@@broadstbullies ?? Helton was great. Screw Coors Field, he was just as great as Larry Walker in Colorado, maybe better. But yeah, others being let in I don't agree with.
I don't really care for WAR stuff, but Will Clark's is over 56, even Andy Van Slyke's is over 40, a few over Baines. I guess it's the career stats, and compiling. But he was solid good for at least 20 seasons.
I mostly agree with Dog, but Joe Mauer is not a Hall of Famer. He doesn’t have the bulk on his resume to justify him making it. Yes, he won an MVP and multiple batting titles. Yes, he’s a .306 lifetime hitter. But Dog has said it before, part of greatness is longevity and Mauer did not have that in the least. The MLB HOF is becoming embarrassing. It should be for all time greats not for sometime greats.
Dude didn’t even have 1K rbis. The Mauer thing seemed weird to me. Are we really going to make like the catcher position is good for nothing offensively
Borderline guys should not be first ballot HOFers. Gary Carter had more HOF seasons than Mauer, much more power, higher 7 year peak WAR, won a WS and is second all-time in JAWS for catchers. It took him 6 tries to get in. Got less than 50% of the vote his first 3 years of eligibility. Standards for HOF have come way down over time.
Also not fair to guys like Mattingly and Hernandez that unfortunately were on the ballot for a period of years where they actually put in hall of famers and they were left out. If they were around now on these ballots they would be first ballot HOFamers.
Dog is usually a hard grader and the fact Mauer is ok with him is crazy. No way Mauer is a Hall of Famer. Dog just said Mauer was mostly a DH 1B over catcher and he has less than 1000 RBIs.
I was gonna type about Belle in here and then I see you beat me to it! His numbers are staggering. Best hitter of the 90's and most feared player in baseball due to how hard he played and his determination. Again look at the numbers no argument can be made otherwise. Also only player in the history of the game to hit 50 HR and 50 doubles in a season.
That's because the sports writers didn't like him. It's a popularity contest. Some ballplayers get their asses kissed and others get their assessment kicked
Adrian Beltre and Billy Wagner in the HOF is a complete joke. Billy Wagner is in because why he was the first to throw 100? Beltre is just another Cal Ripkin he’s in because he played so many games and didn’t get injured.
Agreed . I've come to the realization it's just a watered down hall now and I have no high expectations for it. Whoever gets in at this point I don't even get upset about it is what it is. Unfortunately.
You don’t know what you’re talking about. Adrian Beltre has 93 career war. I know WAR shouldn’t be the end all be all, but 90 War means you’re a hall of famer.
Didn't even get 1,900. Brian Kenny sure thinks he's a no doubter. Gil Hodges and Tony Oliva got in with under 2000 Hits (Vet's Committee), Andruw Jones was recently tracking at 70%, but most likely won't make it.
@@robertanderson2898It’s definitely tough to do. Tony Oliva made it when the Vet’s considered his accolades and dominance for the first 10 years of his career. One of the best pure hitters of the 60s and early 70s
Well I say Oliva is a notch or two above Utley, even though the huge WAR difference (overrated stat IMO). Utley debuted at 28% I believe. It should go up, but he's just not a HOFer in my book.@@alexlondynn4440
Chase utley didn’t lose MVPs just because of Pujols he lost them to multiple of his own teammates, Ryan Howard and Jimmy Rollins. In his prime wasn’t even considered the best player on his team
Utley is hall of good not even very good. Had a few great years, but fall off was huge. Kenny is a joke. Dog is wrong about several people including Wagner. His separate standard for closers in the World Series is hypocritical when players like Ted Williams were horrible in the post season. He picks and chooses when certain things are important for the hall. Kenny actually made a good point about Eck, Gossage and Rivera who all had colossal failures in the Series. Dog had no comeback just yelled. Can’t believe I actually gave Kenny credit for something. He’s the worst.
@fortynights1513 What do I have to say, you ask? Well, ok, let me say this, if you have to come back to this thread long after our previous debate was closed (and I clearly won that debate), one thing is clear. You are quite obviously a paid agent of Billy Wagner. Perhaps his sports agent. Actually, perhaps you are Billy Wagner himself using fortynights as a username. LOOK, THIS DEBATE IS OVER, AND I WON THE DEBATE. The very fact that you lost the debate has been eating away at you for many days after we finished our exchange, so much so that you could not handle wrestling with the idea that you lost so you had to come back and revisit the debate with more laughably bad arguments based in logical fallacies. You should do some research about logical fallacies, you could learn a ton. [Footnote: one final point, if you are Billy Wagner or Wagner's agent, listen up. I said above in my remarks that you are a very good player. But you choked when the lights were the brightest. Multiple times choked. Choked so much and so bad in the clutch that your manager refused to put you into the game later in the series GAME 7, NINTH INNING, TIE GAME after your multiple chokes, as discussed in this very video. Postseason ERA of not 5.0, not 6.0, not 7.0, not 8.0, not 9.0. POSTSEASON ERA OVER +10.0. Not from 1 or 2 postseason games, or even 3 or 4 postseason games, ERA over +10.0 from 14 POSTSEASON GAMES! Unbelievable! You are a VERY GOOD player, but you choked when the lights were brightest. YOU ARE NOT WORTHY OF THE PRESTIGE OF THE HALL OF FAME. PERIOD.] I know y ou will respond to this, but you need to understand this will be my last message.
Doggie is right on Wagner. Even with great regular season numbers, the Closer entire career is based almost exclusively on his performance in the playoffs. Just like Field Goals Kickers in the NFL. There is a reason only a very small amount of Closers led by “Mo” have gotten in. And rightfully so.
@@jakesorrentino7230 Closers are NOT judged by sample size. PERIOD! That's the whole point. The closer either closes in the playoffs or chokes. Billy Wagner is a CHOKER!
@@hosiahjonesWas Billy Wagner good enough in aggregate to make the Hall of Fame with as poor a playoff resume as he had? I ask because if you are judging their entire career on the playoff performance, then Wagner pitched 903 regular season innings and only 11.2 playoff innings. Even Mariano Rivera who played longer and pitched in more postseason innings still pitched only 141 playoff innings as opposed to 1,283.2 innings in the regular season. Not that postseasons aren’t important to factor in, but it just feels silly to me to disregard over 90% of the innings they actually pitched.
@@fortynights1513 yet another sample size argument. Total BS. The playoffs is the only reason for the sport. That's what matters most. Yet you cannot list a single postseason moment of greatness (or even goodness for that matter). The man was not even average in the playoffs, he was trash! Seriously. Trash! Your sample size argument is like getting your homework right but failing the test. Nobody cares about your homework when you UTTERLY FAIL the test.
@@hosiahjonesIf you don’t think his regular season career is good enough to offset his playoff career, then I could see why you wouldn’t favor him. Personally, I don’t care how trash you are in the playoffs, if you have enough of a regular season career, you belong in my book, and Wagner (as well as Joe Nathan who went one and done) did well enough in aggregate. If they performed badly in the playoffs, then that’s just not something going for them. And that goes for all positions in my opinion. One other question: What would you say about a closer that never appeared in the playoffs? And would Wagner have a better Hall of Fame case if he put up the same stats for a team that never reached the playoffs? If you say sample doesn’t matter, and you are going strictly off of postseason performance, then how would you judge someone who has none?
How is Mauer a hall of famer and not Keith Hernandez what a joke Keith has 11 gold gloves batting chips and a MVP what are we doing here smh so mauer gets in for a few batting titles that’s it? He wasn’t a great fielder and wasn’t the best player at his position and Andruw jones isn’t in ? He has 430 home runs and 10 gold gloves only Griffey jr and Willy Mays have done that that a first ballot hr is top 3 ever defensively at CF this is why baseball is trash these writers have to much power and are out of touch
I think you need to take a look at your facts. Joe Mauer was a 3-time GG winner at Catcher, so he was a great defender. He’s the first catcher to ever win a batting title, and he won 3 of them. You’ve gotta remember, he’s a catcher. That COMPLETELY changes the way he’s looked at. Also, found this stat “There have been only three players in MLB history with at least 7900 PA who have played at least half of their games at catcher and who have had a career OPS+ higher than 120, and their names are Joe Mauer (124 OPS+), Yogi Berra (125), and Johnny Bench (126).” Seems pretty significant.
Keith Hernandez was a first baseman who didn’t hit 200 home runs and didn’t have 2200 hits. GG numbers aren’t as significant at a primarily offensive position, and he just doesn’t have good offensive numbers for a 1st baseman in the HOF.
In the end, you’re wrong about him not being a great fielder and not being the best player at his position. I mean, he won an MVP in 2009. That means he was the best player at ANY position that year. There’s no other catcher from 2005-2013 who’s on the same level as Joe.
@@alexlondynn4440 ok and Keith Hernandez has batting title and a mvp also with 2 World Series rings and the greatest defensive 1st baseman EVER mauer isn’t even a top 10 defensive catcher so clearly u don’t know baseball writers vote on people they like 1st baseman is still the infield if u ever watch Keith play which u probably didn’t then u would understand if u are the greatest at something with rings and a mvp that’s a hall of famer Ozzie smith is a hall of famer his offensive was TERRIBLE but he is the greatest defensive SS ever same principle and he has no MVPs no silver slugger sad doesn’t have 3000 hits but baseball has lower standards now to let Maurer and Helton in so clearly u are wrong
@@alexlondynn4440 3 time gold glove award is great are u kidding me? 3 out of 14 years is great what planet are u on and he played DH u forget he was in the AL he didn’t play his whole career at catcher u can’t be a great defender with only 3 gold gloves cut it out u don’t know the meaning of great he was GOOD not close to great
The Jeff Kent disrespect is unbelievable
That is politics because Kent is an asshole. I think Kent's defense hurts him too.
Brian didn’t disrespect Jeff Kent
Jeff Kent was the man
It's deserved.
@@jackstretch3235 I'm just saying in general by the writers
LOL I absolutely love when they argue back and forth and talk over each other .......
It was amazing
These two are great
THE HALL SHOULD BE SMALL! STOP THE DILUTION! Thank you Mad Dog.
The fact that Harold Baines is in renders all discussions moot. It is now the hall of pretty good.
Baines last year. Helton this year. They are letting very good players in not great. It's not a good trend
That was the veterans committee, not the writers. Blame veteran players.
@@broadstbullies ?? Helton was great. Screw Coors Field, he was just as great as Larry Walker in Colorado, maybe better. But yeah, others being let in I don't agree with.
I don't really care for WAR stuff, but Will Clark's is over 56, even Andy Van Slyke's is over 40, a few over Baines. I guess it's the career stats, and compiling. But he was solid good for at least 20 seasons.
@@robertanderson2898 Longevity is NOT ENOUGH.
I mostly agree with Dog, but Joe Mauer is not a Hall of Famer. He doesn’t have the bulk on his resume to justify him making it. Yes, he won an MVP and multiple batting titles. Yes, he’s a .306 lifetime hitter. But Dog has said it before, part of greatness is longevity and Mauer did not have that in the least. The MLB HOF is becoming embarrassing. It should be for all time greats not for sometime greats.
Dude didn’t even have 1K rbis. The Mauer thing seemed weird to me. Are we really going to make like the catcher position is good for nothing offensively
People who say they watched the games and argue against Utley are liars. Best 2B in the league for a long period of time.
It's not as much as Utley getting in as it is much as other 2B who were left out, e.g., Grich, Kent, and Whitaker.
if you don't have 2000 hits, you better be phenomenal for several years
Was Utley phenomenal for long enough?
Borderline guys should not be first ballot HOFers. Gary Carter had more HOF seasons than Mauer, much more power, higher 7 year peak WAR, won a WS and is second all-time in JAWS for catchers. It took him 6 tries to get in. Got less than 50% of the vote his first 3 years of eligibility. Standards for HOF have come way down over time.
Also not fair to guys like Mattingly and Hernandez that unfortunately were on the ballot for a period of years where they actually put in hall of famers and they were left out. If they were around now on these ballots they would be first ballot HOFamers.
What about jeff kent, he only has the most hr's by a 2nd basemen in the history of baseball
Put Dale Murphy in! 2 MVP’s !!
Mike and Dog should have had this argument instead but they’d probably agree with each other that the HOF is getting watered down year after year
Dog is usually a hard grader and the fact Mauer is ok with him is crazy. No way Mauer is a Hall of Famer. Dog just said Mauer was mostly a DH 1B over catcher and he has less than 1000 RBIs.
None of the guys mentioned could touch Albert Belle and he's not in the hall of fame, and it's a joke!
I was gonna type about Belle in here and then I see you beat me to it! His numbers are staggering. Best hitter of the 90's and most feared player in baseball due to how hard he played and his determination. Again look at the numbers no argument can be made otherwise. Also only player in the history of the game to hit 50 HR and 50 doubles in a season.
Mad Dog has argued Belle belongs
@@fortynights1513 Bergman is right there with Belle.
That's because the sports writers didn't like him. It's a popularity contest. Some ballplayers get their asses kissed and others get their assessment kicked
Andrew is biggest snub
There are players who no longer even being considered that are bigger snubs.
Adrian Beltre and Billy Wagner in the HOF is a complete joke. Billy Wagner is in because why he was the first to throw 100? Beltre is just another Cal Ripkin he’s in because he played so many games and didn’t get injured.
Agreed . I've come to the realization it's just a watered down hall now and I have no high expectations for it. Whoever gets in at this point I don't even get upset about it is what it is. Unfortunately.
You don’t know what you’re talking about. Adrian Beltre has 93 career war. I know WAR shouldn’t be the end all be all, but 90 War means you’re a hall of famer.
@@omegacroc2928 WAR is dependent on hypotheticals and probabilities. I'd rather look at what players actually did.
Chris might be nuts but he's correct.
Maybe about Wagner but not about Utley saying Utley wasn’t a good fielder is blasphemous he was a stud in the field
I’m the biggest Utley fan there is but I’d have to agree with Dog if you don’t have 2,000 hits you shouldn’t be a HOF
Didn't even get 1,900. Brian Kenny sure thinks he's a no doubter. Gil Hodges and Tony Oliva got in with under 2000 Hits (Vet's Committee), Andruw Jones was recently tracking at 70%, but most likely won't make it.
@@robertanderson2898It’s definitely tough to do. Tony Oliva made it when the Vet’s considered his accolades and dominance for the first 10 years of his career. One of the best pure hitters of the 60s and early 70s
Utleys a CHAMPION… Mauers not, nor Helton 💯
How do u feel about posey ? He accomplished so much in little time
Well I say Oliva is a notch or two above Utley, even though the huge WAR difference (overrated stat IMO). Utley debuted at 28% I believe. It should go up, but he's just not a HOFer in my book.@@alexlondynn4440
Neither mauer or Helton are hall of famer neither chase utley
100 percent
Watch the games don't worry about stats. Next sentence says utleys batting average lol
Imagine thinking Adrian Beltre and Todd Helton are better players than Manny Ramirez Jeff Kent Gary Sheffield and Alex Rodriguez 🤣
Mad Dog - "You guys with your data!" Mad Dog 2 Seconds Later - "Kent hit .290"
What’s with that intro? Brian Kenny is a joke, no one is being offended.
Chase utley didn’t lose MVPs just because of Pujols he lost them to multiple of his own teammates, Ryan Howard and Jimmy Rollins. In his prime wasn’t even considered the best player on his team
I don't get the crack on Lou Whitaker, he should be in. He should have went in withTrammel.
Many have played in Colorado who haven't hit like Helton. Most doubles ever in one decade. Re: Wagner...Ted Williams hit .200 in the postseason.
So happy for Helton!
Put Albert Belle in
@@TOCC50 And Lance Bergman. And Jim Edmonds.
Can’t wait for kershaw to get to the ballot once his time is done because mad dog is going to use the same excuse kershaw was putrid in the playoffs
I don't know about that. Dog LOVES the Cy Youngs and MVPs, both of which Kershaw has.
My god in what world is Utley a HOFer?? Brian Kenny is a clown
Haha absolutely
Utley is hall of good not even very good. Had a few great years, but fall off was huge. Kenny is a joke. Dog is wrong about several people including Wagner. His separate standard for closers in the World Series is hypocritical when players like Ted Williams were horrible in the post season. He picks and chooses when certain things are important for the hall. Kenny actually made a good point about Eck, Gossage and Rivera who all had colossal failures in the Series. Dog had no comeback just yelled. Can’t believe I actually gave Kenny credit for something. He’s the worst.
@fortynights1513 What do I have to say, you ask? Well, ok, let me say this, if you have to come back to this thread long after our previous debate was closed (and I clearly won that debate), one thing is clear. You are quite obviously a paid agent of Billy Wagner. Perhaps his sports agent. Actually, perhaps you are Billy Wagner himself using fortynights as a username. LOOK, THIS DEBATE IS OVER, AND I WON THE DEBATE. The very fact that you lost the debate has been eating away at you for many days after we finished our exchange, so much so that you could not handle wrestling with the idea that you lost so you had to come back and revisit the debate with more laughably bad arguments based in logical fallacies. You should do some research about logical fallacies, you could learn a ton. [Footnote: one final point, if you are Billy Wagner or Wagner's agent, listen up. I said above in my remarks that you are a very good player. But you choked when the lights were the brightest. Multiple times choked. Choked so much and so bad in the clutch that your manager refused to put you into the game later in the series GAME 7, NINTH INNING, TIE GAME after your multiple chokes, as discussed in this very video. Postseason ERA of not 5.0, not 6.0, not 7.0, not 8.0, not 9.0. POSTSEASON ERA OVER +10.0. Not from 1 or 2 postseason games, or even 3 or 4 postseason games, ERA over +10.0 from 14 POSTSEASON GAMES! Unbelievable! You are a VERY GOOD player, but you choked when the lights were brightest. YOU ARE NOT WORTHY OF THE PRESTIGE OF THE HALL OF FAME. PERIOD.] I know y ou will respond to this, but you need to understand this will be my last message.
Doggie loves to burst ppls bubbles😂
Why are they comparing Helton's road OPS to a group of outfielders? You don't compare an apple to a burrito.
Just compare his home OPS (1.048) with his away OPS (.855).
No way Utley should be in the hall.
Agree
Depends on what the criteria is.
What? Mad Dog had actual NAMES on his Hall of Fame ballot? Names? Why not just let EVERYONE in, doggie?
Helton hit .287 on the road, not .281.
Doggie is right on Wagner. Even with great regular season numbers, the Closer entire career is based almost exclusively on his performance in the playoffs.
Just like Field Goals Kickers in the NFL. There is a reason only a very small amount of Closers led by “Mo” have gotten in. And rightfully so.
Such a small sample size you can’t go by that
@@jakesorrentino7230 Closers are NOT judged by sample size. PERIOD! That's the whole point. The closer either closes in the playoffs or chokes. Billy Wagner is a CHOKER!
@@hosiahjonesWas Billy Wagner good enough in aggregate to make the Hall of Fame with as poor a playoff resume as he had?
I ask because if you are judging their entire career on the playoff performance, then Wagner pitched 903 regular season innings and only 11.2 playoff innings.
Even Mariano Rivera who played longer and pitched in more postseason innings still pitched only 141 playoff innings as opposed to 1,283.2 innings in the regular season.
Not that postseasons aren’t important to factor in, but it just feels silly to me to disregard over 90% of the innings they actually pitched.
@@fortynights1513 yet another sample size argument. Total BS. The playoffs is the only reason for the sport. That's what matters most. Yet you cannot list a single postseason moment of greatness (or even goodness for that matter). The man was not even average in the playoffs, he was trash! Seriously. Trash! Your sample size argument is like getting your homework right but failing the test. Nobody cares about your homework when you UTTERLY FAIL the test.
@@hosiahjonesIf you don’t think his regular season career is good enough to offset his playoff career, then I could see why you wouldn’t favor him.
Personally, I don’t care how trash you are in the playoffs, if you have enough of a regular season career, you belong in my book, and Wagner (as well as Joe Nathan who went one and done) did well enough in aggregate.
If they performed badly in the playoffs, then that’s just not something going for them.
And that goes for all positions in my opinion.
One other question:
What would you say about a closer that never appeared in the playoffs? And would Wagner have a better Hall of Fame case if he put up the same stats for a team that never reached the playoffs?
If you say sample doesn’t matter, and you are going strictly off of postseason performance, then how would you judge someone who has none?
Lee Smith not a HOFer? Dog, you just lost me
Never understood the knock on him
"Poetik elk 41"
Intelligent snow 30
Dirty elk 18
How is Mauer a hall of famer and not Keith Hernandez what a joke Keith has 11 gold gloves batting chips and a MVP what are we doing here smh so mauer gets in for a few batting titles that’s it? He wasn’t a great fielder and wasn’t the best player at his position and Andruw jones isn’t in ? He has 430 home runs and 10 gold gloves only Griffey jr and Willy Mays have done that that a first ballot hr is top 3 ever defensively at CF this is why baseball is trash these writers have to much power and are out of touch
I think you need to take a look at your facts. Joe Mauer was a 3-time GG winner at Catcher, so he was a great defender. He’s the first catcher to ever win a batting title, and he won 3 of them.
You’ve gotta remember, he’s a catcher. That COMPLETELY changes the way he’s looked at.
Also, found this stat “There have been only three players in MLB history with at least 7900 PA who have played at least half of their games at catcher and who have had a career OPS+ higher than 120, and their names are Joe Mauer (124 OPS+), Yogi Berra (125), and Johnny Bench (126).”
Seems pretty significant.
Keith Hernandez was a first baseman who didn’t hit 200 home runs and didn’t have 2200 hits. GG numbers aren’t as significant at a primarily offensive position, and he just doesn’t have good offensive numbers for a 1st baseman in the HOF.
In the end, you’re wrong about him not being a great fielder and not being the best player at his position. I mean, he won an MVP in 2009. That means he was the best player at ANY position that year. There’s no other catcher from 2005-2013 who’s on the same level as Joe.
@@alexlondynn4440 ok and Keith Hernandez has batting title and a mvp also with 2 World Series rings and the greatest defensive 1st baseman EVER mauer isn’t even a top 10 defensive catcher so clearly u don’t know baseball writers vote on people they like 1st baseman is still the infield if u ever watch Keith play which u probably didn’t then u would understand if u are the greatest at something with rings and a mvp that’s a hall of famer Ozzie smith is a hall of famer his offensive was TERRIBLE but he is the greatest defensive SS ever same principle and he has no MVPs no silver slugger sad doesn’t have 3000 hits but baseball has lower standards now to let Maurer and Helton in so clearly u are wrong
@@alexlondynn4440 3 time gold glove award is great are u kidding me? 3 out of 14 years is great what planet are u on and he played DH u forget he was in the AL he didn’t play his whole career at catcher u can’t be a great defender with only 3 gold gloves cut it out u don’t know the meaning of great he was GOOD not close to great
Joe Mauer is no Hall Of Famer at all.
Absolutely agree
mad dog needs to retire, this guy does not know ball
Mad dog needs a new nickname like should have retired dog