I’m so intrigued by these battles going on in the background, I usually just line my guys up with my slingers/ archer in the back and let em have it haha
This makes historical sense as archers are more deadly for most of human history. Slingers had more options at killing heavy armor with cheap ammo, but takes a lot more time
@@GaryQuinn-i3e all the data is stored in files, which u can access using a software called packfilemamager. But I think this data is even just in the game if u hover over the damage, it splits between AP and normal, so the rest is just math. Glad u enjoyed!
Iberian Factions: Vanilla producers have forsaken us! Despite archeology, painting in caves showing how the bow was an important use in warfare in the Tribes of the Iberian Peninsula
Yo Alphablue the modder here, I think this is part of what you are trying to say, even if they aren't actually getting the kills archers make enemy units combat ineffective faster than slingers, which isn't technically "cost effectiveness" but helps the rest of your army preform better, a sort of "if used correctly your whole army is more cost effective not just the archers". Also while this is not just about missiles, and more just damage in general, people think about the actual number way too much. With how armor and missile block chance (for ranged units) or melee defense (for melee) works the amount of hits needed to connect to kill/seriously damage (so anything else can finish it) a model is way more important than the exact numbers of damage. I am going to forget the math (did it a long time ago) but most infantry in the game (75% ish) has between 45-55 health so regardless of ap anything with 60-65 armor or less drops a model (or has literally
thanks, yeah, this is something I hadn't thought about much before this video, but the kill over-inflation for slingers is absurd. Knowing the TTK for units is also a big thing, but it's quite hard to calculate and remember for everything so u kinda gotta go off of generalizations as you've said here.
@@miles_garcia Yeah knowing all the stats is not gonna win you games, but understanding sort of loose rules of thumb for like 40+ damage kills models faster on almost any unit, and stuff like ap is not that important until you in the 70+ armor rating (not that it hurts).
@@howitzer551 yeah, for interest, i ran a quick test-- how much dmg will an archer vs slinger do after armor is accounted for: 40 dmg arch outdamage 29 dmg slingers on avg up to ~35 armor 40 dmg arch outdamage 23 dmg slingers up to ~85 armor 35 dmg arch outdamage 29 dmg sling up to ~20 armor 35 dmg arch outdamage 23 dmg sling up to ~60 armor so yeah the elite slingers are obviously cracked cuz 8AP is insane, but everywhere else the archers get a lot of value damage wise, with the other benefits i mentioned in the video for mobility etc and if ur getting good shots where shields aren't in play, 35 armor, for example, isn't actually hard to find on many units.
@@miles_garcia Yeah people forget how much of armor is the shield the 3 most common shields in the game (celtic oval and thureos) all give 30-35 armor which is great till you get shot from the unshielded side and most mid tier units are going down to 30-40 base armor (I believe you are right 35 is the average base armor for grand campaign). Also side note archers are just devastating to heavy (and very/super heavy) cav, the ones too slow to dodge arrow volley consistently, compared to slingers. With the high hp per model even elite slingers take a bit to chip them down where as 90 arrows off the 40 damage bows hitting most of the front 2ish rows of a 60 man/horse unit will drop models or at least savage their hp on the first volley and that is without including something like precision shot on Syrians.
@@howitzer551 ye i didnt even go into the fact that only archers have damage boosting abilities (heavy shot + prec shot) also its just so easy to dodge slinger vollies with cav because they just take so long to shoot that often the cav can just get out of range. I can't count how many times in mid-games archers have just been able to get clutch fast vollies on cav that can just devastate them. It's extremely valuable.
You forgot to mention how Archers completely dominate slingers in siege battles. Archers have much greater arc of fire while slingers are almost completely useless as their line of sight are constantly blocked.
you are mostly right. the one time slings than fight archers is when they are on the walls shooting at bowmen outside the walls. yes you shouldn't let that happen, but in some cases like the map, or how they have placed their men. slings can kill bowmen really fast. never think slingers cant kill, but it seems like you already know how to stop them. also put can put them outside the walls to shoot at bowmen outside the walls giving them line of sight
I think it's rarely a value trade though. If both are deployed in long lines the archers have to use almost their entire clip to kill slingers of similar quality. Can still be worthwhile depending on the rest of ur army tho
don´t use archers vs slingers . a.) 2 cheap slinger units can criple your elite archer unit (syrians or cretans) (and they will still have ammo left to do AP damage to your high value units) or b.) you waste almost all your ammo trying to kill some 270-380 denari cheap slingers ... neither is good for your archers . and if you have cheap archers their morale is too low and they will break fighting enemy slingers ... archers should be used vs low armour shock infantry or elite targets (preferably shooting into non shield side of the enemy unit if possible) .
Cavalry is the bane of missile/ranged units. Just count the average of all situations where each type has to fare against cavalry charges. Archers are better protected in most cases. And again, archers can have a chance of pacifying light cavalry as well as missile cavalry overtime.
@@arcomegis9999 if cavalry get into missiles it’s over for them regardless of unit, but archers have better utility at damaging cavalry because of faster shooting speed. Sure there are some archers that can kinda stand up to light cav or javcav but that’s a very minor point as it’s only a few units and they still have no defense against medium or heavier cav
@@toxicsaint3545 they’re ok in some situations in siege but yeah this video doesn’t rlly pertain to siege at all But there are loads of situations in land where you’re able to get value with slingers anyway ofc
@ not really they can be good but essentially when your defending and have lost som ground as you always(unless you fight to death over the walls) you won’t have any space to put your slinger where they can both shoot the enemy and won’t hit your units in the back. The ofc some maps have a small hills where you can put them but that’s the exception to the general rule
Woke up and was watching this video, this whole time I thought it was your webcam on the top left
lmaoooo i wish i was built like that
I’m so intrigued by these battles going on in the background, I usually just line my guys up with my slingers/ archer in the back and let em have it haha
haha these are just random tournament games i had saved, ive got more on my channel usually witth commentary if you're interested!
Impressive amount of research and analysis there.
thanks!
Slingers take more manoeuvring to get into a good enough position to do damage
This makes historical sense as archers are more deadly for most of human history. Slingers had more options at killing heavy armor with cheap ammo, but takes a lot more time
yeah r2 has by far the deadliest slingers of any of the historical titles as well cuz the AP is so busted on them
nice work, my man!
How did you get your damage data for your graphs? Love it
@@GaryQuinn-i3e all the data is stored in files, which u can access using a software called packfilemamager. But I think this data is even just in the game if u hover over the damage, it splits between AP and normal, so the rest is just math. Glad u enjoyed!
Iberian Factions: Vanilla producers have forsaken us! Despite archeology, painting in caves showing how the bow was an important use in warfare in the Tribes of the Iberian Peninsula
yea its a bit ridiculous when a faction has only slingers like seriously u dont know what a bow is
Wow a lot of Quick maths, very interesting!
Yo Alphablue the modder here, I think this is part of what you are trying to say, even if they aren't actually getting the kills archers make enemy units combat ineffective faster than slingers, which isn't technically "cost effectiveness" but helps the rest of your army preform better, a sort of "if used correctly your whole army is more cost effective not just the archers". Also while this is not just about missiles, and more just damage in general, people think about the actual number way too much. With how armor and missile block chance (for ranged units) or melee defense (for melee) works the amount of hits needed to connect to kill/seriously damage (so anything else can finish it) a model is way more important than the exact numbers of damage. I am going to forget the math (did it a long time ago) but most infantry in the game (75% ish) has between 45-55 health so regardless of ap anything with 60-65 armor or less drops a model (or has literally
thanks, yeah, this is something I hadn't thought about much before this video, but the kill over-inflation for slingers is absurd. Knowing the TTK for units is also a big thing, but it's quite hard to calculate and remember for everything so u kinda gotta go off of generalizations as you've said here.
@@miles_garcia Yeah knowing all the stats is not gonna win you games, but understanding sort of loose rules of thumb for like 40+ damage kills models faster on almost any unit, and stuff like ap is not that important until you in the 70+ armor rating (not that it hurts).
@@howitzer551 yeah, for interest, i ran a quick test-- how much dmg will an archer vs slinger do after armor is accounted for:
40 dmg arch outdamage 29 dmg slingers on avg up to ~35 armor
40 dmg arch outdamage 23 dmg slingers up to ~85 armor
35 dmg arch outdamage 29 dmg sling up to ~20 armor
35 dmg arch outdamage 23 dmg sling up to ~60 armor
so yeah the elite slingers are obviously cracked cuz 8AP is insane, but everywhere else the archers get a lot of value damage wise, with the other benefits i mentioned in the video for mobility etc
and if ur getting good shots where shields aren't in play, 35 armor, for example, isn't actually hard to find on many units.
@@miles_garcia Yeah people forget how much of armor is the shield the 3 most common shields in the game (celtic oval and thureos) all give 30-35 armor which is great till you get shot from the unshielded side and most mid tier units are going down to 30-40 base armor (I believe you are right 35 is the average base armor for grand campaign). Also side note archers are just devastating to heavy (and very/super heavy) cav, the ones too slow to dodge arrow volley consistently, compared to slingers. With the high hp per model even elite slingers take a bit to chip them down where as 90 arrows off the 40 damage bows hitting most of the front 2ish rows of a 60 man/horse unit will drop models or at least savage their hp on the first volley and that is without including something like precision shot on Syrians.
@@howitzer551 ye i didnt even go into the fact that only archers have damage boosting abilities (heavy shot + prec shot)
also its just so easy to dodge slinger vollies with cav because they just take so long to shoot that often the cav can just get out of range. I can't count how many times in mid-games archers have just been able to get clutch fast vollies on cav that can just devastate them. It's extremely valuable.
Very informative video 😊
thanks, glad to hear it
You forgot to mention how Archers completely dominate slingers in siege battles. Archers have much greater arc of fire while slingers are almost completely useless as their line of sight are constantly blocked.
thats true but idc about siege really :D
you are mostly right. the one time slings than fight archers is when they are on the walls shooting at bowmen outside the walls. yes you shouldn't let that happen, but in some cases like the map, or how they have placed their men. slings can kill bowmen really fast. never think slingers cant kill, but it seems like you already know how to stop them. also put can put them outside the walls to shoot at bowmen outside the walls giving them line of sight
great video thx for all the content 👍
God, these discord notifications in the background are annoying.
ya probably should have closed it
My main issue with archer is that they are more farther in the build tree but are only usefull against lower tech low armor troop.
in campaign maybe, but im mainly focusing on MP battles where all units are available :)
I use archers and I use them just great against slingers
I think it's rarely a value trade though. If both are deployed in long lines the archers have to use almost their entire clip to kill slingers of similar quality. Can still be worthwhile depending on the rest of ur army tho
don´t use archers vs slingers .
a.) 2 cheap slinger units can criple your elite archer unit (syrians or cretans) (and they will still have ammo left to do AP damage to your high value units) or
b.) you waste almost all your ammo trying to kill some 270-380 denari cheap slingers ...
neither is good for your archers .
and if you have cheap archers their morale is too low and they will break fighting enemy slingers ...
archers should be used vs low armour shock infantry or elite targets (preferably shooting into non shield side of the enemy unit if possible) .
Cavalry is the bane of missile/ranged units. Just count the average of all situations where each type has to fare against cavalry charges. Archers are better protected in most cases. And again, archers can have a chance of pacifying light cavalry as well as missile cavalry overtime.
@@arcomegis9999 if cavalry get into missiles it’s over for them regardless of unit, but archers have better utility at damaging cavalry because of faster shooting speed. Sure there are some archers that can kinda stand up to light cav or javcav but that’s a very minor point as it’s only a few units and they still have no defense against medium or heavier cav
Jav
nice vid
Which slingers have 60% missile block chance?
@@philkim8297 Germanic slingers are the only ones. 50% is quite common tho, main ones being eastern slingers and Illyrian slave slingers
Archers arc their fire slingers can’t that’s all I need to know
So slinger are better in slow battles like sieges, but then you realise slingers aren’t good in most sieges because they have a terrible fire arch
@@toxicsaint3545 they’re ok in some situations in siege but yeah this video doesn’t rlly pertain to siege at all
But there are loads of situations in land where you’re able to get value with slingers anyway ofc
@ not really they can be good but essentially when your defending and have lost som ground as you always(unless you fight to death over the walls) you won’t have any space to put your slinger where they can both shoot the enemy and won’t hit your units in the back. The ofc some maps have a small hills where you can put them but that’s the exception to the general rule
Archers + Infantry + Cavalry + Navy + Walls + Elephants + Dogs + Gods VS Slingers ...............Slingers Win!!.........Fatality......worst battle mechanics ever
Slingers are just tecnically the beta version of archers. Cheaper, slower, less range, no special moves, no fire shots. You’re welcome
@@felipe_cover well they have the same range and more AP basically (except the cheap ones)
my god, turn off your discord while recording.
Woah a script
that or 2 hour ramble, your pick! :D
Lol this game's multy is so bad