else thinks about me. I'm a good person and I'm not perfect, but I like me. Rebecca, thank you for helping me grow! 🤗
It's one thing to not be offended when they're having opinions about you that are not true. But it's a whole other monster when they're trying to smear you with slander. It's pure evil
@@NoMoreMrNiceGuy2003yes that is different and very difficult. If it was a non- family member, I wonder would we consider the laws about slander and libel?
The siblings of the scapegoat in narcissistic families are often narcissists, so of course they go along with the narrative. It’s madness and there’s no allies for the scapegoat in these families. The scapegoat is usually the one who held onto their true self, their soul survived the abuse, they are the strongest child. The narcissistic siblings had their spirit broken, and then they assigned a false self to compensate.
Well said. Thank you. I discuss this in my book, in fact - and I agree: "The scapegoat is usually the one who held onto their true self, their soul survived the abuse, they are the strongest child."
My family pretty much had it all, parents were both alcoholic covert narcissists, my mom being the stronger one, and a sister who grew up to be an overt narcissist. I think they all genuinely believed the family delusion and were aware enough to manipulate it to be more and more advantageous to them. My mom ended up writing a whole fictionalized memoir about her side of the family, to try and convince me that the whole thing was because of intergenerational trauma and wasn't her fault and she was helpless in the face of it all. This in spite of the fact she did a lot of deliberate financial and emotional abuse, and frequently displayed sadistic glee in inflicting pain on me. She loved getting away with stealing from me and lying to me. She hid behind intergenerational trauma in the end. All it really did was create a huge, incoherent snarl of motivations, and the fact she deliberately made it so confused just demonstrated to me how responsible she was. She wasn't interested in the truth but overcomplicating things so that the truth would never be known, and that in itself is damning. Thank you for saying intentions don't matter. They absolutely don't. It's important to untangle but not in order to participate further.
My parents are both narcissists who were narcissistically abused by their parents as well as dealing with the other generational trauma side of it as well. My father is malignant and my mother is covert/vulnerable. I'm their traumatized, abused, hsp, truth teller daughter. It's been hell. I was also parentified without emotion and mental support while being the scapegoat. I'm 35 now and still can't physically or financially escape, because the stress of it has broken my body physically to disabilities now.....even though I'm listed as my mom's caregiver and help out them without getting my needs met. It's hell. So much suffering and I spend all my energy trying to triage my pain. I don't even get to do things I want or need. I'm existentially exhausted and in constant pain. Each time I reach for help I just keep getting burned and it becomes more exhausting due to just more pain. Thank you for at least seeing us. It sucks anyone has to live like this, the fact there are many should terrify people into more actions of healing. No human should have to suffer so needlessly.
I agree. Thank you for sharing some of your experiences of FSA. I'm sure many here can relate. I have a video here on scapegoating and chronic illness, in case you missed that. Video link here: ua-cam.com/video/ytSdn8nQCBg/v-deo.html
you are so right about learning about the psychological part of being scapegoated. i've learned a lot which i believe helped me to understand the dynamics and can walk away. still hurts but makes sense.
Thamks for these videos Rebecca , fianally been able to breakaway from my family , thought when the head narc died it was over , i was shocked to see my other family members tried to carry the scapgoating on , ive now created physical and emotional distance, they try to project onto you your mentally ill to see you as the problem , regardless of the anger rage and control of the head narc , ive realised it never stops unless you stop it . Thanks for taking the time to make these videos 🙏
You're welcome, Chris. I'm releasing a 2-part video the next two Saturdays that I think you'll be interested in, based on your comment. I do discuss projection in it as well. Glad you're here!
Rebecca: I keep listening to your videos and now have your book to read. I am in a place finally (safe) where I can truly focus and heal. Your work brings everything, all of my life experience, together for me. I can now see how the fawn=submit trauma response, with surviving both a malignant and covert narcissist (martyr ploy) for parents buried who I am under their psychological, scapegoating waste. I have the deepest. heartfelt gratitude and respect for both you and the work you do. Listening from my soul, over and over to your calming voice, continues to bring more healing insights. Thank you thank you thank you The world needs you and your expertise to stop this victim blaming paradigm that narcissists use to get away with their family relationship crimes.
Pamela, thank you very much for acknowledging my work in this heartfelt manner. This was my hope when I published my book and recently, started this channel. Please keep me posted regarding your progress!
What do I do with all the HATE I feel about my female-parental-unit & the rest of the family who swallowed her bs for 60 years? She's still alive at 76 years old (only the good die young). I can only watch about 10 minutes of your lectures, then I need to stop & come back in a day or two.
I'm glad you step away from these types of psycho-educational videos when you need to. I can say that nearly all my clients / FSA research participants understandably pass through this period of hating their abusers. I don't promote the idea of 'forgiveness' for various reasons that I'll say more about later, but I do find that when my clients are able to fully grieve and fully feel and own their sense of 'righteous rage' regarding being scapegoated by family, as well as their grief, they are more able to move into 'radical acceptance' in regard to what happened to them in their families, allowing them to slowly begin to enter a place beyond the hate - and heal.
I don't know if this could help anyone but me but when I started to feel this way (still do sometimes but but less often) I'd imagine myself a sort of whirling ninja chopping off the body parts of abusers along with various other disturbingly violent kicks, jumps, and flips. My mind would get into the creativity of this and my feelings dissipate quite a bit. After a while I would say "not really, just figuratively" or some such (I'm not a violent person ☮) and go about my business. Then after getting bored with this schtick I'd begin to imagine them being carried away to outer space as if gravity got as sick of them as I was. Getting smaller and smaller as I passively watched. Now when these images come to mind I'm more likely to congratulate myself for them not being in mind previously, switch to another technique less about anger, or think about something more interesting.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse Thank you for your reply. After trying to watch many of your videos, I've come to the conclusion that I need to sit & talk with a professional. I'll still be watching your videos & reading your articles. Thank you again.
Good to hear. Do find a therapist that is trauma-informed, if you can. There is a international search function here on Dr Janina Fisher's site you might also try - you can search for a therapist trained in TIST therapy (as covered in past videos addressing Structural Dissociation and scapegoating abuse). Many therapists work online as well: janinafisher.com/search/
Sometimes both types of dysfunction can coexist within a family. That's what I think happened within my family of origin. When the narcissist is also an alcoholic, then you have the alcoholic family system, as well.
Yes, indeed. I mention that briefly in the video - I'll expand upon that later. That is why I said in this video that in a narcissistic family system, there may or may not be intergenerational trauma and there may or may not be the family projective identification process going on.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse For me it's been extremely confusing and painful that my family seems to be intermittently conscious and not conscious of their dysfunction and abuse. Conscious plotting that I'd become aware of would make me angry and defensive and feel like a wrong I could right, while cluelessness made me confused and depressed and gave me the sense I was somehow profoundly the problem. Learning about the unconscious component of my FSA was especially important to me. It has been easier to have compassion and walk away from something (two acts that can be oddly related) that is hopeless.
I believe this is also what I've been experiencing other than the alcohol use disorder is being experienced by the enablers - maybe narcissist sisters who seem to be taking our mom's place after her death to the extent that happens. They are certainly living her lies more than ever. (I think maybe they just don't know what else to do in a stressful situation but follow her ways; don't know if this makes them narcissists, narcissistic, or folks handling stress in unhealthy ways.) Anyway, I note your "I think." It sure is a confusing jumble.
Yes, that has been my experience, both personally and as a clinician. It is my experience that this type of psycho-education / awareness does assist in one's healing from FSA - even as steps are taken to protect one's self (including one's nervous system) from further abuse.
@@MF-my3db Also, regarding what you shared here, I discuss this somewhat in the Sibling Estrangement video I did a few months back. We know in family systems that after the death of a parent or family power-holder, the family unconsciously seeks to re-establish the family homeostasis - even if it was dysfunctional and harmful to its members. This is because change triggers a tremendous amount of unconscious anxiety in dysfunctional family systems so the siblings unconsciously seek to restore the 'old order' with a new sibling (or cousin, etc) power-holder who will behave like the dead parent. This is why siblings who may not have scapegoated before suddenly are saying the same things the parent said - they are carrying on the 'scapegoat narrative', which can come as a horrible shock to the FSA adult survivor, who thought they might be released from this role when the scapegoating parent died.
Great channel, thank you. The sadism you spoke of, along with the smirk, was enough for me to know my parents are narcissistic, and not just dysfunctional or toxic parents. I went no contact after seeing it clearly mid last year. My therapist is primarily using an intergenerational trauma framework, but from channels like yours, I've been bringing up these concepts into our sessions. Thanks for the mind opening concept, especially om FSA. Now, I have more of a deeper understanding of what I, until recently, had been going thru as a HSP.
Thank you, EV. Many therapists are happy to read my book (Rejected, Shamed, and Blamed) so as to better understand their client - you might mention it to her to see if she is up for that.
@@Clare-tea Yes, a family can be affected / negatively impacted by intergenerational trauma AND also have family members with NPD. Both scenarios can lead to the scapegoating of one or more family members. I call this "getting the double whammy" as related to FSA and mentioned this in a recent video, in fact. Great question, btw!
Thank you, Rebecca. My siblings seem to believe their false narrative (though hard to know what another person believes vs. what they skillfully cooperate with and comfortably lie about) and yet, also in my family, there is a clear narcissistic system with triangulation, a golden child, the whole spiel. Is this common?
Yes. Although I only mentioned it briefly in this video, the pathological Family Projective Identification Process can co-occur with narcissistic family processes, particularly in families with intergenerational trauma. For example, the narcissistic parent may also have been traumatized in childhood, and there may be intergenerational trauma as well, but not always. And, there are consequences from being 'the Golden child', of course - the child is objectified by the parent as a 'perfect' reflection of themselves, which may contribute to their narcissistic presentation as an adult. Being objectified, even as 'the Golden child', is a form of dehumanization - It is the flip side of being scapegoated, which is also a form of objectification.
Thank you Rebecca. I read both of your articles. It seems to me the scapegoating abuse came from every way possible in my family. Sobering. And sad. On the video 3 different word phrases you used resonates with me: "...as they start to understand " " when you can step back and look in an objective manner" and "you get to take some space from it." All 3 comments clearly state pivotal A-ha moments I have experienced. Thank you for sharing your life work with us. It helps ALOT. I appreciate your wisdom, knowledge, and understanding. I am grateful to be learning. Recently I was deeply encouraged as I read these words written 100 years ago by Geerhardus Vos: If only we will take the courage to fix our gaze deliberately upon the stern countenance of grief, and enter unafraid into the darkest recesses of our trouble, we shall find the terror gone, for the Lord has been there before us, and, coming out again, has left the place transfigured, making of it by the grace of his resurrection a house of life, the very gate of heaven." Happy Saturday, Jane
As always, thank you for sharing your own wisdom, Jane. I love this quote you share on grief. We are a grief-phobic society, and we all would be wise to embrace it and feel it deeply. Such a process is a critical aspect of healing from FSA.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse yes I have noticed people seem to run from grief. But for me grieving is a huge part of the process in coming to terms with FSA and the aftermath of trauma. Thanks Rebecca. Jane
@@janegreen5301 Grieving is hard for me not just because of our societal attitudes but because it was a family rule that "everything is ok" and "we are the best family." It was considered a virtue to keep problems to ourselves and to be not just happy but celebratory (of us) at all times and a failing, a character flaw, selfish even, to be sad. I'm going to go ahead and guess this is quite common in families who scapegoat.
Jane and MF: Next week I am doing a video on Disenfranchised Grief and Dr. Watson will be writing about grief and scapegoating on my blog - that's one week from today.
Another reason that FSA and FST are important is that they highlight the fact that emotional abuse can cause serious psychological injury. The most challenging consequences of any form of abuse is the psychological ones. It makes so much sense to study the impact of the various forms of emotional abuse. Without overt form of abuse, emotional abuse can be easily ignored in 'just' dysfunctional family. From your recent video on 'traumatic invalidation', we know how invalidation adds to the traumatic injury.
I agree, Anne. That is why I am now researching on, and defining, what I.named 'family scapegoating trauma' (FST); it is a blend of multiple types of trauma, which I will be discussing in a future article and video - and likely, my next book.
Hi doc, I finally after years looking for a trauma informed therapist. So I get one and she takes my coverage. I talk to her today for the first time and do my best to explain my situation and she says not one word. Nothing to make me feel better nothing. All she said when I asked her a question about my mother was, I’m not disagreeing your mother. I’m disappointed to say the least.
Oh dear. If you plan to continue, you certainly can ask that she give you more feedback. If you don't plan to continue, I do have a link to search for a TIST-trained therapist (a certification program via Dr Janina Fisher, who's work I often mention in my videos - and where I got my certification from to treat complex trauma). Let me know if you want it.
I just read your book rejecting shaming and blaming I cried that you explained me all the way.. I’m in Australia is there anyway I can seek therapy through you as not one therapist I have seen explains how I feel and can explain this family dysfunction I want to heal half my life if not more passed looking for help I want to enjoy my life but something is changing in me since the last betrayal of my mother she finally broke me and I’m loosing me
I am no longer taking weekly clients but am offering Single-Session Consultations. There is currently a 2 month wait or so. More information here: www.scapegoatrecovery.com/scapegoat-recovery-consultations/
This is the video that I've been needing to watch to begin to restore my sanity and begin healing. I knew a good portion of this instinctively but over time the family's narrative and their campaign to silence me when I attempted to talk about multi-generational trauma has beaten me down and confused me. I need to grieve that I've allowed this to happen and begin to find the skills to protect myself from letting it happen again.
So good to hear, Angelica. All the videos in this clinical series build on each other so I hope you get a chance to watch them all. Understanding what may have happened to them clinically and from a family systems perspective can be very helpful for FSA adult survivors.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse Indeed. The questions I posed in the comment section of your other videos are being answered as I make my way through the series. You have a gift, Ms. Mandeville. There’s something about your approach that I respect and appreciate deeply. Not sure how to encapsulate it but I can point out what stands out in the work you present. The rigor of citing your sources. The sense that you’ve done your own journey to find answers. Your respect for theories or practices rooted in curiosity and compassion.
With laser-like precision it's amazing just how well you _"get"_ all of this madness and are able to concisely put it into words. In past years I sought out therapy with therapists that had nearly no understanding of narcissism in general, or narcissistic family dynamics, to the point of which it felt like I had to indoctrinate them to this specific type of insidious abuse. _(This extra effort can be so very draining to those seeking validation and to be heard.)_ So glad to see that there's a newer bunch of therapists who are specializing in this _warped_ subset vs. the everyday, garden variety therapists. _(
I'd love an additional follow up to this! 😊❤ My mother is covert and she determined the narrative for the rest of the family. I think that my siblings might unconsciously be fearful of losing acceptance, and that is why they are more inclined to believe my mother. I think she trained them into denial, and to not ask questions. I noticed she will cover lies for my brother (make sure theres some back story) but not for my sister or I. As a kid, I would be sent to my room for "talking back," (not immediately dropping my experience to pretend that what someone else was asserting was truthfully what i experienced, when it most certainly was not! This was very confusing and infuriating for me as a small child.) My dad could see me, and he generally advised me to set aside my needs for the good of the family, so we could make it through the day. I know he would not have wanted me to understand that as giving up my needs, but that's what i did. I think this is a difficult topic because, as you mentioned in the very beginning, all narcissistic families are dysfunctional, not all dysfunctional families are narcissistic. I think that about halfway through, the language you use takes on a "this vs. that" category, and i lost sight of the venn diagram. 😂 The majority of the signs of a dysfunctional family were the same as my narcissistic family, except i dont think my siblings and Dad ever joined in on blaming me for their own problems. Although they would reinforce my mother's narrative, and they would pick the low hanging fruit, they did not go out of their way to create betrayals like my mother. My sister tried when she was a teen, we had fights over clothes and makeup. I later picked up that my mom was pitting she and I against each other, and had never modeled working things out amicably. My mother established the norms of communication in the system; or rather, the lack of communication. My siblings DO believe what my mother tells them, I did too, though. I do not think my siblings have splits in their identities, (at least, not my brother. Maybe my sister, she is in the bestie role) but I know my mother is solidly in denial. She has gotten physically aggressive when I refused to comply, she wanted me to lie to my son's school and it was so confusing; that would be that open vs closed system thing. We are decades from the timeframe when i was a small child, one she could physically intimidate into submission. Now when she lashes out, I tend to feel more like myself, less at fault, less frantic and freaking out, more calm and observant. When she shows her true stripes, she is illustrating to me I am not nuts, and it is a huge relief from all the pretenses and BS!! I am practicing saying "i disagree," with people outside of my immediate family. I came across the term selevtive mutism, the freeze i encounter when i am expected to defend or assert myself feels like it might be related. This inability has been getting in the way of things, lately.
I do cover dysfunctional family scapegoating abuse in detail in my introductory book on FSA - it's linked at the top of my resource page here ('Rejected, Shamed, and Blamed'): familyscapegoathealing.substack.com/p/resources
This is so interesting to me, because I feel I found here for the first time a more direct view on the whole family system not only at single roles. I think we have a mix of things in the family, but I´ll keep hanging in and try to understand more of this. It seems I am actually the scapegoat/invisible child/empath and my brother is: the parentified child, mistreated as a spouse surrogate after my father´s early death (planning/thinking through things, stuff like that in a way she couldn´t with my father actually), but he became also the power-holder (and towards me threatening, humiliating, sadistic)? I don´t think there were a person like this in the family before, so everyone was blind, unable to see through the facade, and was eager to like and support him. And I was like, no, that´s not happening, please anyone has to stop this... but noone did. I could hug you for saying is there a narcissist in the family who takes pleasure in deliberately torturing my client. 😭😭🙈🙈 I could only go off contact to both, first to my brother but later with my mother, too. She can´t see me, and I´m so burned out after all these years and years with them unable to see where my shame and feelings of guilt came from. I had to go through the world with this "everythings´s fine" facade and this invisible wall of glass I couldn´t break, this urge to confess to sth and didn´t know what sin. My mother is blind, even though she had one single aha moment 15 years ago after rehab when I was finally able to flee from home and still in rehab she decided out of the blue to sell the house as if it was nothing. But despite the changes she just fell into denial mode again and every conversation with her felt like I am SOMEone, but not part of this family, not her child. So if I listen to you talking about all these possible aspects so far I can only say: Yes, we have that, in different forms and represented by different family members. Thanks a lot, because I consider this to be my Happy without Mother Day gift from you to me!! 💝💝☺☺ Kind regards Betti
Hi Betti - Glad you found my channel. I can relate to so much of what you say (on a personal level) - many parallels. Do watch my video on being the Empath and scapegoated. Also, the video on Sibling Estrangement. You'll get a lot out of my Clinical series playlist as well - All are available on my channel's home or 'video' page. We have a nice community here also - check out the Community tab here on my channel as well. My book is called 'Rejected, Shamed, and Blamed' - Amazon has it internationally (including the paperback and hard cover version) as well as most major online book retailers. It will explain scapegoating and family systems more.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse "I can relate to so much of what you say (on a personal level) - many parallels." Oh, that´s fascinating! 😮☺Thank you so much for responding! I will, stick around and watch these and other videos, read some comments, usually write down a few thoughts for myself or others! I wonder what the covert narc Martyr video will tell me, that one caught my eye, too. 😅Let´s see what fits in the frame and what not so much.
@@011silbermondit is so helpful to be able to read and respond to comments. At last able to talk properly about this stuff- it’s like if you’re not an addict or chronically mentally unwell- it mustn’t have been/ isn’t that bad- also seems to me, many people can operate a dichotomy about what they professionally learn- and what they see and hear in every life.
My gosh....this has made sense of certain dynamics that didn't quite fit into parental narcissistic abuse for me. The closer I get to the truth the more profound these realizations are becoming. It's so disturbingly painful but also invalidating.
My dad’s 2nd & 3rd wives I believe had/have sociopathic features. Both slandered me within family and seem/seemed to enjoy my suffering. They both married my dad for money (primarily) and hated me because I was his firstborn from his first marriage. I was also super close to my paternal grandparents and their kids weren’t. My grandparents helped raise me. My dad would stand up for me as a little girl with 2nd wife.... but his 3rd wife has been able to turn him against me. She has also pitted their daughter (half sister) against me. They (mother & daughter) enjoy “tag teaming” me whenever I have visited my dad. It’s all these mean covert games that no one else sees.
Thank you so much! These videos are so very helpful. I don't think that I can ever "undo" anything, or change the way that anybody is, but it helps me to put things in their proper place. One thing, (probably the most significant thing), i've noticed has been my perception of myself as a child. I was far from a perfect angel, but it helps to put things into perspective. Over the years, some stories have been repeated over and over, but what was told was not what I remembered. One example: I have repeatedly been reminded of how I "stole" a book from the school library, when I was in first grade. It has always felt like a character assassination. What had actually happened was that i couldn't find a book I wanted to read, so it was handed to me, and I took it home, and forgot about it. I believe that what happened was that I was later told to clean up my room, so grabbed a pile of stuff, with the book in it, and put it in the closet. Later, the book was overdue, and I was called into the school office. I remember being utterly bewildered and terrified. I didn't know what they were talking about. My mother finally found it at the bottom of the closet, and it was returned. To this day, my mother recounts the time when I stole "How The Grinch Stole Christmas." I maintain that I misplaced it. I was careless; not a thief. It's not unusual for a 6 year-old to misplace things, and I never understood why I had to be painted as evil.
I have found that narcs are very boring people. They will downgrade someone else to others because they honestly do not have anything deeper to talk about. They get attention from this which elevates them in their mind and by putting you down,lying about you they also again elevate themselves. They are very insecure people. There is usually some envy involved.
I really need a therapist to work through this pain…. I’m just beginning to see or accept that this might be my unfortunate roll…. Can you provide resources where I can ring someone who specializes in family systems and FSA specifically? I hope you know I watch all your videos and you have helped me immensely. You’re so knowledgeable and you have such a soothing disposition and voice. I really appreciate you
Thank you. If you're in the U.S., #4 on this list I made may help you find someone. In general, Licensed Marriage, Family Therapists (LMFT) have the most training in Family Systems, and therefore 'should' have a general understanding of family roles, but it is always wise to ask: www.scapegoatrecovery.com/2021/09/08/10-self-care-tips-for-adult-survivors-of-family-scapegoating/
I found this a very interesting watch. I grew up in an abusive family and I have been scapegoated by my in-laws. I haven't had any family of origin for some time and because of this my only family connections have been with my in-laws. Listening to the video it feels that both narcissistic and dysfunctional patterns seem to operate with them. My father-in-law fitted many of the criteria of narcism - him being the power centre, an enabling spouse and fits of rage when faced with non-conformity. When he died I thought that the unhealthy dynamics would stop, but they have continued with the children and grand-children - and I understand why thanks to your work. However, the behaviours, whilst still abusive, seem to fit the dysfunctional family trauma model - in particular, me being the identified patient and the family projection process taking place is obvious. Is it possible that I'm seeing the trauma impact from a narcissistic parent being passed down the generations as trauma (without creating more narcissists)?
Astute observations on your part, and yes, this can indeed happen. We know via research that many narcissistic parents suffered trauma in childhood, and that there can be intergenerational trauma in their families as well. So both dynamics can be going on at the same time. That's why I continue to state that there are no 'always' / 'never' family dynamics. Each family is unique, and family systems dynamics are very complex, whether dysfunctional or dysfunctional/narcissistic.
My narc mother would not be caught dead going to a counselor, but she did have an affair with one lol! I am guessing he told her she was just perfectly normal to get what he wanted.
It’s amazing that for a lifetime the spouse and sibling can hangin with the narcissist. The spouse parent in my case wanted to do even more harm than the head narcissist. The only time my narcissistic mother saw a therapist was when my younger brother was told to, and my mother went to see the same therapist to try and find out what my brother had said.
Thank you so much again for your help and all the hard work and thoughtful and thorough research that you do about this terrible problem and abuse that's way too common . Your indepth and wise words that is really helping me with my pain from being my family's scapegoat. God bless you for caring snd wanting to help us all out here suffering under the pain loneliness and isolation of being the family scapegoat.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse I'm so glad that the help, wisdom and support and honesty that you give to all of us is helpful and rewarding for you too. God bless you 🙏❤️
Thanks for your video! Definitely food for thought. Trying to figure out in my own family structure. Definitely have one sibling who seems to have narcissistic traits but I think it's a mixture of people who believe her narative and others are go along to get along people (inlaws). I had a situation last night where I was staying home with my mom, taking care of her after the caregiver left while that sibling and her kid and this other person in the household who's her right hand person could go out and see a sporting event. They came back and I told them the space heater was tripping the power strip which was quite warm that it was plugged into and that it wasn't supposed to be plugged into it. A person with a background as an electrician warned us not to do that (but to put it in a wall outlet). So the right hand guy (who factors heavily into my family's dynamic) snapped back and said all you have to do is reset the switch on the strip. So he plugged the heater back in and did that. After that, the others thanked him for getting the tickets to really good seats at the sporting event and how good a person he was. Over something he did that was unsafe for the household but his behavior towards me and the backup that he received suits some purpose. But it made me think about this video and narcissistic vs dysfunctional. My sibling has some narcissistic traits but what I sense is fear rather than anything like sadism. Just a feeling. Even in Ordinary People, which seemed to be more narcissist (including before Buck's death), you have that moment when Beth shows fear when Conrad tries to meet her halfway. Your videos help a lot as they offer up a fresh set of lens to look at situations differently. Also that three generational chart seems like a very good idea! I study my family's history anyway so I think I'll try to do this.
A very insightful comment. As I often say (as a result of my having worked with hundreds of families as a Family Systems therapist), each family is unique in their dysfunction, and this is why I do not recommend a cookie-cutter approach for FSA recovery, nor use black and white thinking or 'always' / 'never' terms when discussing dysfunctional / narcissistic family systems / behaviors. You bring up a very important point in your comment here: Fear drives much of human behavior, including with narcissistic people. I liken it to the Wizard of Oz, when the dog Toto pulls back the curtain, revealing a scared little man pulling all kinds of levers in order to project power and maintain control. That describes the narcissist, to some degree - Ultimately, there is no there there.
17:12 "You can tell that the siblings REALLY REALLY BELIEVE these things about you. They're not pretending to believe it-- 'Okay, I'm going to go along with this FALSE NARRATIVE of my narcissistic parents to stay in good...' These things are traumatizing'" Agreed. But at least I found out who the secret haters were all along. I just had no idea it be people I grew up with 50 years ago until the last few years. I will no longer talk to my siblings EVER again. (I would demand a one-hour apology and an explanation why it would never happen again I'm pretty sure that would not occur if it were to go that far because I'm sure as hell not going to chase them for some sort of relationship)
I'm releasing a video Saturday that mentions the perils of re-engaging with family after ending contact. You might want to tune in. Another video here mentions narcissistic families and 'the repair fantasy'. BTW, in a narcissistic family system (vs dysfunctional) they don't always believe the lies. In fact, often they are deliberately creating them. Meaning, the Family Projective Identification Process is not always driving the scapegoating; narcissistic dynamics are.
Thank you so so so much for the work you do Rebecca!!! It is desperately needed by so many. Grinds my gears that a lot of so called 'psychological experts' don't seem to know about or understand these dynamics, or maybe they do and have been acutely aware of them, but choose to enable the abusers, and protect them, instead of calling a spade a spade, and helping the ones who have been subjected to this abuse!!!
You're very welcome. There is very little training in Family Systems for clinicians - Extensive training in this field is required in the U.S. *only* if you are planning on becoming a licensed Marriage, Family Therapist (LMFT). Family Systems and its impact on a child / adult child is often ignored for this reason, or, it is viewed in simplistic terms without awareness of multigenerational trauma and its impact on a family and the individuals therein, etc.
Wow, that was so clear. Thank you. Sadly, based on this, my family is both. They all really believe these things about me, there’s inter generational trauma, and our mom has the narcissistic traits you mention. Yikes ! I’ve known I’m the scapegoat. I left to go to college and never came back to my home town but that didn’t stop any of this. Im 70 now and just recently went no contact with two siblings. Would love to do so with my Mom but my sibs “dumped” her care on me. Not fun taking care of an abusive mother.
You got the 'double whammy' when it comes to FSA - In such cases, limiting or ending contact is the only way the nervous system has a chance to recover. I encourage adult survivors of abuse to prioritize their nervous system like it is the King on the Chessboard of healing and recovery. I hope you are developing techniques to take care of yourself while caring for your mother. I have suggested to clients of mine in your position to get air pods or similar and play music as much as you can to hold on to your own space and serenity and tune out any verbal abuse associated with scapegoating behaviors.
I know after listening to this particular episode that my scapegoating comes from a long history of generational dysfunction as opposed to narcissism, mostly due to alcohol abuse which they hide or live in denial of. I also feel it's more of a neglect issue than anything else. All healthy relationships require time & effort and if you're not willing to do that much then what is the point. I really wonder how many people remember always having to be the one to reach out and then finally giving up because no efforts were ever made in return. How many of you had to be the one that always called the parent but know if you didn't you wouldn't hear from them for months until the next special occasion? Or was it wrong of me to expect that they might care enough to call now and then just to see how I am doing? I actually got to the point that even speaking to my brothers made me nervous and that just isn't normal in my opinion. Anyway, great video once again. Thanks.
Well said. (And boy, do I relate. I once bought a family member a $100.00 phone card after they moved out of state and they did not use it to call me. Not once).
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse I fully understand and it's disturbing that they don't see it themselves, or, if they do, they choose the route of alienation over mutual love & understanding for what we have all been through. With the invention of the internet and ability to now communicate by email, text or face to face via audio or video call, for FREE, they simply came up with a different excuse for why they don't use the internet for that purpose. It's somewhat validating to find out after all these years, of neglect & abuse, that it was not I who had the problem, but actually them. They literally just re-scapegoated me all over again and that was enough to finally accept that going No Contact was a very good decision all around. I'd try to help them but it is pointless and I would be only ridiculed for daring to insinutate that the issue is also theirs to deal with. I thank you, once again, for all you have done by sharing all this content. Cheers
@@DosBearI also was re scapegoated all over again- that’s a very good description- with awareness there are choices- painful, sad and more, but there’s a level of freedom too. Rebecca’s video on disenfranchised grief is very helpful- also for me I have close friends who are not young and have studied and worked in areas that provide knowledge. I’ve been so upset by telling and telling this and that and feeling that they just didn’t see it- despite all the knowledge. Now I know, I need protect myself, accept that this was invalidating and will be again, if I chose to go and talk more. At one point I was so glad to be able to direct a friend to Dr Rebecca Mandeville’s UA-cam channel, and 1 video, starting with her credentials- the response when I checked, was a question about going no contact with siblings, as in Are you going…. I asked had she read any of the comments… No. I then said can you imagine if everything changed with your sibling X and over time, with her husband, she wanted nothing to do with you but every one else was ok and everything seemed fine? Of course she said No - i was discarded by a sibling I was very close to, she knew this already. My family are all so well mannered outside the church at family funerals- so this was taken at face value …etc. It’s all an interesting study on human nature and the role of scapegoating. This here is a very healthy and safe space.
Do families dominated by a powerful narcissist also sometimes engage in the Family Projective Identification Process? I recognize aspects of both in my family...I'm clearly the scapegoat and my brother is clearly the golden child (I've always known this, even before I knew these were clinical terms). I read the articles in your links, though, and I'm not sure which type of family we were/are. My father, a pretty obvious narcissist (though I don't know about full NPD, and he had some childhood trauma of his own but my mom didn't at all), died about a year and a half ago. I realize more and more, now that he's gone, how much of the traumatic invalidation was/is also the rest of my family as well. I imagine that knowing the mechanics of how it all came about/which type of dysfunction it is would help me figure out the best way to handle it going forward because, no matter what coping skills I use, I still get triggered around them way more often than I'd like and I would like to be spending less of my emotional energy on that (and "forgiveness" isn't a simple answer to everything because I already HAVE forgiven them but that doesn't make the ongoing gaslighting and invalidation feel any better). ***Hi all of you other Scapegoats out there! I'm sending you my love and support***
Yes, I call this "the double whammy". If the family is also an alcoholic/ addict family system this is "the triple whammy." (Dysfunctional, Narcissistic, Alcohlic). Some families are all three so the dynamics are extraordinarily destructive and the scapegoating can be incredibly intense. I address this in some lf my blog articles, BTW, at scapegoatrecovery.com and a bit in my book, Rejected Shamed and Blamed.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse I got your book today. It's amazing how much of what you describe fits my experience and I do think my family is both Dysfunctional and Narcissistic. My mom was clearly the enabling spouse, and I truly intend and think I've forgiven her, now that my father is dead and there's no longer anything to enable...and yet, some of the things she says are so astonishingly lacking in self-awareness and so historically revisionist, it triggers me all over again and I don't know how to not feel that way. I just focus on not outwardly reacting because that never goes well, and for the most part I can manage that. Either way, it's exhausting and I tend to get depressed and/or dissociate when I spend time with my family.
Thank you so much for making these videos Ms. Mandeville, I can always feel a sense of safety watching your videos, validation and can lower my guard at least for a moment. One thing that I do have trouble with is deciding after going no contact with my extended family wether I should also stop speaking with tte few relatives that k do get along with or delete them from social media as well or not. It does bother me that the narcs in my family do have power over my cousins and that they in turn can keep them in the know of what I do or don’t do. I’m this 👌🏼close to doing that however I realize it would leave me almost alone except for a few online friends 😞
It is possible for many FSA adult survivors to remain in touch with non-harmful family members (extended, etc, and even nuclear, in some cases). However, to protect their privacy, they don't share anything with they wouldn't want scapegoating family to know.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse thank you for replying Ms.Mandeville ,I had thought of that but was unsure wether I would be overreacting or just acting accordingly. I do have most of my extended fam on Facebook but I’m hardly on there however I am always on and posting on Instagram and that space I can keep more private. Thank you so much!
This is a tough one for me, and no doubt nearly all of us, because of course relatives (cousines, nieces, nephews especially for me) will be hearing a lot of lies such that when I'm with them they will not truly be with me, largely the case before I left but probably worse now that I am "the crazy one who deserted them." So, I'm trying to go with my gut and currently no social media and only one cousin and her children who also has experienced some level of scapegoating abuse and is a family therapist. It's hard. I could use more information on this and also on what my children should think about when/if they have contact with extended family. Maybe we should create some sort of scapegoat convention to meet each other? This can be such an isolating experience.
@@MF-my3db Hi 👋🏼 just saw your message, you know what that sounds wonderful! A convention 🤔 wow I hadn’t thought of that. It is very isolating at times even when you just Grey rock certain relatives you may have to be around with such as when you both work at the same company. Is there such a group one can attend? I have heard of Adult children of narcissistic parents (ACON) and other Alcoholics Anonymous variant groups but I have personally kept away since I’m very much secular and I’ve heard those groups involve the use of the concept of a deity to bond and overcome certain obstacles.
@@MF-my3db I am speaking with some psychologist colleagues about having a retreat for FSA adult survivors - A big undertaking and it won't be this year, but it is something I've always wanted to do - I think we'd all have a blast - and no explaining would be needed, imagine that!
My family honestly was a mix of both. A father who was a narcissist w/ some sociopathic slants for sure. There was family trauma in his history but he drove this. My mother was a flying monkey covert narcissist also who thought he was a saint. She protected me only once when she thought he was going to kill me. Child protective service almost called by my aunt who my older sister called in fear that he would kill me. I wasn’t more than 6. My aunt told me this story many years later. Not my memory but hers. Can’t make this stuff up. : ) Thankfully my dad and I had a come to Jesus moment years later and we salvaged a respectful relationship for his last ten years but it took me standing up to him. I thought he’d kill me but he actually stood back. I saw him as a traumatized little child and forgave him. He knew what he did and I truly believe he was sorry. My older sister many years later become my father in his younger years and unfortunately my mother & my younger sister golden child let her treachery destroy our family. She was full of rage and hate and took it out on anyone in her path. Ex husbands then me. Always needed an enemy. I don’t talk with either of them anymore my mom or younger sister. My older sister just died. Literally the family dysfunction that killed her but that’s another topic. She was 53. We’re 15 months apart. I likely will stay away even for my own mother’s funeral. My younger sister and mom are pathetic and cowardly to me. They live in their matrix. I don’t want any part of that reality. It took away many years of my life and almost killed me.
You have a great amount of insight, Jayme. Thank you for sharing your story here - There's a reason I mention the movie 'The Matrix' in my book, Rejected, Shamed, and Blamed. Obviously, you get it.
Thank you Rebecca, this is such good analysis structure, in understanding and recovering from family trauma, and it's associated repercussions. Your weekly UA-cams are a must watch for me, very helpful.
A few years ago narcissism Was rarely recognized as such a horrible problem. Especially if you had narc parents and the horrible damage they could do to you. The therapist I went to was not helpful In fact she ended up hurting me more because she didn't believe me.
Sadly, this can and does happen. I'm sorry you experienced this. There is more awareness now in the Mental Health field today, but more through a grassroots / social media movement that licensed clinicians are now latching onto. You'd be amazed by how many Continuing Education flyers for licensed professionals I get for seminars on Narcissism these days - something that did NOT happen even a few years ago.
I have a question. I come from at least two generations of narcissistic power holders and since narcissism ,along with other personality disorders is usually developed from early childhood trauma,then it would denote that there’s inter generational trauma,just like dysfunctional families? The thing is I can’t trace back the traumatic events. Isolated ones later on in life in adulthood,but not childhood,which is where narcissistic behavior is developed right? Maybe because narcissists hide anything that make them look weak and inferior?!
Great questions. A family system can be both traumatized/dysfunctional and narcissistic. This video of mine I am linking you to may help you suss out what type of family system you grew up in, see what you think: ua-cam.com/video/AD-rwWEbcWE/v-deo.html
Thank you for sharing and explaining your insights. Once in a while I simply need to listen to your words in order to stay compassionate to my present state of mind. 💐
I never can find a video on "single parent narcissistic families." Could you please do a video addressing poverty and single parent malignant narcissism? This, along with how the children fare once they are adults (sibling estrangement)?
Intriguing concept. I'll consider it, thanks for the suggestion. As with scapegoating, I imagine this has not been adequately researched. I'll see if I can weave this into one of my surveys that I'll be releasing later this year.
had severe allergies, asthma and eczema as child. once leaving home at 18 and staying away, most symptoms and severity disappeared. however, everytime i must be in contact with any of them, i immediately flareup. am 70 now and after a recent contact am covered , mb 75 of body, with eczema. there is no doubt. "the body keeps the score"
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse Back at you. Appreciate your videos. Your insights are so helpful. Thank you for your generosity in posting these segments.
Rebecca- your comment about the narcissistic person in the therapy room- reluctantly- charming the therapist ( another form of this is getting people to feel sorry for them, without saying a word) or getting enraged and storming out- as they do not like to have their power challenged- the storming out you described as having happened “more than once” in your therapy room- sounds like skilful therapy work to me.
Yip… My 91 year old mother has been making excuses for her role in the dysfunctional and Narcissistic family behaviour… I grew up in. I’m the scape goat.. ! 😢😢 It’s come to ahead very Recently… MY mother has recently admitted ONE part she played… in my extreme trauma … ! But she did the unthinkable 😢… whilst admitting she’d harmed me.. She phoned my adult Daughter and my Brother.. and Told them… I was bullying her…. (Not true) All I did was ask her to admit.. her wrong doing.. It upset her soo much., She lied told Them I bullied her.. But is NOT willing to admit… how she’s been using her rights as a Grandmother , and condoning and enabling my adult Daughter’s abusive behaviour…towards me.. ! By not telling her OFF ever. If she’s disrespectful to me. When the 3 of us are together.! I’ve NOW been blocked by my daughter.. for good., She’s (my mother)almost enjoyed it., (I’ve watched her) I had NOo part in my daughter’s Wedding.. My daughter pushed me out and Put my mother in my Place… As she tells me she can’t speak to my daughter.. Because she’s afraid my daughter won’t like her ever again😮 I’m an empath very agreeable… ! BUT I’m strong .. I have back bone and depth.. and integrity…. I’m a R. N. Have seen life… She’s refused to tell her ( my daughter ) OFF… ever… she’s very argumentative and rude… Sadly my husband refused to Discipline her.. too.. He didn’t want to hurt her.. I did lovingly and Kindly.. I’m the BAD one my daughter tells me.. She’s married out of house… I grew up in chaos, we had nOO boundaries… ! I’m in the middle… My older sister bullied me 24/7.. my mother refused to stop it.. This is what she admitted to me… from age 7 to 18.. I refused to have my sister as a bridesmaid 33 yrs ago.. my mother cried.. that I had too. I did give in🥲 My sister.. and myself are cordial.. but we have never had a deep conversation.. My mother allowed my sisters behaviour to dominate our family.. ! Soo sad there was Noo family counselling in the 70’s ! My mother of 91.,reads 2 books per week. And is still fully mobile and agile.. I do realise it was traumatic at this age to admit such a thing.. Outsiders would say Why did I do this.. ? She’s infiltrated my daughter.. and Taken her away from..me. My husband is NOT interested in trying to help. By disciplining or talking or having therapy with myself or my daughter… ! Thank you for your insight and Having this platform! God Bless you! 🙏🏻🌸 Jenny
Thank you for sharing a part of your scapegoat story. I do at times see a scapegoating parent deliberately turn the scapegoat target's children against them. I can't find much out there written on this so I plan to discuss it in a future video. It can be quite shocking, angering, and devastating to the FSA adult survivor when they realize what has happened - that their own child is now scapegoating them, too.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse Thank you soo kindly for you reply.. I asked my mother this afternoon to please contact my brother and my daughter, to apologise to them for over- reacting.. And causing them to believe I bullied my mother… So therefore they’ve both gone Noo contact with me… 🥲 Life is precious and short., I need to have contact with my child.. I’m still in shock that one’s Mother, can cause soo much pain and hurt. Soo late in her life and mine.. ! Take Care.. 🙏🏻🌸🎉and I will keep listening to your videos 🌟🌸
Jenny- they never change, it’s only tactics that change and the more toxic ones make sure they leave a post the grave route for others to follow. All atrocities and major crimes against humanity, players like these thrived within and rose high in the esteemed ranks. The only difference was they were mostly male.
Understandable you would feel that way. Did you already watch my video on scapegoating and sibling estrangementand/or read my book on this form of family abuse (Rejected, Shamed, and Blamed)?
@@fishfanaI’d say your mom has some sort of a role to play in this also. I have kids, as a mom I know stuff I never knew before and also things have not been easy and I’ve needed to dig deep.
I’ve joined a group very reasonable but it’s all about narcissists, not family scapegoating. Don’t think it’s helping me. You book really helped me, so easy to read and understand.
Hi Rebecca. I have a question regarding the difference between those familysystems. Would you say it's more common in the narcissistic system that the scapegoat role rotate among siblings? I can recognize my family a bit in both systems. A thing I have noticed is that my mum seem to take turns in idealizing and scapecoating me and my sister. When I'm in the scapegoat role I tend to be more vulnerable though because the rest of my family often join her. It get a lot worse if I show any emotion in response to the scapegoating and if I try to set bounderies. So I feel I grew up with a lot of fawning behaviors and I have a hard time being assertive.
Hi Emma, I am actually releasing a follow up video to this one this Saturday where I will go into detail regarding scapegoating in families where there is both intergenerational trauma / the Family Projective Identification Process going on, as well as narcissistic dynamics - all of this contributing to the scapegoating abuse. I do discuss roles in this video, and I think I even mention in this video the roles can indeed change. ALL roles that lock family members into place are maintained through unconscious systemic anxiety and projection, including the 'golden child' role, which I also cover in this video. Hopefully you have already subscribed - tap the notification bell to ensure you are notified of my latest video release - I typically release videos Saturday mornings PST.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse Dear Rebecca, It's great to hear from you here. Please let me know how I can send you a private message. Yours sincerely, Elizabeth
Watching your videos makes me feel like I would never consider forgiving the family member who undermined me. I realize from your video, that it is likely that this person also suffered abuse. At this moment, it is too raw to consider forgiveness.
As a trauma-informed therapist, I invite clients (and viewers/subscribers) to consider the concept of 'radical acceptance' versus 'forgiveness' - I'll be doing a video on this soon and wrote an article on this here: www.scapegoatrecovery.com/2023/11/05/radical-acceptance-and-scapegoat-recovery-the-power-of-accepting-what-is/
I appreciate you differentiating differnent kinds of family system problems. I am curious if it is possible for one family system to reflects both intergenerational trauma with a high degree projection and imposed roles from one parent along with narcissistic abuse in the other parent? If so, how would the healing path be different than in a less complex system?
Yes, this absolutely can happen. I plan to do a dedicated video answering your question as this has come up a lot recently - and the question is an important one! And yes, the complexity does increase, but in the end, we must "follow the wisdom of our nervous system" in regard to our own FSA healing and recovery process.
Yes - and it's about time. Linking you to a resource list I put together for FSA adult survivors in case you are wanting more support: www.scapegoatrecovery.com/updated-fsa-recovery-resources-2023/
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabusethis understanding had changed my life overnight. I know that sounds dramatic but I feel like I’ve been released from prison
This was the big "A-HA" moment for me as well when I learned about it while taking Family Systems in grad school. Life changing only begins to describe it. I'm thinking of doing another video on it this coming week and give some examples from my practice, etc. Very hard concept to explain well and for others to 'get' - You need a good foundation in Psychoanalytic theory and practice which, like Family Systems, seems to not be the sort of 'fast food' fare many are being spoon-fed today on these platforms (or even in grad schools for therapist training). The scapegoat is energetically 'tarred and feathered' via this pathological systemic projective identification process and there are typically similar individual projective identification processes going on as well, leaving the FSA child / adult survivor literally smothered in projective energies.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse I’ve been to countless therapists, coaches, doctors, psychics, read books, listened to podcasts- and my mantra the whole time has been, “someone say something that makes sense”. I immediately understood this concept but I think it’s because I’ve been looking. I got your book today. Looking forward to our session, whenever that time comes. I’m very grateful to be on the list.
I also intuitively 'got' it, on a visceral level. I'll check emails next week to make sure we know your ID for potential cancellation/scheduling purposes. I do believe I will be able to assist you in your journey...Do read my book first - you will get more out of the single-session consultation that way.
Thanks for another great video. Is it possible that at some point, in a dysfonctional family, a member of the family develops narcissism and their children experience the consequences of types of family systems? Thanks.
Great question. NPD typically develops in the teens or early adulthood. However, individual and/or family stressors can result in more extreme behaviors in someone who has borderline personality disorder (BPD), histrionic personality disorder (HPD), etc, which can present as NPD.
Although I believe in the generational trauma, sometimes is a form of keeping the narcissist and enablers safe and no accountability Yes, I get how someone has to break the cord, but that doesn't relief anything 😢.
Hi Mary, thank you for your thoughtful comment. As a Family Systems specialist, I actually distinguish between narcissistic family scapegoating abuse (FSA) and dysfunctional FSA. I have two separate playlists on the home page of my channel here, and a video there that explains the difference - Differences that were evident during the course of my FSA research these past 15 years. And I agree with you (and I say this in my book, Rejected, Shamed, and Blamed as well): Narcissistic FSA may or may not be driven by generational trauma and/or pathological projective identification processes and may be driven by individual pathology. One of the reasons endings contact with such family members (or the entire system) is recommended. Linking you to a list of recovery resources I put together in case you see something of interest: www.scapegoatrecovery.com/updated-fsa-recovery-resources-2023/
Can you have a blend of both types of family scapegoating in a family (ie, be both narcissistic and dysfunctional)? My mother is clearly a malignant narcissist and I think my sister is a step up from that (both my mum and my sister know what they are doing) but other family members seem to really believe the projection. However, my mum is also the daughter of an incest victim. I think my dad's side of the family is more dysfunctional (alcoholic and intergenerational/colonial trauma) but his mum may also have been narcissistic.
Great question - and important. Yes, absolutely. For example, one might have a highly traumatized, dysfunctional family system - There may be generations of (unrecognized, unaddressed trauma). Due to trauma, there is typically both individual intrapsychic and systemic 'splitting'. Via this trauma and 'splitting', there are likely to be personality disordered people present in the family (i.e., one or both parents). In such families, there may be family members with strong narcissistic tendencies and/or they may have (undiagnosed) NPD. These families may also have addiction / alcohol use effecting behaviors as well. Here's a 2-part video I did on 'splitting' which addresses this phenomenon (linking you to part 1; part 2 can be accessed at the end of the video) - and I also discuss this in my introductory book on FSA, 'Rejected, Shamed, and Blamed': ua-cam.com/video/4CFqA0yWPhs/v-deo.html
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse I absolutely will! Struggling so much right now with all of this… might be time to try to find a therapist that might understand but so far even on this platform you’re the only one who truly seems to. Appreciate what you do so much - just started your book and it’s so incredibly insightful !!! I have to pace myself or I break down a bit. You’re remarkable. Clearly you know this issue on a personal heart level and in a deep way. Hate that for you but am so grateful you exist and get it. Gives me hope someday I’ll find a reason for my own walk that helps others too. Hope isn’t a strength of mine so feeling any is a step up and I’m grateful to you for it. CC
Dear Rebecca C. Mandeville, Confidentially, my trauma informed therapist in my session a couple of days ago told me that no one can say they have been raised as a scapegoat in a malignant narcissistic family unless you are a qualified diagnosing psychologist who is diagnosing the father or mother in a therapy setting once the people who use FSA are willing to go to therapy which they likely would not be willing to attend. Please tell us here what your opinion of this is as I felt it was a betrayal of my intelligence and I simply wept and said I will not work with you anymore. Best wishes for your health from a confidencial person
Hi Elizabeth, I did answer this comment from you the other day, perhaps it was on another post? Maybe check your email notifications from UA-cam. If you aren't getting notification, go back to the subscribe button on the home page of my channel, click it, and then click on one of the little bells indicating your notification preference.
Absolutely. I'm going to do a video on this soon. In fact this is rather common in dysfunctional families - one or more family members may have high narcissism related to early childhood trauma, or having been the 'golden child' when young, etc.
Absolutely. There can be overlaps. For example, a family may be impacted by unrecognized intergenerational trauma, and there may also be narcissistic dynamics, or full blown narcissism, that also influences the system, resulting in scapegoating abuse. I discuss the differences in this video, btw: ua-cam.com/video/AD-rwWEbcWE/v-deo.html
@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse Interesting, thank you for replying! I could heavily relate to both family dynamics. I hope and pray that you are recovering more and more every day, Rebecca. 🙏💜🌹
Whether anyone calls someone an 'Empath' or not, there is scientific evidence that not only do Empaths exist, but Super Empaths exist as well. I cover some of this in my book on FSA in my chapter on the Empath (Rejected, Shamed, and Blamed): www.vice.com/en/article/xwj84k/super-empaths-are-real-says-science-mirror-touch-synaesthesia
You don’t have to tell anyone else what your truth is until you’re ready to. I never thought I was an empath, but I am. It’s a survival technique. I had to read the room to know how to survive it. That made me very aware and skilled at understanding how other people feel even when they’re not conscious of it. Don’t think about label. Think about what empaths can do and see if that fits. ❤❤❤
Yes, definitely. I call this "the double whammy" and mention this in a different video, as well as my book (Rejected, Shamed, and Blamed). Add in alcoholism / addiction and you have "the triple whammy" (!)
1) Join my new FSA Education online community for adult survivors on SUBSTACK at familyscapegoathealing.substack.com/. Subscribe for free to receive my FSA-related articles or become a paid subscriber to access Community features where you can engage with other FSA adult survivors via Group Chats and Discussion Threads.
2) Purchase my introductory book on Family Scapegoating Abuse (Rejected, Shamed, and Blamed) via this Universal Buy Link, which includes links to Amazon: books2read.com/intro2fsa.
At 63, I'm just now learning about what I went through as i grew up. I realized that I am an empath, I can feel if I'm liked or not liked by someone rather quickly, and I quickly decide if I like someone or not.
I have a chapter on being the Family Empath in my introductory book on FSA - also, a video here, search on the home page of my channel on 'Empath' and it will come up. Here's a survivor Resource list I put together in case you need more support: www.scapegoatrecovery.com/updated-fsa-recovery-resources-2023/
I know very much what you mean about this, because I am 61 years old and am just now getting a handle on what happened to me in my family of origin. I am now working on myself with help of the wise and gentle counselors found on the UA-cam. I am particularly grateful to Rebecca Mandeville for her caring counsel and listing of resources valuable to help me forward on a healing path.
Many blessings and peace moving ahead.
Sometimes I think I'm allergic to people.
There is a quote by the poet Charles Bukowski that I'm sure many FSA adult survivors can relate to: "Sure I like people. I just feel better when they're not around..."
Me too
I totally agree.
I’m the same way.
I’ve been traumatized by family members and then gravitated towards familiarity,thus recreating more trauma bonding.
I now feel happier when I’m just with my cats,but it ebbs and flows with my need for attachment.
@@truthlove607I’m allergic to cats and dogs- and animal dander and pollens- It’s wonderful to have pets and also go take care of plants and garden etc., you are never alone when you have a pet.
@@melliecrann-gaoth4789
Yes,taking care of any living thing is an act of love and creates a strong bond/connection with creation itself,which surpasses human dynamics.
They’ve trapped me and I almost can’t take it anymore. It’s a very dark side of this life to have to live as the scapegoat. These malignants are so ruthless.
So very sorry to here this. Glad you're here. Linking you to my resource list for FSA survivors for more education and support: familyscapegoathealing.substack.com/p/resources
Both my parents are narcissists. At a very young age i was the first child of 4 that became aware and hense the truth teller. My parents divorced. I became my Mothers scapegoat and my Father's golden child. My 3 brothers were forbidden to have a relationship with me by my Mother. After her passing my Father then turned me into his scapegoat. My 2 sons have been drawn into this disturbing cycle despite my attempts to keep them from the dysfunction. At 58 i have withdrawn myself from all of them hoping to find some kind of peace on this earth. Such a sad story....Thank you for your video's. They help me feel less alone and validated.
You have very good insight into these complex dynamics. I do have a narcissist family system-focused playlist on the home page here, and you may want to pick up my book as well, if you haven't yet (Rejected, Shamed, and Blamed).
😢 I’m so desperate for the right therapist to help me through this difficult painful situation 🙏🏻🕊️🦋
Linking you to my FSA survivor resource list for additional support ideas: familyscapegoathealing.substack.com/p/resources
My sister is totally warped in the delusional reality. Sad.
Thank you for supporting the Scapegoated child community ❤
Always! Feel free to include my channel in your 'featured channels', if you like.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse Thank you! And the same to you! Hopefully, the more we understand and talk about this, the better we can heal, and, try to break the cycles that lead to this.
The scapegoated senior.. from a dysfunctional narcissistic system.
I am six years into my healing journey. Someday I might figure out my family system, brother narcissist who controlled everything that fed his obsessive compulsive money hoarding. Watched him neglect and abuse our elderly blind mother causing her intense emotional pain and miserable death. I did everything in my power to try and help her, she begged me, but my brother relentlessly scapegoated me, projecting his evil intentions onto me. I'm lucky to have lived through this, but my trauma burden is high, dx of PTSD. I experience disassociation, but it a necessary protective factor, I am thankful my brain shuts down. 6 years of intense counseling and I feel like I've only scratched the surface. No contact 6 years too, best choice I've ever made. Hard to feel connected to reality when my entire first 50 years were in a faux family system. Dog and pony show.
Dr. Manderville, this topic was very, very profound. I'll have to watch it several times to really absorb it. A few years ago, my therapist told me, "Yasmine, based on the confrontation letter you wrote, your family is very enmeshed. How your fathers sees you is how everyone else sees you." She never mentioned the word scapegoat, but as I continued to become more trauma informed and started researching topics on family systems, I began to connect the dots...my poor father is indeed a narcissist and so are several of my siblings.
Hi Yasmine, you have worked very hard to understand the dynamics driving the scapegoating abuse directed at you. Connecting the dots and getting those "A-ha!" moments can be a very powerful experience during the FSA recovery and healing process.
So profoundly disappointing & life altering it is I’m sorry you, myself and others have suffered from these nasty family dynamics. The toll it takes on a growing child developing into an adult that many times attracts the same blueprint we grew up with until connecting the dots. We stop making excuses for the way our bosses, family, “friends” & spouses treat us we slowly heal enough to write a new script taking full responsibility for protecting ourselves and removing ourselves from any and all dark dynamics.
I just wanted to say that’s classic narc parental control. “You must believe as I do about who’s good who’s bad or face the bullying they join in on with your propped up house of cards father to dismiss and/or gang up on you. It’s pathetic & disgusting. You know it’s not an unreasonable “fantasy” to think that your family wants the best for you especially as an infant, child or young/old adult. You cannot live in their fantasy because that’s what it is. Make believe BS.
Hang in there. ❤
I’m with you. I’m so sorry you too are part of this type of family.
@@Lilrumbles hi!! Thanks so much for all of the things you've said. Those words from my therapist were spoken to me 9 years ago at the beginning of my healing journey because my family made me feel crazy. It pushed me to therapy. I'm passed "hanging in there". I've done my work and I'm thriving at this point in my life.
I'm in grad school, I became an author, I'm a active member in my community, in my church, I have a cooking show, and I'm OVER my family. I love them but I don't like them. They don't get me. We don't have the same heart or the same perspective about life or about the world. They are NOT my people. In fact, after understanding family systems and generational dysfunction, I feel for them. If I had to go back, as painful as it was, I would be the scapegoat all over again because it has made me resilient. Scapegoats have the heart of Christ.
I've dropped that false narrative and I've embraced my true nature; loving, kind, friendly, giving, intelligent, funny, social, cultured, and so much. I'm a recovering scapegoat and the experience forced me live my life outload, unafraid, and unashamed.
Now that's what I call moving 'Beyond Family Scapegoating Abuse'"!! I celebrate your healing and recovery, Yasmine. Hard earned, and hard won.
The abuse reverberates through generations. I can see it in my family and with my in laws.
This often becomes abundantly clear when one does a family genogram; the patterns are so evident, it can help one to see how these behaviors of scapegoating abuse and other dysfunctional behaviors are passed down from generation-to-generation in a dysfunctional family system (some narcissistic family systems as well).
It makes sense now that my mother and maternal grandmother were so scared of me becoming a slut, that they basically made me seem like a slut to a man I cared for a great deal. I believe my grandmother may have been a prostitute, and my mother was shamed into despising all thing sexual because of it, which frankly really destroyed my ability to understand and enjoy it. It just simply 'didn't exist'.
There are many unknown, insidious forces that drive what I named 'family scapegoating abuse' (FSA) - and this is confirmed in my years of research on this subject.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuseit almost feel evil and I used to never think like that
Thanks Rebecca you have explained the different types of family systems in plain English for lay people to understand. I really appreciate this because our therapists and the educational system here does not explain any of this information. I feel we are very behind in our treatments for adult survivors so your psychological education is very well received. I had a covert mother & a sociopathic father that played all their children off each other. I have no contact with any of my family because I need to keep mysef safe from the illusion of a happy family. My struggle is with the services that are supposed to help people like me because they are very out dated and closed off to new research; maybe they are full of narcissistic professionals? They seem to be stuck on the concept that parents who are traumatised will traumatise their children which is not always the case. I am an adult survivor of sexual abuse and I have not abused my children & I have my own research on other adult survivors. Our trauma gets extended because not only did our family abuse us but our services also jump on the train wagon by falling into the shared psychosis of our family systems. I feel that I should speak up about this issue in Ireland but at the moment I don't even know we're to start? Hopefully by sharing your videos the people who are supposed to help us will re-train and up skill their services.
Nicola, your observations are both accurate and astute. I am making a note to do a video on the following (quoting from your comment): "They seem to be stuck on the concept that parents who are traumatised will traumatise their children which is not always the case" - Well said, and thank you for being here and sharing your experience, insight, and wisdom regarding FSA.
Nicola Byrne-I had that combination too- just the other way round and a very big family
Thank you so much for speaking out on this. I have spent 49 years wondering what was wrong with me. Now I know it wasn’t me. All the signs were there but I didn’t want to believe it, I wanted to find out why? Now I know they enjoyed it.
@@tracysiegner1358 I think that is human nature asking why and people looking for solutions- I did that for decades- and in relationships beyond family- I’ve experienced unpleasantness, to put it mildly- and now I can say to that also, they did it because they liked it.
I would love to see a video done on narcissistic families where the narcissist is a sibling rather than a parent.
I do plan to make such a video - and soon!
Yes! I have been fruitlessly searching for information on this. I know a situation where the child/sibling is a narcissist, but claims every one around them is a narcissist/dysfunctional or abuser of some sort, & that they are the (perpetual) scape goat.. it took me a long time to understand what was actually happening.. haplessly naive, i was.
I love this channel, and in re: to this particular question, another UA-cam therapist, Dr. Ramani has been specializing in narcissistic abuse and indeed has done a video (actually a few videos) on a narcissistic sibling. I know because I had one. I say “had” because she has now since passed away. I support I still have one, but her narcissism is now waaaaay in the background.
Of 6 girls and 1 boy, my brother was the only one who I could trust back then. Recently, he joined the rest of the family by telling me " mom never would do all of those mean things to you. She never treated me like that".
This can be so very painful - having the one "ally" in the family turn on you. For many, it can understandably feel worse than the expected / anticipated scapegoating of the other family members.
Thank You Dr. Mandeville for listening to my problem. I feel validated. I was told by mom, sis & rest of family I was crazy for over 50 yrs. I am 65 now. Everytime I tried to go back around them hoping for good things to happen, they only got worse. Thank You again ❤
My mom is clever. She plays the victim and they believe her. I am validated now. Thank You for caring about us all ❤
You might relate to my video on the Narcissistic Martyr Parent Ploy - this can happen with covert narcissist parents, btw.
I watched your video about the Martyr Parent Ploy. I enjoyed it. I left a comment the other day about my mom not having an infant photo of me in any of the photo albums. You are the Amazing Voice for any Scapegoated kid. I rushed to get married to escape the abuse only to marry an abuser. When he died, my family returned, bringing the chaos with them all over again. I am strengthened from every video you send us. I am reading the article you sent me right now. I cannot say Thank You enough ❤ I am just learning there is a name for what happened as a kid up til last yr.
In my case, it was intentional. I was chosen as the most likely candidate to be devalued, demoralized and singled out because I was aware and sensitive, logical and fair-minded. I was too aware so I had to be managed downward. I became the dumping ground for their unresolved inner blame and shame. I felt like an animal at times and as a young teen, I sometimes reacted to their insults and assaults like an animal. My parents were covert communal narcissists. For me, entertaining the notion that it wasn't intentional doesn't wash. I won't absolve their behavior that way. It was too specific to me and too chronic. It's dogged me my whole life. It was layered in with good behavior from them too, optics as you say.
They hid what they were doing from others. They hid some of it from my siblings but let them hear just enough to convince them too that I was unacceptable, tainted. They lied about me to me and to other people. I believed I was "rotten" a "creep" "gutless" "garbage", etc. because they wanted me to believe those things. They needed a fall guy to expel their insecurities out of their own systems and onto a child who had no idea what they were up to. They didn't plot together but enabled each other. I believed what they said about me. It was hard to live with those bizarre judgments hammering me down. With comparison to the monster they made me out to be, they could burnish their own reputations as saintly, salts of the earth. It continues to this day. But I got out. Miles to go but I got out.
Thanks for speaking about this subject. My life was saved by people in this community sharing their experiences so thank you to the community as well.
So glad you are here, Lorna. As I mentioned in this video, and in past videos, my articles, and my book, Rejected, Shamed, and Blamed, those who are scapegoated within a narcissistic family system will typically experience severe psycho-emotional abuse that is indeed conscious and intentional, when the scapegoating is driven by narcissistic parents (whether overt or covert). Siblings are often inoculated / indoctrinated into the false 'scapegoat narrative', and will go along with this narrative to remain aligned with the parent and avoid the same treatment the 'scapegoat' in the family receives. Clinically, there is often no way to recover and heal from this unless contact with abusive family members has ended. Thank you for sharing some of your story.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse Thanks for your reply because it reaffirms my decision to never talk to my three siblings again at 49-yrs-old even though I've lived 2300 miles away for decades. It took until my mid-40s for them to come out of their secretive HATER CLOSET (looking back, a few red flags and orange flags until the worst happened). Then I found out who they REALLY were and I'm never talking to them again
Like yourself, they have quite a few things to be embarrassed about in their past but it's like they take it out on us scapegoats trying to exaggerate flaws we have or make mountains out of molehills with things just to feel superior
@@NoMoreMrNiceGuy2003 It's a decision of last resort but you make it in order to save yourself. When others refuse to stop their abusive ways, you sometimes have to make it stop. It's not ideal but you can make it work. It's eventually pretty wonderful making it work.
My therapist never addressed how my family was dysfunctional and how that impacted me. I am hard pressed to say what we talked about. Yes, I talked about my family, mostly my mom, but she never explained my issues the way Rebecca does. I felt nothing was happening. I talked and never heard that my family may have been unhealthy.
Hi Nancy, sadly, this is not uncommon. In-depth Family Systems training is not a requirement with all licensing types here in the U.S. It tends to be LMFTs and LCSWs that have this in-depth training. For example, in my licensing program to be a LMFT, we had to do our own (Bowenian-style) family genogram and look for behavioral and emotional patterns going back four generations. Whereas I have had Psychologist friends of mine tell me they only had to take one brief course in Family Systems and they know very little about how to work in a family systems-informed manner.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse Thank you. I did a Google search looking for a family systems therapist. Articles came up on the subject but no list of therapists. How do I find a qualified person? I put my name on your waiting list about 6 months ago, but I am not great at technology so maybe I didn't do it correctly.
Nancy, I don't see anyone on my waiting list with your last name. I'm doing Single-Session Consultations now you might want to check out as my waiting list has become prohibitively long as I inch toward semi-retirement. More information here (people have been loving this service, btw.) www.scapegoatrecovery.com/scapegoat-recovery-consultations/ If you prefer to stay on my waiting list just use the Contact link on this same page and let me know and I will bump you up since you tried to get on it 6 months ago.
ditto... it is unfortunate in that it makes people all the more wary of psychotherapy generally.
I'm inspired to share a Doc Holiday quote, paraphrased, "In order for me to feel offended (or hurt or devalued), I must first value your opinion.". I reached the point where I don't care what they or anyone else thinks about me. I'm a good person and I'm not perfect, but I like me. Rebecca, thank you for helping me grow! 🤗
Isn't that a wonderful place to be? And so LIBERATING...!
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse yes, very much so!!! 💞
It's one thing to not be offended when they're having opinions about you that are not true. But it's a whole other monster when they're trying to smear you with slander. It's pure evil
@@NoMoreMrNiceGuy2003yes that is different and very difficult. If it was a non- family member, I wonder would we consider the laws about slander and libel?
The siblings of the scapegoat in narcissistic families are often narcissists, so of course they go along with the narrative. It’s madness and there’s no allies for the scapegoat in these families. The scapegoat is usually the one who held onto their true self, their soul survived the abuse, they are the strongest child. The narcissistic siblings had their spirit broken, and then they assigned a false self to compensate.
Well said. Thank you. I discuss this in my book, in fact - and I agree: "The scapegoat is usually the one who held onto their true self, their soul survived the abuse, they are the strongest child."
My family pretty much had it all, parents were both alcoholic covert narcissists, my mom being the stronger one, and a sister who grew up to be an overt narcissist. I think they all genuinely believed the family delusion and were aware enough to manipulate it to be more and more advantageous to them.
My mom ended up writing a whole fictionalized memoir about her side of the family, to try and convince me that the whole thing was because of intergenerational trauma and wasn't her fault and she was helpless in the face of it all. This in spite of the fact she did a lot of deliberate financial and emotional abuse, and frequently displayed sadistic glee in inflicting pain on me. She loved getting away with stealing from me and lying to me.
She hid behind intergenerational trauma in the end. All it really did was create a huge, incoherent snarl of motivations, and the fact she deliberately made it so confused just demonstrated to me how responsible she was. She wasn't interested in the truth but overcomplicating things so that the truth would never be known, and that in itself is damning.
Thank you for saying intentions don't matter. They absolutely don't. It's important to untangle but not in order to participate further.
My parents are both narcissists who were narcissistically abused by their parents as well as dealing with the other generational trauma side of it as well. My father is malignant and my mother is covert/vulnerable. I'm their traumatized, abused, hsp, truth teller daughter. It's been hell. I was also parentified without emotion and mental support while being the scapegoat. I'm 35 now and still can't physically or financially escape, because the stress of it has broken my body physically to disabilities now.....even though I'm listed as my mom's caregiver and help out them without getting my needs met. It's hell. So much suffering and I spend all my energy trying to triage my pain. I don't even get to do things I want or need. I'm existentially exhausted and in constant pain. Each time I reach for help I just keep getting burned and it becomes more exhausting due to just more pain. Thank you for at least seeing us. It sucks anyone has to live like this, the fact there are many should terrify people into more actions of healing. No human should have to suffer so needlessly.
Also, been aware of it since 7. It's been healing finding our the proper terminology to help process it all better.
I agree. Thank you for sharing some of your experiences of FSA. I'm sure many here can relate. I have a video here on scapegoating and chronic illness, in case you missed that. Video link here: ua-cam.com/video/ytSdn8nQCBg/v-deo.html
you are so right about learning about the psychological part of being scapegoated. i've learned a lot which i believe helped me to understand the dynamics and can walk away. still hurts but makes sense.
Thank you, Jan.
Thamks for these videos Rebecca , fianally been able to breakaway from my family , thought when the head narc died it was over , i was shocked to see my other family members tried to carry the scapgoating on , ive now created physical and emotional distance, they try to project onto you your mentally ill to see you as the problem , regardless of the anger rage and control of the head narc , ive realised it never stops unless you stop it . Thanks for taking the time to make these videos 🙏
You're welcome, Chris. I'm releasing a 2-part video the next two Saturdays that I think you'll be interested in, based on your comment. I do discuss projection in it as well. Glad you're here!
Rebecca: I keep listening to your videos and now have your book to read. I am in a place finally (safe) where I can truly focus and heal. Your work brings everything, all of my life experience, together for me. I can now see how the fawn=submit trauma response, with surviving both a malignant and covert narcissist (martyr ploy) for parents buried who I am under their psychological, scapegoating waste. I have the deepest. heartfelt gratitude and respect for both you and the work you do. Listening from my soul, over and over to your calming voice, continues to bring more healing insights. Thank you thank you thank you The world needs you and your expertise to stop this victim blaming paradigm that narcissists use to get away with their family relationship crimes.
Pamela, thank you very much for acknowledging my work in this heartfelt manner. This was my hope when I published my book and recently, started this channel. Please keep me posted regarding your progress!
What do I do with all the HATE I feel about my female-parental-unit & the rest of the family who swallowed her bs for 60 years? She's still alive at 76 years old (only the good die young). I can only watch about 10 minutes of your lectures, then I need to stop & come back in a day or two.
I'm glad you step away from these types of psycho-educational videos when you need to. I can say that nearly all my clients / FSA research participants understandably pass through this period of hating their abusers. I don't promote the idea of 'forgiveness' for various reasons that I'll say more about later, but I do find that when my clients are able to fully grieve and fully feel and own their sense of 'righteous rage' regarding being scapegoated by family, as well as their grief, they are more able to move into 'radical acceptance' in regard to what happened to them in their families, allowing them to slowly begin to enter a place beyond the hate - and heal.
I don't know if this could help anyone but me but when I started to feel this way (still do sometimes but but less often) I'd imagine myself a sort of whirling ninja chopping off the body parts of abusers along with various other disturbingly violent kicks, jumps, and flips. My mind would get into the creativity of this and my feelings dissipate quite a bit. After a while I would say "not really, just figuratively" or some such (I'm not a violent person ☮) and go about my business. Then after getting bored with this schtick I'd begin to imagine them being carried away to outer space as if gravity got as sick of them as I was. Getting smaller and smaller as I passively watched. Now when these images come to mind I'm more likely to congratulate myself for them not being in mind previously, switch to another technique less about anger, or think about something more interesting.
@@MF-my3db Thank you for your reply. I'll think of something similar.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse Thank you for your reply. After trying to watch many of your videos, I've come to the conclusion that I need to sit & talk with a professional. I'll still be watching your videos & reading your articles. Thank you again.
Good to hear. Do find a therapist that is trauma-informed, if you can. There is a international search function here on Dr Janina Fisher's site you might also try - you can search for a therapist trained in TIST therapy (as covered in past videos addressing Structural Dissociation and scapegoating abuse). Many therapists work online as well: janinafisher.com/search/
Sometimes both types of dysfunction can coexist within a family. That's what I think happened within my family of origin. When the narcissist is also an alcoholic, then you have the alcoholic family system, as well.
Yes, indeed. I mention that briefly in the video - I'll expand upon that later. That is why I said in this video that in a narcissistic family system, there may or may not be intergenerational trauma and there may or may not be the family projective identification process going on.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse For me it's been extremely confusing and painful that my family seems to be intermittently conscious and not conscious of their dysfunction and abuse. Conscious plotting that I'd become aware of would make me angry and defensive and feel like a wrong I could right, while cluelessness made me confused and depressed and gave me the sense I was somehow profoundly the problem. Learning about the unconscious component of my FSA was especially important to me. It has been easier to have compassion and walk away from something (two acts that can be oddly related) that is hopeless.
I believe this is also what I've been experiencing other than the alcohol use disorder is being experienced by the enablers - maybe narcissist sisters who seem to be taking our mom's place after her death to the extent that happens. They are certainly living her lies more than ever. (I think maybe they just don't know what else to do in a stressful situation but follow her ways; don't know if this makes them narcissists, narcissistic, or folks handling stress in unhealthy ways.) Anyway, I note your "I think." It sure is a confusing jumble.
Yes, that has been my experience, both personally and as a clinician. It is my experience that this type of psycho-education / awareness does assist in one's healing from FSA - even as steps are taken to protect one's self (including one's nervous system) from further abuse.
@@MF-my3db Also, regarding what you shared here, I discuss this somewhat in the Sibling Estrangement video I did a few months back. We know in family systems that after the death of a parent or family power-holder, the family unconsciously seeks to re-establish the family homeostasis - even if it was dysfunctional and harmful to its members. This is because change triggers a tremendous amount of unconscious anxiety in dysfunctional family systems so the siblings unconsciously seek to restore the 'old order' with a new sibling (or cousin, etc) power-holder who will behave like the dead parent. This is why siblings who may not have scapegoated before suddenly are saying the same things the parent said - they are carrying on the 'scapegoat narrative', which can come as a horrible shock to the FSA adult survivor, who thought they might be released from this role when the scapegoating parent died.
Great channel, thank you. The sadism you spoke of, along with the smirk, was enough for me to know my parents are narcissistic, and not just dysfunctional or toxic parents. I went no contact after seeing it clearly mid last year. My therapist is primarily using an intergenerational trauma framework, but from channels like yours, I've been bringing up these concepts into our sessions. Thanks for the mind opening concept, especially om FSA. Now, I have more of a deeper understanding of what I, until recently, had been going thru as a HSP.
Thank you, EV. Many therapists are happy to read my book (Rejected, Shamed, and Blamed) so as to better understand their client - you might mention it to her to see if she is up for that.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse Can the inter-generational trauma also be narcissistic?
@@Clare-tea Yes, a family can be affected / negatively impacted by intergenerational trauma AND also have family members with NPD. Both scenarios can lead to the scapegoating of one or more family members. I call this "getting the double whammy" as related to FSA and mentioned this in a recent video, in fact. Great question, btw!
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuseI think this is a really important point
Thank you, Rebecca. My siblings seem to believe their false narrative (though hard to know what another person believes vs. what they skillfully cooperate with and comfortably lie about) and yet, also in my family, there is a clear narcissistic system with triangulation, a golden child, the whole spiel. Is this common?
Yes. Although I only mentioned it briefly in this video, the pathological Family Projective Identification Process can co-occur with narcissistic family processes, particularly in families with intergenerational trauma. For example, the narcissistic parent may also have been traumatized in childhood, and there may be intergenerational trauma as well, but not always. And, there are consequences from being 'the Golden child', of course - the child is objectified by the parent as a 'perfect' reflection of themselves, which may contribute to their narcissistic presentation as an adult. Being objectified, even as 'the Golden child', is a form of dehumanization - It is the flip side of being scapegoated, which is also a form of objectification.
This description of the flip side of scapegoating whereby the golden child is also objectified and dehumanized is new to me and VERY helpful
I've seen this one first-hand. It also can go hand-in-hand with a 'golden child' being turned by the adoring parent into a surrogate spouse.
Thank you Rebecca.
I read both of your articles.
It seems to me the scapegoating abuse came from every way possible in my family. Sobering. And sad.
On the video 3 different word phrases you used resonates with me: "...as they start to understand "
" when you can step back and look in an objective manner" and "you get to take some space from it."
All 3 comments clearly state pivotal A-ha moments I have experienced.
Thank you for sharing your life work with us. It helps ALOT. I appreciate your wisdom, knowledge, and understanding. I am grateful to be learning.
Recently I was deeply encouraged as I read these words written 100 years ago by Geerhardus Vos:
If only we will take the courage to fix our gaze deliberately upon the stern countenance of grief, and enter unafraid into the darkest recesses of our trouble, we shall find the terror gone, for the Lord has been there before us, and, coming out again, has left the place transfigured, making of it by the grace of his resurrection a house of life, the very gate of heaven."
Happy Saturday, Jane
As always, thank you for sharing your own wisdom, Jane. I love this quote you share on grief. We are a grief-phobic society, and we all would be wise to embrace it and feel it deeply. Such a process is a critical aspect of healing from FSA.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse yes I have noticed people seem to run from grief. But for me grieving is a huge part of the process in coming to terms with FSA and the aftermath of trauma. Thanks Rebecca. Jane
@@janegreen5301 Grieving is hard for me not just because of our societal attitudes but because it was a family rule that "everything is ok" and "we are the best family." It was considered a virtue to keep problems to ourselves and to be not just happy but celebratory (of us) at all times and a failing, a character flaw, selfish even, to be sad. I'm going to go ahead and guess this is quite common in families who scapegoat.
Jane and MF: Next week I am doing a video on Disenfranchised Grief and Dr. Watson will be writing about grief and scapegoating on my blog - that's one week from today.
Great! Looking forward to it!
Another reason that FSA and FST are important is that they highlight the fact that emotional abuse can cause serious psychological injury. The most challenging consequences of any form of abuse is the psychological ones. It makes so much sense to study the impact of the various forms of emotional abuse. Without overt form of abuse, emotional abuse can be easily ignored in 'just' dysfunctional family. From your recent video on 'traumatic invalidation', we know how invalidation adds to the traumatic injury.
I agree, Anne. That is why I am now researching on, and defining, what I.named 'family scapegoating trauma' (FST); it is a blend of multiple types of trauma, which I will be discussing in a future article and video - and likely, my next book.
Hi doc, I finally after years looking for a trauma informed therapist. So I get one and she takes my coverage. I talk to her today for the first time and do my best to explain my situation and she says not one word. Nothing to make me feel better nothing. All she said when I asked her a question about my mother was, I’m not disagreeing your mother. I’m disappointed to say the least.
Sorry she said I’m not diagnosing your mother
Oh dear. If you plan to continue, you certainly can ask that she give you more feedback. If you don't plan to continue, I do have a link to search for a TIST-trained therapist (a certification program via Dr Janina Fisher, who's work I often mention in my videos - and where I got my certification from to treat complex trauma). Let me know if you want it.
I just read your book rejecting shaming and blaming I cried that you explained me all the way.. I’m in Australia is there anyway I can seek therapy through you as not one therapist I have seen explains how I feel and can explain this family dysfunction I want to heal half my life if not more passed looking for help
I want to enjoy my life but something is changing in me since the last betrayal of my mother she finally broke me and I’m loosing me
I am no longer taking weekly clients but am offering Single-Session Consultations. There is currently a 2 month wait or so. More information here: www.scapegoatrecovery.com/scapegoat-recovery-consultations/
This is the video that I've been needing to watch to begin to restore my sanity and begin healing. I knew a good portion of this instinctively but over time the family's narrative and their campaign to silence me when I attempted to talk about multi-generational trauma has beaten me down and confused me. I need to grieve that I've allowed this to happen and begin to find the skills to protect myself from letting it happen again.
So good to hear, Angelica. All the videos in this clinical series build on each other so I hope you get a chance to watch them all. Understanding what may have happened to them clinically and from a family systems perspective can be very helpful for FSA adult survivors.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse Indeed. The questions I posed in the comment section of your other videos are being answered as I make my way through the series.
You have a gift, Ms. Mandeville. There’s something about your approach that I respect and appreciate deeply. Not sure how to encapsulate it but I can point out what stands out in the work you present. The rigor of citing your sources. The sense that you’ve done your own journey to find answers. Your respect for theories or practices rooted in curiosity and compassion.
With laser-like precision it's amazing just how well you _"get"_ all of this madness and are able to concisely put it into words. In past years I sought out therapy with therapists that had nearly no understanding of narcissism in general, or narcissistic family dynamics, to the point of which it felt like I had to indoctrinate them to this specific type of insidious abuse. _(This extra effort can be so very draining to those seeking validation and to be heard.)_ So glad to see that there's a newer bunch of therapists who are specializing in this _warped_ subset vs. the everyday, garden variety therapists. _(
Thank you - I appreciate your kind comment very much. And yes, there are a few of us now - and there are sure to be more!
I'd love an additional follow up to this! 😊❤
My mother is covert and she determined the narrative for the rest of the family. I think that my siblings might unconsciously be fearful of losing acceptance, and that is why they are more inclined to believe my mother. I think she trained them into denial, and to not ask questions. I noticed she will cover lies for my brother (make sure theres some back story) but not for my sister or I.
As a kid, I would be sent to my room for "talking back," (not immediately dropping my experience to pretend that what someone else was asserting was truthfully what i experienced, when it most certainly was not! This was very confusing and infuriating for me as a small child.) My dad could see me, and he generally advised me to set aside my needs for the good of the family, so we could make it through the day. I know he would not have wanted me to understand that as giving up my needs, but that's what i did.
I think this is a difficult topic because, as you mentioned in the very beginning, all narcissistic families are dysfunctional, not all dysfunctional families are narcissistic. I think that about halfway through, the language you use takes on a "this vs. that" category, and i lost sight of the venn diagram. 😂 The majority of the signs of a dysfunctional family were the same as my narcissistic family, except i dont think my siblings and Dad ever joined in on blaming me for their own problems. Although they would reinforce my mother's narrative, and they would pick the low hanging fruit, they did not go out of their way to create betrayals like my mother. My sister tried when she was a teen, we had fights over clothes and makeup. I later picked up that my mom was pitting she and I against each other, and had never modeled working things out amicably.
My mother established the norms of communication in the system; or rather, the lack of communication.
My siblings DO believe what my mother tells them, I did too, though. I do not think my siblings have splits in their identities, (at least, not my brother. Maybe my sister, she is in the bestie role) but I know my mother is solidly in denial. She has gotten physically aggressive when I refused to comply, she wanted me to lie to my son's school and it was so confusing; that would be that open vs closed system thing. We are decades from the timeframe when i was a small child, one she could physically intimidate into submission. Now when she lashes out, I tend to feel more like myself, less at fault, less frantic and freaking out, more calm and observant. When she shows her true stripes, she is illustrating to me I am not nuts, and it is a huge relief from all the pretenses and BS!!
I am practicing saying "i disagree," with people outside of my immediate family. I came across the term selevtive mutism, the freeze i encounter when i am expected to defend or assert myself feels like it might be related. This inability has been getting in the way of things, lately.
I do cover dysfunctional family scapegoating abuse in detail in my introductory book on FSA - it's linked at the top of my resource page here ('Rejected, Shamed, and Blamed'): familyscapegoathealing.substack.com/p/resources
This is so interesting to me, because I feel I found here for the first time a more direct view on the whole family system not only at single roles. I think we have a mix of things in the family, but I´ll keep hanging in and try to understand more of this.
It seems I am actually the scapegoat/invisible child/empath and my brother is:
the parentified child, mistreated as a spouse surrogate after my father´s early death (planning/thinking through things, stuff like that in a way she couldn´t with my father actually), but he became also the power-holder (and towards me threatening, humiliating, sadistic)?
I don´t think there were a person like this in the family before, so everyone was blind, unable to see through the facade, and was eager to like and support him. And I was like, no, that´s not happening, please anyone has to stop this... but noone did.
I could hug you for saying is there a narcissist in the family who takes pleasure in deliberately torturing my client. 😭😭🙈🙈
I could only go off contact to both, first to my brother but later with my mother, too.
She can´t see me, and I´m so burned out after all these years and years with them unable to see where my shame and feelings of guilt came from. I had to go through the world with this "everythings´s fine" facade and this invisible wall of glass I couldn´t break, this urge to confess to sth and didn´t know what sin.
My mother is blind, even though she had one single aha moment 15 years ago after rehab when I was finally able to flee from home and still in rehab she decided out of the blue to sell the house as if it was nothing.
But despite the changes she just fell into denial mode again and every conversation with her felt like I am SOMEone, but not part of this family, not her child.
So if I listen to you talking about all these possible aspects so far I can only say: Yes, we have that, in different forms and represented by different family members.
Thanks a lot, because I consider this to be my Happy without Mother Day gift from you to me!! 💝💝☺☺
Kind regards
Betti
Hi Betti - Glad you found my channel. I can relate to so much of what you say (on a personal level) - many parallels. Do watch my video on being the Empath and scapegoated. Also, the video on Sibling Estrangement. You'll get a lot out of my Clinical series playlist as well - All are available on my channel's home or 'video' page. We have a nice community here also - check out the Community tab here on my channel as well. My book is called 'Rejected, Shamed, and Blamed' - Amazon has it internationally (including the paperback and hard cover version) as well as most major online book retailers. It will explain scapegoating and family systems more.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse
"I can relate to so much of what you say (on a personal level) - many parallels." Oh, that´s fascinating! 😮☺Thank you so much for responding! I will, stick around and watch these and other videos, read some comments, usually write down a few thoughts for myself or others!
I wonder what the covert narc Martyr video will tell me, that one caught my eye, too. 😅Let´s see what fits in the frame and what not so much.
@@011silbermondit is so helpful to be able to read and respond to comments. At last able to talk properly about this stuff- it’s like if you’re not an addict or chronically mentally unwell- it mustn’t have been/ isn’t that bad- also seems to me, many people can operate a dichotomy about what they professionally learn- and what they see and hear in every life.
My gosh....this has made sense of certain dynamics that didn't quite fit into parental narcissistic abuse for me. The closer I get to the truth the more profound these realizations are becoming. It's so disturbingly painful but also invalidating.
I literally have called myself the scapegoat for year's!!
My dad’s 2nd & 3rd wives I believe had/have sociopathic features. Both slandered me within family and seem/seemed to enjoy my suffering. They both married my dad for money (primarily) and hated me because I was his firstborn from his first marriage. I was also super close to my paternal grandparents and their kids weren’t. My grandparents helped raise me. My dad would stand up for me as a little girl with 2nd wife.... but his 3rd wife has been able to turn him against me. She has also pitted their daughter (half sister) against me. They (mother & daughter) enjoy “tag teaming” me whenever I have visited my dad. It’s all these mean covert games that no one else sees.
As I said in my most recent video, these scapegoating family systems are battlefields...
Thank you so much! These videos are so very helpful. I don't think that I can ever "undo" anything, or change the way that anybody is, but it helps me to put things in their proper place.
One thing, (probably the most significant thing), i've noticed has been my perception of myself as a child. I was far from a perfect angel, but it helps to put things into perspective.
Over the years, some stories have been repeated over and over, but what was told was not what I remembered. One example: I have repeatedly been reminded of how I "stole" a book from the school library, when I was in first grade. It has always felt like a character assassination. What had actually happened was that i couldn't find a book I wanted to read, so it was handed to me, and I took it home, and forgot about it.
I believe that what happened was that I was later told to clean up my room, so grabbed a pile of stuff, with the book in it, and put it in the closet.
Later, the book was overdue, and I was called into the school office. I remember being utterly bewildered and terrified. I didn't know what they were talking about. My mother finally found it at the bottom of the closet, and it was returned. To this day, my mother recounts the time when I stole "How The Grinch Stole Christmas." I maintain that I misplaced it. I was careless; not a thief. It's not unusual for a 6 year-old to misplace things, and I never understood why I had to be painted as evil.
Perfect example of what I call the "scapegoat narrative"!
I have found that narcs are very boring people. They will downgrade someone else to others because they honestly do not have anything deeper to talk about. They get attention from this which elevates them in their mind and by putting you down,lying about you they also again elevate themselves. They are very insecure people. There is usually some envy involved.
I really need a therapist to work through this pain…. I’m just beginning to see or accept that this might be my unfortunate roll…. Can you provide resources where I can ring someone who specializes in family systems and FSA specifically? I hope you know I watch all your videos and you have helped me immensely. You’re so knowledgeable and you have such a soothing disposition and voice. I really appreciate you
Thank you. If you're in the U.S., #4 on this list I made may help you find someone. In general, Licensed Marriage, Family Therapists (LMFT) have the most training in Family Systems, and therefore 'should' have a general understanding of family roles, but it is always wise to ask: www.scapegoatrecovery.com/2021/09/08/10-self-care-tips-for-adult-survivors-of-family-scapegoating/
I found this a very interesting watch. I grew up in an abusive family and I have been scapegoated by my in-laws. I haven't had any family of origin for some time and because of this my only family connections have been with my in-laws. Listening to the video it feels that both narcissistic and dysfunctional patterns seem to operate with them. My father-in-law fitted many of the criteria of narcism - him being the power centre, an enabling spouse and fits of rage when faced with non-conformity. When he died I thought that the unhealthy dynamics would stop, but they have continued with the children and grand-children - and I understand why thanks to your work. However, the behaviours, whilst still abusive, seem to fit the dysfunctional family trauma model - in particular, me being the identified patient and the family projection process taking place is obvious. Is it possible that I'm seeing the trauma impact from a narcissistic parent being passed down the generations as trauma (without creating more narcissists)?
Astute observations on your part, and yes, this can indeed happen. We know via research that many narcissistic parents suffered trauma in childhood, and that there can be intergenerational trauma in their families as well. So both dynamics can be going on at the same time. That's why I continue to state that there are no 'always' / 'never' family dynamics. Each family is unique, and family systems dynamics are very complex, whether dysfunctional or dysfunctional/narcissistic.
My narc mother would not be caught dead going to a counselor, but she did have an affair with one lol! I am guessing he told her she was just perfectly normal to get what he wanted.
Oh dear - that's a new one I hadn't heard before - and that's saying something! Yes, she may have received all kinds of validation, in that case, ugh!
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse yes🤮🤢
I bet it was a short affair 😂
You are so wonderful, insightful and caring Rebecca! I love your gentle loving voice and all that you teach!
Thank you so much! I so value your presence here and contributions to our growing community.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse You are most welcome! It is the least I can do to help!
It’s amazing that for a lifetime the spouse and sibling can hangin with the narcissist. The spouse parent in my case wanted to do even more harm than the head narcissist. The only time my narcissistic mother saw a therapist was when my younger brother was told to, and my mother went to see the same therapist to try and find out what my brother had said.
Not uncommon. Highly narcissistic people rarely attend therapy unless they see a benefit for themselves, specifically, to do so.
Thank you so much again for your help and all the hard work and thoughtful and thorough research that you do about this terrible problem and abuse that's way too common . Your indepth and wise words that is really helping me with my pain from being my family's scapegoat. God bless you for caring snd wanting to help us all out here suffering under the pain loneliness and isolation of being the family scapegoat.
You're welcome, Lynny. I am glad that my work on FSA has been helpful, and I also am helped by all of you here via your honest sharings and insights.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse I'm so glad that the help, wisdom and support and honesty that you give to all of us is helpful and rewarding for you too. God bless you 🙏❤️
👏🏼👏🏼 Opened and closed family systems are a new term for me. Please expand on this. My family is definitely CLOSED.
I will expand on this in a future video, and do mention this in a few videos here - my videos on narcissistic family systems, especially.
Thanks for your video! Definitely food for thought. Trying to figure out in my own family structure. Definitely have one sibling who seems to have narcissistic traits but I think it's a mixture of people who believe her narative and others are go along to get along people (inlaws). I had a situation last night where I was staying home with my mom, taking care of her after the caregiver left while that sibling and her kid and this other person in the household who's her right hand person could go out and see a sporting event. They came back and I told them the space heater was tripping the power strip which was quite warm that it was plugged into and that it wasn't supposed to be plugged into it. A person with a background as an electrician warned us not to do that (but to put it in a wall outlet). So the right hand guy (who factors heavily into my family's dynamic) snapped back and said all you have to do is reset the switch on the strip. So he plugged the heater back in and did that. After that, the others thanked him for getting the tickets to really good seats at the sporting event and how good a person he was. Over something he did that was unsafe for the household but his behavior towards me and the backup that he received suits some purpose. But it made me think about this video and narcissistic vs dysfunctional. My sibling has some narcissistic traits but what I sense is fear rather than anything like sadism. Just a feeling. Even in Ordinary People, which seemed to be more narcissist (including before Buck's death), you have that moment when Beth shows fear when Conrad tries to meet her halfway. Your videos help a lot as they offer up a fresh set of lens to look at situations differently. Also that three generational chart seems like a very good idea! I study my family's history anyway so I think I'll try to do this.
A very insightful comment. As I often say (as a result of my having worked with hundreds of families as a Family Systems therapist), each family is unique in their dysfunction, and this is why I do not recommend a cookie-cutter approach for FSA recovery, nor use black and white thinking or 'always' / 'never' terms when discussing dysfunctional / narcissistic family systems / behaviors. You bring up a very important point in your comment here: Fear drives much of human behavior, including with narcissistic people. I liken it to the Wizard of Oz, when the dog Toto pulls back the curtain, revealing a scared little man pulling all kinds of levers in order to project power and maintain control. That describes the narcissist, to some degree - Ultimately, there is no there there.
17:12 "You can tell that the siblings REALLY REALLY BELIEVE these things about you. They're not pretending to believe it-- 'Okay, I'm going to go along with this FALSE NARRATIVE of my narcissistic parents to stay in good...' These things are traumatizing'" Agreed. But at least I found out who the secret haters were all along. I just had no idea it be people I grew up with 50 years ago until the last few years. I will no longer talk to my siblings EVER again. (I would demand a one-hour apology and an explanation why it would never happen again I'm pretty sure that would not occur if it were to go that far because I'm sure as hell not going to chase them for some sort of relationship)
I'm releasing a video Saturday that mentions the perils of re-engaging with family after ending contact. You might want to tune in. Another video here mentions narcissistic families and 'the repair fantasy'. BTW, in a narcissistic family system (vs dysfunctional) they don't always believe the lies. In fact, often they are deliberately creating them. Meaning, the Family Projective Identification Process is not always driving the scapegoating; narcissistic dynamics are.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuseit is so helpful with every example how you give details. I’ve been looking at all this in depth for like decades
Thank you so so so much for the work you do Rebecca!!! It is desperately needed by so many. Grinds my gears that a lot of so called 'psychological experts' don't seem to know about or understand these dynamics, or maybe they do and have been acutely aware of them, but choose to enable the abusers, and protect them, instead of calling a spade a spade, and helping the ones who have been subjected to this abuse!!!
You're very welcome. There is very little training in Family Systems for clinicians - Extensive training in this field is required in the U.S. *only* if you are planning on becoming a licensed Marriage, Family Therapist (LMFT). Family Systems and its impact on a child / adult child is often ignored for this reason, or, it is viewed in simplistic terms without awareness of multigenerational trauma and its impact on a family and the individuals therein, etc.
Wow, that was so clear. Thank you. Sadly, based on this, my family is both. They all really believe these things about me, there’s inter generational trauma, and our mom has the narcissistic traits you mention. Yikes !
I’ve known I’m the scapegoat. I left to go to college and never came back to my home town but that didn’t stop any of this. Im 70 now and just recently went no contact with two siblings. Would love to do so with my Mom but my sibs “dumped” her care on me. Not fun taking care of an abusive mother.
You got the 'double whammy' when it comes to FSA - In such cases, limiting or ending contact is the only way the nervous system has a chance to recover. I encourage adult survivors of abuse to prioritize their nervous system like it is the King on the Chessboard of healing and recovery. I hope you are developing techniques to take care of yourself while caring for your mother. I have suggested to clients of mine in your position to get air pods or similar and play music as much as you can to hold on to your own space and serenity and tune out any verbal abuse associated with scapegoating behaviors.
Thank you for the air pod idea Rebecca. I like that. Will try it!
I know after listening to this particular episode that my scapegoating comes from a long history of generational dysfunction as opposed to narcissism, mostly due to alcohol abuse which they hide or live in denial of. I also feel it's more of a neglect issue than anything else. All healthy relationships require time & effort and if you're not willing to do that much then what is the point. I really wonder how many people remember always having to be the one to reach out and then finally giving up because no efforts were ever made in return. How many of you had to be the one that always called the parent but know if you didn't you wouldn't hear from them for months until the next special occasion? Or was it wrong of me to expect that they might care enough to call now and then just to see how I am doing? I actually got to the point that even speaking to my brothers made me nervous and that just isn't normal in my opinion. Anyway, great video once again. Thanks.
Well said. (And boy, do I relate. I once bought a family member a $100.00 phone card after they moved out of state and they did not use it to call me. Not once).
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse I fully understand and it's disturbing that they don't see it themselves, or, if they do, they choose the route of alienation over mutual love & understanding for what we have all been through.
With the invention of the internet and ability to now communicate by email, text or face to face via audio or video call, for FREE, they simply came up with a different excuse for why they don't use the internet for that purpose.
It's somewhat validating to find out after all these years, of neglect & abuse, that it was not I who had the problem, but actually them. They literally just re-scapegoated me all over again and that was enough to finally accept that going No Contact was a very good decision all around. I'd try to help them but it is pointless and I would be only ridiculed for daring to insinutate that the issue is also theirs to deal with.
I thank you, once again, for all you have done by sharing all this content. Cheers
@@DosBearI also was re scapegoated all over again- that’s a very good description- with awareness there are choices- painful, sad and more, but there’s a level of freedom too. Rebecca’s video on disenfranchised grief is very helpful- also for me I have close friends who are not young and have studied and worked in areas that provide knowledge. I’ve been so upset by telling and telling this and that and feeling that they just didn’t see it- despite all the knowledge. Now I know, I need protect myself, accept that this was invalidating and will be again, if I chose to go and talk more. At one point I was so glad to be able to direct a friend to Dr Rebecca Mandeville’s UA-cam channel, and 1 video, starting with her credentials- the response when I checked, was a question about going no contact with siblings, as in Are you going…. I asked had she read any of the comments… No.
I then said can you imagine if everything changed with your sibling X and over time, with her husband, she wanted nothing to do with you but every one else was ok and everything seemed fine? Of course she said No - i was discarded by a sibling I was very close to, she knew this already. My family are all so well mannered outside the church at family funerals- so this was taken at face value …etc. It’s all an interesting study on
human nature and the role of scapegoating. This here is a very healthy and safe space.
@@melliecrann-gaoth4789 I understand and appreciate you taking the time to give me your input. Cheers. You are not alone. ;)
@@DosBear thank you and take care of yourself - it’s healthy to see it and talk safely- ultimately this will improve the quality of one’s life.
Do families dominated by a powerful narcissist also sometimes engage in the Family Projective Identification Process? I recognize aspects of both in my family...I'm clearly the scapegoat and my brother is clearly the golden child (I've always known this, even before I knew these were clinical terms). I read the articles in your links, though, and I'm not sure which type of family we were/are. My father, a pretty obvious narcissist (though I don't know about full NPD, and he had some childhood trauma of his own but my mom didn't at all), died about a year and a half ago. I realize more and more, now that he's gone, how much of the traumatic invalidation was/is also the rest of my family as well. I imagine that knowing the mechanics of how it all came about/which type of dysfunction it is would help me figure out the best way to handle it going forward because, no matter what coping skills I use, I still get triggered around them way more often than I'd like and I would like to be spending less of my emotional energy on that (and "forgiveness" isn't a simple answer to everything because I already HAVE forgiven them but that doesn't make the ongoing gaslighting and invalidation feel any better). ***Hi all of you other Scapegoats out there! I'm sending you my love and support***
Yes, I call this "the double whammy". If the family is also an alcoholic/ addict family system this is "the triple whammy." (Dysfunctional, Narcissistic, Alcohlic). Some families are all three so the dynamics are extraordinarily destructive and the scapegoating can be incredibly intense. I address this in some lf my blog articles, BTW, at scapegoatrecovery.com and a bit in my book, Rejected Shamed and Blamed.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse I got your book today. It's amazing how much of what you describe fits my experience and I do think my family is both Dysfunctional and Narcissistic. My mom was clearly the enabling spouse, and I truly intend and think I've forgiven her, now that my father is dead and there's no longer anything to enable...and yet, some of the things she says are so astonishingly lacking in self-awareness and so historically revisionist, it triggers me all over again and I don't know how to not feel that way. I just focus on not outwardly reacting because that never goes well, and for the most part I can manage that. Either way, it's exhausting and I tend to get depressed and/or dissociate when I spend time with my family.
Glad my book was helpful!
@@Rachel-en5ntyou write very well and I get so much of what you’re talking about.
Wishing you well.
@@melliecrann-gaoth4789 thank you for your kind words!
Thank you so much for making these videos Ms. Mandeville, I can always feel a sense of safety watching your videos, validation and can lower my guard at least for a moment. One thing that I do have trouble with is deciding after going no contact with my extended family wether I should also stop speaking with tte few relatives that k do get along with or delete them from social media as well or not. It does bother me that the narcs in my family do have power over my cousins and that they in turn can keep them in the know of what I do or don’t do. I’m this 👌🏼close to doing that however I realize it would leave me almost alone except for a few online friends 😞
It is possible for many FSA adult survivors to remain in touch with non-harmful family members (extended, etc, and even nuclear, in some cases). However, to protect their privacy, they don't share anything with they wouldn't want scapegoating family to know.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse thank you for replying Ms.Mandeville ,I had thought of that but was unsure wether I would be overreacting or just acting accordingly. I do have most of my extended fam on Facebook but I’m hardly on there however I am always on and posting on Instagram and that space I can keep more private. Thank you so much!
This is a tough one for me, and no doubt nearly all of us, because of course relatives (cousines, nieces, nephews especially for me) will be hearing a lot of lies such that when I'm with them they will not truly be with me, largely the case before I left but probably worse now that I am "the crazy one who deserted them." So, I'm trying to go with my gut and currently no social media and only one cousin and her children who also has experienced some level of scapegoating abuse and is a family therapist. It's hard. I could use more information on this and also on what my children should think about when/if they have contact with extended family. Maybe we should create some sort of scapegoat convention to meet each other? This can be such an isolating experience.
@@MF-my3db Hi 👋🏼 just saw your message, you know what that sounds wonderful! A convention 🤔 wow I hadn’t thought of that. It is very isolating at times even when you just Grey rock certain relatives you may have to be around with such as when you both work at the same company. Is there such a group one can attend? I have heard of Adult children of narcissistic parents (ACON) and other Alcoholics Anonymous variant groups but I have personally kept away since I’m very much secular and I’ve heard those groups involve the use of the concept of a deity to bond and overcome certain obstacles.
@@MF-my3db I am speaking with some psychologist colleagues about having a retreat for FSA adult survivors - A big undertaking and it won't be this year, but it is something I've always wanted to do - I think we'd all have a blast - and no explaining would be needed, imagine that!
My family honestly was a mix of both. A father who was a narcissist w/ some sociopathic slants for sure. There was family trauma in his history but he drove this. My mother was a flying monkey covert narcissist also who thought he was a saint. She protected me only once when she thought he was going to kill me. Child protective service almost called by my aunt who my older sister called in fear that he would kill me. I wasn’t more than 6. My aunt told me this story many years later. Not my memory but hers. Can’t make this stuff up. : ) Thankfully my dad and I had a come to Jesus moment years later and we salvaged a respectful relationship for his last ten years but it took me standing up to him. I thought he’d kill me but he actually stood back. I saw him as a traumatized little child and forgave him. He knew what he did and I truly believe he was sorry. My older sister many years later become my father in his younger years and unfortunately my mother & my younger sister golden child let her treachery destroy our family. She was full of rage and hate and took it out on anyone in her path. Ex husbands then me. Always needed an enemy. I don’t talk with either of them anymore my mom or younger sister. My older sister just died. Literally the family dysfunction that killed her but that’s another topic. She was 53. We’re 15 months apart. I likely will stay away even for my own mother’s funeral. My younger sister and mom are pathetic and cowardly to me. They live in their matrix. I don’t want any part of that reality. It took away many years of my life and almost killed me.
You have a great amount of insight, Jayme. Thank you for sharing your story here - There's a reason I mention the movie 'The Matrix' in my book, Rejected, Shamed, and Blamed. Obviously, you get it.
Thank you Rebecca, this is such good analysis structure, in understanding and recovering from family trauma, and it's associated repercussions. Your weekly UA-cams are a must watch for me, very helpful.
You are so welcome, Dan, and I'm pleased to have you here!
A few years ago narcissism Was rarely recognized as such a horrible problem. Especially if you had narc parents and the horrible damage they could do to you.
The therapist I went to was not helpful In fact she ended up hurting me more because she didn't believe me.
Sadly, this can and does happen. I'm sorry you experienced this. There is more awareness now in the Mental Health field today, but more through a grassroots / social media movement that licensed clinicians are now latching onto. You'd be amazed by how many Continuing Education flyers for licensed professionals I get for seminars on Narcissism these days - something that did NOT happen even a few years ago.
I have a question.
I come from at least two generations of narcissistic power holders and since narcissism ,along with other personality disorders is usually developed from early childhood trauma,then it would denote that there’s inter generational trauma,just like dysfunctional families?
The thing is I can’t trace back the traumatic events. Isolated ones later on in life in adulthood,but not childhood,which is where narcissistic behavior is developed right? Maybe because narcissists hide anything that make them look weak and inferior?!
Great questions. A family system can be both traumatized/dysfunctional and narcissistic. This video of mine I am linking you to may help you suss out what type of family system you grew up in, see what you think: ua-cam.com/video/AD-rwWEbcWE/v-deo.html
What a specific topic to specialize in.
Thank you for your work. Just found your channel. Subscribed.👍
Welcome aboard!
Thank you for sharing and explaining your insights. Once in a while I simply need to listen to your words in order to stay compassionate to my present state of mind. 💐
You're very welcome 🙏
🙏
I've learned so much from listening to you. It's so healing. The affirmations are wonderful too Thank you ❤️
Thank you for letting me know, Franklin. I appreciate it and it is good to know you are getting support from my channel.
They hate everybody not just me.
I never can find a video on "single parent narcissistic families." Could you please do a video addressing poverty and single parent malignant narcissism? This, along with how the children fare once they are adults (sibling estrangement)?
Intriguing concept. I'll consider it, thanks for the suggestion. As with scapegoating, I imagine this has not been adequately researched. I'll see if I can weave this into one of my surveys that I'll be releasing later this year.
Thank you. I feel real somehow
Thankyou
You're welcome.
Thank you so much... i'm learning so fast!
had severe allergies, asthma and eczema as child. once leaving home at 18 and staying away, most symptoms and severity disappeared. however, everytime i must be in contact with any of them, i immediately flareup. am 70 now and after a recent contact am covered , mb 75 of body, with eczema. there is no doubt. "the body keeps the score"
Yes. You may want to watch this video here: ua-cam.com/video/ytSdn8nQCBg/v-deo.html
always spot on. You're a gifted pro.
Thank you, Sheila, much appreciated.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse Back at you. Appreciate your videos. Your insights are so helpful. Thank you for your generosity in posting these segments.
I love the community here - Thank you for your kind acknowledgement!
All your content is gold dust❤ thank you
You're welcome - and thanks!
Rebecca- your comment about the narcissistic person in the therapy room- reluctantly- charming the therapist ( another form of this is getting people to feel sorry for them, without saying a word) or getting enraged and storming out- as they do not like to have their power challenged- the storming out you described as having happened “more than once” in your therapy room- sounds like skilful therapy work to me.
I gladly accept the compliment, thank you.
Yip…
My 91 year old mother has been making excuses for her role in the dysfunctional and Narcissistic family behaviour… I grew up in.
I’m the scape goat.. ! 😢😢
It’s come to ahead very Recently… MY mother has recently admitted ONE part she played… in my extreme trauma … !
But she did the unthinkable 😢… whilst admitting she’d harmed me..
She phoned my adult Daughter and my Brother.. and Told them… I was bullying her…. (Not true)
All I did was ask her to admit.. her wrong doing.. It upset her soo much., She lied told Them I bullied her..
But is NOT willing to admit… how she’s been using her rights as a Grandmother , and condoning and enabling my adult Daughter’s abusive behaviour…towards me.. !
By not telling her OFF ever. If she’s disrespectful to me. When the 3 of us are together.!
I’ve NOW been blocked by my daughter.. for good.,
She’s (my mother)almost enjoyed it., (I’ve watched her)
I had NOo part in my daughter’s Wedding.. My daughter pushed me out and Put my mother in my Place…
As she tells me she can’t speak to my daughter.. Because she’s afraid my daughter won’t like her ever again😮
I’m an empath very agreeable… ! BUT I’m strong .. I have back bone and depth.. and integrity…. I’m a R. N. Have seen life…
She’s refused to tell her ( my daughter ) OFF… ever… she’s very argumentative and rude…
Sadly my husband refused to Discipline her.. too.. He didn’t want to hurt her..
I did lovingly and Kindly..
I’m the BAD one my daughter tells me..
She’s married out of house…
I grew up in chaos, we had nOO boundaries… !
I’m in the middle… My older sister bullied me 24/7.. my mother refused to stop it..
This is what she admitted to me… from age 7 to 18..
I refused to have my sister as a bridesmaid 33 yrs ago..
my mother cried.. that I had too.
I did give in🥲
My sister.. and myself are cordial.. but we have never had a deep conversation..
My mother allowed my sisters behaviour to dominate our family.. !
Soo sad there was Noo family counselling in the 70’s !
My mother of 91.,reads 2 books per week.
And is still fully mobile and agile.. I do realise it was traumatic at this age to admit such a thing..
Outsiders would say Why did I do this.. ?
She’s infiltrated my daughter.. and Taken her away from..me.
My husband is NOT interested in trying to help. By disciplining or talking or having therapy with myself or my daughter… !
Thank you for your insight and Having this platform!
God Bless you! 🙏🏻🌸
Jenny
Thank you for sharing a part of your scapegoat story. I do at times see a scapegoating parent deliberately turn the scapegoat target's children against them. I can't find much out there written on this so I plan to discuss it in a future video. It can be quite shocking, angering, and devastating to the FSA adult survivor when they realize what has happened - that their own child is now scapegoating them, too.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse Thank you soo kindly for you reply..
I asked my mother this afternoon to please contact my brother and my daughter, to apologise to them for over- reacting.. And causing them to believe I bullied my mother… So therefore they’ve both gone Noo contact with me… 🥲
Life is precious and short., I need to have contact with my child..
I’m still in shock that one’s Mother, can cause soo much pain and hurt. Soo late in her life and mine.. !
Take Care.. 🙏🏻🌸🎉and I will keep listening to your videos 🌟🌸
Jenny- they never change, it’s only tactics that change and the more toxic ones make sure they leave a post the grave route for others to follow. All atrocities and major crimes against humanity, players like these thrived within and rose high in the esteemed ranks. The only difference was they were mostly male.
I’m having a hard time having a relationship with my mom because I’m being scapegoated by my siblings and get gaslighted…it’s torture
Understandable you would feel that way. Did you already watch my video on scapegoating and sibling estrangementand/or read my book on this form of family abuse (Rejected, Shamed, and Blamed)?
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse no but I listen to every one of your videos and they hit home
@@fishfanaI’d say your mom has some sort of a role to play in this also. I have kids, as a mom I know stuff I never knew before and also things have not been easy and I’ve needed to dig deep.
@@melliecrann-gaoth4789 I agree and that’s why it’s hard to heal and move on
I’ve joined a group very reasonable but it’s all about narcissists, not family scapegoating. Don’t think it’s helping me. You book really helped me, so easy to read and understand.
I have a link to a Facebook group for scapegoated adult daughters of narcissistic mothers. If you want the link, let me know.
Hi Rebecca. I have a question regarding the difference between those familysystems. Would you say it's more common in the narcissistic system that the scapegoat role rotate among siblings?
I can recognize my family a bit in both systems. A thing I have noticed is that my mum seem to take turns in idealizing and scapecoating me and my sister. When I'm in the scapegoat role I tend to be more vulnerable though because the rest of my family often join her. It get a lot worse if I show any emotion in response to the scapegoating and if I try to set bounderies. So I feel I grew up with a lot of fawning behaviors and I have a hard time being assertive.
Hi Emma, I am actually releasing a follow up video to this one this Saturday where I will go into detail regarding scapegoating in families where there is both intergenerational trauma / the Family Projective Identification Process going on, as well as narcissistic dynamics - all of this contributing to the scapegoating abuse. I do discuss roles in this video, and I think I even mention in this video the roles can indeed change. ALL roles that lock family members into place are maintained through unconscious systemic anxiety and projection, including the 'golden child' role, which I also cover in this video. Hopefully you have already subscribed - tap the notification bell to ensure you are notified of my latest video release - I typically release videos Saturday mornings PST.
Thank you! I'm looking forward to listen to the next video. Your videos make me feel stronger and more confident in a time when I really needed that.
Relieved to have you
Glad you're here!
Really good thank you
You're very welcome.
I bought your book today.
Good to hear - I hope you find it helpful.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse Dear Rebecca,
It's great to hear from you here.
Please let me know how I can send you a private message.
Yours sincerely,
Elizabeth
yess, don't ever get unreversed, stay mirrored always, we don't want you to flip the image right (just kidding you) Great subject, spannxxx!!!!
Thanks so much! 😊
Watching your videos makes me feel like I would never consider forgiving the family member who undermined me. I realize from your video, that it is likely that this person also suffered abuse. At this moment, it is too raw to consider forgiveness.
As a trauma-informed therapist, I invite clients (and viewers/subscribers) to consider the concept of 'radical acceptance' versus 'forgiveness' - I'll be doing a video on this soon and wrote an article on this here: www.scapegoatrecovery.com/2023/11/05/radical-acceptance-and-scapegoat-recovery-the-power-of-accepting-what-is/
Spot on....narc father who has groomed two brothers, and so the cycle just continues.
Like I say in my book, it is a toxic, poisonous family recipe that is passed down through the generations...
This other UA-camr recommended YOUR book! Heidi Preibe
Yes, her video / article mentioning my book came out long ago - and I appreciate the referral.
Thanks!
Much appreciated - !!
I appreciate you differentiating differnent kinds of family system problems. I am curious if it is possible for one family system to reflects both intergenerational trauma with a high degree projection and imposed roles from one parent along with narcissistic abuse in the other parent? If so, how would the healing path be different than in a less complex system?
Yes, this absolutely can happen. I plan to do a dedicated video answering your question as this has come up a lot recently - and the question is an important one! And yes, the complexity does increase, but in the end, we must "follow the wisdom of our nervous system" in regard to our own FSA healing and recovery process.
Psycho-Education ROCKS!
V A L I D A T I O N !
Yes - and it's about time. Linking you to a resource list I put together for FSA adult survivors in case you are wanting more support: www.scapegoatrecovery.com/updated-fsa-recovery-resources-2023/
The Family Projective Identification Process article ‼️🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯‼️
Glad you took the time to read it. Very important to know about this.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabusethis understanding had changed my life overnight. I know that sounds dramatic but I feel like I’ve been released from prison
This was the big "A-HA" moment for me as well when I learned about it while taking Family Systems in grad school. Life changing only begins to describe it. I'm thinking of doing another video on it this coming week and give some examples from my practice, etc. Very hard concept to explain well and for others to 'get' - You need a good foundation in Psychoanalytic theory and practice which, like Family Systems, seems to not be the sort of 'fast food' fare many are being spoon-fed today on these platforms (or even in grad schools for therapist training). The scapegoat is energetically 'tarred and feathered' via this pathological systemic projective identification process and there are typically similar individual projective identification processes going on as well, leaving the FSA child / adult survivor literally smothered in projective energies.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse I’ve been to countless therapists, coaches, doctors, psychics, read books, listened to podcasts- and my mantra the whole time has been, “someone say something that makes sense”. I immediately understood this concept but I think it’s because I’ve been looking. I got your book today. Looking forward to our session, whenever that time comes. I’m very grateful to be on the list.
I also intuitively 'got' it, on a visceral level. I'll check emails next week to make sure we know your ID for potential cancellation/scheduling purposes. I do believe I will be able to assist you in your journey...Do read my book first - you will get more out of the single-session consultation that way.
...enmeshment issues, as well.
I love you ❤️
I'm glad you are here...
Thanks for another great video. Is it possible that at some point, in a dysfonctional family, a member of the family develops narcissism and their children experience the consequences of types of family systems? Thanks.
Great question. NPD typically develops in the teens or early adulthood. However, individual and/or family stressors can result in more extreme behaviors in someone who has borderline personality disorder (BPD), histrionic personality disorder (HPD), etc, which can present as NPD.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse Thanks for quick reply. 😊
@Dr. Manderville: how do I find a therapist in my area (Michigan) to tease through these topics to help me gain understanding ? Thank you ~
See number 4 here: www.scapegoatrecovery.com/2021/09/08/10-self-care-tips-for-adult-survivors-of-family-scapegoating/
💜
Although I believe in the generational trauma, sometimes is a form of keeping the narcissist and enablers safe and no accountability
Yes, I get how someone has to break the cord, but that doesn't relief anything 😢.
Hi Mary, thank you for your thoughtful comment. As a Family Systems specialist, I actually distinguish between narcissistic family scapegoating abuse (FSA) and dysfunctional FSA. I have two separate playlists on the home page of my channel here, and a video there that explains the difference - Differences that were evident during the course of my FSA research these past 15 years. And I agree with you (and I say this in my book, Rejected, Shamed, and Blamed as well): Narcissistic FSA may or may not be driven by generational trauma and/or pathological projective identification processes and may be driven by individual pathology. One of the reasons endings contact with such family members (or the entire system) is recommended. Linking you to a list of recovery resources I put together in case you see something of interest: www.scapegoatrecovery.com/updated-fsa-recovery-resources-2023/
Can you have a blend of both types of family scapegoating in a family (ie, be both narcissistic and dysfunctional)? My mother is clearly a malignant narcissist and I think my sister is a step up from that (both my mum and my sister know what they are doing) but other family members seem to really believe the projection. However, my mum is also the daughter of an incest victim. I think my dad's side of the family is more dysfunctional (alcoholic and intergenerational/colonial trauma) but his mum may also have been narcissistic.
Great question - and important. Yes, absolutely. For example, one might have a highly traumatized, dysfunctional family system - There may be generations of (unrecognized, unaddressed trauma). Due to trauma, there is typically both individual intrapsychic and systemic 'splitting'. Via this trauma and 'splitting', there are likely to be personality disordered people present in the family (i.e., one or both parents). In such families, there may be family members with strong narcissistic tendencies and/or they may have (undiagnosed) NPD. These families may also have addiction / alcohol use effecting behaviors as well. Here's a 2-part video I did on 'splitting' which addresses this phenomenon (linking you to part 1; part 2 can be accessed at the end of the video) - and I also discuss this in my introductory book on FSA, 'Rejected, Shamed, and Blamed': ua-cam.com/video/4CFqA0yWPhs/v-deo.html
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse, thank you. This is much appreciated.
Can a family be made up of both components?
Yes, definitely, I mention that briefly in this video and in some past ones I address it; I'll cover that issue again soon.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse For your prompt reply, I thank you ~
I’d love to share my stories live with you.. for educational purposes…😊
What about when it's both.
This is the exact subject I will be covering tomorrow. Video comes out tomorrow by 11 am PST. Basically a 'part 2' to this video. Hope you tune in.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse I absolutely will! Struggling so much right now with all of this… might be time to try to find a therapist that might understand but so far even on this platform you’re the only one who truly seems to.
Appreciate what you do so much - just started your book and it’s so incredibly insightful !!! I have to pace myself or I break down a bit.
You’re remarkable. Clearly you know this issue on a personal heart level and in a deep way. Hate that for you but am so grateful you exist and get it.
Gives me hope someday I’ll find a reason for my own walk that helps others too. Hope isn’t a strength of mine so feeling any is a step up and I’m grateful to you for it.
CC
They are dysfunctional
Dear Rebecca C. Mandeville,
Confidentially, my trauma informed therapist in my session a couple of days ago told me that no one can say they have been raised as a scapegoat in a malignant narcissistic family unless you are a qualified diagnosing psychologist who is diagnosing the father or mother in a therapy setting once the people who use FSA are willing to go to therapy which they likely would not be willing to attend. Please tell us here what your opinion of this is as I felt it was a betrayal of my intelligence and I simply wept and said I will not work with you anymore. Best wishes for your health from a confidencial person
Hi Elizabeth, I did answer this comment from you the other day, perhaps it was on another post? Maybe check your email notifications from UA-cam. If you aren't getting notification, go back to the subscribe button on the home page of my channel, click it, and then click on one of the little bells indicating your notification preference.
Can it be both?!
Absolutely. I'm going to do a video on this soon. In fact this is rather common in dysfunctional families - one or more family members may have high narcissism related to early childhood trauma, or having been the 'golden child' when young, etc.
Is it possible that a family has both dysfunctional AND narcissistic scapegoating dynamics going on?
Absolutely. There can be overlaps. For example, a family may be impacted by unrecognized intergenerational trauma, and there may also be narcissistic dynamics, or full blown narcissism, that also influences the system, resulting in scapegoating abuse. I discuss the differences in this video, btw: ua-cam.com/video/AD-rwWEbcWE/v-deo.html
@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse Interesting, thank you for replying! I could heavily relate to both family dynamics.
I hope and pray that you are recovering more and more every day, Rebecca. 🙏💜🌹
I would dare not call myself a 'empath' their are problems when you are calling yourself something when their is nobody who has ever told you so.
Whether anyone calls someone an 'Empath' or not, there is scientific evidence that not only do Empaths exist, but Super Empaths exist as well. I cover some of this in my book on FSA in my chapter on the Empath (Rejected, Shamed, and Blamed): www.vice.com/en/article/xwj84k/super-empaths-are-real-says-science-mirror-touch-synaesthesia
You don’t have to tell anyone else what your truth is until you’re ready to. I never thought I was an empath, but I am. It’s a survival technique. I had to read the room to know how to survive it. That made me very aware and skilled at understanding how other people feel even when they’re not conscious of it. Don’t think about label. Think about what empaths can do and see if that fits. ❤❤❤
Can't a family have both?
Yes, definitely. I call this "the double whammy" and mention this in a different video, as well as my book (Rejected, Shamed, and Blamed). Add in alcoholism / addiction and you have "the triple whammy" (!)
@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse yup, there was alcohol, too. What a mess. Thank you, Rebecca